Tony Shaw on Rugby Toughness & Culture: “If You Want Comfort, You’re in the Wrong Game”

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Culture isn’t a poster on the wall. It’s what your team does when nobody is watching, when someone gets dropped, and when the trip gets uncomfortable. I’m joined by Wallabies legend and former Rugby Australia president Tony Shaw to get practical about what team culture really is, how leadership actually works inside a squad, and why “how we do things around here” beats any fancy mission statement.

We dig into the old touring era and why long tours built a kind of camaraderie that modern schedules struggle to recreate. Tony shares stories that are hilarious on the surface, but they carry real coaching lessons about standards, accountability, and how quickly a group can fracture if trust disappears. We also talk selection. Tony makes the case for captain involvement and clear communication, because silence creates problems and honest feedback, delivered well, keeps teams together.

We finish with a grounded look at Australian rugby today: grassroots participation, the rise of women’s rugby and sevens, and why Tony believes the game is in better shape than the doomers admit. If you care about rugby leadership, coaching culture, and building teams players actually want to be part of, this one will stick with you. Subscribe, share this with a coach or captain you rate, and leave a review with the one culture habit you think matters most.

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Transcript

Welcome And Tony Shaw

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring. I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Tony Shaw. Tony was one of the great Australian captains playing 36 games for Australia in a remarkable 10-year career from 1973 to 1982. He is known as an uncompromising, take-no prisoner type player and an outstanding and rucker and mauler, which sadly is not something that's spoken about much these days. Fellow players have had the rare said he has had the rare balance between toughness and technical brilliance, which separate the good from the great player. He is a former student at St. Joseph's College and Gregory Tellus, terrace, as well as a former president of Rugby Australia. He has had a lifetime in the game, including 2012, an induction to the Wallaby Hall of Fame. He has a reminder of what matters in this game. Tony Shaw, welcome to the Coaching Culture Podcast. Delighted to be here, Ben. Thanks, mate. It's absolutely a pleasure to have you from your home in Brizzy. Great, great to see. Tony, if we start off, what is how do you define culture?

Rugby’s Changing Landscape In Australia

SPEAKER_01 2:18

How do I define culture? I don't I don't think there's a there's a sentence or um it's it's probably a group of phrases and a group of words that sort of define it. I mean, I don't I don't think you can commoditize it into a you know a sentence or two. It's it there's so much that goes into it, you know, from um, you know, attitude, I think is is the biggest thing, and that's the most important thing for me. You know, teamwork, setting the standards, trying to achieve better and better, you know, behavior, um, you know, trying to be the best. Um, but you know, it's something that you can't teach people. You know, it's like it's it's a pretty simple definition of sort of like, I think like this is this is how we do things around here. It's as simple as that, you know. Um and I think it's something that you can't coach, you can't, you know, you can work at developing it, but I think it's got to be nurtured. It's something that's heavily involved in the leadership of the team, you know, and and um caring about people and getting people involved and understanding what you're trying to achieve and understanding why you're making certain decisions with certain selections. I think it's worth, you know, um sharing that with the team. And I'm a big one on inclusion and including people in in those sort of decisions. So that's that's you know, um, and trust, you know, um, I think all those sort of words, you know, you mold them together to have a definition of culture, I think, you know. Yeah. Um, and it's not just about, you know, great players or or great football rugby players. Um, you know, it's that will to win, we'll we'll that will be constantly improving, getting better. And if you're winning to keep winning, um, you know, it's character, it's about the character of the players. And the and the organization. It's not just the players, it's the whole organization as such, whether that's a school or whether that's a a club. You know, I play for I played for brothers and brothers who've got a you know really strong culture. Um and and it it oozes through all of the grades from you know the five cult sides to the the five grade sides to the, you know, to the to the juniors, um to some extent the juniors that and that's evolving, but you know, it's it's um and also the history of the game, that you recognise the history of the game. And um, you know, when you get an opportunity to talk to the players, just say sometimes it's you know, you might get an introduction like you've given me, and it's like, well, it's not about me, it's it's it's about you. You're the club. You know, I there might have been some history that you know Paul McLean, me, others, and a whole lot of others have have have done well at the club, but it's it's uh you are the club, you're the living, breathing, you know, culture of the club. So that's that's as I see it. It's you know, have respect for the history and uh uh those who've gone before, but it's in the lap of the current players as far as I'm concerned.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

Do you think you you're you've obviously got a huge history in the game, playing for a long, long time, and also still involved in Queensland uh president, the president of Rugby Australia. You've seen a lot. Has how has it evolved the culture of the game over the over your lifespan?

SPEAKER_01 5:38

Um I don't know about the culture of the game. I think you know the culture of the more of the teams I've been in, whether that's you know, Brothers or Queensland or the Wallabies, that's more what I've been associated with rather than the the overall culture of you know the amorphous blob of sort of rugby Australia and what they cover. I'm not you know, not I'm not involved in that. It's up to the you know, we've made some poor decisions over the time, I think. Um we've got rugby league and we've got AFL, you know, dominating us to some extent. Um But you know, I think the positives we've we've rugby Australia has identified that, and they're bringing there's more women playing, there's more kids playing, you know, journeys coming through, you know, trying to get the journeys into seniors. They're working really hard on getting getting um um improving the participation, you know, and engagement, whether that's you know, sevens or fifteens or um, you know, I think it's across the board.

Brothers Club Culture In Action

SPEAKER_00 6:43

Yeah. Well, certainly when we look look at the brothers rugby club, that's still going strong today, having been out there like that. Is a proud club which which culture of that club is is still you know, James O'Connor was talking about like how he went back to play for that club because he just he just loved it, just loved the environment. We walked back in and just everything about it was why he played rugby. Um it's it's certain places seem to encapture you know that that lovely feeling when you walk into it, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:13

Well, James did love coming back. You know, you'd you'd catch him before a game and he had the brothers through ears and said, Well, great to see you in the butcher stripe, he said, I love it, you know. And then Harry Wilson, when Harry gets a chance to come back and play, not so often these days as captain, but you know, he'd he's sort of beaten the chest. He's a you know uh showing his always wearing wearing his heart on his shoulder. And then Tanyela Tito, when he played for us, Tanyela would come down early, and when he would when he had um wallaby commitments and that, so I think he'd come and run the line in fourth grade, you know. Like it's it's great. They they want to be engaged, they want to be involved. And another example of working bee last year, you know, we probably had 40 or 50 down there at the club. Um, Fraser was down there, Harry was down there, you know, there was three or four of them down there. I did bug it all, but you know they had the interest to come down and be part of it, you know, which speaks volumes. You know, they're a but you know, they won't get their hands done, they're probably down for a few beers afterwards, but you know, they were there and and wanted to be part of it, and and that's part of the culture of the you know, just oozes it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

How do you how do you get people to do that, do you reckon? How do clubs some clubs do that so well? Is it is it can you define it?

unknown 9:15

No.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

No, no, I can't. No, and and and there was no phone calls made to hey hey boys, be great if you'd come down. Um, you know, um, no, they just turned up, you know, knew the knew the knew it was on and they just turned up and want to be part of it, wanted to be involved. It's just the way you do things, yeah. That's right, the way we do things around here. Pretty simple little phrase, isn't it?

Fast-Track Selection In The Amateur Era

SPEAKER_00 9:40

Yeah, it's a good little phrase. It's a really good look good little phase. Um it's a prowl club, and so so your journey was really good there, wasn't it? You made as a 20-year-old uh uh into brothers, which is pumping back in in your day, and then went on to play for Queens. And what was that transition like for you as a player?

SPEAKER_01 9:58

I played um no, there wasn't there was no pathways in those days. Um nool, you know, they went tapping anyone on the shoulder. Uh, there was no academy brothers have got an academy for the men and the women now, which is wonderful bringing younger players through and um improving their skills and their attitude. Um but I um just went to Brothers after school, there were no connections, played two years nineteen and then played first grade and played for Queensland that year, played for the Wallabies that year. Um so it was no transition. It was just if you're old enough, you're good enough almost, you know. If you're good enough, you're old enough. That's you know the bottom line, I think. And you know, I was fortunate to go on at 20 on at at um first year, first grade to go on a tour to the UK, to England and Wales with the Wallabies and play two tests. And the first test at Carter Farms Park, which was absolutely awesome. You know, that was eye-opening. Mmm. Play great experience as you as a young man, hey. It was that long ago we were singing God Save the Queen. And that wasn't very emotional, I gotta tell you, before the game. But and yet, you know, land of our fathers, when the Welch start singing, um, you know, tears streaming down the face at their their anthem, not ours, you know. Very different era.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Very different era, right? It's very different. Do you think what's changed, you reckon? Wha wh why is that sort of that emotion, that sort of passion not as prevalent in today's game? Any thoughts?

Long Tours That Forge Camaraderie

SPEAKER_01 11:33

Oh, yeah, I think there is. I think there's just as much passion. I don't think players have lost passion to play for the wallabies or um that was again, that was my first test. I don't I didn't I didn't cry out every but every uh every game. Um but just that atmosphere at Wales and that you know the the the the crowd singing and watering from one side to the other and um yeah and you walk out like what's very different I think is is the tours. Our tours on those days, that was a six-week tour, just playing two tests, but um we play we had two long tours to the UK for three and a half months. So you play 23 matches, played, you know, um Wednesday, Saturday, Wednesday, Saturday until you come to a test, and you play Tuesday, Saturday, you'd move um lodgings every three to seven days. Um and that built you know great camaraderie in the team, you know, three and a half months on two with your best mates playing for your country, can't beat that.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

I'd imagine you'd you'd know people pretty well when you when you play twice a week for three and a half months. That is a long time to be on tour with anybody, right?

unknown 12:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

Yeah, and being with you know, guys who are get coming through injuries, trying to get back to playing, going through physio, um, you know, you you' your your best mates, but you're also vying with each other to to take their spot. Well they want your spot. So, you know, training becomes fairly intense, as you can imagine. You know, you've got you you've got um um when you've got contact training, which is good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:10

It's fun, yeah, yeah. But what but but that those tours in those days would have been fantastic fun, right? Like, not like you'd you're just on tour with your mates doing that. Like with good life, life building stuff.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. It was it's about you know, people understand it, you learn so much from that, I think. And we we met the co you know, we had an audience at the Buckingham Palace with Charles and Anne and the Queen, and you know, um lots of stories about that one. Um one about Ray Price, particularly, right Pricey was obviously rugby before he went to league. About you know, being on the bus, Pricey walks in, and there's a bit of a clangle, a clay, clanging of and you're thinking, you know, like cutlery clang, you know, you think Pricey, you didn't. He said bugger, stuff him, they've got plenty of money. He's got um knives and forks and things with the crest of the of the queen, a couple of cups and saucers in the pocket.

SPEAKER_02 14:12

Yeah, wasn't wasn't great for it.

SPEAKER_01 14:15

Just fleece. This pricey stuff from from Buckingham Palace, you know. And pricey had about he had a hernia on to her. Um, and uh I roomed with him quite a bit, and that's always an experience because all he wanted to do was play, let him play, and and he was a it was a liaison officer's nightmare when he wasn't playing. Um but that was fun. But you're you're rooming with guys, different guys the whole time that just threw everybody around. Um yeah, so you get to know people really, really well, and yourself a lot better, I think, as well, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Stuart McDougal that got dropped late in the tour, and uh did this is about five games out from the end of the tour, and he's a funny bloke, and then at the back of the bus he'd be saying, Ross Turnbull, who was the manager, would announce the team at the front of the bus when we went to the training after the previous match. Asked the bus driver to leave, was a bit of a ritual. Here's the team, and Stewart would be the back. McDougal, MAC, small D. Remember me? McDougal announced the side he wasn't in it. So this happened for about five games in a row. At the end, before the last um team was announced, on the side of the bus as we've walked in, there's a little sign stuck, little post bigger than a post-it note, but stuck to the bus. For sale, one pair of size 10 caps, rugby boots, um, hardly used. Um, see Stew in room four, five, six. And but he know he he could have really um affected the whole culture of the team and the whole feeling of the team if he got in the shits and you know cracked it. But he hadn't, he just carried on as if nothing had happened. He's the funniest guy on tour, which you know was awesome. You know, disappointing for him, but he made it funny and you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

I guess to I guess t touring would actually highlight um how strong the culture is, right? Because it's everything's magnified on tour. You're living in the same quarters, you're sharing everything. Um so little things like that, you know, your disappointment, you have to quickly tuck it away if you're if the culture's such because otherwise.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

When you're touring the UK, things are efficient and things work, but in France, they deliberately stuffed you around. The buses wouldn't turn up and it is okay, not to other, you know. They'd be saying it will be ten minutes, it will be another 30 minutes. And you're frustrated about it, but you just gotta let it go and say, This we're living, this is how it works in France. You know, the and the f and the liaison officer who couldn't speak English. That's pretty handy as a liaison officer, until the aftermatch function at the last test match, where he spoke in perfect English, but he'd been sitting in strategy meetings and all that sort of thing with the team, us thinking he hadn't couldn't speak English. He had a little interesting trip to the balcony, you put a couple of us holding his legs over the balcony at the end of that trip. Those are the days before there's no cameras filming those panels of Rugby Australia, I'll tell you now.

Leadership That Grows From Within

SPEAKER_00 17:33

How did your leaders um get that culture to be to be like that as you uh were were going? Was uh I I know you said it's hard to teach this stuff, but is it just was it just something that everyone knew inherently, or is just the way it was back then? Like, did people have the coaches have to come and sit you down and go, okay, fellas, here's how I want it to roll, and this is what I want you to buy into and this is how it is, or was it a bit more organic than that? It just sort of evolved. I think it evolves from the team and the leadership of the team.

SPEAKER_02 18:07

You know, I don't um Yeah, I think it comes comes from within the team.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

Clinically, the you know, the coach and the and the manager um and that's different as well because it's coach and manager and and maybe a physio, that was it. That's it, that's the touring, that's the management. You haven't got, you know, um stream of physios and you know, mental health guys, three people running the tour. So we had Judy Boys, we'd had a major job in organizing the team, getting the guys organized. And that was you know, that was I was gonna say I was about to say that was fun, but it wasn't fun because you had to hunt everybody up and you had to be up the earliest and make sure everything was on track. It was a bit of fun, I suppose. Yeah, we we made the best of it, but it was a chore, it was a tour, okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

I guess you all have to muck in a lot more back in those days, but just three people looking after a three and a half month tour. It really is uh a community effort, isn't it? Where you you've got to be a little bit more.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

And one and one liaison, one one sort of liaison baggage man, if you like, came with us, that was it. Um so yeah, we all had to chip in, we'll have to help out and do whatever we can do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

What would you bring like through? Yeah, I know you run a number of tours at the moment, but what would you bring back on a tour from those days, which you think would be well received on a tour these days? You got any little things that you think uh traverse the the period of time?

SPEAKER_01 19:40

Um We enjoyed it. I mean, we made the best of it if we, you know, whether it was a wasn't a golfer, but those who are golfers, if we were somewhere near a great golf course, they'd they'd make the benefit the best of going to the great golf courses. If there's sites to be seen, we'd we'd be seeing them um wherever possible. So, you know, you've got to get out and and and do whatever you can do in in in a country you haven't been to, typically before and you know, places you haven't been. So you've got to get out and see things make the best of it. I think that's part and parcel of it. But we'd had fun. We'd dress up parties, we'd birthday parties for guys. We had a lot of fun. We had a lot of fun. What was your favourite dress? Together. Toger nights.

unknown 20:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:26

They're always classic nights, they're always debauched evenings. Yeah. I can imagine. Post-match. The post-match functions were formal events. Um, and we'd have dinner every night after a test match, and you know, we'd have the town crier there, my lords, ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, praise silence for Mr. You know, Ross Turnbull, manager of the Australian rugby football touring union, and Ross would get up and then he'd speak, and then they'd hit the gable again and go, Well, you know, we'd like to present to you so-and-so, so-and-so, the manager of the rugby, the English rugby union. Very formal, but then we'd go and have a few beers with the guys. So, you know, um they were it was particularly in the UK, it was very formal, a lot of those events, which was great. Yeah. But we'd go and then we'd go to training and there'd always be the women's auxiliary having, you know, morning tea set up for us and to coffee and scones and that sort of stuff. So, you know, it was they looked after us well. But I love it. I love it. And then at the end of it, like it's like we're Amber, we got what did we get? Six pounds a day, four pound a day, I think. Um, and um at the end of the tour got a um Waterford Crystal um pitcher with, you know, Wallaby Two or UK, whatever year, you know, and they'd make millions out of it, you know. Particularly the long tours, the three and a half month tours, they'd make absolute millions and millions because every grand was packed. Every grand. And we played some great footy in that in that um uh 81-82 tour, 67 tries to nine against in 23 matches, you know. Um but we the following two was the grand slam which Slacky captained, but we um we only won one test because we weren't kicking the goals. I mean Paul McLean, O'Connor, uh Ella, Gould, um who else, Hawker, whoever, we're all tow kickers and we plus also the set players in the wet conditions and the and the English conditions didn't quite suit us, but when those teams came to Australia, we typically beat them in Australia.

Physicality Effort And The Comfort Trap

SPEAKER_00 22:33

So um makes a difference, right? Does make a difference. Well, mate, when you're talking about your own the playing the game, you you have a reputation for being a pretty pretty abrasive tough player, um, to put it mildly. Um mate, is that was that done by design or were you always just just that was your big physical like you just enjoyed the physicality of the game and and played tough? Is is that what you played tough?

SPEAKER_02 23:03

That's that's you know it's a physical game, like you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:17

I have a few quotes from um you here, which just like this kind of concept of quote from you if you're looking for comfort, you're in the wrong game. Is that is that kind of a statement that sounds like like you and around that sort of the game should be tough, do you reckon? Comfort doesn't fit in anywhere. Does it?

unknown 23:37

No.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

Well depends what you it depends how you define comfort. If your comfort is the the dark, the dark at the bottom of a ruck, if you and that's that's the caveat you love, then maybe that's alright. If 17 sprig marks down the back is your ideal of uh comfort, then m potentially it is. It's a physical game.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

It's a game of, you know, centimeters and you know Yeah. Physicality. It's a physical game. Always has been, always will be.

SPEAKER_00 24:07

What do you think it teaches what what do you think it teaches players that um that that part of the game, that that physical distress part of the game?

SPEAKER_02 24:15

I think it's you're born with it, it's in eight, you know. Mostly. Where would it have come from for you? From within you.

SPEAKER_00 24:33

Because it's always the bane of a coach's existence sometimes when sometimes you you have players with all the talent in the world, but they just don't have that that grit, that kind of in in as and you just you you can't really teach it eight. But you kind of have to do it. Sorry, no. Yeah, you just like yeah, what what would you suggest to to coaches around that side of things? That's part of the game where you were so good.

SPEAKER_01 25:00

And the touch shows just couldn't report, there was no no eye on the sky, there's no, you know, um, so that that all that all helped. Um I just think you know, training, you know, you you you train as if you you know how you want to play. So you've you've got to have a lot of physicality around training, and it's got to be always you know, always, and when I did a bit of coaching after I finished, we involved in the Australian 20s for a little while, coached Captain Coached Brothers. Um, it's just you know, innate in people, but you've got to the physical drills and what you're doing at training has got to be physical, it's got to be contact, it's got to, you know, emulate what you've got you're gonna have on the paddock and you know, the fence in your face, and you know.

SPEAKER_00 25:44

Um yeah. It's it's the part of the game where where it draw that's the bit that draws people in because it's a sport like no other, isn't it? Where you you've actually got that sort of um that physical hurt which can lead to emotional hurts. I I love watching young kids play, and you can see the ones that are gonna go well in the game because they take a hit or they get knocked down and then they leap straight back up and they go straight at it again because they loved that feeling. They have no problem about the ego or the emotional hurt from getting knocked down or bumped off or hitting hard in the tackle. They actually it's almost like a lot of young players um love that. They shy from it.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

But those who don't, I think they they learn, they, you know, realize that it's it's a physical game, they've got to be on the ascendancy, they've got to take, you know, territory and um, you know, attack the ball, attack the player, you know.

SPEAKER_00 26:41

So I think I think they learn it.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

Yeah. Do you think there's a danger in trying to And there's wingers, there's wingers who don't have any physicality and don't you know typically.

SPEAKER_00 26:54

That's that's changing though, right? There's the the work rate of some of the wingers these days to get stuck in and pick and go and stuff is is definitely a change.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

You take Dan Gunda in the in the red side of the moment, he's involved in everything, wants to pick up the ball at the back of Runks, take people on. It's great to see. And you know, and and all these um a lot of the wingers now um hitting breakdowns. You know, if there's a Santa Band court, they're f if they're first there, they know to go in and commit, so they're a lot more involved than what they used to be. Yeah, which is good to see.

SPEAKER_00 27:26

It's fabulous. Really good.

SPEAKER_01 27:27

Some really good skills, yeah.

unknown 27:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:29

Do you think there's a danger in trying to make players too comfortable in the game?

SPEAKER_02 27:35

Again, that comfort word, I don't relate to it.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

Sorry. I mean I've got to be comfortable in in in um and confident in the skills that they've got, the plan that the coaches set out, you know.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

Um but comfort I don't know, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

If you if you if you're comfortable, you you're in the seconds, you know, not I don't think you're in the top side somehow. When you're looking at evaluating people, you know, you've got someone who's comfortable playing the way he's playing and he's just doing enough. He's not, you know, I'd be I'd be looking at someone else who's got, you know, um ten out of ten for nine out of ten for um physicality and aggression versus you know and and with six out of ten for for skill. You know, but but you're always gonna need a Campisi, so or someone like that. So that's another cot that's a contrary view, you know, that you've got someone like Campo, you think he's gonna score four, but he's gonna let a couple in, you go like we need him. Um that's contrary to my argument, but it's it's that's reality, that's the game, you know. But these days wingers are getting caught out, they need to defend, they need to be good on defence, they need to, you know, hit rocks and mules and um show some physicality, be physical.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

Yeah, uh mate, absolutely. What do you what are you talking about, the effort areas? Because like some some some of the old school values from from when you played, um they're really big on things like um work ethic over shortcuts, pride in those effort areas, they're still the same, but how how important are they uh in rugby?

SPEAKER_01 29:30

Pride? What did you say?

SPEAKER_00 29:31

Pride and effort and yeah, that those sort of ones, those pride, yeah, yeah, effort areas, they're they're huge in the game, right?

Rucking Mauling And Contact Evolution

SPEAKER_01 29:39

Yeah. Yeah. I mean could it be 11 out of 10 for effort and and and and wanting to um achieve, and whether that's you know being a front rower and you're gonna play, you're not gonna be seen in the game. Well, r front rowers are more and more these days, but you you're gonna have have your skills, have your ability to, you know, hookers, basic skills, you know, whatever else you do, like a hooker, scrums and line outs, and if you're able to do anything different apart from take the ball off back of um Moores and and and and uh rolling moores, um it's a bonus. If you get someone who's good in the open and got great hands, uh that's that counts, but it's to me it counts less because you want them to do their core um skills in that for that role. And they've got to have nine out of ten for that, and then whatever else they've got is a bonus, I think. That's how I would look at it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:40

And and where would rucking sit for you? Because that that that when I when I do some uh when I when I look you up, mate, it says rucking was one of your specialities. For those that don't know, rucking isn't in the game anymore, but it's the process by which uh rucks are self-governed by a set of sprigs where you can stand on anybody on the wrong side. And some some people, probably yourself, were experts at that art of the game.

SPEAKER_01 31:04

Now that is to secure the ball, only to secure possession.

SPEAKER_00 31:11

But how did you master that art, the art of rucking?

SPEAKER_01 31:14

How do you do that well? Well, I I think you just gotta well, rucking wasn't an art, I don't think. It was just the ability to hit a a a ruck or a maul hard, and in the process of doing that, you're going over the top of players, the ball's there, obviously, that's what you're after. Um, but I you know, yeah, there was rucking, but my skills was also mauling, you know, there was a lot more mauling the ball in those days, stealing the ball from opposition, you know, mauling. Um, you know, the ball was up off the ground a lot more than what it is now. There's a lot of um so much more play on the ground, you know, in in the contact situation.

SPEAKER_02 31:54

Um in our day it was more vertical, you know. Yeah, interesting. That's a fascinating shift for this game, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 32:03

Much, much more. I mean, these days obviously you go into a tackle, if you're held up, you know, referee will say held, he'll go to the ground. It it's and very little very few times halfbacks, if you have a look, I think, get given a ball from someone in the middle of a of a of a mall, a stand-up contact with the opposition. It's I don't know, what would it be? 90 something percent picking up off the ground and distributing the halfback would be. Yeah. Um, whereas in our game it was a lot of it was off the ground. It was it was heavy contact and then ripping the ball, mauling. Having it in the hands rather than on the deck.

Murrayfield Punch And Tour Legends

SPEAKER_00 32:43

Yeah. I love that. It's a very different sort of physicality. And we were talking off air about uh one of your incidents is uh uh a punch in the face, mate, which ended your captaincy when um Bill Bill Cuthberts in for Scotland. Do you want to run us run the audience through that one? Because it's it's something which doesn't happen these days. Oh, come on, come on, Tony. It was it was it was a long time ago.

SPEAKER_01 33:06

Surely of what do they say, just one goat? Um yeah, I mean we're playing Scotland. I was captain in 81-82 of the long tour of the UK. Um, and we'd scored three tries to one against Scotland, and we got beaten by the most number of points in a test match on tour. Andy Irvine kicking goal after goal, we're missing goals, frustrating test. So um Mark Ella 5-8, ball comes to him, he drops the ball. I reckon they're all offside, and I've just remonstrated with the referee going, sir, they've got to be offside that you know, and I was a little vocal, and then Bill Cusperson was behind me, and he's coming whispering sweet nothings in my ear about my heritage, and I'd instinctively just turned and swung an arm which whistled past the referee's nose, hit him. He's gone down, I think more lost his balance than anything else. It wasn't a you know, wasn't a king hit. And then I'd shit myself, and referee's gone, you, and I've gone, as he started a point, I'm thinking he's gonna send me off, and he's gone, you stand over there. I was very relieved that he only wanted me to go ten metres, not you know, 50 metres off the paddock. Anyway, I wasn't sent off. So um played the rest of the game, but the the beginning from the Scots at Murrayfield, howling, howling for my you know, dismissal. And then um at the selection meeting, I was the selector, um, Bob Tembleton, um Sir Nick Shahade, his manager, and um they'd picked the front row we'd picked the front row, second row came up, and uh they'd agreed on the second row. I was playing second row at that stage, and they'd said, and my name not there. I'm thinking, oh good, I'm playing the back row. Nothing was mentioned to me. Nothing from the from the management, you know, about there's got to be some sanction here. I think the English English Rugby Union would have had some conversations with Rugby Australia back here, I would have thought. And uh anyway, I wasn't picked in the back row, and I've gone, what's going on? Well, you know, your form's not great at the moment, your form hasn't been great when since when? You know. I played the test and I played a midweek game as well. And yeah, long story. So yeah, I was uh I didn't play the English test, so um, I sat in the stand for that one, and that was the Erica Rowe streak. I don't know if you remember that incident back then, but quite a buxum English lass came onto the paddock and had a streak at half time, and then the Bobbies came together, and the Bobbies used to have that the big helmet at the time. So it's this great photo on the front of the Daily News or whatever next day with the Bobby's um hats over her breasts as they're walking her off the paddock. So I'm in the dressing shed with um not the dressing in the members stand, because I wasn't a reserve that day, next to Mickey Martin, um Parramatta player, and Mickey's gone carrying on. And then the English, one of the English ladies in the members stand, very close to us, with the comment, oh my god, she must be Australian. She was very clearly a Buxham English lass who hadn't seen a lot of sun, I've got to tell you. So anyway. So they marched her off. We got a photo next, we went to Port School after that for the barbers game. Um, and um the news of the world or whatever the paper was, we got, I don't know, thousand quid or something. Um Paul McLean was um um treasurer for the tour, and um they wanted a photo of her with the team, so we dressed up in the Wallaby gear, had Erica on our laps in the front row, and that was front page of the paper next day, so after that. But this is this is a few days after the you know the after the test. So yeah, it was an eventful one, that one.

SPEAKER_00 37:09

Can you imagine that being repeated um in today? No. No. Well well m imagine if you were the president of Australian rugby and the Australian rugby team had done that in this day and age.

SPEAKER_01 37:25

The notch actually went Paul actually went to Nick Sh Nick Shaley, and Nick said here's what we're proposing to do next time. We haven't had this conversation and walked off. So Paul said, if I can earn a thousand if we can earn a thousand, well we got we get four quid a day, you know, and you've left wives and children at home, you wait for three and a half months, no income. Um, and we, you know, we were selling tickets, um, you know, we had an allocation of tickets, we'd sell tickets, some of the journalists would help us be up the street in the over, you know, in the overcoats before the test match. Anyone, you know, got they'd be selling tickets and giving us the proceeds to put in the team fund. So we had a reasonable team fund at the end of the the end of it, so something good came of it. But yeah, I just said it it wouldn't be sanctioned by anyone. Well, probably wasn't then, probably there would have been some interesting conversations I would have thought that headquarters would have had with um Sir Luca after that one.

Captains In Selection And Honest Feedback

SPEAKER_00 38:24

Sure would have. Absolutely awesome. Let's have dig those photos up. And and and you said you were the like other s is is that how it generally run where you were selector as well as captain? Captains in those days were part of the selection process with coaches?

unknown 38:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:41

Well, what how do you think that goes for the code?

SPEAKER_01 38:43

You said coaches coach, one coach, one manager, me. Yeah. That was the that was the official tour party and a doctor. That was it.

SPEAKER_00 38:51

How how did that go for because it's probably not as prevalent today, uh if at all, I would say, for most teams. How how how do you think it has merit and could be done in teams today?

SPEAKER_02 39:03

Um hands on the team.

SPEAKER_01 39:06

Um I think it's good to share. Like, you know, brothers, let's say um Harry Wilson's brothers, Captain of Brothers, if he and um Ben McCormack, I wouldn't be surprised if they shared decisions on why I I'd want to know, as captain, I'd want to know why you've picked that side. So why not be involved in the process where you get to understand you know why certain players were picked, and depending on the opposition we're playing, you know, w what the pluses and minuses might be of certain players. I'd I'd I'd want to be yeah, I'd want to be in that session. Because otherwise I'm gonna be asking, hey Ben, um why is he picked and you haven't picked him? His form last week was great. Well, you know, there's more to it than that, surely, with the guy we're playing. So rather than have that conversation post-selection, I'd rather and then he can he can talk. It's not just the coach talking to the player. I think it's important that the captain also has that discussion with the player about you know, comforting him, putting the arm around the shoulder saying, hang on mate, we need to work on this, this, this, and this for you. Um, here's the here's what happened last week, or here's why you're not play playing because of the opposition and their strengths or weaknesses. You know, I think I think it's good to share that with the captain, absolutely the selection with the captain, depending on the side. Is it the wallabies? Um I think you get, you know, typically the wallabies have the coach is the selector. I don't know what counsel he seeks. I don't know what what he counsel he might seek uh on the selections, but I think he would probably go to the other assistant coaches and talk to them about decisions. I would have thought he should. But ultimately it's the coach's job, it's it's his reputation, it's his life on the line. So ultimately he'll pick the team he wants to pick.

unknown 41:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:02

Which is very different to our era.

SPEAKER_00 41:05

Yeah, it it is a different era one, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 41:08

And um it is better club wise or or um at school, you know, I think first 15 might it would be helpful, I think, uh whether you're in the whether there's a real selection meeting or not, whether there's a gathering of the heads about who who should be in or not, the coach should grab the the the coach should grab the the captain before it's announced to say here's what's happening, here's why it's happening. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:39

I think that's a really lovely little one to remember for for all coaches is that the the captain often provides that bridge between players and coaches. Like that's that one step remove for both parties.

SPEAKER_02 41:53

Really important. Hmm.

SPEAKER_00 41:55

Hmm. And to get that captain on side by uh divulging, sharing that sort of information is a is a great trust builder, and it helps then like water down that information, like it's div like spread it uh a bit more seamlessly through the whole organization when you've got someone who's got a foot in both camps. And the more you can sort of bring them into that camp, the the the better job they're gonna do at disseminating that ins information. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:21

Yeah, and as you said, it's all about trust, it's all about belief, trust, sharing, um, yeah, understanding why decisions are made and being part of it. And if you can have a say in it before the decision is actually made, I think that's important.

SPEAKER_00 42:37

Yeah, and you've got to say these things too, right? Uh there's another phrase I heard you say that silence creates problems um in leadership and in teams. So you you need to talk about truth and not just protect people, right? You've got to say what's on your mind, what you're thinking, why you're doing something, and just being You gotta make some hard decisions sometimes, you know.

SPEAKER_01 42:59

Um absolutely, you know, it's not easy being as you know, being a coach making and selecting, and more so these days, because it's the livelihood as well, you know. So you've got another aspect to the to the whole decision-making process. Yes.

Touring Argentina With Gullivers

SPEAKER_00 43:14

Which is a big one which differs from the amateur era, right? Like when you when you didn't get selected as a as a player after bopping someone in the face, you you essentially went to you know, if you if you were to be able to go home because it was a quick flight, you would be go back to work and you'd probably make more money in your day job, right? Whereas these days this is the profession, so when you get chopped and not selected, it's it's it's it's the profession which is compromised in all the stuff you change. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I I find that uh a really fascinating um change in the game. And it's it's interesting. And talking about sort of other professions, mate, now you we talked a little bit about touring earlier, and you and you're actually um you're actually away on tours now. You do a little bit of touring and you go away and you're off on the pretty soon you're off to Argentina with the um uh well you originally you were on the first ever game toured Argentina in 1979 with the Australian team.

SPEAKER_01 44:19

First time the wallabies had ever played Argentina with two and um had six weeks in Argentina. How was that tour? Had two tests, we lost the first test. Yep. You go to Porter at number 10, it's fairly handy. A couple of two-meter 120 or 30 kilosecond rows. Um exceptionally good scrum. Um, so they won the first test, we won the second test. But you know, fabulous country to two, though, so hospitable and um rugby hadn't developed, it was still developing at that stage. I think we played since then there's been 30 something tests that we played against them. You know, we won I think 20, I think, against 20 to 10, and then there's three or four that were drawers. So we've had the benefit of beating them uh over a long period longer period of time, but more recently they've got the woolen ice lake, they've won six out of six or seven out of the last ten. So they've come good.

SPEAKER_00 45:21

They've come really good. What and what's it like touring Argentina? Because they're very different, different to the UK, different to France. What's what's it like going to Argentina as a place to tour?

SPEAKER_01 45:30

Um well, there's a sort of been twice once in '79, which was the playing, and then um 2015, when Checker was coach, I was president of Rugby Australia. So I went there. It's a fabulous country. And Gullivers have got this um tour on, and and they're experts at organising tours and structuring them uh well. So it's 11 or 12 days away in Argentina to watch two tests in Psalter and Mendoza. So it's in the country. Um we're going to be a Buenos Aires and spending some time there, but it's just great to be out in the country areas 'cause it's fabulous country and um you know, you you you've you know, it's and the meat and the with the whole culture of the place, the meat and wh the food and the and the red white malbec, you know, um is the is the is the popular red. Um so it's it's stunning. So they're doing a great trip. But and I've done three already. I've done three World Cup tours, um uh England, Japan and and France uh more recently. But they're very good at structuring this, and this is just as soon as I as soon as they said, Sure, do you want to be interested in leaving a tour? I've just gone. Absolutely, because it is a stunning country, stunning country. And we're going to Iguazu Falls, we've got a day at in a um on a ranch, um watching them do all the horse tricks, we've got tango nights. Um it's it's good fun. It'll be good fun.

SPEAKER_00 46:57

Yeah. No, the Gullivers certainly do a wonderful job. We use them for our our tours too with um with some of the the school teams and and and school boys up there. Yeah, they do a wonderful job and and just it's it's just a one-stop shop, right? But mate, I I couldn't agree more with like Mendoza, having been there, and just the the thing drinking red wine in in Argentina with it, if you like meat, you are going to be an absolute heaven. Uh big yeah, just I just remember like they some places we went to, they were serving like KG steaks with uh and they were delicious, and they were just simple but just beautiful, and and just know how to enjoy life over that part of the way. And I I love how they celebrate games too. Some of those some of the crowds in Argentina are just phenomenal. They sing, it's like it's like a world of its own. It almost takes that soccer style mentality to a game, and they're chanting, singing, the hot dancing the whole way through, right?

SPEAKER_01 47:59

It's electric, absolutely electric. And then um the stadiums we're playing in, uh, one's the 20,000 stadium, one's the 40,000 stadium, but they're soccer stadiums. Um, you know, we're not in the big impersonal, you know, 50,000, 60,000, you know, capacity stadium. Um, these are earthy, um, they're former soccer stadiums, but yeah, that they'll be great. You're close to the action, you know, everyone will be dressed up. We'll be a very, very, very, very small minority, all dressed in gold, but you know, we'll be vocal and trying to keep up with the locals, as you can imagine.

SPEAKER_00 48:36

You'll be trying how many people are taking away? You're not going for three and a half, just 11 days, not the three and a half months this time round.

SPEAKER_01 48:41

It's a snatch and grab brain. And then obviously there's the ability because you've you know north to the USA if you want to, you know, I'm thinking of going to to New York afterwards or before. Um, so you know, you're away for ten days, it's like, well, you know, why don't we tack another week or two on the end of that and head somewhere else, you know, in the Americas.

SPEAKER_00 49:02

So I can imagine with you as the the tour leader, with your decade of three and a half month tours, you will have card tricks, uh, card games, all sorts of kangaroo court sessions uh up your sleeve, ready to roll at any time, right?

SPEAKER_01 49:21

But half the fun is the different people that go. You know, some people guys go on their own, some are couples, different age groups. Um, you know, we had two on the on the French trip, um, two guys and their 20, 21-year-old sons with them. Um, but you form a real camaraderie with the team. We do a lot together. There's six lunches or dinners um as part of the package. Um so we'll we'll have events, we'll have you know, dress-ups and all sorts of things. It's all but it'll be a lot of fun. It'll be a lot of fun. But we'll you know, Gwazu Falls. I mean, it's just encapsulates every part of the gauchos. We've got a day in the on the prairie with the gauchos, and obviously the the steaks, the barbecues, the the Malbec, that'll help uh wash it down.

SPEAKER_00 50:10

Certainly would. And just last week uh I'll the the podcast previous to this, we actually sat down with Felipe Contamponi and talked about the the state Argentina rugby's in, and it's in a very positive state, rugby in general. Like it's one of the few places in the world he said where club rugby is on the rise massively, like the the numbers are going through the roof. So this the groundswell for rugby in that country is is w one of the best around it's sort of bucking world trends in a lot of ways. Like it in most of the world the women's game is going through the roof, but in Argentina, all forms of the game is going through the roof from amateur roots. So to go on tour, to watch the big games, and then also be around all these people that are just moving towards the sport um with this real ground swell, it will create this it'd be absolutely magic.

SPEAKER_01 50:59

There's great passion for the game, massive passion for the game.

SPEAKER_00 51:02

Yeah. Hey, you're looking for nothing, like uh are the spots all taken up, mate. Can I can I jump on the trip or what's what's going on here? Definitely available, mate.

SPEAKER_01 51:11

Definitely you know, there's more spots available. We're looking we're looking to get 20 together, at least if we can get 20, we'll be we'll be happy. But um, there's quite a few who've been on previous trips with Gullivers who are interested in coming, so uh it'll be it'll be great fun.

SPEAKER_00 51:27

It'll be great, mate. Awesome. What's it like out of interest, mate, when you go and when you obviously you've played big test matches and you've walked into these sort of stadiums. What what what are some of some things that people might miss, like in terms of the atmosphere and the details around walking into a big stadium, test match as a captain? What would most people miss about that that you reckon is worth worth a comment?

SPEAKER_01 51:49

I think it's a bit different for us because we we you know the the touring group, um, you know, we'd we we we would have a lot of the games that we have gone to would have been at night, so we would have had a lunch, we would have had a few beers, a few red wines, a bit of a chat about the game, what to expect on the bus on the way there, um, you know, having beers while you're there, you know. Drinking and having and having a good meal is all you know part and parcel of the rug beers, you know. So um we try and fit as much of that in as we as we can. Um so I think it's it's very different to when like a home test, and I get always get nervous before you know Waratars, Queensland games always get, you know, the leg starts tapping and I get a bit nervous beforehand, and and test matches I get a little testy, but you know, beer beers helped soothe the nerves beforehand. But there's nothing specific looking like you know, um um it's just a great occasion. I think we're taking taking it all in as as the rest of the crowd is. I don't think there's any uh different way I look at it to to um to to how um the average patra and the average supporter would would do it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 53:06

Yeah. Well mate, I I I absolutely love those tours. I'm a massive um evangelist for tours of any kind, but certainly with uh the Gulliver's crew. And if people listening do want to uh Gullivers are a big supporter uh of us here at the show, and so if anyone does want to jump on that tour, they can just reach out to me and I can put you in put you you and Tony in in touch and he can he can drag you along for an absolute whale of a time.

SPEAKER_01 53:32

The best tour the best tour is the next one. The next one?

SPEAKER_00 53:38

Yeah. Or is the next one?

SPEAKER_01 53:40

The best one's the next one. You look back and say we've had a fabulous time at that World Cup and that World Cup and you know, touring the UK and all that sort of stuff, but uh this one will be very special.

SPEAKER_00 53:50

It will be special, mate. Far and and and yeah, it'll be bloody special, mate. Bloody special. It's a bla and especially with um dare I say it, some of some of the things which are happening in the world in different parts of the world, touring and and getting flights to some parts of the world is is not a not a good thing at the moment. Yeah, it's difficult. No, no.

SPEAKER_01 54:09

So um to find a place where you can get a great tour in and and and enjoy a bit of travel is yeah, ten or eleven days, and then there's opportunity to branch off either before or after and hit other places while you're there. It's a long way away. Might as well make the best of it.

SPEAKER_00 54:27

I absolutely love it, mate. Even tour I've gone on, I've come back a better man for sure. In fact, my young son's just been away on a an extended tour, and all of him and his buddies have come back at 14 years of age and just different men, different young men. It's it's incredible. Now, Tony, it's rugby rug rugby trip. It wasn't actually it it actually wasn't. It was a school camp, but all the rugby guys went on all of them went on it, and they all played rugby every day, and they went on hikes, then took the footy ball, and then they they played on the the fields for hours every day and they've come back fitter than they would have been. Yeah, loved it. And here's an actually an interesting thing they did. The guy that ran the camp didn't mark the field because he wanted the boys to experiment with whatever dimensions they they wanted to come up with and make the games and not feel constricted by lines or posts, which I thought was a wonderful um educational piece to then get young rugby players to just think outside the square, like play a different sort of game, play with a different form. Okay, apparently it's really good. Yeah, really good.

SPEAKER_02 55:36

Right, awesome.

Why Tony Stays Positive On Rugby

SPEAKER_00 55:37

Now, Tony, we've got to that time, mate. We've just got time for one more question on the show, and it's it's this one. And with your uh generation of experience inside rugby, player, coach, president of multiple organisations, what's something about rugby that you believe in that you reckon your peers would actually disagree with?

SPEAKER_02 55:58

Um I think the state of the game, I think there's there's a bit of negativity around the state of the game.

SPEAKER_01 56:08

Um and the Wallaby showed so much spark last year, and then and then you know we got everybody's hopes up and played so well and won some some some great games and Harry to Harry Wilson to take as captain to take in that Townsville test against Argentina and not take the three points being down by three points to draw the game that he persevered and said on going for the line, and then I think it went on for another eight or ten minutes until we actually score. And I think um things like that brought heart and soul and and great people have gone, love rugby, this is what rugby's about. When he didn't want to draw, he said, I'm gonna hang in here and take the risk, which he did several times, and um and uh and he prevailed. But I think the state of the game, I think a few people are a little negative about that, but I think I might have said earlier that rugby Australia is working really hard to get the grassroots to women's rugby, the you know, juniors people coming through the code, um getting them involved, and and I think with sevens, um, particularly the women, a lot of the women, um, the girls that are playing, there's a lot more, you know, the the the growth in women's rugby and sevens rugby is is significant. And I think as a result of that, you've got the girls that will play sevens and then might play 15s, but then the the mums are at the rugby ground are not just seeing little Johnny play, but they're seeing, you know, the daughters play and thinking and and talking to other people and getting you know more and people involved, and I think they're getting more comfortable with the game, which is great. Whereas Aussie Rules was been very good at bringing women to the game as spectators. I think they've done an amazing job doing that. So I think um, you know, we've we've got a fair bit to go because rugby league and AFL have been really strong and we've made some errors along the way. Uh but um I just think this out of the strength of the game, some people are a little but despairing a little about it, but I think um we've also got some challenges with a new coach coming in. Liz is coming in as Liz Kiss as as the new wallaby coach, so there's a transition time coming up, so that brings a little element of uncertainty about it, pardon me. Um but I just think it's the depth of the game and the strength of the game. You've got the core supporters, but I think we might have lost a few off the edges over the time, but we need them back and we need we need everybody, you know, rooting for Australia and and um coming to watch games. Yeah. Well, certainly seeing well. That was a bit long-winded, but you know the game's not uh in despair. I think the game's in good shape. But we just need to be super rugby teams used to need to be winning against New Zealand sides more regularly. That's that's a must. We've got to have that as the the base to it. We can't just wait for the wallabies to be playing the all blacks and and uh expect them to be you know to be playing at that level that they're playing. So there's a bit of work to be done.

SPEAKER_00 59:21

There is plenty of talent. Yep, there is plenty of talent. Certainly the schoolboy level here is phenomenal. Like as an example, the Australian under 18s smashed New Zealand under 18s um by a lot. Twice, wasn't it? Twice, yeah. By eighty eighty eighty points they put they put on or something silly like that.

SPEAKER_01 59:39

So and I hear well the I think rugby Australia and the and the and the franchises are getting involved with those guys, giving them a bit of connection with rugby Australia, with the wallabies and that sort of thing. So I think in the past the League Scouts were picking them off. I think there seems to be a bit of a some camaraderie around those guys saying, let's let's have a go, let's step through. And you've got um um uh Pritchard um Jaden um Trayvon Pritchard, 16 the 18-year-old playing for the Reds. He's picked for the Reds this weekend. He's already played three games, he's 18. So there's some good talent coming through. So we need to nurture that, develop it, pull them in, you know, get him engaged.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:29

Because they're important for our future.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:32

Couldn't agree more, Tony.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:34

I hope we haven't rambled on too too long, mate.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:38

Tony Shaw, what an absolute pleasure that and uh to have such an icon of uh of the game on the Coaching Culture podcast. So thank you. Thank you. What a privilege.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:46

Cheers.