Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
The Culture Behind 54 All Blacks | Auckland Grammar School
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What if the strongest teams aren’t built by hype, slogans, or “high performance” talk, but by a few clear rituals everyone can count on? I sit down with Dave Askew, deputy principal and First XV coach at Auckland Grammar School, to get a behind-the-scenes look at how one of New Zealand’s most storied schoolboy rugby programs builds culture that holds up under pressure.
We talk about the daily assembly as the “big hall” that creates belonging, recognition, and a shared start line for 2,000-plus boys. Dave explains why predictability and tradition matter, especially for students who don’t have stability at home, and how a consistent structure can unlock confidence and ambition. From there we get practical with “school rules plus one,” the idea that representing a premier team is a privilege and that leadership starts with doing the basics better than anyone else.
We also challenge the language that creeps into youth sport. Dave avoids the term “high performance” because of the pressure it puts on teenagers and the way it can scare off volunteer coaches. Instead, we explore “high care” as a better north star, along with a Plan A versus Plan B approach that keeps education and long-term career options at the center while still supporting big sporting dreams. If you coach school sports, lead a team, or care about building resilience and anti-fragility, you’ll take away tools you can use immediately.
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One of the greatest things in life is to realise that actually you're not that significant. And when you're at a school like like Grammar, I think that's a lot easier to get your head around because it is far bigger than any one person, right? It's it's it's not a right to be selected into the pr into a premier sports team, it's a privilege. I don't I don't use the word high performance with our boys. We don't use the word high performance with our sports teams. We are really cognizant of the I guess the impact that words can have and then how that can offset expectations. No one loves their kids more than their parents. Not everybody comes from a stable environment at home, and it's knowing what's coming next that provides them with such certainty that it builds confidence.
Humility And Privilege In Teams
SPEAKER_01He'd probably tell you 90-95% of all the things that are gonna happen at school today with certainty.
SPEAKER_00Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring. I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Dave Askew. Dave is deputy principal and first attend coach of Auckland Grammar School in Auckland, New Zealand, his 13th year with the first 15. Auckland Grammar School is one of the New Zealand's most iconic schools and one of the great rugby institutions in world schoolboy sport. It has a school role of 2,800 boys, making it one of the largest boys' school in New Zealand. Rugby is woven into the fabric of the school, playing for over 150 years and has built a reputation for producing tough, resilient young men. Few schools anywhere in the world can match Grammar's record. It has produced more all blacks than any other school in New Zealand. 54, including the likes of Grant Fox, Doug Howler, and more recently, Rico and Akita
Dave Askew And Grammar’s Legacy
SPEAKER_00Yoani. It has won 65 championships, a record unmatched by any other school in this rugby crazy country. Few people have seen Grammar from as many angles as Dave Askew, old boy, teacher, director of sport, first attempt coach, deputy principal. For over two decades, Dave has helped shape and grow this incredible institute of rugby, both on and off the field. Dave Askew, welcome to the Coaching Culture Podcast. Good to see you, Ben. Yeah, thanks for having me. Mate, it is actually a real pleasure to have you. Not only is the history of Auckland Grammar School uh rich, but both the history of myself and yourself, both old boys of this cool school, went through it together the same year. I think we finished up in 1997. Correct, yeah. Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_01And it's a bit disappointing that you've got a hat on this morning, because otherwise that that would be a little bit more even for some comparison purposes there then.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, we were just talking earlier about the silver fox mentality and and and and and you're certainly rolling that look, uh Mr. Askew. It's absolutely awesome. So yes, I have to I have the hat up, mate. It's early morning, so I I've got a it's my shortcut of doing my hair, my friend.
SPEAKER_01No, fair enough, mate. Fair enough.
SPEAKER_00Mate, what Auckland Grammar School, just w what what's it been like for you, mate? Like what a joy it must have been. You've been here a long time, both coming through it as a as a young man and now in one of the senior leadership roles at the school. How's that little experience gone for you, mate?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, thanks, Ben. Look, it's been life-changing, to be fair. Not that I came from a challenged background or upbringing in that regard, but I wasn't a young person who dreamed a lot. I didn't really, I guess as many young kids do or are, you don't necessarily think about the future too often outside of people saying, you know, what job do you want to do when you grow up? That's probably as far as it gets. But when I came to Grammar and I sat in those daily assemblies, what struck me was was the amount of talent in so many different fields. People would be playing music on stage, there'd be a cultural performance. You'd hear of the headmaster would talk about someone winning a forehand down the line in a tennis match that he saw in the weekend, and there'd be people crossing stage for different achievements and and getting recognition by their by their peers at school. And it actually started a little a little fire in me
Assemblies That Spark Ambition
SPEAKER_01in terms of what was I going to achieve at Grammar. Um and I I I can't recall a time previously in sort of, you know, uh adolescent or teenage years that shaped those sort of intentions as strongly. So that was probably the the the first part of that was it just how fortunate I was for my parents to decide to send me to the school. We're from East Auckland, we live out in Bucklands Beach, um, Pakadonga way. All my sisters went to the local school, Pakaranga College, it was a co-ed school, and my parents um made a conscious decision to send me to an all-boys environment. That's what they thought would be best for me. But it was a a pretty significant commitment. It was in almost an hour and a half on the bus in the morning to get to school, about 45 minutes in the afternoon to get home. Um not that it was expensive or hugely expensive, but again, that was another another cost. It certainly was expensive if I missed the bus because my mum didn't appreciate having to try and drop me in at Newmarket from Buckland's Beach in the morning. So um But I th I think that's that that is the first impact on me from grammar. Um when I left here, I wasn't gonna go and be a teacher. I actually did sports science at Auckland University. And anyway, found my way into teaching my so my my I got three older sisters, as I said, my and my youngest elder sister is a primary school teacher. She actually talked to me about the influence on young people and and the self-worth uh sense of fulfillment that she had on a daily basis working with young people that caught my attention. I loved sport and yeah, decided that that might be something that could be of interest. And once I started at teachers college, I just loved it. Um I found a real connection with with teaching. Then, you know, off finish your degree and you go off and do your thing and and worked at a couple of different schools for eight years and sort of found my way back to grammar. It wasn't really the intention for no good or or negative reason. It just wasn't really the intention at all. And yeah, found my way back here at grammar and as you you mentioned, seeing the school from a different lens or perspective has been a real blessing. Because I've now been able to see uh the impact that it looking back, the impact it had on me as a young person and what it continues to do for for young young boys in today's age.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. 2,000 boys listening to the assembly. But you just said then the public displays of success sparked a fire in me. And I think that's a really thing that this school particularly does well. It acknowledges publicly all those things. You talked about like just a uh a a four-hand tennis shot that someone did to win a match, or these little things. Every morning there's these This was done well, this was high achievement stuff, and publicly done. That's a pretty good little thing, isn't it, for a school to like it makes you really proud, or and in your case, makes you want to chase something a little bit more. I want to be up there, I want to get that recognition. I think that's very true for all young people, right? They want a little bit of public acknowledgement in a good way.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I yeah, I think so. I mean, I I've I've often said to people, you know, um out to dinner with friends and stuff, saying, you know, if I was going to start a school, I'd start with a big hall. You know, like the impact that it that that it's had that I've experienced, that my friends have experienced, and then that I've seen as an educator, it's it's a place that creates belonging, you know. So y I mean, you don't not that you'd have to do it necessarily every single day. We do, of course, because it pr it provides uh an immediate sense of belonging to start your day. You unite the entire school every single morning with a nine o'clock assembly, and as as you've quite uh rightly pointed out, opportunity to then acknowledge success or achievement. But also i it's the headmaster's classroom. And so he takes every opportunity to challenge the boy's thinking, to challenge maybe topics that are um relevant at the time and things that need to be just talked about with young men. And so through that opportunity, hence I talk about the you'd start with building a huge hall, uniting them like that and delivering those sorts of messages and experiences. All right, you you it's just intangible. You c you couldn't put a value on just how how vital that is in shaping the school and and what it is today and and has been.
SPEAKER_00I reckon that's a cool philosophy statement for any team, isn't it? Start with a big hall, either metaphorically or or otherwise. It's a place where that provides belonging and unites. And you and you were just talking then about it's the headmaster's classroom, but in say a rugby setting, it's the head coach's classroom, that first meeting of the day, wherever that is, right? Whether it's in your change room or out in the field, that's the place where you can challenge people's thinking before you even start the X's and O's of rugby, right? If you just really celebrate a big haul where whatever that is, a big meeting place, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And then like any, I guess, meeting, there's a culture that exists where whether you explicitly create it or you allow it to be created for you. And so we have a very um formal, even more formal than when we were there, um Ben, believe it or not. Uh Really? We have a very formal um assembly uh every single day. And the and the boys look, I'm sure they're sitting on seats that that date back, you know, sort of 70, 80 years. So they're not the most comfortable things. They they they do. They know how vital those assemblies are for the school. Um So yeah, and and and then those sorts of cultural things that gets reinforced and created can be hugely powerful.
SPEAKER_00What sort of traditions, interestingly, like w what do you start with? Is it a a a school prayer and then uh is it a s a set structure of the way it's done these days?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's right, that's right. So there's a there's a particular
Rituals That Create Stability
SPEAKER_01deadline in terms of getting into the hall. We still have a a bell that rings in the bell tower. So that's still the old-fashioned bell, and then that that signals to the boys basically you've got to run. If you're close and you can hear that, if you run, you'll probably make it. Doors close, um and headmaster comes out of his there's a handbell that rings then, five rings on a handbell, one of the prefects will do that, and that acknowledges to everybody to be quiet. The headmaster will come out of his study, um, and sort of when his door closes, that's sort of a signal to the school that he is out of his study. Uh, because you can't always see his study line of sight from where you might be sat. And then of course he walks on to uh the bottom of the stage, the first set of stairs, and the school stands, and he'll go to the lectern uh and read the school prayer. If it's a Monday, it starts with a reading, one of the prefects will do um a reading of some kind, and then he'll do the school prayer and then the school sits and typically he'll get into recent celebrations, recognition, stuff that may have occurred yesterday or in the last few days, then he'll get into topics that he wants to cover off, and then of course there's a daily notices aspect to the operational side of the school, you know, meetings and structure of the school day that may have changed because of XYZ, parent teacher interviews or whatever it may be. So But without fail, that's the sort of order of events every single time, every day. Which in you know, my role on the pastoral side of the school provides wonderful stability for the boys because not everybody comes from a stable environment at home. And it's the it's I think it's knowing what's coming next that provides them with such certainty that that builds confidence that they they know absolutely no. If you could pull any grammar kid on his way to school this morning and say, So what's gonna happen at school today, he'd probably apart from obviously the details within lessons, he'd probably tell you ninety, ninety-five percent of all the things that are gonna happen at school today with certainty. Because he absolutely knows that that's how the school day is gonna go. Which provides a wonderful foundation of comfort from then I think to to start, as I did, aspiring to achieve something. To go and get something.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I think that's really important that you say that. Everyone's starting from different upbringings and to have a unified, stable environment provides certainty, which then improves confidence. Now that you could cut and paste that mentality to any sort of team environment, right? Especially like a rugby team, which is a diverse mix of a whole lot of people. And on the whole, when we're talking rugby protect, uh it is people that n aren't always good on that side of things. They're physical by nature, they're into it. And having some sort of meeting place where they come together and just know with certainty what's going to happen is absolute gold for young people to latch onto and it's probably part of the thing they love about the sport too.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, it's a and and I guess if to bridge that into then coaching, for my mind, you know, having worked here for a decent period of time, if you if you couldn't teach on the back of that foundation, or if you can't coach on the back of that foundation, then you you probably shouldn't be teaching or coaching because it it is a wonderful foundation from which to then draw upon in the classroom and on the field or court or pool or whatever it is that that you coach. Because it's all there. It's all there for you, set, ready to go, and it's just then up to you and and your own skills and abilities and connections to then draw a smaller group of people into a unified approach than within the structure that's already been set, whatever that looks like.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, man, that's exactly right. So the system is making your coaching better just before you even start.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely, no doubt about that. And the only time that we sort of see perhaps coaches get in a little bit of trouble around that stuff is w is when they go against some of the things that are so set in stone here in terms of approach, values, etc. Because the boys actually will second guess that. They'll actually be like, well, hang on. Like, I don't know, let's let's say a coach was suggesting um not to do their homework um and instead to do some extras um in the evening or what have you. I think you'd find that that would be very unsettling for a grammar sports team because th those boys would um adamantly they they'd be adamant that that's not actually the grammar way. And so hang on, who are you? What what are you trying to get us to do? Because it is so established. It's very clear to them. So yeah, uh as I say, all you've got to do is law is take that foundation and and um use it, use it to your favour and you're away.
SPEAKER_00Love that, mate. Love that immensely. So I guess that leads us nicely into what what are some of the the key cultural and and values at at Auckland's grammar school and around the particularly the rugby programme? What what what's high on the list for grammar in terms of what what do you place importance on?
SPEAKER_01Well, I guess sort of probably the um first part, I don't know, in terms of a working definition, like when we're talking about cultural practices or culture. Years ago I I heard it um and I can't remember who who best expressed it, but I heard it um stated as, you know, culture is the way we do things around here. And I just thought that's just such a wonderful working definition that enables, I reckon, a bunch of people, particularly young people, to understand what that actually means. Because if you said to someone, oh our culture's really strong, I don't know, there's a there's a bit of cliche aspect to that. Um and it gets said a lot and I don't know, it can be quite implied and and not necessarily easy to define. But I think when you say it's the way we do things around here, then you can grab some very tangible things and go, like what? No, and you'd be like, Well, the school day starts with an assembly. Great. And then what? Well, you're expected to be in class on time. What happens if you're not? Well, your lateness gets tracked by the ding. What happens if you're late too often? Well, three late and you've got a Friday, two hour detention. So everything, and that's just one example, everything has a very clear expectation, discipline and high standards. And so therefore and that's why I talk about the foundation with coaching sport, if you're uh aligned with high standards, the di you know, discipline to live above the line, etc., then those things become uh a huge part of what you actually what what you what you do on a daily basis with whatever team you're working with. So that'd be the first part. In a first fifteen setting, um yeah, we talk about school rules plus one. So, you know, for me, um if you're in a premier sports team at this school, then you are absolutely um doing all of the basics. And if you're not, then you shouldn't be in the premier sports team. If you if you can't meet the basics of a of a day student, someone who turns up uh and you know, does nine to three fifteen extracurriculars
Culture Means How We Do Things
SPEAKER_01around there and meets all of the n the needs and expectations. If you can't do those things, you shouldn't be playing premier sport. Because there needs to i i it's it's it's not a right to be selected into the pr into a premier sports team, it's a privilege. Um and you get there by way of doing what everybody else does in the first instance, not expecting for anything extra. So school rules plus one is a signal to the team to say, well, if everyone can meet the school rules, what does it look like if we lead them? What does it actually look like? So if we have the best socks in the entire school, the best shots so socks up for those who are unaware, we're a garden school. Socks up top of the calves, there's actually a uh designated line. The headmaster quite gladly talks about where is the top of your calf. No, that's the middle of your calf. That's the bottom of your calf. Um so we make it very clear where the top of the calf is. Shirts tucked in, you know, top buttons not done up unless you're wearing a tie. You know, th these sorts of everyday practices and that then becomes you know a huge part of the cultural aspects of your team, the way you do things around here. So I want the first 15 to role model and lead the school rules because I believe they have a position of influence. And it would in my mind, it would be wrong of me as in terms of the I guess the spearhead of that team, it'd be wrong of me not to instill in them the highest of standards and standard setting to role model what that looks like for future grammar boys. Um and and they and they do that with huge pride, Ben. Um at at no stage, my own in my experiences with the first fifteen, have I had kickback from the boys about what you're asking them to do. Not at all. In fact, after a while of doing it, they they're pretty hard on each other themselves, particularly around things like haircuts, you know, because obviously there's a there's a school rule around haircuts and what's allowed and what's not allowed. And of course, there's elements of, I guess, pressures to conform, to look ideal, to f you know, to fit some of those societal peer pressure situations. And in a first 15 setting, you'll hear the boys calling each other out around, oh, well, that's borderline. Like in a week that'll be over, so you need to get that cut. Just just saying. You know, so I you're actually listening to all of these little conversations without even having to to step in and do it. So that would be a big part of what you'd see. If if you turned up to watch a session, I'd I'd expect you to hear what a purposed environment sounds like. What you know, what what is training with purpose sound like. I'd want you to be able to see it. That you you could see that there's a real purpose to what the boys are doing. I'd want you to feel that there was care. That you you could actually you could watch a session and you could feel how much care that the boys had and what they were doing. And yeah, prob probably the last part is um that yeah you're heartened by a bunch of young people. You know, young people get particularly young boys, you know, th they they feel the brunt of a lot of society stuff, you know. Like if you're not if you're listening too closely, like apparently they're the worst drivers driving group around, you know, with crashes and all these sorts of things, and you know, young boys and do they talk and mental health and all the rest of it. Like y young people today are amazing. They they are amazing. And I often say this to some of the boys when they start talking about things around society and how they've evolved, because I'm a physetta by trade, so yeah, huge interest in terms of physical activity and lifestyles. Um and they there's no no doubt in my mind, young people do it better than what we did then. Like they they do. There might be the odd thing where we'd go, mm, okay, I want to check you on that. But generally speaking, the young people of today, they're better public speakers, generally speaking, got better manners. Um, they actually talk to people when they've got problems. Half of our referrals to counsellors are self-referrals. 52% of them are are self-referring to a counsellor to say, Hey, I'm pretty keen on having a chat with someone that's not in my family and not a significant adult in my life. Can I chat to you? And I I just think that's incredibly heartening. So if you if you were to watch that session, I'd want you to walk away going, geez, I'm really heartened by a bunch of young people that are just getting stuck in in a in a team sport and giving it their all. Um and and maybe a few other things in there too.
SPEAKER_00I love that. I think that's like because you you do hear in every generation you hear it sort of you sort of hear comments about the young generation not doing X, Y, and Z, but you're right, mate. There's certainly in my experience too, way better talkers than opening up. And they're just the my generation young people are excellent at that. And certainly from our generation, there was none of that. And we now as the the senior generation, we actually have to get better at that. Because we are in the coaching and leadership roles, we actually have to, you know, ditch our past and be better at
School Rules Plus One Standard
SPEAKER_00that side ourselves, right, to match the quality of these young people coming through.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00And I do love, mate, when you said school rules plus one, that kind of student first mentality, and I think that's a cool one for schools to remember, that sort of compounding influence that good behaviors have on each other. And and and I would like to just raise, just around the context of grammar, because those that don't know it, it's a public school, it's not a private school. It's for everybody that lives in the area. Um if you're in the area you're in. And I think that's important sometimes to know if you don't know the school, that it's it's just this lay of tradition over and over again by anyone that comes to the school. And often these sort of standards and traditions uh are found at the very high-end private schools, which you pay a lot of money for, but this is something which has organically just been raised over time, right? It actually feels like a private school because of the how disciplined and structured it is, but it's it's not at all, which is uh incredibly inspiring for any school or any team on any budget, knowing that it can be done with the right emphasis.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, look, if the headmaster was here, he would use the term merit. meritocracy. He he he talks to the boys about about the idea of you come in and you will be judged on your performance and your performance alone. Not what you did prior, not what who you know um or r elements of any other perceived sort of judgment. You will be assessed and judged on what you do right now from now onwards. Um and until such time you have the support of the school until such a time as you know that that that you work against the school in the in that setting. So that just yeah reinforces what you were saying about that state education approach. You know, pla a place for everybody to belong, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Yeah I love that mate. I love that immensely. Now when we're talking about uh sort of particularly rugby at at school in Auckland in general it's it's a very different to a lot of the worlds and and one aspect that I was just thinking of for those who don't know Auckland rugby is graded in the in the age grades by weight. Correct?
SPEAKER_01Yes you got both you got both now so there's there's weight restricted um and then there's open weight by age.
SPEAKER_00Yep. So when you are you do you still do weigh-ins at the start of the year is if you're a young 13 year old or 14 or 15, there's all the weight graded teams which it shows the sheer numbers of people that you can have weight graded teams but it's such a cool concept which isn't done everywhere in the world where teams are split up by weight. So am I correct to say 40 kilos to 50 kilos that's a weight band?
SPEAKER_01And 15 to 60 kilos. Yeah give or take that's right. Yeah as you know evolution has changed those weight bands have gone up and people are getting taller, right? Taller and bigger but that's right, you do, you do. So you've got those sorts of weight bands. There's now some restrictions on on age comparison. So a third form a form three student or a year a year nine if we're talking modern language it'd be year eight for you guys over their first year into secondary school. Yes years gone by they could actually be playing against a seventh former in a weight restricted capacity. So seven A or six A, you might have you know a a a a seventh form boy who's at that same weight and a third form boy and they'll end up playing alongside each other and against each other. Nowadays they've got limits on on the age difference between those. So they they talk about sort of being a three or four year gap, not a five year gap whilst you're still playing just to allow that that time and growth really. But otherwise that's that's effectively how they they're graded, yeah, into their weight bands. And then those who want to play open weight go and play age restricted open weight.
SPEAKER_00Yeah well and I think it's lovely too I think not all places can do it but w if you can do it, it just I I know from a parental point of view it certainly would be welcome
Purposeful Training And Modern Boys
SPEAKER_00with open arms to a lot of parents who are just trying out the game, wanting to get into it, just to ensure that there's a huge disparity of weight for young men, particularly around the ages of 15, that just goes through the roof. So you've got 100 kgs versus 40 kgs is a there's a big difference, isn't there?
SPEAKER_01Yeah there is absolutely and I sort of look at some of the innovative stuff in other sports you know like bite size and you know cricket as an example. My kids came through and did some junior cricket and I the rotation used to be a Friday night game, sad day game, Friday sad day. And the parents loved it because it wasn't a sad day every week and it wasn't a Friday every week. And then there's you know small, you know, T20 I guess would be an example of that. So I think rugby's getting better, there's still a bit more work to do on trying to be as inclusive as it can be so that people s want to stay engaged with the sport because yeah let's be honest it is a confrontational game. And if the one reason preventing you from signing up is well I just don't want to play against people as big as that, well then where were possible you want to make those allowances. Auckland under eighty five KG, rugby at club level is hugely thriving. Yeah. There's more than more than a single team at many clubs, two or three teams at one club alone for under eighty five. So you know th th those are hugely significant people involved in the game and that starts at school. So you I think you've got an obligation to provide that participation opportunity just as much as you'd also I think want to extend them in a performance setting too. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I think that it's a it's a nice band isn't it that under 85 kilos. Like it's just a nice level where and if nothing else it challenges you to get down to a weight which is probably better health for you anyway, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah absolutely yeah that's right.
SPEAKER_00And all your front rowers look like loose forwards.
SPEAKER_01Yeah well that's that's that's an interesting part of the game yeah that's right. There's certainly well there's far less dominance in terms of size, that's for sure. But you know you see you see good footy. You you see people out there I bet if you asked half of those guys also what did you play at school? I bet you for a whole heap of them they were second fifteen for three A first fifteen players who for lots of different reasons um didn't continue down a performance pathway but are still engaged in the game and still playing good footy you know huge appreciation for the tactics involved in a game they play fast it's a good brand people want to watch it yeah it can only bring good things in my view. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Now mate when it comes to like good things mate when we're talking about the the the grammar rugby program it is a good thing mate 54 all blacks 65 championship wins like setting records all over the show how's that gone and what what are some of the challenges to running when you're stepping in and running and continuing to run such a successful school rugby program what are some of the challenges around that for you? Like I'm sure there's a lot and a bit of pressure too no doubt.
SPEAKER_01Yeah I guess there is. I don't know I'm I'm pretty pragmatic about that sort of stuff Ben like I sort of I sort of go, well what is success defined as or by? Because if if success is return on championships, then one would argue that we're not being as successful as we should be or could be or have been But if if success is the way students feel when they play for the school, if success is improvement from the start of the season to the end, if success is that you have been in in a in a team environment that you could now leave and lead a different team environment and make it better through what you've been involved in, then I think that the school's in great heart and and could say, yeah we've been really successful. But like like anything, if you don't feed it, it dies. If you don't absolutely work at that stuff daily, then it'll just erode. So those guardianship aspects of particular staff at the school but also the senior students as they progress through to have a very deep understanding of what the school is and what it stands for, those guardianship aspects are massive and I I I think one of the greatest things in life is to realise that actually you're not that significant. And when you're at a school like like grammar, I think that's a lot easier to get your head around because it is far bigger than any one person, right? So when you, I don't know, get back to just being you humble you and getting on with it and realizing you're a part of something pretty special. I think that's what success can be, you know, your your view, your outlook on things. But yeah to get to sort of outcome sort of stuff, I mean like you know, whenever you're playing sport there is a scoreboard. And I I th I think success is being able to work with young people that are incredibly motivated, they have high aspirations, they have set themselves challenges that they feel are uncomfortable and they are able to walk off the field either with humility or with dignity, no matter what that scoreboard says. I think you're not in a successful place. We're coaching young people this is, this is not professional sport, but I don't believe you're in a successful place when your team or your school or whatever the setting is walks away from an an event where they've been judged and they can't actually either show humility or dignity. I don't I don't I don't care what the school board says I don't think you've been successful in that space. That's what happens.
SPEAKER_00It's interesting you say it's not a professional sport because that is a challenge in in very good rugby schools isn't it where there is a pressure sometimes or maybe not a pressure but there's a there's a desire from a lot of players to be professional. And how do you balance that side of things mate? Like because a lot of good schools that play particularly this sport there is that increasing feel that you've got to be doing well in order to make the next stage and all this how do you balance that side of things out with the love of the game with the wider culture and all that stuff as well as for those that are going to potentially be there keep that elite level stuff going.
SPEAKER_01Yeah totally I think that that is a really challenging space Ben I really do. I don't I don't think that I've necessarily got the solutions but over my time I guess my experiences I've sort of come back to my coaching philosophy like what what am I actually here for? And with all due respect at the end at the end of the day I'm I'm just a schoolboy rugby coach and I mean that with all all due respect. I love working with those kids and I'm certainly not suggesting that that's not an honourable or good way to live your life or whatever it may be with a career. But at the end of the day I I am just a schoolboy rugby coach. I don't I don't see it as my role and I'm fortunate in terms of you know leadership at this school, the the headmaster, the board. It's not our role to create professional rugby players. I mean 54 All blacks, yep. Auckland Grammar school can sit there and say, hey we played a part in that but I don't think you should
Weight Grades And Inclusive Rugby
SPEAKER_01ever sit there and and suggest that that you played too big a part. You know you you'll know with your your playing time there's a whole lot of stuff that's gone into that that's got nothing to do with the school. Nothing at all. But hopefully they've played a part and if that part was of significance to that young person and it helped, great. But it's not always going to be like that either. So I think you can get a little you can you can if you're not careful get a bit seduced by those sorts of stats and think that you know everything you're doing is great and wonderful and you should not review and you shouldn't evolve. And I think that would be wrong too. So it'd probably been the first part is sort of my philosophy towards coaching and working with young people. Another part is we we would front foot that so I don't I don't use the word high performance with our boys. We don't use the word high performance with our sports teams. We are really cognizant of the I guess the impact that words can have and then how that can offset expectations. And and there's huge challenges around that because the games evolved in my mind really quickly and if you are teaching full time at school, it would be pretty difficult to stay up with the pace of change. And so I think it alienates a lot or it has. Certainly my experience is it's alienated a lot of good coaches um at schoolboy level in this country, which is a shame because of course you need your volunteer base. You just can't live without them. But certainly i it's evolved so quickly and at that sort of pace that those people get left behind and then of course there's judgments made around well are they good enough? Can they coach first 15 because they can't do this or they can't do that or w their teams are doing this and this and this. Which I which I think is a is a real shame because that that's a different lens of assessment towards that coach or of or towards those those that team or players. So that would be another part I think being really deliberate with your language. We then meet with the parents and the boys and we we talk about the season ahead and I actually talk to them again with all due respect to those who might want to be professional sportsmen. To me that's not plan A. For me plan A is a job that you can do until you're able to retire and currently that's 65 in this country but by the time these kids get there that's going to be a lot older. You know let's be honest it's going to be I don't know maybe 70. If you last past 30 as a professional rugby player you're doing well that's right and and of course because I'm a I'm a I'm a teacher at heart I'm a coach second um so to me plan A is uh a work a job that you can perform that you wouldn't that you would enjoy doing until you can retire. Plan B for me then is professional sport and if plan B actually supersedes plan A for a period of time in your life and that's what you want like go for it and like enjoy every moment. I'm not I'm not against professional sports environments. I think they're wonderful things but I think it's it's a danger in getting that plan A, plan B round the wrong way. Hence our sort of approach. And you know that might last one season it might last ten seasons it might be fifteen seasons you might be really lucky. You might then fall into other roles within professional sport that you enjoy and and you have a huge impact and significant role to play and that and that's wonderful. But you will always have something else to fall back on provided you got the key educational achievements along the way to enable yourself. I don't know about you, but my thoughts are if you've got choice in life then that that's a privilege. So you're I don't know you've got the a choice of taking up a professional rugby contract, wonderful. But you've also got the choice of going to a university, you've got the choice of doing some other courses of study, you've got the choice of going into a job and you go any many miny mo, which one actually do I really want to focus on for the next I don't know, three years, five years because you have choice. I I I think it's not a great place to be for a young person to stare down the barrel of a singular choice at the end of secondary school experience. I don't think that's a it's a great way to start from 19 onwards if you like. And and that can happen I think when those two plans are around the wrong way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah and I think I think it's important particularly for if you're trying to do pro sport, if you're essentially going all in on one thing, you're essentially taking a massive gamble and like even like the the sort of analogy of going all in in a poker game, you're sitting there going, ooh gee, I hope this works. Yeah. And you don't want that feeling because that's creating a your own pressure on yourself. It may come off but if you're knowing that you've still got a big pot of chips just sitting there so it doesn't matter if it comes off or not gives you real confidence in your in in life as a person where if you're all in on one thing and particularly in a sport where it can get derailed as easily as an injury which could happen at a training very perceivably it's you're create you're creating unnecessary stress and I think you're right mate like to not pile that up on students at the ages of 15, 16, 17, 18 is is a really good thing. And and I just want to get back to you Dave you said around this word high performance being a bit of a something you don't use and I I loved it because it's often bandied about quite quite freely and I and I'm absolutely with you you've got to be very deliberate with your language and that words can offset expectations in a in a potentially negative way. And I I love that concept because I've been a high performance for a good 16 years professionally and I I don't necessarily know what the definition of it is and and and a lot of coaches that I talk to on this show I I do ask off here like how do you find and no one can really define it. It's like the word culture it's a bit bit of a grey and so to bandy it round loosely I think is a very dangerous place to go because it sets this pressure and expectation that isn't not necessarily bang on. And the best little reframing of words that I hear have heard and this is particular for schoolboy rugby but it should be for all is it's not high performance it's just high care. And I think that's a lovely shift in language. Not high performance high care. And when you frame it like that it's essentially saying the same things but just the way it's said is lands better and it's it it's a calming effect. And you made the point that when you're talking about high performance it's not just the players that feel the squeeze
Redefining Success Beyond Trophies
SPEAKER_00of that it's also some of the coaches that you have to be X, Y, and Z. You have to be doing all this stuff, you have to be working extras and do all this which creates this you know pressure in another part of the school. So it's fascinating mate and and I'm going to keep going with some of the words you said too mate coming back to your coaching philosophy I think that's lovely. And being having the support of your headmaster and aligned with the school and I think that's a really important piece isn't it around anyone in a rugby setting knowing what the wider context is, the wider culture the wider in in your context is the school what what the wider beliefs and values of the school are and are you aligned with that in the way you're coaching.
SPEAKER_01And I think would you say that's a pretty massive piece for all your coaches across all your grades Yeah definitely yeah absolutely and I I I think it's a privilege to work um underneath um you know someone like our headmaster be because of because of those reasons right like you you you will be judged on on what he observes and that's what I said to you if you came to one of our training I want you to see those things right um and to me if you're in a classroom teaching or you're out on a sports field coaching that that that's the point of judgment. Not ne not necessarily whether or not you're winning on Saturday or turning over championships or top four finishes or whatever it may be. So I I think that's a real privilege. As a consequence what we get out of that is we have a huge portion of teachers who coach. We we've got well 16 rugby teams this year but there's there's a staff member with every team. There's sometimes two there can be three depending upon the team. Some have national tournaments so you know we put a manager with those teams to help out with some of the admin behind the scenes. So you know under fifteens will have two teachers coaching them a head coach and an assistant coach and a teacher who manages them. You know the head coach is a biology teacher the assistant coach is a P teacher and the manager's an art teacher. You know? And they do that, I believe well there's lots of reasons but surely one of the reason I'm sure they would admit is because actually they know that it's appreciated. They're not they're not going to be reviewed around whether or not they're going to be able to coach a rugby team next year against some metric scale around performance. So I I think that falls in our favour because if you're gonna be over analytical about stuff. Particularly around high performance you're actually going to scare people off. Yes. And if you scare people off it's like well who who's going to be the reliable person that turns up twice a week and on a Saturday to work with those boys if it's a rugby team in our school. You know, so who is it? Because I'm struggling to see where the next reliable person is that's going to do two trainings a week in a game. And that it's that I think that's a dangerous place to be, you know, like that.
SPEAKER_00Um yeah mate and I I I flash back to my days at grammar coming through um the lower grade teams and I just like every year was a different teacher and it was so different. And I think there's something special in about that particularly when you're going through the ages you're having these diversity of voices coming at you. And some of my coaches weren't actually super good rugby coaches. They were just super good people and y what you picked up from those people were like we talked about the values of the place or or good values in general and they might not know their rugby but they're teaching that side of things because they're teachers by trade. And I think there's real importance and I I love seeing it in in school boys where you've got like a really contrast from this year you have that sort of coach and then the next year is that sort of coach and that yeah that then by the time you get to maybe first 15 it's a very different coach from your your under 13 coach. And what an experience you have in five six years at high school where you're just got these this abstract smorgasbord of people that are influencing you around a vehicle of a sport which you love but putting in the values in such different ways like art teaching to biology teaching to PE teaching it's cool. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And it's not to say also been that those people don't want to be good at what they do. Yes. But I think the first part is is the acknowledgement of hey well well without you we wouldn't have a teacher with those boys. We we believe in that in a teacher is the is best placed to be working with those boys. But there can be support and resource added you know because not all of those people necessarily have all of the answers around different sports and games that are played. But I think if you start with the first part there's that hey we're actually just really grateful that you are prepared to work with this group for this season and then go, and what could we do to help you? You know, and and through that you'll get some ideas and typically what you'll get is those people saying oh there's an area of the game that I really I'm just not that OF with is there a chance for someone to come to
Plan A Careers And Word Choices
SPEAKER_01training and show us some things? Or you take some videos of a session and you share it with some other people for some drills and ideas and what have you and you you'll find most of those people will actually go and implement some of that stuff. You see you actually are getting them better. It takes a little bit longer but you're not losing them. That's that's the key part you know it might might take them a couple years to get a substantial improvement in their coaching but you actually haven't lost them in the interim either. Yeah and I think I think that's really important.
SPEAKER_00Really love that mate you haven't don't lose your coaches. What about what about the other side of things at schoolboy level which isn't a particularly big factor is your your parenting side do you lose how do you can you lose your parents? Can you win your parents over? What's what's been your experience with dealing with sort of parents around the sporting context in particular that's important for others to hear?
SPEAKER_01Yeah yeah look I um I guess what it yeah my background's teaching so you have parent teacher interviews you know regularly right so it's not something I guess that I've not gotten used to over years in education but I could imagine if you weren't a teacher and you were working in that space that that could could be challenging. I sort of come my first part is no one loves their kids more than their parents, you know like even if I sit in a discipline meeting, you know, th that that's that's someone's child. You know as soon as I I think when you when you accept that that there is a a deep love and you've got kids and I've got kids too so w we know what that feels like. But when you actually understand there at first there is an absolute deep love. Arguably this person will do anything for their sibling. You know, they will do anything for them. So when you understand that then you can actually rationalise I think what behaviours you might be seeing if if they're not you know positive and supportive behaviours. Um and and acknowledging that I think from the get go is really important. I think communicating with them around expectations is also important because again like volunteers, parents are are a wonderful support group for any team or any individual sport for that matter. Just think of taxis alone moving them around Auckland and all the rest of it alone is is a huge job in itself. But I I sort of think if you can um communicate with them early on really clearly and openly around what what are what what's this team going to stand for, what are our expectations, what role do the parents have and make that really clear. In my experience Experience. Most people are wanting to just fulfil their role in part of that team to the best of their ability. And most people aren't actually obstructive. And of course there's always going to be things, you know, because in in coaching, as I as I say to the boys all the time, only 15 people can play at a time. You know, that's that's the rules. That's the reality. And I think one of the joyless tasks is selecting 22 each week and then 15 of those at a time on the field. Because as a physed teacher background, I don't go to a I mean I don't teach a lot of P now, but when I was teacher P, I don't go to the PE class and go, right, I've got 36 kids in my class. Hey, can you guys over there that you know that you 14, could you just move to the side over there? We're gonna actually carry on doing some stuff today, but you're just gonna stand over there. Like that's just at odds to me. Um so therefore, if I've got like I've got 29 in my squad this year, provided there's no injuries and around availability or sickness, every week seven guys do not have the opportunity in any way, shape, or form to play on sad day, and like like that's tough. That that that's tough. I I acknowledge that with the boys. Like I'm like, this is the worst part of the job. Because they they they know they're not silly. They know you're a human being, just just like themselves and just like their parents. But I but I think it it helps it helps show them that the that these sorts of decisions, whilst they might be unfavourable and unpleasant, it is part of life. It is part of life. Not not everybody at every corner gets selected for something. And we've got to build our resilience. The headmaster would talk about anti-fragility around that stuff. Anti-fragility. Anti-fragility, yeah. That's his that's his word over the last couple of years around around that space. Yeah. The opportunities to build the resilience required to not fall apart. When when things um are stacked against you, when things don't go your way, when you've had an undesirable outcome, uh when life's been unfair, etc. etc. And I and I th I think that's an important part to share with parents too. I also actually we we have a parents meeting when we start the year. I don't know whether this is of any use for people there, but we have a parents' meeting before we start. We always do it after our camp.
SPEAKER_00Is this just for the senior squad or this is yeah, this is first fifteen.
SPEAKER_01So uh other grades, some of the grade teams do do it too, because a lot of the coaches in those grades have seen the benefit of it. Um because they may have had experiences with first fifteen. Like there's a couple of ex first fifteen managers that are that have gone back into coaching and are coaching some of the grade teams, um, and they do it and they they see a real benefit. So effectively we come back from a camp, the team's names, it's another traditional aspect, the team's name the first Monday of term two, um, and that gets read out. All the premier teams now get read out at assembly. Um, Ben, when you when you were here, it would have been probably just the first 15 and maybe cricket or football and stuff like that. But now all the premier teams, sports teams, they get read out in assembly if you've made it. And then that week, before we have our first game, we'll have a parent meeting. And I actually share with the parents what the boys have created in terms of their pillars for the season and a little bit a little bit about what they've defined it as being. Because I I think, and I could empathize with parents here, if the boys are not bringing them with them in their sort of secondary school journey, it's it's quite an abrupt sort of way to finish sort of, you know, being a huge part of this young person's sport, maybe coaching them or driving to them all the games, and then all of a sudden they start a secondary school. And if you're not coaching or help being a key parent helper, and you're just watching games, you're not there for trainings or anything like that, and you're not there to pick them up because they don't need it anymore, they're catching buses. It could be actually quite alienating. Like, you know, if you think of a parent who's just loved their kids' sporting journey thus far, would no matter how good they are, and then all of a sudden they stop talking to you about it, but you see, I don't know, 60 minutes on a sad day or 70 minutes on a sad day, they've got all these tra it get to first 15, you've got all these trainings or meetings or whatever, and they're going away on camps or trips and stuff like this, and and all they're telling you is, So how was it? Good. Yeah. So I mean, you know, how's the team looking? Yeah, no, really good. If that's all you're getting, that could be pretty tough, you know? Because my par I mean, I don't know about about about yours, but my parents are still friends with some of the parents from first 15 days. My my mum in particular goes out for tea or coffee with a couple of the mums from back in those times. And so I've seen firsthand the relationships that have been formed through the parent group in that team. Uh and so you want that for those parents. You know, it's a
Keeping Volunteer Coaches In The Game
SPEAKER_01wonderful achievement for the boys, but it's also a great experience for the family. Yeah. As well. Because no one else plays in the afternoon on a sad day when it comes to schoolboy rugby, 2.30, you know, all the grade rugby's finished, last game's at twelve, and even that's only a more recent thing, 12 to 1.30 done. So you're the last game, if you like. Usually, you know, most households they've done their admin or whatever, and so they get along and watch some sport, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um and I think if you're able to share some of that stuff with them, I'd like to think that if I was a parent in that group that I would feel not privileged, but I would feel quite fortunate to hear what the boys are talking about behind the scenes. Because again, it's really heartening stuff, right? Like I don't I mean, I'm lucky because I work with young people all the time. But I I'd like to think that they'd go, geez, really, they're talking about that stuff. Yes. I don't know, like, yeah, a couple of years back the boys did some stuff around gratefulness, you know, yeah, back into COVID times, all that sort of stuff. So they just spoke spoke about, you know, just trying to be grateful for every every rugby training, because you for yeah, for a period of time there there was no trainings, you know, no games, etc. etc. And I think when you you tell parents or any any adult, you know, young people are talking like this, this is what they're saying about stuff, you'd go, oh, how good? Because that is good stuff. You know? So yeah, I I think I think that that probably I hope creates a forum of real clear roles. What's the parent role, what's staff role, what's the student's role. Here's some stuff around our team culture, that's what the boys have come up with, so that you're a part of it, so that you can see what they're actually trying to achieve. I'm pretty explicit around selection and school rules. Um and again, on the back of the foundation of this school, they know if they don't meet their daily expectations, they don't get to play. And all you as long as you are living that, then yeah, you should you should be fine.
SPEAKER_00I love it, mate. I think just coming back to that understanding of the deep love that parents have for the kids, right? And then they want to know a little bit about them, don't they? They they want to have that little bit of insight. So the more you can give them just a s they only need a snippet to just be like, oh cool, that's what it that's what they're up to. Because like you said, teenage boys particularly probably don't share a lot with with their parents. And and I'd I'd probably even suggest uh Sun sometimes it's not just first 15 meetings, isn't it? Like the young kids coming into the school to parents get together to actually understand the journey that that's gonna happen for their kids throughout the course of their time at grammar only school about how it's gonna evolve, what it's gonna look like here, the standards from the outset too, is also probably an also a pretty important piece. Yep. Yep. Now, Dave, mate, this has been an absolute pleasure. We got that time now. We've got time for one more question. And so we'll finish up with this question, mate, because from your perspective, what's one belief that you hold about coaching or schoolboy rugby in general that you think that you agree with that you think many of your peers might disagree with?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's a tough one to answer because I I I I don't I don't know the inner thoughts of our peers out there. I don't know. I I think there's a lot of people that it that do a lot of good and have a lot of w a lot of good meaning. Don't think there's a coach out there that's not well meaning or a manager or parental support. But I the key part to me is can you do it and when when you lose. I don't know whether that's something that people would agree with or not. There's a lot of people who I think pretend to do that stuff all of the time. But I don't think when when it actually truly matters, when leadership is no more important than right now for young people in a moment of a loss, to me I think that that's maybe something that others might disagree with or or not. The value of winning. As I said to you before, well, what is success then? I think if you're yeah. And the notion of success can be different to different people, and that sometimes unfortunately that can bring out the worst in people. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. It's all it's all very well having all the all the best meaning when you're in the sunshine, but when it's raining, that's when you really get tested, which happens a lot in Auckland, actually.
SPEAKER_01Does. And it's happy to do that.
Parents Meetings And Selection Reality
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00Right. Dave Askew, mate, if I may, I'd just like to wrap up this awesome conversation with my three key points that I took out of this awesome conversation with you and the Auckland Grammar School Rugby Program. Number one, the this culture of public displays of success and how they spark a fire. And we talk right at the start about starting with a big haul. And that's what you would do if you were to start a school. But we talk metaphorically how that's a place where that provides belonging and unites people. And it's the headmaster or the head coach's classroom where you get to challenge people's thinking. And we both agree that's a really vital thing. The way to start a day with traditions in a big hall and you celebrate success, first and foremost, is a great way to really capture people's spark. And Grammar does it by announcing at the start of the year, not just the first 15, but all the top rugby teams, to just provide that little spark for people to want to be better. Number two is school rules plus one. You talked about this sort of student-first concept that anyone that's representing a sport at school and a premier sport is a role model for the rules and the values and the expectations of the school, and that has a real compounding influence on what's done, not just in that team, but the wider school context. So, really promoting the roles and responsibility about representing a premier school sport is massively important. And number three, this word high performance. And you talked about being really deliberate with your language, and sometimes when you're banding about the word high performance, it can create sort of expectations which are offset from reality and place unnecessary pressure on both players and coaches. So the use of that word is something to always just be careful about how you're using. And we did use the phrase high care is a wonderful substitute in all levels of life, not just schoolboy rugby. Dave Askew, Deputy Principal and First Athens Coach of Auckland Grammar School in Auckland, New Zealand. What an absolute pleasure to reconnect with you back on here on the Coaching Culture podcast.