Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Paarl Boys High School | Inside the Program with Sean Eramus
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Rugby can fill a stadium. Culture can shape a life. We sit down with Sean Erasmus, head coach at Paul Boys High School, to unpack what it takes to build a values-led rugby program inside one of the most tradition-heavy environments in the world. His core idea is simple and demanding: culture is a living thing, and if we do not feed it and prune it every day, it drifts into something we never intended.
We get specific about what that looks like with schoolboys who face modern pressure that previous generations never had to carry: social media commentary, public hype, agents, contracts, and criticism that follows them home. Sean explains why banning phones is fantasy, how to talk about Instagram and TikTok head-on, and how to keep a teenager’s identity from swinging with every compliment or pile-on. He also makes the case for vulnerability in leadership: when we are willing to be real in front of the boys, they learn they can be real with us.
Then we zoom out to the system side of coaching culture and rugby leadership: how you scale consistent standards across dozens of teams, how you “coach the coaches,” and why you should match coaching styles to each age group’s needs. We also tackle the hardest stakeholder question in schoolboy rugby: parents. Sean shares a clear framework for respectful conversations, honest selection feedback, and boundaries that protect families on both sides.
If you care about team culture, schoolboy rugby, leadership, and developing young men in a high performance environment, this one will stay with you. Subscribe, share it with a coach or parent, and leave a review if it hits home. What’s one value you wish every coach would lead with?
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Cold Open On Culture And Legacy
SPEAKER_02One day I'm going to be asked about the amount of hearts that I've won and not the amount of games that I've won. Rugby brings you into the room, but team culture really takes you out of the room and into a new room and into a new destination. Vulnerability is actually a sign of the compassion and the willingness that you have to steep down to a level where somebody can see that there's something deeper in you than just what you're showing. And when we are prepared to be vulnerable in front of the boys, they will be prepared to be vulnerable in front of us. The same person that heroes you is going to zero you the next day. So that's just the way that it is.
SPEAKER_00Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I've been Herring, I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Sean Erasmus. Sean is head coach at Powell Boys High School in South Africa, having previously coached at the Lions. He's been in head coaching and director rugby of schools for 20 plus years. Powell Boys is established in 1868 and is globally renowned as one of South Africa's premier rugby institutions. 21 Springboks, including Cornet Krieger and Guthrough Steen Camp, and ranked schoolboy number one in the country, time and time again. The inter-school traditional game against Powell Gym is one of the biggest school fixtures in the world, if not the biggest, attracting well over 20,000 spectators every year. Nicknamed Bush High from the Afrikaans Boys High. This is a place where history carries real weight, and the jersey
Meet Sean Erasmus And Paul Boys
SPEAKER_00means something far more than the scoreboard. Sean Erasmus and Powell Boys, welcome to the Coaching Culture podcast.
SPEAKER_02Thank you very much. Massive privilege. Look forward to chewing the fat, like you said earlier. So yeah, all good.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's lovely to have you on and chew the fat. Well, what do you call it in Afrikaans? What would you say? What's the what's the word for chew the fat in Afrikaans?
SPEAKER_02Jeepers, I'd have to think it's uh you know, it's uh well, yes, I don't know. I'm I I I actually don't know what it is. Uh there's so many terms for saying let's get stuck in and almost hoy miles probably. That'll probably be the best. Choi miles. Uh let's have Hoys Millies. Hoy miles, yeah. Yeah, probably something like that.
SPEAKER_00Well, well, hoys millies, let's let's roll them. My pronunciation is horrendous, Sean, but that's all good.
SPEAKER_02No, it's all right.
SPEAKER_00We start this conversation always with this question, and it's particularly relevant for you, is how do you define culture and and how do you grow a culture inside a school?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I think the most important thing for me always about culture is for the players and everybody to understand that it's a living thing. It's something that you you have to feed, you've got to nurture it, you've you've got to give it the right things to make it grow the way that you want to. You know, if you if you if you give anything in life only water or substance, sort of sustenance once a week or something, it never grows, you know, it never gets to its true potential. So it you've always got to think about how you prune it and how you feed it with the right stuff to get the best growth out of it. So for me, team culture is probably priority number one, uh especially when working with schoolboys or any other team environment, because it
Culture As A Living Thing
SPEAKER_02just rugby sort of in our instance, rugby brings you into the room, but team culture really takes you out of the room and into a new room and into a new destination. So yeah, culture is a living thing for me, in my opinion. It's not just a few words or a statement of belief, it's something that you've got to live um every single day. And the best teams that I've ever been involved with is are those teams that are on and off the field, um, sort of have a total buy-in into a culture.
SPEAKER_00I love that phrase, mate. Rugby brings you into the room, but culture takes you into a new room, a new destination. Yeah. Man. You mentioned there, you you talked about um pruning a culture. Like you've got to feed it, but you've also got to prune it. That's an interesting context. What what what would you suggest pruning a culture might be or the the growth of a culture?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I think you know, for us working in schoolboy rugby, I th I always say to people the hardest thing about school boy rugby is that every single year you've got new players come and you've got limited time with them. So you've got to create a backbone to the culture that you want to drive. You've got to create something that that stays constant, but within that constant sort of uh place of that culture, you've also got to prune it down. So um, you know, m our three pillars with our team culture is faith, family, and team. You know, and sometimes your
Pruning Culture And Finding Balance
SPEAKER_02first year with your team might be very heavy on family and not so heavy on team, you know. So you've got to prune down that part of the family on how you see it and how you express it to get the focus right on the team side or even maybe the faith side. So some teams are top heavy in one part, and others you sort of so that's why I mean with a pruning, you've sort of got to just get that balance right and establish that balance within that culture and keep working to see how you can you can level it out, say to get the best of all the players and all those areas.
SPEAKER_00Or sometimes does yeah, even.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, big time. I mean, obviously, you know, working with uh some coaches and other coaches as well, often have that discussion saying, like, okay, so is a team really a family environment? You know, should you really be using that sort of term? Okay, team is family, you know, and what does it look like? Because it could easily be too emotional and sort of go there. And I uh people that know me will often say that, you know, Sean, you're like very sensitive and you're quite an emotional person because I wear my heart on my sleeve. Um, but I feel that's what brings that vulnerability out in my team, you know, and with my players is is showing my vulnerability and and going towards that family sort of environment where other players might come and have never experienced that, they might be heavy just team like listen, yeah, when we come to the field, when we work, we work hard as a team, and then when I put my boots off, take my boots off, that part of the team is done now, it's finished. And for me, my expectation is once we go off the field, how does the family culture speak to the team culture then? Because we might need each other for other things off the field, you know, and what does that look like? So you've got to sort of you've got to you've got to cut down a little bit on the family environment to first work in the team environment and also the other way around. Um, and then working with school boys, obviously I believe faith is a massive thing, um, is talking to the boys about that holistic picture about everything in your life.
SPEAKER_00How does how do you intertwine that? Like, is is that the values that you base a lot of your culture on? Is the the religious faith?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I mean our schools obviously we've got a Christian background um and and we talk to the boys often about that. I think your modern day kid sort of comes out of a lot of times comes out of an environment where maybe he doesn't have that exposure to it. So it's something that he doesn't understand or something that he doesn't know. So instead of just saying a prayer before and after the game and that's it, we have what we call family time on a Saturday morning before we go to school. So we'll come and we'll do a team activation and then we'll do family time. And in that family time, we try and tie some motivational side of what the week was in our training or things that we struggle with as a team,
Faith As Values Not Performative
SPEAKER_02maybe on and off the field. We sort of tie that into a story and we have a faith element based on that. Um, so for example, last year we had a uh a team that was phenomenal, and we were basically the same team in 2024, but in 2024 we nearly had a record score against us in interschool, so everybody sort of went like, well, you know, this team's not good enough, all this, whatever. And now speaking to our team culture, we we went with this verse in the Bible, Joshua 1 verse 9, which is be strong and courageous. And we tied that up to, you know, guys, when we talk about faith in our team culture, like if we talk about being strong and courageous, what does it look like on the field? What does it look like off the field? What does it look like in our family homes if we're a brother or a son to somebody, or you know, all of that? What does it look like? And we kept rotating and working on that throughout the whole year about being strong and courageous at team because nobody believed in us. Everybody sort of said, Well, you guys are gonna lose again. And we we worked around our values and our team culture, including that. So that was our faith part um of the team is being strong and courageous. What does it look like? So pressure number one, we're number two in the country, we're gonna play the number one school in a final game of the season. How are we strong and courageous for each other in that week? So so we try and tie in that theme and not like be a Bible bashing sort of thing about Bible under the arm and you can't do that and you can't do that, but rather educate the boys on those values of faith and our Christian values about doing the right thing at the right time and being a good man for the people around us.
SPEAKER_00Love that. Do you think it's do you think it's shifted with and you've obviously been in schools a long time? Do you think the faith aspect in general life isn't as strong as it potentially was, and schools that are of strong faith have a real duty to help that education and growth?
SPEAKER_02Definitely. Definitely, and I think you know, for me personally, what I believe is is that is one day I'm gonna be asked about the amount of hearts that I've won and not the amount of games that I've won. And um and I think you know that's that stays my core business, is that I believe I'm in this position to help boys um with different things. Rugby brings them into the room, like I said, and I absolutely believe that the boys that I work with are good rugby players, and my part in their life is not about the technical aspects only of the game, but also the emotional side of things and how to deal with challenges. Um people don't quite understand the challenges that boys have in top schools like ourselves. I mean, from 15 years old, you've got agents and rugby people and everybody sort of speaking into these kids' lives. Uh we spoke about it this morning saying, you know, you listen to a top-end game commentary at on Super Sport, which is our national TV broadcaster, and people might be mentioning kids' names and things that they're doing wrong on the field, but they don't quite understand what that player is going through off the field. So when he on a Sunday morning puts the game on, he's hearing his name in a in a in a in a way that he might not want to hear it. So these boys are going through a lot of pressure, social media, professional contract, decisions in their lives, and all they really are is still just schoolboys trying to play rugby for Power Boys High. That's that's what they're really there for. You know, they want to make their school proud, they want to make parents proud, everything else. And I think that's where the shift comes in, is that our philosophy or our intention with the boys are like, yeah, that's all part of the game, and that's why you obviously want to play it later. But being a good man and the values that come with faith, family, and team are going to be something that your kids will need from you one day. Um, and that's why I say is in the past, boys didn't have those pressure, didn't have that pressure, and traditionally in South African sort of schools and families, everybody woke up on a Sunday morning and went to church because that was part of religion. And I'm just talking from my own experience, not on behalf of anybody else. And I'd walk out there and not really have got any message or anything sort of out of it. And I think that's why when I started coaching, I kept saying to myself, there's a better way. There's so many amazing things that you can share with faith and rugby together with the boys, that doesn't necessarily mean that you have to be hardcore to the point about things, but you can use examples of in boys' lives to get that message across and to understand that God will always be there no matter what happens in rugby and everything else, and you don't need to stress about it, just enjoy it because your path is already determined and your book was written beautifully, so yeah.
SPEAKER_00Oh, you mate the the amount of great quotes you've just said in that statement, Sean, is unreal. I love that one. One day I'll be asked how many hearts of one, not how many games of one. When you actually reflect on comments like that, you really sort of go, it's a it's a wake-up call if you if you're not thinking about that, right? Um I I also love what you said about using the game as almost a vehicle for faith and values. Yeah. Using the innate love of this board to help drive good values in in young men, right? Yeah. Yeah. How how how how is the pressures you talked about the pressures there? Um particularly at traditional, uh, exceptionally good rugby schools like yourself on young men. And you talked about that kids are almost being treated like experienced pros in the media when they're just kids. How do you actually, you know, relieve some of that pressure? Like, have you got any specific things you guys do to help yeah, you know, young men navigate that, or or woman if you're at a girl's school, to navigate these pressures which are different than 20 years ago?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, so I think we we always we we have a sort of I have this thing I say to the boys, belly to belly, I'm like belly to belly, big Tom. So um we sort of go front-on with everything. We we really like get down to it, like there's no secrets, there's no hiding
Pressure Social Media And Perspective
SPEAKER_02anything. And if something comes up, we talk about it, we talk about social media, we talk about what people are saying about us. We it's no use hiding it. You can't say to the boys, don't look at your Instagram, don't look at your TikTok, don't look at this, don't look at that. You can't say it to them because even us as adults, we know when you browse through your phone and you just you just catch a glimpse of Facebook, Sean Erasmus, somebody commented something, whatever. What is our human nature? We sort of go, we want to look. You know, and after a good weekend, you tend to want to look more because we for some reason feel that we get this from people. Like, you know, people have to tell us how good we are. And once again, I'm sort of preaching to myself because I often want to equate my value to what people think about me, but that's not really important because the same person that heroes you is gonna zero you the next day. So that's just the way that it is. So so we talk to the boys often about that. You know, I I obviously pick up on things and then I and I'd go to the two guys and say to them, listen, guys, you know, everybody's writing about how amazing you guys are this weekend. Next weekend we take a shot, and then they're gonna tell you how terrible you are. So let's put that in context. Like, oh, it's great to hear people think we're good. So now we've got a now we've got this wooden box to stand on and inspire people from that point of view with what we are, our team culture and what we stand for, rather than focus on, well, you know, I'm so great and I'm awesome. Um rather let's use that that that sort of opportunity that we have to inspire people differently by the way that we continue to grow and play as a team instead of taking it to heart and going, yeah, well, you know, I'm the best. Um and and we've got you we've got to talk to the boys about it. Um you know, they just they just quietly start moving away, and then you know somebody said something in social media or during a game or something that's offended this kid because that is what they are, they're kids, they're young men. They don't know how to to sort of go they might come up because they're big boys and go, like, I don't care what people say, or but deep down inside it's really eating away at them, and then it influences who they are off field and uh uh obviously on field eventually.
SPEAKER_00Isn't it uh isn't it a a a massive truth that particularly in modern young rugby players, they look like men with with ath the athletic bodies that are being built today, they could easily just slide into a professional environment with no qualms in terms of athletic ability. But then inside that it's often pubescent young boys that are still brain developing, emotional regulating, all these things, right, which if you just looked at the exterior, you would see a grown man. But what you're not seeing is is is the immature mind and the developing mind underneath it, right?
SPEAKER_02100%. Yeah, and we spoke about it again this morning. I spoke to one of my management team and I said, you know, we're unhappy about how one of the boys handled this uh situation and and he was sort of like, you know, I wanted him to do it this way and do it that way. And I said, you know, then you gotta tell him. You've got to like bring him in and go, like, listen, yeah, this is my expectation of you handling this emotional situation. Instead of just walking past and saying sorry about that and walking away, you know, teach him to engage and talk about it and go like, you know, I'm unhappy about your conduct and the way that you handled it, and this is how I thought it'd be good if you spoke to me about it, because what's gonna happen with him one day is he's gonna get married and have children and then not know how to handle that even then. So instead of getting angry about it, which we all do, Jeep is sometimes I want to drag these guys behind the behind the tractor or something like that and get really upset with them. But you know, when you walk away, my wife often goes, like, just remember that they're boys. They're boys. So so unless you teach them how you want them to see what you do, same as with the analysis, the technical side is do you see what I'm seeing as the coach? You've got to also say to them, Are you hearing and seeing how I want you to deal with this emotional side of things? So you've got to sort of like, and they don't want to do that because they they they amongst 900 other boys, you know. I think somebody said the other day, like, vulnerability can be a sign of weakness. And I said, No, vulnerability is actually a sign of the compassion and the willingness that you have to steep down to a level where somebody can see that there's something deeper in you than just what you what you're showing. And when we are prepared to be vulnerable in front of the boys, they will be prepared to be vulnerable in front of us, and we must never forget that because that makes them better men uh one day is when they are prepared to be vulnerable. And nobody wants to go there because jeep is you're working in a top 10 school, and you know, these guys must perform and they're not doing that. And and and I say to the guys, when we close the door here as coaches, we talk hard about the effort and the skill about the boys. But when we go out there, we've always got to sort of take them to a place where, guys, we're proud of you, we this, we that, and we prepare to go be vulnerable with them because that's what they need. And I've lots of times made that mistake as a coach where you're under pressure to perform and then you get negative really quickly. And I I've got a good coaching team around me that said to me this year, like, don't get negative, just stand away from it, you know, because they can see that they can see that and feel that from you. So just step way back from it. And we need to all sort of keep each other accountable like that when we work with with boys, and even with professional players at times, you know, coaching Super Rugby at the Lions Curry Cup, um, Vodacom Cup with the Sharks. I often sort of think even with those men, they also sometimes just deserve to see the non-technical uh let's get down to business side of Sean Erasmus, you know. Um and yes, they are professional people that do it for a living, but there's the key word, they're also just people. So even there, the way that you sometimes deal with the players, there's got to be that's some form of there's vulnerability in in your situation and why you're not playing well at the moment, for example. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00Jeez, I love it, mate. I love it. I I love love that concept that almost a rugby field is like the last classroom of the day at a school, isn't it? A hundred percent. Where you're using it um as an educational tool to help young men in in your case, young men gr grow gro grow outside just the game. And and I agree with you too, like it it doesn't change. In in where you've been with the Lions and the Sharks, everyone's always looking to grow and get better as a human on the whole. How do you you you your Paul has uh 33 teams rugby teams? How do you dis disseminate that? Like how do you spread your as the as the the lead on the on the coaching? How do you spread that throughout the the whole program? How do you get like a consistency across all the various teams from your your M, your muffins, which is your bottom team in the open grade, right? The social side, the legends and the muffins. Um, how do you get the same messaging broadly out when you can only commit to say our team? How do you how are you able to you know spread and evangelize your values across a bigger program?
SPEAKER_02So I think that remains the biggest challenge. It's something we always talk about. And uh
Vulnerability That Builds Trust
SPEAKER_02once again, this morning uh I had Emil van Yedlin that's playing for the Sharks, and he was part of our team in 2017, he's playing locked for the sharks now in the URC, and he was actually sitting here this morning, we were having coffee together, and we were talking about um you know, sort of that like blueprint and the coaching and the philosophy around bringing everything together. And you know, we were talking about his time at school and how he experienced what we were trying to put in and and that's sort of getting through. And I said to him, you know, like that's the remains probably the biggest challenge, and the big buzzword is director over Rigby now. You know, everybody's talking about well, everybody needs to have a director over Rigby. Whereas I feel you just need to put together a team of people that can do exactly what you just said now, because our biggest challenge probably and something that our parents always want is okay, Sean, what you're doing with the first team and what the eight team coaches are doing with with those guys, why can't the E and F guys also have that? And they're a hundred percent right, because they deserve to have that, otherwise they won't develop um and they won't have the opportunity to get better. So So it is something that I don't think we've got right yet. Um, and we try and we've got a uh we call it coaching the coaches where we get together as often as possible with all the coaches and then talk about uh trends in the game and and and how they could get uh become part of our blueprint that we have because we do have a technical blueprint right throughout of the lingo that we use and how we want to defend and how we want to kick and how we want to sort of attack and and and all of that, the technical side of things. Um and then we we do talk about the emotional side and team culture and trying to push that, but you've also got to respect that some of the those teams might only have an hour um in getting things together. So what we've done is we've got I've got all my 18 coaches together in the beginning of the year, and we run our A and B teams together. So our under 19 A and B will be one squad, our 16 A and B, 14 A and B, and then our C and D will be a squad, E and F will be a squad, G and H will be a squad. And then we try and get those coaches together and we go away at the end of the or in the beginning of the season, and we we first put the rugby things to bed. We all agree on how we want to play, what do we want to be known for, um, what what what is our sort of um our skill level and what is our our player um sort of um identity look like how we want to play. But then we also sit down and we talk about this culture, you know, like what are we? And it was interesting the first time we sat down. We have something here, we we we talk about the boys eye man, like what does he look like? Um, and when you ask people to write down, okay, write down three things what you think the boys eye man is like, nobody could agree on that. Everybody had a different um sort of idea of what the boys eye man looked like. And then we sort of go to the school values of good scholar, good sportsmanship, um, all our values that we sort of we stand for as a school, and we talk about how we can be better there. And and I must say that is something that needs to be better within our program, is that we need to sort of somehow get those values into the boys. And I always talk to my coaches just about I think the key thing for us is we always talk about if he was your son, how would you feel about the way that you're talking to him, working with him in the team environment, would you be happy? And if you say yes, I'm happy with that, then okay, that can go. That can go in the team environment. But if you go like, yeah, I if I was standing out there listening to your half-time talk or the way that you're correcting him and he was my son, I I would have something to say about it, then we then we try and be different, him try and be better. Um, but that that is a big challenge, especially with a big rugby program like we have, is trying to get those values all the way down. Because values, once again, is just a really big word. It's the implementation and sort of putting it in so that it makes sense for everybody. Um, that's the challenge.
SPEAKER_00It is the challenge. And I think it's a fascinating thing you talked about there where you said you couldn't all agree essentially on what the identity was. And I think that's a really good question for a coach, a wider coaching group to come and chat about because if you guys can't agree on what it is, it's it's not there, is it? It's a bit higgledy-pooggledy all over the show. So I I guess that's the same with your players. You want your players to say, how do we play and what do we do? You want them to go this, this, this, and everyone's like, Yeah, that's that's our identity, that's who we are. So I th I think that's an awesome, even yearly, pre-season, mid-yearly, just that constant check-in, right? To say, Yeah, are we all doing the same thing here? Are we all singing off the same hymn sheet around what we're doing?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, we we're very lucky in that sense as well, that our sort of coaching teams are they're good men. You know, that's one thing I always say to people when we put them together, we talk about are these are these so they're good coaches and they're good men. And that's really important because they are, you know, I I'm always proud when I stand next to the field and see how they talk to the boys and they work with them. They're good men. I'd be happy if my son was there. Um, and that so so even if you don't align in values, those coaches' values must still then rub off on the players, and then it's also not a bad thing because each year you've got a different man with different good values rubbing off on the kid, and then you get that sort of holistic what do you call it? Holistic picture of it, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, what do you call that? Holistic hole.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, that's yeah. What's it? Yeah, holistic yeah, the whole holistic what is it? What is it? It's not a view, it's a holistic feel in the team almost.
SPEAKER_00I feel like there's a great phrase out there, Sean, that that would sum that up. I just can't think of it off the top of my head. But is is there a do you do you value a difference in any the values or like as you go through, so say you're under 13s, 14s, 15s, 16s, all the way up, and you have your set coaches for say the A and B of each? Do you value a bit of diversity in each age group around the values that come in, the type of coach that's there? Or do you would you prefer it though that's all pretty streamlined so it's all leading up to the top, or do you like that difference to say, you know, you have a real different coach for the 13s than you would for the 14s, and then it changes again for the 16s? What do you have any philosophy around how you structure that coaching mix?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, definitely. When we put together the coaching teams, we talk about at our under 14s, we want somebody that's gonna be strong on their discipline side. Um, because these are kids coming in from all different primary schools. Now they have different rules and structures in different primary schools, and now they come in. So that guy that's sort of coaching that under-14 team, he's got to be strong discipline coach, he's got to have good values, he's got to understand who Boys Eye is and what what our culture is and what we stand for because those are gonna be his pillars of introducing those boys into the boys' eye way, um, you know, of what we stand for as a school. And then at the same time, he's also got to have that sort of like ability to work with kids at 13, 14, he's got to have that fatherly instinct sort of thing. And and um our coaches that are working there now have actually all got kids, younger kids, um, that are sort of in line with that age group and they have worked in that age group successfully. Um and if you look at our under-14s, they're one of the top five schools at the moment in the country. But I said to him yesterday when he was in my office, I said to him, like, I'm just so proud of what I see, how that group has just come together. Because I think if you had to ask me to coach under-14s, I'd be the worst ever. I just wouldn't be able to do it. I have so much respect for guys working with under 14s because they ask a lot of questions, they're busy, you know, when you're working here, the others are sort of running there, and it's so he's just so awesome at what he does. Um and then an under-15 coach, you know, they sort of like they're going in that try into that transition in South African schools. Your grade eights are like they are big focus, the matrix are all
Scaling Culture Across 33 Teams
SPEAKER_02over them, and sort of trying to put them into shape and get them in shape, and it's all discipline, discipline, and you've got to do this and you've got to do that. Then when grade nine, it's all almost like going from that storm of always being involved with everything and having to do everything in the school. Suddenly go into the grade nine year where you you've got a little bit more freedom and you're suddenly developing your your voice is breaking, and there's a lot of other things happening in life, and people sort of like look at you funnily because your arms are getting longer and your body is getting all weird and everything else. So you need like, you know, again, we've got a coach there that's like amazing with those guys, you know. When he talks, he talks their language, you know. Sometimes I just listen to him and I think I don't know what you're saying, but it's making a lot of sense, you know, and he's so good with him. Um, and and once again, his culture and his values and what he stands for. He also played rugby and he's still pretty young. Um, and he he loves to experiment, and that's what we want to see at that age group is seeing how they develop because now your lock is suddenly starting to look like a flank or a or a center, even, and your prop is looking like a hooker now, and he's so good with that, um, placing players and putting them in the right places. And and last year they struggled a bit. This team, they were really like not even in the top 10 contention last year, and suddenly they're in this top five, just because I believe of how that coaching staff is nurturing them and giving them the opportunity to express themselves, whereas somebody else might go, like, no, you're gonna do this, you're gonna do this, you're gonna play like this, and it won't suit them at all because they're not in that stage of their life. And then with our under 16s, uh, is the head coach is somebody that worked with me. He's just an amazing man. He's like, he's such a good man. He's in our leadership in school, he speaks boys' eye. When he opens his mouth, he's just boys' eye. And with him is another guy that's like very much a disciplinary guy and um sort of more hard, straight to the point. And then CJ Stunder, who's a British Lion Um and played uh um for the Bulls, is also part of that coaching team. And he the the respect that the boys have for those three guys and his knowledge of the game and the way that he shares um sort of inspires that group again to a whole new different level. And we often talk about how our under-16s are junior first team, and with with with our under-16 coach being part of having been part of the first team coaching staff for a few years, he knows exactly what the demands are and what's coming for them next year. So he's already starting to give them little pieces of that um and and sort of putting that into their armor, handling the pressure, uh tempo of the game, being a good man, um, putting all those things in. So, yes, definitely when we s when we thought about putting together this coaching team, uh Neil De Brain, who's at the Bills now, was was was our director of Rekby last year, and him and I coached super rugby together. So I always felt like we were just an amazing team last year with him. Yeah, he often spoke about also like putting together that coaching team and and within their diversity, that being our strength, um putting them together. And I I think he did a great job.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I love I love the thought that's gone into that. I I'm not sure if many schools would have that level of thought that goes into the each age group, but I think I think it's a really great one that specularly the importance of that first year when everyone's coming from different places to instill the boys' high way, essentially, with a bit of discipline. Yeah, you've got kids, young kids, young boys running all over the show to have someone that can just from day one get them buying into everything your your place values, right? From the outset, so you're not having to redo it at sixteens or once they get to the high school the the top team, it's from the outset, isn't it? You're an experienced established coach. Yeah, 100%. Would would you say it's almost one of your most important um appointments from a school perspective is that that first year?
SPEAKER_02Definitely. You know, yeah, and I mean for that coach, obviously he aspires, you know. When you chat to him, he says, I I I I have this, I want to coach a first team one day. So he's aspiring to that. So he also does he doesn't want to feel like you you're boxing him as an under-14 coach. You know, and that's that's probably the biggest challenge when you're putting together the coaching team, is to have every coach also like the players buy into what is their value and what is their place at this time in uh uh in the school right now, and what's important with his role um right now is for him to also buy into that. And again, I think that under-14 age group, like in the beginning, they were like cheapers, you know, like we were hoping sort of going up under 16s, sort of coaching there because we feel we really want to make an impact there. And uh when Neil and I sat down with him, we said, listen, yeah, like you guys are gonna be fantastic with our under 14s, and and that's now the next part for us is how we keep upskilling those coaches to feel that they're not gonna stay down there for the rest of their life, and also then balance what is the need for the school because they are very good for the school at the moment um and for the boys with what they're doing there. Um, and yeah, like I say, I I I'm I'm probably never be a good junior coach, 14 and 15s, because I've always just worked with older boys. Um, so I don't think I'd be good there because that's not my niche, that's not what I do. So um, yeah, it's it's important to try and find that balance with the coaches and with the teams.
SPEAKER_00Certainly that young age group does test your patience at times, right?
SPEAKER_02Wow. I think some of my hardest coaching is sorry, no, you go. No, I was saying when I started coaching um earning my stripes, I sort of literally I grew up in a Tel KZN, so I coached every single age group from under eight to senior men. And I always say to people, like at that time I was coaching like maybe four teams at once. So I was coaching uh Glenwood first team, so under eighteens, and I was coaching um under 20s at Club Collegiance, and I was with the Sharks Academy with like your in between 19 to 23 year olds, and then I was coaching uh KZN um under eight clubs, and and the guy that was sort of coaching there was one of my mentors, and he said, No, you must come and coach with me. And I said, under eights, and he's like, Yeah, you're gonna do the forwards, I'm gonna do the backs, and I was like, Oh no, and he's like, Listen, yeah, it's a provincial team, just get stuck in there, go. And I was like, I I I really don't want to. And the first day we got together, I was like, I got home, my wife was like, You look terrible, what's going on? I was like, Wow, I had like 30 under eights trying to coach a line out, and this guy's like one guy's asking questions the whole time. Where do where do I stand? How do I stand? What in this guy? So it was such a challenge, but amazing to see when they go on the field and you think like you spent one productive hour with them and they did one good thing. It was like, tick, I'll take it and I'll run. And it was yeah, it was just the nice part about the game, I think, without any pressure, just watching these guys play and then half fives and everybody, but I just walked away from it. And I said to Ian, I was the mentor at that time, and I said, I'm sorry, I'm not gonna do it next year, and then the following year I had to do under tens with him, and I was like, Yes, he's keeping me humbled with this. Um, but yeah, really down to the core nitty-gritties of coaching at that level for sure.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I love it, mate. It's so nice hearing it because I think and I think when once you go down and coach that level, you really appreciate a coach that can just um control an environment of that age, you just go full respect. That's it's a it's a blessing to a program when you have uh coaches with the ability to coach young young children. It's it's incredible. 100% incredible. Um and and and in your environment, what's the um a lot of school rugby has one one of the most difficult things to navigate is often the wider shareholders, in particular parents. Um, what's it like at Paul? Uh what what are your what are your parents like and how do you ensure that they're they're essentially shareholders in in their boys' rugby. How do you manage that uh successfully?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it is something that's definitely got harder over time. When I think when I started coaching, uh you wouldn't often see parents, uh you'd see them at the games and uh more and more you have parents sort of attending training and watching and uh probably commenting on on what they think about it and we we often speak about it here at school. Um I think sometimes you get um parents that sort of come in and just they're just ruthless at times, uh with respect. Um and then you get parents that come in here and they just want to talk about their son. And I I so my son matriculated last year at Paul Boys. Um he was a really good rugby player, and then when we moved to the Lions in 2018, he uh dove into a pool and he broke his neck. Um and yeah, miraculously, like I think God still has big plans for him in his life, and he everybody thought he was going to be paralyzed neck down, and he sort of recovered from that miraculously, and and we're really grateful to God for that miracle in our lives with my son. And then he had to play hockey, and he was a hooker like his father, so he was nice and physical and loved the rough, tough things about Rekby, and
Choosing Coaches By Age Group Needs
SPEAKER_02suddenly he had a hockey stick in his hand, and um, we would often watch the hockey coach trying to teach him not to run into players and bully them with trying to get the ball away, but use skill in the stick. And the reason why I tell that story is because when he got to Matrick in his final year, he became a second team captain of the hockey side, and my office to the head of hockey's office is probably like 50 metres away, and I can't tell you the amount of times that I walked 40 metres and turned around and came back to my office because I wanted to go and ask the head of hockey, who's a good friend of mine here, um, why are you not giving my son an opportunity off the bench, even if it's just once, um, to go there? And then one night, like in the middle of the season, my son and I were having a bra, which is your barbecue, but it's only really known as a bra. Um, and we were sitting down, and I said to um, I want to share with you like um my heart about that I feel I want to go and talk to the coach because you deserve to get a chance off the bench, and and I was sort of like motivating where I wanted to go. My son said to me, Dad, you know what? Um the boy that's playing there deserves it more than I do, and he's better than me at the moment, so I need to be better before I get that opportunity. And I I was like, Yeah, I I was really taken back by that. I thought to myself, like, all this time I just wanted to do something for him, but he is the one reflecting about where he is at the moment and he's happy where he is. And I think it too talks to the point what you said now about it made me reflect that everybody's just a dad with a son. That's that's all that it is. Well, they're just parents loving their son, they just want the best for them. And I always say to them when we get together in the beginning of the year, we talk about I tell I get all the parents together and I say to them, This is how I'm gonna run the program, this is what you can expect from me. I'm gonna be brutally honest, I'm gonna be belly to belly, but I'm gonna love your son like he's mine. It's gonna be up and down, and I've had I have the hardest job to only hand out 15 jerseys at a time. But when I do that, I want you to know that it's gonna be with a good heart, it's gonna have been thought through, it's gonna be fair, it's gonna be all the stats, everything's gonna be included, and then there's also gonna be a part about is he a good man for the team, which is gonna weigh a lot, and um, that's how we're gonna do it. And then when there's an issue with the way that I pick the team, the first way that we're gonna deal with it, your son's gonna walk in and have a conversation with me, and I'm going to respect him behind a closed door and tell him why I feel like I do at the moment, and we're gonna talk about how we're gonna make him better, and then we're gonna work on it, and if that's still not good enough, and you still feel you want to come and see me, then I'm going to respect you as a parent walking in here and going, I love my son, and this is why I want to talk to you about where he is at the moment. And when that happens that way, I'm going to be, I'm going to give you all the time that you need as a parent, because I respect that. But when parents walk in and they go, uh, you being unfair, you this, and they attack my character and my integrity, um, then I'm not going to be as approachable as what they want me to be. Because we sit as coaches what a lot of people don't know. We sit from Saturday when there's a lot when everybody goes for a cup of coffee and weekends and awesome time. We sit with the pressure of the result of the game. We sit with the pressure of knowing that the second team want to play for the first team. And then after the game, we sit with the pressure of the result. We sit with the pressure of what everybody thought about us in the team. And then the biggest pressure that we sit with on a Sunday when we do analysis is how are we going to pick this team again and avoid more disappointment and minimize the way that the players feel about not being in the team. And that's something that I think parents don't understand about schoolboy rugby with a lot of our way, the way that we approach it here, is for us it's never about um oh, I don't like this kid, I'm not gonna pick him. That's never ever been spoken about, ever. It's actually been debated for hours and hours about who's best for the team and the way that we pick the team. And then the next part of the discussion is how we manage that damage or that emotional sort of part that that player is gonna feel now that's really close to the team. And then when everybody's on that same page about understanding that process, then the conversation is a lot easier. But it has become harder because of the social media pressure, the pressure of getting a contract after school, the pressure of playing for a provincial team, and all the pressure, and then the biggest pressure is probably the disappointment of the parent just focusing only on his child alone and then feeling like everybody around him's son is playing first team and his son isn't. And all of that I'm prepared to neg to negate and to talk about if it's done in the right way and it's done respectfully where a parent walks in and goes like listen Sean I know where your heart is but I want you to explain to me how we're going to get my son better and then I'm all in. And that's something that I I I like to talk to my parents about and it's something that's a hard thing amongst the big schools when the coaches get together is always is how to handle that pressure because when a son is playing you might easily have a very nice hollow on a Saturday morning to where the son's not playing to being ignored and sort of lampasted about a son not making the team so back to your question about how do we handle that is um my perception about it is you love your son that's why you want to talk to me and I'm gonna I'm gonna my door's gonna be open for that I love it and it's probably really important too that that you really establish with parents what your values are so it's not just establishing it with the players but the parents need to know what sort of human being you are too right so you've almost got to bring them under your wing like not just the values for the players but parents this is what I stand for.
SPEAKER_00Did do you do you do that like do you have meetings with parents?
SPEAKER_02Is that is that something you put in place yeah I definitely in the beginning of the season I get the parents together and then I and I talk to them and in the past I've sort of like uh not shared my heart as much as what I should have I think in in that instance and and always talk about our values and and what we stand for as a team and that's something I've always done but this year I said to the parents having been through a tough year the year before last and sort of just having to endure people being nasty at times about about how they feel about the coaching staff and uh I sort of said to the parents this year I said to them one thing I want to start off with is is that I'm just a normal person like you are as well number one. The second thing is is I want your son to be the best that he possibly can and I'm going to treat your son like I treat my son. So I probably spend more time with your son than I do with my own son. And I and I told them I said to them that my son wrote Matric last year and him and I at the end of his matrix year when he got his results and everything had a beer together for the first time as father and son and I said to him I I said to them the biggest disappointment about that whole discussion was how my son at one point told me that you know that you spend more time I heard more about you from my friends that what you and I spend together because I'm always away on tours and I'm always with the team. So I missed a big part of my son for your son. So then when people do come in and want to sort of take me on about that I that I said to the parents it goes to an emotional level where I where I um I'm I'm hurt about that because if I'm if I'm a bad person and I talk badly about your son and I'm not I don't have his interest at heart why would my son tell me that he hears more about me from the boys in the team than what he hears from his own father because I'm spending that amount of time with them shaping them and turning them into good men and good rugby players and spending that little time with my son. So I said to them when you then phone me at six o'clock at night when I'm with my family and you scream at me because you're unhappy about your son not making the team just remember that that time I'm with my family and when you put the phone down and you've let go of everything got everything off your chest everything that you've got off your chest is now sitting on my shoulders and on my chest and then when I walk into my family's home my wife will go like you can't be like that because we don't see you and this is our time now where we sit down have dinner together and you can just see that weight on me. So I just said to my parents this year like you guys have to respect that us as coaches are also just humans trying our best and doing the best with these kids and you need to think before you say something to coaches because that sits with us. It's like a bad comment in the media about not being a good coach when a parent says like you're destroying my son's future it's a bit of a rough comment to make when I'm the one spending the most time with your son more than I'm doing with my family. So I think that's that's something that we spoke about this year with the parents got quite vulnerable with them about that and said to them like I don't mind you talking to me about your son but it's got to be done in such a way that you and I both walk away from the conversation being happy that nothing was left on each other's chest or shoulders I love that in South Africa of all places as a rugby mad it's it's like religion itself isn't it it's the the passion and the knowledge and the it's it's unlike anywhere else right yeah yeah yeah and we I mean that comes with my job so you know like I I understand that and I and I love that part about it and that's probably uh I always say to my wife Jesus maybe I should have sold computers or done something else with my life or whatever like and she said you would last two or three days and you'd want it back because you love it. You you love that part of it. Now and I do I enjoy that part of the pressure I enjoy I enjoy being able to put positive things into people's life and yes does it come with some negative things? Yes it does but I think what I've learnt over 28 years of coaching now is is that unless you tell people what you don't like and unless you tell people how that affects you they probably never know so they probably don't do it on purpose but they also just once again being parents sharing um their feeling about their son. So then I also want to share how I feel about what you just said and I think then that sort of levels the playing field to a to a certain extent does.
SPEAKER_00And I hope this isn't personal question here, Sean, but do you reckon that um that incident with your son jumping in the pool and breaking his neck do you reckon that's shaped you? Because you're you're a really um open, heart on sleeve share your vulnerability. Do you reckon that experience personally has helped shape the way you lead in your coaching and your environment and the values you talk about because of that scare early in life? Has it affected you and and your coaching?
SPEAKER_02Sorry I'm gonna get emotional now but um yeah um I think it's probably something that I take away from that is often I I reflect and think well if I didn't take a professional opportunity to go to the Lions and stay at Power Boys over that time my son would probably still be playing rugby maybe um one. So and then yeah I often think about um my responsibility for other people's sons that I have um to be good at what I do because yeah they travel with me in a bus I coach them I want them to be physical I mean two years ago we had uh eighth man that nearly died from a concussion on the field um and I I I sat the whole night outside theater with him um and I had to hear people coming out of the theatre going like this kid's probably not going to make it tonight and I I often sat there and I nearly stopped coaching because of that because I thought to myself you know like I'm I'm a defense coach I'm an old hooker and I we want to be physical and rugby is a contact sport and you talk to the boys about come on get in there get physical like be physical stop momentum do this and do that and then if you don't coach that well or you don't um do the right things technically as a coach or you don't sort
Parents As Stakeholders With Boundaries
SPEAKER_02of take care for boys you know I could easily be the reason that somebody gets hurt so yeah you know when my son lay there that night I thought to myself Jeepers you know I'm lying here and maybe I'm worrying about him never playing rugby again but that I don't actually care about that. I care about well who's gonna who he's gonna be one day married and grandchildren for myself and my wife and being I'd rather have him as a son than as a be a rugby coach. So yeah. Mate I couldn't agree with you more and I I think it's really topical that as coaches in this sport we are asking young men to to go into pres you know some pretty uh rough situations right so the fact that people know that your level of care is there parents and players I think is a massively important component and yours speaks volumes Sean just um the way you speak mate is is absolutely beautiful and I and I think it's a testament to yourself and I think the school would be proud to have uh a leader like yourself leading these young men mate so yeah testament to you so what do you think mate what what do you think I like to ask this question mate is how what do you reckon Pole boys when they're sitting around the Bri in ten years time they've left school under your tutelage what do you hope what do you hope they say about the the environment that they came through at school I often reflect on that and I think um yeah like with Emil this morning and Yvonne Rus and some of the other boys that I've worked with um when they come back and they come and sit here on my couch in my office and drink a cup of coffee with me and they don't talk about rugby. It makes me happy when they talk about the good times we had on tour and the funny things that happened and and they walk out and I think we did not once talk about do you remember that time when we beat that school or whatever but they talk about do you remember that tour do you remember what you did there do you remember like that you know and then I I I always say to people like first prize for me is winning hearts for Jesus that's like that's my thing. Second thing for me is is when the guys phone me 12 o'clock whatever time of the night and they phone from different countries where they're playing now and whatever and they go just it's one of the tell you bad luck for the weekend and we believe in you you're a good man just keep you know they don't talk about rugby they just talk about those values that we that we've always instilled. And then the most important thing that I always say to them is when you come back here one day and you bring your son or your daughter and your wife and you come and introduce them that's going to be the best part of my day is when your wife is smiling and she's happy because you're a good man. Because rugby will come and go. We will uh I always use the analogy when I talk to the boys I said what do you want to be one day do you want to be that guy that stands around the briar with a beer can in your hand with a jean on and your first team rugby jersey sitting halfway up your stomach with your stomach sticking out and talking about a game and how heavy tackle you made and whatever or do you want to be that man standing bragging about how amazing wife and family you have and the values and the good your good son that you are that you have because that's what's going to make me happy it makes me happy when I walk in town yeah and people talk to me about my son
What Alumni Remember Years Later
SPEAKER_02currently and say yes he's a good man. Your son is such a good man Matthew is such a good man Sean like well done yes he's a good man and wherever he goes we've given him a gap yeah and wherever he goes he's a good man then I feel like better than anyone because that's that's who my son's destined to be one day and I I guess that's the same for me with all the boys is like we all want to win we all want to do well and yes that's what we do for a living and people often tell me like don't forget that you had to coach rugby and win games and whatever and I say I'll never forget that I never forget that but winning is a byproduct of an amazing culture. That's what it is no matter what you say or what you do you know teams don't win consistently without good team cultures and then again that winning must be broken up and what does winning look like? Is it on the scoreboard? Is it in family? Is it in the school is it at your home yesterday a father said his son has become better in this and this and I said to him that's a win for me and he's like yeah but he still hasn't played first team I said that's okay that's okay that that that part of his destiny will still come into play but you've just told me your son's better at his behavior and his discipline and in class and whatever like that. So we're on the right path and I think that's that's probably something that I I would want to be remembered for is that when boys talk about me they talk about the good times that they had with me the laughs I like to uh I I like to get down with the boys play a bit of music talk rugby stories and you know bride together and make food together and when we tour we never stay in a boarding house we always stay like in our home environment and then I let them shop they've got a budget and they've got a shop and then I we do a master chef and we taste food and I've had some terrible food and I've had some great food and we we always just laugh about those tours and those times together and when they when they come back and they talk about me being that person for them that person for them and that's the reason why I started coaching is is at school I had a coach that was that person for me that some things I couldn't discuss with my dad I would talk to him about it and he would listen without judgment and he would give advice and he was fair and he always he was a good man. That's who I want to be for the boys that I coach. I want them to talk about not how good technical coach or defense coach or whatever I was I want them to talk about he was a good man. He understood me he supported me he was there when things were really tough in my life and it wasn't just about Rakeby that's who I want to be that's who I want to be remembered for. Because we're all going to be on our knees one day and then God's going to ask us like what did you do with your talent that I gave you and I feel that my talent is working with young men. That's I I associate with them I can talk to them and I I understand them and that's my talent so hopefully I honour God with that talent that he's given me Sean that is a powerful and unbelievably fantastic statement my friend to finish mate we've got one more question um and it's one that we generally ask um to finish this podcast because it does trigger a lot of things and the question is this um what is one belief you hold about schoolboy rugby that that that you think a lot of your contemporaries or other coaches might that you believe in that you reckon your contemporaries might disagree with about schoolboy rugby I think probably number one thing is is that our focus will always remain to um bring good men uh to make good men uh from from schoolboy because schools are now competitive environments whether we like it or not they are competitive environments yet uh within that competitive environment a kid comes to school every day with things that we don't know about um so when we work we've got to first work with a man before we work with a player um we our responsibility remains to fill the holes and gaps that have been left with modern technology and everything else coming into play um players don't have rugby IQ necessarily anymore because they don't watch the game they only play it and the reason why they play it is is because they enjoy it they they want something from the game
One Belief About Schoolboy Rugby
SPEAKER_02so we've got to decide what that is that we give them from the game I said to my boys last year I put 400 Rand on the desk and I said the Springbox played last weekend name one to fifteen and that money is yours and the best was seven out of fifteen that they could name and the reason why I did that is is to to again prove the point that these guys are not playing the game for the reasons that we did it. My wall was full of all the Springbox and sharks where I grew up because I loved them they were heroes they were people that I looked up to the boys don't understand that part of the game and we've we've got the responsibility to fill all those gaps that they don't have with modern day challenges in family homes families being broken difficulties at school challenges financial challenges at home all these different things so our job remains as head coaches of big programs to first identify who is that player who is he what is he here for what does he want to achieve and then go side by side with rugby and use rugby as that vehicle to help this kid be better in those environments and fulfill those things because again that is a big thing that I believe in is rugby brings all these players into the room what do we send them out with what what where what do we what do we leave them with and again like I said using Emil as reference and I hope he doesn't mind me sharing this is 2017 Emil is a two-meter lock at school phenomenal rugby play he's not playing first team because his focus is not necessarily on certain things in his life at that moment and while we were on tour in New Zealand him and I had a hard chat about certain things and he sat on my couch today sharing that one of the media asked him about it and he he shared that you know he was a typical young man at that time with a lot of other things going on not bad things but just you know life was just really enjoyable and I was sort of going like you know it could be all of that and you could honour your talent as a rugby player and I think if if we sometimes don't have hard chats with boys and we are scared to put being a good man in front of everything else then we miss the point with these players because we're not doing them a favor. I I I would love to always be the good cop and the nice guy but sometimes I've got to be that guy that drives standards not only on the field but also off the field and I often say to the boys afterwards after school when we get together and they want to buy me a beer then we we sit and I talk there and they go yes but you are like hardcore sometimes like you know we'd want to go that way and you were like no this way and you were like always like the that guy like the hard guy but then they always talk about me as a father figure as well and then I say to them that's what I have to be I've got to be that guy that drives the standards on and off the field. I've got to keep you accountable but I'm also at the same time keeping myself accountable to my job and my blessing and my talent as a leader for you at that stage in your life. So and I think that remains thing and a lot of times I watch coaches and everybody's talking in South Africa about schoolboy rugby being out of control at the moment with lots of money and bursaries and everything else going on there and they say like how do you feel about it and I say well the way that we control our environment at Paul Boys High at the moment and the way that we work with the boys I'm quite happy with the way that it's going because we're definitely not putting winning as the first prize on the field. We are putting winning off the field as the first prize we are busy making better men and then if somebody then does get an opportunity to be a rugby player after school because of that why should we stand in the way of the high performance environment that pushes being a good man first because everybody in our lives even men adults if you had to say to me now Sean would you want to be the Springbok coach or you could have it right now I would take it because that's something that I want so why do we want to take away opportunities or high performance environments as long as they are well suited and well controlled and they have the right values and it's not just all about winning on the field then I'm all for a high performance environment Sean I couldn't agree with you more and and the way you worded and articulated that I think a lot of people would be clapping and and toasting to that statement my friend if I may I'd I'd love to wrap up this um fantastic enlightening um chat about yourself and Power Boys High with my three takeaways the key points that I actually got out of this personally if I may number one you said rugby brings you into the room the culture takes you into a new room a new destination I think that's an amazing statement that coaches themselves actually offer the keys to that new room to the to the doors to that new room and you help define and show what's really possible out there and I think it's a lovely phrasing of what you're actually here for.
SPEAKER_00Number two, you said one day I'll be asked how many hearts I've won, not how many games I've won. You're out there winning hearts for Jesus and I think that's absolutely incredible that when a player returns to school and talks about everything other than the rugby, you know that you've instilled the right things both you as a coach and as the or the director of rugby influencing that young man or woman. Number three, I I I love when you talked about it's really important to establish with parents what your values are actually being vulnerable not just to your players and the people you're coaching but to the parents that are shareholders also in their son's successes. You said I love your son like he's my own and for me that looks like through the hard times through honest conversations through looking not just at the short time but also that bigger picture. It's all encompassing that you're not just here for your own agenda there's a bigger picture and letting parents see and feel that like the players you coach see and feel it is massively important if you're coaching at Schoolboy or any level of this game.
SPEAKER_02Sean Erasmus head coach of the mighty PAL Boys High thank you for your time your beautiful words today on the Coaching Culture podcast thanks Ben and thank you for the opportunity and um yeah I always say to people and all the coaches out there be strong and courageous. You decide what that looks like and how it's going to be for everybody around you and for your players so yeah thank you so much for for the opportunity and um I look forward to following the podcast and and also learning more. It's been amazing. Thank you