Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
How Ryan Martin led Northland’s Historic Ranfurly Shield Win
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The Ranfurly Shield isn’t just a trophy. It’s a pressure cooker that turns every home match into a final, pulls entire towns into the story, and asks players to carry something heavier than a scoreboard. After Northland’s first Shield win since 1978, head coach Ryan Martin joins me to explain how his group handled the moment and why the celebration and the responsibility can actually fuel performance instead of distracting from it.
We dig into Ryan’s simple coaching framework for big games: confidence equals belief times evidence. Belief comes from the language you use and the “white noise” you remove when the week gets loud. Evidence comes from what you’ve trained long before the spotlight shows up, including the repeated reps that create quick skill retrieval when fatigue and nerves hit. Ryan shares how a single photo, two minutes of silence, and a few carefully chosen words can set a tone that speeches never reach.
From there we get practical: shock and awe without chaos. Ryan breaks down why two or three trained surprises like an unusual lineout setup or a bold tap move can rattle a structured defense, and how he stores ideas in a personal coaching library for the right opponent at the right time. We also talk training design, including the “cliff face” drill for earning momentum, and why pad holders must act like mini coaches if you want standards to rise across the whole squad.
Finally, we go deeper into coaching culture: leading with care, catching people doing something good, clipping heroic moments, and using haka and kaitiaki guardianship to build identity that lasts through media attention and mid-season celebrations. If you coach rugby, lead teams, or just love what sport can do for a community, you’ll take something usable from this conversation.
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The Shield And The Moment
SPEAKER_00This is probably the most important game you're going to play in your in your your lifetime as a Ruby player and let's acknowledge that and enjoy that and then here's how we're going to go about it. We're going to do a couple of weird things.
SPEAKER_01For those that don't know, this Ram Furley Shield thing has it's remarkable the energy this piece of wood carries. It um as soon as you get it, because every home game, it was like we were playing the final and you didn't need to say anything as coaches.
SPEAKER_00I've never seen anything like it. Like um there are school kids doing huckers and singing way after the boys. Our boys got really emotional. Um, like really emotional. And then um we returned the favour uh with a really powerful hucker.
SPEAKER_01For those abroad that don't know the Ranfurney Shielders, largely it sticks with some of the bigger unions and they hold on to it for a long time. And then when a smaller team like Northland won it, it's just remarkable because it stays in smaller communities, small townships, and they get to share the love in this thing that's been going for a bloody long time.
SPEAKER_00The boys understand the responsibility we now have. Um, so I I believe we're in an awesome space around that.
SPEAKER_01Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership on Ben Herring. I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Ryan Martin, head coach of the Northland Tanifar team in the NPC in New Zealand, who have just as of a couple of days ago won the Ranfurley Shield. The first time since 1978, beating Canterbury in Canterbury for the first time in 39 years. The hugest celebrations going on up in the north of New Zealand after this historic occasion is nothing better than bringing the Ranfurley Shield home, one of the most prestigious and coveted trophies in New Zealand rugby history. It is now in the far, far north of New Zealand. And Ryan Martin has been leading this team for a couple of seasons now. In conjunction, he leads both the Northland Tanifur as head coach and the Boston Free Jacks as head coach as well. Not many coaches in the world do too. But now, Ryan, welcome to the podcast. Championship Ranfurley Shield winning coach, welcome.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, awesome to be back on. I think this is my third time, so I think uh it's pretty special to be able to do that.
SPEAKER_01Well, I love that you get your priority straight, mate. That the um the the prize is the the amount of times you pair on the coaching culture podcast, mate, after just winning the Ranfurly Shield. It's awesome. Mate, first and foremost, Lion Red is the the bearer of choice up there, and you're wearing it proudly on your top today. Old school Northern rugby jersey comes out. How good?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, it's it's these old retro jerseys have gone big. They're the old cotton ones with the short sleeves, and um I reckon it's cool that they're bringing back those old jerseys and all our supporters are in them, and um, yeah, and the players each get one as well, so it's uh bringing back a bit of the eighties feel.
SPEAKER_01Right, and talking about the eighties, it is you know, bringing back the Ram Frilly Shield hasn't happened just before the eighties, mate. So it's it's all happening, mate, bringing bringing back the old to the new.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it was um we we flew into Funaday Airport yesterday, and um there's a big po fuddy for us, and um it was just I've I've never seen anything like it. Like um, there are school kids doing huckers and singing white artists to the boys. Our boys got really emotional, um, like really emotional. And then um we returned the favour uh with a really powerful hucker, and yeah, the whole airport was just brimming, and then um the the the feel up here's been just huge for the community. They've got a parade organized for one of the today this week, so it's um yeah, it's incredible. We're gonna try and get the shield out and amongst the community, amount amongst the Mariahs, like to the far, far north. And um, yeah, there's just something special about it. It's it's a like a real community um award as such, like the communities just love it, and that's I think that's the cool thing about it. Like we've we've won it, but we're gonna get it out into the communities for the people to appreciate it. And yeah, it's been pretty special.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it is special. Just for those that don't know about the shield, it's it's been going for bloody ages, and essentially it works is every home game you play, uh, the shield's up for grapes. And so um you went down to Canterbury, Christchurch, and you won it down there, and you're bringing it back to your region. And what is quite special for those abroad that don't know the Ranfurley Shield is largely it sticks with some of the bigger unions and they hold on to it for a long time. The likes of Canterbury's and Yorklands and that sort of thing have big runs of holding it because they're just so strong. And then when a smaller team like Northland, which is uh a way smaller population and Tallentpool and all that stuff won it, it's just remarkable because it stays in smaller communities, small townships, and they get to share the love in this thing that's been going for a bloody long time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And what's also really cool about our team this year is we've got a I've got a board directive to um have our squad made up of 80% born and bred in Orlands. So um people, but there's just like everyone's got some type of a relation um up here, and it's just uh yeah, that that's been really special as well. Like this is a as close to a homebred team you can have to win it as well, which is I think helped as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's that's that's remarkable. And it it's always the whole country lights up too, doesn't it? Because they love seeing the smaller teams do well. And it's not just mate, as we stand at the moment, Northern is first on the whole table, which is in itself a just a remarkable feat. So it's been a a blockbusting season. Now, if we look, mate, to
Why The Ranfurly Shield Matters
SPEAKER_01the to the game that's just been on the weekend, you know, just looking at the stats from the betting agencies, 90% of the bets were on Canterbury. And um how did you do that, mate? Like, if we're gonna talk about now, like for for the coaches that are on the show, we're talking about building up to a big game, a hugest game, probably the biggest, bigger than a final in a lot of ways. How did you use that fact that no one thought you could win um to build sort of belief in the team that you could do it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, there's there's a cool equation. I I don't know where I got it from was when I was coaching at Tiger Woods High School first 15. It's and it's confidence is belief times evidence. And um the the evidence comes from what you do in your pre-season. So I'm massive around, I think I've mentioned before on your podcast, like using like deep retrieval of your skills, so you got quick retrieval in games. So we had a very short preseason, like two weeks. So we just hammered down on the things that like under pressure, if you could pull the trigger, uh, are gonna work. And then the the belief is the language you use. So what was really interesting for us is we're on a six-day turnaround. So very similar to like a club football team, you only have two sessions in the week. Like your first session is way off pace because the boys are, you know, banged up from the previous game, and then you get one more session in the week where you put it at speed. So it wasn't as though we're on a seven-day turnaround where you had the luxury of that extra day. Um, so it became like a lot of our language had to be around belief. And um, I actually started the week with a picture of Okara Park, which is now Seminov Stadium, uh, where we play up here in Fungaday. And it was in 1978 when they the first time they brought the shield back here after the when they won it. And the park had 38,000 people, it was overflowing. So I put that up on the projector on the wall, and we just stared at that for two minutes. There's not not a word said. That's how the meeting started. Um, because it's it's very abnormal to start a meeting that way, isn't it? Like normally there's the white noise or fluff. I just put the picture up and I purposely didn't say a word, and then I think they understood like we've got an opportunity, something that's uh pretty special for this region. Um and that that set the tone. Like it I I think it set the tone because there wasn't a lot of white noise around and they knew we're gonna do to go and do uh you know something pretty special. Um and then yeah, we just in the week um we kind of wanted to have a little bit of shock and awe about us. I I think it's important in big games as such when you know there's a lot on the line, like you've got to have two or three things that are just the opposition don't have no clue that are coming. And we had this really cool tap move and the boys pulled it. It was the 42nd just after half time. We're 21-12. And you know, Canterbury are a good team, it's essentially their super team. And um, yeah, we got a penalty close to the posts, and most teams would, you know, go to the go to the line for a mole or maybe a scrum, but not our boys. They pulled the trigger on this tap move, it was hilarious, and they scored. And I think that after that, like it the the whole momentum just was with us, and yeah, it was pretty, pretty cool.
SPEAKER_01I remember because I did chat to you before that week leading up to it, and you did say you had a couple of special plays, and I remember you saying, if these come off, we'll go really well, but I'm not sure if they'll come off or not.
SPEAKER_00The other hilarious we one we did was in the first half, we had a three-man mall, so a three-man line out. Um, and we purposely set that up just because it was so we're so weird to defend. I don't think anyone trains to defend three-man malls, do they? So uh we did this weird mole, we've got it, we're I'm playing off a penalty advantage, and then Sam Knox scored um down the blind side. So once again, like that just gives you that that's that belief and evidence thing that then fill into your confidence. And um, yeah, I I I just enjoyed the way we went about that.
SPEAKER_01I I love how you said, man, like I I love that little phrase, confidence is belief times evidence. That's cool. And I and I loved also what you said about in this week you did a couple of things. You removed a bit of white noise, which and what is white noise for you, Rhino? What does that look like?
SPEAKER_00I I just think you can over-talk and over like pump up the occasion. Like, just keep it real simple. Like, hey, and and make it real obvious, like, yes, this is probably the most important game you're gonna play in your in your lifetime as a Rabbi player, and let's acknowledge that and enjoy that. And then here's how we're gonna go about it. We're gonna do a couple of weird things. Um, this is what it means for the wider community. And uh then you just as I said, just build the belief with the the language you use in the in the week and the evidences you're training, like if you're feeling as though you can pull trigger on those things because you've got that kind of quick retrieval mentality, then I love that.
SPEAKER_01And I love also that you talked about the um shock and awe. That is a Ryan Hart special shock and awe, do something different. Um and and just it it's a kind of a nice one for coaches to have too. Like it doesn't have to be super complex or anything, does it? Just something a little bit different. And does that just give the boys or the team a little bit of like that like quiet excitement, like, oh, we're doing this? Because I know when you put a moves in rugby teams, uh everyone gets a bit giddy with them sometimes. Yeah, this comes off. And is that the kind of shock naught you you were kind of trying to achieve with the three-man mall and that intricate tap move?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like you you gotta you gotta go down with the mindset to like have a go and pull the trigger. And um, if you put two or three things max in that have that mentality and yeah, they're excited about it. It was quite funny because throughout the week that we had to keep going over the little tap move, just like the the people that had the specific roles, you know, they would in their own time they'd go and do it in the gym, and because it was a weird little pass, and that was cool to see as well. And um, as I said, we're only on a two-day, like six days turnaround, so you only had two sessions. Um so you just kind of you've got to build that in your pre-season that hey, we can do things, you know, mm uh even the day before the the game, like we're that confident. Um that's that's going back to that belief times evidence thing, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01I think that's really important for coaches listening too, right? Like some sometimes you get put make it too complex, right? Like, and then all of a sudden you're you're you're scrambled and you're not sure because you're trying to work out this move
Confidence Is Belief Times Evidence
SPEAKER_01rather than going hard. But you talked about that about this has been this is not just done the week of the game. You've this has been ingrained since pre-season. The way you work, I know you do it very well, you build and build, and so boys have that sort of confidence to yeah, we can roll, we can put a new move in this week, no problem. Because we've yeah, all the way.
SPEAKER_00That's the language that you use, like what we call it Tuddy Magic. Um, so like that they know that we do weird and wonderful, and that's from day dot. Like that's that's what how I believe um, you know, the game should be played, and um you know the the team is the extension of the coach's personality at times, isn't it? So if if that's just the norm, then it's it's just like a normal week. Oh, yeah, here's uh two or three weird things.
SPEAKER_01I love that, mate. A team is the extension of the coach's personality, and that's you, mate. The tani magic, standing for tanifar magic, which is in New Zealand culture, is uh an ancient, almost dragon-like creature that has a little bit of magical properties. I'm not too sure what he actually does. I think he controls the water or something, doesn't he? A tanifa?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so a tanifa's actually where we researched it last year, um, and it's actually what they call a kaitiaki, so a gu a guardian, and it can take any form. So the the visual form has been the kind of water monster, but it can be uh anything. So there's sever uh sorry, six subunions that make up Northland, and each one has its own kind of tanifa. So one of our areas has like a a killer whale is the tanifar for that area, right? So it's yeah, it it takes a form of what that region is, like what the Kitiaki, the guardian of that region is.
SPEAKER_01Wow, that's that's uh I'm not sure many people even in New Zealand would know that that's it's uh jingling.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, it's really cool. Like the boys presented it on it um last year. So I got them to talk around the tanifar of their subunion and what it is and and what it means for that little subunion that makes up Northland and that was pretty cool activity we did.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And when you talk about tiny magic, knowing you, Rhino, you you would you would be talking about Tani Magic every training, right? Like let's see some Tani Magic or something like that. You'd you'd have drills designed to encourage the magic.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and it's a funny thing because it's a it I think coaches can sometimes get caught in saying, like, play what's in front or let's put air on the ball. But what we try and do is be really specific weekly. So each week there's a different type of tunny magic depending on what the defense is doing that we're playing. So that you know, it could be that you're gonna attack close to the breakdown, like have uh if your breakdown is really efficient, like that second arriving player is gonna maybe go quickly. That's the magic for the forwards, or the magic for the backs could be like playing in behind the pods, like going edge to edge. So you just look at like what is the magic for this week that we think's gonna work. And so it's it's actually a specific thing. It's not just aerie fairy, oh play what's in front. Well, I don't know what's we don't sometimes you don't know what's gonna be in front. So you've got to have um specific language, like what the magic actually is for that week. Love it.
SPEAKER_01What was the magic for this week? For the for the Canterbury um demolition, by the by the way, you put 30 points on them. What was it more than the magic?
SPEAKER_00Oh, we we attacked quite close to the breakdown, to be honest, because I wanted to get some horizontal and vertical movement in the defense, so get them to compress. So we uh we went quite close to the breakdown at times, which is quite weird. Um, but uh it seemed to work, just compressed them a little bit and earned us like maybe one or two free spots in the width, and yeah, it was pretty cool.
SPEAKER_01That's awesome. It's little short runners and things like that just going narrower than than teams normally would.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Um, but yeah, I think it's a I think that's something I've learned. Like you've got to be really specific, like what is like you know, playing with width or what like what how do you actually do it properly? Love it.
SPEAKER_01Well, how how did the week look, mate? You talked about you putting the single. If you would run through the week, like what did you train, what did you leave out, and you know, shit it was a short week for you. Um and where did you spend sort of your coaching time and and building up to such a game?
SPEAKER_00Uh uh a lot of our time was spent as a like accessing really simple language on the field, so we call it name action. Um so we wanted to be really deliberate in our setups um and consistent. So almost, you know, when I used to watch the Crusaders back in the day, they were like that. Like they're just so consistent and deliberate, and they're just waiting for like one shoulder mistake on defense. So it was more a language thing around being consistent and deliberate in our setups. Um, and if if we were if we were that way, then we're you know, we're waiting for the those kind of little small defensive errors, could be like a little micro fracture that we earn through a good running line in a pod or using like late footwork at the line. Um so we wanted to be actually quite uh quite consistent and uh and earn the ability to you know find the holes in the defense. So we did a a lot of work on pads, I call it cliff face, so it's just 15 on 15 and um 15 players are on pads, and we just stay at the halfway point, and you're just getting lots and lots of reps of your face structure and getting heaps of really good pitches. Hey, look at that, that shoulders turned in. Did we take it? Because it's you're only operating either side of the halfway as a coach. That's something Joe Schmidt talks about. Like you can be coaching on the run, like the coach's eye. There's that famous story he was on a podcast, and they're asking Joe around what technology he uses, and he said, Oh, the coach's eye, and the person asked him, you know, what app is that? He goes, No, it's my eye. I found it quite funny. But I I like it because as a coach, you can be like real close to your attack and like you're asking questions on the run and you're not stopping the training. So, like, did you see that shoulder? No, and then you're like, then the ball's gone to the next place, you know, so that's quite cool.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, just probably a little bit of clarification for coaches listening is essentially the halfway line is like a cliff face which dropped off, so the players can't run over the line. So um when they hit the line, they have to go down and form a ruck. And so it just keeps going to that line. And the beauty of it for you as a coach is it's all in front of you over and over again. Repeat, repeat, repeat, and you don't um you don't have those niggly team runs where it goes someone gets touched and they run 50 metres and yeah, and then it'll then it's massive front football and it's all incorrect and all that.
SPEAKER_00Well, the the the funny thing about that is if like if you do that it that way, sometimes you're making like 10 meter bends. So like you're you're learning to play on top, which is great. But I think you if you look at the game truly, like 80% of the time you're not really playing on top of a team, like you do have to earn it way more than maybe like we used to train it and you know. So I I think that's what I enjoy about it because you're almost learning to play like when you're not on top and you're getting negative game line carries. And um, like if that if you train heaps that way, then when you do earn those bends, it's uh it does feel way easier.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I think too, it goes back to that, it's just bringing that confidence as belief, is that high repetition, isn't it? You're getting lots and lots and lots of know where you're supposed to be, know where the lines are, know if you're running it well, and it's repeated over and over.
SPEAKER_00Um Yeah, and w we put a massive value on the on the pad holders, like they're the we just call them the mini coaches, the micro coaches. So that their behaviors on the pads are as important as the team that's attacking the pads. Um so if they're giving us really good pitches, like um, you know, what are your breakdown behaviours like? Are you getting your jams and slams? Like so they're coaching them with that. And that we're we're we're we're very like definitive on like what the D pitches
Shock And Awe On Game Day
SPEAKER_00are going to be for the week. So we really want our pads to give us those those correct pitches in terms of what type of defense is coming for the week.
SPEAKER_01Oh, that's really cool. So the guys on the pads are actually um being schooled up, and this is how Canterbury will defend, this is what we want them to do, and if they do that, then we're on here. So they know and they're actually running the opposition defensive cues.
SPEAKER_00That is huge. Um, like I know you know when I was working at Tuareda and and Steve was our boss, he was massive around like what's what's the D doing, like what is the D telling you? And it that kind of really changed my thinking as well. Um so I'm I'm pretty big on that now.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I I think that's really cool. And I think the other cool thing that you're talking about here is that pad holders are mini coaches, and I think this is something which is really missed. Often when you're holding a pad, you're just you're taking the piss or just la-di da. But if you can encourage your teams that that role is massive, so you're providing a good body height, you're talking, you're coaching the guy that's running into you. No, mate, too high or not enough leg drive, or um give me some footwork first. Um if you can get your pad holders doing that, you are gonna be a gazillion times better team, are you?
SPEAKER_00I just it's so underrated and it's it's cool. Like, then there's just so much chatter, like that's the opposite of white noise, it's very specific, very deliberate. Like um, can your can your session flow, but is there lots of coaching moments inside it so you're not constantly stopping? So if you can get down to two or three keywords and the pad holders know the keywords that they've got in their role, um I just think it's like pretty cool when you're just seeing that as you said, like they're they're talking to the attack, like get your foot work, no too high, or no, you didn't jam me here.
SPEAKER_01I always um I always like that story about John Warden, um, the basketball coach um who who used to do his first thing when people come to the team, he would show you how to tie your shoelaces. Yeah. That's kind of a famous story. But I think in ro in rugby teams, the the version of that, which probably is a good one to start, is this is how we hold the pad. When you're holding the pad on D, this is how we hold it. You put your arm through here, you hold it to your chest, you keep it tight, you're not loose. And being that definitive on that sets a really nice tone for everyone that's holding pads from from that point forth, which I think is massively important.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and it just just shows you care. Like that, we always talk about the care factor. Like if if if you're um putting value on that role, then it means you care about the team. And we talk a lot about that. Um, just the way you deliver the ball when you've carried and you're on the ground, like how much do you care? Because the way you do that can help the next carrier like significantly with some of the behaviours we we try and use. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's a pretty powerful psychology to use the word care, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Especially in this game, right? Because yeah, like it's the maybe it's the people that play it, because they play it because they care about the people and around them and the game. And then when you say, mate, do you care enough to present the way we that's better than saying that's rubbish. Yes, it it sings a bit deeper, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, it's a funny one because like one of my big things is if you want to change behaviour, capture someone doing something good. Um, and you know, maybe I I probably a little bit opposite to a lot of other coaches, but I just I just love seeing good things and you know, like I think the care thing can mean you can still have that little bit of um you know bark in you as a coach. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01If you've got the care, you can actually yeah, you can have a bit more angry voice, angry dad voice because there's care. Yeah. If you want to change behavior, catch someone doing something good.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's massive for me. Like a lot of my um like whenever I'm presenting, I just always try and get the behaviors that we want and then show them in front of the team. Cause I think, you know, it's easy to to call out the negative stuff and be the grumpy coach and oh gee, he's massive on standards. But I just think the opposite way is like I love when we do This, like using that, that's a powerful word as well, isn't it? Love and care and look at this. This guy cares so much the way he's delivering the ball for you.
SPEAKER_01I think that's really I think that's a the the negative is easy default pattern for coaches to go to. If you go to any probably any team review coaches meeting, you will find coaches putting up videos going, look how shit this is. Look at that. That's the average. Yeah. But you would very rarely hear someone say, Hey, look, this is the exemplar. This is outstanding how Johnny's done this. And look how much he cares enough to for the next bloke that gets the ball. Or I know which one I'd respond to better.
SPEAKER_00Oh, totally. Like I know myself, um, when I get compliments, you kind of feel a bit, but then you like think about it. Like you know, you might go to bed that night and goes, geez, that was cool when that person said that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And then probably the opposite is that when you get a negative slight negative one, you go a bit defensive, right? You get a bit like, oh, f you, what? Yeah. And then you have to sort of get rid of that to open up to actually he might have had a point rather than buying in from the outset. Yeah. Yeah, I love that, mate. And when you're talking about care, mate, like how much how much care do you put on as a ratio about the opposition on Canterbury, for example? How much um care did you put into them versus just being North Hundred?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's a good question, especially on short turnarounds. I think it's very similar to like what club coaches would experience. Um you gotta know like what is the what is the DNA of the team you're playing? Like three, just have, you know, Steve always talks about Steve Hansel talks about the three critical things. Like what are the what are their big rocks? Um, what are they like? When do they look their most comfortable? And then so you kinda I always base it around that. Like, is there is there something I can do that maybe rattles that part of their game? So it could be something they do defensively on attack, they look their best when they're doing da-da-da. And like, is there a way we can spook them out of that with something? And I just think you gotta keep it like you gotta understand the like it takes two to tango, two to dance. So you do have to respect that for your game to work, you have to um unpick the opposition a little bit. It's because you sometimes you can go so far the other way, we're just gonna worry about us, and you hear that. And um, but there is an opposition that you come into play. And you know, they've got their best intentions as well. So you gotta you gotta, yeah, just find I I can just find three things like what is their big DNA and like what what are they about? And is there a way that is there a way that we've prepared that you can quickly access something that might throw them that we do, which is our superpower? And I think that's the way we looked at it for this game. Um we were we wanted to unsettle them a little bit, hence you know, running a three-man lineup. But what's hilarious that we've been we'd been priming that three man in preseason knowing we would use it at some stage.
SPEAKER_01Oh, you did? You had it up your sleeve.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it had been prepped for the whole time, ready to go. So you did we just touch on it like weekly, knowing there's gonna be a time when we're gonna use this, especially against a really well you know structured defense. Um, and as I said, like we we ended up mauling thinking mauling off it would kind of stun Canterbury a little bit, and then um went up scoring when we went down the blind side off it.
SPEAKER_01So so one
Training For Quick Skill Retrieval
SPEAKER_01of your big rocks that you identified with Canterbury was that they're a pretty good, a very good structured defense team.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, they're they're aggressive and double shoulders and they're they're they're probably one of the best defenses I've looked at for a while.
SPEAKER_01So needed to do and so you need to shock them and you thought like mauling, and then you thought, well, why don't we just rattle it up a little bit more and let's check in something they haven't seen, so they don't they can't get into their structured system because they haven't seen this before and they probably haven't done uh defended this reman more.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that was exactly right. And the same with the tap move, like people you you don't know what you're defending when you do a weird tap move, so like it takes away good structured D's again.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. But I think it's pretty cool how you keep you've kept that up your sleeve. Have you got a like have you got have you done that a few times with you like a couple of other moves just sitting in there waiting for the right team that essentially when you see them and you go, yep, this is the time we use that one.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, that's it's something I'll put a lot of time into to understand like this type of defense or this type of team, these types of things tend to work. And you just kind of like that's the cool thing about coaching. What I enjoy is like if you get if they do work, then you just clip it or you know, make a screenshot screen recording of it and put it on your hard drive, and then you've you know, you might just say this works against this type of D and you have a wee folder and you click into that one. Oh yeah, these, oh yep, this is what I use there against that d might try.
SPEAKER_01Yep. And and just a funny backstory about yourself, Ryan, for those that don't know you as well as I know you, you've got a stack of hard drives that you keep in a rubber band, which is just growing and growing, and you have videos and screens of these things that fill up 17 terabytes. Um, it's like a lifetime. If anyone ever got your things mate, they would never be able to watch all of it. It's so much stuff in there, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I don't I don't I just love it. Like that's one of my favourite parts when it's had that downtime of just going through them and even going all the way back to when I had a Tailboys High School, first 15, like looking at some of the stuff I was doing there. It was quite hilarious.
SPEAKER_01Well, mate, I used to love it how you used to I I'm pretty much on demand. You could go, actually, I've got this move, and then within 10 seconds you could scroll back into the deep recesses of uh hard drive number 48 and find the exact player you're after. It's a folder through folder, like going into the matrix of these things, it's incredible. It's like beautiful it's like Russell Crowe in um Beautiful Mind. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, it's it's helped me to be honest, like having your own catalogue. I do the same with skill and drill, like just record everything where where possible and put it in its, you know, and then it's just I don't know, then you've got your own coach's library and just keep adding to it and keeps you. I don't it's I find it really exciting going and seeing all those things.
SPEAKER_01Well, and with excitement, was there an exciting part of the week where you just went, We're we're on here? Like, was there a moment in during the week where you went, I think I got these guys. Was there anything like that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, it was hilarious because we had a lot of media come up, like um some of the local shows in New Zealand. There's one called Crowd Goes Wild game and Josh Cromfeld, who was one of my favourite players when I was growing up, come up and with the national news. And I just looked at the way the boys reacted and they were really relaxed. And sometimes I think you can oh like people think the media could be annoying or disruptive. But I was like, nah, let's embrace it and make it cool. Like invite anyone that wants to come up, uh media-wise. And we just embraced and it it built this thing like, hey, this is a cool big occasion, and we're we're selling what we're about. Like that's having all the media in it in and around training. And um I think that just built a like, hey, this is a this is pretty cool, eh? Like what we're what whatever happens, we've we've uh helped our union just by having so so much exposure already.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, there's something cool to be said about embracing the media at this level of the game, but having a bit of fun with it too, eh? Like just not not being scared of it. Like a lot, I know a lot of coaches at the professional level think the media is this devil and they've got to keep them at arm's length and they've got to restrict what players can or can't say. But don't you think that's just like it's creating something out of nothing, isn't it? Where you could create something super amazing uh with this sort of interest level.
SPEAKER_00Totally. And it's just exposing like it was cool for us. They came to our our HQ, our training field, and they got to see a bit of our personality. And um I just sort of that that kind of built the like the excitement of the week. Um so that that naturally happened by having so much interest in in what was going on. And then we were pretty confident with um like our game where we can kind of flip in between different game profiles depending on what the opposition are doing. And um, you know, once again that goes back to your pre-season, like how you prep the crew that so when you do have shorter turnarounds you can access stuff that you've um you know put in that kind of deep rehearsal mode. And yeah, we were we had a lot of confidence around that and um just made it like a celebration of the week and yeah, hence we went down there and did a pretty good job.
SPEAKER_01Wonderful job. Yeah, I had text messages coming in from all over. My um my wife's family's from the far north, so they they were pumped. In fact, when me and you won the with Otago, we won the Ranfilly Shield, my father-in-law was the first to sprint across the field, which you're not allowed to do. He just ran onto the field with bears. Um I remember that. Uh Toot Dole, I'll give him a shout-out. Um, he did a he was the first. In fact, he was in some of the photos in the background when we the boys were all holding up the shields, he's in the background there with a bear, which was absolutely awesome. Yeah, I remember that. That was great. It's a passionate place, isn't it, North? Yeah, for support of rugby. It's absolutely wonderful. Yeah, absolutely wonderful. And mate, how did you go to the last little bit? So the last couple of days, there's like um he obviously used the history of uh 1978, that photo on um Akara Park. And what what anything else? Do you use anything else uh closer to the time? What what in the change room that last little bit before they run out? What what what do you deliver there? What's your choice as a coach?
SPEAKER_00I I like to have a lot of fun with um your pregame. Um I try and change it up. And it was something that when I was coaching with you at a Tiger, you know, from 2018 onwards, we used to have a lot of fun with the pregame. And, you know, we'd bounce between you, Tom Donnelly, and myself and um do, you know, some weird and wonderful things. Um, but in respect of preparing for a match. Um so I actually did uh when the boys came into the team room, I I individually wrote them a letter on an A4 piece of paper um and just told them the you know what I thought of them and um their character and what it meant for them for the day and some of their superpowers that I believe they were going to bring out in the game. So they came into the room, they got handed their letter, they sat down in silence for three or four minutes. We played our our hucker that we'd um done the previous week for Rivers Ray Hunter's 50th. I I auto-recorded it and just had that in the background. And then um they c they folded up their letter and we jumped on the bus. Once again, no white noise, just that was it. Wow, then that's a hand not typed, handwritten. I typed it. Yeah, I'm a modern man now. Um I typed them up. Um but yeah, it was just I just I I just like the idea of that individual, you know, being individuals as well, and and get and then hearing my voice on the on the paper for them.
SPEAKER_01And yeah, it was pretty cool. I can imagine that's pretty special, mate, when you've said personal stuff to individuals, all individualised letters. Uh it just adds that little connection piece, the one more thing that you're playing for is a coach that cares, on top of you know, all this interest from the public and the media and stuff, and then your coach rides you a personal letter just before you're about to go and do something uh essentially a a warlike battle. That's pretty it's a pretty touching piece, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I enjoyed it just w looking around the room and young Nathan Salmon, he's uh wing young fella, 21 years of age, and he was giggling away to himself. And I actually so it was quite cool. Like there's different reactions, there's some steely eyes reading their letter, and um, yeah, I quite enjoyed just seeing their reactions.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I love that, mate. And then you also mentioned the haka, and off air, you were just talking about how important the haka is. Um just for probably a bit of context. Um uh Northland or the region out the far north in New Zealand is um very um uh strong in that side of things. Um do you want to just elaborate on on what you've done with the haka and how you've brought it into the team to make it uh even more powerful than it is in the rest of New Zealand?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's um the first time I ever saw the our Northern Tanifa do their haka three years ago, I was like, wow, that's I've never seen anything like it. It was just so powerful and it meant it was something that what they were doing was bigger than um you know what the human aspect. I could
Care Language And Positive Coaching
SPEAKER_00just see that. And so what we we we wanted to really tap into that, um, and two of our boys, um, Terrell Pater and Hidamai Murray, they run Todo classes for our team every Wednesday, and it has huge, huge attendance, and they're doing a great job. And so we're trying to tap into that, um, what it means to for this region. Um, you know, I'm a visitor here, I've been here for three years, and they've they've taken me in with open arms. And um, so what we do is we actually tap into our hucker weekly and pull out a a sentence or some keywords from the hucker, and that becomes our focus point for the week. Um, that sentence within the hucker, and the boys use that as their sign-off as well. So after every meeting or after every um training session, um we we have our own very unique sign-off, which is which is the hucker, and it's it's uh delivered in different ways. Depending we choose a different caller each week from the team as well, so that that that's a big responsibility, the person that leads it, the the first whatever that sentence is, and then the boys repeat it. Um it's actually quite funny because we had a film crew up last week and sometimes they they they really get quite energetic around it and the the caller was calling the sentence over and over and they were repeating it and then they're kind of you know getting pretty excited. So I think the film crew are wondering what was going on.
SPEAKER_01Well, mate, it's actually pretty cool that you've done this sort of like help help be part because essentially the head coach helps drive you you've talked about the head coach is the extension of the team is the extension of the head coach's personality, and if you embrace it as a visitor, you acknowledge that this is a really part important part of this place, this landscape, this environment, the the people of here, and make it part of you. That's that's you embracing the culture. That's your just that little bit of awareness as a coach, as a leader, to go, this is important to the people here. Let's make it important to us as a team and magnify it and escalate it and make it special to us, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, it's this is a really really unique region. Like there's six subunions that make up Northland as a whole. So uh it was really important for us to to have a tip of the hat to the to the subunions. And last year we did a cool project, as I mentioned before, but we also um we got some Tanifar um visuals made for each of the the subunions. Um we have our awesome culture advisor up here, Mike Tulaki, and he him and a special artist made them. And um, yeah, that was pretty special as well. Um the that that uh tied us in together as a group, and anyone new who comes into our team from outside the region is allocated into a subunion that suits their personality, so it's not a forced thing. We don't like you know get silly with voting or whatever that it's around who that person is and their personality and what subunion would fit them best.
SPEAKER_01Mate, that's really cool.
SPEAKER_00It's really cool.
SPEAKER_01It's a really cool, it's a really cool part of the world, isn't it? It's it's lovely to see how much uh you've embraced it completely, mate. Now I I guess I guess now obviously you'll have celebrations, and now these celebrations will probably go all the way till you play Tasman in in next weekend. So how how do you address that now, mate? As a coach, you've this is a weird scenario where normally celebrations happen at the end of the season when you win a final, but this is midway through a season and you win. You could argue this is bigger than winning the final, the Ranfield Shield, for the region, what it does. How do you mate? How are you planning on addressing this and what what's what's your your headspace now around looking after the shield and not celebrating celebrating but not celebrating too hard?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's it's kind of falling in our lap a little bit. We're on a nine-day turnaround, so we go from Thursday match um to a Sunday match. So we've given the players the weekend off. Um we had some good celebrations yesterday at our HQ, our club rooms, and invited our friends, family, and sponsors in. Um, and I think you know the boys will get Saturday Sunday off. And then Rivers Ray Hana, Sam Nock, and Al Craig are our our leaders, uh Kaitiakis of the group, and they've said we're we're uh you know, we're all in on Monday, we're going hard. Like this is a really important week for us. So that's driven by them. That's their own standards that we keep the training week as it is, um, enjoy the weekend. Uh, but you know, we're gonna roll up the sleeves from Monday and kind of got the hairs on the back of my neck up when you know your your kayakis, your guardians of your team are talking in that way. So I feel as though um the boys understand the responsibility we now have. Um so I I believe we're in an awesome space around that.
SPEAKER_01It's actually quite cool because you talked earlier about um uh really focus on being consistent and deliberate. And when your leaders are being consistently good like that and very deliberate in their actions, it's it's it's serving you in a real good way. And I and I will say this for those probably North that is something Northland hasn't been for a long time. Like historically, it you wouldn't I wouldn't say that they're being a particularly consistent team for probably pretty up and down. But um, when you're having leaders speak like that, it's it's certainly going in an amazing direction, right?
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, that like if that's if that's the drive of your team, then you're in a very good spot regardless, aren't you? So yeah, I was pretty pumped when the there's that was their language being used.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00And geez, that's nice timing, isn't it, to have uh a few extra days to just to be able to accommodate that uh that yeah, yeah, it's been and like that as I said before, they've the community's gonna have a parade and that'll be on one of the days off that we've got. So it's all it's all just like all working together with the community rugby aspect and the the community as a whole. So everyone's kind of well aware of we still uh you know, as you'd mentioned, it's just mid season, so we don't want to get too carried away with a good job to do now. So um I've enjoyed just all the everyone coming together and planning accordingly. It's it's been pretty, pretty cool to see.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. As soon as you get it, well, I know for our experience when we had it last, we held on to all season because every home game, it was like we were playing the final. And you didn't need to say anything as coaches because the the team was so fired up, and we bet teams we shouldn't never have bet, um, simply because of our passion and hunger and all that stuff.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, it was interesting, wasn't it? That uh anyone that comes for it, you know it's like got a test match feel to it. There's a fever about that game, and yeah, it's I I enjoy that aspect of it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, man. And a lot of people become uh Northland, uh they their Northern roots are shown pretty quick. Hey, sumo Stevenson comes out with a full full Northland kit and TV. How good? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that was real cool. Like it's I think because um w when you go to school up here, there's there's actually to you have to go to university elsewhere.
Scouting Big Rocks And Media Energy
SPEAKER_00Um, so you find that the the roots of the Northam people spread all throughout New Zealand and um and then uh what one thing that's been really special for us, which we worked hard on, is bringing Northam people back to our team. So, you know, you look at Marcel Renata who who went away, but his roots are here, his family's here, and he's come back uh at the back end of his career and just adding so much value to us. It's been really special that gosh Josh Goodhue's just come back from the top league. You know, he's a Northam man through and through, and he's adding so much value to environment. Um, you know, Sam Nock and Rivers Ray Hana got scholarships to high schools down in Auckland, and it would have been easy for them to stay down there in that system, but that you know they came back here to play play their provincial rugby, which is there's just so many of those types of stories throughout our team.
SPEAKER_01Is that part of your recruitment looking at those guys over other guys? Or or is it a bit of a natural totally, yeah?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, totally. Like we want to be as much born and bred as possible, and there's just so many Northern players spread throughout the the NPC teams in New Zealand. So we're well aware of where they all are, and um, you know, that that's our first portical when we're looking at our depth charts and and building our squad uh for future years.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, mate, I love it. Mate, it's it's it's such a cool, such a cool thing to have and mate, so so topical that you've you've done it now in such fun did you expect the score to be what it was 36 to 12 against on the powerhouse teams?
SPEAKER_00No, no, I didn't. Um it's you know what those games are like. Um if I I think because we had that mindset of like a shock and awe and do some weird things, maybe threw them away from their game a wee bit. Um but it like the second half was incredible. I think we were 65% territory and possession. We'd strangled, strangled Canterbury and just kept taking, taking the obvious, which is um I think why, you know, the the score did go that way.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I love it, mate. I love it. Now, if you were talking, mate, like if if someone else is in your position, because this is a coach education piece of this this podcast. A lot of coaches listen to this and pick up ideas and pull them to their own teams. What would you say would be some some advice you'd give um other coaches are going into their, well, let's say important games, whatever they may be. What is something that you would say what's what's mistake? Let's start with mistakes that they could make, you reckon, and then we'll go into things that you should do. You've actually you've talked about the things you should do. What what what's mistakes that coaches make, you reckon, going into these sort of games?
SPEAKER_00Oh, I think sometimes you can get conservative and yourself as a coach, like maybe get overawed by the the significance of the game. I know when I was coaching a Tiger Boys High School first 15, like some of our big traditional interschools were like, wow, so stressful. Like our whole school would shut down and come to the game and um you know you'd have three, four thousand people on the side you you'll know that at Newington. Like the proximity of the spectator, the game is huge. And um I always just I always just had the mindset, as I said, going back to that little formula, like confidence is belief times evidence. So what is the belief that we can quickly instill? Like, what's the what are the what are the words that we can use that are us? And then what is the evidence that we've got maybe from previous games? So you might bring up a real cool moment where courageous here. Like, remember that scrum attack from uh you know, really deep? Like that's how we're gonna that's the mindset I want for when we're in this area of the field. So I think you've just got to try and collate evidence and then unleash it um in that week. Um and once again your language becomes really important. Like that's that's where the belief comes from. And um I I think you gotta you gotta have, as I mentioned before, like two or three things that are a little bit weird and and just celebrate them and get the boys to pull the trigger when that when they're in the correct place on the field.
SPEAKER_01I absolutely love it, Rhino. And I love mate, and it's it's just so great. At the time of recording, first place on the ladder, Ranfilly Sheer would hold us. Imagine imagine what the region would do if if that stays all all season. And I don't wanna, you know. How how do you deal with sort of that coverage? So you don't get too excited, or do you just embrace that excitement? Is that part of the tunny magic?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think you're gonna have a good mix of two of the both. Like it's I I'm not gonna go in there on Monday and pretend I'm grumpy coach um and call out all these things that we did wrong in the game. I'm actually gonna clip all the heroic moments. And that that's that's the way I always believe I I want to coach. Like, if you want to change behaviour, capture someone doing something good. So I'm gonna pull out all the heroic moments from that match and say, hey, this is what we're about. Um and I think that'll that's just being true to what I the way I I do things, and um we we we know what works for us and we know how what weeks, how to build the weeks correctly. So we've got a lot of evidence in that when you're successful, you can kind of start banking some evidence from your weeks, and um it that gives you confidence around you know um what your weeks should be and how it should look and how it should feel. So yeah, not a lot will change.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, mate. I I know I know how you roll, but just listening to your hair, mate. You talked to me earlier about language and just l some of your language mate, collate and unleash shock and or clip the heroic moments. Like these are all these are all they they just get you going, just just saying those sort of words, isn't it? Like it's you know you're not saying, hey mate, get your left foot um 45 degrees and your left elbow's got to be raised at this height. It's um the the way you talk as a coach is is massive, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think it's it's um something I've I've I've always believed in. And I think I mentioned it on your podcast before, like being a teacher for 17 years, you get to practice a lot of that stuff and you get comfortable with you know who you who you need to be in front of the group and what they need for that week and just be real clear around that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, what you need what you need to be in front of a group. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And be that I always like your phrasing, the the mad scientist. Is it I think on the last one we talked about that where you lot you remembered the mad scientist, well not the mad scientist, the scientist that blew up the um Otaga Boys science room, and everyone remembers that story. And every time you walked into the room, no one was quite sure if if this teacher was going to blow up the room again. So you were you were excited,
Pregame Letters And Haka Focus
SPEAKER_01you were paying attention, you were like, what's gonna happen here? It was awesome. That's right.
SPEAKER_00And the the cool thing about that is the power of it is you will go into that classroom session and you wait, like it could be a real boring session, but you're you're anticipating, oh maybe it's next time. But so you're like really engaged in a boring session. Like you're waiting for something, you know what I mean? So it's like the anticipation of that as well.
SPEAKER_01Well, mate, that's this is the thing, this is part of your well, mate, you're you're an amazing coach, but this sort of stuff is the little the thing that sets you out a little bit differently, like the letters you wrote, like that kind of thing, like showing the heroic moments from the match first up, just creates that boom, people come in and wow, okay, this is different, this is interesting. This is not just going through the motions of the standard stuff. This is this is cool. Ryan Martin, what a pleasure. Hey, before we go, one question, which I'm just gonna tweak the wording of this just based on the Ranfurley Shield, is what's one thing you believe about the Ranfurly Shield, this amazing historic trophy in New Zealand rugby that you believe in that you think a lot of other coaches might not believe in or disagree with your sentiment?
SPEAKER_00Oh, I think I I think people might have been freaking out the way we did our week last week, like having so much media and I think people might have thought it was a distraction to performance, but I always look at that stuff the other way, like we've had a lot of visitors into our environment over the last few weeks, and I think some people might think that's a distraction, but we welcome anyone that wants to come in. Um and because our environment's not fake, so what they come in and what they see, it's not you know a poster on the wall. This is who we are. And um I think just embracing um the weird and the wonderful and and overselling, and you know, it would have been easy to to baden up the hatches and close the doors and you know, go but go behind closed curtains and think we're gonna do something that is in us. And yeah, we just we're very we're I I just believe in that. Like, you know, don't hide from the fact that what what the obvious is, like this is gonna be the most important game this team in this region was gonna have for a very long time. So we needed to celebrate it. Um and we we backed ourselves from the work we do.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, mate, absolutely love it. Now, mate, it's been a privilege. I just want to sum up, and it's a tough one to sum up uh this one because there's so much golden here. I I might just sort of rattle off some of the things that really stuck out for me and I'll I'll sort of see how we go. But this is number one, mate, that your phrase confidence is belief times evidence. And I just think that's a really cool one. And having seen you, coach, I know you do it so well, about collating that evidence constantly for the for the players and presenting it back to them, unleashing it on them so they actually can have the evidence themselves because often players don't actually get to see the evidence unless it's been presented to them. They're in their own little worlds, and that's where you do this so well. You embrace the weird and wonderable where you clip these heroic moments from matches, which are the evidence going forward, which then builds belief, which gives you confidence. Love that sort of thing. I think it's something all coaches can take. Number two is what you did in this Ranfilly Shield week is you tried to remove the white noise, just even speaking less. The two minutes of showing a car a park in 1978, just letting it hang, the um quietness of just reading a letter, removing all this other distraction and just embracing it simply and efficiently. At the same time, you also said that it's important that you had some shock and awe factors. What will rattle these guys? And went through your database of clips and things like this and pulled out something that you'd been preparing for this moment for the whole preseason. I thought that was a lovely combination. Remove the white noise and have a little bit of shock and awe. And you also referred to the Tunny Magic, this magical creature and embracing that aspect inside your team. Number three, I actually loved that you keep coming back to this word care and love. And sometimes those words get met with sort of airy fairy, oh, that's not tough enough for this sport. And I completely disagree with that sentiment. We discussed today when you use the word how much do you care, and you flip it back onto players, that really gets people wanting to do things better. And if you want to change behavior, as you said, catch someone doing something good. Embrace the weird and wonderful, clip the heroic moments, and on we go. Embrace the media and have a bit of fun. Brian Martin, what an absolute pleasure to once again, number three, have you on the Coaching Culture podcast in this enormous historic time for Northland Rugby, current Ranfurley Shield holders. What a pleasure, my friend. No, thank you very much. It was great.