Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
The New Rugby Team That Could Change Asian Rugby | Jamie Henry
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A captain’s job gets real when the message is hard and the stakes are higher than one person’s pride. Jamie Henry joins us to talk about the uncomfortable side of professional rugby: selection, disappointment, and the quiet way a results-driven environment can make players feel like decisions are personal. We dig into what actually earns respect inside strong teams, why “no one is bigger than the team” only works when it shows up in daily behavior, and how leaders keep trust intact when not everyone gets what they want.
Jamie’s story runs through Japanese rugby culture, where respect, elders, and the group come first. He shares how the senpai kohai dynamic shaped him, and why he chose to redefine respect on the field as full-blooded effort, not hesitation. That one shift has big implications for multicultural squads, communication under pressure, and building a shared standard without erasing anyone’s identity.
Then we go deep on the Asia Pacific Lions, a new Asia Pacific rugby project designed to create real professional rugby pathways for Asian players outside Japan. Jamie explains the mission, what it is like captaining a team that includes seasoned international stars, and how the Lions pulled off an inaugural match in Colombo, Sri Lanka against Northampton Saints. We also explore Sri Lanka as an underrated rugby hotbed and what success should look like ten years from now: Asian players earning chances in top leagues because this platform existed.
If you care about rugby leadership, team culture, and growing the game across Asia, hit subscribe, share this with a rugby mate, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway.
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Welcome And Meet Jamie Henry
SPEAKER_00Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Jamie Henry. Jamie is currently captain of the newest, hottest team on the planet, the Asian Pacific Lions, which is the Asia Pacific version of the Barbarians. The goal of this team is to bring together established international stars like the likes of Will Genier, Pacific talent, and leading players from Asian rugby nations, and use big exhibition fixtures to grow rugby in Asia. They have just played their first match ever in Colombo, Sri Lanka against the Northampton Saints, one of England's biggest clubs, and narrowly lost 59-42. Jamie has been a professional player in Japan since he was 19, taking on a scholarship to university. He's played for Japan in both sevens and 15s. What a man to have to talk about this new hot property in World Rugby and also his take on culture. Jamie, welcome to the Coaching Culture podcast.
SPEAKER_02Emma, thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be a part of this and just see where this uh court at all goes.
SPEAKER_00Well, mate, it's been a while, just for reference point, we we had a lot of time together living in the same ward in Japan, in Nikoya, with we're both at Toyota, me as a coach and you as a player, and we had a a cracking time together. And and it's one of those lovely reconnection points, isn't it, when we when you come back together with people on this rugby journey, right?
SPEAKER_02It is like uh obviously having spent quite a f quite uh external X amount of years in Japan, and then uh when Simon Cron moved on and you took over the reins at Toyota and got to learn, you know, rugby through your lens and what you're teaching and coaching, and um got to meet your family and your kids as well and your wife. So yeah, rugby's rugby's always been a vessel where you just create bonds and connections and you may not see them through a few years, but then when you s once you see them again, it's uh it's cool to reconnect.
SPEAKER_00It is, mate, and it is good. R regardless of uh the goods and bads and all that stuff, when you when you come back to it, it's just a people industry,
When Pro Sport Stops Feeling Human
SPEAKER_00isn't it?
SPEAKER_02It is, it's just you create connections over those years, and you know, rugby is such a mining sport, and obviously it's all results driven, and I think uh the human element can get lost in that sometimes. But when time passes and you you're able to reconnect, it's just awesome to go down memory lane.
SPEAKER_00Well, what do you mean by what's your examples of just on that phase, mate, when the human element is lost? Where what do you think, what do you refer to that as? How does that get lost sometimes in a in a professional rugby environment?
SPEAKER_02In my opinion, like it it's more so because when you're in that environment, everyone, you're good enough, everyone thinks they're good enough, and everyone wants to win because it's a results-driven industry. Everyone wants to play, everyone thinks they're good enough, everyone wants to be the man or contribute to the team on the field. And obviously, varying opinions happen where you think something, someone else thinks something, and then you know, in my opinion, you kind of think, oh man, I should be playing why aren't I playing? But in the reality, it's no one's bigger than the team. So I think when you're such a seasoned professional, you always want to play, you want to always want to be part of the solution when something's going wrong, and then you can kind of get sidetracked of oh man, I mustn't be good enough, or this person must not like me, but it's never personal. And I think throughout your years, just for my opinion, you play for so many years and you realize none of us ever personal, it's all about trying to win because it's such a results-driven business, and so that's why I say like the human side of things kind of gets lost sometimes because you it's all about a business at the end of the day, and once when you're going through it, you're like, Oh man, it's a shit for feeling, but at the same time, you're down the track, you're like, Boy, it's it's it's it's just like me. It's it's it's a 15 on 15 between four sets of lines, you know what they ball around, and then at the end of the day, you just there's a win and a loser. You know, it's just perspective on life. No, I've uh I've had my fair share throughout my career, but not only me, but everyone has. And then when you actually get to step back and think about it, it's just like I said, four lines, then on 15, a rookie ball, tackle hard, and a loser.
SPEAKER_00Mate, well, I certainly just you've just sparked in something me there, mate. I remember our we had a lot of interactions because we had to have some of those uncomfortable conversations, didn't we, about not playing and that sort of thing. And I always remember like it wasn't never personal, it was just about my opinion as a coach and what I thought. And I I always r respected the way you uh when I had to tell you that you weren't selected this game. Yeah, you always took it really well. And and one one, you sent me a text one night afterwards and you just said whether I'm playing or not, uh I've got I've got ya and I'll do everything I can. And I just remember that text because it stood out, and I just went, man, that's that's a class way to to to to respond to those sort of things when uh when you're obviously disappointed that you're not selected, but I always remember that little text you sent uh that night just to say, starting or not, I got you, I'm with you, we're right there. And I just thought I always thought that was just a a a marvellous thing which is in a person that just went, Yeah, what a great man. That's how you do it. You can't always control what you what happens, but you can r respond really well. And that's certainly that, mate.
SPEAKER_02I think yeah, I think what you helped was Shag a lot of Steve as well, because his whole emphasis was no one's bigger than the team. And like I guess having a lot of conversations with you, Evan Simon Cron as well, Jake White, Steve Hanson, you kind of just you have to be you have to always put yourself second to the team, no matter how much you think you should be playing. And yeah, that's I've always been like that. I've always I'll always put a team first for whatever team I'm playing for, regardless of how I feel or felt at the time. So nah. It's good.
SPEAKER_00Mate, I love I love it, mate. It's the testament to you. And mate,
Japan At 19 And Culture Shock
SPEAKER_00you your own story just before we get into this amazing Asian Pacific Alliance, is it's a pretty unique story that you had, mate. You had you you left for Japan at 19, you got a scholarship for university, and you went and you've spent most of your adult life in Asian rugby, particularly Japan. So, mate, how was that experience and and what does that taught you about both rugby and culture that you that that's made a real mark on you?
SPEAKER_02Um yeah, I think at the time I I had to trial for the scholarship with one of my best mates, and so it was like, oh, okay, who's faster, who's stronger, who's fitter? And it was like kind of awkward, but I ended up getting it above one of my good mates, and um yeah, when over did the whole uni rugby scene, which was um it was pretty cool because I I thought it was gonna be like American pie, like that university scene at life, so I think I'll turn into something that I'm just gonna be, you know, away with the fairies and stuff like that, and getting to play rugby. Um, it was totally opposite. Man culture it's second to none. They raise you on respect first. It's always about respecting your elders, respecting the environment you're in, people you're around, always thinking about someone else first. So it was real cool because it's kind of similar to like moldy and Pacific Island upbringing, where you have to respect your elders and put other people first. So um it's good, but in rugby terms, it it can be detrimental because you get to a point where like you're playing with players that have they're playing against people they know and they're older, and there's kind of like the element of oh, I have to respect them to a certain degree, where it can be detrimental for a team sport environment. This is my opinion, because you line up with someone and you want them to do their best and smash another person within obviously the laws of the game, but if they're still being held back by a this senpai core high notion, which is respecting your elders, it can be difficult. This was just what I'd seen through my university years. So, yeah, that was quite tricky at times, but it's no, it's awesome, it's all part of the culture and learning.
SPEAKER_00How did you change that, mate? Because obviously, coming from New Zealand originally, where it's all about just go hard, doesn't matter who you're playing, that's the point of it. How did you balance bringing that side of your side, but also respecting the uh senpai kohi relationships?
SPEAKER_02For me, it was like the only way I could respect it was to like actually play hard and like just give because then you're not giving them much respect if you're trying to hold back or you're trying to put that onto a pedestal. So but it's like rugby's rugby. Like you play hard, you smash each other, and then afterwards you have a laugh or have a yarn, and you um to twine that with the Japanese culture with bowing, having respect. Like it's never lost on on me or like or was never lost on my teammates as well. It was a pretty cool, it was a cool upbringing just to my Asian rugby and going through that ranks of becoming a professional outside of New Zealand.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's a very different journey, isn't it? But I I I I love that concept around you almost reframed respect within the confines of what was already there. You almost said, well, respect isn't on a rugby field is not going light on someone or taking it easy. Respect is actually going hard, like honouring that they're they're older and better, and you go hard on that. And that's kind of a nice little analogy, isn't it? Like to take into that, like just reframing some of these cultural things, using what was already there and then redefining it. It's a really cool way of doing it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it was just the take I took on it. I'm not I'm not showing you respect if I'm trying to hold back because I'm wary of like the culture side of things. It's more of like me showing respect that way. I'm gonna try beat you, I'm gonna try smash you and trying to step you within the laws of the game, but then afterwards it's just it's just footy, you know? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's absolutely and made obviously you you kicked on, you represented um Japan in sevens and fifteen. So you you obviously became very you you brought into the Asian culture, you're born into Japan, you ultimately played for the national teams. Has it changed you as a person, like through and through? Has it changed the course of your life?
SPEAKER_02Uh yeah, I'd I'd be lying if I say if I said it didn't. Um I think that just what it's provided me post-rugby and during it as well, it's definitely changed my life to where I think what what would I have been doing if I didn't have the opportunity to come over? Obviously, in hindsight, you think, oh mate, I probably would have played for the Warriors or something like that, because they're like my favourite team ever. But you just never actually know, you know. And it's like sometimes you think about it, but then in reality it's not worth thinking about because it's just a whole lot of what-ifs there. But I've enjoyed my time. I enjoyed the journey it took me on, a lot of challenges as well along the way. But that's just like everyone in the sport that gets to play at a professional level. A lot of good things that come off it, but then you know, there's also a lot of challenges that come off that life.
SPEAKER_00I love it, mate. Then so I'll see you did such a good job in your and in your time in Japan that Sabia Culda, the founder director and brainchild
Reframing Respect On The Field
SPEAKER_00of the Asian Pacific Dra Alliance, rang you up and said, This is what I'm creating. Would you like to come on board and be captain of this inaugural team? And I know your conversations have been going on for a year and a half or so, but mate, how is that interaction, mate? How how how like well actually before that, can you just give what is it for those that don't know of the Asian Pacific Lions, what's it all about? And then how how have you got involved in this and ultimately leading this amazing uh concept?
SPEAKER_02Hmm. Um, yeah, when Sabia Kedah reached out to me about a year and a half ago about this concept that he had. Basically, the Asian Pacific Alliance are about creating opportunities for Asian players, the Asia continent outside of Japan, to train alongside seasoned professionals and learn what it's like to be in the rigours of a day in, day out of a professional rugby player, and then get to at the end of that conclusion, play against a quality opposition that they may never have the opportunity to play against. Now, when I say that it's within Asia, there's only for sevens, there's the Asia Sevens series where you play against Malaysia, Japan, China, Hong Kong, UAE, Dubai, Malaysia, Thailand. Um, and then outside of those competitions, they don't really get to play anyone else. And so Sabek handed me off the idea of wanting to set up a team where he could bring a top Asian athlete from one of those countries, bring them into a team along with Pacific players that haven't got the opportunity or had played at that level to bring them all together in a team, get them to train together, get them to know what it's like to have early morning wake-ups, train twice a day, gym, and then at the end of it play against a real tough opposition, and just to give them a little insight into what it's like to be a professional rugby player, and hopefully that would open doors with them either getting like a training trial or academy style contract or just getting their name out there. So that was the whole concept around the Asia Pacific Lions, and that's yeah, uh that's what Sabia have thought of. So yeah, it's been cool.
SPEAKER_00It's a bit it's almost uh it's it almost takes the mould of that traditional sort of barbarian style game plan, is it where you just play one off or two off type style, isn't it? And it's is is it like like but unlike the barbarians, which can sometimes be a bit sort of jokey and blase and all that, it's this is a little bit different in that you're actually using it as uh an exposure for these Asian players, particularly the ones outside Japan, right? Because Japan's the only one with a professional league. Some of these other countries you talked about, Malaysia's and things, they don't have professional leagues, do they? So this is quite noticed notably it's quite often the highest I've ever played. So it's it's a real exposure piece, isn't it, for the upskilling of Asian rugby.
SPEAKER_02Yes, well that that was the whole concept around it um of getting those top like one athlete from one of those countries in to train alongside T Z and Vetts just off the top. We had Will Guinea, who's played over a hundred test cats for Australia, Ed Weiss, who's who kept in Fiji at the last the 2019 World Cup. We had Tan Killy, who's played countless um professional teams, uh Titi, who was the Fijian uh number 10. So we had like real real good players to bring in to mix in. Um so that whole concept of trying to create a team where you can expose them to quality oppositions and hopefully get them out there. Um that's what really the Asia Pacific Alliance was about, is about.
SPEAKER_00Mate, as captain, when you've got guys like uh Wise and and Will when they walk into the room with like Fiji and Captain, and you got Will who's played 100 plus games. But what do they how do you how do you use them? How did how did they how did the team learn from those guys? What do those guys bring particularly?
SPEAKER_02Uh I think for yeah, to captain those dudes was I'd say pretty daunting though, to be honest, because how do you tell someone who's done X amount of tests like this is what we should be doing? But when I actually thought about it, um I don't really do anything to be honest, other than just lean on their expertise.
How Japan Changed His Life
SPEAKER_02So basically we had I lean learnt on Will G a lot and also Ed Quirk. Quirky, yeah, man of the people, that guy. Yeah quirky. Certainly is. Yeah, he's got an awesome body as well. Now I just I learnt on all the experiences because we had a big Fijian contingent and the uh Asia Pacific Alliance because they were able to get released. They were able to pick up the offer that was put through to them to come and help out this team. But just touching back onto what you asked, you just you just lean on those players that have so much experience. You don't try to be something you're not, and I don't try to be anything I'm not other than just myself and a few words here and there, but there's so many leaders within that group, no one really was overawed by that.
SPEAKER_00How do you how do you bring that together, man? Because the when you're talking about Asia and Pacific, that is a big range of cultures, and you've got players coming together from completely different countries and cultures and rugby backgrounds. How do you create sort of a genuine team and a culture in only like a few days really? Like how how how do you bring that together?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I guess for us, because we are all coming from different parts of the world, and then even players we had originally put down, some of them didn't turn up, so we're last minute was scrambling to get players through, and yeah, it's just when things are going wrong, you kind of I guess you find a bit of um camaraderie in that and you you're able to just gel a little bit quicker because you think, man, this is supposed to happen, this is supposed to happen, but then you just find solutions, you find live solutions in the moment, and then it creates like a a bond. So I know once we all left, like we're still texting each other on the group chats right now because it was such an awesome experience. Some that an experience that some have never had before, especially bringing in those Japanese boys as well, they loved it. It was just something that I know a lot of team members will cherish and have FOMO right now.
SPEAKER_00I can imagine. I can imagine. And and especially playing in a you play in Columbo. That's so the game you've just had it was against Northampton Saints, one of England's best clubs. Now that's a coup in itself. Now, how did that how did that happen? How did Sabir get that to happen? And what was it like for the team playing in Sri Lanka?
SPEAKER_02Um yeah, so how that came about was originally it was supposed to be
What The Asia Pacific Lions Are
SPEAKER_02Saracens, but for whatever reason it didn't eventuate, and then it moved on to Harlequins. And so all these teams were approached and they all had like tentative agreements set up, but then what for whatever reason it fell through. And then Sabay had reached out to someone in the Saints and just told them, look, this is what was happening. We want to put this game together just to um create exposure for players in around Asia and the Pacific that haven't made their next step up. Um are you willing to lend your name to this concept and this um this event that we have going on? And they were able to they replied, they had a look at it, they had a few discussions, Sabir flew over to just explain it in person, and then they were like, Yep, sweet, that's us, we'll jump on board. And to have the defending European champions is to say that, yeah, we'll we'll take our entire squad because they brought 57 players and staff all over from their organization, and they all flew over. You had like the incoming internationals, Finn Smith, me Pollack, me Freeman, all these guys come over as well to experience this because they're in preseason at the moment. So to have an opportunity to fly to a different country for a preseason game that they're not otherwise used to. Yeah, it's just it's been an awesome, awesome event. That's but pretty much how the sands got involved, and um, you know, uh huge, huge, massive honor to have them a part of the First of A Fixture too in Sri Lanka Colombo.
SPEAKER_00Nah. Well, just knowing um Phil Dalson and and Sam Veste, the director rugby and the head coach there, though those two are particularly are very they love that exposure and that experience as well, and they certainly value what would have been on offer there, this experience to take the whole squad to something completely new out of their comfort zone to a whole different style. That's really testament to them, and that's why they are a champion club because the coaches aren't in their same little narrow box. They're when something comes like this, they're open enough to go, hey, this could be a really uh this could be a game changer for us to have this exposure against something completely different, not just the the rugby style, but going to Sri Lanka for a week and just absorbing that culture and growing the men in their environment. Because I know Phil, both those guys have been on this podcast and they both talk about something bigger than just the X's and O's of the game. They're they're trying to grow their players as people, and when they hear about those sort of opportunities, I can imagine both those two just went, Hell yeah, let's have a look at this. And it's lovely to see that the modern great clubs have this sort of open lens on professional development. And sometimes you can get boxed into thinking, Oh, you know, this is just a young, fresh team, uh, why would we bother? But they took a whole different approach and went, This could be amazing for us. Let's open Pandora's box here and see where it goes. And and I think they would have been particularly stoked with the w the the game. Like it was a huge high-scoring game. 59 42 was the final score. That's an incredible, incredible game. How how was the actual match itself for you guys? Because when I saw that score line, I thought that you've really put your hand up against one of England's best clubs and really started this venture in an incredible way. How was the game and how was the crowd and how was the aftermatch your response from it?
SPEAKER_02The game itself was awesome. Um it was just touching on what you said with Phil and Zeste, where they're like some awesome dudes to just sit down and chat with, you know, over those that seven day period I got to speak to them a lot. Um and just uh pick their brains and just see where they were at with their whole thinking around um agreeing to it. And it was like you said, it's about getting that group of players that and squat that squad out of their comfort zone because they are there's a notion of trying to go back to back for them um in the English Premier League. So um it's it was taking them out of their comfort zone, get into jail even more as a as a squad because you got your top 30 players or whatever it is, and then you got all your academy players that came with them. So it was a huge contingent that they brought over, and just to get them out of their comfort zone, as you said, in a different country, you get to otherwise connect with players you wouldn't really connect with as much when you're back home. So that was the beauty of bringing them on a tour um where you just rely on each other pretty much. But the game itself, yeah, shucks is about 30-32 degrees, the humidity was horrible, uh the ball itself was like a bar of soap. It was a sweetie, but no, it was an awesome game. They it was needed for them as well because they're heading into the season now, and it gave them their young players a lot of exposure against some top athletes that have played a lot of professional rugby throughout the years, but it also got them to work on their systems, which is some pretty cool systems that they've got going on there, but also just to get a good hit out, the game itself was quite physical, but then on our side it was a lot of edge-to-edge attack. There was a bit of kicking as well. Originally, we were like, Well, we're not gonna kick this ball away. Look at who we have in our team. You you realize you're playing like a real professional alpha, and their defensive systems are set, so you're like, okay, there's there's gotta be space somewhere. So we ended up kicking it a bit, but the game itself was awesome, bro. Like having to defend the up-and-coming players of England. They got a lot of talent there, but then also them getting exposed to get like players
Captaining Stars By Leaning In
SPEAKER_02like myself and Will Genia and Namani, I mean not Kelly, Weiss, Charle, who's played for Fiji as well in the World Cup. We had some young players from New Zealand as well, they were just rapid as well. So it was a cool exposure for them, cool experience for them. And the game itself, yeah, high scoring, but um, I think it was a good spectacle spectacle for the crowd because it's just rugby. You know, you you you watch rugby, you see all these awesome tries going on, and the crowd's right behind it, and the stadium was packed. Yeah, so it was what was the crowd?
SPEAKER_00Because a lot of people wouldn't um wouldn't realise how popular rugby is in Sri Lanka, right? Is that the reason why it was yeah you had your first inaugural game there? Because this love for rugby, which a lot of people in the world wouldn't realise is in Sri Lanka.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because well, Sabia being Sri Lankan, uh felt it was only fitting to have it out of Colombo, Sri Lanka as well. And we did originally have some Sri Lankan players scheduled to play for us that was done at the original announcement, but because it coincided with the Asia Sevens tournament that it was happening in China the same weekend, those top Sri Lankan players had to pull out because they were playing for the national side. So it was you know bit better sweet because it would have been cool to have them involved within their own country. Yeah, what people don't realise, Anka rugby union has been around for 140 years.
unknownWow.
SPEAKER_02So no one knows that. Yeah. Wow. And I don't know that in 140 years they've had their rugby union um setups. Not many, the average rugby pundit wouldn't know that. They wouldn't know how far rugby goes back in Sri Lanka. Um and it's such a such a cool sport because at a high school level they regularly get about ten to twenty thousand spectators at their rugby games. Do they they do?
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_02No one would know that. So in their final, I think they had about the crowd was to was 24,000.
SPEAKER_00At a high school rugby game, rugby game, the final. So that just shows you wouldn't know that, man, and and and it's it just seems like uh it wouldn't even be a place that played rugby, but then when you actually get in there on the ground, it is a hotbed for rugby. And I and I know is it is it true too that the there's uh the the princes of in Sri Lanka love the sport and they're they support it hard too.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'll I'll I'll be honest, I wouldn't know that, but I know that there's a lot of corporate entities that love rugby. Corporate businessmen, corporate entities within Sri Lanka that absolutely love rugby. We we did a uh exhibition cricket match against Sri Lankan legend. It was um some of us from the Asia Pacific Alliance mixed with the top stars of Saint uh the Saints boys. So we all had our rugby team versus the Sri Lankan cricket legions. These are like national heroes in Sri Lanka, and they know they love rugby as well. They know how big rugby is. So yeah, I think the game of rugby itself is uh quite embedded in Sri Lankan culture, but you just the average rugby pundit wouldn't never know that. And I feel like this is helping to expose that as well because Yeah, there's rugby is such a big culture in Sri Lanka. Going from our hotel to the grounds, and you just see the uh the high school captains all on billboards around Colombo. The high school rugby captains. So it's cool, bro. It's cool.
SPEAKER_00Mate, this is the this is the cool thing that this this team is doing is it's bringing awareness and highlighting sport in the region on a global, global scale. And that's what sort of barbarians does, but this is now this is the start of something special, this Asian Pacific Lions and the culture that you're trying to generate. Man, it's cool, eh?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, you'd love it, bro. You would have loved it, yeah. It would have gave you like heaps of uh energy to I guess you know how you're real big on storytelling, and would have gave you a lot of adm ammo.
SPEAKER_00I do love the stories, mate. I think stories are special, and I think that's that's why um rugby has a lot of stories because it's essentially a battlefield, and and the stories that come up from that and and how you can draw in things from your history and your people and your cultures and and put it into that battleground
How Saints Joined The First Match
SPEAKER_00scene is something I love doing, and I think it's important because it adds meaning to something. If you if storytelling is part of human psyche since forever, it's how we've passed on traditions, it's how we've passed on sentiments, how we've you know connected as groups of people and tribes and continents and countries. And before the written word was something, the spoken word was the only thing. And I think those stories are so important for connecting people to a higher purpose. Definitely and mate, when we're talking about stories, one of the stories I quite enjoy because I didn't realize it, but David Campisi is the is the director of rugby, I know Sabia called him in as well. Mate, how how is someone like him with a huge profile around the game? What how's that relationship work with you and and what's he brought to the profile and the things of Asian Pacific Lions?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, Cambo, it's um it was cool having him involved. Um you just actually forget like how big of a rugby star he was. He's he would have to be up there like with Jonah Loma in terms of what he's done for the game. Um and that people get lost on like how important he was for rugby at his early stages as well. Um but having Cambo involved, David Campese was pretty cool just knowing like what his take on rugby is and why he got involved with the Asia Pacific Lions was to obviously he supports the concept, but there's things within rugby now that he believes is just too much structure or like everyone plays the same. So it was just him getting involved and trying to create different structures where it's more free-flowing. Um, and that was backed up by Will Uli G. Will Guinea as well. A lot of things, the one thing he's here was see space, space instead of keeping to that structure to get to space. Like if there's space, play it. Like there was enough, there were players in our team that were good enough to see space. There was just getting the communication there because there's whole different cultures involved in that team. So that was like a I guess something you found to be a little bit of a challenge was the communication side of things. But it was such a cool experience to have David Campisi involved to bounce ideas of him, Will Guinea, and Ed Quirk, and then Weiss as well. Uh yeah, it was a fruit salad of all sorts.
SPEAKER_00Did he uh did he teach you the goose step uh as a fellow winger? Did he did he show you how to do how to nail that little concept?
SPEAKER_02Nah, he but he he loves talking about himself, which is cool. You know, Cambo never changed. But no, he he was awesome, just just his little nuances that he has for rugby and teaching our backline that we had of you know believing in what you see, or just your little positionings of things and defense or an attack as well, like having a flat attacking line as well. Go through 12 nowadays, right? Just always skip, skip one, go to 12 with rolls at the back, front or backdoors. So it was more so just trying to do something different that he had the full power to. So it was cool, it was cool to be be involved in with Campo.
SPEAKER_00That's awesome. And it's interesting when you talk about the language, you forget too that there is a multiplete of different languages from Japanese to uh you got Japanese players, English players, even Sri Lankan players, Australian coaches. It's such a you you forget too that if you're just saying it, you've it's it's probably got to be translated three or four different ways across the team, right? So there's uh you've got to slow it down, you've got to keep it kind of simple, right? That's the joy of it.
SPEAKER_02That was definitely you know part of it too, but I guess the the quality that we had for our our team, everyone's played at a high enough level to know like having played in Japan, rugby's universal, you should know things by that time you get to a professional levels. It's really just playing off the cuff and actually getting to know how each other player plays, which was uh it was it was cool, it was a cool challenge to be a part of. And just working off each other's strengths, it was cool, bro.
SPEAKER_00And what do you see, mate? What going forward for this amazing team? Like, how how what what's the ambitions of it? Where where's where where to from here? Like this year was the inaugural game. Where where to from here? What's the exciting part going forward?
SPEAKER_02For the Asia Pacific Lions going forward, it's about keeping that connection with the Saints, but also opening up to other English Premier League teams as well. There's a lot of things in the works to either take the next one to Singapore and with another team because we want to keep it within Asia for the first couple ones. Dubai is another option as well to take the team there, but there's also you have we kind of want to be something different to the Asia-Pacific Dragons, the APD Dragons, because they've done 15s, 10, 7s. I don't think this team will venture down the sevens path because we believe it's too saturated in terms of having all these other teams. But the option to play 10s is is a viable option there, but also Cambo has a lot of ideas that come next World Cup, we'll probably see a couple of games from the Asia Pacific Lions playing within that World Cup
A Wild Game In Colombo Heat
SPEAKER_02time frame. So there's yeah, there's a few things on the horizon. There may be another one by the end of this year as well. So it's cool, bro. It's just just it's just trying to find the timing because we want as many Asian players within the Asian continent to be a part of it, and it's just trying to find the right time to get everyone involved because Japan season starting soon, European season starting, super rugby starts next year, so it's a it's a balance, that's all it is.
SPEAKER_00And what do you think if you fast forward like 10 years? What what do you reckon if if this has all gone to plan, what do you reckon this team will have done for Asian rugby because because they existed, because the Asian Pacific Lions existed, what is what's changed in Asian rugby?
SPEAKER_02If we're looking 10 years from now, if we could say we're a part of getting this player to the English Premiership champions, or this player, this Asian player to super rugby, or this player playing over in England or France. The ultimate goal is to provide those opportunities for players that traditionally don't have anywhere to go past their national semens team within Asia. And that's I think if we can do that, then that's uh just makes this whole team worth being a part of. Hopefully I won't be playing then in 10 years.
SPEAKER_00That's right, mate. But you see you seem pretty committed to the cause, mate. And the fact that you've been named um the inaugural captain of this team with such high-profile players alongside you just speaks volumes of of your character, mate, and the respect you have in the Asian rugby community, mate. So I know you've you'll have a ha hand and uh in the heart in this this team's success over the over the coming years. Is that the is that the bit of a bit bit of the plan for you?
SPEAKER_02Yep, yep. So that's yeah, for the next few years or least, just to see where we can build this up and just seeing how big we can take this team because you you want to be involved in something that's always bigger than yourself. You never want to put yourself, it's always about others. It's always about upskilling others and giving them the opportunity to, I guess, live out their dream of experiencing rugby at a higher level. Because that's what all these players in Asia and the Pacific want, is just an opportunity to put their name out there or just to be a part of something that could hopefully provide them a stepping stone into the next professional league for them. Now I'm I'm I'm real keen to get involved, and I know Sabia's been working awesome around the clock to get this off the ground.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, mate. Well, I certainly from from the outside looking in what what this project is is is exciting. And I love that your whole sentiment around this is about the future and and providing that pathway for Asian players who otherwise wouldn't have it. And I love it how there's just it sometimes it just takes some committed individuals to back something and go hard for something to really take off for the for the future of this this game, but also the people inside the game. Mate, it's been an absolute pleasure, uh Jamie, to have a chat to you. There's a couple of little points here. I'd just like to just to reflect on, just to sum up this this kind of amazing conversation about just an amazing uh event that is happening within Asian rugby. And we started off, they are these, mate. I I loved the start of this conversation. Number one, that we just talked about things are never personal, and we just had that little bit of moment just to reflect on our own journey, myself and yourself, just around coach to player and how things we can reconnect, and regardless of what was said, as long as they were said in a in a meaningful personal way, when you catch up again, it's it's absolutely lovely. And I think just to remember when you're a player that decisions and context is never personal, it's just about the game and the bigger picture in that team first environment. Number two, the thing that I love that you said is how you reframed respect and in the environment moving to Japan, a completely different culture at 19 years of age. You didn't just come in with your way of doing things, but you understood what was on the ground before you, this wider
Sri Lanka As A Rugby Hotbed
SPEAKER_00societal thing about respect, and then you helped reframe it for the teams you were in. But respect was actually going hard against your senpai codify relationship. And I thought that was a lovely contest. And number three, mate, I loved uh how you talked about this team, the Asian Pacific Lions, in its inaugural match, that it didn't all go to plan, like things went wrong as it always does when you're starting something up and there's live solutions to problems, and that your team actually felt comp found camaraderie in these things which weren't going to plan. And I think that's a lovely context for everybody, and particularly if you're starting up uh a big venture in a sport like this with this multiple moving parts to actually celebrate some of the things that don't go well and find uh find solutions, but also find that connection piece, that camaraderie together, and go right oh, this is the journey we're on. Let's get stuck in. And certainly by the feedback I've heard about this team and and where it's going, but this was really right, and the the success of it in this one-off will lead to it flourishing in the future. So I am so excited about the journey of yourself and this team, the Asian Pacific Lions. It's a cracking idea, and it's started with a bang. So, mate, well done on that, and I look forward to seeing how you and this team go over the coming years, seasons, and hopefully decades.
SPEAKER_02That's it, brother. Nah, I appreciate those kind words. That's it, it's just a lot of a lot of kudos goes to Sabir and setting this up and you know the amount of things he's had to deal with it, deal with going through. Then also it's it's easy to just look back on things that are going wrong on the time, be like, we should just give up. And I've heard him say that over the last week, she was like, I wanted to give up. I wanted to give up a week ago, week before, after everything's already paid out for the flights and everything like that. He's he wanted to give up, but just to see him persevere and get to the end of the game and then just have him standing on that podium with his wife and his daughter, that's that's what I was happy about to see to know that he he got to the end of it, and then we were just telling him this is just a step, the first step for of many steps to come. So it was cool, bro. Rugby's a cool vessel, it gets to take you all around the world, and you get to meet people you would never really meet in a normal everyday walk of life. So nah, it's been cool to be a part of and uh it's been cool to meet new people and yeah, just be a part of something different.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, man. Hey and I'll just add on that, mate. Just just and it's not even just a pro level either. It's like in any rugby club, you're not just meeting one or two people, you're meeting you know, whole teams worth of up to like 40 people at a time, and you're you're instantly, and wherever you go in the world and you play, say, let's just say an amateur club, you're you're meeting and experiencing joy with 40 different people of all walks of life, and it's a microcosm of the world, and you're all uniting over a central theme, which is to play this sport, and it's not an easy one at times because you're gonna get hurt, bumps and bruises and all that stuff, and you come together as people, like you said before. And it's not always going right, it's sometimes going wrong, but you've got a community around you from the outset, and that is the joy of this
What Success Looks Like In Ten Years
SPEAKER_00sport.
SPEAKER_02Definitely great sports.
SPEAKER_00Jamie Henry Henry, what a pleasure, mate.
SPEAKER_01No, man. Thank you, German.
SPEAKER_02Appreciate it.