Coaching Culture with Ben Herring

Steve Hansen: Ego and Authenticity in Leadership

• Ben Herring • Episode 2

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Rugby legend Steve Hansen joins us to unravel the secrets of building an unbreakable team culture. Discover how the invisible thread of shared values can bind not just sports teams but businesses and families too. Steve shares his philosophy that team priorities should always come first, offering practical insights on fostering open dialogue and making tough decisions when individual goals clash with the collective vision. Through his experiences, we learn the importance of living these values consistently from the top down.

We take a closer look at the distinction between expectations and culture within organizations, shedding light on how culture nurtures communication, safety, and mutual respect. This episode also highlights measurable aspects of culture—like punctuality and pride in work—and how they signal the health of an environment. Steve's perspectives on cultural dynamics in Japan serve as a fascinating case study, illustrating the delicate balance between tradition and progress and emphasizing the significance of subtle, respectful change.

Egos and leadership take center stage as we explore their complex relationship. Steve offers a candid look at how ego, when managed well, can fuel passion and focus but warns against it becoming a barrier to personal growth. We dive into the essence of authentic leadership, where emotional intelligence and adaptability are key. Steve's anecdotes underscore the importance of a leader's honesty and authenticity, framing success as helping others reach their goals and celebrating their achievements, creating a truly rewarding team atmosphere. Join us for an insightful conversation on mastering ego, adaptability, and leadership success.


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Steve Hansen:

You can sniff a bullshitter out, you know, a million miles away. I was probably like a bull in the gate and I wanted to do it the way. You know we did things in New Zealand. You learn through success, but you also learn through your failures. I was naive enough to think that I didn't feel pressure. We can't be scared, as leaders, of trying things.

Ben Herring:

Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I am Ben Herring and I have been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's episode is with Steve Hansen. Steve is one of the most decorated coaches in rugby history and his incredible win percentage and success rate with the All Blacks make him one of the game's greatest ever coaches, Enough said. Publicly he may seem a dash gruff at times, but believe me, beneath that tough exterior lies a warmth and genuine love for people, and that's a big thing when it comes to creating great cultures. Here he is, Steve. What is your definition of culture?

Steve Hansen:

I'd probably define it as it's either good or bad. It's something that we have with us. It's the unseen connecting thread that runs through a business, a team, a school, a group, a family, and it's either done properly or it's not done at all.

Ben Herring:

It's either done properly or it's not done at all. And do you think, just when you reference a whole lot of things there? It's not just a rugby team, is it? It's everywhere we go, even interpersonal relationships.

Steve Hansen:

Anywhere where you're trying to build a connection, I think there's a culture with it. We know there's national cultures, there's sub-national cultures, there's rugby team cultures, there's sports team cultures, there's school cultures, and they're all based around the values and the way we want to live and the way we want to live. And I think if you went to each of those individual groups, they'd all come up with the same values. And the trick of getting a good culture is actually living those values, not finding the values. Understanding, yes, that's what we want to do and how we want to live, but living them daily from the top down, not the bottom up.

Ben Herring:

Do you have a couple of set ones that you think are?

Steve Hansen:

universal? I guess, yeah, I do. There's things that I would call non-negotiable. For me and our sports team, I think the team is first and the individual is second. That doesn't mean to say we don't care about the individual, because we do. You know, one of your values has to be to value and care and love the people that you want to connect with. However, what's the thing that's greater than all of us individually that we want to connect for? So that's got to be for me, you know, when I was coaching the All Blacks well, now at Toyota, it's always been team first and the individual second. So it allows you to make tough decisions around what's right for the team or the group, the business or the family, rather than getting caught in the emotional side of the individual.

Ben Herring:

I remember you saying once to me I think it's your quote around if people aren't fitting into that culture that you create and want, you can try to change the man, but if you can't change the man, change the man. Is that sort of the end of if someone's not fitting in to the environment and you've done your best to love them and make it work and you just can't? Is that kind of the end game? Is that where the culture is more important and we don't compromise that aspect? Yeah, I think so.

Steve Hansen:

I've used the quote. I don't know who I heard it from. I would have borrowed it off someone else, um, but if you can't change the man, change the man. So our job, uh, as leaders, is to to try and help people. You know, see that what they're doing isn't quite right and it's not the way we want to live as a team or as a family, or as a business, as a group. So that person then either wants to be part of that group and understand that, or they don't. And if they do, then we're duty bound to help them and steer them and direct them in the right way. If they're not prepared to change, then you have to make a decision. Do you want that person in your group? What comes with living those values is trust, and if you can't trust somebody, then yeah, it's. You know, for me, um, I don't care how greater before you are, if you can't trust them, then I'd rather have someone who's half as good, but I can trust 100%.

Ben Herring:

Just when you're talking about getting to essentially buy in. You're good at the narrative and around some of that storytelling around that stuff. That's kind of a motivational piece, right to try sell the values. Do you think that's an important aspect of coaching is to actually try to sell the culture to try, or do you think it should be a bit more inherent?

Steve Hansen:

Inherent's a big word for me, Benny.

Ben Herring:

Yeah, I can send you the show notes afterwards, Steve, and put a definition. Yeah, that would be good. I can send you the show notes afterwards, Steve, and put a definition, yeah that would be good For me.

Steve Hansen:

I don't know if it's about telling a story around it. I think it's more giving the individuals and your group the opportunity to disagree and then commit to the values that the group want. I know for myself if I throw out okay, what do we think about this? Do we want to live like this? Do we want to live like that? And then the majority say, yes, we do. Then okay, what does that look like? What does it feel like? What will we see?

Steve Hansen:

But if you don't agree with that, then you're never going to buy into it. If I don't, as the leader of the group, give you the opportunity to debate it or to discuss it and it's not an argument, it's just you having the opportunity to express your opinion. And so, no, I think this, and it might mean that you subtly change some things, because people hear what you're saying and agree with you. So what you get in the end is a group of people that have either said right, I 100% agree with that, I'm doing that. Or you'll get a small group of people that said, look, I don't agree with it, but I'm prepared to disagree and commit because the majority are saying that's the way we should live, and the important thing about what comes out of that is, if it's proved to be the wrong way, then we've all failed, but if it's proved to be the right way, we've all succeeded. So there's no, I told you so's and I always find that honesty and vulnerability.

Steve Hansen:

And you know, we could all write them down on a whiteboard and come within one or two or three words that are. You know, we could write 100 words down and it would all be pretty much similar. That's the values we want and you see them all the time in the big businesses. They write them on their wall and you see them in the sports teams. That's not the hard part. The hard part is having the discussion around okay, what does it look like and how do we deliver on those things, and then agreeing and committing to them on a daily basis. And, as I said before, it's got to be no good if you're at the very top of that tree and you're not living them and then you're telling everyone else they should be. There's people that say, well, hey, ben, you're not, so why would I? Well, hey, you're not, so why would I so? Yeah, look, and there'll be times when people within your group make mistakes, and that's just human life it's.

Ben Herring:

You deal with those, but the expectation is, this is how we're going to live the majority of the time and and do you think just you said there about, like, if the majority agree or and and the minority disagree, we, we, uh, but at what point? Like if we take that back to the family sort of thing, if the majority of our family decided we want to go to McDonald's for dinner, we'd be doing that every night because that's what the majority at what point I would have to say or my wife particularly, as you know, would say we're not doing that and put your foot down and be quite bullish. At what point, in this sort of stuff in you know, would say we're not doing that and put your foot down and be quite bullish. At what point, in this sort of stuff, in a cultural, would you as the head of the operation go? Actually, fellas, I want this to happen because I know best. Is there an element of that which is important to have as a leader in the group?

Steve Hansen:

I think what you're describing that's not culture, that's an expectation, you know, like if we had an expectation that we're going to eat at McDonald's all the time. Well, okay, is that healthy for us, you know? And no, it's not. So, okay, let's have a discussion around the idea of doing that. Then why isn't it healthy for us? And we educate and we show people, okay, we can go to McDonald's, maybe once a week or once a month or whatever we're comfortable with, but certainly there's going to be a consequence if we go every week, every day, every night. So we're not doing that and you're steering them towards that through education, whereas the culture is more around the unseen things that you know.

Steve Hansen:

Do you want people to be able to have conversations with each other? Do you want people and be safe having them? Do you want people to care about and value each other? Do you want an organization that values the work ethic of its people rather than just expecting it to be happening? You know, you find that when you have those values ticking over, nicely, your environment's a pretty good place, it's humming and everyone's connected and the work ethic is extremely strong. And it's not. Look, it'll never be perfect. There's life not. However, you'll have been in places where, when that's happening, it's a great place to be, and when it's not happening, you know it's just a bloody nightmare.

Ben Herring:

And is it all subjective, steve? Like, can you measure? Like when you're talking about it's a nightmare, like, is that just a gut feel on the culture? Like it's not working, it's not right? Have you got any specific measurements? I think?

Steve Hansen:

there's measurements like are people turning up late? Are people respecting how we want to conduct ourselves? Yeah, I think you can measure that. Do they have pride in their work? Do they actually have pride in the organization? Is their behavior reflecting our values? So they're measurable. It's not a measurable thing, though, that you would say, well, okay, there's five out of ten people doing it, because then you can see that there's people that aren't, and then that tells you your culture's not quite right. Something's missing. Why is it missing? And you go searching for the answers of why it's missing. We've got, and you go searching, you know, for the answers of why it's missing. Like we've got people turning up late all the time. Well, why? And then you either address it or you don't, and if you don't address it, then there's more creepage. Does that make sense?

Ben Herring:

Yeah, it does yeah, yeah. So you've almost got to stamp it out from the outset, like when you see a standard that's been breached if you walk past it.

Steve Hansen:

Yeah, well, that's a saying that we get all the time, isn't it? Every standard we walk past is one we accept.

Ben Herring:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've heard you on that one. Now, specifically, steve, around culture in Japan at the moment. How are you finding that transition? You've been there a number of years now. It's a different place. It's an interesting culture, fantastic culture. Harder to crack, slower to crack. Traditionally, everything's a little bit more set. The culture is very different. How have you found that yourself? How have you adjusted to coming from where you've come from, to then into a Japanese company, I think the subculture is the same everywhere you go, japanese company to them.

Steve Hansen:

I think the subculture is the same everywhere you go. And then the subtle differences come from your society and the makeup and the history of that society. And Japan has some wonderful, wonderful traditions. They're wonderful people, they're kind, they're caring. However, there's some traditions they have that get in the way of them actually making some progress for their young people. I think they've used the traditions in a way that they've not been intended for.

Steve Hansen:

And you know, you think about the sampai and the respect they have for their sampai, the person who you know, the university system, and it's like if they were playing against them. They just about don't try because they don't want to be seen to be better than the senpai. And I've talked to a lot of our young players about that in recent months and said, well, the greatest respect. You can show that, sam Pye, by showing him that you've learned all the lessons he's given you and be a better player than he is. And it's a little like father and son, like the one man in the world that wants, you know, your son to be better than him as your father. Yeah, yeah, and we all do it in different ways. That's really what we want, and when we understand that and when I talk to these japanese boys about that, they, they actually there's a light goes on in their eyes and they, wow, I've got permission to actually show him because they really want to, they really want to be respectful and I love that about it.

Steve Hansen:

And sometimes, you know, poor leadership creates poor environments and sometimes, if you allow the age thing, which is a big thing over here, you know, I always find it interesting and I'm lucky, I guess, because I'm 65, so I'm older than most of them anyway. But if you're younger, you can't talk to somebody who's older and be more authoritative or, you know, your idea doesn't work. For me, that's not a healthy situation. I think you have to have robust discussions that are heard but are robust in that fact that they challenge us to be more flexible in how we think and how we operate in our environment, so we get the best of what we're after, so we don't waste time going down dead-end roads. Because I can hear you, just because you're younger than me, I can hear you tell me well, that idea is going to end up looking like this and is that what we want? And me being flexible enough to hear that and go well, no, it's not. Maybe we should scrap that and let's move on. What else have we got? Or even turning a good idea into a great idea, because people in the room who are dealing with the issue that you might be talking about are adding to it. We don't all have the answer, but we all might have part of it, and if we can add all those parts together, we get a great answer.

Steve Hansen:

So the society here I do love it, but there's little things that we try and change. You go out for a drink and you see them put their glass lower than your glass because they consider you to be higher in the pecking order than they are. So I just take. I love taking the muck out of that. I always take my glass to the very bottom. I've seen you do it.

Steve Hansen:

For some of them. They don't like it, but we joke about it, we talk about it and we go. Well, here we're all. I want us all to feel the same. We're just as important as each other, because we can't make this thing better if we can't all feel like we have an invested interest in it.

Ben Herring:

Yeah, I think, steve, one thing I really enjoyed the way you'd done when you just talked then about subtly trying to change it. Like, having been in Japan a while myself, I've seen a number of foreign coaches come in, and including myself, at times at the start where you aggressively try to change it and it falls flat in your face because it's too big a jump. Uh is, would you recommend like in any culture but japanese, japan being the extreme version that a subtle culture change along the way is probably a better long term? Like if you just try to say, right, don't worry about if someone's older, if they're the senpai, just treat them as is. If you try to bring that in too early, that just would fall above.

Steve Hansen:

I was lucky enough and I say lucky enough because it was a privilege to be able to coach Wales. And when I went there I was a hell of a lot younger and I was probably like a bull in the gate and I wanted to do it the way. You know, we did things in New Zealand because I'd come from the Crusaders and Canterbury. The MPC at that time was still very, you know, the MPC was still really, really strong and all the All Blacks were still playing in it, so we'd been very successful.

Steve Hansen:

And so, you know, you fall into the trap of thinking there's only one way of doing something and you can't change things just because you want to change them. You have to have people want to buy into that change and it takes time and you have to respect it, you know. And, um, there's a reason why their culture is the way it is. So respect it, understand it, work your way around it. And if you work together with people and take them with you, then you, you're going to get there. But if you try and bludgeon them, you know there's been times when I've tried that and it still doesn't work, even today.

Ben Herring:

Well, you said something like just around that Wales transition. Steve, you said something to me after a series of losses we had which always stuck with me. You said we have, with the All Blacks you had the record for the most consecutive wins at the time, which in effect made you the greatest coach in the world. But people forgot the backstories. When you were with Wales, you actually had the most consecutive losses in a row, which effectively made you the worst coach in the world, and I really dwelt. I thought about that, the process and I was sort of when I was thinking about this and the cultural pieces. I don't imagine your actual X's and O's of rugby changed a lot, but what I presume changed a lot in that time period was the delivery, the art of coaching, some of the subtler cultural pieces that you're talking about now. Is that just the experience of time in, and is that true? I?

Steve Hansen:

think so. I think if you're not learning as you're getting older, then you're not doing anything. You're staying still, and I'm pretty sure I'm a better coach now than I was when I first started or hopefully I am and you learn through success. But you also learn through your failures and and I think the biggest failure of all is not doing anything, so like we can't be scared, as leaders, of trying things. But as you go along, you've still got to work out. Look, how do I want to do this? Do I want to empower people to do their role or do I want to be a dictator? And I think, over time, you know, you become more of an empowerer because it lasts longer. Success will last longer once you get it.

Steve Hansen:

You're talking about the two records. Really, what you're talking about is perception. The fundamentals of coaching are the same whether you've got a great team or or not. However, you know what is success. Well, one form of success is is lifting all the trophies, and. But if you're a team that haven't done that, and there's reasons why you haven't done it it might be you don't have enough talent, it might be because you don't have the money to spend whatever it might be then you've got to find other ways to be successful, and that's helping young people, athletes, achieve things they couldn't achieve before. Young coaches seeing things that they couldn't achieve before Young coaches seeing things that they couldn't see before. You know staff being better at what they do because you've played a small part in that success. But ultimately, scoreboard success is what everybody judges us by, but only one team can win the World Cup. Only one team can win the Japanese Premiership. You've got to find ways to make sure that you're having success.

Ben Herring:

What happens, steve, when you don't get success? Because that's kind of the measure of a lot of things. It's very easy to say everything's going well when you don't get success, because that's kind of the measure of a lot of things. Like, it's very easy to say everything's going well when you're winning, but where do things go when you're losing? Because when you lose, everything gets questioned, everything gets put under the microscope. In terms of the cultural piece, everything's like pointed the finger at. Your warmup's not good enough. That's the old test when someone complains about the warm-up. But what is losing? How does that stress your culture and your values?

Steve Hansen:

Well, it stresses it, because everyone's not going in the same direction. You know, if you can imagine all the people that you have working for you, whether it be a business, a rugby team or whatever they're they're arrows in a box and the arrows are all going in the same direction. So when you're winning, it's pretty easy to keep all those arrows heading in the same direction. But when you're not, what happens is those arrows start turning around on themselves, or they start going down because they're starting to lose faith in what we're doing, or we're starting to lose the connection and we're starting to lose the trust. So then it really challenges our culture. Um, so that's when I think you've gotta you. You've just got to be sure in the direction you're going in and be clear about it, communicate it, make sure that your, your group's, coming with you, and and then try and find other things that can show the group that you are improving, you are getting better, you are being successful. Okay, we're not winning, but we are getting better because, look at, once upon a time we couldn't do this. Now we can do that with our eyes shut, but it's really, really difficult. It is difficult, it's the hardest thing, and I found when I was in Wales and I didn't want the players to feel the pressure.

Steve Hansen:

I was used to winning. I'd been in environments where we won all the time and I'm a very competitive person, as you know, and I would feel losing more than most people. This doesn't go down well with me internally. More than most people I hate. I just can't. Doesn't go down well with me internally. However, I had a group of young men who didn't have any self-belief, so I had to believe in them and I had to keep making sure that external factors weren't knocking them all the time, because when you're playing that higher level, you're under constant scrutiny or you know what it was like a toyota like this. There's huge expectations um to to be successful and and sometimes those expectations, uh, don't have a lot of reality attached to them and do you just have to be?

Ben Herring:

just how do you get through that? Because it's tough going sometimes when there's that pressure coming on and like everyone questioning what you're doing, and to actually stick through it and just keep your ship pointing in the direction you think is right as the leader, that's just tough, isn't it? Is that just something? How do you weather that?

Steve Hansen:

and get better at that. You've got to have the odd inconvenient conversation with someone that you trust, just to make sure, okay. Well, I want you to tell me. If you don't think what I'm trying to do here is right, let them have the opportunity to tell you. Also, have people that you can just go and vent to. Don't let it bottle up, bottle up, bottle up, just going. I just want I don't need you to give me any answers, any solutions, because I know there's not. I just want to get this off my chest yeah, well, that's what partners and people are over for steve.

Steve Hansen:

Well, that's what partners and people are for, aren't they, steve? It's good to be able to do it outside of the house, too, because you start bringing it home, and I challenged myself not to do that. I didn't want to bring it home, I wanted to be able to walk in the door and just be Steve, and I think that's important too. But having the understanding of what is it that's causing me this pressure and for a long time as a coach, I was naive enough to think that I didn't feel pressure. But that's bullshit. I do, and even still do today. The pressure of wanting success is something that I feel all the time.

Ben Herring:

Has it changed, though with age? No, it's still there. You just disguise it better.

Steve Hansen:

No, what's changed is I understand it. I have awareness that it's there and therefore, when I start to feel it, I have a plan what's?

Ben Herring:

that plan.

Steve Hansen:

Well, the plan is to not get outcome focused, is to keep working on the process, to keep having a plan to not bring that pressure. And you know what are the shows that I'm under pressure of? I'm a bit sharp, I'm a bit grumpy, trying to keep them away from the house, and you know the family and just try and be normal, Do exercise more than you know, than I normally do, which is not very often. So now I'm going, you know, every day it's a little bit cold, probably every second day, but trying to do things that I know help me get through the barriers that cause me pressure.

Steve Hansen:

Everybody feels it. Because we feel it, because we care, we feel it because we care, we care about things and we have an ego and our ego the reason that we're good at what we do is because of that ego. So you don't want to lose the ego, no-transcript, and sometimes we don't. You know, sometimes it gets in the way and you know when it does. Then you sort of go backwards a bit and then you've got to make a whole lot of apologies to people and then start again.

Ben Herring:

I like the way you said. A whole lot of people Steve.

Steve Hansen:

Well, usually, when you get to the point where the ego gets in the way, you're knocking around a whole lot of people. You're not just one or two. So but don't get me wrong. You know, it's not about not having one. It's about making sure you're using it to your advantage as opposed to it's using you to its advantage. Does that make sense?

Ben Herring:

Yeah, it does. So the ego is essentially keeping you on edge, keeping you focused, keeping the care, but you just need to manage that so it doesn't become an unruly beast.

Steve Hansen:

Yeah, you don't become a prick, you know, and arrogant, because that's not who you want to be. No, so understanding who you want to be, you know. So understanding who you want to be is important. I remember us talking about that one day and you know you made the comment for me and I thought it was brilliant. You know, you know who you want to be and that's who you're trying to be when you're. You know when you're doing things and, and, um, particularly when you're talking to people, and I think that's wonderful because it keeps you in check, and not all of us keep ourselves in check as much as we probably should.

Ben Herring:

Yeah, yeah, I guess that leads me to this, steve. I had this mentor, a young mentor, when I started up years ago that said you don't always know what you want to be as a coach and as a leader, but it's often easier just to pick one thing you don't want to be, just to narrow it down. And I found that a really useful piece of information for leadership is the analogy is there's a candy shop and when you as a kid, you're looking at all the options and you just don't know what to pick, and then you say, well, at least pick one you don't want to have, and you pick that licorice all sort, and then that's easy, it's really clear, and then you can just go right. Well, that's helped, and I was told that as a leadership thing as well, there's so many different types of leaders.

Ben Herring:

You can get caught up on all these things you could be, but just start with what you don't want to be, and I loved it. So I'd had a couple of things which I just didn't want to be that sort of guy, and then I just said whatever I'm doing, just don't be. That have you ever had. Well, when you started off or even as you've gone through in your career? Have you had anything where you've gone? Actually, I don't want to be that specifically.

Steve Hansen:

Yeah, well, I was lucky to have some wonderful people coach me. Some of them were terrible, but they were still wonderful coaches because they taught me what not to do. And when I started coaching, I sat down one day and actually separated them into groups and those are the qualities I like in that person. Those are the qualities I do not ever want to do from that person and, funnily enough, sometimes one person had qualities and bad qualities, but what I worked out was well, yeah, I don't want to ever treat an athlete like that because that's how I got treated and I know I didn't like it and I still do, to this day, work on the theory.

Steve Hansen:

Okay, if I was this athlete I'm about to have a conversation with, how would he or she want me to deliver this message? You come to realize that, as a player, a lot of coaches can't have the hard conversations, so they're not quite as honest as they could be. I don't think you have to be brutally honest to the point where you break the athlete I'm not saying that but you do have to be honest. And if you're not picking them, then why aren't you picking them and be honest about that?

Ben Herring:

Speaker 1 00,00. So if that's a flip of the coin 50-50, you simply say 50-50-50.

Steve Hansen:

Well, I had that conversation one day with Angus Gardner, who was an outstanding player for Canterbury Blanca, and him and Scott Robinson were both playing seven at the time and a year later I shifted, raised it at eight, but both of them were outstanding. I think Angus Gardner should have been an All Black and Scott Robinson was, so we had two very, very good players in one position and you can only pick one of them. And Razor was playing well and so was Angus. But this particular game, I don't know why. I just felt that Razor's style would suit his opposition better, him starting and Angus coming off the bench. When I sat with Angus to tell him he wasn't playing, I told him that I said look, I can't tell you why I'm not picking you. Not because you're not playing well because you are. I said but so is Razor. Not because you're not playing well because you are. I said but so is Razor. And I just feel in my gut that for this I can't explain why, can't put it in words, why I just think his style of performance will better suit him starting this game. And he said well, you can't do that. You know there's got to be a reason. I said well, you want me to make one up or do you want me to be honest? I can make it up if you want, but I'll just be telling you. And he looked at me and he goes oh well, and I don't want you to make it up, I'm so okay, well, I'm not gonna. I wasn anyway. I've just told you why, and I don't know why. I just have a feeling. And you know the next game he started and the next game he started, and then you're having conversations with Razor and you're talking to Razor about why he's not being picked as a player.

Steve Hansen:

When I wasn't. I spent a lot of time in and out of Canterbury teams over a long period of time and I don't feel like I really got told why and the simple answer was someone was better. But they couldn't tell you that, because that's quite a hard conversation. Oh well, one day I got told to go down and train with the team and I asked if it was just for the day and they said yeah, and I ended up. It was just for the day, and they said yeah, and I ended up walking over there and got named for the rest of the year as the captain. You know so little things like that as an athlete. They break you, breaks the trust you have in the person you're dealing with.

Ben Herring:

Mate, I just love how deliberate you were in that and they actually drew up a list and put half that side and that side and actually was really deliberate about it, Would you say your leadership on that front has been equally deliberate around. I want to be yeah, you followed through with I want to be X, Y and Z and not.

Steve Hansen:

Yeah, I would say I've been pretty deliberate about how I want to drive things, like because it's who I, who I am. I've tried to be just me.

Steve Hansen:

I'm not trying to be somebody else or somebody else yeah if I just do me, and I do me the best I can. Um, you know, let's see where it goes. But if I try and be somebody else, I'm, I'm, I'm fudging it. Yeah, I'm gonna stuff that up. I'm better to be me and be wrong than bees try and be someone else of who I don't know how to be and stuff that up. You know. Then you know what do I do? That you know, I'd rather stuff up just being me and and look, there's been plenty of times that I look stuffed up. Don't worry about that.

Ben Herring:

I I would rather fail trying to do something than fail doing nothing well, that's very clear in in coaching with you, stevia, it's, it's the mark of you. I reckon you you're prepared to. This is what I'm. Oh, I think let's roll it and see how it goes. It's cool. Well, I actually have one more question, a couple more questions about this sort of stuff, steve, and as particularly around you just mentioned before, around those hard conversations, and you don't break people, like for me having that time with you.

Ben Herring:

What I enjoyed on reflection after leaving was some of our morning meetings, where they got quite heated some of them, and I know you love the robust debates and when I look back on those times I actually know it's helped, shaped and grow me as a coach, because it's given me a bit of a thicker skin to be able to front up against yourself in an argument and do my best to fight my way through it. But how is like? I know you you're good at it in that, that space. But how would you recommend that? Uh, coaches, when they want to stand up for what they believe in, how do they argue it? How do they go well in those sort of confrontational times? Because I think it's a big part of leadership and to get further up the ranks you need to have a degree of. This is what I want. This is what I'm saying. How have you done it and what do you think about that?

Steve Hansen:

Well, the first thing, I think, is to look at it not as an argument. It's just a strong conversation and it gets stronger as you get more determined. And you know it's. It's not, it's not personal and it's it's. It's sharing your belief. And there'll be times when I would have got frustrated with you and rhino and and it sounded like it was personal, but I you, I said I hope you both understood that I cared about you and therefore yeah yeah, it wasn't personal, um, and like you don't have to be right, but you you want to know that the other person is what they're thinking.

Steve Hansen:

And when you know, I I'd get frustrated if I thought I got nothing back. You know, I'm not talking about you guys, but just talking about any conversation. If I get nothing back, then I I'm second guessing what that person's thinking and that I'm like there's nothing worse, like if, if you're talking to me and you're asking me, um, my opinion, and I give you nothing back, uh, you know, it's a, it's a hard old day for you at the office. You're sitting there wondering what he's thinking, you know, like you know, and and then, and then you don't get the opportunity either to say, well, actually that's not a bad idea what he's saying, maybe I have to change, and then it's about, okay, we get to a point where, right, we just don't agree. And then you're saying to yourself, well, why, why am I not agreeing with them?

Steve Hansen:

Yeah, I'm having this conversation, I'm, why am I not a grandmother? Because I've been there and I've done that, I've experienced that and it didn't work. And why won't it work now? Because the same, the same inhibiting factors that won't allow it to work, are still involved in whatever it is you're doing. So you haven't done work, and you're in a situation where you want the other person to see that, so then it's about getting them to see it, and if they don't, then you have to decide right away. What are we going to do here?

Steve Hansen:

Yeah who's the leader. And that was the thing I found difficult as director of rugby, as opposed to head coach, because when you're the head coach, you've got the mandate to say, righto, well, we can't agree here, so the majority are saying this, so that's what we're doing. And if the majority is just, you know, one, two people, then I guess it's the guy who's got the mandate. When you're the director of rugby, you're really there helping guide the head coach because it's his mandate to do what he really wants to do in the end. And it probably didn't feel like that at times with me, I know.

Ben Herring:

Well, the other thing, Steve, which I think is a really good skill set of yours, is just around your ability to read people and know when to push, when to pull back, when to hug, when to wave the stick. How have you grown? That side of things I know. When I first got to Toyota, you talked a lot about the IQ, the EQ, the AQ stuff. Is that something which you've delved into for your own? Leadership is understanding the different types of people and how far you can push people. Is that part of your leadership?

Steve Hansen:

For me good leaders. They have some form of IQ.

Ben Herring:

Yeah, that's right.

Steve Hansen:

But it's not like if you can think of an iceberg, it's the tip of the iceberg is the IQ Underneath? It is how you can manage the people that you want to lead. And, like you're not born a leader. People choose you to be the leader. They'll choose you because they'll look at you in the moment. Okay, what do we need to do here? And you can never rise above the opinion you have of yourself. So you've got to work out your own faults, understanding that the past doesn't have to equal your future. You know, like the past is the past and you don't always have to be like that. The future doesn't mean to say you're going to be like that. The future is whatever you choose it to be through your development and your actions. But what have you learned about the past? Well, I've learned that when I behave like that, you know I'm I'm. I'm faking it until I make it so. When I see that in an athlete or another human being, I know they're faking it because I'm comparing it to something that I've done.

Ben Herring:

Can't bullshit a bullshitter. That's the quote, isn't it?

Steve Hansen:

Well, that's the quote, and it's probably very good. You can sniff a bullshitter out a million miles away. However, there's another thing that I think that helps you lead well, and that's your ability to adapt on the run, and that's what they call the AQ. So your adaptability. Okay, you're going down this path, but you're reading the signs and go. Well, I'm not going anywhere with this, so get out. We need to change tack here.

Steve Hansen:

And I was lucky. I was brought up on a farm and animals teach you a lot about body language, you know, because they can't talk, obviously, and you know they're dangerous If they they get angry. You don't want to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. So you know we're dairy farm and you're dealing with big animals, so you don't want to get hurt. So you're watching all the time what's the body language? And and then, yes, I started probably doing it with people and, and you know, you can see in how a person holds themselves, how they're feeling, you can see just where they are with their confidence, with where they're there. They really believe.

Steve Hansen:

And I got taught early on, I guess, a little bit through the police, a little bit through my father, mainly about asking questions. You know why, what, who, when and everybody can answer the first question, everybody. So I don't believe the answer to the first question. So if I'm not sure and I don't know you well, I'll probably ask you another one. And then if I don't know you really really well, then I'll ask you probably two or three more. I don't know. Okay, he's got it, he's not, he's not faking that and and like over time you get. Okay. When Benny tells me that I know he's got it, uh, when? When Johnny tells me that I know he's got it, when Johnny tells me that, okay, I need to ask Johnny a couple more questions because I know in the past he hasn't really got it and he's too scared to ask, and that's not his fault. Something in his upbringing has made asking questions or asking for help really difficult for him. So I have to help them get there. That's my job.

Ben Herring:

Does that make sense? That does mate, would you say. That's quite a nice little mantra, isn't it? Don't ask just the one question like the follow-up question.

Steve Hansen:

Well, just don't assume that they know in depth just because they answered one question. You know Because most of us can answer the first question.

Ben Herring:

My love, righto, my love. Hey, steve, mate, I'm really enjoying it. But I will just start to wrap it up, mate, because I know you've got a lot of prep to do for the weekend coming up. I'd just start to wrap it up, mate, because I know you've got a lot of prep to do for the weekend coming up. I'd just like to finish up, mate, with privately, what does success look like for you? Because we all know winning trophies, all that stuff, most coaches are competitive, so we know what, publicly, success looks like. But I'm really intrigued to see what keeps you going privately. How do you define success for you, like, privately? Have you got any little things which just keep you, keep you on the even keel, despite whatever stresses, whatever else is going on with on field? What keeps you privately?

Steve Hansen:

I guess the thing that keeps me motivated to still be coaching now after such a long time is the same thing I really loved about coaching when I first started was just being able to be amongst a group of like-minded people. For one, the camaraderie is wonderful having a bit of banter. One, the camaraderie is wonderful having a bit of banter. But the biggest thing of all is being able to say I played a small part in helping that person achieve something they wanted to achieve and seeing the joy that that person gets from you know, to me that's success in its own right. You know, that's the most successful you can be.

Steve Hansen:

I often think athletics is a wonderful sport because if you're running a race and you run a PB, it's really easy to say, well, I've got better. You know, I've done the best I can and I've run last, but it doesn't matter, I've done the best I could and I've run last, but it doesn't matter, I've done the best I could and that's an achievement. If we all did that every day in our life, what a wonderful place it would be. But we can't. But we can strive to be better. And if we strive to and you play a part in helping that person who's striving really hard to be better and they are and and you play a part in helping that person who's striving really hard to be better and they are.

Steve Hansen:

You know that just that brief moment that they are, it's a joy to be part of it and it's not. You're not sitting there jumping off the highest mountain the world saying, yeah, I did that, I did that, I helped him. It's just a wee subtle thing knowing, you know, I know, I know I helped him today. You know, I know I know I helped him today. That's good, it's been a good day. And go and have love it man. A wee biscuit and away you go or two or three biscuits right or a beer or a couple of yeah and a ramen or two.

Ben Herring:

Yeah, steve, hey, thank you. Thank you, man. As always, I love, I love our conversations together and I really reflect on our time standing on those fields behind the boys running around chewing the fat about things other than rugby certainly are my most favoured memories of you, mate.

Steve Hansen:

It's been a pleasure, pleasure, benny, and it's a pleasure being able to call you a mate. So good to see you and hope things keep going well over there.

Ben Herring:

Cheers, mate, go well. Here are some final thoughts and my big takeaways from a conversation with Steve. Number one live your values from the top down, not the bottom up. Set the standards yourself, so your team naturally follows suit, making sure your actions match your words. Famously, mother Teresa said be the change you want to see in the world, and that's a great one to live by. Steve mentions that when you lead this way, you build credibility and real trust, which is what all good cultures are made on.

Ben Herring:

Number two don't lose the ego. Master it. Steve says ego isn't the problem. Uncontrolled ego is. Your challenge is to channel that competitiveness to raise the bar, while staying humble enough and self-aware enough. When you can master that, your ego can fuel excellence instead of potentially derailing it. Number three adapt on the fly. Success often hinges on timely decisions and quick pivots. Your AQ, as Steve refers to it. He mentions about keeping a tight circle of trusted advisors, but the same time, don't be afraid to take action or to pull trigger and back yourself. You don't have to be perfect in fact, no one is just stay nimble and adjust as you learn some great lessons from a great coach. Till next time, stay safe.