Coaching Culture with Ben Herring

Kieran Crowley: Balancing Passion and Pressure in Rugby Coaching

• Ben Herring • Episode 3

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Kieran Crowley, a rugby legend and former All Black, joins us to unlock the secrets of building team culture across borders. Discover how Kieran's journey from New Zealand to Canada and Italy has shaped his understanding of cultural dynamics in international rugby coaching. His stories from the field provide a rich tapestry of insights into the delicate art of managing diverse teams, navigating logistical challenges, and embracing the existing cultures before making impactful changes. Trust and loyalty emerge as cornerstones of his coaching philosophy, offering a masterclass in effective team management.

As we traverse through the complexities of international coaching, Kieran sheds light on the nuanced challenges of transitioning from local clubs to national teams. Explore the cultural diversity within New Zealand rugby and the unique hurdles faced in countries like Canada, with its vast geographical spread, and Italy, where internal politics often complicate coaching decisions. Kieran's experiences reveal the contrasting freedoms of coaching club teams in Italy and Japan, where deeper player connections lead to greater cohesion. The episode takes a raw look at the intricacies of maintaining a positive environment amidst the pressures of high-stakes rugby.

Kieran also opens up about the emotional resilience required to navigate setbacks and criticism in his coaching career. He candidly shares his coping mechanisms, leaning on trusted colleagues and family when the stress of the job takes its toll. Reflection on his evolution from a successful player to a coach reveals how empathy and a player-focused approach have become integral to his coaching style. Through personal stories and professional insights, Kieran illustrates the balance between passion and demands, showcasing the broader life lessons sports have to offer.


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Speaker 1:

They work bloody hard. I've never been in a team that you know, off the field, works as hard as they do. Got told three weeks in. You know I'm not going to be there next year and you know I thought I'd made good progress with the team and all that you know, so I didn't handle that one very well. Yeah, it's a good question, because everyone's got to talk to someone. You know everyone's got to have an outlet somewhere, and probably families are the ones that bear it the most. To be fair, we actually got our books at the next meeting and we lit a fire and burnt them. I'm here from World Rugby with a I don't know $10,000 or something.

Speaker 2:

€10,000 suspended, fine, or something if I do say so myself, what do you mean? When's that getting paid? Today's episode is with Kieran Crowley, an All Black from the 1987 World Cup winning side. Since then, he can be described as a nomadic international coach. Having been head coach of both Canada and Italy national teams, he certainly knows how to prepare international sides. Currently he's enjoying his sake and rebuilding the fortunes of the newly promoted Honda Heat in Japan. Here he is. What is your definition of culture?

Speaker 1:

What does it look like for you? I think it's just the environment the environment you know you create, or the environment you have. Look, I've, you know now, I've coached in New Zealand, canada, italy, japan. So I've been in a few different cultures in Canada, italy, japan. So I've been in a few different cultures. Um and uh. I think the first thing is, you know, if you're going into a new culture, you gotta embrace it. You know, you gotta, you gotta really embrace it. Um, you can't go into another environment and take on culture and go in and and uh, you know it and be like the other one. So for me, it's more about the environment that you create, or that's there, and then how you manage that and manage the people in it, because everyone's different. I mean, coaching is just managing people. Really You've got to. Yeah, so my definition of culture probably is that it's the environment you create, yep.

Speaker 2:

And, mate, how did you do that, going from like Taranaki to then going straight into international coaching with Canada, like Canada's a huge country, like with a big love for rugby, with a whole lot of politics and stuff? And when you got there, how did you manage that sort of beast, going from sort of provincial rugby in New Zealand to international? Did you have to grow your culture or did you have to sit back and just see what was there first?

Speaker 1:

I think there's a little bit of a second part there. You know you've got to sit back and see, and then you've got to, I think, um surround yourself with, uh, you know some people that you know you can, um can, trust a little bit. You know what you get on with um. You know you've got to take time to be able to do that um and just make gradual changes as you go. And I think, um, one of the big things is you've got to identify people that are going to help you do it. You know, from a team perspective with rugby, you know you've got to identify some of your main key players maybe who are going to help you, you know, to create the environment or the culture.

Speaker 1:

And so I think it's important that when you go into a new place, that, yeah, you identify people first that you can trust. And you know you've got to do your homework on that. You know you've got to ask other people and that sort of thing, because you've got to get some support for a start. If you don't get that support, you know you're swimming. You know swimming against the tide really, yeah.

Speaker 2:

And does that cultural piece differ quite variedly from like international? Because you've coached a couple of international teams now, is it harder to do international teams, being that you're not with the players all the time?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, look, yeah, definitely. Look, I started off coaching the club team in Taranaki and you know their whole motivation for playing was, you know it was only a little wee town of 200 people and they're all farmers and you know rugby was their outlet, you know, and alcohol played a big part in it in those days. So that was. And then you go to your representative stuff and you knew most of the players because you're in that same province and because you're there, you know the history of the province and you can focus on points that bring them together. Or however you want to shape your culture there. You know the history of the province and you can focus on points that bring them together. Or, you know, however you want to shape your culture.

Speaker 1:

But then you go to international and um, you know, yeah, in international you got a lot of players who've been in a lot of different environments or a lot of different cultures. Um, in new zealand, you know you've got all the different nationalities. You know you've got the island boys and the Maoris and then the English. You've got a bit of a melting pot. I suppose In that respect, you've got to try and bring them all together In the same breath. You've got to let them have their own personalities and that sort of thing. And then I went to international rugby, obviously in Canada and Canada's very how would I put it? It's a very couch-orientated sporting support. Everyone sits on a couch, you play rugby or you play sport until you leave university and then you are a sports supporter, basically.

Speaker 2:

So you're dealing with all the guys with a skin full of pints under them, giving you loads.

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah, you do. But you know you've got to create. You know, when you say, you know Canada's a massive country, you've got it's just about four or five countries in one Canada. Because I mean, if you go way over to the east coast, to St John's for example, you know they're a completely different mindset than people in Vancouver or BC and then in the prairies it's a different sort of mindset as well.

Speaker 1:

So it's probably harder to do that sort of squad from all over the place when you haven't got them, because we used to only get them like a week before, uh, a test match, for example, and you know. So you had to. Basically you had to try and get a game plan and all that in place. But then you also had to try and do some um, some, you know, cultural stuff, um, so the best time for those international teams is actually a world cup year, because you actually get them, you know, for a period of time.

Speaker 1:

So then you know, you look at, then you go to a club, you know, like in Italy, you know they had a Benetton club. You have them for you know it's a full time the whole year round. You only have, you know, two months off for the whole year and then here in Japan it's exactly the same. So you know you have a lot more time to be able to do things with players or have team building stuff or whatever it might be, which you don't get in international rugby unless you are the coach of a top team like New Zealand or things like that. You can bring your players in for your leaders in for three or four days and you can have to work with them, whereas in Canada the only contact we would have with our leaders and that was, by you know, a Zoom call or something like that, which is not the most efficient way to do things.

Speaker 2:

One of the questions I was keen to ask is like, when you're doing the international stuff I do know that some of the politics when you get to international level can like get it stuck in the way of of the culture development is how have you managed some of that stuff? Like big country both Canada and Italy, like different views, different ways of doing things how have you managed essentially that upward management of all the different factions and things?

Speaker 1:

yeah, look, uh, to be fair, in Canada I didn't find it that challenging in that respect. You know, we had a director of rugby there for a while when I was here who used to do take a lot of that sort of stuff. I suppose, yeah, I had real issues in Italy. I had real issues there with you know, the president runs everything in Italy and my view on you know, that sort of chain is that you know they are their governance and they should leave the on-field stuff to the coaches. Well, he crossed that line a lot and I had some real challenges there to the extent that I was probably trying to manage him more than I was my team. Did you do it? Well, no, I didn't, because I knew he might have got rid of me.

Speaker 2:

Well, mate, Well, I guess that is an important question too, when it comes to both leadership and culture. Is dealing with setbacks like that, like how did you weather that storm? Like when you get let go from teams, is it tough on the soul or are you pretty weathered with that stuff now?

Speaker 1:

Oh no, it's always tough. I mean it happens to all coaches. You know you haven't coached, unless it's happened to you. You know I was in a situation. Well, italy, for example, I was at Benetton and I got told three weeks into a competition which is 18 weeks long or 20 weeks long, I got told three weeks in I'm not going to be there next year and I thought I'd made good progress with the team and all that. So I didn't handle that one very well in the respect and probably around cultural management that one was, you know, I knew who was taking over the guy. One of the other coaches was taking over. So I sort of thought, okay, well, if he's taking over, you know I want to leave it in the right place. So I allowed him more control, basically, and I let him go too far. And it wasn't until sort of, you know he'd gone too far that I you know when I say gone too far, you know he wasn't doing some of the things I felt that were important. So it wasn't until I sort of pulled that back a little bit that we sort of got it back on track.

Speaker 1:

In my view you know only my view for the rest of that season. You know, if I had that time again, I'd probably, you know, be a lot more on the ball pulling back a little bit. And then, you know, it happened the same with Italy. You know, I got told way before we even went to World Cup that I'd gone at the end of my contract. But that's different. You know, international rugby was different because you're not with the players all the time and, look, you've just got to. You're never weathered. You've got to do your best because you just got to. You're never weathered, get weathered. You got to do your best because you know you're a professional and you have to. You know. Well, my thing is you're always trying to leave it in a better place than when you got there.

Speaker 2:

Do you have any ways of dealing with it? Like, do you talk to Sue or do you have outlets that you? You know, when this sort of stuff, when the stress becomes too much, you have a I need to chat with this person or mentors, or how do you deal with that? Because you're with a lot as a coach and probably a lot of coaches listening to this struggle with that aspect, like when the pressure comes on. You don't know those pressures when you're watching from the sidelines, but it's pretty sometimes personal it's. It's it sort of gets you in funny ways which you're not quite expecting when you're actually in the arena. Do you have any ways that you just sit back and go right, this is happening, so I need to do x uh, it's called a bottle of red wine well, it leaves the perfect place it's um, yeah, it's a.

Speaker 1:

It's a good question that because everyone's got to talk to someone, you know everyone's got to have an outlet somewhere. Um, you know, and probably families are the one, that ones that bear the most. You know, um, you know your families they cop criticism, you know, about you and all that sort of stuff, so they probably cop it the worst. Yeah, look, I just I'd like to think I talk a little bit to my wife about it, but you know she would probably beg to differ on that.

Speaker 1:

Look, I go and you have a couple of good coaches that you are pretty good, pretty close to. I've been lucky with guys like Neil Barnes in New Zealand and a couple of Canadian coaches who I thought should have gone further in the coaching field. And you know guys like Marius Kusin and Matthew who's now here with me in Japan. You know they're good guys. I've found them good guys to talk to and you know, so you've got to have someone to talk to. You know, outside of rugby I haven't really got anyone that I've talked to, but I know lots of coaches do. But you can't just bottle it all up inside or else you're going to explode.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and just on that, when you're talking about guys like Barnsey and Goosen like you do stick to a lot of those guys when you get new roles, you're quite loyal and you bring those guys with you Is that just quite an important thing? At the level you're at is to get people you trust and can have these conversations with, and when there's the opportunity to be able to bring them in, like what you're doing now with Honda in Japan is that something you leap on Like you really love the idea of coaching with mates.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think, ben, you've got to have for your whole culture or your whole environment. And, as a head coach, if you're in a country where, for example, in Italy, I didn't speak the language, japan, I don't speak the language, you've got to have someone around you who you can really, you know, you can really know you've got their support, you know. And then, in Italy and in Japan, you know you're trying to bring on their local coaches as well, but you don't know them and you know quite often, well, in both cases you know they've been basically appointed for you. So you've got to have someone you can trust, that you can bounce ideas off, that you know is going to challenge you and that's good at their job. And I think that's a big part of the. You know they pull you back in line or they say, nah, maybe you should be doing this or whatever. So I think it's a big, big part of it. Yes, yeah, particularly when you're in a country where you don't speak the language yeah, right.

Speaker 2:

And what about yourself, karen, like, like, I do know you as a very laid-back guy when you're coaching. Is that underneath, as it is laid-back and as chilled, or is there a degree of underneath it? There's an alter ego under there, like that's driven and focused and pushing the boundaries behind closed doors, or what's your style of coaching pushing?

Speaker 1:

the boundaries, behind closed doors, or what's your style of coaching? Yeah, I think I'm a little bit probably too laid back at times.

Speaker 2:

What's the downside of being too laid back?

Speaker 1:

I think one of the biggest things I found in Italy and I've also found here in Japan is that players don't give you much. You know they're very respectful. Well, in Japan anyway, they're very respectful. They don't. You know you're trying to get player-led organizations or players making decisions or taking ownership and all that, but in Japan, you know the Japanese culture is very respectful and they won't give you answers to anything because they're too scared that they're going to give you the wrong answer, which then will offend you or things like that. So that's been a learning experience for me from a coaching perspective. So how you manage that and how you start, how do you start to get them to contribute, has been a learning experience which is still happening. You know, around trying to give them more ownership and probably taking a backwards step, but directing them in the right way. And look, as far as the other part goes, yeah, you don't wake up at three o'clock just about every morning. You know thinking about the game and not to be driven to times of sin. So you know there's all that behind it. But look, you've also got to have it's also the sun still comes up in the morning. You can't.

Speaker 1:

I was talking, I had an interesting conversation with a S&C guy that I was trying to get here with Honda and he was getting out of rugby. S&c because he says. He's very true in what he&C because he said and it's very true in what he said. He said he doesn't like the fact that you could have a really good week. You know you could train really well all week, whether it be in the gym. You know you do everything you can and then everything the whole atmosphere is governed by your result on Saturday and you couldn't have done any more. And so he just didn't like that. And that's a very true point.

Speaker 1:

I think you've got to understand that as a coach too, you just might not have the best players. There might be a couple of things that just go against you in the game or something like that, and you've got to understand that sometimes it's not, for sometimes you might not just be good enough. So you've got to understand all those sort of things too. And you've also got to understand that when you're building a culture for your team too, that sometimes they might not be good enough. Maybe not every team can win the championship, not every team can be undefeated, or anything like that. So you gotta, you know, have realistic expectations I actually read a.

Speaker 2:

I was having to listen to some of your words, man, when you lost 96 17 to the all blacks in the world cup, and your quote was uh, we might not even look at it. Chuck it in the bin and look ahead, we'll see. And I thought that was, is that? Did you do that? Yes, we did.

Speaker 1:

Well, we actually, to be fair, we actually got our books at the next meeting and we lit a fire and burnt them, did you really? Yeah, we did. We had a bit of a ceremony to try and get it out, but then the president come in and he ruined everything, because he sat them all down and tore strips off them and we were back to square one again.

Speaker 2:

Wow, because that's a really interesting one, because when you're playing against the All Blacks who are on fire, that scoreline can easily happen to anybody. And then to someone come in and just give that one. How did you bring the team back after that, or was that? Was that tough going?

Speaker 1:

oh no, we didn't give him back, mate. I thought we had him in a reasonable, uh mindset after that. But then the next day when he did that, um, yeah, we, yeah, I just lost him again. You know, we, we were just lost. And then we had france after that and see, both new zealand and france had to, had to win those games, or they were out of the World Cup both of those games. So, yeah, and then France got 50 or something on us but yeah, no, we never got them back. I could see it in their eyes. They were just, I mean, that All Black one was, yeah, we went off script a little bit, you know, we possibly thought that we had a chance and they were on fire, like you say, and you know, then we started going as individuals and you know, it just turned to custard after that. And then, yeah, we just didn't get them back for that last one after they were blasted like that.

Speaker 2:

Do you think that kind of attitude like is almost a thing of the past these days, or do you think there's still an element where you need to give that sort of rocket? Because there's a sort of a changing movement around coaching which is all about the process over the outcome, which may differ slightly from the older sort of school where outcome is important. The main focus like is there a sort of a cliche or an attitude towards giving a team a rocket like that which is valid, or do you think it's never valid?

Speaker 1:

Oh, there's always a room. There's always a place for it, I think, but it's got to be for the right reason. I mean, you give it when you know maybe the mentality's not quite right, or you know the effort's not quite right, or things like that. So I think there's a place for it. But you can't do it every week either. You know you've got to pick and choose your time and then it'll have more effect.

Speaker 1:

But look at the top level now, if players go in and they're not ready or they're not going to give it 100%, they're not going to last. I know our Italian boys, for example. They work, work bloody hard. I've never been in a team that you know or feel works as hard as they do. You know, just around their, their meetings, their clarity, their, you know, analysis and all that sort of stuff, and and um, you know, and, yeah, every team gets the odd day where they are mentally not quite on or something like that, because at international level it only takes a couple of things now and you know you get met by 30, 20, 30 points. So, to answer your question, you know, I think there's still a place for it, but it's got to be for the right reasons okay, yeah, and in terms of that loss, how does it?

Speaker 2:

how does losing affect your own headspace with stress and stuff, like in your approach to the culture, like if you say had several losses where you maybe shouldn't have, does that start mounting a bit of pressure on yourself, or are you pretty good at just being able to brush it off your shoulders?

Speaker 1:

I think you never brush them off your shoulders. But I think you've got to be realistic. I think I'm realistic in what the expectation is From my expectation of the players we've got and the coaches and the coaching you're done. Look, you always go into a game wanting to win it. You're always wanting to win it. But you've also got to be realistic around. Italy, for example, is never going to win the World Cup, but if we had a really good tournament and maybe won one game, you might just about get top eight. But that was a realistic sort of goal, I thought. But to say that you had to be either new zealand or france, so that was going to be a real challenge in france and western england. So so the realistic thing around that was to qualify the next world cup. And you know, and we did that, you know. So, um, you know, and then you come to Japan and you have to have a real list of goals of where you're at there too.

Speaker 1:

We were just promoted last year and we got some bloody hidings last year. I must admit, last year the manner of the hidings or the manner of the defeats was yeah, it was playing on me a little bit, um, and then you know I was looking at you know, uh, you have a sit back and you think, okay, well, where can we improve? And so you know we look to try and make little improvements. And I think you know we made little improvements as the season went on and we survived. So this year I would hope that we've made little. You know we can make some more improvements and get a few more or survive a little easier maybe.

Speaker 2:

Survive easier.

Speaker 1:

I love it. So yeah, it does play on your mind if they go back to back to back, you know. But look, I've been. One of my probably benefits since I've been coaching is I've never, ever coached a real top team. I've always coached teams that have been in a situation except New Zealand under-19s who anyone could have coached them? But I've always been teams that have been at the bottom of their table or not very high on world rankings. At the bottom of their table, or you know, not very high on world rankings or you know they haven't been a top team. So the expectation of probably the people is that, yeah, we're going to lose.

Speaker 1:

But I had a great experience when I first went to Benetton in Italy. They were bottom of the table and the sporting director there said to me okay, first year we want to see an improvement in play and maybe a couple of wins. Second year, you know, if you can get a couple more wins and up towards the middle of the table, that's what we're after. Third year, you know, we want to be at least middle and sort of pushing up towards the top four in the fourth year, you know. So he had a progressive way of getting there and that was quite reassuring from a coaching perspective. You know, it showed a little bit of confidence in him, yeah, yeah. So that was, yeah, that was. I think he also was realistic with the players they had and that sort of stuff as well.

Speaker 2:

What about when, in the World Cup, kieran, when I quite enjoyed it, when you had a big crack at the referees after the wales game, I, um, I did chuckle because it's not something I've seen you do a lot of and when I saw it I was just uh in my head I was like, wow, I can understand why, but was when you look back at that there, do you do you think there was an element of stress that you were under which prompted that? Or do you still stand by the fact that the refs didn't referee very well that particular game?

Speaker 1:

I still stand by what I said. I've got a letter from World Rugby with a I don't know $10,000 or something. €10,000 suspended, fine, or something. What?

Speaker 2:

do you Come on? When's that getting paid?

Speaker 1:

It was a year suspended, so it's gone now. But the funny thing on that is because of extenuating circumstances. Well, the extenuating circumstances was that I was right.

Speaker 2:

So Well, the extenuating circumstances was that I was right.

Speaker 1:

The outcome of that one, that you were right, works through the process, no problem. No, look, I was disappointed for the players. That's what I was really disappointed for and I wasn't. Look, referees have a hard, hard job and I'm not bagging the referees, but the reason I had a crack there is because there was four of them made the same decision and they got the. You know, when I say four of them, they had the referee, the touch judge and the TMO in my view, and you know they got the decision wrong and that was backed up by the replies I got.

Speaker 1:

But anyway, you know, maybe it was a bit of stress because you know, it was a game that we had a real opportunity to win. You know, I don't know, to be fair, you know, I didn't even reflect if it was stress or not or that about it. Because, you know, because I was just pretty angry at the time because, well, yeah, I was, look, would I do it again? I don't know, probably not to that, it was. Just if the referee just made the decision by himself, I would have said okay. But the fact that they all went in, because then the other thing was because they had a lot more deeper consequences than just a misconverted try by us.

Speaker 1:

They should have got a yellow card. And then they went down the other end and we got a yellow card, and then there's another 14 points scored. So yeah, deeper, deeper things, but I have moved on, moved on.

Speaker 2:

Have you moved on from the set-up that Netflix documentary did with you and Sue having glasses of wine walking around the lake? When I was watching that, I haven't laughed as hard just seeing you two Because that was set-up, wasn't it? Like that was a stitch up.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, they all wear, they do those sorts of things Because they do that much performing, because, you know, I think they got every time Barnsley, or I swore I think they put into one program apparently.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think so, but it gave the impression of your coaching that you were the potty mouth coach from the farm right, which isn't the case at all.

Speaker 1:

That's what it's come across as, but you know, they do what they do.

Speaker 2:

Yep, they got to create the drama, which they did very well, right, mate. One question I had, because you're kind of unique in that you actually had a really successful playing career like you as a player highest level and then into coaching. Do you think that's shaped your coaching? Having that high exposure to All Blacks and that sort of stuff as a player, do you think it's helped shape your coaching? Do you think it's helped shape your coaching Because a lot of coaches that haven't played to a high level struggle to actually even get in the door, often to the elite level coaching which you're at Do you think that it's really helped you to play at a high level, then transition into coaching at a high level?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, well, it obviously definitely has, because you're exposed to those good players. But probably what shaped my coaching the most, I think, was coaching my club team when I first started, because I was sort of like a coach and then I finished playing and I took a year away because I knew I'd have to start playing again if I went back to the club. But then you go to the club and they can know they can't even catch a pass, you know. So you're actually coaching, you're coaching technique, you're coaching. You know there's no such thing as you know game plans or stuff like that. You're coaching, you're actually coaching rugby.

Speaker 1:

And that probably was one of my biggest things that shaped the way I coach. And then that also went into, you know, with the teams I've been with, with Canada and Benetton, at the start you know they're not great skilled players, not very skillful, and you know you've got to have an element of skill to be able to play the game. So I think I was shaped more by the players I had to coach than I was by what I already knew. But then, on the other hand, I knew that you had to have skill to be able to coach or to play sorry. So, yeah, I don't know Now you know when you're with better skilled players and that you're more looking at playing a game of chess, I suppose, or whatever you want to call it. So you're more rounded, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and who's someone that's helped shape you From a coaching point of view, karen, is have you got a mentor or someone that you took a lot of Guidance From, in the early days Particularly, or even Even now when you're 20 years down? A pretty elite track, I think you take.

Speaker 1:

You take something From lots of people being. You know you. You know people who are good coaches. You know, in New Zealand there's a lot of good coaches that have never got above club stuff simply because people haven't they don't know the right people to get. You know, we had a guy I used to coach with in Taranaki, a guy called Ra Marco. You know just a he was. He actually coached a couple of years with me with Taranaki as a backs coach. You know one of the best rugby minds out. So you talk to those guys.

Speaker 1:

There's a number of coaches that you just talk to and you respect, because there's also a lot of fly-by-nighter coaches or coaches who have got there on the back of good teams Might have got roles because they're in the right place at the right time, but their team gets them to where they got to. But then, as a coach, you know good coaches and you just talk to everyone and you take something from everyone. I do anyway. Good coaches, and you know you just talk to everyone and you take something from everyone. Well, I do anyway.

Speaker 2:

Did you ever have a policy of what I don't want to be as a coach, like, did you ever go and go? I'm not going to be that guy like in your career.

Speaker 1:

Well, when I first started, look, you evolve. You know I don't think I've ever thought, well, I don't want to be the guy that's bloody screaming at players all the time. You know, I don't want to be that. I've never wanted to be that guy. I think you evolve. You know, when I first started, you know all the coaching was dictatorial. You know you always you do this, you do that. But I think as society's changed and everything like that, you know coaching has had to change as well. So I don't think there's. I've never really sat down and thought, oh, I don't want to be that person. You know, I've probably just been going with the flow a little bit. I suppose I don't know.

Speaker 2:

What do you mean by like? I do know what you mean with. You've been around long enough to have seen coaching and society change. What are you referring to there, specifically around? What elements of coaching has now become redundant compared to 30, 40 years ago, when you were sort of starting up?

Speaker 1:

Oh, when you first start, you know at the club stuff, you know I had to be. You know I was part of the clean-up crew on Sunday. You know you mopped the floor, you served behind the bar. You were a taxi driver on Saturday nights. You were a marriage counsellor, you were all those sorts of things you know now. You know at the level we're things now. You know at the level we're at, they have people who come in and talk about the psychology and we used to just say harden up, mate. You know there's a whole complete. There's a lot of people making a lot of money out of sport now in different fields and I think some of it is probably over-exaggerated. You can't hurt people's feelings. Now You've got to validate. There's more time now spent in one-on-one meetings than there is in coaching on the field. Years ago you used to say you're not playing this week. I'm picking such and such. Now you've got to sit down with them and tell them why and show them why there's a lot more.

Speaker 2:

That's the empathetic side of you, mate. That's probably quite a serious question for um, the cultural shift around that side of things, isn't it like it's? It's the the old approach which is very hard? No, it's very blunt, very. This is the way it is, just get on with it, would you say. That's gone these days?

Speaker 1:

uh, to a certain extent it has. I mean, it depends also what country you're in. If you watch those documentaries around South Africa and Rasi Rasmussen, you wouldn't say it's gone With some of the scenes from that, whether that's just bringing them all in together and making it look as though it's just hard, but yeah, I think that it has. And then you've got in sport today or in rugby anyway. Then you've got the female. There's not only males, it's females, and the female is probably a whole different mindset or thing as well. I've never coached in that field so I don't know, but I know my daughter's managed teams and that and some of the things you know.

Speaker 2:

she said there's a difference between them, obviously a big difference between the male and the female yeah, yeah, and like it kind of feels like the modern coach has to be far more adaptable and have a lot more flex in their coaching around the different, not only genders, but also like different ways of dealing with people, as opposed to the older school way which was just one size fits everybody regardless.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think you're dead right there, and one of the things that I'll probably go by a little bit is that you know family always comes first. If you give players a little bit in some areas, you know family always comes first. If you give players a little bit in some areas, you know, hopefully they repay you with performance, you know, or you know, with helping in the culture, you know, being better versions of themselves, or whatever you want to term it, you know. So you've got to uh, take every individual, I think, as an individual, um, and not, you know, it's not a, not a group dynamic yep, yep.

Speaker 2:

And what about your family? Uh, colt, did you like? You've had a pretty epic series of travels. The kids are obviously bought like. A lot of time in canada. We there for eight years. They went to school, then they're off to do the university in the States because they're there. Then the Italy experience how is reflecting on your coaching experience over the last 20 years? How's it gone for you and the family? Has it been a pretty good journey?

Speaker 1:

Oh, yeah, it's been outstanding. Look you always you can make the most of everything you do. You've done the same. I mean, we left. We originally left New Zealand for three years what it's I don't know 18, 20 years later or something. We still haven't got home. But your priorities change.

Speaker 1:

We went to Canada and our kids were what? Eight, 10, 12, I think it was and we were there for three years. But then they got into a good school and their priorities changed and so they thought, okay, we'll get them through school. So they went through school and now two of them still live in Canada. So, yeah, we made the world a very small place for them because of all the travel and that. But they've had experiences that you know, they I would like to think of shaped them and and uh, very thankful for and and um, you know the. The challenge obviously have been a I don't know someone called me a nomadic coach or something. You know, one that travels all over is that you know you don't see your family a lot sometimes. You know, for example, now we're here and um, I'm here in Japan, we've just started our competition and there's a big Christmas reunion for the family back before my brothers and that having a big reunion this Christmas and all the kids have gone home for it and I'm the only one not there.

Speaker 2:

That's dangerous, isn't it? That's when the 7-Eleven Karen Bears get absolutely plundered in the hotel room, don't they? Sitting by yourself in the bath?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, no, so it shaped me big time, you know, and you wouldn't trade it for quids, you know, it's been great.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think that statement you just said you made the world a very small place for the kids. I think that's a lovely statement, because I know a lot of people really, um to change as much as you have it's it's not a normally done thing, and to traipse your kids around the world, um, following what you love, is awesome because it it just gives them such a you know, a great outlook on what they can and can't do in the world. I think it's lovely, man. So it's super cool, super cool.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think, as you know, it exposes them to different people too. They've got friends all over the world now, so it's great for them.

Speaker 2:

Right, kieran, I've got two more questions for you and I'll let you get back to the amazing dinners you guys have at those hotels. The buffet dinners are just phenomenal, aren't they? The day before games? Yeah, they're good. They're good, mate. The first one is just for you. As you've progressed over your career, has your definition of success changed, like? I think we all know what publicly success looks like, but is there anything privately which has changed for you over the years around how you define success?

Speaker 1:

I don't know whether it's changed much, but it has. Success for me is seeing people achieve things they probably didn't think they could. Like I said earlier on, you know, I've always sort of been involved in teams that have been lower on points tables. And to see supporters the smile on supporters' faces, sometimes because of the performance of the team, that's a big one for me, you know. And to see the smiles and the joys on the faces of the players when they succeed, when perhaps they weren't expected to succeed, that's massive success for me. Sometimes the scoreboard doesn't reflect the right result, but the performance of the players certainly does. And when you see people happy and smiling because of what they've achieved, like I say, it might not be the win, but that's been successful for me. Love it.

Speaker 2:

Love it. And lastly, kieran, this is an interesting question which I haven't preempted you on, so you're going to have to roll off the cuff here. What is? This is a bit of background. A mate of mine this morning said ask Kieran this because I'd love to know it. So this is where you're rolling. What's one belief you have around coaching that most people would disagree with? I thought it was a really interesting question and that just like because I think all coaches have their sort of way of doing things and we don't often get to sort of put something out there which may be a little bit controversial, so I thought it was a cool concept to just think about. You know that one belief you have around coaching that most people would disagree with. Can you think of anything off the top of your head?

Speaker 1:

Well, I want to run the ball from every place on the field.

Speaker 2:

No kicks a goal, no kicks a touch, just run the thing.

Speaker 1:

Run the thing and ban box kicking.

Speaker 2:

Well, depending which country you go to, you would either find great support for no box kicking or horror at the thought of it.

Speaker 1:

Oh, and you can also depower all this. I'm thinking of the team I've got now. You see, you depower the scrum with no mauling. If you carry the ball, you're only allowed to go one metre. What in the carry? When you're carrying it In the carry? Because these big guys they get six or seven metres, whereas we only get half a metre without carrying it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, You've got to bring it all to equilibrium. Yeah, that's right. If you go more than a metre, you get penalised and that's where you have amazing gold.

Speaker 1:

Kicker to to saw you out. Yeah, now look, um, probably, um, yeah, look, I'd love to run the ball from everywhere you know. Um, but, um, yeah, you, you can't do that in today's game the stats don't allow it, do they?

Speaker 2:

no, no right, well, karen, hey, we'll call it a day here. I appreciate you've got um a big game tomorrow and I really appreciate and thank you for the time. It's always been a. It's a pleasure having coached with you for a little while in canada and also being around you just down the road in japan. So, um, thanks for the time. It's a pleasure and I look forward to watching the Honda heat with pleasure this season and fingers crossed that you go well and do more than just survive.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, cheers Ben Thanks. Anytime, mate Enjoyed it.

Speaker 2:

Here's the final thought I have from my chat with Kieran Crowley. I actually loved it how Kieran talked about all his travels. Through his international coaching has made the world a smaller place for his kids. I think it's really important that when you make the world a smaller place, you're actually making it a place that's never to be feared. You know the way around it, this familiarity. You know the way it works, you trust and believe in it and you're enthusiastic about the opportunities within it, and for me so it is too, with our rugby teams, or, in fact, any teams. A good culture is one where no one gets lost in it, so go on and make your teams a metaphorical small place. See you next time.