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Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Scott Lawrence: Coaching Culture and Vision in USA Rugby
Questions? Text Ben Herring direct.
Scott Lawrence, a pivotal figure in USA Rugby, joins us for an enlightening conversation that straddles the line between sport and data science. Drawing from his humble beginnings in the Midwest to his role as head coach and general manager, Scott shares the unique influences that have shaped his leadership style. He underscores the importance of both strategic thinking and community values, using his experiences from Life University and his time in the UK as a backdrop. We explore how Scott has blended his background in computational mathematics with his passion for rugby to craft a successful program that thrives on both "meat heads" and "egg heads."
Listeners will uncover the art of aligning performance objectives within both sports and business contexts. We delve into the necessity of setting high-level goals and fostering early successes to cultivate buy-in and momentum. As Scott juggles the dual roles of head coach and general manager, he shares strategies for transitioning from transactional tasks to transformational leadership. With anecdotes from both the sports and tech worlds, we highlight the significance of creating a cohesive team culture where everyone works towards common objectives.
Finally, we turn our gaze towards the future of USA Rugby. Scott discusses the inspiring vision that guides the team, drawing parallels to NASA's iconic missions and the shared identity they foster. The conversation touches on initiatives like Eagle 365, which emphasize year-round commitment and the pairing of players with coaches to enhance team unity. By embodying the values they wish to promote, leaders like Scott set a positive tone for what's ahead. Join us as we explore how vision, culture, and leadership can propel USA Rugby towards ambitious milestones, including the aspiration of reaching a World Cup quarterfinal by 2031.
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A good team is like cooking a really great breakfast, in that you need meat heads and you need egg heads. You know, if you think about a really talented athlete and a PhD in data science, they're more alike than than what you would imagine they are, data science. They're more alike than what you would imagine they are. And then I think there are times when you've been in a role for a while and maybe you need to move from being very transactional to more transformational. It was about me finding the habits and then showing him that he has a good day when he follows his habits. And they walk out of the tunnel and they look up and it says USA versus whoever. World Cup quarterfinal.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I am Ben Herring and I have been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. And I have been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's episode is with Scott Lawrence, head coach and general manager of the USA rugby team, from his time at Life University to Atlanta MLR team and a thriving tech background. Success has followed Scott every step of the way. He's known for having one of the sharpest minds in the game, balanced by humility and a relentless work ethic. And how does he combine his head coaching and general managing with such precision? Let's find out, scott. What it is is where Roller made us.
Speaker 2:This podcast is about culture and leadership stuff rather than X's and O's of rugby, and it's mainly because I just I love this stuff and I really enjoy getting to know what other people think about this stuff and how they do it, and I love the thought of you because of our conversations we had around a lot of that theming stuff and it really got me.
Speaker 2:It always gets me thinking about what other people are doing with their stories and their culture and their environment and I wanted to help relay that to people around the rugby scene because it's not something you get taught, it's not in those coaching clinics, don't really delve into this stuff. So the best way that I've found to actually get an understanding of how to grow your culture is to hear other people's stories. What they've done, the trials and tribulations. All of that stuff done through people's personal account is a great way to sort of steal ideas and go, oh, that's a good idea, and things like that. So that's the purpose of this podcast, mate. Firstly, I guess what I'd love to just hear a little bit about from you is just a little bit of your background and how your backgrounds shaped you and then, consequently, you have shaped your cultures and what do they look like.
Speaker 1:I don't even know if I can really describe myself. That's pretty tough.
Speaker 2:Maybe I'll ask your wife and that'll be a better gauge of what's going on.
Speaker 1:No, I think when we started at the beginning. You know I came from the Midwestern United States, which is a place that's known for humility and hard work and good people that help your neighbor. And you know you come with a real service mindset and you know generally good people that help your neighbor. And you know you come with a real service mindset and you know generally good people that support each other, live off each other. I always tell people, you know, stories. You know you might trade carrots from your garden for somebody who'll take your recycling to the recycling center 20 miles away, and somebody will plow your driveway if you take care of their dog for the weekend. And you know that's kind of, that's kind of how, how I grew up. So yeah, so that that probably started. You know my just my general thinking about how we approach things and and uh, and then, you know, went into um, went into university, studied mathematics, computational mathematics, major, and then that sounds heavy, mate.
Speaker 2:That sounds really heavy computational mathematics. There's a niche there isn't there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. No, it was definitely. I was one of the nerds in the nerdery, that's for sure, for a few years.
Speaker 2:Well, not to critique your nerdiness, but I don't know if the nerdery is a grammatically correct statement, Scott.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's math, not English. No, it's good. I went to school there. I got in that's when I got, you know, fell in love with the sport and started rugby there, and and and then, soon after graduating I, you know, was in the professional world. I went to the consulting world and technology consulting, and and decided I was going to take some time off and go play for a year abroad. And that's when I heard about a place where I could earn a few bucks to play in England. But I also did consulting. So I transferred and lived and worked and played in the UK, and that was great, worked and played in the UK and and uh, and, and that was great.
Speaker 1:And then we came back to uh, I came back to Atlanta, uh, to uh to marry my wife and and uh, that was uh, you know she, she moved from the Midwest down to the South while I was gone and so I chased her down here and and uh, we came back and kind of fell into a, a program called life university that uh actually lost, you know, lost its rugby program. My rugby program was on its rope, it was on the ropes and, um, we looked around and said we need a coach and I said, well, I'll do it and uh, and that kind of started the coaching journey. You know I was there for was there for 13 years. Uh, you know, really, you know just really great people there built a, we built a wonderful program. That's now a good collegiate program and club program there and scott did.
Speaker 2:Were you? Were you injured? Were you injured just to stop playing? Or was it just time, or was coaching calling in that regard?
Speaker 1:uh, I was, you know, I was player coaching, which is, you know so I played for four years while I coached and and worked, and you know so, um, so that's when I started to learn how to really, um, have organizational scale. You know they were. It was kind of weird, you know, it's a bit strange. There was coaches that were working there. I was playing, I was coaching, I was working another job and I actually stepped away from the technology industry and went to the university and said, hey, I'd really like to ramp up this program, and so they hired me there full time. I also started working for USA Rugby in a high performance regional manager way. So I did that for about a year until the program was built to a point where I needed somebody that could take it and take it the last mile.
Speaker 1:And there was a guy by the name of Dan Payne that was a friend of mine. He became the CEO of USA Rugby later on, but Dan went to life and then he just, you know, he took it and ran with it and so then, you know, from there I just I jumped into rep, play and coached U20s, kind of coached at the Lofa University, and then, until I got the call from a local businessman and he said I need a partner in this MLR franchise that we're going to call it Rugby ATL. And so I jumped into that and became kind of part owner, general manager, organizational scale. I jumped into that and became kind of part owner, general manager. I took and uh, organizational scale.
Speaker 1:Yeah, dish, dishwasher and um, and really just had a lot of fun. You know, from the ground up, literally, coffee shop on a napkin, to building a facility and you know, taking the team in two years to, uh, to a cup final. It was, um, the team in two years to a cup final. It was just a wonderful journey. So, yeah, and then that's kind of that's led me here.
Speaker 2:To the USA head coach slash GM role. So your organizational scale, scott, seems to continue with you everywhere you go. You're not just doing the one thing, you're doing multiple roles. At home, you cook the dinners and then you also do the washing up. That's expectations in your household, correct, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 2:Oh, mate, what a place to be in, what a place to be in Righto mate. Well, I think just the other bit which you didn't talk about, which we'll get to later, but just you were working in a tech industry whilst you were doing the bulk of all of those roles right for Oracle, which I think sometimes is. I think you play down how cool that role was. You were essentially in charge of 150 or so different facets of that organization. Big role, lots of responsibilities, on top of all the stuff you're doing with rugby. That's right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it was a great team and so many parallels, great people. You know, if you think about a really talented athlete and a PhD in data science, they're more alike than what you would imagine they are.
Speaker 2:Is that right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, just in terms of very talented, good at what they do. You know you'll be amazed that you know there's rugby environments can be aggressive environments, of course they know you'll. You'll be amazed that you know there's the rugby environments can be aggressive environments. Of course they can also be collaborative. But you'd be in, you'd be amazed at the parallels.
Speaker 1:And and I kind of found this sweet spot in leading a, you know, kind of hardcore engineering product management strategy within a business to sports teams, in that you can take what we call the daily training environment, which is wrapping everything around a player, and you can parallel that to what I call the DWE, which is the daily work environment, and you can actually work with.
Speaker 1:You can actually work with. You know it matters when you start to go to people and say how can I remove friction from your life and I know this sounds simple but it makes sense in the rugby world Can I get you a better chair? Is the monitor big enough at your desk? What can I do to get you training and development? Are you getting what you need from our development program and kind of empowering the team to come up with themes and values and all the things that. So they're very relatable. And so I kind of slipped into this sweet spot of really just you know, learning about how to create high performance teams of highly talented people and focusing on alignment more than you know, more than being the the expert, being the person who listens for alignment, pushes alignment and rewards it across the board.
Speaker 2:Mate, that's a powerful statement Listens for alignment and pushes for it and rewards it. I mean, that's a one, two, three right there, scott, I reckon, but I think that's important, just if we digress on this for just a dash, like, uh, the fact that you put listens for alignment before anything else, I think is a really interesting concept which I don't hear a lot of. Do you think that's, the listening aspect is a really important first step in in, in dwe's, and and and DWA's.
Speaker 1:I, I think it is, I think there's, there's depends on the timing in which you come into the role. So there are times when you come into a new organization for example, you know, I came into a leadership role and somebody was transitioning out that was a very big listening time and you know, so I spent, spent a while, um, listening. You can't go for too long because at some point people need leadership and they want to hear from you what's next. So I, I, I'd really kind of equivalent it to um mining for gems, so to speak. Right, like you, you really start.
Speaker 1:You start on the surface of hey, here's a, here's a big, big rock that I think we can all tackle and we can all get behind. And usually I found you needed to find that within the first kind of 30 days and say, okay, I've heard this a lot. Um, let's, let's recognize this is something that we can, we can get after it. So you kind of find that sweet spot of it's a big rock, but it's, if I just change a couple of things, it's easy to move. So I can show early success to to get buy-in, uh with the broader team and uh, and then you start, you know, then you start digging uh from there, um, yeah, and, uh and, and just keep kind of layering it in.
Speaker 1:So so I think I think that's a that's a huge part of it is, if is the timing of it, um, you know, and then, and then I think there are times when you've been in a role for a while and maybe you need to move from being very transactional to more transformational, which which is what I'm doing with the rugby program here, our men's 15s. We've said 2025 is about being transformational. We've been transactional. We play games, we go to tournaments, we pick players right.
Speaker 2:Yes, so that's when you refer to transactional in a rugby setting, you're talking about the nuts and bolts, the game itself, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like you know you have nine test matches a year and we're going to go play and we need to pick the guys by this and we need to have. You know, we need to do all these things. To go play nine test matches, we need this amount of money, et cetera, and you're just kind of living from year to year etc. And you're just kind of living from year to year. But when you're transformational you say what are the pillars, what are the cross-cutting themes and things that we need to be doing to transform the way that we play and the way that the future teams are going to play. And for me that was huge.
Speaker 1:And so at that point in the beginning part of the year it was kind of listening for the performance objectives from everybody within this organization came out and said here are the three main performance objectives for us for this year. They're very high level and then drove down into the individual pathways groups to the coaches, you know, and the professional team and said let's make sure we got alignment for what your objectives are inside of your point to the big objectives that we've set. And so that's kind of how the process, the cycle, goes, so to speak. And then you put governance in place, and then you have to have governance in place to circle back. That's what we do we coach, we review, review the review.
Speaker 2:How do you step between those roles? Because you're a heat coach and GM. How do you step between those roles Because you're a head coach and GM? So the transactional role I would suggest would be most coaches around the world would be locked in that transactional space about. We've got X amount of gaps this year. We want to do well every time rah, rah, rah. So how do you get that shift from? Yeah, I know that stuff's there, but how, like what? You're going into 2025, you're now going into transformational time. How do you shift your head coaching role to your GM role, to those other things? How do you do that?
Speaker 1:well, yeah, I think maybe I've had. I've been really lucky in that I had these roles in the technology industry where I might be sitting in a business strategy or a conversation one day and the next day be in a very deep technical conversation with a software developer, and so you end up having some habits around. Obviously you build some mental models around how you could do that and then for me it's about this intentional work blocks and we think like the wtp is just for sport, but it's kind of you know, my life is a seven day repeating wtTP.
Speaker 2:I'm loving all these letters, Scott. They're just WTPs, DWEs. I'm trying to write them all down so they make points on what they all mean. It's outstanding.
Speaker 1:Well, the WTP is Weekly Tactical Periodization. That's the way you structure your week. You've got a fast day and you've your week and you know you got a fast day and you got a rest day and you got a contact day, right? Yep, exactly so, you know, right. So that's the way I live my life. I have an alignment day, you know, where we talk about across the pillars and we focus on that, and you know we finish the day and with action and and debrief the day and the day and try to close that out.
Speaker 2:So you actually have days where you say this is my action day. You actually have whole days you set out and say this is what I'm doing, this is my tone of my being. Today is X, then tomorrow will be the flip and Y, and then I'll have a merger day where I'll be half X, half Y, half Z, something like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So what I might do is, on a Monday I'll have a specific day which is all about my one-on-ones across the organization with the teams and then, if I can wrap it up that day, great. If not, then I set it on and before 10 10 am on Tuesday, I make sure that I close out any actions that I had as a result of that.
Speaker 2:So your policy is one-on-ones on Mondays and then, by 10 o'clock Tuesday, you reflect overnight and come back and you tidy up any outstanding loose threads and then you bin that aspect. Right Now we're on to Tuesday, and then you spin that aspect.
Speaker 1:right now we're on to tuesday, which is a different mindset. Yep, yeah, yeah, exactly, and then. And then you move into into what tuesday is and and you go from there and you know the beauty of international rugby is is when you're in camp, you're in camp, right, and so when you're out of camp, your time time is spent at least for me is built on preparing for, but also building the processes and enabling the other folks in the organization to be able to do their role. When I'm gone for five weeks and do it with one hour of interaction with me during those weeks, with me during those weeks, you know, and and so that's where the one-on-ones are so critical because they just they become so rich over time. They start with a check-in and how you are, you know to, you know solving business problems or performance problems in real time, and in you, in you flex between supporting the person and being there for them, to having one-on-ones that are focused on performance review but also one-on-ones that are focused on execution, and I think that's important.
Speaker 2:I think it's probably a missed thought process around. Your one-on-ones are there for the times you're not there. I like that statement which you referred to, that like when you're having those one-on-ones you're very present and you're all about then. But the bigger picture aspect to it, as I understand you talking about, is when you're not there. In that time that you were there you've given them some of the tools and the love and support and that side of things. So when you're not there they're better equipped to deal and know what they're supposed to be doing. Yeah, that's a lovely flip because often the transactional nature of coaches and certainly at a professional level, your Monday is your one-on-one, but sometimes it's nothing more than that then and there. But if you're thinking bigger picture for that transformational piece, you're actually putting in stuff which is going to make them better people right and better athletes and better tech and engineers and all that stuff, love it mate.
Speaker 2:Love it. That's a cool, slight, slight twist. I love it. Now, scott, with these experiences that you've had, it's wonderful. You have a very different outlook compared to most traditional rugby coaches, who probably don't have the business background that you have. How, then, would you define culture? Would you define culture? Sometimes it's a word that's loosely said and said often, but we don't always spend the time to actually sort of define its meaning. From your background, with your tech and engineering stuff and your rugby and your growing, the ground up builds on the life program, on the U20s, on the ATLs how would you define it?
Speaker 1:it's, uh, it's. It's a tough question. I actually um, I don't have, uh, I don't have triggers. I I tend to study stoicism, but culture, trigger word for me, I think, and in what way and what you?
Speaker 2:mean, it just rolls you up or what. What about it?
Speaker 1:is the trigger I, it's just um, it's just kind of like well, what do you, what do you really mean there? You know, and and I think that's that's the heart of your question is, what do you mean? Culture? And you know, I think there's, I think there's. If you want to define it, it's, you know.
Speaker 1:First of all, it starts with who, who am I, what is my identity in this and what space do I fill in this? And you know, you have to live whatever you want to be within your organization. It's very tough but you got to live it. You know, people are very good at seeing when you don't act in alignment with the principles and the values that are stated and public in your organization. So I think you know, first and foremost, I think it starts there, I think it's. Then you know, if you think about Daniel Kim's model around how he says if you get the big rocks right, if you get your values, if you get your strategy, if you get your communication right, if you get your communication right and you get your leadership right, then the one-off actions either align or don't align to that and you're able to tell straight away whether they align or they don't. And that, for me, defines the.
Speaker 1:I refer to it more as the identity of the organization. I refer to it more as the identity of the organization. And when I talk to players in the United States, we talk about being an internationally capped player is not something you just do. It's who you are. It needs to be an identity. You need to change the way you think about your life to be aligned with achieving that goal. Now that will run against popular opinion because you'll say well, you know, if you make a mistake in sport is your identity shot. That's not what we mean. We're not, we're not attacking anybody's mental health there. What you're saying is is what we? What we're saying is is you need to live, uh, live the process, so to speak, and that's why I call it kind of the identity of the organization. It's the things that you, you know. If you walk in, it's very clear what you hear, what, what do you see, what does it sound like, what does it feel like? That is the identity. I guess you could call that culture as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love it because you often hear people talk about the process over outcome, that chestnut which is repeated ad nauseum at times. But that concept of live the process is actually refreshing, like live the process every day, not something you do, it's, it's who you are, which I think. You're right, scott, I reckon a lot of people, particularly high-end rugby coaches, might might question that. In regard to the being able to switch on, switch off, however, you make the point that it is that process, like it's a high-performance process piece, isn't it? If you want to be fantastic, that's how it has to be.
Speaker 1:I think so. I mean, if you think about the roots of cognitive behavioral therapy and I had a son who had some challenges and we went through it with him At the end of the day, what I realized with my son was it wasn't about me correcting him as his father. It was about me finding the habits and then showing him that he has a good day when he follows his habits, when he eats well, when he sleeps well, when he does his, when he, when he cleans his room. You know, when he does those things, he is then at his best and and you know, and that's you know kind of the. The heart of it is is what are those habits? And that's what I'm really after is, is you know kind of the behaviors. And in living those, and you know, a behavior can be switch off. I'm at my best when I switch off every thursday from 10 to 2, right?
Speaker 2:that is is that in? Is that in the weekly schedule score thursday's 10 till 2 is no score? Switch down time. We're watching squid game on netflix there's.
Speaker 1:There's definitely some what I call digital sabbaths, where you know there's some no, no electronics. You know that's in the week, but, but, um, but, I, I think, I think that's the point. It's's like, you know, you live the process.
Speaker 2:Oh man, I absolutely love it, mate.
Speaker 2:I think it's refreshing to hear, and a lot of the stuff is told numerous times in sort of self-help books and business stuff, but it's not always equated to rugby and sport in general. I think there's a belief that top athletes sort of have that, but I would argue that most don't. They've got where they are because they just love the game and they get good at it. And then if you can double down on that natural love and enjoyment of the game and the fact that they're so into it with complementing habits which will supersize them, is a cool concept and one that we probably miss. But some of those habits are not habits necessarily which are rugby-related habits, they're just good life habits, correct, correct, correct. So in that regard, you're not talking about sort of the X's and O's specifically of rugby, but it's specifically of being a better person and yourself, like the stuff that you're doing with your block in your week is essentially what any aspiring high performance athlete should be doing for their life in order to maximize them, right, yeah?
Speaker 1:Um, you know, what's what you do for for a living is is, you know, could be picking up a ball, or it could be, you know, talking into this laptop right now.
Speaker 2:Um, but you know, or doing all the numbers in behind the laptop which make it work exactly, scott at the nerdery.
Speaker 1:Exactly, absolutely, and but. But the concepts are. Concepts are the same, right, when we're, when we're on, what we're doing, whether you love your work, that you do, that's you know, that's your purpose, it doesn't matter. You want to be on and you want to be at your best when you're doing that, that's when you really truly enjoy it. And so the habits are immutable, so to speak.
Speaker 2:I love it.
Speaker 2:Now, mate, one habit which I really enjoyed over the past couple of years is regular check-ins with yourself over this just to chew the fat on themes and stories, and I really loved when you got the job the American Head Coach job well-deserved, and you don't have to look very far around the country to know that it's really well-received, like you're the guy that should be.
Speaker 2:I think it's really important too that, just to note, since 1976 there's been 17 head coaches of the USA and only five have been American, and that's something which I think is really cool about yourself is not only have you played for the team, you're from here, you've made your own track in this regard and been really successful along the way, and then to get rewarded, uh, with the top job is fantastic for an organizational piece, but it's it is well deserved. But also, knowing you, I know how passionate you are about american rugby in general and I loved some what you were doing with the pride in the team and a lot of your theming and your environmental stuff and some of the processes that you talked about is about creating stories and themes for the team, the boys, to hook onto, to share, which is not secret to the team about some of the themings and imagery which you're trying to generate more than just a bit of rugby players, but you're trying to grow the love of the American rugby team.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we started with an aspiration, really, which turned into a vision, which then turned into a plan which was to be know, to be in a quarterfinal at home in 2031 and the world cup, and when we started to peel that apart and look at the stages in which we needed to move through to to, to have a chance at doing that, really resonated with the space program uh, with us, and and so you know, in 1962, jfk gave a speech in Rice University and said we were going to go to the moon and you know, we're going to go to the moon within this decade. Right, we do this and the other things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, lava Right.
Speaker 1:So he said we're going to do that, and that was in 1962 and 1969, we put the first man on the moon. Now that was seven years, seven years from 2024 when we came up with this to 2031. So that was the first parallel, and then the stars were aligning, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:From the outset, mate parallel, and and then the stars were aligning yeah, exactly, and I, from the outside, mate. Well, I think the main thing that I think the main thing that we we really tapped into is, uh, is is around the role of the current eagle and their job to inspire the generation that will play in that World Cup. Some of them that are now coming in are young enough that they will play in that, but the group that was senior. They were preparing for 2023 World Cup. They weren't planning on seeing a 2027. They weren't planning on seeing a 2027. And we just had them think about and visualize standing in the tunnel of a SoFi stadium in LA before a World Cup quarterfinal, with their families and their coaches and their friends, and the smoke and the flames. And they walk out of the tunnel and they look up and it says usa versus whoever world cup quarterfinal. And I said man, isn't you know, is that a vision you want? And they and of course, they say yes, man, I'd love that. And I say, if you could give that to somebody else, would you give that gift? And if you are willing to give that gift? Because I tell them I am you rattled off the number of coaches that have been here. Right, my chances of me being here for 2031 are whatever percentage rugby coaches get in their jobs.
Speaker 1:But for me, it was about establishing what they were going to do now and how hard they were going to work for each other and how they were going to present an example to the rest of our country around what it means. And when we talk about an astronaut, an astronaut were the best of what America could produce. They were athletes, they were physicists, they were mathematicians, they were incredible people, the very first astronauts. And the USA Eagles win-loss record, whatever aside are the best of what America can produce in our sport, whatever aside are the best of what America can produce in our sport. And so when I talk about you know, I tie back to the identity. That's the identity of what we call Eagle 365, which is you are an Eagle 365 days a year and that is that is who, that is what you do, that is who you are. And then we shape the behaviors around that. And when I say we, that means the senior player, shape that, they define that, they share that within the team.
Speaker 2:Uh, and, and I think, I think that is important for us, scott, are you just there to like you said earlier, there to uh, so that you're there to push that alignment, that consistency, and then reward it? That's your job on that. But once you have listened and implemented, then it's just to keep pushing, keep pushing and keep rewarding.
Speaker 1:When, when there's behaviors that you wanted to see are happening, reward that yeah, yeah and and and, as you know, take the time to review, right. I mean we call it a one in 60. So one in 60 means, if you know it's a piloting term around staying on course. It's when you, you know one degree off, you know you'll be, you know, 60 monocle miles off course. So we talk about one in 60. So it's about, like, like, coming back and checking are we headed in the right direction? And then are we aligned to that and so, because the course will change, you kind of you put these things in place and the team starts to grow, and then you go we're ready to go to the next level, we can do more, and then, so you know. So then it's about redefining and getting with your team leadership around. What is that more and what does that look like? And then I know this is completely off the wall. I don't know if it's if it's just crazy or if it really worked, but we paired up players with members of our coaching and operational staff and we had them go through and say you know the operational staff, sit down with them and talk about your journey. You know, from the time you get your notification of invite to getting your plane ticket, to getting your kit, to going to the game. Like I want you to hear from each other what the desired experience is from the player, and then the player understanding what the operational challenge is.
Speaker 1:All that goes into making that work, and that is completely different than any rugby methodology. They say you know, keep the player's box small, don't let them. But it's a short period of time, it's you know, it's a, it's a two-day thing and we drill in and then what happens is, is what you have this person that's in the leadership group. Inevitably you're moving 50 people around the world. Something goes wrong, inevitably right, and that person goes uh guys, no problem, look, look, let's just do this, let's just roll with this. These things happen. I know why. You know, and now you don't have this, like you know, you don't have players making up their own stories around why. You know why your luggage is taking two hours to check in instead of one, right, so it's really yeah to check in instead of one right, so it's really well.
Speaker 2:I just like I remember watching the when Elon Musk was doing the space rocket tests, when they were failing, and one of the things that struck me when I saw some of those documentaries was how committed every single operational staff person throughout that entire organization was to achieving the mission of these self-returning rockets. And when that didn't work, the whole organization was down, like like the. I remember seeing a scene where there was like people who presumably were just sort of uh, facility maintenance people, but they were so invested they were all connected, they were aligned to this mission that they were on, that they cared, and you knew that just looking at those scenes that this is one connected thing and there's no surprise that when it did fail, how quickly they were able to right, adjust, make the fixes, move on, be better, and it just seemed like everyone went like that and that sounds like kind of the thing that you're trying to achieve with your wider group in this operationals mixing with the players. Does that be bang on?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think so. I mean I think it goes across operational and other functions. But I think the thing is what we call kind of plus one mindset Today. It can either be plus one or minus one. Love it For a year, right. And that plus one mindset is just around working to problem solve. When you engage not every player but your leadership group in the operations of the team, at least have an understanding they are allies in solving the problem when you created the story, like around the, the astronauts, and it just fitted so well, right, did you?
Speaker 2:you mentioned that you didn't. You don't have to get everyone on board, you just have to get the leadership crew right. So did you have resistance to it? Or do you have people that went? Or, on the whole, was it just a seamless? People saw it, loved it, went, went, yeah, and just bought in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it probably took a couple weeks, because people are like what the heck is this? Right, there's always a bit of that, I think. When we described the vision for the team, then they could relate it to the mission, so to speak. And then, as we got deeper into it and we started to assign a mission badge to a game and giving somebody a badge for you know, if they were in the buildup that they prepared, every staff member, every player receives a mission badge, a recognition of their contribution to the game Do you start to do those things? And then they start to go okay, that's interesting. And then you just kind of keep layering it in, so you talk about the actual mission. What is the mission? What are they trying to achieve in mercury in this mission? What you know how? And so you just you got to keep kind of just you know they, good, religion is repetition, and so you just kind of keep repeating the message good.
Speaker 2:Religion is repetition. That's awesome, I think. Also, scott, I think it's important just to uh recount that just knowing you and when you're talking about that, astronauts were the best of the, the perfect mix. I actually reckon that's. That's very similar to you in itself. You've. You're a very intelligent man, excellent rugby coach. You've. You're you've got all those other facets to your life.
Speaker 2:You live your values, like you are the first one that you talk about those habits and the organization of your habits. I think that's you. So I think when you sell or get up and speak about, this is the thing I think, because you are a living endorsement of the things you're preaching. I think when you get up and say it, people go yeah, okay, and I think that's probably the the first step in it has been a good leader and the culture you want that you've got to live. You live the values which you're then going to be in spousing on.
Speaker 2:On the rest, and if you do that, any story you tell people know well scott's saying this. I know he's done all the work in the background. He's lived all this stuff I'm in and that's how it rolls and there's no wavering when people think about yourself and then the stories you then say afterwards. So, as any coach to live at first, and if you're not those things, probably be a little bit tentative around saying for everyone to be those things. If you're not quite those, maybe mold your story to be something slightly else yeah, I, I think so.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think, if you get to become a leader as a coach, it's you know, it's not in every case, but in most cases you're, you've gotten there in some way and you're passionate about something, um, or a number of things, and that's why you got into coaching.
Speaker 1:And so I think it's important that the values or the stories or the themes that you tell genuinely get you excited.
Speaker 1:And if they don't get you excited, get yourself excited.
Speaker 1:And what I mean by that is like this year, 2025 is world cup qualification, and I share with the players that every morning, I wake up for two minutes and I visualize how happy they're going to be and me standing back and looking at this team that accomplished world cup qualification when they did in 2023, and I can feel the cardboard from the sign in my hands and see the smiles on their faces. And that's what you know, and that's what gets me up in the morning, that's what fires me up, and I think you know that's what I mean by if you don't believe it, you know, find yourself, create a vision for yourself, see, see your team accomplishing it, see yourself being a part of it, and you know, and uh, and then live it love it and and just out of interest, and I think I know the answer here but you, you've mapped out all the missions from now, all the way till 30, 30, uh, 20, 31, in terms of each moon landing, or just the next couple of seasons.
Speaker 2:What have you got there?
Speaker 1:we just we, we did, um, we did it in stages. So there was, you know, three projects there was mercury, there was gemini and then there was apollo, which ultimately went to the moon. So mercury was my first year with the team and, uh, mercury was about right vehicles, right people, uh, right infrastructure, and. And so we did that, we got those things in place. And and then at the eagles level, mercury was about right vehicles, right people, right infrastructure, and so we did that, we got those things in place. And then at the Eagles level, we tied that to respect and reputation for ourselves in the Eagles and the team and the environment. And now we're into Gemini.
Speaker 1:So if you think about Mercury, you know it was really relatable to that group because we said the Mercury astronauts, they didn't go to the moon, they did all the work, set it up for the Apollo astronauts to go, and you know what was their goal? Their goal was to get into space and it was to go a little higher, a little faster and orbit more times around the earth. So it was about getting into zero gravity. So we talk about our game and the way we react is zero G, it's free, you know. And how do you get there. How do you get there? You got to. You have to fight, right. You have to fight the negativity of gravity that pulls you down. You have to fight towards this vision of someday we're going to go to the moon, but first I'm just going to get up and go a little higher, a little faster, and be in zero gravity.
Speaker 1:So that was the first set of missions. And then, as you look at the space program and you look at Gemini, now they were starting to do cool stuff in space so they could get there, and now they were starting to assemble pieces. And how are we going to get the vehicles together that are going to take us there? Again, still not going to the moon, but it was about bringing the big pieces together. So that's our focus for the next three years is being very intentional with our performance objectives and how we use our portfolio spending and investment into players and infrastructure to make sure that, um, we start to put the pieces together. Uh, that ultimately involves a 2027 world cup appearance and a good showing there, love it now I I'm feeling the excitement just listening to you.
Speaker 2:I'm getting, I'm getting wrapped up, I want to be part of. But is there a stress side to the stuff as well? Like as a coach, the excitement's always there. But do you get any sort of stresses from you in your roles not just the head coaching role, but do you get what stresses pop up for you and how do you deal with those? Because it's not all fun times. You've got to have some bad weather as well. What aspects of your leadership causes that stress and how do you deal with it?
Speaker 1:I think the biggest thing, particularly on the international stage, when you're transforming a team, so you've got this transitionary period of players rolling out is that in your head, the process, regardless of wins and losses, is happening or it's not happening. And you're trying to make it happen, right, but you're seeing the incremental steps, right, you're seeing the incremental steps and you understand the plan, but you've got as with any coach, right, you've got a boss that says so, it doesn't matter, you lost the test match and you go but but but no, it doesn't matter, right, you lost the test match. So I think I wouldn't say it's a stress. I think it's a reality for me.
Speaker 1:I tend to try to look at things neutrally, for what they really are, and say this may get cut short, what I'm trying to achieve and what the team's trying to achieve, and I don't want it to get cut short, not because of me. You know I'm retired from technology. I'm, I'm okay for for the rest of my life, you know. I think it's more for the players and the journey that they're on. It's that you know, if this ends, it's it's going to be, it's going to be negative for the players and the coaches that are, that are bought into this thing and that are going forward. So I think you know the stress of the week and the performance you know. You look at the Eagles this year we used 47 players in nine test matches, you know, and that's a big number for us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so the results.
Speaker 2:Do you think that some of that, like when you're weathering because all coaches weather this where external parties come in who are emotional, they watch the game, they want to see a win and if they don't see a win they get emotional and there's the kickback and they're not seeing. Like? You talked about those incremental improvements, which is what most transformational coaches are looking for. So how have you been able to upward manage those people I'd imagine in your business career that's been a big part as well that that upward manage, uh, those people at that level. And and what? What advice would you give coaches around how they can be better at selling that story to those emotional types on the sideline?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a really good question. I mean, I think you know we had a change in leadership within the governing body. You know when I came in, so you know it's kind of one getting the time and the space to take all of what we've said in the last hour down to a two-minute conversation. This is moonshot. This is the vision, these are the stages to it, this is what to expect, and this is what to expect in the next week and this is what to expect in the six is what to expect in the next week and this is what to expect in the six months and to expect in the next year from me, and and and then being really good about circling back and said and saying, hey look, you know, we're at the end of the six months, this is what we, this is what was achieved, this was achieved and this is the plan going forward.
Speaker 1:So I think you know when, just like players, coaches, administrators, when they get under pressure, you can go in and try and solve it yourself.
Speaker 1:You could think about it a little bit too much and and uh and ruminate on it, and I think the important thing is to say is just that constant stream of communication, good or bad, whatever comes back on the other side of it, as long as you're looking at it neutrally and giving the next step, um, I, I think that is at least for your own peace of mind. That's it. That's important. And I had a boss when I first started in the corporate world that said something to me that I've used every, every time, and he said you know, whenever there's a problem, don't come to me with the problem. Um, come to me with what's the problem. What have you done so far? What are you going to do next and what do you need from me? And, as long as I, you know, so that that framework stuck with me and, and you know, I think that's the way to do good upward management is, yep, this is a problem. I recognize it. This is what I'm going to do. I really need your support in this area right now.
Speaker 2:I think that's a lovely little framework, scott, absolutely awesome mate. Well, like scott, we're, we're my. This hour has flown by. I can't even believe it's been an hour. It's not quite so, we've got time for one more. But I actually just reflecting now. Already, scott, it's do your analogies from that.
Speaker 2:The corporate world has been phenomenal and there's such a seamless crossover A lot of the stuff you're saying. I'm finding it intriguing and I think I could argue that there's a miss there for sports coaches in general who haven't been exposed to the pressures and lifestyles of the corporate stuff, because all of this stuff is, is great. I just love, then, how you said not only uh foot coming full circle on sort of like players performance wise a week to week, but coming full circle on that upward management in six months time, in a year's time, in two years time, checking in with the key stakeholders just to let them know and show them and revisit the things you said and and giving them the confidence in you that you are on on track and and doing what you said is is great, mate, and I think sometimes we miss that as coaches, bringing it back to what you said at the start, because we're so transactional. We just want to perform on the weekend but we miss that bigger piece.
Speaker 2:I think there's a lot of people out here, mate, that will be listening to this, that will just take a note of some of your detail which you get assigned to you, a lot that detail. But putting things into a diary and doing it, I think is great. The last question I want to leave with you, mate, and you have sort of mentioned one example of it, but I love to hear this question Is there a particular coaching, belief or principle that you hold that you suspect many of your peers would challenge or disagree with? Challenge or disagree with and I know earlier you mentioned, um, the one about asking players to live 365 be the eagle. But is there something else which you've dwelled on which you think is worthy of sharing, to just stir people's imaginations?
Speaker 1:Well.
Speaker 1:I wish I had something really insightful to say about the future of the game or you know something like that, but I think it. I think it comes down to I got really concerned when I started to work with some very successful coaches. Maybe not concerned, but I just I didn't agree with, just you know, I agree with the fact that players need to make fast decisions. Therefore, the less decisions that they make, the faster and the more, the more models they build, the more decisions they can make, you know, and ultimately influence the game. But I think that education of players and bringing them into the strategy portion, to having that breadth, I think is important. We've kind of said here is, I say you know, a good team is like cooking a really great breakfast in that you need meatheads and you need eggheads.
Speaker 2:Well, that's lucky. Most families are pretty well blessed with a bit of a mixture.
Speaker 1:Right are pretty well placed with a bit of a mixture. Right, yeah, exactly. But if you think about that, you want people to think deeply about the game and your team and you want to intellectually challenge them and stimulate them and help them develop in that way. And there's some players who you know their strengths lie elsewhere. You know, and I don't know if that's a challenge, but I think this it came across to me as very binary in that keep the box small. This is what they do. I thought there's more to it than that. A team is a team. They're just playing a game on the field. At that time, teams need leaders and they need people to see around corners and, you know, I think that's important. Don't keep the box small yeah, love it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, hey, scott, like, what a pleasure. What a pleasure, my friend. Um let's, it's lovely chatting. It's always a pleasure chatting to you, but certainly when you're doing it in this context, with a real purpose behind it, I've really enjoyed it and I've actually loved hearing your background as well and it's easy to see mate like coming from the Midwest where humility and hard work was the norm and the service mindset was instilled in such a young age, and then going through all your stuff with the nerdery.
Speaker 2:I think that's important, which seems to shape you a lot. And certainly the way you talk and enjoy yourself when you're talking is great, mate. But your theming, your messaging, the way you run your cultures I'm really pumped to see the future of American rugby and I know the American public is pumped too because it's a wider culture that has every right to love this game, because it resonates so much with the psyche of Americans, the values the contest. Look after your mates. It's so ingrained in American culture that it's about when it goes big, it'll go really big. So thank you for today, my friend. Go well on all your journeys, appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Thanks for having me on. Thanks for letting me ramble for a little bit with you. That was fun. I enjoyed it.
Speaker 2:Here's three final thoughts from scott. Number one listen to align. Scott emphasizes the power of listening first to understand and align everyone's goals. By truly hearing your players, colleagues and staff, you can increase the chance of uncovering your ideas, those hidden gems that can transform a team or project. Listening to the first step once you're aligned, you can push and reward accordingly. Number two from transactional to transformational. I love this one because coaching isn't just about the daily grind. It's about stepping back and allowing space for true growth. Scott reminds us to shift from ticking boxes and completing tasks, which is transactional, to fostering a deeper impact, and that's the transformational. Number three intentional work blocks, your ITBs. Scott carves out specific ITBs during a week, a deliberate way to set the tone for his next phase of work or training, and by designing these blocks, he ensures focused, high-quality efforts in each segment of the week. We'll see you next time.