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Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Ryan Martin: Burn the lesson plan. How to break through in professional coaching.
Questions? Text Ben Herring direct.
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Discover the secrets of crafting a winning team culture with our guest, Ryan Martin, a professional rugby coach with a unique background in education. Transitioning from a 17-year career as a primary school teacher to the rugby field, Ryan offers a wealth of insights on resilience, trust-building, and the importance of valuing individuals. We'll explore how his experiences as a young father and educator have shaped his coaching philosophy and influenced his innovative methods for fostering engagement and unity within teams.
Get ready to rethink traditional coaching approaches as Ryan shares stories of unconventional strategies that led to remarkable successes both on and off the field. From intimate coffee meetings to replacing standard training with off-field learning, Ryan's experiences underscore the psychological benefits of creating supportive environments. His tales highlight how a coach's personality and demeanor are reflected in team culture, with insights into the art of effective questioning and creating memorable interactions that inspire genuine connections among players.
Listen as Ryan delves into leadership styles influenced by personal experiences, illustrating how challenges can be transformed into powerful leadership tools. With anecdotes that emphasize kindness, gratitude, and adaptability, Ryan offers lessons on treating everyone with respect and using creativity to engage top-tier athletes. Whether you're in sports, business, or personal development, the strategies discussed in this episode offer valuable takeaways for building personal connections, enhancing team dynamics, and leading with empathy and authenticity.
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I'm really passionate about getting a rugby environment back to that new entrance class where everyone's curious. I had 17 years in a classroom and I was like a chameleon. I had to work out. Geez, what does this class need from me? What character do they need? I think you've always got to stand for something, and a meeting wasn't just sit down, shut up, listen. It was like right, let's engage and throw some ideas around. What you've done is you've instilled trust, because you've all been calm as coaches and said, hey, we believe in you, you guys have got this, we don't need to be on the field Trust you. The day you become a man is the day you love something more than yourself.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I am Ben Herring and I have been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's episode is with Ryan Martin. Today's episode is with Ryan Martin. Ryan is a late bloomer in professional rugby, having spent 17 years in education before making the leap into the pro world, and what a splash he has made. He's worked with New Zealand provincial teams before getting out and seeing the world with the Asian Pacific Dragons, the Rebels in Australia, toyota in Japan and now head coach at the Boston Freejacks. He is an educator in the truest form and conversations with him are always filled with lots to think deeper about.
Speaker 2:I can't wait for you to hear this. It would be a rye of me not to start with a little bit of your background which has led to your culture, mate, because you haven't come from a normal way of coaching pedigree and working up through professional sport. So can you just fill us in on how you've got to become a professional coach and how your background story has helped shape and influence the cultures you are part of?
Speaker 1:I think it actually started when I became a father as an 18-year-old and I had a pretty big decision to make around what that looked like, because we broke up the partner and I and I ended up looking after my daughter full-time and becoming a proper like real full-time father as an 18-year-old really shaped, I suppose, this whole journey I've been on to where I am now and it gave me some real awesome skills and resilience, which I think has really shaped the way I coach now and that start forced me to not only think about myself like a real cool mantra I always learned, but also that came alive when I did become a father was the day you become a man, is the day you love something more than yourself, and what that meant for me is everything that I all my little visions and dreams and aspirations went into the actual survival of somebody else, and that changes your life direction quite drastically.
Speaker 2:Yeah, doesn't it? It snaps, gives you a slap across the face as an 18 year old.
Speaker 1:Yeah so it forced me to um kind of look at where can I best, firstly, be an awesome dad and look after as a young fella, but also what can I do quickly to kind of get the ball rolling around, creating a good lifestyle for both of us? So that led me to go into teachers college, um, and the kind of the hours and the way that worked um synced in with being a full-time dad as well, and hence I got a bachelor of education, um, specializing in primary and um, I suppose that's where the coaching journey really started. Um, my first uh, I couldn't get a job in my hometown of dunedin. Um, it was really tough, tough market to get into, and I was probably the only person at the time with a handwritten CV, so I think that might have affected the whole process as well.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, that upgrade would have helped for your rugby as well, mate, with the amount of hours you do on the computer.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, my first job was at Pepto Intermedia in 2004. So I moved my daughter and myself up there. I'd never been to Auckland and it was a bit of a culture shock, to say the least. And then that's where the coaching actually really kicked in, because there's a real direct correlation between the stuff I did with the students and the kids of the school outside of the classroom and then there was a real like the way they acted inside the classroom was way better. So I kind of realized early on that coaching and teaching are the same and the relationship that you build outside of the classroom. What then happens in the classroom made it way better for me and it became an awesome behavior management tool and you just had way better relationships with the kids. And that gave me the bug really just seeing that those two things kind of melding together like coaching really well and truly helping people get better. And then you have these awesome deeper relationships.
Speaker 2:What sort of stuff, Ryan, were you talking about when you were at primary school level with behavior management? What sort of examples did you learn from that time?
Speaker 1:I just think primary education is really tough because you've got a class of 30 and there's a lot of learning needs, learning behavioral issues in classrooms at the moment and I found if, especially with young boys, like having that energy output outside the classroom in a structured way and like having boundaries in a sporting environment, almost like really help them calm down and understand what we're trying to do in the classroom and just carried those kind of same concepts like real simple boundaries, real simple rules. Got to do this before we can do that. Just those little things.
Speaker 1:then going into the classroom helps, especially those young boys then going into the classroom helps especially those, those young boys and those young boys are generally, uh, the young rugby players that come through too, right, oh, totally um, like in in south auckland, uh, where pepto was like it's just untapped um and it's you can see. You can see like kids all shoot off in different directions when they enter high school and you know like there's just kids that are lost to our game through circumstance that they don't really own.
Speaker 2:Okay, and so you continue that mate, like you've grown that education passion, that behaviour, management skills, stuff kept progressing as you went down your teaching.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I spent eight years in the primary sector and then, a big move, I made a shift from primary to secondary school. So I actually went back and taught at my old school, togo Boys High School, and that's when the kind of rugby really really kicked in. Before that I was doing a lot of different sports so basketball, touch league and rugby of course but that's when I specialised into rugby. When I went to the secondary school scene and kind of unshamely set up like a semi-professional environment where the boys are in the gym, you know, four or five times a week We'd have review previews. So it kind of gave me a little bit of a taste of that almost professional aspect of rugby early on. But I was able to that nine years I had at Otago World High School as first team coach. I was able to make a lot of mistakes early on which shaped what I went into the professional realm properly.
Speaker 2:And I remember you saying you had to go to the rector or the principal and try, schmooze to get boys out of class to be able to watch that video, to do the gym stuff. So that's a skill in itself, isn't it? To work out the ways in which you can advance your rugby program legitimately inside the school hours.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well was. It's actually quite a cool story because we used to have a study period, um. So this year, 13s would have a compulsory study period, um in their timetable, and so I went and talked with the rector if I could use that study period as a what I called sport class, where the boys would come to me so they could opt in to either do study or come to sport and we'd do, uh, rugby drills and different things and training and um, yeah, it just started like that and then it grew to the point. Throughout the years we ended up having, I think, 160 boys opting into the sport sport option instead of their studies.
Speaker 2:So yeah, and that program went really good, didn't it? The Tiger Boys, really, a program which was not bottoming out but certainly under underwhelming, went on to have some very successful results on a national scale.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think the one I was most proud of was from 2011 to 2018, we provided 33 boys to New Zealand schools, or New Zealand Barbarians, which was the most of any school in New Zealand, and that's where I was able to hang my hat in terms of our player developments, because success is dictated, especially at secondary school. It's a very fast cycle of ebbs and flows with who comes in. Generally, I only have a player for two years, so to have that kind of pride development at the forefront was the biggie for me and I was always proud of our boys would go into programs and just front um and it was.
Speaker 2:That was part of what we were creating a kind of a culture at our school yeah, awesome, mate, loved it and then and then obviously professionally, mate you, uh, you finished the school and made the jump to professional and it's been a huge variety of roles since then, hasn't it? From Otago to the Asian Pacific Dragons head coach, to the Rebels, to Toyota, now at the Boston Free Jacks as the head coach and again there, particularly advancing that program, similarly to the way you did with the school. Stuff has been really phenomenal, and this is your second time there. How did that manifest? You're obviously doing great things, clearly doing great things when you're going back to the same place and the people that were there enjoyed what you did and got you back.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, actually a funny thing before we get to there is I always remember when you came back and took over the head coaching role of Otago 2018 and you rang me and asked if I wanted to come down and do a session in the pre-season it was like with the Academy boys predominantly and I remember saying to my partner, my wife now Courtney I was like this will be the most important session I've ever done because I thought if I did a good job, it might put my foot forward, because I knew you were looking for an assistant coach. And I always remember saying to her this is going to be the most important session I've ever done in my life.
Speaker 2:Well, mate, you nailed it, you absolutely nailed it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just just I think it's something I actually stole off you, which is, um, I love the concept of like the teams you've been with, like the people that you've been with are your cheerleaders. So, wherever you go, if people were to ask about yourself, and you know that that the team that you work with, the, the players especially, are your cheerleaders, and if that's the case, it means you're, you know, doing a pretty good job and developing people and they enjoy what you do. So I think that's helped with my kind of all my different roles. You know, if people were checking in on, oh, you know, what did you think of Ryan and how did it go, and if I was pretty proud that most players, um, are my cheerleaders. So, yeah, that's helped yeah, mate.
Speaker 2:Well, just seeing you saying that, mate, I'll talk to this point because I've I just asked a few, uh, very experienced players just to give some thoughts, mate, and here's a quote on that from a very experienced player who's super rugby off over in uk and japan. This is his quote about you. On that front, mate, he's got a unique ability to relate to all the players in a quirky way but at the same time challenges you as a player to get outside your comfort zone and be better. And I reckon, mate, just knowing you myself, that that sentiment from the people I talk to not that I needed to that's rife, mate. Just the way you are with people, the environments you create are outstanding. So that's the feedback from the inside, mate, around you as a coach, it's wonderful. And, ryan, how does the culture piece for you? What's your definition of culture? Based on your teaching background, your progression through professional rugby, how do you now see culture and, potentially, how has that changed over the course of your experiences it's definitely changed.
Speaker 1:And I'll probably throw a cat amongst the pigeons and I put vision first, and I know Phil Jackson talks about vision is the source of leadership and I kind of want, I like to have a vision where, if you talk about it, the hairs on the back of your neck kind of stand up, like people are like wow, okay. And I think for me culture is how you get so. That's like a byproduct of having an awesome vision, like what are we going to, what do we want to do and what are we about? And then the culture almost fills that gap of okay, that's kind of how we do things around here. That's the way I've almost evolved my thinking.
Speaker 1:And there's another thing I've been really looking deeply at and it's around this concept that a team generally is the reflection of the coach's personality. And I've been thinking a lot about that. Like, if you think of Jamie Joseph, you kind of know what type of team is coming at you, like a Jamie Joe team. You know what they're going to be about, you know they're always going to stay in the fight, they're going to have stickability, and I've just noticed, just looking more into that, I think that has a big part of culture as well, so that, once again, that's a tool that lends itself to, you know, being a reflection of the coach's personality and, yeah, it's an interesting one. I just think I've really gone towards the vision thing and then use, and then the culture being the tools to create that vision.
Speaker 2:I think it's a. It's a really cool concept, mate. That well, not even potentially a concept, more of a reflection is it that the power you have in that status as the head coach or the leader or whatever that role is, but when you actually stop and go whatever I am, everyone that's potentially down the chain is going to pick up on that and that's going to go through. It's almost like parenting, isn't it? Where I know if my kids at the moment man like that, they will go test everything. But as long as their inherent uh selves are the bits which I am, yeah, then that they should be relatively okay. I'll come back me in 10 years' time with the little ones and we'll see how that's played out.
Speaker 2:But I think you're right, mate, sometimes we don't actually like coaches, don't appreciate the impact they have on everyone. That people are all looking up, and it's not just the things you say, it's the way you are, the things you do. That classic quote that I can't hear you because your body language is screaming so loud yeah, that that's all being picked up, it's been ingested and it's being spread throughout. Yeah, the galaxy of your team.
Speaker 1:yeah, well, I think of.
Speaker 1:Well, I think back to toyota and just you know, with the way you started, the morning was a connection piece and got the players to talk, which is probably quite tough for some of the Japanese. The style of the way they like to do things and I always remember it ended up lending like players would then be asking questions. Like we put it, you put an emphasis on questioning, so and that was like your personality, kind of going into our team and then it made any meeting we had. I definitely saw it, now that I reflect on it, that especially our Japanese players were way more comfortable being questioned but also asking questions, whereas I think and this is, you know, just a big judgment, but I think a lot of their schooling and university and maybe previous rugby experiences have been dictated to by above from a coaching perspective. And now that I reflect back on that time I think, geez, we actually got the boys asking lots of questions and a meeting wasn't just sit down, shut up, listen. It was like right, let's engage and throw some ideas around.
Speaker 2:so I think that was yeah and you mentioned too just in in chatting before this around where you've just arrived. Um well, you, when you arrive at a team, just that concept of the soft landing side of things, in terms of you're getting into a team and not bogging them down with hardcore rugby, but actually using the time, particularly in those pre-season things, to get an understanding. Can you just run through that kind of concept, because I think it's a really valuable one in the team culture?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So the first thing we did, we had a big Zoom team Zoom call on December 18, knowing that we're all going to physically be here Jan 5. And I thought it was really important when we did our zoom call, because sometimes I think they can be very painful, as is not to put any rugby content. But the first thing we talked to with the group of players was here's our bye weeks in our mlr season. Here's the date and we're totally off. So we want you to organize with your partners, your families, your friends, like you know, explore America. This is your time. And that was just a cool example.
Speaker 1:I've already had some feedback. I had a feedback today from LaRue Milan, who's you know well-traveled rugby player, and he's like mate, that start, just set a tone for everybody that, hey, this is true people. For us it's not a poster on a wall, because it's saying we care about, you know, the connections with your families and friends. Here's the time, go and use it how you see it. And we only did like a little bit of rugby content at the end and it was more vision. Stuff like this is where we want to go. And then the second part is I purposely made the timetable when we physically get here to have five days where players can come in, get used to driving on the other side of the road if they are from somewhere else.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah which is a big one actually, as funny as it sounds, little things like that freak you out a little bit. Get used to the food, it's very different, and it just means they can come in. They have a little bit Like get used to the food, it's very different, and it just means they can come in. They have a little bit of a flush in the gym and it's just like a really like the coach just settles up beside you and there's no rugby content. It's you know how was the travel? And just genuine.
Speaker 1:You know, comparing notes on American life already, I just think it's. I love that type of start and then it just means when you have your first team meeting, you've already got, I've already got all the connections, I know the personalities I'm dealing with, so that first meeting can be way more intimate in terms of how I can talk to the group. I think it's really important, rather than going in cold, because then you're only using rugby as the connector, whereas having these soft landings, having that time rugby comes last and that's the way it should be if you are truly caring about the players feeling really welcomed. We do a really good job here. Each player gets food packs given to them on arrival, just really important little things like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love it, mate. Mate, I think this is a really skill of yours, ryan, and here's another quote from another player that I just asked for around this. He develops relationships off the field and I think, through this, creates an open line of communication with his coaching, that if he has an idea for a tactical change in the way we play, he can get the player's feedback to adapt how it's run. I've found this pretty rare in coaches.
Speaker 2:Most coaches often put up a wall when challenged, and I think that's in part because of this kind of stuff that you do, mate. You put rugby aside, even though you're knowing you. You're very detailed around your rugby side of things, but you're also very detailed and planned around those connection pieces as well and doing these sort of soft landings a great example for me of how you're able to get more out of the guys because they go oh he, actually well, and because you genuinely do, too. You care about them as people, and it's a fantastic cycle to get into, because they're not independent, are they? No, the those soft skills and the rugby that you merge them together to get that synergistic effect which compounds things immeasurably.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think like it's. It's a tough thing and it's and it's. It's more than just saying, oh, how's the's the family? You know, I had 17 years in a classroom and I was like a chameleon. I had to work out, geez, what does this class need from me? What character do they need? Okay, here's my alpha male. How do I work with him? This is my at-risk kid. What does he need? And you know, sometimes I remember one math class, a bottom set mass class I was teaching, had a really, really tough, real tough kid and I just went over and I knew he'd be disruptive.
Speaker 1:He was really hurting other classrooms and he was actually quite feared by teachers. And I went over to him and said, right, yeah, me and you are going to have a gentleman's agreement. You can sit at the back of the class, you can go on your phone as long as you don't annoy me or the other, the rest of the class, mean real good. And he did that. But the flow on effect because I kind of addressed it straight away he ended up starting wanting to be engaged with the class because after a while he said, oh, this is actually quite cool. It's quite a settled classroom environment. There's like a um, there's stuff. I actually look like I would enjoy little games at the end if things have been going good and we ended up getting him engaged in our classroom culture because he, he wanted to be.
Speaker 1:It was like that concept that you want people to be part of your meetings. You don't want to have to tell people, oh, you're late. They shouldn't be late if they want to really be there. And it was I kind, and that was where I got that idea like okay, what does he need? And then I'll use a lure at some stage to bring him back in with the group. But I'm not going to force them to be part of the group straight away because it's not going to work and it's going to take a lot of my energy emotionally and his, and then I'm not working with the people that want to be there.
Speaker 2:So this is an incredible skill set to have, isn't it? When you're then related to a rugby team, because a rugby team is largely 30 people, same as a classroom, and you have all the same dynamics at play there and in any classroom. You've got to have rules and boundaries, like you talked about at the start, but you've also got to be understanding of the different individual individualities of each person in it, right, yeah, when you come back with your teaching, ryan, like I'm really intrigued in this question around, is there some sort of myths and coaching uh, uh from teaching or old school rugby that simply don't work? You reckon, in modern coaching, things that you've seen through your 17 years of teaching, that you just go. This is what a lot of coaches do, which potentially isn't great for culture.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I've been coming in and being part of rugby environments. I don't know if the weeks are correct in the way we structure and it's really funny. Whatever environment rugby environment you go into, generally the weeks are the same. And I always have a funny thing, like when rugby went professional, someone just said Monday's your review preview, tuesday's the you know whatever day. Wednesday's off, thursday then captains are on the game. Some teams have tweaked that slightly where you'd go Monday, tuesday, wednesday, thursday off, but the concepts are all the same.
Speaker 1:But if you look at proper like learning theory and like I'm a massive fan of Doug Lamov but he said you're always in a fight to forget. So in a seven day cycle, if you've introducing some stuff on a Monday, you've got to touch that at least four times in the week. But when you're touching it's got to come from different teaching styles. And there's also a funny thing like learning styles was actually debunked in 2004. It doesn't exist, but teaching styles do and I've actually experimented this with myself.
Speaker 1:A funny little experiment I've done just over here in america is normally when I use my google maps I have the sound on, but I'm a real visual. I like reading and if I was to go through the old school um, you know learning styles. I'm meant to be a visual person, you know, a reader to writer, but what I've found is, if I don't have the audio also telling me what to do, when I'm going on my Google Maps, I actually freak out, so just visually seeing 30 feet here and right. I need the audio, but I've never been an audio person.
Speaker 2:Because you're still looking the other way, mate. You're looking the right way. That's why you're freaking out. Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1:But it's funny. You're a product of, obviously, firstly, your home environment. If reading's valued, then you're going to genuinely be a reader and understand it and appreciate it. But those that aren't exposed to reading doesn't mean that's not a learning style of theirs. Their family may never have read books, but they could be an awesome reader. You just don't know. So I've really flipped around that. It's more teaching styles.
Speaker 1:And whenever we do our content at the start of a rugby week, it's more teaching styles. And like, whenever we do our content at the start of a rugby week, it's not having dominant days like this is attack day, this is d-day or this is whatever. It's like always interleaving the information so that we're just constantly in a fight to not to forget. But you want to get them almost forgetting this is what douglamov talks about and then hit them again and then so then the the bell curve goes up again. So when they first get information it's 100%. Then near the end of that day it drops off to about 50. If you hit them again the next day, it goes back to 70.
Speaker 1:So it's like a rugby environment doesn't really lend itself to that, because we have this, this funny rule like Thursday training, you can't introduce anything new. Well, who's made that up? Like I've. I've introduced stuff on a thursday with, um, you know, savvy players and it's not an issue. So it's like like there's this funny little unwritten rules in rugby weeks that I think someone's you know made up when it first become professional.
Speaker 2:We've all just adhered by it and and what are you talking about when, like I know, know, having seen you change up your style? What do you recommend is some good teaching styles generally for people to adopt or experiment with and mix up in terms of their own style.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like. Another cool example of this was I remember when I had Otago in 2020 and we were playing a tough team, northland, and I talked the head coach was Tom Donnelly. I talked him into. I could just see the group was a bit down and we'd lost three players to some disciplinary stuff and we had some young fellas come in to take their spots and I said, listen, I reckon this group needs something different this week. I said, if we do a normal rugby week, we could be put to the slaughter. And he was awesome. He, he adapted with me and what we did is we actually didn't train on the field for the whole week.
Speaker 1:So we did our, our big learning day at the hot salt water pool. In the pool we did our run through of all our the things we wanted to do and then after that we broke into little groups and had coffee around saint claire it's a real nice place little coffee shops, so you had like intimate little relationships. So the young fellas who were taking the spots of the boys who had been dropped felt really comfortable and we just did activities outside of rugby. That like, although they're probably freaking out geez, am I getting my rugby content? What was coming from, like the off-feet learning.
Speaker 1:It was like way deeper, way more meaningful than when we put up for our captain's run, which was the only time that we actually, you know, had boots on.
Speaker 1:As such, it was really clear and we ended up putting 30 points on Northland, who are a really strong team, and it was probably our best performance of the year and it was the only time we ever entered the field was for a captain's run. We went to the hot salt water pool, we went into this a little gymnasium area did it again but just gym shoes on played basketball, had lots of meetings, lots of little coffee meetings, making sure we're real clear on stuff. So I think, like in terms of a learning aspect because there wasn't the threat of on the field going super fast and making mistakes as young fellas, they're getting it from a different way, like relaxed and lots of conversation and um, in a real intimate environment. Anytime we did it, we would have been in a real close quarter environment, like there wouldn't be no more than 20 meters by 30 meters, the whole team together that whole week and I just just like I was like amazed at how good we were after that.
Speaker 2:I think it's. Do you also think there's a little bit of psychology in those sort of moments? Because, like, if you want the players to be relaxed and play calm, and then you as coaches embodying that but you're also embodying it by physically what you're doing You're essentially saying to your players we know you're fit enough, we trust you, know what you're doing, I have faith in you that we don't need to do a lot on field. That's what that's essentially saying that we trust you enough that we can go to the pool and just walk it through in a pool and go for coffees, and the players deep down are following that lead, going shit. These coaches actually trust and believe and know we've got this so much so that they can do this For me. That's the bit which I'm really intrigued at. Those sort of moments is what they put in heads, right?
Speaker 1:Oh, totally. Our captain at the time was Michael Collins and he said exactly what you just said. At the end of the week, when we got to the captain's run, he said what you've done is you've instilled trust, because you've all been calm as coaches and said hey, we believe in you, you guys have got this. We don't need to be on the field. Trust you, here you go. And we the field. Trust you, here you go. And we were the freshest team version of our team that entered that Saturday match and, as I said, 30 points later against a really good northern team, we're kind of like well, we've found something here yeah, and the special bit too, I reckon is, is that that'll be the bit that's remembered like when you talk about that that year or that season.
Speaker 2:If players are reflecting on cool things, it's not even probably the results, it's some of those cool connection pieces. Remember when we went to the pool, when we did that, and that'll be something that we just talked about. I have another one for you, ryan. You talked about the questioning earlier and I know this is something which I've picked up from you, and you talked about, um, uh, different teaching styles. But questioning is something which a lot of almost is is pushed on coaches that do a lot of questioning, but sometimes and often it goes too far. With that questioning, in terms of it, becomes a little bit condescending. I remember a player, sometimes as a player, hearing lots of questions and I just want to know, just if you know it, tell me don't, uh, don't patronize me with all these questions. And a lot of coaching courses talk about, yeah, do the question, you've got a question, got a question, so, but there's a real art to doing questioning, well, isn't there?
Speaker 1:can you just sort of expand on your thoughts around that, as you call it, keeping those questions and all the answers in your back pocket yeah, I'm actively passionate around this because it just breaks me and it's like an old school teaching methodology like you hide the knowledge and like you ask the kid that doesn't know it and he's, you know, found, like he's found out. So you're like, oh, you don't know that, and just give them the knowledge, like, and I, I think then let that be played with and that's where maybe cool questioning will come out of. So, for example, in a rugby sense, one thing that I'd always do is, if there was an opportunity, just say it was five attackers versus three defenders and we're looking from the attacker's perspective I'd maybe have a still shot, a screenshot of that situation, and maybe we didn't execute it. I'd start with I can see what you're trying to do here, so you can see the option that they want, that they did at the time, and then you'd say I wonder what else? So you have that curiosity and then we're throwing. It's not like, oh, why did you? What should have you done? And the player's like, well, yeah, I can see it. Now You've got this is in hindsight. It's like this is not a future-based solution. We're talking about something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I wasn't going fast enough, so there's no way I could have done what you're saying, that beautiful square hands you're talking about as a coach. So I'm always come from it, from that lens. So then it's like, okay, so you're overrunning, so there's no way you could have pulled the square hands. So what do you reckon could we do? And he might say, oh, I might, maybe I should have hit the seam and offloaded to the guy inside. So like yeah, rather than questioning and I've given them the knowledge, like we know what the outcome was, I'm not questioning that, what. What we're looking at is okay, what? Where is the growth? In this little bit of a moment, like I can see what you're doing and totally understand it.
Speaker 1:And then he gives you the context oh yeah, I was going too fast to do that, what was probably the clearest option. So you just start giving the picture. You're not critiquing, you're just correcting the stuff in front of you. And I think I've always found that's like that's a bugbear of mine and reviews. Like you know yourself, when you're a open side flanker like you, you miss a tackle in a game. You know why you missed it. After you've missed it, you don't need to be shown monday, denny, here's you missing this tackle, like you've already gone through it in your head probably 80 times, because you take a one-on-one tackle yeah correct.
Speaker 2:Gone out drinking until three in the morning just to drown my sorrows around.
Speaker 1:You don't need to see as a good coach. I know that's Ben Herring. He'll take that personal. I don't need to go through that with him in the review and put him out in front of the rest of the players Because that's an easy coaching moment for me. Naughty Ben missed tackle. You know easy, I get a stick in the box. Oh, he's a hard coach. He calls out stuff, but a smart coach with no Ben Herring always makes his tackles. That's going to hurt him more than anyone else and it's just. You know, like then I'd look at is it a systematic thing? Did he not trust insight or something you know? That could have been the simple outcome. You're thinking of two things at the time.
Speaker 2:That's why you had a weak shoulder. Yeah, I love it, mate. And even reviewing those questions, like with that vision decision, as opposed to having the answer like what did you see first and then what did you do I saw that example, except I was running too fast, so then my decision was X, and then that's that thinking process, and what you're really good at is creating that sort of curiosity, as you say, and I love that and I think that's a really interesting crossover, isn't it about the questions? How to balance that? Well, did you find that? You learned that stuff through the schooling stuff where the questionings had to be a little bit different?
Speaker 1:yeah, totally like. It just broke me. If you're at the front of the classroom, um, and you're just like hiding knowledge from the class and you're just getting nothings, and then as soon as you kind of questioning that way, you find people don't put their hands up. It's quite a cool experiment for me because I go back to my wife's class. She's got a new entrance and the first start of the day for them is they sit on the mat and children will present news, so stuff that happened the weekend. They might have a new soft toy, anything, a photo from what they did.
Speaker 1:And when it comes to questioning and this is I'm not making this up every kid puts their hand up. They've all got a question. And if you think of like schooling, if you then went through to like 13 year olds, no one will put their hands up. And then if you go to security, yeah, the person showing the news is almost ridiculed. It's like thinks he's the man, like did that in the week? You know like it's. We've we've flipped it so far the other way and and I'm just trying to like, I'm really passionate about getting a rugby environment back to that new entrance class where everyone's curious and they want to put their shand up, and they want to. You know like there's something in that for me.
Speaker 2:I think you're right, mate. I think any review of yourself in a meeting particularly as a professional coach, but any sort of coach is the amount of hands that go up show that people are invested and engaged and confident enough to do it. And that comes back to the cultural piece which you've created an environment where people are excited to be there, and I think that's massive, really good. Right and mate.
Speaker 2:What I also loved about the way you coach is not only that you think about the stuff a little bit different, but you also bring a little bit of difference to when you are presenting. We have often chatted about yourself as that mad scientist approach to stuff and I love that uh analogy you've used a couple of times about you always remember the scientists that blew up the lab as a student and that's kind of I loved it about the way you coach and your way you deliver. Particulars players like often leave your meetings like singing a song about what you're talking about or you match music or you do something humorous. So you really it seems like each delivery team meeting that you do you're trying for a real different outcome and you're trying to make things stick through quirky ways. Can you sort of run through your methodology of why that mad scientist approach. You use that in your cultures.
Speaker 1:Yes, it comes from teaching again. Like, as you mentioned, if you know you're going on to a classroom and this, this teacher's like a wee bit quirky and geez, you don't know what's going to happen. You find a homogenity of your seat and you you tend to like remember more because you're you're kind of looking for that time and that that's what I enjoy about coaching. I love the, the meetings, and I put a lot of time and energy into getting that right. Um, but you look at when a song is sung really well and like someone really you know you can tell that really means something. Like you, I think of eddie vita from pearl jam.
Speaker 1:When he sings black, like at some stage in his life he's had like a horrendous relationship. You know experience. When he does it live, his eyes are closed and you can, and it's like delivery for me in meetings is the most crucial thing, like, and it's it's been really like bold in the type of character that you what does the group need? Um, and like, is there a way to deliver this message using some type of teaching style, like, whether it's music or like, as you said, a little chant that will stick with them? Um, but getting a clear message across. You know, is obviously super important. But I think that experimenting with your delivery style, then, geez, if you're remembered for you know the little chant but they forget everything else but the chant is actually a key thing for the week then you've nailed it. Um, if a little song you've used really reflects where you're going and has some resonance with how you want to play a style that week, you know that's a winner straight away.
Speaker 1:And, um, I don't know, I just think sometimes we're not bold enough with with our delivery styles and be really brave and that's what excites me. And and, to be honest, you probably know this, but I practice it a lot. So, like I'll pop at 3am knowing I've got this crucial meeting in the morning and I'll just keep running through my head and then when I get to the office at 7am, I need my own time and while I pretend that I'm on my laptop, I'm actually just looping what I'm going to do in the meeting in my head. So people look at me at 7 am, want to maybe come and ask me something, but I'm grumpy on my laptop, but what I'm doing is just practicing the importance of that delivery to the meeting and then I go in there kind of. It's like Tony Robbins like before. He goes and does a real awesome presentation. He jumps Like he gets his energy up, like I need that.
Speaker 2:You're like the mini me version of Tony Robbins, though, mate.
Speaker 1:I just need that free time because I know how important it is and I treat every meeting like that, even if it's like a units meeting. It's a different style, like I'll tend to sit down on a chair and be at the same level as the group, almost like a, you know, like a kind of a campfire situation, and we'll have some, maybe some screen time and some questioning. I'll throw something weird out and then I find that really builds a cool little environment yeah, having seen it done, mate, like I think you really do that.
Speaker 2:Do you? Do you actually have, like, when you talk about building that type of character you want to be in when presenting? Do you have a sort of a variety up your arsenal around what you're going to go in? So today is this guy and you've got this guy, sort of perfected.
Speaker 1:Do you have?
Speaker 2:anything like a set list of characters that you pull out.
Speaker 1:I think when I go back to teaching, like I had 17 years in the class and I was a real chameleon, like I practiced different styles of like delivery and then it gave me this kind of cool arsenal that I can pull out at any time. And I like watching, like live music. I remember I went to a punk concert with yourself we're in nagoya and like the energy in the room was like real intimate and you could hardly hear the words, but the energy was like it got me. I was like, wow, there's something. And like you can't hear what he's saying but you want to be with him and you're like loving the strumming and you're like sometimes you don't need words and I was like, wow, that that's a cool way, like is there something I can do around that? So I try and like throw myself out in different experiences, like I walk the streets of New York earlier.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's got a dark. Yeah, yeah to it. Right, you're walking the streets of.
Speaker 1:New York. This is, there's something in this the hustle, bustle, the noise but it made me alert. I was like jeez, I'm gonna have to have my wits about me, and is there a way to present a meeting when the players are on each that? Oh geez, we're going to have to be on, don't know what's coming at us. So I think it's just general experience in the classroom and also just being open to you know, exploring and being curious in our own environments.
Speaker 2:Well, I also take note of something like culturally, and part of your leadership, which you do a lot of, is you've actually worked with some really top players, the likes of Aaron Smith and Bowdoin Barrett last year. So you're dealing with some high-caliber international players. But I really like that character that you talked about, because I know you have these. That character that you talked about because I know you have these little things that you do sometimes to actually build deeper connections, and I remember you talking about what you did on the, your screen savers, and I'm probably giving away a lot of your like inside, your inside moments here.
Speaker 2:But this is a little thing which I think coaches will enjoy is when you start up those little uh, mini groups or your tech straps or groups, you have a different um picture on your laptop cover and it looks like it's random. It's just you're just changing your pictures every day, but it's not. It's. It's quite deliberate, isn't it to? You want to? Can you and I love the stories around that can you share that sort of that story about hitting the person you want to? Can you and I love the stories around that can you share that sort of that story about hitting the person you want to hit with that picture on the on the screen yeah, it's definitely a cool way to start a meeting.
Speaker 1:So I always have a different picture. So when the tech comes up on the tv screen, I'm not saying anything. The players come in and they look at the picture and you can just see like it could be. You know well what.
Speaker 1:So an example that one of my favorite ones was um, I ended up talking to aaron around, you know like because he was an older, older guy on the team, and we kind of made a bit of bit of a thing that, like I said, oh, me and you are the kind of the more experienced, older guys here we have to show these young fellas about movies and music they won't understand. And we, we talked about Back to the Future movie and we're cracking up like, oh, the young fellas won't know that movie. But so I got a little screenshot of the doc and Marty McFly, but I put Aaron and my face in it and that was one of our screenshots. And so Aaron comes in, he looks at this. No one else knows what's going on.
Speaker 1:They're like what's that a picture of? But Aaron looks at it. He's like, oh, that's me and ryan on the in the um back to the future movie. So it's like then already he's like oh, okay, that's like a wee funny thing that me and him happened, like he's chuckling away before the meetings even started. And then the players like, yeah, what's going on here, you know, and aaron's oh, you boys won't understand this like. So it's like just it's silly little quirky things that build kind of cool little connections. Sometimes I might have a picture of myself surfing, like a hilarious picture, you know, and they're kind of like it just shows a little bit of a different side of who I am, and they might ask, oh, where was that? And then the surfers in the group will go oh, that's a small wave, can't you get a better one? So you start getting these cool little dialogues going before a meeting even starts.
Speaker 2:It just relaxes the tone and then you boom, you go into your work. It's just yeah, and it's what a great little tool to use, isn't it just? Uh, just to offset, like like we talked about at the start, like starting not with the rugby yeah, it is is really a powerful thing. It just creates like and I've seen you deal with those pictures that the meeting starts with everybody talking about the picture just to their neighbor next to them or asking you questions, and it's creating that group dynamic feel, which is exactly what you want.
Speaker 1:And you haven't even touched on the reason why you're all there, which is the meaning like then you, it's really easy then to maybe go into a niggly thing as well, because you kind of like you, like you had this kind of soft start, as this is probably something I keep coming back to like that soft human start, and then the rugby comes second. So then whatever is coming with the rugby, is it's not a problem? Hey, we've had a little bit. We all feel relaxed, not, you know, always had a laugh at my surfing technique. So it's like we're all you know ready to go and um, yeah, it's just surfing technique. So it's like we're all you know ready to go. And, um, yeah, it's just, it's just a, it's that soft starter, it's like getting everyone on the same page real fast, yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's just the human aspect to it too, and certainly I feel that this is a way and a technique to use, particularly for modern coaching, like if you tried to do some of the stuff 30 years ago, it wasn't the norm. I can imagine there'd be a lot of resistance against all this stuff. But if you're not even attempting this sort of stuff in this current era of coaching sport, you're not going to stay current, because society's changed and coaches have to change with it. And where we're at with coaching, we're coming through this level of society and this sort of stuff 100% helps, whatever you are doing it for the sport that you're doing it for. Oh, totally. So it's outstanding.
Speaker 1:You look at our dads like the way they brought us up compared to how we would parent our kids, like we took the best parts of what our dads did with us but we've adapted it. And you know cause our kids are different. They've got different challenges and they're exactly the same as our athletes. The way my dad parented me geez, that would not work now. He'd be locked up, you know.
Speaker 2:We won't go into details there. That goes down a dark and sordid path. But whilst we're talking about dark paths, mate, I guess it's. I know yourself that you do actually draw a lot from um the dark side of your experiences in life. I'm not saying having a kid at 18 is is a dark side, it's's a beautiful side, but it is an experience which is laced with a lot of it's tough, it's hard to be a single father raising kids, and I know that you do draw a lot from the dark side of life and I'm interested to know what that means for you, like sort of culturally and leadership, wise, wise. I do know that you're very good at resonating with those that have gone through some dark times as as well, but how do you, how do you draw on? You know, not just the positive experiences, but the negative experiences as well too yeah to be better.
Speaker 1:I think, um, I think what I learned becoming a dad at that age and like I had to go on the dpp, which is dependent person's benefit, so I saw a real different side of life. Um, I lost all my friends, bar one who would um come and visit me and my daughter, because everyone freaked out. They're like, well geez, what are you? You know, what do you do with ryan? He's got this little little girl with him all the time now, like they don't want to go to the parks.
Speaker 2:You know, do the, the, the looper 18 year old boys don't want to go sit on the picnic at the the park with the mom it was real interesting just the way I was treated.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, going to wins, the wins office to get your payments and things like the way you're treated there. Going to banks like when I got my first job I had to go and WINS office to get your payments and things like the way you're treated there. Going to banks Like when I got my first job I had to go and get a loan to get a car to get up to Auckland and I got ushered out of a bank very quickly Like mate, are you kidding? And like it was just. I think I draw it a lot around that that I would never like.
Speaker 1:I have a real appreciation of how easy it is to be treated like that and just learning around like the status and how people are treated and it really irked me and I made sure that we, whenever possible, I want to make sure people are really comfortable, no matter who, and you know, even like even when I go and stay at a hotel, you know that you get a lot of in in a rugby environment. For me it's such a pleasurable and I'm really grateful for and I always try and make sure I keep the room real tidy. I'm wary of the people that have to come and clean up after me, just little things like that, and I think that's helped drive me Just having real appreciation. I just think rugby environments are amazing. You get kit, you get clothes. It's like awesome food, hotels, travel, like. I'm always so grateful.
Speaker 1:I just have a knowing the other side of life. I'm just so appreciative of that stuff and I think, because it's really genuine, it may be like that's my personality a little bit and that's what I was saying that you know, the team is a reflection of the coach's personality. If the, the players know, hey, we go to hotels, we look after them, we're respectful of the cleaning staff, everybody, then it just becomes a thing you know, and I think I learned a lot of resilience, being a young father as well, to get out of, you know, a so-called hole that I would deem it at the time, um, and that just it just gave me a real clear way of how I want to live my life and be to people, and I think that's where I draw that kind of inspiration from, like knowing the other side of life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, certainly, mate, you are very generous with your time. I've seen you well even we are at the moment in Boston, like I know when you got there you were running clinics for club coaches and reaching out. I know, when you're getting players to present, you just don't let them hang by themselves. You actually give them phone calls, you get them to come see you and you walk through their presentation, you chat through their presentation so they can deliver the next day and at least be as confident as they can be. And it's that level of care, I think, which probably derives from your own experiences where you didn't get a lot of care right and then you see it come out the other way, which is unreal, mate. And I think that's why those players, those professional players that I quoted earlier, just admire the way you develop relationships off the field. And yeah, it's really cool, mate. Another thing which, just on that relationship front, I think this is a cool one too, before we get onto our last stuff is just some of those connections you do make, mate. I love your attack strategy.
Speaker 2:Meetings went actually off-site. They actually went off-site. So there's another little quirk I just thought I'd get in. They became a an event which everyone looked forward to. Instead of doing your attack strat strategy group in the in the environment, you actually said on a wednesday night, we're going to go out for dinner and have a few drinks. So then it the the boys got so into it that they began dressing up and every fortnight when you had your attack strategy groups, you had to have a day off. Make sure we had the day off afterwards because the guys were so charged for it. But that was lovely, mate, yeah they were.
Speaker 1:That's probably that soft thing again. It was hilarious because I've done it everywhere I go and the first one's always so funny because they think it's going to be like this rugby content stuff. And so they get there and everyone's kind of prim and proper and waiting for us to talk about rugby and then when I say, hey, boys, we're not doing any rugby tonight, they're like oh, you see them almost like mentally relaxed and it's just so cool, like it, like having um. It becomes like you know, like this really cool forum where you have a little bit of a talk around stuff and um, it just helps me coaching, because then I have what I'd call like four or five disciples, um, and then just all our messages are shared, we all see the same stuff and we become quite a tight-knit group, which helps take the team in a direction that we want to.
Speaker 2:Love it, mate. Love it Well, Ryan. We've come to that time where there's only enough room for one more question and a closing thought. So the question is this, mate, Is there a coaching belief or principle that you hold that you think many of your peers might disagree with? And I ask that question because I just think this type of conversation really lends itself to challenging mindsets and thinking about the way we do things as a coach, and particularly around the culture and leadership stuff. So what are your thoughts on that one?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I, it's an interesting one for me. But I I think there's something I I do that if people to look at it, they'd be like, oh, that's probably not good coaching practice, but like I do skill drill, um to the point of like super, super deep rehearsal, so I'll just do the same thing over and over and over and over and over and like if you were to come and watch, so I always start, just say, for a backline session, we always start the same way, threading the ball through the post. But if you're to look at it, there's like little bits of lines. It's not like good coaching, like not. It's. Sometimes other guys are just watching and it's like, oh, they're doing the same thing every single.
Speaker 1:But for me it like builds this kind of. It's like a starting point and what we're actually secretly doing is subconsciously, as a group. I don't say a word when we start a session. I just go on the whistle, they go the post and they start throwing these threads and it's every single session it's the same thing. Nothing either changes. But we start to build this kind of collective like. We become this, morph into this one thing and it sets a tone for the session.
Speaker 1:But if you're watching it from afar or coming from a coaching practice, you like, oh, geez, like that looks a bit. You know, there's two lines and they're lined up and they're waiting for a turn and it's it goes against you know modern kind of oh, there should be little games or lots of people. There's not a word said, it's just the word of whatever the call of the passes that we're using, um, and it's just something I've learned. Like deep rehearsal means you can retrieve things really quickly.
Speaker 1:Um, and I think you've always got to stand for something and, like I, for me, it allows us as a group to have something that we hang our hats on. So, and I actually count the number before we do a failure of a pass and, as I said, it's every single session and like we get up to would start us the very first time you do it. You might do 10 or 12 as a, and that would be your finish point. Then you get to like 100, 200, 300 within three minutes. No one and the boys kind of almost forget while we're doing it, but it just as I said, it brings this kind of collective thing together and then boom, we're ready for our work. Um, and it's something I'm massive on like not not going away from like the fundamentals of really just real simple skill drill before you kind of go into anything else well, I like it.
Speaker 2:I think think that concept of the deep rehearsal means you can retrieve easier.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and having seen you done that and all the drills that you often put up on your Instagram and stuff is a lot of that sort of stuff, that deep rehearsal. So you get a lot of chahoo in your sessions, which it does who in your sessions, which it does. When you watch one of your sessions, particularly those warm-up ones, the start there is something else which comes as like just the enjoyment the players have because they know 185% exactly what they're doing and you hear people go like, yeah, let's go, let's do this, and they just bring that energy, which is what you want from the start of any session. Yeah, yeah, yeah, righto Ryan, hey, which is what you want from the start of any session. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Righto Ryan.
Speaker 2:Hey, mate, what a pleasure it is to chat to you, as always, and I always walk away with just that little bit of something's twigged in me, a little bit of an aha moment. I feel like the way you think about rugby is not just rugby, it's about the people behind the rugby and that's why I always love chatting to you, love coaching with you, mate. So thank you for today. Go well with the seasons and the future as you go forward. Cheers, brother.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much. Great questions.
Speaker 2:Here's my final three thoughts from a conversation with Ryan. Number one team is a reflection of the coaches personality. I couldn't agree with the statement more. We as head coaches, or coaches in general, are the front person for our audiences. We are, in effect, the spoonful of instant coffee that mixes and taints the water inside the cup and the cup. That's our team and that's our culture.
Speaker 2:Number two start soft instead of rugby. First, what you want to start out your interactions with is getting to know people as a person, people as people. If you don't, you only have rugby as the connector, and we want more than that for our great cultures. Think about how you start your days, your weeks and even your session plannings, and how you intend to interact with people across all those time frames. Number three you want people to want to be at your meetings. If you deliver meetings which are fun, engaging, as well as delivering all the points that you need to get across the rugby, you're going to get people turning up on time enjoying themselves. You're going to get people turning up on time enjoying themselves. Ryan talks about the mad scientists and being quirky with what you do in order to make memorable moments which stick in the heads of those you're talking to. He also says be bold in the type of character you wish to be. Be bold with your delivery, play around, use it as a lab. We'll see you next time.