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Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Eddie Jones: Culture shocks. Environmental learnings from England, Australia and Japan.
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What if the key to a thriving sports team lies not just in strategy, but in deeply understanding its cultural fabric? Join us as we sit down with the legendary coach Eddie Jones, who unpacks the essence of culture and leadership in sports. Eddie shares captivating stories from his coaching journey at Leicester, with the Springboks, and the Japanese team, illustrating how recognizing and respecting a team's core cultural values can lead to remarkable growth. Discover how authenticity and player feedback reveal not only individual strengths but also the deeper values that drive team success.
As societal norms evolve, so too must coaching strategies. Our conversation with Eddie delves into how shifts from team-oriented to individualistic approaches, especially in places like Japan and Australia, challenge traditional coaching methods. We explore how coaches can adapt to these new dynamics by "walking the floor" to understand team chemistry and identify emerging leaders. Eddie's insights into delegating responsibilities within larger squads underscore the importance of multiple voices in reinforcing team culture, while contrasting motivations of past national pride with today's focus on unity through the sport itself.
Leadership and belief are at the heart of Eddie’s coaching philosophy. Drawing parallels to business strategies, he discusses the relentless drive required for success, illustrated by experiences with Suntory and the Japanese team. We examine the role of fear in leadership and its ability to command respect, much like parenting. The art of giving constructive feedback without breeding resentment is another key theme, emphasizing the need for understanding individual player needs and fostering a sense of belonging. Eddie’s candid anecdotes and strategies offer a treasure trove of insights for anyone looking to excel in coaching and leadership.
What is culture? The way you do things, it's really the way you behave, because I reckon a coach is a bit like being a psychopath. Right, you're watching the room, you're trying to pick up what's going on, you're trying to pick up patterns. I really need to change and it's probably you know, I don't think I've coached badly, but I don't think I've coached well there. I didn't know Graeme Henry that well, but a little I had to do with him. He was a good student of life. I reckon Probably the best experience I had for coaching was doing casual teaching.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. On this episode, we welcome Eddie Jones, Renowned for his shaping high-performing cultures in his own distinct way and frequently in the media spotlight. He has experienced it all. He loves the game, prizes the art of coaching and always invites deeper questions. Eddie, what is your definition of culture and how does it look for you?
Speaker 1:I think it's the way you do things. I've heard it being described as a behaviour when you're not with people, but I think it's just the way you do things. Like you know, I can remember playing at Leicester and I threw a quick line out here and I got a big hand on the back of the shoulder from the tight end prop. He said we don't do it like this, we don't do it like that here. And immediately you know you knew the players were. They believed in something because they had a way of playing and my experience at Leicester during that time was exactly that. The players were really powerful and led the culture of the team. You have little experiences that just enlighten you to the culture. Then I remember going to the Springbok and the first thing I had to do, jake asked me to Jake White asked me to give a praise of the Springbok and the first thing I had to do Jake asked me to, jake White asked me to give appraisal of the Springboks, which was pretty daunting, you know, australian coach walking and giving appraisal of the Springboks. Anyway, we chatted and then I remember at the end of the meeting, victor Matfield and Farid Apri came up and said do you remember that play you used to play at the Brumbies. It was like a winger off. He said they're the sort of things we want to start looking at.
Speaker 1:You had an impression at the Springboks that it was a really tough, hard-driven, coach-driven team where, in fact, the players were really really strong within our outside culture. So I think, just get a feel of the way things are done, you know, and what's important in the place are done. You know and what's important in the place and sometimes it can be rugby and sometimes it can be other values that are really important, like it's interesting with Japan. Going back to Japan now, you know a big thing's been made about Japan, about how they leave places. You know how they left the dressing room and to me that's the only thing left from what we had before and all the probably the good things are gone, but the ceremonial part of of keeping things clean the players still want to keep, but they don't want to. Well, not that they don't want to keep the other things, they just those things have been forgotten, like you know, maybe respect and loyalty and some of those more intrinsic values that, again, depending on the team, they either stand out or they don't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and just on the reference of sort of going into the spring box, as an Aussie, did you have to like have a bit of a tint about how you started there?
Speaker 1:Or did you?
Speaker 2:just roll on yourself.
Speaker 1:No, I just always, you know, essentially try to be myself. But I always remember after that, about three sessions, after, one of the players came up and he said please don't swear at training coach, we don't like swearing. And again, you know, again, that was a really strong message, you know, and as a coach, when you get those messages from the players, you know there's something cooking here, you know there's something happening here, because they're guiding the behavior. Because what is culture? The way you do things, it's really the way you behave, you know. So your actions are more important than your thoughts, because you know your actions are always.
Speaker 2:That's what you do and how did you adjust on that one Like, what's the balance between? I appreciate that's what, like, say, the square, and if you thought, nah, this needs to get the message across, would you?
Speaker 1:No, you could feel that was almost like a non-negotiable, because the other thing about culture I think there's when you go, and I feel that was almost like a a non-negotiable because, because the other thing about culture I think there's when you go and I'm talking about different cultures now, when you go to a culture, I think you can, you've got to be able to pick up what's non-negotiable and then and then not try to challenge those ones. But then there are other areas that definitely will be negotiable and they're the things you can possibly improve the culture of the organisation at that time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what were some of those examples like you did such a good job at England when you got a mayoral war. Is there any ones from that, as you went on and it was just a change.
Speaker 1:Every team's really different mate, and that's the thing that you know probably has been consistent. You've just got to try to find the one or two things that are going to improve how you're doing Things. Like they had a really good team England yeah, good players, but they were trying to be something they weren't, which was an all-action team Like England's. Not an all-action team, they're a containment team. You know they contain teams and then when they get a chance they'll break and it's almost.
Speaker 1:I always see the English sport is nearly all the sports are like that. That's when they're at their best and they can be something else for a while. And I think that gets back to a bit of a societal the way the society is. Because, you know, coaching international teams always find that you've got to sort of understand the society and what are the key values in the society, and that will be generally the same in the team. English like to be polite. You know again, they don't like confrontation in front of people, so really tried to avoid that. But they like humour, so you could use humour with England because sarcasm is a big part of their culture. Japanese polite punctual like punctuality is huge in Japan.
Speaker 2:Yeah, did you have to gain a sense of humour going to England? Did you have to work on it? No Funny, did you have to consciously go? I have to be more polite and slightly more humorous when I'm speaking in front of the team, or was it just sort of?
Speaker 1:I just targeted a couple of guys to have a bit of fun. With start with I thought, like I knew Haskell beforehand, so I'd had lunch with him and met him a few times, so I sort of knew him and I and I and, but I went to him before the meeting, before one of our first meetings. I said, mate, you're going to be my number one player, you're going to play every game to six nations, so I'm going to back you, right, yes, and just like that. And then then at the meeting I made a comment about him, like I hope he's doing his finger exercise because he's hanging on my dear life to be in the team, you know. So it sort of broke the meeting up. Yeah, yeah, right. How did he respond to?
Speaker 2:it. He was good as gold. He was good as gold. Well, I guess that was the one. Because I had that experience coming from Leicester to Japan, I tried to just cut and paste what we were doing there until the captain Riotto came up and said just because it works there doesn't mean it doesn't work here. And he was right, like the whole system that. I was trying to do just wouldn't work. Would you agree that you've got to individualise to what's there?
Speaker 1:You've got to know what the room needs, you know what that team needs and, again, I think you know some of the base cultural values of the society. All guides the way you do it, but you've just got to find out what they need and what they need quickly.
Speaker 2:Do you think that's so? If you were to expand this to sort of outside of rugby, to sport business, would you say that's kind of the fundamental of a culture is understanding the deeper roots. Yeah, like if it's a national business it might be. What does that nation's drive us?
Speaker 1:to 100% and know what people think. Like yeah, there's a great story about gosh I can't remember how you pronounce it took over Nissan who were bankrupt you know going bankrupt. He came in. He spent the first four or five days just walking the floor talking to people. What do you think? Yeah, and it's the same in a rugby team. You go into a rugby team and you try to pick out three or four players that you think might give you some good information. Try to pick out three or four players that you can see that they're not quite sure whether they're going to give you everything they've got. And then you try to pick up a thread of that and take it through.
Speaker 1:And I think the interesting thing is that, going back to Japan 10 years and going back to Australia after 20 years, some of the things that were relevant 10 or 20 years ago aren't relevant now. Society is changing all the time but I think it's really changing some of the way, some of the behaviours of players now, particularly in Japan, where they're really team focused. And you think about Japan after World War II. You know they were a devastated country, had to work together, like it was a big thing about working together. They created a religion to bring the country together. Like Shinto is like a religion in each temple has a different God and they tried to make an all Japan Shinto so everyone would buy in. But now it's definitely changing. It's much more individual and so how I coached 10 years ago, japan's not relevant now. I really need to change it's much more individual.
Speaker 1:And so how I coached 10 years ago, japan's not relevant now. I really need to change and it's probably you know, I don't think I've coached Bali but I don't think I've coached well there in the first year that I didn't pick that up quick enough. And some of the times you know, you say you don't pick it up quick enough but you've got to let it evolve a little bit and find out a bit, because you only really know under pressure how that, how that culture is going to be. Because that's the other thing I reckon you know. You don't really know what a culture is until they're under pressure. Yeah, it's the old teabag test. You know someone holds up a teabag. Unless you put it in hot water, you don't know how it tastes. It's the same. Yeah, everyone can have. You know we're all in this together. We're all. We're all, we want to work together. We all respect it. But it's when you're under pressure you really find out, and do you?
Speaker 2:find there's a bit of experimenting. Is it kind of A hundred a?
Speaker 1:hundred percent, a hundred percent and and it depends on your situation yeah, with Japan now it's a longer growth spurt, Like we've got to. We're probably going to take three or four years to get to where we need to get. So I don't need to do things urgently. But if I did that with England, you wouldn't be in the job. Yeah, Right, so you've got to, you've got to realize the situation.
Speaker 2:That's the pressure, isn't it? Yeah?
Speaker 1:Results versus long term process, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, I actually enjoyed you saying walk in the floor, because I heard you say that years ago and I actually took that on board as my own personal thing. I think you were talking about you just walk the gym floor sometimes and just chat and be there for a session, and I personally found the information you get around who's the clown, who's the different aspects?
Speaker 1:was unbelievable. And how the players are relating to each other. Yeah, you know, without any prompting. And how the players are relating to each other without any prompting. Who do they go to for a bit of support or a bit of leadership? Who's the guys that they really respect? I think you can pick that up a lot by just watching people.
Speaker 2:And is that a gut feel you reckon? Or is there any triggers that you go? If you say, if we take the example, you're walking the gym floor in a professional environment, is there anything you would go? That's a good sign or is there anything you would go that's a bad sign?
Speaker 1:Always look at the groupings. If they choose their own groupings, who gravitates to who? And if you've got the senior players all gravitate to each other, yeah, that immediately sends out a bit of a warning. And what would you do if you saw that? Well, I'd encourage the SEC coach to look at it. Life changed, slowly changing, like. I would have done that myself, and now I want the staff to do it.
Speaker 2:What's the lead actually?
Speaker 1:The way teams are now. There's so much more to do that you need to delegate responsibility more, that, as a head coach, you can't be responsible for everything, so you need your coaches to be doing that job for you, because there's too much to see now, mate, and the squads are bigger now, like you know, even at international level, we've got 36, 38 players all the time, and previously you had 28 to 30. Like that extra eight to 10 is a lot more people to look after, so you need more people being responsible for for watch, observing the players, picking up threads, getting getting better behavior from them, do you?
Speaker 2:think with the culture that even though you're delegating, that essentially the culture is on the leader, or the head coach, or the director, the person.
Speaker 1:I think he's got to set the direction, um, but I don't think he always has to be the one pushing it and in fact, you don't want that to be the case. You want that to be diversified and broken up more Because, again, I think the more you can get the more voices saying the same thing, the more chance you've got of getting a tipping point. And when you've got a tipping point, that is, you've got enough people doing the right thing, then you get real change.
Speaker 2:Is there a degree of selling the culture?
Speaker 1:Definitely, but sometimes I think the only culture you've got is the game, like that's the thing that drives people together. And other times it can be wider values, like, again, if I look back, that 2015 team with Japan we were about saving Japanese rugby, so it was a much wider purpose than than just playing rugby, whereas now I think the team the only thing that really brings those players together. They don't. I don't think they have huge nationalistic pride. Yeah, that's a change and again, that's not a criticism, it's just a reality, and so the game's the driving force that brings them together.
Speaker 2:So just in that regard, you were talking about that being the fastest team in the world Is that?
Speaker 1:the Well. That's what we're trying to sell. But that's a hard sell too, mate. It is, yeah, because it's hard, it's hard, it's hard. Would you rather be sitting on the beach or repeatedly sprinting? And most people want to sit on the beach, mate. Look how many people are out there now.
Speaker 2:I love that I chatted to a few blokes around that camp that you did in 2017 and a couple of the guys are like retired now. They're like that's a once-a. That's how you guys trained, but memorable. They look back with almost pride about how they went about it Well.
Speaker 1:I reckon that's another interesting piece of culture. Is that how you get that emotional attachment like, how you get get them to to really remember, because all the conversations you remember are things that touch you emotionally, and so one one of the jobs of the leaders is to make sure that he's got the right amount of emotion when he when he presents a message and that's supported by the rest of the staff as well.
Speaker 2:Do you think on that aspect? So this was kind of where I guess I'm getting at in this conversation that the right amount of emotion in a conversation or a presentation is not really the rugby element. It's like the ability to deliver.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So would you suggest that area of that delivery would be a real focus for leaders or key coaches to practice and go away and work on that delivery?
Speaker 1:Definitely, mate, definitely.
Speaker 2:Have you done that?
Speaker 1:Well, I think it's. You know a lot of that's about what's the context of the situation, like a guy was talking to me yesterday about a very experienced coach called Frank Dick who coached Daley Thompson, katrina Viss, boris Becker so he was an athletics coach but he coached a lot of people and he's got this wonderful ability to understand where you are and then deliver the right message at that time. And I think that's a real skill, because I can give you a message now that's relevant at this moment, but if your mood changes then that message is not necessarily going to be right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I need to, I need to be able to, to sense that with you and then change the message.
Speaker 2:And has that just been experience? Oh, I think. Or being reflective on, like, how do you grow that aspect of?
Speaker 1:yourself. I think you've got to be purposeful about it. Firstly, you've got to understand that's important. We had the last week of the tour. One of the staff got up and said, oh, it's just another week. Well, it's not another week, it's the last week of the tour, yeah, so everyone's thinking differently now. Last week of the tour some people were thinking, oh, I want to go down Coogee Beach, I want to get home and see my girlfriend. They're not thinking that in the first week. So you've got to understand the context and then try to connect with those players. So I think you've got to be purposeful about it. I think you've got to think a lot about the game and about the situation. And that's the hardest thing to do, mate, particularly when you're under pressure week to week is to find the space to think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what do you do to?
Speaker 1:find the space Well. In previous teams before Japan this one I've always had like I'd call second set of eyes. I had a guy called Neil Greig who was absolutely fantastic, like we'd sit down every morning have coffee.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And just spoke about the day. You know what happened yesterday. What's important today? Who's going to be important today? Who needs to be spoken to? Yeah, what sort of message you want to deliver? And I reckon that's almost like gold mate when you've got someone there that's independent, not too caught up in the emotion of the team, but knows enough to give good advice. And you see that a lot in NBA. Now A lot of the basketball coaches have got a senior guy who sits above him for that same sort of thing, and I think because the roles have become so big mate.
Speaker 2:So it's almost like a mentor Fair, a coach mentor mate. So it's almost like a mentor Fair, a coach mentor mate, a coach mentor, 100%, massively important, yeah, and people say why does a head coach do that?
Speaker 1:That's what we pay him for.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, but you know it's to support the person to do the job as well as they can and did you find just having that person just took you out of whatever swirl you're in or the pressure you're in, or something like that Just help you get better focus about what was important.
Speaker 1:Like, yeah, same thing on the field, whether the players you know the players have got that much going on. What's next what's important? The same for the coach what's next what's important? Yeah, yeah, yeah, and you've just got to be thinking that. And when you've got all these other things like the general manager's told you something or whatever you know you lost a play you find out some player hasn't done the right thing. Yeah, you've got all that going in the background. That can trigger an emotional response. That's probably not the right response for the team.
Speaker 2:You might feel it's right for you, but it's not right for the team. Well, just in light of that, like one question I'd be really keen to ask you is around that Obviously you take a fair bit of heat in the media and things like that, more so than probably anybody else in this field, and I'm really intrigued to know how you absorb it or don't absorb it. Just knowing you a little bit, you seem like you have a water off a duck's back, it seems like. But I guess the question is how do you process people coming at you like that? Because I know when I get that sort of pressure, sometimes it becomes overwhelming. I have to actually step out. But you seem really good at being able to deal with it well, yeah, and seemingly to move on.
Speaker 1:But I just want to know does it sink a bit or you just got so used to it? There's a couple of things I always remember when I was young and my mother's Japanese and my father went and fought in the Vietnam War. So the RSL is supposed to come and cut your grass and help because you oh yes, and I remember they were supposed to come and cut our grass because we had quite a hilly place. And the RSL came and they took one look at my mother and said we're not cutting your grass. And I always remember my mother saying oh, we'll just have to do it then.
Speaker 1:No recrimination. You know, don't hold a grudge, just get on with it, you know, and she had a pretty tough life. So I think I've got a bit of that about me, but I've also. I can lose it at times, like I was disappointed. I lost it in Australia a bit. I allowed that to get to me too much. I was a bit disappointed with in Australia a bit. I allowed that to get to me too much. I was a bit disappointed with that.
Speaker 1:But generally speaking, I just try to ignore it, mate, and I don't read any sort of media. I've got no idea. I don't read any, and it's probably hurt me a little bit that I don't keep in touch with rugby media, but I've just decided, if I start reading it, it'll just put me in a space where it's not productive, and I really don't care. To be honest, like you know, all you can do as a coach is just do as well as you can. There's always going to be people who say, oh, that's not good enough, or he's done this or he's done that, but all you can do is just keep doing it, and if you keep coaching, you're obviously doing something.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, right, so that's all I worry about now. Yeah, that's fascinating, isn't it? Because like just that, how much, like I know, like I certainly feel in my thing, but like when you have a couple losses and people come at you and you start doubting and I'm actually doing the right thing.
Speaker 1:But like you, certainly, now I doubt all the time. Mate, like, like, I can tell you I like no, but I think you have to mate. I think, and I the one thing I've learned about having having met a number of successful people is they all doubt, mate, they all doubt. And I reckon that it's almost like what you need. You need to have those doubts to make you more focused, because that keeps you thinking right, am I thinking the right thing? But then you've got to decide to have a course of action. But I reckon you've got to be doubting all the time.
Speaker 1:I remember Nigel Ray at Saracens, one of the richest guys in England. I remember he said to me every day I wake up, I think I'm bankrupt. So how am I going to make money today? Every day I wake up I think I'm bankrupt. So how am I going to make money today? What am I going to do? And I reckon rugby's the same. You know I wake up this morning I'm thinking shit, I could have done that better. Like seriously, I wake up about 4.30, sweating, thinking about something in the week against England. I wish I would have done that better. But then I get up and I say, right, okay, done that. Yeah, let's have a think about that. What can we do, and then come up with an action plan.
Speaker 2:So that's basically. Do you think that's improved over time for you?
Speaker 1:just with timing. Well, not holding onto it, not letting it affect my behavior. I reckon definitely, mate definitely, and I reckon age does that to you. Yeah, I reckon that's one of the benefits of age. There's not too many others, but that's one of the benefits Tolerance of red wine.
Speaker 2:So when you set out a plan, I sort of had this around some of your leadership too. I think back to when, the way you stuck to your game plans I really enjoyed. I remember when you coached Suntory back then and you had just from other team watching, you had like the sort of policy where you ran everything no kicks, a goal, four main liners, that's what we roll and I always used to think like other coaches, look, they're just doing that, we know what we're going to do and you're stuck to it. Did you sort of have that policy?
Speaker 1:and just go. Well, I reckon that's the best part of coaching when you believe, really believe in a way you want to play and you really want to, you think you've got the players to do it and then you stick at it because everyone thinks they can get you right. Yeah, and I reckon that's the real joy. That's probably what I enjoy the most. Like with Japan now, like everyone's saying you can't play like that, Well, you probably can't, but let's see if we can. Yeah, like imagine going to the World Cup and playing. Like running the ball from everywhere and you knock off a couple of teams. Like then he creates this great opportunity for other people to do it.
Speaker 1:And I reckon you've got to believe in something. You've got to believe in a way to play and stick at that. And that doesn't mean it doesn't evolve over time. Like I remember with Suntory like the first year of Suntory we ran everything right. One, the Japan Cup, got beaten in the final. Next year we signed Farid Dupree, so we bought a kicking game, right. So then we had all-action running team plus the best kicking night.
Speaker 2:And then we and you didn't even have to go and fight.
Speaker 1:We became unbeatable. Then you know and that's how personal you look at South Africa right, south Africa, russie takes over. They kick the ball 50 times. They win the World Cup in 2009 by belligerence, just by being belligerent, tougher, harder. But now they've got a change of personnel. They've got some exciting back three players. They can counterattack as good as anyone in the world as anyone in the world. So now they've still got the same game, but now they've added on this extra layer to their game through different personnel coming in and now you've got like such a fantastic game. That's true.
Speaker 2:How do you deal with that? Like sticking to something that's not working, though, say, you didn't get to the finals and make it, and then people sort of folded arms going, we'll see if this works and it doesn't work. That's the pressure you're talking about the T-back test. The test is how much you believe personally.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, you know you've got to weigh things up and you've got. You know, sometimes the environment changes so you've got to make allowances to the environment. I remember coaching in that period around middle 2000s when it was like 90 kicks a game. I didn't enjoy coaching then.
Speaker 2:Oh really.
Speaker 1:No, because I was brought up at Randwick, right, you can see, you know you're looking out on Coogee Beach. We wanted to attack, we wanted to be the most all-action team in the world and that's how I want to play rugby. Like that's to me the game and that's the beauty of the game. Like, of course, you can win through kicking. We did a bit with England. You know I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't acknowledge that. But that's not the way I think the game should be played and you want to play the game how you want to play. It's like you know, in cricket.
Speaker 1:You know, australia turned around one day cricket, when they decided to target 300 runs, yeah, and everyone said, well, we can't do it. Then they get 300 and 300 becomes the norm. Now 400 is nearly the norm, right? So no one knows where the limit is and sometimes you've got to fail for that limit to be broken. And I reckon that's one of the best things about coaching and best thing about human endeavor trying to do what's impossible, what perceived to be impossible. Perceived correct. Perceived to be impossible.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love it. Now, Eddie, when we're talking about you, I'd like to ask this question of sort of your leadership. A lot of people are scared of you. Do you think there's an element of that in leadership which is actually a must-have to a degree? Certainly, as a father myself, I know that there's huge benefit is when Shad's voice comes on and the kids sit up and listen properly, because there's that little bit of fear around that. Do you think in leading teams of not just sport but anything, that needs to be an element of fear?
Speaker 1:I don't know whether fear is the right word. I think respect is probably a better word. I think you need to have respect and I think sometimes when you're seen as a really tough, disciplined person, that can come across as fear. But there's not too many people that operate well with fear and certainly I've never tried purposely to act as though I've got fear.
Speaker 2:Do you think it's just because your standards? You have high standards around expectations.
Speaker 1:I think that's the thing which is Well, that's the one thing you've got to stick at, mate. I think one of the problems in coaching at the moment there's a lot of coaching that's done without correction. The big thing about coaching and the best phrase I'm going to pinch this from a basketball guy, john Wooden. He says the best coaching is coaching without resentment. Right, so if I can correct you and you don't resent it, then we've got a massively positive relationship. Sometimes you can coach and correct and the player resents it for whatever reason. You haven't been able to phrase it right or it wasn't the right timing, there can be a number of reasons for that and you're always aiming to coach without resentment. So you're correcting the player, making the player get better, making the team get better, but sometimes you get a bit of resentment and you don't want that, but it happens because we're not perfect, and would you?
Speaker 2:say. That's the art you said. There's a lot of different things. Why that resentment? Could it be like they're pissed off about something else? And that's the art of understanding that individual. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I remember I had an England player. Every time I corrected him I could see his eyes rolling. He didn't want to know. I thought, oh, bugger, this, there's a better way. And he was an academic guy. So what I did was that when I saw something in his game, I'd give him the stats, I'd give him the videos. I said go away and look at it and then come back to me with what you think. And then he'd come back with the answers. He's a bright guy, so he could see it. So Beth's doing this, you're doing this, so-and-so's doing this, you're doing this. There's a gap there, so how are we going to fill that gap? He'd come back and tell me.
Speaker 1:So I reckon, over time you develop more ways to do it, whereas before you know, when you first started, when I first started coaching and certainly when I other coaches, if you weren't doing something right, someone would come and tell you straight away yeah, I can always remember at training, once with Bob Dwyer, like lying on the ground, and I remember him saying is there any chance you can get with a few more expletives, any chance you can get off the ground quicker? And that's 30 years ago. I can still remember that right and that stood with me the whole time. Every time I went to the ground I could hear him ringing in the head. But now you do that with a player, it's not necessarily going to have the same effect. Yeah, because then kids aren't educated like that now.
Speaker 2:Well, if you're doing society.
Speaker 1:Yeah, 100%. So therefore, you've got to find different ways of solving that problem and correcting that problem for the player.
Speaker 2:And that's the art of football. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that's where I reckon now and you're working at school now your way to connect to the players and get them to feel like they belong to something is so important. If you look at everything we do in life now, this is the one consistent thing they've got. Humans want to belong to something. That's why we're the superior race. You don't see chimpanzees flying jets and putting up skyscrapers or making nuclear bombs. Humans have been able to do it because they like to belong to something and work together. And at times now it seems like people don't want to do that, but they really do, and you've got to find a way to get them to do it.
Speaker 2:And and that would be a creative part of your brain working with them. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, just even look at it. If you want people to work together, right, and you've got them sitting in a room and I'm sitting behind you and the only thing I'm looking at is the back of your head, right, does that create a good relationship? But if I'm looking you in the eyes, I know exactly what you're thinking. I know exactly. You know I'm engaging you, so we're creating a belonging a potential belonging situation there?
Speaker 2:And what do you reckon if you had to put a weighting these days on value of VXs and O's, because like drills and skills versus this bigger picture stuff, this culture, this little environmental stuff, do you have a sort of ballpark where you would go these days and is that used?
Speaker 1:I was just thinking about what you're saying there. I don't know, but I reckon it's almost like can I just borrow your pen? That's your exercise. That might start the process of building your culture right. Or you might do it the other way that builds to it right. Or you might do it the other way that builds to it, but there, at some stage, this becomes the dominant thing, your culture.
Speaker 1:But it mightn't start like that. It might start with everyone getting on the same page because of the game and then from that you build your culture out. But for other teams it might be. You've got to be purposeful about starting your culture before you even get into this area. What?
Speaker 2:would be the example of teams that are just not harmonious at all, then you've got to hit that first and then work towards the skills.
Speaker 1:Well, I think, if their rugby identity is not clear, like I think you go down and play at Randwick, right, and you know you've got to, you got to run the ball right. You go and play at the Chiefs, you know you got to smack oh, I'm making a assertion, the assumption you got to smash at the breakdown, otherwise you're not playing right. Yes, okay, so that team has an identity. Like you know what you got to be good at, so they're. Those teams are easier than to to work on the culture because you've got that in place, whereas some teams you don't know what they're good at, right, and the players don't even know what they're good at, so they can't even get on the same page here. So I reckon you've got to find some sort of identity there first before you can do the more complicated stuff, because the culture is always more complicated than the X and O's. Yeah, because the culture's always more complicated than the X and O's yeah, because the X and O's don't change.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, no.
Speaker 1:Get up the field as quickly as you can, Stop the other mob getting up the field as quickly. But the way you do it, I reckon and I'm not, that's always intrigued me why it happens, Like I know with England. As I said, we concentrated a lot on that before we even went there. You concentrated on the skills before you went yeah, yeah, yeah, Whereas with Japan it was more about this Culture. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's fascinating, Because what did you feel like the skills were with the Japanese? They had the skills enough.
Speaker 1:Well, I feel there was a general buy-in to how we wanted to play. Yeah, that was the Japan way, but it's not now. It's not now. I'm going to have to read this is the thing I'm thinking about now what we're going to put our priority, because the thing is you can't do everything. You've got to wait things. It's almost like right, this is a priority, now, now, this is a priority, but we can't afford for that to be lost. So you're continually bouncing back and forwards between the two areas.
Speaker 2:And I got asked this the other day when I did a presentation on the importance of culture and you can't measure. But then I sort of equated it to the galaxy, where the stars are the skills and the drills, because you can measure that distance and you can see them shining, but the background is the culture and the environment. You can't measure it but you know it's there, and the drills, because you can measure that distance and you can see them shining, but the background is the culture and the environment. You can't measure it but you know it's there and the importance of that surrounds and makes the stars shine brighter. But then one of the people in the audience came up to me afterwards and goes well, how do you measure if what you're putting in place cultural-wise is actually working? Like, I need to know a measurement. And I found that difficult to answer because the whole thing around the environment and culture is it's almost impossible.
Speaker 1:You can gut feel it. Two things mate Go into a team meeting and see how much chatter there is before you walk in.
Speaker 1:Why do you say that If there's communication going on in the room, there's good banter, then I reckon you've got a chance of the culture being good there. And then you finish training. How many go off the field quickly, how many stay behind work, and how they work together, like I remember going to Penrith, right yes, and watching them train. They finish training and Nathan Cleary grabs all the halfbacks, starts kicking, starts practicing. Fisher Harrod grabs all the props, does ruck defense, ruck attack, and you could see, like no one's telling him to do it and they're just doing it, and you could see how strong the culture of that team is.
Speaker 1:And the culture of the team is how much the players own the team. It's not how much the coach drives the team, it's how the players of the team is how much the players own the team. It's not how much the coach drives the team, it's how the players own the team, because your responsibility as a coach is I'm not sure empower is the right word but it's to make yourself redundant, like the best teams are always the teams that run themselves and the coach is just pushing them in this direction, or slightly in this direction, because they can get off course quickly. You know, we know that or slightly in this direction, because they can get off course quickly. You know, we know that. But as soon as they start driving the team and all you're doing is pushing them, agitating, supporting them, sometimes challenge them, then you're in the right direction.
Speaker 2:And you can see that at Penrith. Yeah, so that still was. Those are great little cues aren't they?
Speaker 1:Yeah, or the good measurements, Good measurements, yeah, yeah and yeah same. In a team meeting mate, Find your most inattentive player, and when he starts banging his knees and starts twirling his head, it's time to finish the meeting. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yes, I understood. Oh, mate, that's awesome. Hey, lastly, I'd love to just get your thoughts. I really appreciate the time today. The other one around your leadership is your definition of success and whether I think we all know publicly what success looks like. Do you have any markers on privately what you hold yourself to? Are you separating that out?
Speaker 1:Definitely, when I was young, it was about winning mate.
Speaker 2:Definitely, definitely. So you would say failure yeah.
Speaker 1:And now it's about subjectively am I getting the most out of that team? And that's the only thing you can do Firstly, am I getting the most out of that team? And then, secondly, trying to appraise how good a job you're doing. Was there something I missed today? Was there an opportunity I missed coaching wise? And I try to do that at the end of every day sit down and think, right, did I miss a coaching opportunity?
Speaker 1:Because I reckon a coach is a bit like being a psychopath. Right, you're watching the room, you're trying to pick up what's going on, you're trying to pick up patterns, you're trying to look for relationships. You know, and you've got to be so observant in you, in in what you do, like Alex, we were lucky enough to meet Alex Ferguson a few times and he was saying, like, he had his office outside the car park, right, yes, so you saw a player come out and he's on his phone. He's still on his phone. He immediately right, he'd think there's something going on there. Right, he's either had a fight with his wife or something's wrong with his girlfriend. Yeah, and so he'd go down, and he might go down and have a chat to him straight away. You all right mate, mm-hmm, and so he'd go down and he might go down and have a chat to him straight away. You all right, mate. Yeah, and that was one thing I really picked up strongly from him how important observation is, and it's true.
Speaker 2:Observations like you said right at the start, whereas when people don't be watching, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:How they eat, who eats together, what they're eating, all those sort of things. Give you good indications, yeah, how they eat, who eats together, what they're eating, all those sort of things. Give you good indications, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, it's kind of a cool analogy around the psychopath. Is there a downside to that? You turn into the psychopath. I don't know?
Speaker 1:No, I don't think so. I hope not.
Speaker 2:Mate Awesome Like what I didn't want this to be is like a chat with you about rugby stuff, because it's I think everyone knows you're sort of rugby, like just that experiential stuff around some of these things. For me, what we're on key to sort of refine this is to take it into like is it gold nuggets? Like coaching without correction and coaching without our resentment. That's a chapter in a book somewhere, isn't it? Why that's? And then it's like how do you not like there's a goal? And I'm really cause I'm now going into education and all that kind of thing this stuff is not taught no other courses. I find them a waste of time because they're just teaching drills and the same path, which I understand.
Speaker 1:But these are this is good stuff Because I tell you, one of the probably the best experience I had for coaching was doing casual teaching. So when I first came out of uni, I casual teach for a year, right, and I went back to my old school, matchville High, which was rough as guts, mate, right. And I went back to my old school, matchfield High, which was rough as guts, mate, right. And by then, like when we grew up, I grew up with the Ellers and we didn't even know they were black, they didn't know you're white, like there just wasn't anything. And I went back to the school, the Aboriginal kids would sit in one corner, white kids sit in the other, and it was almost like this battle there.
Speaker 1:And as a casual teacher, you always had the bottom year, nine class, right, because that's when the teachers are away, right, they don't want to coach those kids. So you've got to try to find some way to work out, right, who's going to give me trouble? How am I going to keep them quiet and who's going to help me? I reckon, mate, for any coach that's the best way, because, same with a team mate like, yeah, who's going to help you, who's not going to help you?
Speaker 2:right, yeah, I've actually heard a number of well, a number of top coaches have actually had education.
Speaker 1:I reckon I didn't know Graham Henry that well, but a little I had to do with him, Like he was a good student of life. I reckon, yeah, and I think he was probably, from what I gather, early on a really strict disciplinarian, and then he learned right, we've got to change you.
Speaker 2:Eddie, I'll just mate I. I think we'll call it a day here because I appreciate you've got lots on. You're visiting mum tomorrow at 9. So I think that's lovely man. So really appreciate the time Pleasure mate.
Speaker 1:It was good fun mate, I enjoyed it. Good questions, mate.
Speaker 2:Thanks very much.
Speaker 1:Thanks, mate Good man Cheers. Thanks, mate Good man Cheers.
Speaker 2:Thanks, mate. It's been an absolute pleasure sitting down with Eddie Jones. Experience really is a great teacher and I always get loads of value from conversations like these. I'd like to share now my key takeaways from this conversation with Eddie Jones. Number one coaching without resentment. What an ideal to aspire to If you can offer tougher critiques and suggestions that players appreciate you're doing something right. Most players actually love clear guidance on how to improve. The art is to do it in a way that builds them up rather than tear them down. Number two the teabag test. I loved this phrase, much like Mike Tyson's famous quote everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth. Sometimes you simply don't know how things will unfold. So my suggestion is to be prepared to stumble, reflect, adjust and just keep moving. Try not to beat yourself up too much along the way. Number three walk the floors, move around the gym or your office water cooler and just watch how people interact. You can work out such a lot of things by just being present. We'll see you next time.