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Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Johan Ackermann: Faith-Driven Leadership and Team Unity
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Renowned rugby coach Johan Ackerman joins us to reveal the secret to building a successful team culture — one that emerges organically from the collective rather than being imposed from the top down. Through his experiences across the globe and his time in the police force, Johan explores how fostering a supportive environment where players contribute to the team's cultural fabric is key. Listen as he shares insights on balancing professional and personal relationships, especially when coaching his own son, and how these elements mold a cohesive and resilient team.
Discover how team-building activities like barbecues and shared games can transform team dynamics, break down barriers, and promote mutual respect. Johan explains the process of establishing core values within a team and how these principles can become the backbone of performance and accountability. His stories emphasize the importance of resilience, gratitude, and respect, urging players to define their own identities and motivations, which ultimately drives both personal and team success.
Johan's coaching philosophy also intertwines with his strong Christian faith, providing a deeper purpose and resilience in leadership. From navigating the challenges of uniting rival teams in Japan to harnessing the power of laughter and enjoyment during tense playoff weeks, Johan offers experiences that highlight the importance of positive coaching environments. This episode not only sheds light on the father-son dynamic in sports but also underscores Johan's dedication to investing in players' lives beyond the field, positioning him as a coach who truly prioritizes holistic development.
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If we didn't win the promotion negation. It's hard, it's tough, but it doesn't define me of who I am as a person. If he didn't enjoy his job, I failed as a coach. My command almost to call it is to say God, send me and I will try and make a difference in people's lives. I believe the biggest thing I can do is just speak from the heart and what I've learned, and hopefully there's something in there.
Speaker 2:Mate. Well, if your heart's anything to go by, johan, it's got to fill the room, mate, that's for sure. Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership in the world of rugby. I've been hearing and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today I'm sitting down with Johan Ackerman. Johan has got a team to success in Super Rugby with the Lions, the English Premiership with Gloucester and the Japanese Top League with the D-Rocks. He's now back in his homeland in South Africa, to an excited South African public. In our chat he'll share about how his faith shapes his coaching philosophy, what it's been like coaching his own son to the professional ranks and his time in the police force and how it's helped shape his coaching. We'll also hear about Johan's beautiful cultural perspective of the game. Enjoy. The first question that I ask and I love asking this is just how do you define culture and what are the key elements you believe that a thriving culture needs? What are the key?
Speaker 1:elements you believe that a thriving culture needs. That is a tough one, and I'll tell you why. Because, obviously, culture for each person is going to be something quite different and although we see culture as the environment, that's probably the biggest thing If you walk into a company and you walk into a school and you say what's the culture? And then they say, well, some attach it to history, some attach it to whatever the badges stand for, and it's been there for 100 years and et cetera. But for me, culture is almost the values of a system and because each unique team and each unique company, the first thing you see when you walk into a lot of big companies or into a change room is the values that they've put out there and that must drive your culture. So, ultimately, what values you're going to decide as a team room is the values that they've put out there and that must drive your culture. So, ultimately, what values you're going to decide as a team or as a leader, that's going to drive your culture. I believe you know.
Speaker 1:So if, yeah, and and all the teams I got involved in as from a coaching point of view, specifically as a head coach, rob I, that was probably one of the first things I tried to establish is what culture do we want to have? And, in brackets, what values do we want to have? And I like that to be not driven by me as the head coach and say to the team we're going to have honesty, we're going to have trust, we're going to have respect, we're going to have trust, we're going to have respect, we're going to have. I want that to come ultimately from the players. We can have our inputs we can have from a coaching point of view and from a medical point of view, we can contribute to that. So it's a collective thing. I've always taken every team to a camp. That's probably the first thing I look for is opportunity to take them away on a camp, and then it's a then what's the theory?
Speaker 2:what's the theory behind the camp?
Speaker 1:yeah, the camp is. There's two things. It's one to connect off the field and to learn each other as quickly as we can. So we will. You will have like a question.
Speaker 1:We call it a story time, you know, kind of introduction where each guy gets the opportunity to stand up and tell a bit more about himself. You know about family, about hobbies, about anything you're interested. Anything that we don't know about you you know, apart from everybody knows when a player walks in, we know that he played, for what school he played, we know for what, uh, you know in South Africa, what did he play for the Bulls Craven Week? Did he play? So that that everybody knows? But nobody knows. You know that he likes cars or he likes fishing or he likes hunting or he likes, uh, snowboarding or whatever. You know and nobody knows if he's got. You know about so and then. So that's so.
Speaker 1:The biggest part of the camp is connections, to know each other, to break down that original boundaries, because I feel that if you kick off with training, obviously you'll maybe have a week training before you can organize the camp, but if you just train, train, train, train, train, go into games, the time that we speak to each other is only in the change room showering, getting the car go back home In the gym, maybe a small chat go back and then I only connect with the one or two players. That locks. I only gym with the locks, I only talk to the odd prop, but I don't ever talk to the feedback or the wing or whatever.
Speaker 2:Just the people who your shoulders are touching in the scrum. That's all you're talking.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a good way to say it. And I feel on a camp, you know, when the players stand up and they hear there's a connection. I also like music, I also like movies. I also like music, I also like movies. I also like X, y and Z and suddenly those are the guys that start talking with each other. Every time, the moment that we break up that little huddle, you can see how the guys interact with each other. There's almost a more openness because suddenly that guy he's not shy to say my parents are divorced, my father has passed away, I'm my only child.
Speaker 1:I grew up in an orphanage home, so everybody respect that person already, what he's gone through and there's a bit of connections there. Some people are obviously not comfortable in speaking in front of other people, so you don't force it, but you want him to say something, even if it's something small, about himself. Some guys are very open about if they went through a tough time. You know, if a guy has gone through whatever situation, and that is obviously up to the individual. So that's the one part. The second part is then we put time aside to ask the players how do people, if they walk into this rugby team, what kind of culture do they want to experience? How do they perceive us? Are we humble people? Are we grateful people? Are we respectful people? And then that must come from them. So that's the values that I spoke earlier about, that they must decide and and and. In the beginning you maybe, in your, in your first session, there will be 10 values, but it's it's, it's not practical to to lift 10 values and and and to define values. Then we will. You know, there's a process, even if in my first year at the Lions, we actually brought a specialist in, you know, psychologist, in that helped us with putting that process in place. Of course, we started. We came back out of Super Rugby. We were kicked out of Super Rugby. We came back in with a new group, new players, and we established that values through a question and answer method and also through a voting method and ultimately we ended up with five values.
Speaker 1:But the values wasn't just a word on paper. The values had to be described underneath. How do you live respect? How do you live trust? Trust is when you get told you're not selected. Are you walking out and go talk behind the coach's back when you disagree, when you're not agreeing with the game plan. Are you telling the players you're not agreeing or is there trust that you stand up in the team meeting and say that, because that filters over to respect, you know. Are you trusting the game plan for this weekend or are you walking out and say that's not going to work? You know so. So it was literally described through everything Respect on greeting Look at the guy in the eye, shake his hand, greet him. You know, respond. When I send you a message, I bend. Do you understand this play? Don't ignore that. Respond by that. Say yes, I understand it. You know. And this play, don't ignore that. Respond by that. Say yes, I understand it.
Speaker 1:Ultimately it was simple values, but it was practical and the players then started to drive that, especially our leaders, our guys that were comfortable in speaking up and then obviously like by by example, on the field. So they were the guys working hard. They were the guys obviously leading through their actions on the field and then it became quite easy because the young boys just followed and, I must be honest, the effect was brilliant, because it's always tough to tell a player that he's not selected. It's never nice to hear that from a player's point of view, but you always felt that the players backed the decision. They believed why you've picked out that player, for what skill set he's got, why you're going to use him, and they were willing to wait for the opportunity.
Speaker 1:And then, when we get visitors Ben, let's say somebody from the sponsors or somebody that wanted to come and observe training I can't believe how many people came to me afterwards and say it's unbelievable how every player walked past him and come and greet him and look him in the eye and make me felt welcome. So for me, that is the culture you know, driven by your values and then your players living your values, not just a word on the wall. You have to define it, you have to define it, you have to make it practically. I'd rather have only two values and make it fully practical and applicable than having six values up there but nobody's living it. Nobody is accountable. If accountable is one of your values but nobody wants to stand up on Monday morning and say that's my tackle, I missed. What's the purpose of having accountability as a value?
Speaker 2:I love it and I love that phrase. You said you got the boys or the players to vote for the values. Is that something? Which you always. So you'll sort of like, you'll pin out sort of 10 or so that you think are appropriate and then you'll ask the players democracy, really, boys, tell me which ones you want to instill in this culture and you drive it. You drive what it looks like, sounds like, feels like all that stuff. That's what you do in pretty much all environments you roll into.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. And then quite an interesting thing we did. I never did it in the other, the D-Rocks, or at Gloucester, but at the Lions. We eventually ended up with a mantra of who are we as the Lions? And we said to ourselves that we are a team that thrives under pressure. We never will give up. The opposition will always get the best version of us and we believe that you know, at the heart of the pressure, the more we will respond. It was a five-sentence little mantra and the players had it on a little cart with them that they carried.
Speaker 1:And on a Monday morning one player will just stand up in front and he will just say it by heart, and then the next Monday morning somebody else will. It wasn't compulsory. We gave a one-minute window to say is there anybody that wants to say anything? Some players will stand up and tell a story about how grateful they are that their wife were in accident but they were not seriously injured. That's part of our values of being grateful. And then one will stand up we try to drive really the value of being grateful of what you've got and then we'll say one guy will stand up and say, no, he was fortunate that his father was sick, and then one will stand up and say the mantra, and then it became quite a habit. Every Monday somebody will say that, and then it becomes almost a belief that this is the team you're going to be, this team that thrives under pressure, a team that is willing to make it tough for the opponents, and that's what I wanted to say. So I think it's quite powerful if your culture is something that you can live and almost revisit to see. Are we living it practically? Because otherwise it's just a word on the wall and it's just a nice word and that's the reason why I want to mention that to you is the part that you said now of the voting is we made it quite clear In the beginning everybody has the opportunity to just throw what is important for them, but then what stands out for you, what do you think you can live to and what can you? And then they started to vote and ultimately it was a good tool for me, and I'll tell you why.
Speaker 1:Because sometimes it does influence selection. Sometimes the player doesn't show the character that you want, because you can see he's not training at his best, because he just heard he's not selected. Well, then you know again, has he got respect? Because one of the things that we said in respect is to make sure that you respect the things that we said in respect is to make sure that you respect the player that is selected and prepare him well.
Speaker 1:So the other thing that also helped me from a selection point of view is if we're going to be accountable and the guy misses his detail or he's not working as hard as he can on whatever facet of the game, then when he walks in the office I can just say to him listen, are you honest with yourself? Are you living the values of how we said we want to do? And then if he's open with himself and he looked at his game, he will say no, I wasn't. And then obviously, there is the skill stuff that you can point out if he missed tackles or haven't performed as well as he can. But it does give you quite a thing Without making him feel bad.
Speaker 1:It still helps you to say listen, this is a part of our values, this is what we want to establish as a team and at the moment you're just a little bit off on this and this area and that helps. So, yeah, so I mean for me to come back to your view. That's the first thing I try to always do is get off the field, action, going through a camp, try to connect, establish that values, and then something that I'm quite big on is to ask the players of who you are and why you're doing this Lava. You know if, if you, if you haven't got those two things, who are you and why are you doing this? For me that's a problem because ultimately you that will drive you as an individual and that will make sure that you live our values. Because if I have to motivate you daily, if I have to give you this massive end and give a Sunday team talk, on every match day, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if Grumpy Johan has to come out every day, every time that can't be nice.
Speaker 1:That can't be nice. It can't be nice and it can't be why you're doing it. You know, I don't care if you do it for your family, if you do it for yourself, if you do it for money, if you do it for your father that passed away, if you do it for your wife, whatever. But you have to have a why. And who are you? Because that who are you is so important, because you're going to get judged by people. You're going to get your highs, your lows. You're going to be selected, not selected. That's when your character is going to be tested, of who you are. And are you then a guy that can lift that values? So who are you?
Speaker 1:When the door closed and you look yourself in the mirror, and that two things I'm quite hard at as a coach, because for me, if you get out of bed and you have to expect a hard training and you don't know why you're doing it, then it can't be enjoyable. How do you train? How do you train if you don't know why you're doing it? Then it can't be enjoyable. How do you train? How do you train if you don't know why you're doing it? Then, rather, stay in the bed or rather go work for Mercedes or for Kentucky Fried Chicken or you know, go do something.
Speaker 2:Mate, I think Mercedes would be better than Kentucky Fried, just as a general yeah.
Speaker 1:But I mean you have to know why you're doing it. You know, I say to them it's writing your own movie. You know you're the director of the movie and you must have a movie to direct, otherwise where do you go?
Speaker 2:That's right, mate, and mate, to be honest, around that phrase, like the director of the movie, I kind of see you and your teams that you're the first director, you're the executive director, but, mate, just some of the stuff that stuck out. You mentioned about how the sponsor was so enthralled and in love with the team because the player shook his hand, looked him in the eye, all that things, and I think for me that's the feedback from whether your culture is growing strong is whether the byproducts are your fans and your sponsors love the team, they love you and, to be honest, mate, I think you do that really well in everywhere you've been. When you left the Lions, I remember a quote from the reporter was I feel sorry for the coach that has to replace you, and I know big Jim Hamilton said I am gutted he's leaving when you left Gloucester. So what you do, mate, I feel like you're the chief director in the cultures that you're in and everyone that seems to be part of your team seems to really enjoy themselves in your environment.
Speaker 2:Is enjoyment something that's big for you? Because a quote here that you said about Gloucester is and I believe it's every team is. You said it's about people and that was one of your first quotes when you did an interview with the Gloucester Press and I really, if that's one of the first things you're saying, I think it's really representative of you as a coach. And is it about people? Is it about having fun and making memories and enjoying things first? Is that a big part of your philosophy?
Speaker 1:No, definitely Ben. Yeah, I think there's a lot of things that go through my mind when you said that, because obviously, for me, I always loved people and I cared for people as a person. So for me, we were speaking about culture, but also probably about why I said those things in the media. For me, to come back to that, why is the players must understand, when they play for a team, or specifically the team that one is involved in, they've got the opportunity to interact with people, they've got the opportunity to make a difference in people's life, and that is why it's important for me, because I've made the mistake as a player, where you get the opportunity to go to a function because the, you know, the, the team has got this function, and then you go and you stand in the corner and you and you grumpy because you don't want to be there, you're tired, you've just had a hard training, you just want to get back home, yeah, and the crazy thing is, is you, you're so short sighted that you don't realize that in five or ten years from now, your career is finished and the first guy that you could have had a connection with is that guy who's standing in that room, who's in business and if you were just willing to be friendly, to greet, to talk to him, to shake his hand, to build up a relationship. He's the one guy that can open a door for you and can look after you, and you can never underestimate who it is in life. It can be anybody, it can be, you know, and that's the lesson I've learned and that I regret, as a player, where you didn't interact every time with people like you should have, and that's what I try to teach the players now is to say every time you put on the jersey, you get a time to make a difference in a supporter's life. Every time you walk off the field and you walk past somebody or you walk into a building, you get the opportunity to interact and to make a difference. If it's the lady that cleans the foyer or the CEO that sits at the back of his big desk, it doesn't matter. It's how do you treat that people and how do you interact with them, because that's the people that makes a difference in your organization.
Speaker 1:Nobody asks the kit manager to make up the change room, but he does it because he loves it and he helps you as a player, and I think that is why it is about people, but saying that is as a team, I like the players to have fun, you know, I like them to interact with each other, to be, you know, again, a part of the camp is to have a barbecue, to stand and have a beer together, to have fun with each other. Again, a part of the camp is to have a barbecue, to stand and have a beer together, to have fun with each other, to laugh, to play games together, to organise. I like to surprise the players, especially in pre-season times where we train hard and when they come off the field there's a few cooler boxes with beers and cold drinks and a bit of meat on the braai and stuff like that Actual fact. You won't believe it now, but I'm going to tell you now, rob, but the quarterfinals of 2016,.
Speaker 1:I think we actually didn't train on the Monday. We just had a big party on the Monday, you know. So the players obviously expected a massive training because it's playoff week. And then I walked into the meeting room and then we had cooler boxes packed out for them with snacks and beers and cold drinks and everything.
Speaker 2:Mate, no wonder you're leaving such a popular character from every club you go to. It's because you're putting on beers on a Monday at lunchtime.
Speaker 1:I was struggling with Japan. They didn't want to allow me. Well, mate, I heard another one.
Speaker 2:I think about the quarterfinal too. One of your coaches said this that same year we played cricket on the pitch before a game and a game of red arse for activation, which sounds the pitch before a game, and a game of red ass for activation, which sounds hilarious before a game.
Speaker 1:That was also a big thing. Every captain and stuff, no, but I mean I like to banter with the players and make jokes and just give it a. You know, when we're on the field we work hard, like any team, I believe. But off the field and and sometimes even on the field, you know, there is a time for for humor and laughter and and.
Speaker 1:And the one thing I always said to myself, um, when I came into coaching, is that you know, if I walk away from an organization or a place, I want people to say you know, I've always been treated well by him and it was a fun environment to be in. It was a nice environment. You know, I had the opportunity to be myself, you know, and I think so ultimately. I heard this from Laurie Mains when he was my coach. I asked him one day I said what's the toughest thing from a coaching point of view? And he said the toughest thing for a coach is to create the environment for a player to perform in, and if you can get that right, then you're on the right track.
Speaker 1:So that was always my aim it stuck with me as a player I still played for five, six years. But it always stuck with me to say and I never knew I'm going to be a coach. You know the coaching thing. That's maybe a story for the other day how I became a coach, but the moment I became a coach I remember that verse is to create an environment to be able to perform in. That is the challenge.
Speaker 2:That's fascinating too, and you certainly prefer, like Laurie was a good one for that. I have some stories about him myself because I was coached by him as well. But creating that environment, that's the real art of coaching, isn't it? And environment's really just another definition of culture, isn't it? It's the same sort of thing. But certainly, mate, you leave a lot of, you have a lot of cheerleaders everywhere you go around the culture that you create, which is super cool, mate.
Speaker 2:But I guess one of the questions which is interesting now, around the environment that you create, you've had some really unique experiences coming from South Africa to the UK, to then Japan, and I want to you know like there's three very distinct cultures there. But even more so when you got to Japan, you joined a team which then merged with another team to create the D-ROX, and those two teams were rivals of the same company, and so not only have you got to merge a team, but you've got to merge a team in a foreign language with a whole different set of cultural norms and expectations. How did you even begin to start? Where to merge those two teams, culturally and environment-wise?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, ben, that was a big challenge, obviously, because, like you said, it wasn't just two teams that had a happy, uh history, but it was, uh, the the fact that it was two different companies that will actually, you know, even though they were probably run by the same company, they was the very big enemies in the company itself. And and then the fact that we walked in, when we walked in there, that August of 2022, the Shining Arcs were still branded in Shining Arcs, everything was still branded in the old team.
Speaker 2:Oh, they were still wearing the old kit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, old kit and everything. So our first training, the players were mixed and matched with kit and so that made it even different. It's fine if you create a new team but you walk into a facility that is branded into the new name and you'll get your new kit or immediately give you some form of identity. You know but it wasn't this case that obviously this decision was made so quickly that they didn't have time to rebrand the facility and the building and the kit and everything. So I was just honest, to be fair, you know, I was just honest that we are in a tough situation. You know, I believe that there's no soft way to say this. You know, I said to them maybe none of you wanted this, maybe none of you like this idea, the fact that you've been selected means you've been appointed as, let's say, half of the group from Osaka, half of the group. That's the first thing, that shows there's something in you.
Speaker 1:The second thing is we can't change the past. We can only control the future. And what we can control and that is for us to become a team. And the only way we can become a team is if we have that, and then the whole process we actually discussed now kicked off. We must establish values. We must establish the culture. What are we going to stand for as a team? How are we going to drive this team? We I shared with them my philosophy that you know I'm a coach that loves fun, but when we're on the field we're going to work hard, we're going to. We're going to obviously train well and and and try and train at intensity. And then we did, actually, I think, three or four camps that first year. So we did a lot of the earlier stuff we spoke about. We had good fun off the field to connect and also establish that values and that values is up on the wall and that values has been.
Speaker 1:We redefined it a little bit in the second year because it was much easier, because when we came back in year two that last year now in 23 over to 24, we, when we came back, it just felt different. Everybody were handshaking, high-fiving, hugging each other. We were all in the same clothes. That you know. It's 12 months later, but it's a total different environment. There's a culture, there's a belief.
Speaker 1:There was obviously disappointment when we lost that promotion and legation, but it was the best thing that could have happened with us because the team, in my view, wasn't ready. Yes, we won, but our first test was the promotion negation to experience pressure. It was the first game that we also were behind half-time. Obviously, in the second division we were not tested. We had to experience that as a team, that was the box that we lacked testing our culture, testing our mental strength. And once we experienced that, when we lost the promotion game, I told the guys that we will win the following year. I just knew it. But we needed to go through that experience of having a tough day, that things don't work for you, you know, because we could have turned the whole building the team in that first year, even though you talk about mental toughness and you try to put them in that scenarios.
Speaker 1:But on Saturday they run 30 points in the first half and then they take their foot off the gas. Yeah, I can't tell you, ben, it's going to be hard, but you don't experience hard times, you know. And so that was my biggest concern. I've said to the coaches the whole time that that's. The one thing I'm worried is that Contessu plays at a high intensity. Yes, they maybe don't win every game, but they play at a high intensity and they understand what pressure is and we've got good players that can beat them. But do we understand what a one-point game is or a two-point game is? You know, and that obviously came through. But then we fixed it, you know, to be fair, the players matured from that. They learned from that lessons and the good thing is we played Contexu again and then we could have almost had that experience in the back of our minds and the players were much more composed. So to come you know there's so much into that question, but to come back to that is it was tough. I won't lie to you, because even under the staff members, the marketing guys were mixed. They were fighting with each other the first six months Unbelievable fights. Okay, the medical staff were fighting with each other.
Speaker 1:My energy went in so much off the field stuff to get unity into that. For example, you had to challenge the players constantly on. If one of our values is respect and under respect is team first, why do you, when I select a team, why do you say I only select Docomo players? Why do that? Gossip is in the passages that I only select Docomo players. Why don't you come to me and ask why you're not selected. Is that not part of respect? So I had to challenge the players constantly on that culture and then last year we didn't have it. I didn't have to worry about players who's not selected.
Speaker 1:They came straight to me and asked me the questions. There was no, no, you only pick Documa players. And that's the stuff I had to break down. One thing I said to them I can't guarantee you that anything in life. I can't. I'm not God, I can't guarantee anything in life. But what I can guarantee you is that I'll never not select you because of who you played for or what you are, or I'll be honest with you. So you know.
Speaker 1:So I try to be brutally honest about. I'm not going to be bind to the fact that I coached Docomo for two years and now I see Docomo players first and then I see them. For me, you know, the best player must wear the jersey, regardless of your background, your size, whoever you are, and I made that quite clear to them. And then I said to them then it's in your hands how your character is going to be shown, how you're going to treat training, how you're going to live out our values and so on. But I must be honest with you every camp that year I could feel the players coming closer and closer and closer together and ultimately I think we were a good enough team, culturally wise, to win the promotion games. But practically we just were not ready and we had to go through that and that's why you know year two was much better. Yeah, mate it why you know year two was much better.
Speaker 2:Yeah, mate, it is a fascinating place, isn't it? And it's like a little experiment, particularly for foreign coaches to come and try to piece all the puzzle pieces together without that knowledge of the history and the education that's gone deep underneath right.
Speaker 1:And also the challenging thing in Japan is, you know you have to work through the translator, yes, and you will know now, better than anything, that the translator told me. You know, when he translates there's so many words he can use that sometimes you lose probably a little bit of the punchline of what you want to say in some aspects, unless he gets it 100% the words you want to use. And also that one-on-one relationships. It was much stronger in Gloucester and in the Lions and I'm not hiding around it and in the Lions and I'm not, you know, hiding around it that when you call in a Japanese player to speak to him a bit more one-on-one, you know it still goes through the translator. There's still a moment that you lose eye contact because he's looking at the translator and you're looking at the translator.
Speaker 1:And that was the tough part. Because tough part because to win somebody's confidence, I feel you have to have that one-on-one relationship and that's the tough thing to get that trust from the Japanese players. Even though you're not alone with him in a room, you're always with somebody in the room. And that was the part that I really tried to say to them please come, let's be open with each other talk to us. Obviously, you didn't get it right with everybody, but some eventually started to engage a bit more, even though it's through the translator. But there's still a lot of players that obviously didn't. You didn't have the relationship you wished you could have had.
Speaker 2:Mate, it really is like you have to work on every other side of your communication, don't you? Your body language, your symbols and your gestures, and how you hold your face and things Even like your sentiment, the way someone looks at you. You have to be better at not showing emotion as much or not being vague with your, your symbols and yeah I think, then, simple things you're planning.
Speaker 1:You know, if there's, if your defense coach want to speak, your attack coach want to speak, then suddenly there's only like five minutes left for you as head coach. And what are you going to say in that five minutes? So it makes you actually think about your message that you want to give and to be accurate, and sometimes do you really want to say something or just want to say something for the sake of it. So Japan really makes you think about your meetings and how you structure your meetings.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, mate, when I first weighed up the option of going to Japan, a very close friend of mine, who's long time coach, said it is the best place to go in terms of having time to just grow the craft of coaching, because you have to use stuff which you never have to use in any other place. You have to go because you can't talk, you have to take that off the table and coach without talking. In a lot of ways it's it's a lovely place to learn, grow and it's a place where I recommend any aspiring coach goes to to learn the art of coaching.
Speaker 1:And I mean, yes, sorry, let's go, no, mate.
Speaker 2:I've got a couple of questions. I'm really keen about you now, mate, because I just enjoy the way you are as a leader and I want to just get a lot of understanding of what makes you tick. And one of the big things about you is your strong Christian faith and I'd love to know, with that side of things, because not all coaches have such a strong faith how does it guide your coaching and your leadership style and and how does it set you up to handle things both good and bad, in your coaching?
Speaker 1:to admit that we are emotionally involved into the game and if we lose, you lose these emotional things that you know you go through, and then we are um, also um, you know, a big part of that is is when it comes to contract and contract renewal etc. And there's there's this uncertainty and and that's why I think the biggest thing for me in my Christian faith is to give me peace about, either through the results, that there's a bigger picture than just the results, and also that if there's opportunity opening up that opportunity, there's purpose why it's opening up. It's maybe not in the place that you thought it's going to be, it's not in the, at the team, but you know, part of your, your journey with God is to to make a difference in people's life. So for me, it gives me purpose. It gives me a reason why I get up out of bed. A reason why I get up out of bed, it gives me a reason why I want to treat people with respect. That's what it gives me. It gives me opportunity to invest in people's life. That's how we all want to win. But ultimately, for me, you know I, you know we all want to win, but ultimately, you know, for me, my, my command almost to call it is to say God, send me and I will try and make difference in people's lives and, and, and that. That is that is ultimately the, the, the, the, the piece that it gives me, because that if we didn't win the promotion negation, it's hard, it's tough, but it doesn't define me of who I am as a person.
Speaker 1:What defines me as a person is what does Ben say that played under me? What does Ben say as my assistant coach? How did he experience me in that year? What is his thoughts over me? Because, ultimately, if I treated him badly, if I disrespected him, if he didn't enjoy his job, I failed as a coach. And for me that is what my faith is is that it's not about winning and losing. For me, it's about God's purpose for my life and a big part of that is I've got.
Speaker 1:I felt the things that I went through as a player and now I've got the opportunity. I've always asked God why did I? Why did that happen to me? And the moment I got the coaching job, it was clear to me now it's time to invest back into people's life and all the questions you had, you can answer that now through them. So that is why were I not selected after the Springbok test and for four tests?
Speaker 1:Never been told why? Why did I get injured? I always had these questions of why did this happen to me? But now, for 14 years as a coach, I had players that had gone through the same things and they come and sit in my office and I ask those questions and suddenly I can share with them and I can encourage them and I've got empathy with them. I understand their situation and that's why nothing happens without a reason. In that situation we sometimes have a lot of questions, but ultimately God's plan for your life is perfect and we don't always see that. Only two years later you say, oh shit, that's the reason why I didn't go to that place.
Speaker 1:This is the reason why I went to this place and whatever. So it gives me a lot of peace. Basically, and from an emotional point of view, results wise. I don't say I don't care about losing, I'm a bad loser. So I don't say even if we played Uno game cards, I don't want to lose.
Speaker 2:You're a card thrower, I know you just like that. I'm out. I'm not playing anymore.
Speaker 1:Not that bad, but I get nasty, you cheat, I get aggressive, but not that bad.
Speaker 1:But no, I mean, I'm competitive, I've always been competitive, but ultimately what I mean with it gives me peace is that you know we control everything, but ultimately, you know, if things, certain things, unfortunately, if it doesn't happen, what does it?
Speaker 1:What's your reaction to that? You know, and if I have to, if I have to treat people only when I feel good well, and I have to treat people only when I feel good well, and I have to feel good about myself, only when the media writes well about me or when social media, then I'm never going to be happy, I'm never going only be at peace when I know what my purpose is and that, and that is like I said, that god's got a plan for my life and, and my biggest uh, in my view, is to obviously testify about his goodness, but also to to treat people and to learn them the lessons that I've I've I've learned in my life oh man, I think it's a wonderful way to ground yourself and just have that bigger perspective, because I think you need it and I think a lot of coaches certainly the professional area you get swept away in the results and the scoreboard and if you want to lose trophies and you can get in a swirl which is very hard to get out of.
Speaker 2:Sometimes it's harder to see that bigger perspective. And I think a lot, a lot of experienced coaches talk about the value of having a mentor, but obviously what you're saying is you've got the, the best mentor of all, the biggest, highest mentor. That just keeps that bigger picture. I think it's. I think it's fascinating, mate, and it's, it's a cool thing and it's something which I think, yeah, it could be, could be a new thing that becomes part of a spiritual side of coaching. Now, mate with this as well, just on your background. So you've got that strong Christian faith, but you also had a little bit of upbringing with a little police work before the game went professional, and I'm always intrigued about that sort of dynamic to leadership as well, because policing is a very sort of practical um. It's very much like coaching. There's a there's a big practical component to it, but there's also some real empathy and communication and reading situations. Did you pick up much from your work in the, when you're working in police before the game went professional?
Speaker 1:yeah, I think, you see, I mean I think it, I you see, I don't think I actually realise it, but when I think back to it, and I had to go to, let's say, a very good business leader and we had to dissect this, I think the police probably grounded me and and and molded me, uh, as a coach and and almost, you know it's funny enough a lot of the, the professional coaches, um, maybe especially my, my age stuff were either teachers or policemen, you know, um. So I think the fact if you had a background where you had some form of education, where you had to teach something or work in a team environment, I think it really helped. So in my case, I was obviously in the police, and what you learn in the police is that you have to trust people around you and you have to work with people around you. Otherwise, whatever situation you're in, it's you have to work with people around you, otherwise, whatever situation you're going to come in is not going to work. You know it's not about the size of the player, it's not about, it's about just heart. You know it's about people working hard and working together. Um, that's when you do your training in the police, that's when you do some assignment as a, as a group of policemen together, you you can seldomly do anything on your own, but what it teaches, what the police teach me, is that's why I've always had it. Even at school I always had a.
Speaker 1:You know, I don't know if it was because I was obviously a little bit bigger than everybody, but I always cared for people around me and I wanted to protect people, and the police almost just nurtured that even more. So it really almost gave me a sense of I want everybody around me to feel that they looked after and that they are valued. And I think you know, because then you get the best out of people when they feel valued and they feel that you trust them. I'm not standing over you and tell you what to do the whole time. I let you do your thing, but ultimately I'm there to help you, I'm there to support you, and that's what the bliss is all about. You've got your little piece of the puzzle to get through this, let's say, to this objective, but there's a captain or there's a sergeant that's in control that you can go to. He is there to help you, but he does give you that trust that you can do the job and ultimately when I went, I became one of the instructors in the college where the police guys come for their training and that gave me the ability to learn how to take the module and to teach the module for the young students. So that probably helped me from becoming comfortable in talking up front.
Speaker 1:I'm not the best speaker, I'm not saying I'm a comfortable speaker, but I'm saying it. I think if I haven't that background I would have struggled as a coach, you know, because it did give me some form of education in how to speak, how to prepare to speak and what you. Ultimately, what do you want to achieve after your 30 minutes? What's the outcome that you want to achieve? So that helped me. But I think the biggest thing that I can relate to, rappi, is that a team only works as well as the people that can trust in that system. So if you look at coaching, if I can't trust my assistant coaches, if I have to worry if they can do the job, or if I have to worry if they're going to talk about my back, about something, then you're walking on sinking sand. And I think it's the same for the players' relationship with the coaches and the coaches to the players. It's all about trust, and that's probably the big thing that the police learned me is that you can only be successful if you trust people around you.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, and the other one mate around that, around the people around you, is like you had a really interesting one as well in that your son is a professional player at Gloucester still and I always find that dynamic interesting between your coach, like it's a very unusual situation where your son's part of the team which you're coaching at a professional level and then you're going home and living together for a period of that time in the same roof. That's a very different dynamic to most father-son relationships and professional coach-player relationships. And how has your parenting journey and coaching journey become intertwined for you as a leader, as well as your police and your Christian faith aspect?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, obviously it was great for me to be part of his rapid journey because it gave me a hands-on early in his career. He came out of school to the Lions and then, you know, he started to play for us at super rapid level and it gave me a hands-on to on to invest and to develop into his playing career, you know. So that was the big positive. The challenge for us was how do we find that common ground between coaching him but not over coaching him, in the sense that now it becomes a thing where we never have the father-son relationship.
Speaker 2:It's always just coaching, coaching, coaching. Is it ever compromised, like, do you ever have to pull yourself back because you're like that's too much?
Speaker 1:In the beginning. In the beginning we had to unfortunately go through that first one or two headbutt moments where it was too much, where you get from training and then we start talking about training and we start. So we actually made some boundaries and some ground rules of we're not going to talk about the rugby side once we're done at the Lions and we get back home. We're not going to talk about it unless he asks the question. I'm not going to be the one talking about it. I'm not going to call him and say, listen, today at training you did this, this and this. If he comes, if I don't do it at the, the arrangement was, if I don't do it at the stadium, if I don't because Ben I, if I don't do it at the stadium, if I don't because Ben I made it. You know, in the beginning, obviously, yeah, in South Africa everybody said, yeah, he's getting picked because he's my son, et cetera, et cetera. And then eventually, you know, he started to perform really well and it started to go away a bit. And then, you know, at Gloucester we went together. There was still again one or two comments yeah, he's just gone there because of my son, and that's probably the biggest thing why I'm glad when I left that he stayed and he proved himself. You know, it's just to almost nail that thing down and say, okay, he can do it on his own. But saying that, so we had to make.
Speaker 1:I had to make it quite clear to him when he set his foot at the Lions that I can only evaluate him under the same value system, under the same training selection policy. What must a back rower have that we go through with every player? I can't even have a half an inch because the moment I pick him there's just a 1% gray. I didn't pick Ben, I picked you. They're going to say it's because you're my son. So he actually had to prove himself more. I never told him that, but when we sat in coach's selection, it wasn't me that pushed for him to make his debut in Super Cup, it was Swayze and jp, the assistant coaches. They said you hard on him, he deserves his position and and stuff.
Speaker 1:So so, yeah, so we had to make that boundaries, that when we are we going to talk about the game and when are we just going to be father and son? Um, at home? You know, and, and and and. Credit to him. He, he handled it well and um and yeah, and and we dealt with it. You know, and credit to him, he handled it well and yeah, and we dealt with it. You know, we really make sure that when we're off the field, we make sure that we talk to the people around us the same as we would have talked about with any other family commitment. Is it mine or is it your signal?
Speaker 2:Oh no, we're back.
Speaker 1:We're back.
Speaker 2:You're getting super passionate, Johan, so all the wiring starts fusing in no.
Speaker 1:so we made it quite clear once we get out of the stadium, then we have to treat the people around us as a family environment, you know, and not as a rappy environment where we talk rappy, rappy, rappy between him and myself the whole time.
Speaker 2:Mate. It must be really cool because it's a very unique situation, isn't it? I probably test your bigger picture stuff as well, like the balance between you want your son to do well, but then you also want to make sure there's no undue influence there. It's awesome.
Speaker 1:I think. To come back to your other question about our faith, I think that helps as well because ultimately I'm going to love him as my son, regardless of his performance on the field. You know I have to treat him fair towards other players, but I'm going to love him regardless of his performance. And what I mean is that you know if he's not selected it doesn't change the fact that he's my son. You know I'm not going to then suddenly treat him different and be upset with him and not talk to him because you're disappointing me. It's not the Rappi that makes me love him or the Rappi that makes me be proud of him. It's the fact that he's my son and that's not going to change. So I think that helps him to understand that when I don't select him, or I do tell him.
Speaker 1:I think this area needs work on. It comes from a heart of a coach, but also as a fatherly advice, and it's up to you. If you're going to improve that area, then obviously it's going to improve you as a player and just because I'm your coach, it gives you a chance to be selected. But remember you have to be better than the player that are currently selected, so that criteria is never going to change, regardless of my love for you.
Speaker 2:Johan, your words are outstanding. It's lifting me up, man. It's just refreshing to hear such words like love and beautiful times and father-son in a rugby culture context. So, mate, it's testament to you that you're speaking that way about your boy. It's super cool Just in light of that, man.
Speaker 2:Just talking about cool quotes, here's another quote from you, which we'll probably sign off sometime soon here. I heard this from you on an Instagram post, Johan. You wrote what a beautiful morning to wake up to and what a privilege it is to have air in our lungs. You posted that a while back and I thought well, that is a lovely statement and for me, that shows a whole lot about you as a man, my friend, and with that lovely quote in mind, I think we'll call it a day here, mate, because that is bang on an hour and I don't want to take up any more of your precious time, and I appreciate you're back in South Africa now and you're back in the homeland, the motherland, and how has it been? Are you looking forward to the next journey of the homecoming of sorts?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, ben, I can only control. I don't even control it, I can only, you know, look forward to what I know is in place and that is the next six months where I'm going to be involved with the junior box as a consultant, and you know it's a great. I'm very excited. You know One. Obviously it's nice to be back in my home country and experience, you know, the passionate supporters and the year and the culture of the RAPIA.
Speaker 1:So that's great to just feel that again in the air. And then, second of all, you know, like I said earlier, I feel coaching is a calling. You know there's a purpose why we coach us, and what better ground than a 19, 20-year-old kid who's on the verge of his dream? You know he's living like you can just think when we, a 19, 20-year-old kid who's on the verge of his dream he's living. You can just think when we were 19, 20, how much dreams we had and how we all saw where we're going to play. But unfortunately a lot of them now has to realise it's going to take a lot of hard work and I'm so glad I've got this small little part now to play on that journey for them. The first step to play for the under-20s and then hopefully for their careers going forward.
Speaker 2:Well, mate, you're certainly the man to push those guys off from the shore with the best possible momentum, and I know from all your environments they will come away fizzing at the thought of playing with and around you and for you. You've got a wonderful crew, mate, and you, as a coach, go very well. So thank you, mate. Thank you for your time. As always, it's been a pleasure and I look forward to catching up in the future.
Speaker 1:I appreciate that. It's great to talk to you. Thank you very much. I enjoyed it, really enjoyed it.
Speaker 2:Here are my three final takeaways from a conversation with Johan. Number one vote for values. Loved the way Johan came up with the ideas for the values, for the team made a big pot but then got the players to vote for the values which they wanted to adhere to. He then asked them to make it some symbols around what that looks like, what that sounds like and what that feels like every day. And when players did that it definitely had a compounding effect when sponsors and fans saw the team and saw they were living their values.
Speaker 2:Number two the pre-season camp. A lot of rugby teams do a camp, but largely it's around skills and drills. Johan's take on it is that this is the time for off-field action. This is a time to learn each other as quickly as you can, and a lot of the things he does on camp is all about team building for the cultural aspect. Number three invest in people's lives. With his own personal faith and his journey with God, that's become a mantra of Johan's about. He's not just a rugby coach, he's not just there to get a paycheck. He's there to invest in people's lives, and that's a lovely outlook for a coach to take and one you'd be proud to send your sons and daughters to Until next time. Stay safe, thank you.