Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Paul Tito: Keeping things simple, and the art of confrontations.
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Rugby enthusiasts and culture aficionados alike, prepare for a fascinating conversation with Paul Tito, affectionately known in the rugby world as "Fish." A seasoned veteran whose career spans over 25 years, Paul shares his journey from New Plymouth Boys High School to captaining renowned teams like the New Zealand Maori and Cardiff. Discover how his transition from player to coach has been fueled by a commitment to fostering team culture and leadership. With his trademark honesty and humor, Paul offers insights into the challenges faced by structured rugby nations and the enduring importance of camaraderie and genuine connections, even in the age of professionalization.
In a world where technical prowess often overshadows human connection, Paul reminds us of the powerful role mentors play in shaping a player's ethos. Through stories of pivotal influences like Andy Slater and Kevin Barrett, Paul sheds light on his decision to remain loyal to his province, becoming a centurion and championing the essence of team spirit. Through humorous anecdotes and candid reflections, Paul highlights how empowering players and encouraging open communication can lead to seamless team dynamics. Embrace the lessons learned from diverse coaching experiences, from France to the All Blacks, and the art of reading the room to bridge cultural divides.
From navigating tough decisions in France to embodying authenticity in high-pressure environments, Paul offers a masterclass in resilience and adaptability. His journey, marked by personal sacrifices and a supportive family, underscores the courage required to thrive beyond the mainstream. Tune in for an episode that celebrates the power of unity, accountability, and the often underappreciated art of listening in sports leadership.
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Mate, you look like an orange ruffy, but that's actually too long, so your nickname is going to be Fish. I marched upstairs and got the head coach and I said you need to go and sort that out, because this is not how we work in this place. Actually, in the schedule, where's the bit for team culture? There's been this stigma around that the Blues culture hasn't been great. You know, we're a very over-structured rugby nation that was built up on not wanting to let your mate down on defence and working bloody hard for him.
Speaker 2:Tara and Aki 100 games, no tries, which is incredible stuff.
Speaker 1:Come on, Benjamin.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's episode features Paul Tito. Paul has had an impressive, amazing career in rugby spanning about 25 years. He played for New Zealand Under-19s, new Zealand 21s, new Zealand Maori, before going to the Chiefs Taranaki, hurricanes and Cardiff. In those last three he almost played centuries for each of those teams. He's been captain for nearly all the teams he's played for. He retired in 2012 and took up a coaching career which is just as varied as his playing career Taranaki, poe, western Force, georgia and Wellington. Currently, he is the forwards coach of the Super Rugby champions. He is a man that always tells it like it is. He is no nonsense, honest and also deeply humorous. He knows the game inside out and we affectionately call him Fish. Here he is Okay, mate, righto Fish finger Mate. What a pleasure to have you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's my first one I've ever done of these your first podcast you've ever done. Well, I actually don't listen. Hey, you know me, mate, I'm a bit odd. I've never really listened to many podcasts. Yes, I've read your book and not too many others, yeah.
Speaker 2:Mate, how'd you find it? What your book?
Speaker 1:Yeah, pretty tough going. To be honest, was that a surprise?
Speaker 2:mate, tell her how it really is gosh.
Speaker 1:Was that a surprise?
Speaker 2:no mate.
Speaker 1:Well, if it's your first book, no, come on, it wasn't my first book right far out. You can't be giving the New Plymouth Boys High School that better mate love it when it's being here, being here. Hey, far out. You can't be giving the New Plymouth Boys High School that better Mate love it when it's been here. She's a tough gig.
Speaker 2:Well, fish, welcome to your first ever podcast and I hope you can live up to all expectations and when you get the video and you see your stubble, you'll be pleased. Please, mate, you had it Righto fish, I guess that's the very first question before we even start. Is the nickname fish, because it's followed you everywhere you've gone. Mate, what are we talking? Just to get that big chestnut off your chest? Where did the fish come from?
Speaker 1:It was actually from a really good mate of mine, my first day I walked into boarding school. I didn't know many guys, but my brother was two years older and this guy, mark Edgecombe from Paunu, his brother was two years older. So we'd kind of connected a little bit at drop-offs of dropping our brothers off, and knew that we were going to the hostel at New Plymouth Boys High the same kind of year and it was actually him the first day that we landed at New Plymouth Boys. He goes mate, you look like an orange ruffy, but that's actually too long, so your nickname is going to be Fish. So since that day shit, that's a few years now 92, a little skinny, little third former Going to New Plymouth Boys High from Taumaranui. And yeah, here we are.
Speaker 2:Here we are, mate, and what the journey since then has been phenomenal. So I just You've been through New Zealand 19s, 21s. New Zealand, marys, briefly, with the Chiefs Taranaki 100 games, no tries, which is an incredible stat. Come on, new Zealand, marys, briefly, with the Chiefs Taranaki 100 games, no tries, which is an incredible stat. Come on, come on Hurricanes 84 games. Cardiff 124 games, three tries. And you were captain at those last three for pretty much a good chunk of those periods, mate. So that took you all the way through to 2012,. And then your coaching career started, mate, and, as professional coaching is, it's pretty nomadic. And you've been all over the show the naki poe, western force, georgia, even wellington, mate. So how has that journey been for you, the whole rugby career? Because it's been an epic one though.
Speaker 1:Yeah, hey, you know I think of when I was a player. I thought I was very loyal and you naming all these teams tells me that I'm not because I've been here there and bloody everywhere. But you know, I think when you first start out you know what I mean. I was fortunate enough to make the Taranaka team early and I had some wise old men that I saw over New Year's. The three of them were there Andy Slater, kevin Barrett and Shane McDonald. Three guys that really influenced you as a young guy and what rugby was, the old school way of doing things was about, and team culture and having fun and working hard and enjoying what we were doing was bloody important to them. Because you know, those guys were tough workers. They, you know they were all cockies at the time and it was all about the enjoyment for them representing their province, which they did so many times. Those guys together. But really, you know, the main thing was enjoyment.
Speaker 2:Do you think that's shaped your whole career, mate?
Speaker 1:I'd like to think so because I looked up to those guys a lot when I first started and having them working so hard and being cockies and having families and still being able to play rugby and play with that real passion that they did was special to be involved with when you're such a young kid. So I think that definitely has helped me throughout my career. It's helped me with my decisions when I made the Chiefs. When I called in in 99, ian Foster tried to recruit me to Waikato and the Chiefs and that was a tough decision and I turned that down and was mainly for those guys. I was like, mate, you need to be the next centurion in this province and you know I got 100 on the dot. But yeah, they really influenced me.
Speaker 2:How'd you get 100 on the dot? How'd you get it to that perfection?
Speaker 1:I actually wouldn't know, but jeez, I'm glad I didn't need one more.
Speaker 2:Mate, and when I talk to people about you, mate, and actually knowing you myself these are some of the quotes like just one line is that people say about you no nonsense player Approachable down to earth, and I reckon that they're exactly spot on and it seems like that's where it stems from. So the origins, with the three wise men, with their ethos, it feels like it really has just stuck with you the whole way through, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you know it's most probably a fear, you know. I mean I like to involve everyone. I think that's potentially one of my special traits. My wife Hayley she always talks about that I'm well-connected, but I'm well-connected because I get on the phone and call people and I keep connected and I keep in touch with good people because you've been through so much with them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you do. And I've got another quote which I'm jumping ahead of myself here, mate, but I'll do this, seeing you said it. You are very good at connecting and here's a quote from the media in cardiff is quote you earn huge respect for unifying welsh and foreign imports together on that team because you're a captain of that team and I think that does sum you up too, mate. But if I can go back, mate, before we get into that leadership stuff, because that's where I want to hit you with I want to know a little bit about culture, because this podcast is about culture. And what have you learned, mate, around different cultures through that huge variety of teams you've been through? And also you've put some big shifts in a couple of those teams. You've almost got three centurion blocks at different teams. What have you learned around the cultural piece around rugby? What's been done well, what potentially isn't always done well?
Speaker 1:Mate. It's always a hard question, ben, you think you know what I mean. Like they always go on about team culture and that it's bloody important, but it is potentially the most important thing. But to really facilitate that and really nail knock it on the head what that looks like and how you get that, that's hard to put into words for me. Okay, but for me, I think feeling connected and having input into a team environment for me increases the individual's output and his ability to train hard and perform on the weekend.
Speaker 1:So what I think in simple terms, you've got to work on that. The players have to be a part of it. It can't be driven only from the coaches. It can't be only only from the coaches. It can't be only driven from the players. It has to be a unified force for this to grow wheels. I think back to my early Taranaki days. Those guys drove the team, they had the power. Team culture was everything. After the game we'd be bang into a room and talking about the importance of X, y and Z and really pulling together as a tight unit.
Speaker 2:What did those three wise men do to just anything specifically they used to do, which either felt galvanised teams, I think, just time spent together off the field, ben Win, lose or draw.
Speaker 1:We went through some hard times and we had some really good years in Taranaki. In Taranaki, you know and you know, we got a hiding against Dunedin and the Hollanders not the Hollanders Otago in 90, I want to say 99, but shit, we made the semis as a pretty amateur rugby team and that was all about connection. That was all about working hard for each other and not wanting to let each other down. And I think back to you know, like I've heard Justin Marshall say it many a time the Crusaders what was their team culture built up on in the early days? That was built up on not wanting to let your mate down on defence and working bloody hard for him. So I feel that those kind of things are not lost not at all, but they're important. And I still think they're bloody important today, do you?
Speaker 2:think it's shifted and changed since you, since you were playing in that day and you've been back to Taranaki as a coach. Is there society change on that front? Is things shifting or how do you see it? A hundred percent?
Speaker 1:It's shifted. Um, is society changed on that front? Is things shifting? Or how do you see it? Oh, 100% it's shifted. I think we've put the importance elsewhere, ben. Where have we put it For? Maybe not for the better of the team? You know what I mean. We've indulged in other things. You know, there's more time spent on nutrition, there's more time spent on set piece meetings. All these other things evolved and maybe that part's been left out. So I put here that I said team culture is bloody important and hey, we have all this time for set piece and scrums and line outs. And actually in the schedule, where's the bit for team culture in the weekly schedule? Where's the team culture part? Because actually in the 77th minute when I need my mate, I need to make sure he's there with me.
Speaker 2:Do you factor it in to your stuff? Do you put in to go?
Speaker 1:We talk about it a lot. When I went to the force, the first thing I saw on the schedule was all this thing and I said, mate, there's no fun in that. You know what I mean? We've got to have some fun here, because these guys are a lot of them have come from the east and you've got to make it a special place that people want to go to.
Speaker 2:Did you get it in there? Did you help get it in there?
Speaker 1:Yep, yep. I said, mate, like we need to make this. You know what I mean. It's got to be different.
Speaker 2:I think that's awesome. Do you think the advent of like sort of professionalised rugby has made all the nuts and bolts be really important? And amateur coach, then try to mimic all that stuff and lose their cultural peace.
Speaker 1:Yep, yep, they see what has happened above them 100%. But I still feel, you know I still are quite well connected to my club at Old Boys and a couple of guys that are still coaching them and you know they are still right into team culture and Andy Slater's coached that team for the last five or six years or whatever, and it's still the number one for them. Is that real connection piece and being accountable for being on time and making sure you know you've got one red card, that you're allowed to be away. You know all those things that drive a team environment.
Speaker 2:That red card system is when you pull it, everyone has to come out with you and everyone gets one. Do you want to run through that one for the people that don't know it?
Speaker 1:That means I think you're allowed one red card, that you're not allowed to be there for that weekend, but otherwise you're right in.
Speaker 2:Oh, so the red card is you can pull it once a season and then you're out. You don't have to come to the session.
Speaker 1:You can pull it, yeah, once throughout the season short season these years, but hey, you know what I mean. If you need to play your card, play it well.
Speaker 2:Mate, that is taking it back to the old days. Mate, Love it.
Speaker 1:That's it, but hey, we would never have missed a session, ben.
Speaker 2:That's correct, mate. I remember one session and I think you were part of it too where it was Jason Spice and David Holwell organized. Everyone had the whole team at the Hurricanes had to turn up to the Bar some country bar and as you rocked in you got told what number you were. So if you were first in the door, you had to buy one jug, and then the second person had to buy two jugs and then the 40th person obviously had to buy 40 jugs. 40 jugs, and what a great system. And I think from then on, really everyone made sure they were there on time.
Speaker 1:Moral of the story Don't be loud.
Speaker 2:Don't be loud. I can still remember this pub at New Plymouth. Yeah, well, as a side story, I remember it was a funeral for David Holwell's thumb, which he whacked off. He went in for a scrum machine and put his thumb through the springs as his shoulder was hitting and lopped off the end of his thumb. So that's the last time a number 10 should be on a scrum machine, right Fish.
Speaker 1:Correct.
Speaker 2:Correct. I did love the way he didn't stop. He kept pushing to get the automatic score on that Incredible oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Hey, david Holwell. No surprise, right, he was David Holwell, no surprise.
Speaker 2:Right, he was great mate. Now you're with the Blues now around the culture and I'd love to just have a quick chat about that. Mate Last year was just outstanding. How was the culture generally speaking for the team last year?
Speaker 1:the environment- generally speaking for the team last year. The environment Well, I think in the past I think there's been this stigma around that the Blues culture hasn't been great, for whatever reason. I felt last year, well, vern came in and he simplified the way that we played, uh, which meant less meeting time, which meant less wasted time, that they felt that they could just get out there and express themselves. Um, and obviously at the start there was a little bit of teething just around how that was going to actually work. I remember pre-season we sat down and said, hey, this is how we wanted to play. And Fenis Tavern and Adam Foy they spent a lot of time looking at how the Blues at their best, this is what their game looked like From past Yep, from the past. And then they were like right, you know, we want to play this game for longer periods of time.
Speaker 2:Oh, really, so that yeah.
Speaker 1:So, which you know, which makes sense, but you know the time and effort that they did put into that was was, um, was awesome, uh, and hey, at the start, when you're trying to change, you know we're, we're very over structured rugby nation, uh, especially here in New Zealand, you know. I mean we, we, you know, even at secondary school it's all very structured and we wait for this perfect kind of thing and then we get the ball to the pot of three and then we go around the corner and give it to the other three, where that was totally against what we did.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I think the boys enjoyed it being different less meetings and they felt that they could have input into the team how they wanted to play.
Speaker 2:Well, it's really. How did you sort of get the guys to play mate? Because when you watch the Boos, particularly your forward pack, it's hard to say what they were doing otherwise other than just going for it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you know. I think you look at the athletes and the power athletes and the physicality, the profile of player we have. It suited us down to the ground.
Speaker 2:And did you like when you watched your team play last year? The forwards were just outstanding, mate. It looked like they were just pumped up. They wanted the ball. Everyone was queuing up to go for it. Is that something which was like a mindset you put it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it was a simplified game plan too, ben. We gave them key areas that we wanted to really dominate in Yep and you know, for the most part, you know they did that. Not that we were perfect or anything. You know what I mean. Like we still come out and stuck it a few times, you know, I think. The Waratahs away we were clunky. The Reds away we scored a beautiful late try to win. The Crusaders down there we lose. You know what I mean. Like we still need to be better, which you know, which we'll do this year. We've had a great pre-season, but you know, I think the word is for me is we simplified things and we played to our strengths.
Speaker 2:Can you give an example of how you did simplify that down, mate? Are we just less line outs, or what's the example?
Speaker 1:I think not less line outs, because the importance of the set piece, especially I think in the later stage in super rugby you go back to the Crusaders when they won so many in a row. Actually, when you dig back to it, the importance of having a dominant set piece, wins you games and we've seen that. We've been to the UK and we know the importance of that. And Test Match Rugby you see the Saffirs come on with their bomb squad and really dominate. Even watching the NPC final this year I remember Wellington really struggling. Bayer Plenty had a real stranglehold on the game for me and there was a massive moment for me inside the 22. They got a penalty, they kicked out and the Wellington of old potentially would have gone off the top and because of the conditions they've got a good more going and someone gave a stupid penalty away from the BOP which gave them access into their 22. And for me that was the winning and losing of that game.
Speaker 2:Right, and in terms of the simplifying, you're simplifying down the structure stuff rather than say you're here, number one, here number four, here, number five, you're here, number 12, three. You just simply sometimes went right we're going to attack there, go for it, boys. And then, when it's on, we're going to take the space.
Speaker 1:Correct, and it was as simple as that correct, and it was as simple as that hey, it's not simple because there's a lot of detail in the other stuff around the carry clean, around the running support lines. You know what I mean. So I think simplifying yes, but detail and what that looks like is bloody important.
Speaker 2:Do less, but the less you do do it really well. Be really efficient that looks like is bloody important. Do less, but the less you do, do it really well.
Speaker 1:Be really efficient.
Speaker 2:Yeah, mate, and that seems a feature of the culture of the crew. You just played a simple game plan, but no one could stop you because of the detail.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yep, and I thought the Reds you know, looking back, the Reds did a really good job against us. They stopped us for whatever reason, so that was good to go back to look at. But hey, you know things in rugby that haven't changed since even you were playing. You know gain line efficiency, set piece being efficient inside your 22,. Not playing too much rugby in your own half.
Speaker 2:Mate, take that. And what do you do, mate, to get those boys up? Like knowing you, I've got an idea, but in terms of motivating that forward pack every week, did you need to, or was it passed back to the players, like you talked about?
Speaker 1:yeah, gave them the onus although a highly motivated group had been 21 years since the blues had won, they'd been, you know, in fairness, they'd been pretty close the last couple of years lost the poor final to the crusaders, uh, two year ago. Lost the poor semi poor semifinal a year ago and then got over the line against a Chiefs team that was in the final the year before. So they were a highly motivated group. They wanted to do it. We had someone like Aki that was going to be his last year and he'd offered so much to the group and helped a lot of the younger generation players come through. So we had a bit to play for.
Speaker 1:But I think you know what I mean. I think you look back at it. It was a great team to be involved in because you didn't really have to poke the beer. They had high standards and they drove standards themselves and, as we know as coaches, when it's coming from the beer, they had high standards and they drove standards themselves and, as we know as coaches, when it's coming from the players, it's a powerful thing, it's a beautiful thing.
Speaker 2:Did you talk about the fact that you hadn't won it for 21 years?
Speaker 1:I didn't because I hadn't really been there long enough, but definitely some of players off of Tunga Fasi been there for 100 and nearly 50 games, been through a lot of pain.
Speaker 2:What do you think about raising that aspect of motivation?
Speaker 1:I think at the start of the year we definitely talked about it, but I think the closer we got the importance of us performing over actually historical results. Getting down there and doing what we'd done well all season was the important part for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, was there anything that stood out for that season, which stood out from other teams that you'd been with, or poorer seasons culturally, that you thought that was a great addition and that played a small segment in potentially winning the championship?
Speaker 1:I thought Vern did really well. He handed over the keys early to the game drivers of the group. He empowered the game drivers really well. On a Monday we'd have a game driver meeting and if you want to turn up, you can turn up, and they took control from that moment. We shared information that we felt was important for the week and then, from that moment, they took control and then we'd have a team meeting and they would be the ones delivering the messages. They would be the ones driving it because ultimately, especially nowadays, coaches can't really influence the game because the game doesn't stop at super rugby level. You know, you might get the old poor message man. I feel sorry for him. He's getting 10 messages. He hasn't got out there till the 18th minute. So the ability for your game drivers and senior players to be really connected and on the same page with a coaching group is massively important and the sooner they're driving that the better. How do you get that?
Speaker 2:like how would you specifically get it with your forward pack in terms of passing over that important and the sooner they're driving that the better. How do you get that Like, how would you specifically get it with your forward pack in terms of passing over that?
Speaker 1:earlier in the week. Well, we didn't really go away from what we knew what worked for us, so that part didn't really change much. But there'd be things that would change, you know, would change our line-out menu weekly, you know, and we'd have robust discussions Monday morning. So we're really aligned. So when our line-out callers and hookers went to that game drivers meeting that actually five men, you know, like we're playing the Crusaders this week They've got a really good six-man defensive line-out. Five-man line-out is going to be our main weapon. So we're really aligned on what our menu looks like with the attack coach that's been into that meeting. So we're on the same page and making sure now that the teams are working with the line-out callers to make sure they're sure they're on the same page.
Speaker 2:Does that mean a lot of meetings in the morning on the early days of the week?
Speaker 1:Monday morning is, you know, busy, but we love it, Love it. You know what I mean. It's yeah Monday mornings all go.
Speaker 2:Have you changed on that front in terms of have you always been that open and empowering of players, or is that molded with time, or has Verne had influence there?
Speaker 1:No, I think I learned this from France when I was there, because I couldn't really speak the language, so I needed them. I needed them, so that helped me and now I look at it, it's the only way. And, hey, I was fortunate enough to go on with the All Blacks this year and I mean they're doing the same thing. You know, like Scotty Barrett wasn't playing that week but Tupou Vai had massive influence and, as we know, as line-out callers, and as we know as line-out callers, if you're not really comfortable with something in the menu you don't call it because there's other options to call. So you know you've got to empower those guys and feel it's their baby and they own it. You know we have robust discussions. You know when I was coaching Wellington, james Blackwell and Don Bird and Caleb Delaney, we had some really great discussions with those three. You know really highly intelligent love the line out, line out, drunk potentially, and you could relate to that Fish.
Speaker 1:I loved it because Dom was, you know, he was so far left field that he wanted this and we had to actually show him that there was another way. Oh, classic.
Speaker 2:And how do you do that, mate? That's a good point. As a coach, you've sat and scrolled through all the lineouts and you've got your idea what happens when a player comes to you and goes nah, that's shit, I think we should do this and you think that's shit. How do you have that conversation?
Speaker 1:I think there's disagree and commit. I think that's a good one. You'll get a win the odd time. Sometimes you just gotta Back out and trust that. You know that they'll have it. Give them their time. But I think that comes from their trust on you too. You know Knowing that, you know you can tell a bullshitter when it comes to this, because someone comes in Ah, you know, and he's looked at Three line outs. You know we actually I've looked at all the line outs for the last x amount of games and you actually know what's going on.
Speaker 2:So you can, you can spot a bullshitter out from molloy is that just time in mate, or do you reckon it's because you love it so much?
Speaker 1:you know the type of people that are well, you can just tell that he's looked at a couple and he thinks he wants to get this option. He hasn't really gone in and actually, hey, this is how they're defending you know. So yeah, I had one of them last year and I just said to him hey, go back, Call me in another couple of hours, Go back, have a deeper look and call me back and then tell me what you think.
Speaker 2:Give it a bit of time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and actually have a look. Was it a once offer or is it actually a system that they're using? So yeah, it was good.
Speaker 2:Mate, what did you learn on that type of thing from the Georgian thing your little time in Georgia, because that is a heavy set piece type team, and again, the language factor. Did you pick up any little tidbits around that stuff from those boys?
Speaker 1:well once again, mate. You know the key part is your connection piece with key guys in that environment Does that entail meetings, phone calls, red wine bar in town.
Speaker 2:What does that look like for you?
Speaker 1:When I first got there I was like you know, it's a hell of a spot. I flew into Tbilisi and they're like oh, you know, you've landed in Tbilisi, we see that, oh yeah, there's a car picking you up. You've got a four-hour car ride oh shit, dodgy old road and yeah, all the other good stuff to go with it. But then just having the ability to know that, you know, I stood and watched for a couple of days and I was like, right, these two Beckers one from Poe he's captain of Poe now and the other boy is Sagi from Leon, hold the Power, I need to get on side with these guys.
Speaker 1:And I actually have recruited Becker Gugodze from Bordeaux to Poe before I left side with these guys. And I actually have recruited Becker from Bordeaux to Poe before I left, so I'd actually had discussions with him. So that was the easy one. But the ability to read the room and see who's going to be the guy to get up there and translate for you and back you is the most important thing a coach can do. If you think you can go in there and just dominate and do it your way, or the highway, you're going to be out the door very smartly.
Speaker 2:Yes, and would you say that's changed in coaching since 30 years ago, mate, since the three wise men style? Is that changed as coach, as a modern coach? Is that different?
Speaker 1:yeah, it's different because they actually, you know, you think back of. You know I think of neil barnes like he coached me my first year out of school. He's an an amazing coach, his detail and, hey, he's got a lot better throughout his career, like we all do. I was fortunate enough to have Neil as a coach because he actually cared and he had an eye for detail. But a lot of other coaches that you had back in the day, you think you're like Jesus we went up to March. We went up to March. We went up to March.
Speaker 2:Yeah, mate, it's very cool. It seems like a uniting piece to a lot of coaches that have been well-travelled, such as yourself, that the ability when you take away the language piece, I think it's important. Well, you're almost a force to get allies and earn the trust for different ways, and I remember a coach saying to me the value of Japan for a young coach is exactly that. You have to learn to do it without language, and it seems like that's coming through with what you're saying too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know, I think of my time in France. You know I had a couple of key guys in there, and then on the other side there was a guy that was running the line out who was highly respected. His father was a French legend and his detail and his ability to do anything in the line-out was fascinating for me that he had been in the top 14 for so long that he could get away with what he was doing. Yeah, what was?
Speaker 2:he doing.
Speaker 1:Oh, just, his jump was horrendous, his lift was horrendous. His lift was horrendous, you know, like none of the real detail was anywhere near it, and he was the line out caller when I got there and he had to go, you know, in the pre-season, like no one wanted you'd have competition within two teams and no one wanted him in their team in the end.
Speaker 2:How did you get physically? He left the team where he got out, or did you just have to park him?
Speaker 1:We just parked him, we just didn't select him.
Speaker 2:How did those conversations go?
Speaker 1:It was pretty brutal, but pitchers don't lie. Eh, I reckon I cut him my first month I was there. I reckon I cut him 200 clips of just line out and just said mate, like this is sepa pussy, not impossible.
Speaker 2:Mate, how do you run that sort of things? Because obviously it's going to fray a relationship when you show up with like 200 clips he's done terribly. How do they go?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't think I was his best friend. I think he was quite comfortable in Poe when I was there. You know he was the motivator within the group but actually he wasn't carrying the can for me, eh, so he you know, as coaches you got to make calls, so you know it was a good learning for me to trust.
Speaker 2:Would you do it differently if you didn't do it again?
Speaker 1:I wouldn't. I wouldn't have done anything different there and because actually when I went there, poe had the worst line out. They had the worst line out in the comp. They had the worst line out in the comp and we got much, much better because they had too many calls and wow, it was over a complicated thing and we actually really stripped it back. Good pre-season, you know, really honed in on a few things and we got much better. So you know to answer your question and we got much better. So you know to answer your question, what was required was what happened.
Speaker 2:No, I've got no doubts, fish, how you delivered that, and even though it's a harsh message, I actually know that you would have delivered it very well.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because it's a strength of yours that You're very good at it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and he's a good man. Like I actually got on really well. Yeah, because it's a strength of yours. Eh, you're very good at it. Yeah, and he's a good man. Like, I actually got on really well with him. But you know he, he, he knew it was coming. You know like it was, it didn't sit well with him because he and he was a bit of an older body you 31, 32, but the French they go on forever over there. He would have felt that he had a couple more years there.
Speaker 2:Do you think it put a little bit of trust when you've just banged it on the head that this is shit house, not acceptable? If you haven't heard that before, after the initial shock it actually you go. Oh no, he's bang on.
Speaker 1:He is bang on, and it's clear and obvious too.
Speaker 2:You know, when you're talking about skill sets like that, it's clear and obvious that you're not really nailing your role within a complicated it's pretty good feedback, isn't it, to show someone a clip and multiple clips of them doing the wrong thing, provided they know it's the wrong thing, as long as there's education around that. But it certainly smacks you in the face. You can't argue with pictures. It brings me back to mate.
Speaker 2:I remember sitting in a room at the Hurricanes with you and Colin Cooper showed a clip of one of the boys driving in a mall with feet pumping like pistons and he praised it and said look how he's pumping his legs up and down like a train or something. And everyone went yeah, yeah, yeah. And you put your hand up and went Coop, so I'm going to have to disagree completely with you. And the whole room stopped and turned to you and he goes. I think that you said I think that's shit. You're pumping the legs, but every time you lift your foot off the ground it means you're taking the power off. It'd be better to be pushing with sprigs in the ground and actually moving hard rather than looking good by pumping your legs like that. And the room stopped, mate, and everyone just went. He's bloody right, you're right. And then even, I think, joe Ward who it was. It was like cheers, mate, for doing it.
Speaker 1:It was a Joe Ward special, wasn't it?
Speaker 2:I think Mota may have been a fan of this too there was a couple of blokes that did it, but I think after you said it and just put it out there as a statement publicly, I don't think it was done again. And hey, after you said it and just put, it out there as a statement publicly.
Speaker 1:I don't think it was done again. No, and hey, to be fair, I think it came up in the unit review and I kind of bit my tongue and thought, ah, nah, it's not the right time, anyway, we'll move on. And then it came up in the team review again. I was like, right, I'm sorry, this is not sitting well with me.
Speaker 2:What do you think about that, mate? As a character trait of yours, it's always been something you've done, done it really well. What's your reflections on it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think, right place. I mean, I always think of guys that pipe up like that Right place, right time. Was that the right place, right time? Potentially not, potentially not, but yeah, but yeah. If I had my time again, hopefully I would. What I'd want a player to do in my situation would be to do it in a unit review when there's forwards only Because in a forwards room we call it the we have a forge room and anything's on there. If you need to discuss anything, this is your time to discuss. It's an open slather and it's an awesome room and you can bring up whatever.
Speaker 2:You mean at the Blues, currently at the moment At the.
Speaker 1:Blues. Currently we have this forge room and it's an awesome room For me. It's a really good learning environment. If someone's not clear or comfortable and I think you know that's a place you can put your hand up and everyone's got your back.
Speaker 2:It's awesome. Is there people calling each other out? Yeah, there's honest conversations.
Speaker 1:There's honest conversations, but if you're not clear or you're not real comfortable and you're like, oh, I don't know about that.
Speaker 2:That's the place to do it. And how do?
Speaker 1:you deal with that as a coach. Ah, we love that. We love that because they're asking questions and normally, if they're asking questions, they care.
Speaker 2:Have you been in environments where there hasn't been questions asked?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then I'm like well, you had the opportunity to talk to me in this one-on-one or when they're at unit meeting and you haven't done so, like what's missing here? But I think that's where the care comes in, like especially last year and the year before in Venice, like if they actually cared they would ask.
Speaker 2:Do you think there's something in that, though, Fish, that you've got to create an environment which lends itself to doing that in the first place?
Speaker 1:100% and that comes from me is relationships with the players If you show them, you care for them and can have a laugh with them and have robust conversation with them in the same time. I think that's the key to anything you know.
Speaker 2:I think that's the key to anything. How do you deal with questions which are challenging and confronting, because a lot of coaches would struggle with too many questions, especially when you're in the early stages of your coaching journey, where a question is like a threat to your authority or your knowledge or your ego. How would you suggest as a good measure for a threat to your authority or your knowledge or your ego? How? How would you suggest as a good measure for a coach to answer questions and to make them more forthcoming for future?
Speaker 1:I think what, especially the top players? You know, when you're coaching all blacks, you can't bullshit them, to be fair, like they have had world-class coaching for a long time, okay, so I think that's one thing don't don't bullshit them. Like you know, it's okay to be vulnerable and put your hand up and say, hey, like that's a really good question. I actually don't have an answer for you now. I'm going to come back to you, you know. Know what I mean. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Showing them that you're vulnerable is not a bad thing. And then you know, working your way around and, like I do, you know you've got people that you can reach out to. You know that have been mentors of mine throughout my career. You know you can bounce ideas off them. You know you look at the guys in our room.
Speaker 1:At the moment Vern's seen a shitload. Greg Feek is you know he's been under the best coaches in the world for so long. So you know we've got a good core group of guys that you can actually get into and go right, and you might bring a couple of the big dogs into that meeting. Go right, we're going to get to the bottom of this Bang. This is what I'm seeing, right. What are you seeing? What have you done in the past? Find a happy ground and then front at the next meeting with the Fords. Right, the discussion we had on Thursday with blah blah blah. This is what we're going for, boys yeah which I don't think.
Speaker 1:That's the complicated thing. I think you get in trouble, ben, if you start bullshitting. I think so and pretending you're something you're not, and you're pretending something that you think you know but actually you don't know, and for me that's the worst.
Speaker 2:That is the worst you've got to be genuine yep, and that's where words like being authentic.
Speaker 1:You hear that a lot.
Speaker 2:That is the worst You've got to be genuine, yep, and that's where words like being authentic. You hear that a lot, yeah, but it's actually very true, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Yep, be you, because you've kind of got to where you've got for being you, so you can't now go and change.
Speaker 2:Does stress like particularly losing, or pressure? Has it affected you and does it affect others? In this regard, and being authentic in yourself, I think it definitely does affect you.
Speaker 1:It's a high pressured environment. You know, I think two years ago when we got a hiding from the Crusaders in the semifinal, like that hurt our team, you know, like that was a real kick in the gut because we'd actually gone pretty well that year and we went down there and performed poorly on a big stage and you know that hurt on a big stage and you know that hurt. And then you kind of go back and look at things that you could have done better and there's always things that you could have done better. But we own that. And Fennest to Vern, he brought that up and said this is not going to happen again. And yeah, brought that up and said this is not going to happen again. And yeah, it's a professional environment.
Speaker 2:You know yourself it's not a great feeling it sucks when and you've had the ups and down you had teams that have done awesome, like you currently are doing awesome, but you've also had teams which have the force weren't up for much, were you.
Speaker 1:I think the force was different. You know what I mean. I think I celebrated different kind of wins at the force. Oh what sort. You know I went there and I really enjoyed coaching, coaching at the force. Those are different mate, highly intelligent, you know what I mean. Like Throbber Robinson, like he's his fifth year doing his, he's going to be a doctor, you know what I mean, like all these things. And you're like, wow, you're walking into this room. You're like I'm going to be right on here because we've got some guys that are highly intelligent and they're going to call me out if I'm not on point. So, but you know they need to call for everything. You know they can't. Just they haven't got that natural ability to actually just play rugby. So they were frustrating as well.
Speaker 2:Do you think that overthinking is a detriment to teams?
Speaker 1:I think so. I think so, you know, I think if you're second-guessing yourself in any professional environment, I think you know you're emotionally a second too slow and you're not really where you need to be.
Speaker 2:What did you say? You just said when you're leading into the force, you celebrate different types of wins.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like little wins. You know what I mean. I remember throughout the year and we'd be performing and not getting too many wins, but you know we'd see a real belief in the group because we performed at, you know, this level. You know what I mean. So that was a win. You know what I mean. So it was different to actually going to win the comp. You know we played the Blues in Perth and we played really, really well and I was heartbroken. We just lost. You know what I mean. We were on the line for 26 phases and we didn't have the strike power we needed to score and you know we lost. But our performance and our effort you couldn't fault the effort. So you know what I mean. We had to celebrate that because if you didn't, you know what I mean like the group would be. You know, if you're negative and down and your body language and all that stuff that we talk about as coaches is negative, then you know what I mean like it's a poor environment to be in. I reckon.
Speaker 2:It's like a compounding or a vicious circle right Like you lose already and then, if you're correct, pissed off and shitty.
Speaker 1:It's even making it a bit deeper, isn't it? Yeah, here he is. Well, he's the coach. Well, you know. I mean, is this about him or is he trying to? You know, we're trying to get better as a group I love it.
Speaker 2:It's about it. Good leadership, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then on the other side you know what I mean we missed the Super Round and had to play the Chiefs. That we didn't do so well, we came Moana midweek, on a Tuesday I think and flew to Perth via a six-hour layover in Sydney for six hours and got to Perth on the Wednesday night at some ridiculous time. The Hurricanes are waiting for us and we play Saturday and beat the Hurricanes, you know. So it's a she's a crazy old thing. And sometimes you, you know, you think you've, as a coach, you've really nailed the week and had this perfect prep, and you go out there and you don't perform like you think you should do, and then you know, just like what I've talked about, you beat one of the best teams in the comp. That's a cut and paste.
Speaker 2:There's the beauty of it. Paste. There's the beauty of it that's the beauty of it.
Speaker 2:Like the mind, the mind is everything mind is a lot, right, and the environment which you house that mind in terms of, like the greater environment, the room where all the people have their minds, that's. I'm a real believer that the environment of that room, where all the minds are shelved and harnessed and incubated, is huge and there's an invisible energy, just like in the mind. You can't see how all the synapses connect together, but you get 50 people in a room. There is an energy which flows between them, just like a brain and all the different things which is your culture, which is your belief, which is your connected togetherness, right.
Speaker 2:And I think just the connections, the wires that fire together, they're the ones that ignite up, they compound exponentially. I think. It's like I reckon, if we were to walk into the blues environment at any stage towards the back end of their season last year, that collective environment, we could have felt the energy and the connection, I reckon, and walked into that forwards room where you've got the open forum, I reckon any Joe public walked in and go oh gee, there's something special here. They'd be able to feel something in that environment and for me that's the invisible bit, bit which is because you can't measure it, it's often left to the side, but yeah it's, it's cool it's so important, hey, like.
Speaker 1:But like you say, like it's, it's potentially the most important thing, but do we invest in it in that time enough?
Speaker 2:that time enough. It's case by case, I think.
Speaker 1:You know, anne, we had a good catch up with Nathan Cleary this year. He came to the Blues and talked to the coaches and what a guy. Eh, like, what a guy. I was like this guy's a legend. And what really connected with me was he goes boys. I've won the last three years, yep, but actually I hadn't won a thing for 15 years. You know what I mean. So I was just like what a legend. You've just won three premierships in one of the hardest competitions in the world, where everyone's taking your best players and you're still fronting up. But his ability to just keep it real, I was just like that's awesome. I haven't won a thing for 15 years. Mate, the Warriors wanted to sign me for one year. I was out.
Speaker 2:Oh, far out Amazing, isn't it? Well, mate, talking about just a real dude, I reckon that's you too, Fish. I reckon you couldn't get any realer than yourself, and I think the biggest exemplifier of that is that you're pretty much captain of every or when you're a player, you are pretty much captain of every team you're with, particularly the big ones, the Taranakis, the Hurricanes, the Cardiff Blues, and things were said about you like Cardiff's all-time favorite import, and this is some of the words. You valued unity, accountability and enjoyment. You were stoic yet humorous. What is it about yourself, mate, and your leadership, do you reckon, which I know you talk about? The three wise men instilled a lot, but what are some of the traits? If you had to say that you really value about your leadership and the way you are and that you think have set you up really well, not just for coaching but for life as well, what would you say would be the biggies?
Speaker 1:I think about the Cardiff one a lot when people talk about this. I went there and there was some young talent man. They had Jamie Roberts, sam Warburton, lee Halfpenny, josh Navidi. They had all these amazing rugby players. But I felt that there was a real disconnect between the older guys that were the Welsh legends and kind of like. There was a middle crew and there was a real disconnect and there wasn't real. There wasn't a real togetherness on anything and I could see that we had actually not a bad team. And yeah, I reckon I spent at the start I spent a lot of time with those younger guys, trying to connect them into the team and make them be a part of the bigger picture.
Speaker 2:How'd you do it?
Speaker 1:How did I do it? I just got around them and made them feel comfortable and made them feel that they were a part of the group. We had social events and it was important that everyone was there and I sat with them and really embraced the youth of today of that.
Speaker 2:Were you living vicariously through the I think I may have been.
Speaker 1:I think I may have been, but you know, I knew they were good men. They were good men. I remember one classic moment. I was sitting in the changing shed. I think we must have had some time off, you know what? I mean I'd played so many games or whatever, and they'd given a week off and I kind of went into the changing shed I think we must have had some time off. I mean, I'd played so many games or whatever, and they'd given a week off and I kind of went into the changing room I must have done a session and the younger boys were looking at me and I was like what's going on, boys? They were like our mate's making us do Prowler. I said you've got a game on Saturday, I think it was Thursday. You've got a game on Saturday, haven't you? He goes yeah, the trainers got the heavy Perala out here. We're doing Perala and I was like I lost it.
Speaker 1:I went out there and saw these guys doing heavy Perala and they're trying to perform for the club, when a few of the older guys are having a rest, and I just said this is impossible, mate. You would never do this to us. So why are you doing it for these guys? And I told the trainer. I marched upstairs and got the head coach and I said you need to go and sort that out, because this is not how we work in this place, because actually these guys need to perform on Saturday and I think I had their back. Those young guys, you know what I mean. I'd go to bat for them because I cared about them. You know what I mean. I'd go to bat for them because I cared, I cared about them. You know what I mean. I think that's what I always come back to. I actually care, I actually cared about them. They were good buggers and it's the same with the players. Now, I care about them. I'd do anything for them.
Speaker 1:I know you would mate have you had any run-ins like that as a coach where you've had to do something that equivalent? No, I think we're all. You know what I mean. I think as a coach, you try and get real alignment of what you're doing as a management group. So I think that's changed now. Ben, you know what I mean. We're most probably the S&C back in that day she how many years was that? You know what I mean. They were most probably there and they didn't have the. They weren't connected as one, as a management group. But now we're, you know, the head coach over everything. He knows exactly what's going on on every day and every moment of what's going on. So I don't think we'll see this big blowout of Prowler and really doing a job on the boys' legs and them not being able to perform.
Speaker 2:Mate, I have no doubt how you went about that, mate. But talking about doubt, I suppose, fish, do you ever doubt yourself on that stuff? Because you do it so naturally and you're so good at it. It seems to be inherent in your nature. But have you had to push that side of things and like, like your question? Because I imagine for anyone listening to this like, to do that sort of thing takes a bit of thought and a bit of bravery. Have you ever had times where you've struggled with it?
Speaker 1:oh, I think we always go through. You know, as a coach, you know you go through tough times, and it's the Ivan Cleary one. You know it's 15 years of grind. But I think ultimately, Ben, you know you go back to. What's important to you is that you care. You care, you know. I mean you actually care about those guys. So you're only really asking the questions from your experience. You know what's right and wrong. You know you kind of roughly know I knew that was wrong, um, so that's why I voice my opinion. And it's from a and it's from a good. It's normally coming from a good space, it's coming from a great place like our forge room. You know what I mean. They're asking the question because they actually care yeah, mate.
Speaker 2:Well, I certainly know you do, mate. Well, how did you care? One question, like around specific games, around where there's a little bit of heartache and you may be questioning yourself and the situation was in 2009. There was that heineken cup semi-final with a kickoff, and you were captain then and what, for those that don't know, the Heineken Cup semi-final, carter versus Leicester. I was coach on the sidelines for Leicester and everything was squared after everything and it came down to a kick-off. There was like the 10th thing on the menu of what it come down to. It comes down like this red card. Everything was squared up. It was unbelievable. And then on the eighthth kick, you guys missed it and then Leicester went through and it was. You could have.
Speaker 2:There was a sold out 60,000 in the stadium. You could have heard a pin drop, not a single soul left. It was quiet. As you had all the teams on halfway, you had to walk up, take the shot man. It was, wasn't it an amazing spectacle? It was incredible out there. And I see, I did note walk up, take the shot, man. Wasn't it an amazing spectacle? It was incredible out there. And I see, I didn't know you didn't take a kick as captain, mate.
Speaker 1:I was actually off after three minutes. I felt at least I'd popped my ribcage at the clean out.
Speaker 2:Would you have taken the shot?
Speaker 1:No, I wouldn't have, Because I would have allowed those other guys to like Martin and those guys, they would have definitely kicked before me. I most surely would have been another two. We had a real blowout in that comp in that day. We didn't sub this guy, Darren Allenson, our reserve nine. We didn't sub this guy, Darren Allenson, our reserve nine. We didn't sub him on late. You guys had the boy, the French boy.
Speaker 2:Yep, well, there's a great story about that fish where I don't know how we worked it. I can't remember.
Speaker 1:He got back on eh.
Speaker 2:He got back on. So when Cockers at the time had worked it out and said we've got to get him back on, it's going to come down to a kickoff.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And we radioed down the sideline and Paul Burke said where's Dupree? We need to get him on. And we went running. He went running into the change room and he was there in the nude having a cigarette and a beer and he'd been done for the day. And they said mate, you've got to go back on, we're going down to a kickoff. He's like, hey, man, I'm sipped off. And then he had to quickly stub a cigarette out, run back on the field, come in. And he took, I think, second shot at goal. So he was playing. We just chucked him on the wing to get him on, to get our best kickers on the field.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one of our best kick, because Darren Allenson, yeah, was still sitting in the stand. Yeah, right and hey, the worst. You know everyone blames Martin Williams for this, who you know. He's a Welsh legend and he's manager of the Welsh rugby team at the moment champion guy still keeping contact with him regularly. Tom James, love Tom James. James, mad as a snake legend of a guy. He was our fifth kicker and your boy had missed the third kicker. What's his name?
Speaker 2:yeah, johnny Murphy.
Speaker 1:Johnny Murphy had missed the kick. So we actually were kicking to win. Yeah, I'm not holding on kick, so we actually were kicking to win. I'm not holding on, but I lost 10 grand that day, 10,000 pound, to make the final of the Honing Cup. In my contract I had a bonus. I'm not holding on or anything but funny with it. Ben Blair, those two conversions from the sideline that day, those two amazing tries, those max six. I think Tom James may have scored one of them, he still. We often catch up when I'm down in Christchurch and he still talks about it. He goes, mate, that was the toughest kick of my life. Yeah, and you say you owe me 10 grand for that.
Speaker 2:He goes mate, that was the toughest kick of my life. Yeah, and you say you owe me 10 grand for that.
Speaker 1:Wasn't him, tom James.
Speaker 2:Tom Mate. No, I did feel for Marty Williams. It was his last game for the club, wasn't?
Speaker 1:it. Yeah, he's a legend, but you know, everyone thinks he's a legend and he had all these other accolades.
Speaker 2:So I think if it was going to actually happen to someone, it was actually quite good that it happened to him, and because he actually thought he was all this.
Speaker 1:You know this skillful guy, you know he thought he was this guy.
Speaker 2:And actually deep down he wasn't. Oh mate, mate, he'll love that ribbon, that's for sure. Love it, mate. We actually finished the kickoff the next Monday at training and everyone that was left on the field that would have had to kick, not a chance they were making it. Noobs kicked, eh. Craig Newby. Craig Newby got his, geordie Crane got his. Yeah, I always remember Geordie Murphy said to the team in the huddle when Geordie was walking up there.
Speaker 1:He was like whatever happens, boys, let's not celebrate this one, let's just be quiet and humble and appreciate this okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna hats off to you boys and the tigers that yeah, like there was no real celebration. You know it was a pretty humbling experience for us all. But you know they say the neutral 60,000, even nice weather in Cardiff that day and they said what an occasion.
Speaker 2:Mate, I actually reckon, as a lot of people slagged it off, but I loved it. I thought it was an exciting way to finish, and I would like, after you've done the extra time, instead of gassing people like it just creates a sheer, like just everyone stayed. You could have hit a pin drop in japan. Interestingly, though, fish, there was a game that I just missed, where nilly latu was the captain of any sea, and I got to that situation, but their criteria was you go into the room, the two captains go into the room outside, and you pick the envelope, and if you open it up and it says win, your team wins, and he came back out and waved the letter going we've won, and that was how it was done there, and I'd way rather a kickoff.
Speaker 1:It was outstanding well, there was another one. Since then they changed the. They've changed the rules a little bit, but there was a promotion relegation in the french league and bayon and Berets, and Berets won the kick out. And who kicked it? Anyway, it's past me. Stephen Armitage has kicked the winning goal, and you know how the French can celebrate Wow, this place has erupted. So there's only been two kickouts that I know of in the history of our game.
Speaker 2:That's great. Long live it. Now, fisher, I will let you go, mate. I've got one last question that I want to hit you up with because I know you're going to have an interesting answer to it. It's about is there a coaching principle or belief that you believe in or you're intrigued about that you reckon a lot of rugby coaches would disagree with Something that you go? I actually reckon this about the game, or philosophy or theoretical thing, about any part of rugby which your contemporaries, at any level, would go ooh, I don't know about that. I haven't thought about it that way. You've got something interesting. I can see you ticking along, mate. You've got some ideas.
Speaker 1:I'm actually really gutted here because I'm going to let you down. I'm pretty mainstream, really gutted here, because I'm going to let you down. You know I'm pretty mainstream, but that's yeah. I don't really. You know what I mean. When I think of the question that you've just asked me, Ben, I think of you. I think of you having this different way of doing things where I'm so mainstream.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean I'm so dull and boring that I don't know, I don't have that mate like I think yours is situation. I reckon that we you have a lot of things mate. You have like the, the anti, pumping your legs in the in the mall mate.
Speaker 1:I reckon you've got that sort of thing brewing in you I've got some random stuff, for sure, but honestly, like, I'm just like what is that okay? So, okay, I'm gonna give you I don't think I'm answering your question, but I'm gonna give you one thing that I reckon that my point of difference yes, you know what I mean. In my coaching journey mine's been bizarre, to say the least, but the thing that I'm really proud of is that I went back and coached my school, my club, my province, and then I had an opportunity to go to France and then go to Perth and then go to coach the Lions and NPC again Georgia, and here I find myself in the 09, loving life in Auckland. So I think for me, I've had a lot of different learnings from all these different competitions and in the top 14, where it's crazy. You know what I mean. I'm not answering your question, but I think I've picked up really different things from all these different teams that I have coached to make, hopefully, me the person and the coach I am today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, mate, how good. What a close. And I think when you talk about you mentioned all those themes there first you just reference yourself as being very mainstream, very conservative, and then you list where you've gone in the world to Tbilisi, to Pau in France and all these to Cardiff, and you spend a lot of time in all these places, which isn't a conservative way of approaching life, mate. You've actually put yourself out there and you've reaped the rewards of that exposure to such a variety of things, and I think it's testament to you, mate, that you were brave enough, active enough, passionate enough to go and put yourself in an uncomfortable place, to get comfortable in that place, take all the good bits for you, leave the bad bits, modify, grow, extend yourself it's that's not mainstream yeah I would say 99 of uh, 90 of coaches get stuck in the one place.
Speaker 2:So that that's what I think. Whilst people might not disagree with you there, I don't think everyone is open enough to pull trigger and do those things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'm most probably fortunate enough to have a legend of a wife to actually allow me to do this, and I think of this quite often. That shit like, like, I don't know many partners that would allow this to happen. Maybe she was happy I was gone. And my kids? You know what I mean. I think my kids play a massive part of my life. You know I missed out on a massive chunk of their life when we were in France together and they left and I got stuck in France for 18 months. You know what I mean. It's not all. It's been tough, it's not all roses, but you know what I mean. Would you change anything? You know, as a family, I don't think we would, because we're tight enough and we've got through it. Family, I don't think we would because we're tired enough and we've got through it.
Speaker 2:Paul Tito aka Fish. What an absolute pleasure to have some bit of time with you, mate, and what you're doing is absolutely fantastic, mate. I love having the privilege to reconnect with you, mate, and chew the fat over footy.
Speaker 1:Awesome Cheers, brother Pleasure.
Speaker 2:Here are my final three thoughts from my conversation with Paul. Number one input improves output. Feeling connected to a team is massive, according to Paul, and when players have input into the type of environment they want to be in, this improves their output, how prepared they are to work and apply themselves for the team. Number two Simplify. I love the way that Paul talked about how Vern and the rest of the coaches at the Blues looked at the past, about how the Blues used to play, and they took the best boots and said let's do more of this for longer. They then put in a really simple structure that revolved around we're doing less, but what we are doing we're doing better. This still means players are highly accountable, but their minds are less cluttered with erroneous detail, and fish are certainly prepared to coach and teach 200 clips to show someone the details if they're missing it. But the point stands do less but do it better.
Speaker 2:Number three questions show that you care. So in our own environments, how can we draw more questions out of our team? The Blues have a team room for the forwards, which they openly encourage questions. They welcome it, they promote it, they celebrate questions and challenging disagreements if required. So, even if they're hard to hear, be prepared to have more questions Going alongside. That is my own thoughts about if you want good questions, you, as a coach, have to be a good listener A great listener, in fact, because people ask more questions to those that listen. Until next time time, stay well.