Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
James O’Connor Unfiltered: A Player’s Perspective on What Makes—or Breaks—a Good Coach and Culture
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Trust and connection are the cornerstones of any winning sports culture. In this engaging episode, we're joined by rugby legend James O'Connor, who reflects on his incredible journey in professional sports. With nearly two decades under his belt, James shares his unique insights on how coaching significantly shapes team dynamics and individual performances.
Coaches play an instrumental role in creating an environment where players feel safe, valued, and heard. James emphasizes that open and honest communication is essential for building trust. He discusses the importance of authentic relationships and how they not only enhance function on the field but also cater to the emotional well-being of players. Throughout our conversation, listeners will gain invaluable advice on navigating difficult conversations, fostering a supportive atmosphere, and understanding the impact of coaching styles.
Furthermore, James underscores the need for a balanced approach to leadership that recognizes the individual talents of players while cultivating a cohesive team spirit. He sheds light on his experiences with various coaching techniques, urging coaches to embrace their vulnerabilities to lead more effectively and connect deeply with their teams.
Our discussion serves as a reminder that sports are about more than just competition—it's about the human connections that drive success. James illustrates that when players come together, supported by a culture of respect and care, they are more likely to thrive. This episode is a must-listen for coaches, athletes, and anyone interested in understanding the vital role of culture in achieving excellence. Tune in to discover powerful lessons that can transform your coaching journey, foster growth, and inspire greatness. If you found value in this episode, please subscribe, share your thoughts, and leave a review!
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The clock is ticking. I'm very aware of where I'm at in my career, where I'm at in my life, and I just appreciate the little things more than I did back then. The most important men in your life when you're playing sport are your coaches. The best thing a coach can do for a player is make them feel safe and valued. Or if you are pissed off about it, say it, say why, don't let it linger. To make it a habit. You have to touch on it often.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating leadership and culture. I'm Ben Herring and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's episode is with James O'Connor. James is the definition of a superstar debuting at Super Rugby at 17 years old and then debuting for Australia at 18 years old, rugby at 17 years old and then debuting for Australia at 18 years old. He's been to three World Cups and played for a host of teams the Force, the Rebels, london Irish Talon Sail Sharks, the Reds Crusaders and even one game for the West Harbour Pirates.
Speaker 2:Today, james shares his reflections on 17 years of a rollercoaster of a professional career. In particular, this is a case study for coaches, from a player's point of view, about what do the good coaches get right in their cultures that make all the difference to individuals and teams, and what mistakes do some coaches make that makes superstar players a far lesser version of themselves a far lesser version of themselves. Lovely to have you here, mate, on the Coaching Culture podcast. First of all, mate, we always like to ask this question is what's your definition of culture? Clearly, you've been around heaps of them. We'd love to hear from a player's perspective what a good culture looks like or what is culture to you.
Speaker 1:For me, the first word that comes to culture is belonging. So, like I've obviously been involved in many teams, many different coaching structures, being sort of all around the world, for me, like everyone's trying to build a good culture, winning culture, successful culture, I think a good culture for me is when all the players and the coaches in the organization like there's that feeling of that care, like caring, connection, but you feel like you're an integral part of the system, like I literally put it back. So when you feel safe and like you belong somewhere and you're seen and you're valued, then that's like that's everything for me integral part, mate.
Speaker 2:That's like how can a player feel like they've got an integral part? What does that feel like for a player?
Speaker 1:Well, it feels you feel safe. So you feel like your voice is heard and you feel like, obviously, even we look at the weekend sometimes a game doesn't go your way. But when you feel like you belong and you're valued, then you know that the coaches sort of see that, hey, things happen, rugby's chaos. There's so much going on. Like we have starter plays, we have like a lot of different ways to control the game, but at the end of the day it's so much chaos. It's which team can you know be the most calm in it and control it the best way possible? So that's I mean for me the best way possible. So I mean for me that whole belonging and safe period come from.
Speaker 1:Like there's that trust element, like, hey, you're our guy, we're going to put time and effort into you, we're going to stick with you, we're going to you know, we're going to ride the highs and lows together and you do that as a team.
Speaker 1:Like I think it's so integral having a good leadership group there and then that filters through with the coaches. So there's just consistent dialogue, not too many mind games. It's like people you know like well, like people in place for like their mind games and in terms of like in a training session or to get a reaction from you know players or the group or whatnot. I think the best thing like a coach can do for a player is make them feel safe and valued. That hey, like whether you're the number one or you're the number two, and like you need to know sort of where you're, you are in that pecking order. And then also like how you can improve and how you can get to the spot you want to be at, like you got to be very clear on your goals together not too many mind games, mate.
Speaker 2:Have you had a few?
Speaker 1:um coaches give you some mind games oh, like there's been some good and some bad and like a whole mixture, but I think, and not so much, like again, not mind games, but honesty is so important, like the players, like we can feel it, like you know, when someone's not telling you the full truth, like I would say the best coaches I've had have just delivered it straight. I'm like just tell me straight, like what I need to work on, or why I'm not getting picked, or where I'm at in this, like what is my role, so then I can fully digest it, even if it's a support role, even if it's, you know, coming off the pine, or even if you're just a squad player or you're falling out of favor. Just let me know where I'm at, what I need to improve on, but be honest with me about the things that I need to do to improve or where I'm falling short, because then I've got something to build from and I've got a role on the team and I feel like I'm still valued.
Speaker 2:Because it's pretty easy as a coach to sort of get caught in a waffle, isn't it, and sort of give vague, grey answers. But from a player's perspective, just someone saying to you mate, you're our number two choice at the moment. X, y and Z, that is value day. That makes you feel part of that environment massively right when that happens 100%.
Speaker 1:I can imagine, like from I've never been a head coach, I've done some assistant sort of stuff and like you want the players to all feel happy or you want everyone to feel like sort of I guess from their point of view, that they're a part of it still. But if you sugarcoat them, where you don't give the full amount of information, like you know, we, we feel that we know that there's something, that there's like almost there's some dirty laundry under there. I'm like if you just honestly what's happening where we sit, where we need to improve on, like that is actually so much better than false hope of like, because then the next week comes and you're still not doing it and you're like, well, here's the clips. Like I'm, I'm doing this, this guy isn't like you told me, if I did this, like why am I still on the question?
Speaker 1:Whereas if you just said at the start like this is how we see it, this is where we see your value. Like can you bring this to the session, even if it's running the non-23? Like can you really set the week up for the team? Because, as we both know, like it takes a whole squad to win a competition and that's where things can get acidic when the message isn't quite there, and maybe that started from a conversation from a coach to a player, so the player thinks he's in a different spot than what he is and then there's tension between you know the non-23 and you know the starters and the bench players and the other squad players. It can really breed almost, yeah, acidity at training and stuff like that, and that's where you've got to be on that same page and humming together and playing for the team.
Speaker 2:Matt, I love that word acidity, because people often talk about the poison environment in the change room, but that acidity which just erodes the team spirit and the team culture, isn't it? Yeah, and it starts from the coaches clear comms, fantastic way.
Speaker 1:It can fester too.
Speaker 1:It can start small and then bigger and bigger.
Speaker 1:It only takes one or two players, then they pull three, then they pull four and again I don't feel like there's been times where I've been acidic and I've had to really reflect, and I've seen it in other players as well Since I've got older.
Speaker 1:You can see when there's a really top player who might be a little bit out of favor or fallen out of form. He hasn't been given the clearest comms to what he's done wrong, so he doesn't know how to get back, or he can just feel that he's on the out. And then you can see at training maybe he doesn't do the the starter plays that the opposition's doing correctly, or maybe he slows the you know the starting 15s ball down too much and gets a little bit too like individual at training, or or maybe he doesn't set the same standards he usually would. So I feel like if you can communicate that and again I can imagine would be bloody tough job because you know you're a coach, you're the father of the group but I would say, if you deal in honesty, guys just want to know where they're at and we'll make them be not okay with it, but at least they've got a starting point of where do I go from here gee, mate, I love it.
Speaker 2:I love that reflection on yourself too, mate, about, um, that you've potentially been acidic over your career. Um. Well, what's your reflections on that, mate? Because I think it's pretty well documented that some of your early stages as a young superstar um potentially fell out of favor with coaches and stuff like that. So what, what is your reflection on that acidity piece, and what would you do different if you could go back and do it again, and what would you want coaches to do different for you?
Speaker 1:okay, that's the thing. I don't know if it was the like, especially when I first started, I just couldn't communicate what I was seeing. Like I was a young player who had a vision and I saw the game differently to possibly what my coaches were seeing. But then it wasn't delivered to me. Like here's the game plan, but it wasn't complete. So I'm like there's holes and floors in this. So now you're asking me to deliver this on the field, but you haven't given me the full recipe to be able to do this. So that's when I would feel like it's not me against them, but I'm like you guys are setting me up to fail. So then I would feel, you know, you feel hurt. And then you go out there and deliver a performance and you think you've done well.
Speaker 1:But there's parts of your game that you don't even know, that you don't know about yet. Like when you're young trying to run a game, like I didn't know how to manage a game when I was 21, 25, that sort of stuff. But I felt like I didn't, I had lost them and I didn't have their support. So then you feel like you know you're on an island on your own and you know, like you know, even after a loss, like you walk in sometimes when you haven't played well and you feel like everyone's looking, everyone's talking about you, everyone's, you know, whispering about you. They're not, no one really cares about themselves.
Speaker 1:But that can. I reckon that's when you can sort of get acidic and um, then you withdraw into yourself a little bit and maybe stand. You stand as a training drop a little bit. Or you go to that point where it's like, oh, he doesn't care about me, so like I don't, I don't even care anyway. Meanwhile, I've always been a person who cared very deeply about the group and about you know, about performing and the team environment. But you can almost talk yourself out of it that you don't, because you don't want to be hurt, you don't want to get hurt in the situation, so you pretend you don't care, which opens a whole other kettle of fish yeah, doesn't it?
Speaker 2:so do you reckon, like a lot of that comes from potentially uh, coaches misreading your level of care? Yeah, that's it. And and what would you say if you were to reflect on yourself? Because obviously, there won't be many um stars as the quality of yourself when you're a young man, but, like for star players in any team, they often can be misread by coaches, right like in terms of oh, this guy doesn't potentially care where you're. You're saying there's a something underneath that which is a protective mechanism to because you're scared of something else. Is that correct?
Speaker 1:so I've had like one in the past. It's like, okay, so why was I doing? Why did I go individual? So I'm like, well, you guys have me in this thing to create, right, like that's my main key role. I'm collecting on a team 10 years ago, like that's what my role has been is the creator, and I'm like our tapping shape isn't good enough. I've told you we need to put more time into this shape so that there's more people on the field making decisions instead of just me. But we're not going anywhere now. So now I'm thinking, well, okay, it's on me now, like the guys are relying on me.
Speaker 1:So I put a few kicks, or when I would go individual to, because I thought that's what the team needed of me, was me to make a big play.
Speaker 1:So then I would go for a big play and then it would be, you know, would review it and like sometimes it would come off, but other times it wouldn't.
Speaker 1:There was a period of a couple games where it didn't and the games got reviewed and I'm like, oh, like you're going individual, you don't care about the team shape, you don't care about, you know, um, the team's game plan and whatnot, and I'm like man, do you not see, like I don't want to do that, like I'm doing this because I'm trying my guts out to do something.
Speaker 1:If I don't, we're going to lose the ball and they're going to kick a corner and beat us. So I'm doing this like I'm putting myself out there and you're seeing that as me, like taking away from the group when I'm trying to really help the group, so that one hurt and then getting dropped from that point of view as well, after there was no comms, it came out of nowhere, then getting dropped, saying that I'm not a team player and I'm like, what do you mean, man? Like if you'd like, if you'd listen to me before when I told you we needed a bit more shape there, I wouldn't have left the system. But now I'm leaving the system because there isn't enough in the shape and now I'm getting punished for it like that one. I remember that one hurt.
Speaker 2:Hey, I was like oh, oh my, what if you you could go back now and have a look at the comms? What would you do different?
Speaker 1:Oh, communication. Again, it's getting in a room and being able to understand as well, like, what are the coaches actually saying, what are they trying to do? And like, how do I get my point across? In terms of, like, break it down so it's easier to digest, because everyone sees the game differently. But then I'm like, if I'm going to be running this game and I feel like we're missing something here, it's like just a simple conversation of like, man to man, like, because I really need to work, we really need to work on this. So I've got more options so I can manage this game better for us because 80% of it is working.
Speaker 1:But if you don't have that other like the little, I guess, transition pieces, the game can fall apart pretty easily. So, again, communication, which is what I didn't learn until I was a little bit older how to have a clear conversation, not have my back up against the wall when I felt like someone was going at me. I would take everything personally. You know you've had coaches where you're going through clips and then they pause the button just before a pass. They're like three on two here. You should have passed this one. I'm like, mate in the moment, like, go back play at full speed. I'm telling you right now you would not pass that ball, but I would take a personal attack. Meanwhile I could have just been like, yeah, I can see what you're saying here, but I'm always going to back my first instincts. Maybe we can work on that a little bit at training so I can take a step back further or I can have my winger up a bit flatter for that option.
Speaker 1:But that was my issue growing up was one. I couldn't explain what I was seeing because a lot of my game was just based off pure feel, pure instinct. I didn't really have the logic or the understanding of why I was doing what I was doing until I got a little bit older and studied the game a bit more. And then again just the conversations of it's not an attack, people aren't after you.
Speaker 1:I guess a lot of that played into it as well, because I didn't have the greatest relationship with the media when I was younger either, so it always felt like it put me into the world. So then when my own coach or like maybe a senior player would say something to me, I was like man, do you not see how much I care for this group, for you to take what I've done as, like me, being selfish. I was trying to do the most like selfless act and put it all on myself to make this happen, whereas, again, rugby is a team sport. If I did it again, I probably would and I'd stick more to system and be like, okay, maybe one out of five I'll do that move, but I won't make it all about me.
Speaker 2:Mate, you touched on some amazing things. I just reflected on what you just said there, that you you have a feel for the game. Do you reckon it would have been a cool question to a coach to ask you instead of pausing and going? You know, can't you see the 3v2 here? Do you reckon it might have been for a guy like you, who's a very instinctive player, to ask, like, what are you feeling here, james? Like what's your feel here?
Speaker 1:well, that's a better question for you and an instinctive player like they would have drawn out a lot more discussion and not got your back up more well I think those, those little conversations and I've had coaches have done that great as well feel is a big word for me, because that is sort of how I read the game. Obviously you have your vision and you understand if I do this, he'll come up and that should open that. So I know that's like you've got your little triggers, but at the end of the day as well, I'm gauging defenders and microseconds and shapes and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 1:But, yeah, sitting down and having I've had coaches who have sat down with me and had these conversations and it's been more of a not accusatory, of like why didn't you do that? It's like, yeah, what did you see here to not play to this part? And I was like, oh, you know well, I felt like this moment or this, or I saw this player do that and he spooked it. So, yeah, doing it again. Maybe I could take a step and do a double pump and know that. Learn the opposition a bit better, knowing that this winger does like to pretend to come higher than sit back because he got me, and making that less personally, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm a sensitive guy well, here's the other thing I picked up from that little conversation piece you said you would appreciate.
Speaker 2:You appreciate when coaches have a conversation man to man. Have you in your experience where that is really important? Do you feel like the best coaches in the world talk to players as man or woman, like man-to-man or woman-to-woman, as opposed to coach-to-player necessarily, or higher status to lower status? Do you feel the best ones have a really good way of delivering man-on-man? Is that something you've found in a good culture?
Speaker 1:This doesn't go against what I've said before. It has to be authentic. Not all head coaches are the greatest strategic minds. A lot of the greatest head coaches are more man managers and they're the ones who can have those conversations with you, whereas a lot of other head coaches as well a great strategic mind that have a very clear way of how they want to play the game and utilize each of the players in the group. So it's more about, I would say, being authentic to what you actually are and then, obviously, being a coach as well, knowing yourself and what your strengths are and I feel like that's what some of the greatest coaches I've had have done is like this is the area they're really good at.
Speaker 1:Now I'm going to put you in touch with this person to focus on this and to hone your skill here and like again, those conversations man-to-man are very important to me, especially when you're in a driver's position, because essentially, they're giving you the keys to you know, deliver the game plan. So then, when you're left out of the key conversations of what the actual game plan looks like or the why of the game plan, you're out there sort of running blind a little bit as well, without the depth of knowing. Okay, well, we've tweaked it up to do this, but why I'm not seeing the picture that you're seeing. Can you explain to me why we've changed this or why you want me to do that? Oh, okay, great, explain to me why we've changed this or why you want me to do that. Oh okay, great, I understand that. Cool, let's go like bang, I'm all on board, I can run this for you.
Speaker 2:I can deliver this for you what would your advice be made to, say, a coach who isn't details and strategically, their sharper strength and they're talking to like someone like yourself, who, who has got good strategy, good awareness of the game, how would you, what piece of advice would you give coaches that are like that when they're dealing with you know, a playmaker that knows the game better than them? Any thoughts on how you'd like a coach to manage you if they're that?
Speaker 1:way. I've had some great coaches who have, who have had that like it's. I think that's where you build that care component, where it's like look man, I, man, I'm trusting you to run. The coach is saying to me I'm trusting you to run this team and I'm trusting, I'm picking you because I know what you can do and that's why you're here to deliver what you can do.
Speaker 1:But if I'm going to give you this, these keys to run this plan, there's got to be that commitment from you that you're going to go out there and leave it all on the field each week. I will trust you to make those decisions. If they don't all come off, that's cool. But as long as I know that you're doing this for the right reasons. I've had a conversation with a coach who said that he's like I'll back you to the hills even if five of ten passes don't go to hand.
Speaker 1:But if you've practiced that skill we've done it at training it isn't just off the cuff. There's stuff that is going to be off the cuff, but if you're delivering the game plan with what we've practiced and what we've seen, then I'll back you to the hills. But there's got to be that care element from both of us and then as well, having those hard conversations of like when I haven't done it, being like man, what's going on? I need this from you If you're not delivering in this area, or if you're not going to put your body on the line in D, or if you're not going to take this hard carry, and just then the boys won't follow you. You show the guys that you're the right man to run and lead this team, and then they'll support you and I'll support you.
Speaker 2:Mate. I think that's a great approach to take it, mate. Mate, when you look back at your career, you've gone from like australia, uk, france, now new zealand. If you had to cherry pick some of the best like cultural pieces, environments you've been in, what would be some of the standout environments you've been out in and and why do they stand out for you? So, essentially, if you're going to go into coaching now and you're going to say I'm going to take that from that, that environment and that from that environment, which are the couple that stand out for you?
Speaker 1:that's a good question. I think a lot of, a lot of the best stuff I've been involved in have been player driven. So it's been like, okay, let's build a thing, so the coaches will like almost facilitate the thing, but the wording and like what we want to do and even like, yeah, the key words, the key feeling again has been brought in by the players. Even some of the visual structures and and cues have been brought in by the players and then it's been sort of finessed by the coaches and then it's so important to keep touching on that so it becomes like your calling structure and your language in your team. It becomes a part of that year, so it bonds you in.
Speaker 1:It's not just like a side piece where, okay, that was a bit of fluff, now rugby's here and something's not happening, something's not working. Let's forget about that and just focus on this. I think it's so important to keep things into perspective, like we've made a plan, we've set a plan, this is our theming, this is how we want to do things like not be, not react. Yeah, I guess that's probably the biggest thing is not react so consistently reflecting on our themes, consistently reflecting on what did we say, like, what were our key analysis points? Like converting in the 22, like our season exits, like that's sort of the rugby side of it and then the cultural side of things. I just think the more authentic it can be as well, like you know, just getting the boys together for a couple drinks or a family date or that golf like the like the more authentic it is where sort of it's being sort of player led but then the coaches come and get involved. I think is the greatest.
Speaker 1:Like, like you know, when you go to organize fun it's never the same, like it feels sort of like a pool yeah, compulsory fun yeah, compulsory fun, but I feel like also when it's like you've got your rugby, but you can separate rugby from the bonding, from the culture as well. So there's time for the guys to get away and connect naturally, and then you put on. What they did really well in the uk was you'd have like sort of team events every sort of four weeks where it was no matter rain, hail or shine, this day we're all coming, there's's no excuses, no one's not coming, we're all in on this day and this night, and that, blah, blah, blah. So it's sticking to that, no matter how we were going in the season. It's like there's rugby, there's outside of rugby, there's connecting on your own, and then also there's that time to just fully disconnect from rugby, from the group, just with your family. There's got to be, yeah, you've got to find that balance.
Speaker 2:I agree, mate, with the UK. I think those teams over there certainly have a. They put some of those events in in the start of the season. They say these are our big party days where we're having, regardless if we've lost every game or not, this is locked in. And they lock it in at the start of the season and the buy-in from the players generally is outstanding and I think there's real value in doing that and then saying to the team no matter what's happening, this is a team event and we're going to go hard on it. Do you think that's important to just have those markers in a calendar where we go rain, hail or shine?
Speaker 1:We're coming together, we markers and a calendar where we go rain hail or shine, we're coming together and we're joining each other's company on this day, yeah, and I think it's easier to do that in like your France and your England, because it is sort of their longer seasons, so it's sort of all year round and you get a couple more breaks week in, week out. But even with Super, I feel like it's so important to. The closer you are as a group, like off the field, and I know like when I'm having fun, the closer you are as a group, like off the field and I know like when I'm having fun, when I'm in my flow, when I'm feeling joy and I'm happy and I'm going into training wanting to play rugby, I play better rugby, whereas if I'm just in the grind consistently and rugby becomes my whole life, you know you ride that wave of the wins and the losses and then something's not quite working. You're almost like sometimes just to step away from it. But less can be more. Then you come back with a fresh mindset and those little passes that aren't sticking, or offloads ah, do start to stick those D reads that you're not making. You've got to know your players a little bit more, not that you work harder for them, you just build more of a connection and you have a bit more belief in each other. You want to go to work for each other a little bit deeper. Uh, yeah, I think it's.
Speaker 1:I guess it's changed for me, because everyone would always say, like it happens so quick, man, you might be like, you'll see, it's so quick and I'll always be like, yeah, whatever, like, but it's still 18, 19, 20, but my career has gone so quickly. So I think the older you get, you do sort of realize like, what, how, like what a pleasure it is to play, like to do this as a job. So you do. Those little moments are so much more connected as well, like when I was younger. Obviously I'm drinking every weekend, whereas now it's probably just at team events, you know. So those moments are so much mean, so much more to me than it's just, you know, the usual. So to come in, come in with that and even just the mentality of again like the clock is ticking, like I'm very aware of sort of where I'm at in my career, where I'm at in my life, and I just appreciate the little things more than I did.
Speaker 1:Back. Then it wasn't so much, well, it's not so much about the outcome. Now it's more the process, it's the everyday living. If I wasn't in this mindset now, I probably, if I came on a week and would have destroyed more this one thing, I would do the complete opposite. And it still hurts. It bloody hurts, I think. Probably sometimes these losses hurt more now because of the place I'm at, but also with where I'm at in my life and with the balance I have off the field, I can still separate it. I'll do the review bloody hard to watch, chat to the game drivers, our coaches, and then we park that aside and it's like you're not just one game, you're not two games, you're not even one season, like you're the sum of all your parts. So don't judge yourself on just one sort of moment, and that sort of puts things into perspective for me.
Speaker 2:I just love that. Mate, don't judge yourself for one little moment. I actually heard a quote from you the other day. Well, you said this quote. You said you're inviting life to surprise me and I thought that was a beautiful quote. You said I don't know when you said that, but I've written it down here and it just seems like to me, mate, you've had a real cool journey of late too. Just that reflective piece dwelling on your young days, because I can only imagine when you start that young as a player, it's a real whirlwind and it's only until you get to now you're sort of reflecting back and it feels like you're doing a really good job of just reviewing what's come before and then taking the bits you want and leaving some bits behind and making all those little checks. Would that be a correct statement for you?
Speaker 1:It is. It's fair to say. It doesn't mean like the dark times don't hurt they do. But the reality I have now is that they happen like I have faith. So I'm like they happen for a reason and a lot of the most beautiful things that have come from me have come from the real tough moments or dark moments, where I've actually reflected and not even improved my game, but my life, but my whole world. So the outlet can change, don't get me wrong. But I still feel that pain and that it's still bloody tough. But I know that the sun's going to come up the next morning and I know that my fundamentals are strong.
Speaker 1:Because I set my week up well, I put my work in my diet's good. Because I set my week up well, I put my work in my diet's good. I train hard, I do all the little things. It doesn't mean it's going to work for me every week, but usually if you put the steps in place, then the rugby element will. And that is a big part of my life is rugby and performing well and doing that. But that's just only one part of my life. When I get caught just in the rugby element, that's when you ride the highs and lows too much. Yeah, letting life surprise me. It surprised me on the way here.
Speaker 2:Well, mate, you're about to undertake an RV adventure around the Lower South Island. Mate, You've got to be prepared for some surprises around that trip.
Speaker 1:How good Me, the wife and the dog just cruising through six days just letting life find me find some water, walking, some beaches, even nice little coffee spot in the morning. Yeah, it's gonna be great mate.
Speaker 2:Well, I'll tell you a little surprise I had today when I was. I just jumped on LinkedIn, mate, and I had a legends card of yourself has popped up from West Harbour Pirates Rugby Club. I just saw that today and I then had a little look and saw you've only played the one game for West Harbour.
Speaker 1:One game, yeah.
Speaker 2:One game and then you get the status of a legendary card, special gold card edition of you, and then, funnily enough, underneath it said once a pirate, always a pirate. So one game gets your gold card status. That's a lovely little surprise from a club.
Speaker 1:That was a nice reflection when I saw that as well, because they actually came in a tough time in my life too. Oh, really, just lost the Lions series. Just lost the Lions series or it's just coming back from yeah, I'm pretty sure it was the Lions or'd just come back from a torn hammy. But I needed, like I needed, something to help me get back into that wallabies. I needed to sort of find some form and, um, yeah, they, they pretty much threw me a lifeline there and it was a.
Speaker 1:It was an awesome game, like just the support I got from them and it just just played the one game. I did enough in that one game to sort of get back into the squad Right to get your gold card, yeah, and the gold jersey. So it was quite fitting For me. It was awesome because I hadn't played much club footy sort of growing up. Obviously, I've been with brothers my whole life, but I hadn't actually played any first grade games at that stage. The last time I played was during high school. So this was would have been 2013 or 2012 or 2013 that I played with the Pirates.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 2013.
Speaker 1:2013,. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so it was the first taste I got, of sort of you could just feel their comrade. Like you know, when you play in a professional environment, it's one thing, but then when you play them, a professional environment it's one thing, but then when you plan the boys who are playing club footy, they build, like these, even deeper connections as well. You know, like they're playing just from for the love of the game, like that's what I've loved so much the last couple years. Playing with brothers is just turning up. Tuesday, thursday, the boys just genuinely, even before a game, like the music's blaring, they're all like like we had finals this year and our twos had already won the final the day before.
Speaker 1:So we turn up to the clubhouse about to, you know, go play our final and they're all drinking, listening to music, like, not like in a good way, like coming in and everyone's happy and vibing and it just reminds you as well, like is a game and also like you play your best when one going back to that belonging and feeling safe, but when you're happy too. So it's like you can't control really much on the field. It's all a lot of the game, like I said, is 80 of it, is chaos, a bounce of the ball like someone falls off this tackle. A defender does something. You don't think. They overfold like there's nothing really planned, planned. You're just making decisions and reacting. So I feel like when I'm in that vibe of just more flowy and happy and content and with a smile on my face, you tend to rub, you know, wriggle out of things a bit better and what and what do you?
Speaker 2:how do you feel, like you said earlier, that when you played for some teams you felt like you had to do a lot, but when you go back to, like, say, the west harbors and the brothers, when you're, it's club footy again and you're clearly, uh, a different standard up. Do you feel the pressure that you had to do more there, or how was that different?
Speaker 1:I did in the west harbor game, because I was like I've got to stand out here and it wasn't like so much do more, it was just like like I've got, I want to be on, I want to deliver for this team. You know, um, but with brothers it's more my, my demeanor there is just almost not staring the ship, but I'm just again, I'm just just just playing. It's like not it's park footy, but it's just back to the days of like just seeing pictures and creating and we've got simple starter plays and we're just changing the backfield and manipulating and it's just, yeah, it's enjoyable footy. Like I'm not trying to think, I'm not trying too hard, I'm just playing. And it's probably a good reflection for me now, just talking to you about that. It's I'm playing the game just as like as a conductor, where sometimes I can go wrong, when I can go a little bit individual and try to create too much.
Speaker 1:That's a good reflection from the weekend as well, when I'm actually just serving the team. That's what I feel like. I do it rather still with the mind like a chip on my shoulder to be like if there's an opportunity for me to run, like run, that's run for us, that's a skill of my game, but I'm more just like moving the ball to the right parts of the field, getting our electric backs the ball. We've got a great packet for others too, so letting you know, kicking corners and putting the ball in front so they can go to their mall and just yeah, it's, I've got it.
Speaker 2:I'm I definitely love it with that one mate, I reckon that's a really uh, really interesting concept we just talked about with being the conductor of a team because, like a conductor, there's a little bit of license there to go off script. But if you go off script too much with your waving of your wand as a conductor, the band doesn't know what they're listening to. But now and then, if you've got the right feel and you've got the eye contact and you know it's on, you can do something potentially. But on the whole you largely stick to script. Otherwise, if you're too individual with your waving, everyone's all the everyone that's following you goes off right. Yeah, I think that's a cool analogy for, uh, for a coach to talk about to a star playmaker. Here, mate, you're the conductor, everyone's following you, and if you're doing your own thing, people won't be able to follow yeah, and even with those connections and building like your team's got to trust you as well.
Speaker 1:So it's like so making sure like when you are conducting you're actually you're putting the team in the right parts. They, they know like they try. Again, it comes back to sort of that trust, like you can go off script and I will go off script when I see something, yeah, but if you're going off script too much, then the guys are like don't know what shape to fall back into and it gets a bit harder to scout and then we might start throwing too many offloads or we might try to play a game that isn't ours and mate now that.
Speaker 2:Are you having it now, just having an eye towards coaching for the future? I know it's still time away, but I know you've done a little bit with churchy school.
Speaker 1:Um, how's it gone, man, and what little, what little philosophies are you developing from your perspective and experiences you've had, that you'd probably look that these are good things to take through to coaching with your experience with, like churchy school well, I think one of the biggest things I learned through that was even just the way I deliver a message, like not again, like I've said, like talking man to man to people, but as well allowing other players to play the way that they see the game as well.
Speaker 1:Just because I have an imprint of what I think will work and what's worked for me in the past doesn't mean it will work for them. So I'm like having that dialogue with your key ball players and your centers and like, what are you seeing here? Like this is what I think, but look, let's do it your way. Let's see, okay, cool, all right, let's stick with that, all right. Let's see, okay, cool, all right, let's stick with that, all right, that's not working. What are you seeing here? Why don't you try this? Just try this at training. See how you feel. Come back to me after and seeing that look in their eye when they they get that little aha moment, they look at you like, yeah, there we go.
Speaker 1:Like that just opens up just another little option for them. I think one of the things I learned probably the maybe the most was as well, like you have to make it a habit, you have to touch in it often. So I might put energy into one player for 40 minutes, but it's probably better to just put five minutes into them consistently every week on a particular skill or even just the visual cue, instead of drilling something into them that maybe they can't hold their concentration for as long as I'm teaching them, so they're zoned out or they've clicked off or they've got school to do or they've got other things in their life. Just because I've said something doesn't mean it's going to be and you have it for them. So it's touching on things consistently and, again, it's all about building bonds and connections with your players.
Speaker 2:Did you have a coach? Do that to you in particular.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've had quite a few coaches who have done that. One that comes to mind probably Jimmy Mackay. When I first came back to the Reds yeah, I thought he was a funny guy.
Speaker 2:Walking around in his board shorts and jandals.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we both had a van at the same time. But just the way he would introduce little things and like even all the catch up for coffees and would draw pictures and moves and stuff. But you'd always pull it back to like where we were going and where he sort of could see I could improve, or like where he'd think the group could develop and then we'd play with ideas together. Just the way he would change up his delivery on different things I really enjoyed. I had a lot of trust for the man. When I feel like someone has my best interest at heart as well, then that's where I can build those deep connections with. And again, he's not the only one I've had. Even with Deans I was too young to really get to. Uh, probably like a lot of the seeds he planted in me only sprouted 10 years later is that right?
Speaker 2:what sort of seeds are we talking?
Speaker 1:just some like a lot of wisdom off the field, on the field, like his big thing with me was again serving the team and the 10, being selfless, and even decisions of where I was going to move to in terms of my next deal, and not chasing the money, like if Woody will find you like go to the place that's going to suit your rugby and your development, and who's going to be here and what's the comment.
Speaker 1:Like little things like that, and then, yeah, a lot of things away from Woody. It wasn't until I sort of reflected and got to a point where I was like, oh well, like I'd sort of reflected and got to a point where I was like, oh well, like if only I had listened Not had listened, but had to be able to understand what he was saying. And again, I've had other great coaches that have taught me a lot footy-wise as well, like in terms of shapes and structures, and there's been a lot of players who have done the same. Even you know, when I first came back with Brad, like how direct he was with me, I loved it, yeah.
Speaker 1:You responded to that, yeah, I responded because he just told me straight up, like just straight up, what was what and I enjoyed that because I'm like, okay, I know where I sit, I know what's happening. I think what I've really liked as well, like with Rob, like he's such an approachable guy and he like and you can feel the wisdom coming off him and even after that loss, you never know how someone's going to react and respond to certain things. And the way I thought they handled the review as a whole coaching group, the way he led, that I thought was exactly what we needed. And then obviously that filters down to the rest of the leaders in the group in terms of how they stepped up and then the rest of the team can follow.
Speaker 1:I've had some good footy minds in the UK. Even like my last, coaches at the Reds were great in terms of how Kissy delivered a message. Like Brad, I thought his rugby knowledge was awesome. I loved having conversations. Zane Hilton, like some of his delivery stuff, was really great. I mean, I've had a lot of good coaches and I've had some coaches that I've struggled with. Um, and they probably struggled with me as well. I think the older sort of I've got and the more I can understand as well, like we are all human, yeah, and we are, and we all see the game differently. I just I really appreciate, like honestly, that's my biggest thing that I would say to a coach.
Speaker 2:What's the bit that rubs you the wrong way with? You don't have to name names, but what's the coaching trait that just irks you back and causes you friction with coaches?
Speaker 1:Well, I'm being talked down to. I think when you get to a certain age, you're like to be honest. I was going to lie there, I was going to be 17 or 18 when a coach would talk down to me. It really rubbed me the wrong way. I thought I was about that age. Well, I still was a young man. So I'm like, talk to me as a human, as like, not as an equal, but as an equal on a human level. I still want to play for you. I want to learn from you, but if I feel like you don't respect me, then we're done already, like I'm gone or like you've lost me. That would be the one thing.
Speaker 2:Um, I think that's a big one, mate. I I think that's a. I think that's actually a common coaching trait. Um, I think a lot of coaches especially when you're young you feel because coaches have got egos too right and they and they sometimes struggle when people are talking at them. They get defensive as well and get back up and then act in a way which isn't actually them, but under pressure. That's how it comes across.
Speaker 1:Yeah, especially if you hadn't earned your stripes yet as well, which I hadn't. But then I was delivering stuff on the field where I was like like yeah, so that sort of rubbed me the wrong way. When people would like, you can always feel that it's like an energetic thing, even like there's certain words that would be used. Instead of like almost like do as I say, like you will do what I say, it's like fuck you man. Like you want to treat me like okay, sweet. Like you want to treat me like okay, sweet, let's play this game. Yes, if you get older, you can see through sort of stuff and people don't talk to you the same way. When you get to 30, it's like the coaching is very differently, but then it becomes a thing of like hey, just be honest with me. Like what is it that you require from me? What do you like? What are you saying? Like what is, how do we get this team to where we need to be? Like because I'm invested, man, if I'm here with you, if I'm playing in your team, like especially if I come to a new club, or like I'm hit, like I want to win and I want us to do well, like what? How do you see? What are you saying? Like, what do you feel? And like, okay, you're riding a low as well. Talk to me about that. Like that you're struggling with that. Like, especially if I'm your captain or in your leadership group, like show, don't put a mask on Show. Like I feel like players really respond to. Like if you're upset, like, explain why you're upset to the group, let them see behind just the coach or just you know the illusion of this rugby person, like open up. I think that really builds bond and care and that connection. Again, again, that's when you want to go and play for someone, like coaches that are really you know there's stories about some of the great coaches and you just want to go out and play for them.
Speaker 1:Cech was great in that way with me, like even just when he brought me back to that World Cup in 2019, just how honest he was with me and how he just instilled certain things where I was like I really want to play for this man. I love what he's saying, I love how much he cares. I love that he's taken deflecting from the playing group to put himself in the media to get the headlines so the players don't get punished, or like he's copping a lot of this and also, like the way he would describe it, like he's a very passionate man and you can see that through the way he speaks. Like he'll shed a tear, he'll get pissed off and poke you in the chest. Like you see, like when you're around him, you know what he's, you know where you're at, and I love knowing where I'm at.
Speaker 1:And I used to joke when I was at the reds. I'd sometimes I'd look back. When I first came back, I would just look to see where brad was at and, depending on what his energy was like, I'd be like, hey, there's something going on, it's either good or bad. So like I could really gauge where we're at by just the mood he was in.
Speaker 2:Is that right?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So then I'd see like he, because he'd wear it on his face and his sleeve, and I love that, because then I'd just be able to look and be like, okay, something's going, okay, these guys are fucking around over there, or actually, look at this drill, we've dropped six balls. Or okay, we're not doing what we need to say, we're doing, but again, just but then being able to communicate that and share that with the group.
Speaker 2:Mate. That's awesome. And just a little fact on that time period with the Reds, when you were captain, you were undefeated as captain, right. So you obviously read Brad, pretty damn good, undefeated that winning 2019,.
Speaker 1:I think it was or 2021. Well, I was co-captain, co -captain, but Liam was injured.
Speaker 2:It doesn't count. And the one game he did come back for, that's the one you lost right and you weren't officially captain, but it wasn't how it was.
Speaker 2:but yeah, I'll take that, mate. It's actually funny when you say this, that sort of stuff about reading people's faces. I reckon there's definite energy flow with coaches, that head coaches particularly set the tone for everything that follows, and so to be able to read a coach is like reading dad at home. You know when dad's in the mood and you just go righto, brothers and sisters, let's just not take the piss here at dinner, let's eat properly and do it right for now, because you can read that guy I think that's huge what you said there.
Speaker 1:Like the rest, the team responds off your leader, your head coach and again, so like if they're authentic and they're always sort of this way, you're still comfortable, even if they're a little bit on edge or whatever, because you're used to that, or if they're a bit grumpy and that's their coaching style, or they're happy and that's their coaching style, or they're very talkative. You know, everyone sort of gets a little bit rattled and it filters down to the other coaches and you hear the way they deliver their review or their preview, or the way they coach. They might be a bit more barky or they might be a bit more quiet or like, and then it filters to the players and we're literally just feel like we're man, we feel everything, even if you don't know, even if you're not even aware that you're feeling it, you're still feeling it and responding to what they're doing and it's changing what you're like, how you're living your life and your day and your afternoon and your session.
Speaker 1:It's a heavy statement you know, again, again, like it's saying a lot of reflections, I understand like I reflect life and that it genuinely changes everything. So that would be the other, probably biggest tip I'll give is, again, if you, if they are like just being aware sometimes, if you can come back to more of a neutral or if, or if you are pissed off about it, say it. Say why, don't let it linger, say it, get it out there and let the boys understand what it is, because when you're in that unknown, that place of not knowing what's going on or why something's happening, yeah, your mind can wander.
Speaker 2:I actually like it, mate, because there's a bigger reflection to this too. As coaches you are let's start your example you're actually coaching something bigger than just the game. By expressing your emotions and your feelings like that, you're actually showing to young men in this case, or young woman, how you it's okay to do it and and doing it as a good thing. And expressing yourself like that is actually leading the way for young people that are under you to understand how to do things. How to communicate better is to share what you're feeling, just say it, and succinctly and authentically, and that's actually teaching the next generation how to be better communicators 100%.
Speaker 1:The head coach is the father of the group, like when you're, I guess when you're growing up, your biggest role, model and impression on your life is your dad. And then my other closest ones were coaches. Like I had a coach from under 12 to 15 who taught me so much about the game, like rugby, wise rugby league. John Dallin then also just as a man, like how he moved in the world, how he spoke, how he could flow and add some humor to things and still poke someone in the chest, but do it with love, like these things, like I picked up from watching this man and being coached by him. And then now my first 15 coaches and you know I had peter gladhill first, who I loved working with him and oh man, I've got shit, I've got so many and then got damaged as well who mean him headbutted so much in grade 12.
Speaker 1:But we have to respect for each other that we could.
Speaker 1:We just get it out there like no, you do this, this, but I would headbutt and then. But we could hug and shake it off after and it was great to just be able to, you know, get that emotion out. And then I think it was good for the to just be able to, you know, get that emotion out. And then I think it was good for the team to be able to see as well, like it's not always going to be perfect, like it's not all just harmony and whatnot, but watching someone communicate authentically and then have a, you feel they've got that deep care as well for you after and you can leave the training field being arm and arm and you know well, I was at high school so you can't really have a drink together, but go have a meal together and that's it Like you learn, like the most important sort of men in your life when you're playing sport are your coaches. You're team mates as well, but you're learning from your coaches. They're very impressionable, especially from the age of, say, like 10 to 25.
Speaker 2:Mate. I love it. The more you teach, the more you learn. I think that's right. You might like that one, because that's another quote of yours, mate.
Speaker 1:The more you teach the more you learn, the more you understand that you don't know everything. That's a good quote with that one. The more I realize that I don't know.
Speaker 2:Love it. Hey, mate, I've got one more question for you, and it's the question I really like asking, because it opens the door to throw something out there which is potentially a little bit disruptive or contrarian belief, and that is is there anything you believe about culture and rugby in general which you reckon your peers and contemporaries may disagree with? And the reason I ask this, mate, is just because it sparks people's thinking around are we just doing things robotically because everyone else is doing it? Have you got any thoughts on that one?
Speaker 1:Rephrase that question for us. Is there a Let me feel that question again?
Speaker 2:Okay, I like your feeling on how this one sits with you. Jim, do you have an idea? Do you believe in something about rugby which you reckon others wouldn't agree with? Thing about rugby which you reckon others wouldn't agree with? So I'll give you, I'll give you a couple of um, I'll give you one that I was chatting my uh jeff parling the other day and he said this which I thought was interesting.
Speaker 2:He said I don't think that, uh, fitness should ever be a punishment. So if you drop a ball and you do down and ups where most coaches do run around the thing, he said that should never hard work, should never be a punishment, and nearly all teams do physical fitness as a punishment. But he said I want physical exertion to be something people love, so I don't want to give it out as a punishment because I think we should be training our players to love that side of the game. And I thought that was a really interesting statement and it's probably something which every coach and team does is like you drop too many balls right down and ups all around the field. But he said save that to enjoy it where it's not a punishment. I just thought it's interesting. People might not agree with that and probably wouldn't, but it's an interesting statement.
Speaker 1:That definitely gets me thinking. I'll reflect on that one later For me, I'd say I think obviously I feel like rugby's changed from sort of well, everyone said sort of from an invasive game to a game like attrition, game line dominance. I feel the way we're sort of moving with gps's, with statistics, and that we're losing the finesse of the game and there's not as much emphasis put on the subtleties of it. So we're always measuring how many like meters per minute or how many like your high speed meters or like your involvements, and I'm like I think it's important to have sometimes less involvements and do less and sprint less, because think it's important to have sometimes less involvements and do less and sprint less because you're ahead of the game or you're saving energy. And I'd rather put more emphasis, like if I was running my team, I'd put so much more emphasis on detail, on just really nailing down our 10 best starters Everyone knows their role in each one and then you're allowing your main callers to be able to pick the picture that they're seeing and tweak it. I think even like in our phase shape and stuff we can get to almost too involved on. Again, how much are we running? Are we getting enough, like there's like two balls fitness and it's very important, obviously, to be fit. But I think you can get a lot of that from 15 and 15 like what I've seen in the past and where I think the game sort of can go to is like these pressure cycles, positive cycles of how can we like outmaneuver a team and work our way up the field.
Speaker 1:Rugby's a simple game. Obviously it's physicality, there's, you know, obviously there's kicking battles, game management. But I feel like we're losing a little bit of the subtlety of, you know, rugby's finesse and how to out manipulate a team, because we're so aware of what's the most, the best time to be on field floor and what's the best. Meters per minute. Okay, this player's run 3k. They shouldn't be running three and a half. All right, let's pull it up here, or these guys can't do this. I'm like we'll lose.
Speaker 1:I feel like there's so much emphasis put on high performance because it's like okay, how do I get the best, like the most, out of my body? But then I'm thinking as well in my mind. I'm like, well, every player is different, why would? What I need is the same as him. That's what I've really at the Crusaders as well, in terms of gym programs and stuff. It's like really catered to the individual. But I think rugby training should be like that too. So there's parts of my game where I'm like I'm a kicker, I need to be spending 30 minutes at training a day working on all my kicks. If I'm only getting 10 minutes at the end of a session, that's going to cost us. We know how important those are, like look at the weekend and the test match with england versus scotland so important that each player, like you, come together as a group and you're working on the team skill.
Speaker 1:But then I think a bigger part, a bigger emphasis should be put on the skill set of what each player sort of needs and where they need to grow their game instead of just working on being an athlete. There's such an emphasis nowadays on being more athletic because the game has gone to, you know, powerful, big, strong game line. But I I really believe that the finesse, like the greatest players, are the ones with vision. But then they can. They're very consistent with their skill. When you look at some of even the greatest forwards with their passing game, their tip, the way they see the game, the way they read it, that's the one thing, it's not so much controversial, but I would be putting a lot more time into skill development and a little bit less into what this graph says about this particular person or what the perfect you know, even, like the perfect amount of sleep for that person, or the perfect amount of like this guy needs to be at this weight to play this footy. I'm like, let your body's natural intelligence work off yourself, like I feel like less is more a little bit in that respect, but then also really grow your game in the areas that need to be grown, need to be grown, and don't have such a similar blueprint for every player A wing of very different kicks to what a fullback would be doing, or to what a 10 would be doing, or, you know, break down work for a back row.
Speaker 1:Like really hone in on those specific skills because again, even I look at the modern day program, we really only have 10s of extras. You can go out on your day off and do some extra stuff, but a lot of it is sort of built in that we are sort of the same mold even when we break into sort of unit stuff. I feel like we could do that a little bit better how to do that. I don't know, because you've only got a certain amount of time in the day and I've never actually run a program. But I and everyone, like you know, everyone wants to put their little imprint on the game, but I do that is one thing I feel like I think the game could grow is if we had a little bit more time individually, where you break into subgroups of units, to really hone in on specific skills of hey, you want to play this game plan, then this guy needs to be able to do this. He can can't do this, we can't do that game plan, that sort of stuff.
Speaker 2:Matt, I love it. Actually, I reckon that's actually really cool because it is very true, mate, the athletic trainers are often the ones that actually run some of the programs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and even the boys can buy into it too, because it's like, hey, there's an hour and a half session, but sometimes we need to go for two hours or sometimes just pull it right back and just focus just on the team and go for 45 minutes. Let's get so clear on what this guy's doing in this launch and what we're going to do on this little trigger here and what shoulder you're getting to on the blind side, like you can almost break it apart, like so you're changing it like consistently. So you're still giving everyone like fresh ideas and fresh stimulus, but you're changing it like consistently. So you're still giving everyone like fresh ideas and fresh stimulus.
Speaker 1:But you're really the rugby element is controlling how long we train, for we don't get it right. Let's go until we get it right or until we feel like we're there, but then maybe the next week it's like well, you only have four players, so you've got to, you've got to deliver in these four players and then we're done for attack. So like being able to mix it up that way instead of always not. Okay, you've only got an hour. You've got an hour and a half, 10 minutes for d, 20 minutes for this game's chaos. So why not train a bit more chaos? I?
Speaker 2:love it. I actually think, um, that kind of smarter, not harder, isn't all is often true? And, like you talked about earlier, mate, the feel rather than the numbers, because some things you just can't measure in numbers, and the one being for us is culture particularly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how do you measure it? It's a Hamilton feeling, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Mate. That's the vibe I've got from you today, jim, I can tell you're a reflective man that loves the feeling of things made, and it's got. Your career has been absolutely outstanding, mate, and I'm enjoying watching, uh, how you're getting on in new zealand these days, mate. It's a pleasure to watch with the crusaders it's it's good fun well, new zealand version of your communication style.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you know the dots, the colored dots. Yeah, you've got yellow dot, purple dot, I'm a blue dot. There you go, feeling oh, mate.
Speaker 2:So have you done that? And is that that's the stamp of the crusaders, isn't it?
Speaker 1:yeah. Yeah, we did it with the crusaders, so I was blue dot and then, under pressure, I'm red dot and red dot's all about fucking this.
Speaker 2:That analytical um, it's a weird balance that's an unusual balance, isn't it like to be a feeling sort of guy in your normal state and then, under pressure, you go to?
Speaker 1:like bang action simplicity wow, that's fascinating mate.
Speaker 2:What is that um? How does that interact with other people? Do you get guidance on how that flows with other people?
Speaker 1:yeah, well, like again, we're still building the layers, but that's something that's in the checkpoints, so like we're touching on consistently. It's not just we do it one time and okay, that's me and I've studied myself. I don't know what I am, but now we're sort of going deeper into what everyone else is and also, like I know who the other dots sort of are and then how to communicate with those guys as well a little bit. Again, it's only my first sort of time doing this. I play with a lot of other just modalities, with human design and astrology and that sort of stuff that I sort of fall back on a little bit more than that, but it was just cool. I think the very like the color dots came from new zealand. So to what you might, uh, thought you might have you know, played, had a double and that yourself I have done a lot of that sort of stuff.
Speaker 2:I'm not necessarily I've done the dots, but I've done a few, a number of others, and I think that sort of stuff is really massive. Like I did a real personalized one, and then I was so good I went and my wife did it as well. And then, what was cool, we got how we both react under pressure and what it's going to look like to the other person and it's been phenomenal, mate for our relationship, because she's one way and I'm the polar opposite. So, for example, we get in the car and she wants to get A to B and I can, can get to be. However we get there, it doesn't bother me in the slightest. So that's fine if we're driving by ourselves. But if I'm driving and she's in the car, if I just drive, it's gonna, she's gonna sit there and be like this is not the right way, and then there's going to be ang yeah, acidity build up at some point it's's going to break, except it's the other way around.
Speaker 1:I'm A to B and my missus is we'll get there, we'll find a way.
Speaker 2:So the guy that I was doing was saying under pressure, you just need to say you know, when you're in the car with her, you just need to say love, which way do you want to go today, Because I don't particularly care. And that solved everything. There you go, mate. There. There you go, mate. There's a lesson for you love it righto mate.
Speaker 2:Hey, thank you for your time today. Really appreciate your insight, your reflection, your thoughts, mate. What a pleasure. Thank you for joining us here on Coaching Culture yeah, thanks for having me, bro, appreciate it.
Speaker 1:We'll speak to you in a bit, hey cheers, brother.
Speaker 2:Here are my final three thoughts from a conversation with James. Number one superstars care. Sometimes it's easy to forget that your superstar players are people too. Your top performers often carry more pressure than anyone else, and it's important for us to remember that. And sometimes that calm exterior can mask a burning inner drive. So be mindful not to extinguish that fire with overly harsh critiques, especially critiques that you might not give to anyone else. That sort of critiquing builds resentment, and that's the last thing you want from your best players.
Speaker 2:Number two condescension is a culture killer. When you speak down to players, it undermines trust and their sense of value and, as James talked about, feeling truly valued is critical to team culture. So treat every player as an equal on a human level. Adjust your tone to reflect that. Number three authenticity matters. Don't hide behind a coaching persona. Let the real you shine through. Share your genuine emotions and experiences. This is important because it shows your players you're human, and that builds strong bonds, and that's what we want in good team cultures. When you embrace your vulnerabilities, it reminds everyone that even the coach is part of this team's shared journey, and that's what we truly want. Until next time, stay well.