Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Frans Ludeke: The Soft Skills of Really Caring and Loving People
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Frans Ludeke, legendary rugby coach with over 30 years of experience spanning South Africa to Japan, reveals the leadership principles that have defined his remarkable journey. Having transformed the Kubota Spears from a struggling second-division team to Japanese champions, Frans shares how authentic leadership and genuine care create the foundation for sustainable success.
"Take your wins to your heart and your losses to your head," Frans advises, describing a mental approach that allows coaches to appreciate victories emotionally while processing defeats intellectually. This wisdom, passed down from his mentor, serves as a powerful framework for handling the inevitable ups and downs of coaching.
Frans defines culture as "glue" that binds teams together, something that must be fed daily through consistent messaging, clear vision, and accountability. His philosophy centers on creating environments where players can grow, enjoy themselves, and succeed by striking the perfect balance between fun, fairness, and toughness. The transformative experience of raising triplets in Japan fundamentally shifted his leadership approach, teaching him the "soft skills of really caring and loving people."
What distinguishes Frans's coaching is his commitment to creating "tables" where players contribute meaningfully to team direction. Even with world-class players like Victor Matfield at the Bulls, Frans prioritized player involvement in strategic decisions. His willingness to adapt his approach based on circumstances—simplifying communication in Japan and returning to teaching fundamentals—demonstrates his remarkable flexibility as a leader.
For aspiring coaches, Frans emphasizes authenticity and emotional intelligence: "Be yourself, but have the ability to change gears in your leadership style." Different players require different approaches—veterans need ownership while rookies need clear direction. This adaptive leadership philosophy has proven successful across cultures and competitions.
Join us for this unmissable conversation with one of rugby's most thoughtful and successful coaches, and discover leadership insights that extend far beyond the playing field.
I need to be on that. That's my responsibility is to drive that culture, drive that mindset. Feed it the whole time, because in tough times like that, the game is not working, it's because the culture is not working. And the culture is not working sometimes because players haven't got vision. They haven't got vision because there's no clear mission, that soft skills of really caring and loving people. That's what happens when you become a parent. Every year, every week, every month, every day, you need to feed that. You must take your wins to your heart and appreciate it and your losses to your head. Think about it, you know, chew on it, get the solutions.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today we sit down with Franz Ludiker, a legendary coach and one of the nicest men in world rugby. He started as a professional rugby in 1999, with stints with the Cats and the Lions in Super Rugby, having time as an assistant coach of both South Africa and Fiji, spending eight years with the dominant Bulls rugby side as their head coach, and presently has spent 9 years with the Kubota Spears in Japan, taking them from a dwindling second division team right the way through to winning the Japanese top league. Franz has a vast experience and is super lovely with his philosophies and very keen to share them. Here he is France. What a pleasure to have you with me on this podcast. All the way from Shinya Raiosu Mate. I would love to ask you, with all your your experiences, about your definition of culture.
Speaker 1:Ben Knapp. Yeah, hello, ben. Yeah, thank you also for the opportunity just to put the heads together and talk footy. I've always enjoyed every minute. We've spent the last few years, when you were here in Japan, just talking culture, talking rugby. You know how can we get the best out of players. So, yeah, that's actually the questions that you also passed through to me. It was really good questions. You made me also think about the environment, ben. I suppose that we want to create as coaches Players can grow and enjoy and you can be successful, but also you embrace the downs of the game when you're losing and how you can bounce back from that situation as well.
Speaker 2:I love that phrase, mate. Embrace the downs of the game. How do you do that, mate? That's a tough challenge in a culture, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I've told you before a wise rugby person in South Africa, blikis Groeneewald. Really, I think he's a next level skill coach. He's been with the Springboks many years, being involved in Blue Bulls rugby. But he said the thing is, you know your wins, you must take your wins to your heart and appreciate it and your losses to your head think about. You must take your wins to your heart and appreciate it and your losses to your head, think about it. You know, chew on it, get the solutions, get the clarity.
Speaker 1:Don't change that around. You know, if you take your losses to your head, you want, you know, you almost like overthink it. You know, and you stay sad for a long time, and you know so. If you take your losses to your heart and that pain for you know. So if you take your losses to your heart and that pain for you know 24 hours is enough. But if you're too emotional about it, then you know you never get over it. But if you take your wounds to your head, that's when you get ahead of yourself. You know you almost like get in South African words you get a big head. You think you've arrived. So I think that's also very, almost like a very good advice that he gave me when I was a young coach, blackie Schoenewald.
Speaker 2:Yeah, awesome, mate Van, have you ever spent enough time actually to sort of define the actual wording of the word culture, because culture is an overused sort of terminology? The actual wording of the word culture, because culture is an overused sort of terminology. It's very cliched, it's very um, said quite loosely. Do you have a, a phrase around how you use it?
Speaker 1:ben, for me it's easy, um, when I think about culture, I try to be almost like simple when I think about it as well. For me it's like glue. You know that, almost like stick people together and because a culture, if you create the right culture, it's normally in a right environment that that happens and normally, when you're in the right environment, you get the right behaviors. You know, and that's how's how you, you know season, once you've established the culture, every year, every week, every month, every day, you need to feed that. You know, um, in terms of how you get at individuals to work together, um, you know, so they can stay team, they have one mind, they operate almost like as one, one player, if you can call it that way, because we always talk about taking one shot.
Speaker 1:So it's all 15 players on the field working together. But not just that, almost like you're 57 players at the clubhouse working together for that 80 minutes on a weekend and your culture is almost like you know where all those uh, thinking and training and togetherness takes place. It's that environment that you create to help you to be consistently, you know, performing. That's the way I see it. So for me it's glue, because it's it's behaviors as traditions, it's your program. It's not just one thing, it's a lot of things that makes up a culture.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you talked about you need to feed that culture. Have you got any examples of how you do feed it, like specific sort of things around, because it's a lot of things you can talk about, but is there anything specifically that you sort of hang your hat on, as this is something that I like to do in my environments?
Speaker 1:The more I stay involved with the game, ben, the more clear it becomes to me, as you need to consistently, almost like, drive the whole mission when are you going, what is the end destination, where you are going and how you can in a fun way, but also a way that capture the minds the whole time, because that's why I feel like it's a daily thing that you need to capture minds, remind players this is where we're going, and also not just the process, but also highlighting when it's going well and you see some good actions and good behaviors on-field, off-field, rewarding that. But also when it's not good enough, you know when the standard is not there. It's almost like you know to use that also as examples to say you know, listen, yeah, this one or two things happened in the week. We're seeing some weights, uh, lying around, people don't putting it away.
Speaker 1:You know how's the love and care looking, you know loving the hard work. I see we turning short, we don't do the extras. There's all those little things. Ben, what I feel like me as the head coach, I need to be on that, that's my responsibility is to drive that culture, drive that mindset, feed it the whole time, reward it. And if it's not what you think it needs to be. You know it's. Also do we have that accountability through the leaders normally, and if it's really, really necessary, we'll drive it through the team in terms of in-team meetings.
Speaker 2:But you always, I also think you know it's better for players to keep players accountable and if it's really necessary, you know you can step in as a coach as well, because that's so much more powerful. Well, probably just to back you up, franz, for some of the people that are listening, I talked to one of your assistant coaches before to get some intel on you and it's pretty similar to what you're saying. I think this is great feedback for you, and this is the quote from one of your coaches. Franz is very clear with the vision and goals we need to achieve as a team. The values and behaviors are always aligned with our leaders and driven by the coaches and leaders.
Speaker 2:He drives it so consistently throughout the season and for me, I think it's one of the biggest compliments to any coach is when the people in your environment say back what the head coach is saying as well. So, mate, it's a testament to you, but how do you drive it consistently? I think like to have that consistency over a season when you have your ups and downs personally. Is it a challenge? Is it hard or do you love it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, ben, I must say I love it. You know rugby is my passion. You know when I was what, 12 years old, the British Lions do Tour in South Africa. It was Billy Beaumont and him and his British Lions Tour there in South Africa and that was, I think, the first time when I think back about my almost like journey with rugby and how. You know rugby was a vehicle that. I feel like. You know that. Yeah, I think God used that also for me. You know that I feel like you know that. Yeah, I think God used that also for me.
Speaker 1:You know to make a difference in the world, to change lives, change or raise and release leaders. You know to get good players to become great, hopefully, and average players to become, you know, good players. But for me, you know, it's a thing that I constantly think about because you want to win, ben, and you want to win the moment. It's not so much the game on a Saturday. Obviously, everybody wants to win on Saturday but how can you win the moment? What's in front of you? How can you pay attention, stay focused, set your goals? If you want that from your players? I feel like we as coaches. I spend a lot of time brainstorming, looking at the trainings, even in our blueprint meetings with the coaches in the beginning of the season. I always record that and I go back to what we said in the beginning of the season as coaches, when we had our thinking tank, looking at our game, looking at our environment, and everybody thinks about it. But when we have our meeting, I make sure what is that critical few things that we have to drive this season to be successful, and I always keep that in front of me. It's almost like a dashboard that helps me also to keep my eyes on the critical few, because everything is important and there's many things that's important being. But you know, what I've learned through this, the years of being involved, is it's not everything is important, it's what's that game changes.
Speaker 1:And for me, first of all is you need to get your environment. That's why the culture is so important. Culture make it fun. That must be family, it must be fair, but it must be tough as well. So if that happened in a week, we get that mix right.
Speaker 1:You know the culture will be an environment where people can enjoy themselves, they can be themselves and they can perform, because the tough part is where you give honest feedback. There's accountability, and sometimes you need, you have to show honest feedback in terms of straight talk, truth talk. You know to say listen, this is not our standard. This is how it needs to look like. So you need that balance as well.
Speaker 1:And the other thing is is the clarity in your game. You know how do your game look like, how you win. That's the day-to-day things as well. What's that small puzzle or chunk that you're going to build on today that's going to make your game better? It's that constant seek or desire to grow and get better. The last thing for me is culture. It's that your game get your game right, but also to train your game. That's one thing of the last few years being in Japan getting a lot of exposure to New Zealand players and Australian players massive, massive scientific approach, you know, like Crotty that came in here. Even Bernard Foley, you know, has been involved in some successful teams in Australia. Just how they challenge and ask questions in terms of you know, are we trying a load? That all balance between acceleration, decelerating, but also the endurance part of the training.
Speaker 2:So that's the things been that I try to keep my eye on that helps driving the process day by day just out of interest, franz, was was that sort of experience with players challenging with questions, something you hadn't experienced a lot of before coming from South Africa? Was that a different style or was it just done differently?
Speaker 1:I think we just do it totally differently in South Africa, but always that's part of my leadership style, always that's part of my leadership style, ben. I've always tried to create a table where players, especially the senior players thinking back of Farid Apria, brian Abana, victor Matfield you know 100 test caps, almost 150 super rugby games they know, you know, they've been there, they understand the pressures of the game, under pressure making the right call. So I've really been big on having a table for your leaders, like I said in the beginning as well, you know, for the coaches, leaders. So I've always listened to, you know, to players' opinion. I make the final call at the end of the day, but it's very important, you know, to have not just one mind thinking about our environment, our game, our conditioning, but you know, but to make sure we've got players, but coaches and conditioners, everybody chips in to make it almost like the perfect balance or that right mix.
Speaker 2:Well, I guess that's a great lead in France. Because I was keen to ask you about that particular time when you transitioned into the Bulls and that experience because, like you said, into the Bulls and that experience Because, like you said, you were coming into that team who had some epic players and how did you? And it's very successful, and they knew what they were doing and knew what they wanted to do and you knew head coach, coming into that environment, that culture, what were some of the big things that you had to be aware of and do from the outset when you're coming into a team like the Bulls at that time in history.
Speaker 1:I think the first thing I've done is to acknowledge their legacy. It's a massive legacy if you think back about the Bulls and their history of success and being successful winning competitions, not just Heineken Meijer's time at the Bulls but even before that. It's just been a team that's always been dominant in the carry cup, always provided a lot of players that played for South Africa. So first of all, just acknowledge it. But the other thing is also just to be real to myself, knowing my strengths and also what I can bring to that environment. That was the thing that I also really tried to focus on the first few weeks when I was in there. Especially that December off-season is really to sit down with the players and ask them because they know They've been there with Heineken for a lot of years and been massively successful. Just ask them what do they think it's working at the moment? Where's the need of change In their discussions? Talking to players it's been there that also highlighted what were the key things that we have to change.
Speaker 1:It was so clear for me after that, and a massive thing that helped me as well was that 1995 team of the World Cup that won the World Cup. Most of those players and Kitsch Christy was at the Lions where I played as well, so I've seen that transition also after 1995, franchois Pienaar and Annie Leroux and Kwebis Wieser and all those players. When they became professional they won the Super 10, they've won carry cups and they won the World Cup. I almost understand their hearts and the minds of the Bulls as well, where they were as well. It's almost just to make them excited about the future and where they are and what they still want to achieve in their rugby careers. So that almost the combination of me being in an environment as a player back in my playing days, but also, you know, respecting what has been done there in the legacy and asking players you know to just give their opinion, that helped me also to almost get a strategy for for the team to go forward.
Speaker 2:Love it, Love it, man. I can tell just by the way, when you're talking, mate, your passion about it. It all comes flooding back. You're a passionate man, but you can see how you would have come into that environment. Is there anything specific? Can you give any like one-off examples of something that you did change, whether it was big or small, where you said from a cultural perspective, this is something I'd like to lay my mark on and do it like this Can you think back that far? Is there anything which stands out for you?
Speaker 1:You know, ben, rugby-wise I felt like the game and how they wanted to play the game and how the Bulls played their game. That was, you know, it was a winning recipe. You know it was massive build on the forward play, that world-class forwards, and then a nine and a 10 that controlled the game, very physical, dynamic midfield that always kept the forwards going forward, either with kicking or just hard and direct running. So there was not a lot in the game but in the culture it's almost just to redefine it and create, and it create small things that we did Again. First of all, create a table where players really had an input and what's happening, even before a game as well. What do they see in the opposition? How do they see the opportunities?
Speaker 1:Because they were experienced players like Victor Matfield would be there on a Monday morning listening to calls of the opposition, analyzing them, you know.
Speaker 1:And on a Friday, in all my eight years at the Bulls, on a Friday at the latest, sometimes on a Saturday morning he always had opposition calls and that was the level of, you know, commitment that you had from players like them, you know. But to create a table where they can, you know voice that you had from players like them, but to create a table where they can voice their opinion, talk about the game. So it was really to empower them. Ben, that was the big thing that I felt like, because in my personality, as a leader as well, I'm a critical thinker, analytical type of person and I've got no ego. So for me it's easy to pull in players like that and also give them ownership, you know, and allow them also, you know, to make decisions on the field, and not always trying to lead them by radio and sending messages on the whole time, but it's almost to really empower them to play the game and what they see, what's in front of them.
Speaker 2:Is that hard, frans? Or is that just part of you? Because I know a lot of coaches would struggle well, a lot do struggle with not having that input, like to sit quietly and just let things unfold without feeling like they need to control every second thing. Is that just sort of an inherent thing for you?
Speaker 1:I think so, ben, because as a player as well, you didn't want somebody in your ear the whole time. You know, because it's almost like a robot rugby, isn't it? You're always waiting. At one stage, you're just going to wait what's the next? You know instruction, but if you can play and you're free in your mind, you know then, because situations can change within seconds, the momentum in the game can swing, you know, and you can't always put a message on. It's impossible.
Speaker 1:You know there is ways to communicate, but you know, for me, I trust people. I think that's my strength as a person. I really trust people. I like to empower people, because I definitely don't know everything and that's the way, you know. I make sure that it's a we effort, it's not a me effort, and I'm trying to be the main peanut in the packet there. It's that's, I feel like. You know that that's my point of difference is definitely being comfortable, sharing, uh, responsibility, giving accountability, but giving ownership as well, you know, because that's hard to to beat, I feel, because it's not just one man, it's a team that you're playing up and you're up against every week.
Speaker 2:I love it, mate, and I want to go back to another person I had a chat to about yourself, mate, and they said this this genuine care. He's a genuine student of the game, he sees the good in people and he has a positive outlook. And the thing I like best about Franz is he never burns an idea. And I think that goes back to your idea of what you do. Is you create that table where people can speak, and the fact that one of the people I talked to said he never burns an idea I think is testament to the environment you've created or creating, and that's cool. But what does that phrase mean to you? That when someone says about you you never burn an idea?
Speaker 1:my kids help me with that as well, ben, because sometimes they come and they talk to you and then there's times when they come and they talk about stuff. Then you feel like you can't believe what they're telling you. You know things that they've been doing or things that's been happening, you know. And then you know you need to bite the bullet, almost like, and just listen them through and give them an opportunity to share, and so that's one thing is to they must feel safe when they come to you, you know, and because if they trust that you won't, you know, judge them or like, burn the idea they won't come again because they almost they lose that ability to come with, you know, with suggestions, um. So so I I've seen, just like myself as well, you know, when people just cut you off or put you down when you bring an idea. But when they encourage you and they listen and they're thinking about it, you know that motivates you as well.
Speaker 1:I like also when, when somebody bring ideas, not to claim it, I will say listen, ben told me this is what we need to do, this is what we need for this weekend, because that will motivate Ben also to come with the next suggestion and to think about what is a better plan, a better way of doing it. I think that's also important, ben. I think that's also important, ben, as in, like I said, you know, it's important to not burn idea, but also to give the credit for the person that put the idea into the team. You know, because that's when the whole thing really picks up momentum and players get motivated, you know, to add to the process and make it better yeah, man, I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 2:And, like you talked about, you, learn a bit from your kids. You've got triplets. So how does that go, matt? How are your triplets? Because one of the time is enough for most people, but you had three at once. How is your coaching being influenced on the whole by your parenting journey, and vice versa, because I often think that they're very much the same. I think most coaches learn a lot from their kids and take a lot of that stuff into their coaching environment. Have you had that experience?
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, for sure, they keep me in touch with this generation.
Speaker 2:Is your music selection pretty good, Franz? Are you listening to the right stuff?
Speaker 1:Oh, yes, no, definitely Ben. No, it's absolutely a blessing. In the beginning, you know the day when I was still at the Bulls, when they broke the news and they said we're going to have triplets. In my mind, you know, I thought that's a huge challenge, but I've been so much challenged to change. I've been a very selfish person, Ben, always looking out for myself, looking for comfort zones.
Speaker 1:I think with the triplets there's no hiding because you need to help. If it's only one kid, mom normally look after the one if there's only one kid in the house, but with the triplets you can't hide. And that's when you realize what people have done for you, the sacrifices that parents make you know, to raise kids, to help them, to give the best for them. I mean you will do anything for your kids. So that's definitely a thing in terms of even in the culture as well, to really care for people, to be a real Ben, because you can easily just ask. You know how are you, but you don't even listen sometimes. You know when the person answer, but to really be mindful and be present when they talk, because that's what you, that skills, that soft skills of really caring and loving people.
Speaker 1:That's what happens when you become a parent, and I think that's the big thing for me with my family, the last 10 years here in Japan, we've been together. There's no family that can help. We need to make it work me and my wife and the kids as well In the house. They need to help, Otherwise you're going to need to do everything. So roles and learning how to take accountability. That definitely had a massive impact in my coaching style and also really being just real at the team as well. You know, and sometimes when you speak about family, when you speak about caring and going the extra mile and also show that with your behaviors.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and do you think, like when you said before, that you might have been a little bit selfish, just all on the rugby? Do you think ultimately, if you had, just hypothetically, if you just had one child, you might have continued on that same route? But because you had three, you took a big tack in the way you were as a human?
Speaker 1:A hundred percent, definitely been, definitely been, and even coming to Japan, because back home in South Africa there's many family, there's a lot of help. So you know, it's almost like you just get together as a family at night, if you think about how we raise our kids, because we're in the world, we're working hard, trying to earn or to provide for them, to protect them and to care for them. So it's a few hours, maybe max two hours before they go to bed, that you can spend time, but yeah, 24-7,. There's a text from the school. You're going soccer on a weekend at night, you need to help with homework. There's so many other things that happens.
Speaker 1:So there's no way that you can hide, there's no way that you can just pass the bucket or there's no responsibility from that side. You know, and that's that's where I feel like you know, where I've realized also, you know I'm just, you know I'm looking out for myself. It's always about how can I first look after my responsibilities or my priorities. And you also married with a family, ben. It's that accountability from, I think, from Anelia, my wife as well, you know, to sometimes straight and honest talk, to say listen, need you? This is not a hotel. You're not in and out here. You need to be present, you need to add and help, you know. So that's also a thing that changed me in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's great, and just out of interest, franz, do you have any little ways to switch off from rugby? Because I know, like myself, in little periods there you're just locked into the game of it and you're absorbed by it. But have you learned any little things that would be good pieces of advice for other coaches about, when you hit the family life, how to switch off or do you not switch off?
Speaker 1:I must say the kids and the family also. They know like Wednesdays are off days. So in the morning I try always to catch up with Anelia for that small family time with me and my wife. Then the rest of the day is really to look at. Almost the week I'm looking, scouting the new opposition. But I normally on a Wednesday go and pick them up, so that's almost like in my mind. I normally on a Wednesday go and pick them up, so that's almost like in my mind.
Speaker 1:And when we talk through our weekly planning I try to pick them up from school, try to take them to the activities in the afternoon, the evening and then at night just to do some stuff. So I never at night try I get up in the morning early. I'm an early person. So it's just to really make that sacrifice as well, but not a sacrifice but to enjoy it as well. You know, spending time with them watching a program, helping them with stuff, taking them to a soccer or wherever they need to go, to really allocate that time for family but to make it harder in your schedule as well, ben, that helps me a lot because in that you talk to them, you connect with other friends and soccer parents or parents that help their kids.
Speaker 1:That's also a nice way just to break away from the rugby for an hour or two or three to clear your mind, you know. So that's definitely a way. The other thing that I like we like camping. Being from South Africa, we like outdoor, so we always try to go camping and when we're there, you know, you really switch off. So when I'm off, I'm off, I try to switch off, you know, and try to refresh and, yeah, just have some quality time with the family.
Speaker 2:Mate, I love it, and it is a very different camping Japan versus South Africa, that's for sure. It's not as big and open as Africa. Is it Now, mate, when we go back to Africa? Like I'll get to your successes shortly, because you've been very successful in Japan with the Kubota Spears who you've brought up from second division. But before we hit the upsides of it, you've had a lot of downs as well. Like you went through at the Cats. There was some sort of low points in your leadership and things like that. How did you deal with those low points as a coach and your leadership? Were you able to move on? Did it sink you down? Because a lot of coaches deal with a lot of different pressures and it's always interesting to hear how experienced coaches like yourself, who have been in it for 30 years, reflect on their low points. Have you got any advice for coaches that are going through low times, with either successes or not being rehired or all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, ben, it's funny that you ask that because it's only almost like years after you've been in that pressure cooker and sometimes when things didn't work, that you can look back and you can understand why things didn't work. Because when you like when we were at the Cats I think it was like and even the Lions there was like two, three seasons that we never could win a game overseas New Zealand or Australia. It was tough times and every week you need to almost go back to zero. So I think it's mental mantras or little themes that you that you hold on to in times like that as well. I've always been very blessed with mental coaches that it's been involved with the teams yanni buta he passed away a few months ago. He's been the mental coach of the national sevens. He's been with jake white of the under 20s when they won, but he's been when I've been at the lions. He's always been there and also had the bulls when they won, but he's been when I've been at the Lions. He's always been there and also at the Bulls those eight years and he helped me a lot in terms of you know how just to process losses and then obviously, being involved here in Kibota as well with a guy like John Quinn. You know just that the last eight years that we've been here, six years that John has been helping us, that when you look back at that catch years, that first of all, that you could see how important this is, almost like the people you surround you with, because in tough times like that, the game is not working it's because the culture is not working and the culture is not working sometimes because players haven't got vision and they haven't got vision because there's no clear mission. You know so it's almost like the things that that that helps you now to succeed was things that was not in place. You know so it's. I think it's john maxwell that talks about the law of the lit. You know you can't grow, the team can't grow past your lit. You know because you put like you like. You know so in my beginning, when I was 33 years old as a coach, I finished playing Within two, three years.
Speaker 1:I was in professional coaching, so there's no way that you could have all the answers, and that's where I also learned, you know, to create table, to create people that can. We can put heads together. It's not just me that try to solve the problem. So having mentors Dr Gerard Poel, maybe one of the most knowledgeable people that I know about looking at the game that speak into you, that always ask me listen, how was your position in the game that you had enough position to play with, because you can't score if you haven't got the ball and then looking at ways how can you win position and when you have the position, how do you go forward, where's the space? You know, how do you build pressure in a game and how do you convert. That was things that when I think back at my years when I was struggling, it's all those little things as a player that you never thought about. But as a coach, because you need to think for 15 players you need to think about you know how can you be successful through a season and even more thinking from the position that I'm now, you know, looking back at those years when things didn't click, we were not successful.
Speaker 1:That's the best way almost I've been to look at the years there at the Lions and at the Cats and then going to the Bulls where the process was in place. It was clear how they wanted to play. You know there was a great culture in place. Like I said, you know the legacy almost of that. That also helped me almost like appreciate the tough times there at the Lions that you know culture is number one. You have to get your culture in place. You have to get clarity on how you want to play and how you win, how you build pressure and then that mental game and how you can be consistently performing well. You know that's the things that it's almost non-negotiables for me now, but that's through. You know tough, tough times at the Lions, tough times at the Cats, where we had to learn that lesson.
Speaker 2:Would you say just on those Lions and Cats? Would this be accurate? So with the Bulls they knew what they wanted to do on the field. Their game plan was so locked in. The game side of stuff was pretty much sorted and where you made your impact was on some of that cultural stuff, like creating the table that players could speak on. More the cultural side. Would you say that with the Cats and the Lions they didn't quite know how they were playing, that there was an element of technical and tactical first, or is it?
Speaker 1:all bundled together with the culture. I think it was both. Just to almost explain a little bit in in johannes burke. You know how you build the culture. There's we, we playing at alice park. It's close to hill brow, so when you finish you know that the whole schedule is built on you. It's almost like you focus, you get in there, you do your thing and you go because you want to get back to your, your home, where it's. You know the home and that's I. You know, we all know alice park, that area, it can be dangerous, you know. So that's a whole piece of togetherness, you know. And the story of players go hunting, they barbecue, they together.
Speaker 1:So it's also understanding that you know, because even as a player, we don't in the beginning we didn't train at alice, because even as a player, we don't in the beginning we didn't train at Dallas Park Me as a player as well, and even when we later on, as a coach, we trained there. But it wasn't an environment where you, you know, it was a family you could feel, and that's Ben, it's not the players. That's why I say you know it was, you know that was my learning. You know, when I say you know it was like. You know, that was my learning. You know, when I look back, you know the team didn't perform because you know, you know I take responsibility for that. You know, because, like the things that we talk about now, you know and I want to share some gold nuggets that helped me.
Speaker 1:Now, looking back to it, you know I need also to front up and be vulnerable and say listen there, in the beginning of my coaching career there was was a few things that I didn't drive, I was not aware of. You always heard about it, people talked about it, but that was not your religion or your gospel, the things that you really really believed in. But now it's non-negotiable for me because you know, if the culture is not in place, there's not a really mission and everybody is aligned and there's a togetherness and how you drive that from day to day, there's no way that you can have success as a coach. And it's so easy and enjoyable if you get things right and it's not just you, it's everybody working together. But that wasn't in place then you know. So, yeah, for me it's like easy to talk about it.
Speaker 2:How do you reflect on that, franz, like you made the point earlier that you have coaching meetings at the start of the year to sort of plan out the seasons with your objectives and things, and you said that you often record those and then you periodically go back and review them to make sure that everyone's staying accountable to what we said. But do you do that five years down the track, two years down the track, one year down the track? Do you always look back and go? What do I learn from that? How do you reflect on these experiences? Is it something you do actively?
Speaker 1:So in the beginning of the season, it's normally just to get the alignment, get the coaches aligned. Then we normally bring the leaders in. So as soon as we sort it out in the way we want, you know where's the growth, what was our learnings, where do we want to go with our game, the innovation, as soon as the coaches is all aligned and we connect all the bigger rocks of our game, then we bring in the leaders. You know, because they so. It's a massive accountability process that you almost like try to facilitate.
Speaker 1:Every season After the season, we do that. We give players the opportunity to review the season. They don't need to put their names on any of the papers, but they normally do, because it's the culture that we try to build. It's, speak your mind, honest feedback. They will tell you in terms of everything. It's from coaching, medical, if there's enough balance, the program load for players, skill sessions, everything. You just give them opportunity and you try to ask questions that can almost trigger them to bring the suggestions or to just say what is working. So every season, that summary, because you want to summarize that, and again, what is the critical view. And then, beginning of the season, you talk that up as well to say this is the previews, this is where we want to go with our game. So the process then makes sense and everybody feels part of it.
Speaker 2:Do you bring that review that you did the previous season? Do you bring that up to the team in the preview for the next year? 100% 100%.
Speaker 1:So we share that. We share that with the players as well. To say this is the players, the review of 60 staff and players. This is the key things that came out of our culture, our mental game, our on-field, our game model, but also how we pay the rent, our conditioning. So in that area, that's the four pillars that we build our system or we have been involved in. I believe that's the four vital things, that how you can build a process you know that can consistently perform. But then in that areas, we give players the opportunity and coaches.
Speaker 1:But at the beginning of the season we looked at and we sent it out. Now, even so, every year you're getting better with this whole review process. So you want everybody's feedback. It's going back to everyone.
Speaker 1:In terms of this is what our findings was, this is what we're going to focus, and you can't do everything, but you pick the critical few. That might be three or four things and we put all our energy to fix it and that's what's working, what we want to keep, but also what's the things that we want to change and that we need to stop doing in our program. And then, obviously, where's the innovation. So in the beginning of the season. That's the things that we will use as almost like a dashboard that we want to keep our eyes on, that we make sure that it's not something that we just mentioned, but it's real, it's really things that can make us better and that's why people I feel like you know they engage, they stay committed because it's their process as well. Ben, it's not just my team, it's everybody's. It's got a massive contribution to make to make it successful.
Speaker 2:Oh, I love it, mate. I love. You're a man that always likes to close that circle off, fran. So it's not just a review for review's sake. It's part of a circle of regeneration or something, isn't it? It's an active thing. I think it's outstanding Now. I think it's outstanding Now, mate. You left the Bulls with four kids in total very young, the triplets and then you went to Kubota in Japan, well on the way, via Fiji and a couple of other things. But when you got there, I'm intrigued about your Kubota Spears journey because you went into a second division team and over a number of years you ultimately built them up till they won the division one championship. So you got promoted and ultimately won the highest accolade in the country, and the standard of that competition is excellent. So to take a team from second division all the way through to champions of the top division, how did you do it? What was your mindset? What got you there from a cultural or organizational point of view? What were the big rocks in that? What?
Speaker 1:In Spain. It was the first thing that get into my head when you ask that is also. It's huge blessing in terms of because I did not that idea when we came to Japan. Almost like that, almost the size of the decision to come to Japanapan, because japan is unique. Um, like, first of all, you've been here. It was like a huge eye-opener when you get into japan and everything is japanese. They got a very strong culture. In other cultures it's family first and it's you know, you almost like these family values, but here in japan it's Japan, it's just different. You know things is working here. Everybody's aligned Japan first. That's why I said Japan. You come with some ideas and stuff here. They will clearly make it. You know this is Japan. You know they proud to be Japanese. So that was a thing that was like really that you were aware of.
Speaker 1:And then when you got to the club as well, where you come from, alice Park, you come from Loftus. It's a stadium, the infrastructure. You knew it was like 10% professional players and 90% is amateur players. So that dynamics. You know how you make that work. That first two, three weeks as well.
Speaker 1:You know, although you were very excited about the opportunity, you were definitely. It was a huge wake-up call that you need to change and the way you think about it and how you coach Some of the players that was in the club they just play to enjoy it and they love the game and they absolutely use loyalty to the company but standards and almost like a clear way of how they want to be a competitive side in the competition. That was things that in my discussions like I did when I went to the booth also to talk to players, it was clear that I need to change the way I coach and how I communicate, because you talk through a translator and you need to keep it short and simple and you know it wasn't a quick fix, so it's almost like really to start from the bottom, ben.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because it's not a quick fix in Japan, is it Not? At all no, no. And so did you realize straight away that you had to change, Because a lot of coaches get to Japan and almost resist the system. But did you learn quite quickly? Look, I've got a debt here, otherwise this is never going to work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure, ben. Just the whole thing about the difference in skill set, you know, in terms of standards of execution you know that was so useful but also the way I present and how I break the game down. We really had to go back to coach fundamentals because back in south africa at the super level, you get players that comes all, all of them comes out of high performance programs and you're involved in that programs. You know, from under 12, under 15, under 16, under 19, under 21, you, you, that's a pipeline that you build. So when players get there it's more strategy and tactic and tactic and how you make your game work, and not so much on the fundamentals. But when I got here it was like really to go back and coach the fundamentals of the game. But then it's been the most amazing 10 years of my coaching career. I've had some amazing experiences at the Lions, at the Bulls, at SWD, where I started in my coaching career as a schoolboy coach. But this is like unreal what I've experienced here. You know my coaching style improved and it's the reason.
Speaker 1:Japan and the company it's the most amazing people that I've worked with. You know from Ishikawa-san, the GM at that time, and then Mr Matsuki was the executive of rugby Real people that absolutely had a desire and a hunger to succeed, you know, and to almost like experience something that was successful, you know. That's the only thing that went in their mind as well. They really were also open to change. They were also open to see what do you need, you know. So I've always been supported and all my ideas and there were some tough years at first two years because we picked up a lot of 50s, 40 points against yamaha, santori, the panasonic, all the big companies has been over hundreds of years here in japan has been successful, you know. Um, yeah, ben, it's a combination of things, but for me it was also to be really simple in the way I communicate and the way I coach and getting players to have that almost like awakening to see there's huge improvement for growth. And which areas are we going to focus on?
Speaker 2:Do you think that would be the one takeaway? If you were to go back to say super rugby or international rugby? Do you think that would be your key takeaway is that you're learning from Japan as the coach.
Speaker 1:Simpler 100%, 100%. And also, ben I wanted to say that as well Having the opportunity to coach guys like Ryan Crotty and Bernard Foley that comes from really great rugby programs back in New Zealand Crusaders being successful playing at New Zealand Crotty in that New Zealand group that won back-to-back World Cups and the simplicity but also nailing the fundamentals of the game. You know that also helped me to almost like really uh, buy into the whole thing of keeping it simple, like you said, but also really building your game on fundamentals, because you can't play above your fundamentals.
Speaker 2:If you can't catch and pass, you can't make a tackle, you can't keep the ball in contact, there's no way that you can put a game plan together yeah, and that is the uh, the other cool thing about japan too your exposure to such a a high level of players from all over the show that you actually get a nice mix that you can think about too, right yeah for sure.
Speaker 1:Especially for me, the fascinating thing is it's just the attack, the detail that goes into the attack in in different countries like um, new zealand and australia, just the detail of shapes and how you play with um in in the bulls culture. What we played was, you know, it was very direct, it was, uh, in terms of how you can, you know, drive, control the game with your kicking and your, your defense system and forwards. And I must say Bernard and Crotty, ryan Crotty, bernard Foley and Ryan Crotty really brought a different and also Slashy. The Tanabe he played, panasonic played for Japan, has been involved in very successful teams as well. Just, you know the level of detail that they go into to make that attack also work. You know that makes the shapes and attack and almost like bringing that shapes and the skill set into a strategy that helps you, you know, to play an exciting brand of rugby.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love it, mate, and has it all been? Have you had parts of your career that you've gone? Yeah, I would do that different if I could do it again, Like not talking about, like the cultural pieces, but any like tough times or bad times, because it's a good build to obviously win it. But is there times in there where you've gone that was a low point, didn't act the way I should have. Have you had those sort of moments?
Speaker 1:Yeah, ben, definitely, especially when there's games in the season where sometimes there's games that you almost like you know you had to win and you lose them and that puts you under pressure.
Speaker 1:You just almost like to stay connected with that top four, that semifinal, because once you're in a semifinal then you can win a competition.
Speaker 1:But that whole season, you know, when you slip up in games like that, where some simple things in the week you know, like, for instance, not speaking up when something is not right, you know in, for instance, not speaking up when something is not right, you know in terms of mindset, or you know not players not, you know really executing their almost like their skill sets through the week, things like that, ben, I feel like you know when you see something is not right and not stepping in and speaking up.
Speaker 1:You know that's things that help me also. You know, when I look at the day, when I look at the week, it's never to let something like that, you know, almost like pass away, but to really be accountable and also to drive that mindset and that standards day by day. You know that's the things that I feel like you know at the end of the day that makes the difference, because you're winning the moment. You're winning what's in front of you. You're not thinking about next day or on the weekend, but it's just to make sure that you implement the plans that you have put out as a team.
Speaker 2:Do you actually critique your day individually and go back through at the end of every training day and go, damn, I should have said something to Jimmy there because or I should have stopped that drill earlier because it wasn't going. Do you actually critique, go over your day personally and reflect so that the next day you come back with a little bit of intention?
Speaker 1:We do that, ben, and you know, in the beginning of the season as well, we, as coaches, after a training session, we will quickly come in hot it. You know, just looking hot, just looking at what was the session, how did it go, how was the flow, what did we see? And it's all that whole thing. John Quinn gave us the model in terms of how you can look how was the mindset, how was the skill execution, how did the players stay on task, in terms of the game, the strategy. So every day afterwards it's just to look at, you know, quickly, just speak about you know.
Speaker 2:So you get together as a coaching group on field and just have that, or go into a room and look at the video, or how does that work for you guys?
Speaker 1:Yeah, at the moment, the last few seasons we've done it not daily.
Speaker 1:I will always go afterwards and look at the game, looking at, looking at the training, thinking about what we said in the training sessions, what did we plan, what was the goal setting and that we achieved that, because that helps you also to stay focused. You know, not speaking um too broadly about the things, but almost like to lock your mind in what was the things that you were after and if you miss, almost like if the main thing wasn't really the main thing you know that's also a learning is to really be clear in your mind. This is what we need to focus on today and we need to nail this to be successful on the weekend. So that's one thing. But, ben, in the beginning of the season we did it a lot, but as the season goes on, you almost get used to each other. The synergy and the alignment is there, so you don't always need it. But the next day, when we get in our coaches meeting, we always do a quick hot review, thinking and looking at what was the takeouts from the previous day's training sessions.
Speaker 2:Love it, man. I'm getting this cool vibe from you, franz. Obviously, I know how you roll it, but this kind of circle analogy keeps coming back to me, mate, you're always closing that loop, finishing it up by making sure nothing's left unsaid. Love it. I think it's a great little concept, that reflection piece. It's awesome. Now, franz, you've had more than 30 years or so and you've sort of been through the full spectrum of coaching, from schoolboy to super rugby, international rugby, japanese rugby. If you had to give one piece of advice from all your journeys, what would it be to a young coach coming through that you say this is a great piece of advice that I took a lot from from my experience.
Speaker 1:Yes, ben, for me it will be just be yourself. You know your strengths, you know where you need to grow, you know what type of people you need around you to complete you and also to challenge you, because there's an old saying that the person you'll be in five years from now will be determined by the people you surround you with. The books you read, like the podcast you listen to, oh yeah, the people that speak into your life, you know, yeah, but be yourself, ben. You can't be somebody else because it's going to be fake. You're going to be an actor, you know, and it won't last. People will find you out. So, yeah, just go with who you are, you know. And if you don't really love rugby, you won't last, you know. And this competitive game and the ups and downs, the rollercoaster of winning and losing and the pressures, you know. So, but be yourself.
Speaker 1:And maybe the other thing also is the ability to change gears in your leadership style. You can't have just one style. You need to coach what's in front of you. If it's experienced guys with a hundred caps, you need to involve them in your decision-making and give them ownership. But if it's a rookie, you know, that's when you prescriptive. That's when you tell and you say listen, this is what I want, this is your role. Clarity, because that clarity brings intensity. Then they can play with confidence, they can play and perform on a weekend, you know. So it's to change gears in terms of how you break stuff off, how you share feedback, because there's not just one leadership style, and I think that goes with emotional intelligence. So, knowing yourself, be yourself and, yeah, have the ability to change gears in terms of your leadership style.
Speaker 2:Mate. I don't think it's said enough. Franz, like, when you go to the courses, you often hear like you are this sort of coach. He's an authoritarian coach. He's an authoritarian coach. He's an empathetic coach. You don't often hear about that phrasing. He's a coach that can change gears well, and I love that based on what's in front of you rather than any sort of generic box filling.
Speaker 2:And that I guess too, changing gears isn't just about changing gears within a team, it's every individual right. Like when you're out in the field, you're coaching Victor Matfield very differently to you're coaching the other lock he's locking with, who's a 19-year-old straight out of university. So I think it's a lovely statement for a young, aspiring coach to be is just to have that little bit of emotional intelligence to go. There's a different way of treating these two, even though they're both doing the same job in the same team with all the same structures and the same jersey and whatnot. Love it.
Speaker 2:Now, franz, I've got one more question for you, and I really enjoy this question because I never know what sort of answers we're going to get, and that's what I love about it. And the question is what's a belief of yours around any aspect culture, leadership, the game that you believe in or enjoy or you philosophize about, which you don't think would be done by others your peers, your contemporaries, your audience, that they would probably go. No, I don't know if I agree with that. Do you have anything that comes to mind?
Speaker 1:Yeah, ben, it's more, I think, in a religious sense, because on the game, of course, you align you with people, not that almost like always agree with you, but when you recruit people, players and staff and I've always had the privilege to, I've been once an assistant coach but always been a head coach you can, you know, recruit people that is like-minded. Best time to fire people is before you hire them. It's to really be clear what you want, because my foundation, what I built on this, is I've got a serving heart. It's how can I add value to people? Because if you value people, you will add value to them.
Speaker 1:And sometimes that can be seen as a weakness. I know in the beginning of my coaching career, people said kindness is a weakness and rugby-wise, I think people, I don't think there's. I've had a lot of my colleagues that see the game different, because the game is simple, ben. It's a simple game, but how you build cultures and how you grow people and to become what they also believe they can become, that's where I feel like I. You know I'm different. I treat people different. I want to be also different, ben, because I think and I believe different about life. And now you look at. You know how you can make a difference.
Speaker 1:So rugby is a vehicle for me. Like I said in the beginning, it's to yeah, it opens up doors. I've been in places and houses and offices that I've never ever would have been if it wasn't for rugby. But how do I use that vehicle you know to? To be a person that can add value to people, because, um, and not everyone always agree with that because it's about winning, it's about accountability, it's about driving standards and it's about ruthless, you know, and sometimes throat cutting, almost like managing or leadership styles. And you know, that might be something that you know. Not all my colleagues that I always coach with that agrees with that, but I'm fine with that because that's like I said, I can only be myself and that grounds me every day. It grounds me every decision that I make. That's almost like to be also real and authentic to myself as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, brans, that's absolutely awesome and, knowing you personally, mate, I I can attest to the fact that you are all those things.
Speaker 2:And just that phrase, mate if you value people, you will add value, and I know, I know what you're saying. But the sentiment is that sometimes in rugby that that people that are kind won't get far, but you, you are the epitome. And that is not true, because your level of kindness and care towards everyone you're around, mate, it builds people up, it invigorates lives and it really creates awesome friendships, and mine and yours is one of those, mate. I love being around you, mate, and I just have so much joy about these chats that we have, mate. So keep going, mate, because your style is something that the world needs, not just in the rugby front, but in the whole human existence, mate. So thank you, franz, for all your effort and your journey, and I look forward to more success for the Kubota Step Bears and onwards, mate, for whatever may happen, going forward with you and the family. So thank you for sharing your time, your wisdom and your knowledge.
Speaker 1:Absolute pleasure, Ben. Thank you also for inviting me. It's like yourself also you eat and sleep rugby. I appreciate you as well, my friend, and yeah, good luck with this podcast, and I know that it will be a blessing for not just the last few that you did or last few years that you've been involved. You know sharing this but a lot of good things come from this initiative, from you as well.
Speaker 2:Thanks, brother, appreciate it. Here are my three takeaways from a conversation with france. Your job is to drive the mission, feed it, drive it and reward it. As a head coach, you are mission control. You set the course, you feed the energy and you reward progress. From tower, you see the big picture, aligning every effort towards one unifying mission and celebrating each milestone along the way. People want and need you to do this, so do this. As a coach, you are the chief at mission control.
Speaker 2:Number two don't burn an idea Great concept from Franz because if you do, they won't come back again. When you shut down creativity too quickly, people won't return with fresh thinking. Nurture every spark, even the imperfect ones, and build a culture where trust and innovation can flourish. You'll want ideas because, ultimately, new ideas keep the team fresh, energized and ready to perform at their best. Number three be able to change gears as a coach. A great coach adapts communication and approach to meet every player and staff member where they are. There is no one size fits all, so flexibility and empathy become some of your most powerful tools. It is important to remember that this is an art form, so if you find yourself clunking your way through the gears and finding it hard to change down. Stick with it, because with time and practice the changing of gears becomes smoother and more fluid and you can drive down that road a lot more fluidly. We'll see you next time.