Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Glenn Delaney: The 80-20 Rule of Authentic Leadership
TEXT US HERE If you have feedback or requests for the show!
Rugby has always been about far more than the scoreboard. At its heart, it's about belonging—being part of something bigger than ourselves. Few understand this better than Glenn Delaney, whose coaching journey has taken him from Nottingham to London Irish, Canterbury, the Highlanders, the Scarlets, and now Mitsubishi in Japan.
"Culture is an observation that others make of you," Glenn explains, breaking down his triangular leadership philosophy of values, behaviors, and identity. Rather than prescribing rigid behaviors, he focuses on understanding what each player brings and how their natural tendencies can strengthen the collective. This approach acknowledges diversity while creating a cohesive identity that outsiders recognize through consistent interactions.
What truly sets Glenn apart is his "80-20 rule": maintain consistency 80% of the time so your team knows exactly what to expect, but keep them on their toes with 20% unpredictability. This calculated unpredictability—like having Tom Youngs throw petanque balls as preparation for becoming a hooker—creates engagement and prevents complacency. It's the coaching equivalent of the mad scientist who occasionally blows up the lab, ensuring everyone pays attention because they never know what might happen next.
Perhaps most touching is Glenn's commitment to connection. "The biggest job I do every day is to connect and say good morning to everybody in the building," he shares. These seemingly small interactions allow him to gauge emotional states, identify who needs additional support, and build the invisible threads that strengthen teams. His storytelling ability turns technical lessons into memorable narratives, helping players process challenges through historical context and shared references.
Having weathered professional setbacks, including being let go from London Irish, Glenn embraces authenticity above all else. "You're driving the train, but remember it's not your train set," he advises coaches navigating the unpredictable landscape of professional sport. Want to thrive in coaching? Bring your whole self—coffee addiction, colorful language, and all. Your team will thank you for it.
Subscribe now and join our conversation about what truly builds championship teams, on and off the field.
https://www.learnfastapp.com/
Learnfastapp
It gives you real-time insights into how clearly you’re getting your message across.
Learnfastapp
It gives you real-time insights into how clearly you’re getting your message across.
I think at the start you're young, you think you're amazing. You really do, and it's only when you get a lot older that you go oh, isn't that great. The 80-20 rule is 80% of the time. The team have got to know you understand what they're getting from you. It's got to be consistent. They've got to have a focal point that they trust and 20% of the time they cannot have a fucking clue where you're coming from, the win-loss-draw thing. I equated that to the external world's personal opinion of me. The storytelling aspect is enormous. You know, ray's probably one of the greatest storytellers ever. I think we need a philosophy on philosophies and it was sort of, I say, because I don't think a philosophy is static.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Glenn Delaney, regarded as one of the most intelligent coaches in world rugby, with a vocabulary to boot. Over the years, he's built an impressive resume, coaching teams at Nottingham, london, irish Cadbury, the Highlanders, the Scarlets and, most recently, mitsubishi in Japan. Not only coaching, he has been a GM director of rugby, as well as a head coach and assistant coach. He's the man we affectionately know as Glax. Let's dive in. This is about culture. So, glax, I would love to know how you define culture. I know it's a word that's bandied around a lot, but where do you see it and and what's your definition of it?
Speaker 1:yeah, culture's, um, it's I think it's an observation that others will make of you and I. I sort of equate culture to the identity part. So if you look at behaviors and values, they they link to your identity, which is how you present yourself. So, in order to present yourself and your culture, I think your behaviors have to be really great. They have to be strong behaviors around how people actually interact and what they do. But that's set by your values.
Speaker 1:So you've got to believe in something in order to stand for it, so that little sort of triangular piece for me. So what got to believe in something in order to stand for it? So that that little sort of triangular piece for me. So what do we believe in? Like if you? I believe that everyone should be treated equally. Everyone should have a, a right to be listened to, to be heard, to be engaged with, um, to be. Everyone has a right to, to be a part of something with their own individuality. So if you take that that's something that I believe in then you've got to have some behaviours that will go along with that. So, when you look at trying to interact with people rather than saying, hey, this is how you have to behave. In my environment, I take a view of going well, how do you behave and how does that work for us and how does that make us a stronger unit?
Speaker 1:So you're like defining the behaviour, not just saying the behavior, actually putting in some guidelines on it. Yeah, you've got. You've got to actually understand what, what is good behavior? And because we can just say, hey, hey, we've got to behave well. But what is that? Well, what's the behavior? Well, the behaviors have, you know, lots of different forms. One behaviour could be looking after the tidiness of where you work. So that's an action that you can take to say I'm going to pick up that bit of letter or I'm going to put my stuff away, I'm going to be organised. Things are going to look organised as though I'm prepared. So that's a behaviour. Another behaviour is greeting everyone first thing in the morning. That's a behaviour. We have to go and actually action that and therefore we can learn to interact with someone. You can find out if someone needs a secondary conversation or a follow-up question.
Speaker 1:Behaving, because that defines the culture. And you know what? Why are we behaving that way? What are we believing that makes us want to behave that way? And I think that's sort of always been my take on it, because you know, if you're defining culture, I think you could say we've got a great culture, but why and what is it?
Speaker 1:And ultimately, if you look at, rugby is in the world that we've worked in, most people would define the outcome basis of what we are in terms of the performances. The outcome is winning and that's the most tangible part of professional sport is we go into a contest and there's a winner, there's a loser, sometimes there's a draw and if over a period of time, you've been winning and creating success, often people will say I must have a great culture. Well, actually, maybe it, maybe it hasn't got a great culture, but it's just got a great group of people that can perform in that way and in the same breath say you haven't been particularly nailing the results or it's been a bit inconsistent. People might say, oh, maybe there's something wrong with the culture, but that's just a throwaway line. Maybe the culture is actually the foundation for why we're getting some success not all of it, but we just might have a lower talent pool.
Speaker 1:So, for me, what I look at if we're looking at a team that I've coached, I would like people who watch that team play when they come, but also interact with them in post-game, pre-game and all the things that go around. I would like them to represent a culture of behaviors with those people so that when someone else sees us, they go ah, they're polite, they're authentic, they're genuine, they're interested in me, they like to converse, they've got empathy. Those are the things, the behaviors I see that come from the values. So that's, that's loosely put, what, what I take it as and do you?
Speaker 2:think those things like, just for those examples, like the shaking hands, because I love that, I think it brings something amazing into team environments where it connects people beautifully, and I personally think it it has an invisible thread which which grows teams. Do you, do you agree with that? Because there'll be a lot of people that would say what's the point of that like shake, shaking hands? It's, it's not. It doesn't correlate to winning games of rugby, which is why we're all here. But I know, personally, I think it does too. But what's your justification of that?
Speaker 1:I think the biggest job I have to do every day I go to work is to connect and say good morning to everybody in the building. That, for me, I feel, is the most important thing I do in the day. Why is that? The reason I think it's the most important is because that's how I find out how the people are. There's a lot of people you morning, how are you? Good? They're going great, good and and, and you can move on quite quickly through it.
Speaker 1:But then all of a sudden you'll sit, you'll see someone you say morning, how are you? And you'll you'll notice something. You go, this might just need a follow, I might just need to go. You can have a copy. Let's just hang out, you know, let's just go a bit. So you find yourself with the lion's share of your staffing playing group, all the people you work with, because no one works for anybody. We work with each other. So you find the people you're working with and discover the one that might need a little bit more, to find out how they're preparing so that they can have the best day that they possibly had, because they might have arrived in a really not a great space. I want them to leave in a brilliant space, so that might just mean a bit more of a discussion with them. So yeah, for me the connection piece every day, I think is the most important thing.
Speaker 2:Do you think this has changed over time? Like, is this been the the natural progression of coaching until this sort of age has gone a lot more this way compared to 20, 30 years ago, 100%, if I go back 20 years to starting coaching and you were there at the outset.
Speaker 1:I mean, we've done this for a while. I don't recall doing the connection piece every single day. I always was available, I would, you would address the team, but it was more formal and it was a little bit I guess it was a bit anecdotal really. I'd preach the lessons I'd heard from the past and try to make it my own and then digress and I reckon at that time I was probably standing at a pulpit, sort of preaching and it was like what was you know? And over time you learn, you know, maybe maybe it was right for them, maybe it wasn't, but it's very different now.
Speaker 2:The the individual part, I think, is the is the key glax, I don't reckon your some of your vocabulary, particularly some of your course language, would uh put you on a pulpit too often. I don't reckon that would. Uh, that would work?
Speaker 1:yeah, I don't think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, there was a fairly narrow choice of words so, mate, you talked about like coming into the the bubble which is culture, and you said the most important things is the value and the behaviors they're. They're the crux from what I heard from you of of what a culture is, is the foundation of. Do you think it's your job as the coach or the head coach or the leader of that organization to be the gatekeeper of those values? Is you turn up every day and you've you've narrowed down what your values are for this particular team and you're just there to be essentially the, the guy that holds everyone to account on those values yeah, I think you, you want, you want the group to hold itself to account ultimately and to help to be able to hold everybody, me included.
Speaker 1:And you touch on the leadership aspect, and it is a massive part. It's all intertwined. So, when you take a step back from an organization, you've got to say what's the philosophy we're going to put on this, what's going to be our coaching philosophy? How are we going to operate and work? So, in order to define how you are going to work, someone's got to set a philosophy. So that's the key part that leadership needs. So, when you get appointed to the role the head coach role or the leadership role it is your responsibility to define how it's going to work, because that's why you're there. That's what the organization have entrusted you with.
Speaker 2:Do you have a couple of examples of that blacks in terms of, of, of a philosophy which you've used either currently or in previous teams, or or is the philosophy the same everywhere?
Speaker 1:you go, it's modified. I I had this chat with the late great kevin bowring, who was a magnificent man who, um, who did a, did the coach development piece for the rfu, who did the coach development piece for the RFU, and he taught us a lot. He taught us a lot about listening and I had this conversation with Kev. I said I think we need a philosophy on philosophies and it was sort of I said, because I don't think a philosophy is static, it applies forever. I think it's contextual, I think it's related to the people. So when you look at the context where you're working, I think you can define a philosophy of how that works. So, if you take Japan, one of the big contextual challenges that we have is language. So Japanese, english, there's different Samoan, fijian, afrikaans, there's lots of people with different languages and also working through translators. So that adds a contextual challenge to the philosophy of how we are going to teach and learn. So your time, as you well know, your time gets cut down. Your messaging needs to be more succinct and the digressionsions, which I can be renowned for, um, have to be limited. So your storytelling has to change a little bit. So for me, it is about the art in terms of developing a philosophy, it's the context. So, for usually where I'm at at the moment, the context is, um, the mitsubishi donables, who are part of Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, which is the parent company of, effectively, the Mitsubishi group of companies, started about 150 years ago. So where I started with the philosophy of how we want to operate and learn was with history. So I started telling the history of the organization so we could find out what are we doing here, what's our context, how do we fit into this Right, how can we be a part of that and build on it? And then, within that framework of knowing who we are, so when we're playing for the badge and playing for the team, it's a little bit deeper, the connection's a bit deeper. Then we can figure out how it is we're going to teach and, more importantly, how are the players going to learn so that we can teach them according to how they learn.
Speaker 1:So that's how, philosophically, my, my sort of journey, I guess, has changed. I think at the start you're young, you think you're amazing, you really do, and and it's only when you get a lot older that you go oh, isn't that great. And it's like sure, maybe it was about me, me, me. I was trying to prove to the world how much I knew. I know that and then it's just very young and enthusiastic but quite sort of insecure with your own knowledge base.
Speaker 1:So you're continually trying to show people how much you know so that you know. You hope that they think you're capable to do the job, because I was pretty young when I come into this and we all have an ego that we want you know. In this job, you want to be successful, you want to do something good and and and and improve things, because ultimately it's reflected by others. So I think it's changed a lot from then that now I look into more the depth of who is this organization. I've, I've been asked to offer the opportunity to come and work for what's important about them. Let's use that as the coat peg for developing the philosophy of how this rugby department's going to function.
Speaker 2:And you find the players buy into that pretty easily because they're all there for that badge, aren't they? Yeah, it's a natural way to buy in?
Speaker 1:I think they do. I think rugby's tribal and everyone wants to belong to a team and a gang. I want to be in a gang. I want to be part of that crew. Let's be part of something that's bigger than just me, and that's the bit I've always loved about rugby is just working with a group of people to do something. You know, when you're playing you've got the physical, mental, um emotional challenge of getting up for the game and the highs and the lows, but ultimately it's you know that physical exertion and and the driving of your endorphins and and all that stuff is is amazing. So when you coach, you have it's slightly different, as you well know. You don't get the probably the physical release that you get in the game. You've still got the stress and the whole journey. You're riding the roller coaster, but yeah, I think that's it really. I think you've got to understand where you're at in terms of trying to make something work and buying in and believing that you're part of something. I think is the most important part of any team sport.
Speaker 2:Yeah, love it mate, love it mate. Hey, glenn, in that you mentioned you talked about that ego a little bit around. You started off. When you did start off, you just wanted to prove how much you knew, do you? And on reflection would? Would you give any advice on that aspect? Because that's a big aspect that I think is almost part of the coaching journey. Is that that's how you do start, right? You start with you, just you need to get in there and experience it. There's not. Do you think there's any other way around that? Or do you think when you're starting as a coach, you just got to accept that you're going to come like a bull out of a gate and your ability to reflect, post all those times is where the value is? Or do you think there's things you can do in the moment as a young coach which would help with that aspect?
Speaker 1:There's definitely help there. I was really lucky. So when I started at Nottingham a long time ago now, I had a group of godfathers, kind of I turned from Nottingham. So one was Mark Arthur, who was the CEO of Nottingham Forest. He was Derek Brewer, the CEO of Trenbridge, the cricket club, jeff Buxte was the chief executive of the National Ice Arena and a fellow named Mark Dolman was the senior partner for Deloitte.
Speaker 1:And they were all sort of fans of rugby but within the sporting community, and they kind of took me and made sure that I succeeded in pretty much all the things I was trying to do. And they did that really well by sort of chastising and pushing and sort of like this advice bank I had. They never came and said do this, but every so often I'd get a knock on the door, time for a coffee, and it was almost at that moment I was like, oh, what have I done? I've done something. And then they come with all these. They had tons of experience and they were so generous with their help.
Speaker 1:So I had those guys locally around me who I felt just wanted me to succeed and the team to succeed. And then the side of that in rugby was um access to probably the greatest um coaches that new zealand had had and you know, um steve handsome, wayne smith, mike cron, um graham henry at the time you know those guys allowed me to come and do my professional rugby development and with the all blacks and that they they were, they've always been there end of a phone, an email, a text, um, so giving with what their experience was that enabled me to help shape who I was and try and obviously cut your own path, but you could use those sounding boards to find ways and solutions from guys that had already done it. So I think, as a young coach, the one thing I would encourage anyone to do is to find some people who have got experience in maybe some different fields, but have got experience in leading people and working in people-based organizations and use them and let them help guide you towards myself.
Speaker 2:It's just just have that sounding board to bounce ideas around, and not just ideas, but also sort of venting stresses and strains, and that type of thing is massive too. Um, I had, uh, this example when I was coaching with steve hansen and we're going through a bit of a loss period and he said I had the greatest amount, uh, most consecutive wins in world rugby, which made me the most successful coach in the world. But I also had the record that not many people remember with Wales of the most consecutive losses. So I know how you're feeling and it was just that statement that he said. That just went all right. So everyone goes through it. Like this is part of the journey which you're not alone, because I think coaching can be. You can feel a little bit isolated and alone, right Like it's, even though you've got a whole team of 50 blokes around you or 50 people around you.
Speaker 1:It can be that isolating at times Entirely, and you know when things aren't going well. You can sometimes feel the 90 pairs of eyeballs looking to something you know they're looking, give us the golden nugget, give us the silver bullet, and it's often not there because they aren't often in the room.
Speaker 2:And how do you? Because that leads me to this one is what do you do when you're losing? What do you do to keep those 90 pairs of eyes that are looking at you looking for something? Say, you've had a series of losses or whatever? How do you deal with that sort of stress in that environment as a leader?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you take it on more yourself. The key thing is not to sort of omit it and sort of to let people see it. I think if the one thing I've learned is you can't be sort of disappointed with players for losing at all, because the game you win and lose but there's plenty of that goes on. The only time I think you can get emotionally charged is perhaps around when you see a lack of effort or you see a lack of preparation or things that really you could be taking control of. So those are the times when you've lost your rag. And I remember once this was at London Irish.
Speaker 1:We played away in Portugal, I think in a European Cup game and it was like halftime. We were horrendous and it was all mindset. We hadn't thought correctly about it and we weren't playing well and it was as though the boys had just gone on the field expecting they were going to win and we were up in the game. But it was just I said to Richie Whiffen, who was assistant coach at the time, and I just said we've got the books there, we're making notes of what can we do to set half time. It's got sort of 15, 20 and I've gone richie. I don't think this is technical, I just don't know what we. So I was always shut the book and um, I let rip for about 13 minutes without taking breath and I felt, better but no one had a drink.
Speaker 2:I don't know what impact it had on the guys.
Speaker 1:But, um, you know that for me we just weren't ready and putting in the effort, and the second half the boys got themselves together and they could execute because we had test rugby players in there and, and you know, they got themselves together and had a great second half and away we went. And I think that that's something I've learned. You know, in the early days I had the win-loss outcome thing really high, highly ranked, and in my view of whether we were good, bad or indifferent, and the win-loss draw thing, I equated that to the external world's personal opinion of me. So therefore I took it personal, yeah, and I found that that was hard to deal with.
Speaker 1:I've learned over time that it's it's not just your fault. So therefore, when you get the blame aspect, you want to come out hard and try and be assertive. But now it's more about trying to unlock the why and and what. What was the process? What was the aspect that was missing from what we did? How can we do that better? Um, we've got to take something from it, because we're going to play again in seven days. So we've got to go into some form of remedial activity so that we can be a better team you talked about before Glax, about storytelling.
Speaker 2:Like, is there a degree of storytelling required after a loss and the eyes are at you of being able to like reshape the narrative around what's just happened and repackage it and reframe it? So then, for whatever way you've repackaged it, then the team goes, okay, yeah, that makes sense. And then they're back on deck and they've cleaned the slate. You're good at stories, but is that something you've worked on 100%?
Speaker 1:The storytelling aspect is enormous. You know, ray's probably one of the greatest storytellers ever in terms of environments and the like, but there's massive value in using some form of an analogy to explain something that's happened, to give comfort that you're not the first people to go through this. So if I go back to oh, this was one we used with Canterbury in 2007. It's a long time ago now but we went away to Wellington and we got absolutely stuffed. Third game in a storm week and we got an absolute hiding. And it in a storm week and we got an absolute hiding. And it was like oh, crikey, and we were working the theme that year on the LA Lakers and the three people that they'd gone to because we were going for the third win in a row.
Speaker 1:So Razor and his crew had got two and this was the third year. So we'd sort of linked them together to try and bring the story through, because there were some guys that had been part of all three. Some had been part of maybe two. There were some new guys were only going to be part of this one and, like any team, it was evolving. So we thought, well, let's just make this about the three-peat and the analogy was with the Lakers, who'd done that, and they had this horror show away at Portland, I think on the way towards winning the three-peat, where they got absolutely down, and so I was able to come and go oh hey, that was Portland, all right, great, move on.
Speaker 1:You know the Portland and it didn't matter to them, so it's not a matter to us. So these things happen, and that that the greatest, it happens to the greatest. And all of a sudden it's like, oh yeah, okay, the weight's off the shoulders. This isn't the first time anyone's been through that and they've still managed to find a way to be successful. So the storytelling I think is is massive, um, and I, I enjoy, I like getting up and you know me, I like like telling a story and trying to find an analogy and find a way around something, and so you know it's, it's, it's part of part of what I enjoy doing as a coach well, one of the things on your stories, glenn, is you're a very intelligent man.
Speaker 2:You've probably got the largest vocab in world rugby. How do you build that sort of vocab into a sport which, if I generalise and make some horrendous stereotypes, that isn't the highest IQ of a lot of sports? How do you build that sort of intelligent theming into your stories?
Speaker 1:Hard one. I had one bit of feedback once from a guy, a great mate of mine, who I know, and he goes um. I was telling the story and he goes um. I loved it, thoroughly entertained.
Speaker 1:Not sure some of them understood what you were saying and I was like um, but I think sometimes you've got to understand how far you can go with it. Um, if you're going to use language that can be a little bit different and and you've got to define it, you've got to find the definition and try and find a way of introducing what does that actually mean? And I guess in the early days I liked to enjoy myself and sometimes I was entertaining myself with what I was saying. But I've learned more as it's gone on that it's got to be purposeful back to them.
Speaker 1:But probably the one thing with a group in storytelling is the reason I like to use it is because I want to change the focus point of a lesson so it can't be monotonous. Otherwise people's attention spans can move on and we've got all manner of people in the room that some may have ADHD, some may have all manner of concentration things that are hard. So you cater to a wide audience. So I find that using humor and digression and introducing people from the room into the story gets attention and then you can get your point in. And that's why I do it, trying to make sure that when they come out of that room and they might have listened to something for five to ten minutes they understand what the key points are, rather than they've digressed because it's boring and monotonous and just switch off. I want them to be engaged and that's why I use it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think stories throughout history. Right, that's how things are remembered.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Historically, all the way back from caveman days, around the bonfire telling stories, that's. That's how things are etched in minds and I've certainly felt it as well. I actually struggled a little bit. Um, I had a situation in japan, actually, when I was there last, when I love my stories as well, I was telling some, some good ones, and after a couple of losses in a row and I was doing what you talked about, the, the big boss, the contact who came from the company and said, no, no, you can't be telling that I need, we need to be talking about scrums and line outs and uh, it's uh, it was just an interesting uh into a different psyche of someone who didn't appreciate the storytelling.
Speaker 2:Um, but I knew I just had to keep going with it and and get those stories, because if you dwell too much on the nuts and bolts at times the boys are all good at the nuts and bolts. It's just that they had an off day or whatever it was. It wasn't anything to do with storytelling, it was just the, the situation we found ourselves in do you find the like authentic?
Speaker 1:you're probably one of the coaches I know that's the most authentic because you're truly yourself when you coach. If you're authentically you, they buy in straight away. If you're trying to be something that's not you, they'll see through it in a heartbeat. So it's an interesting one with the pressure when the contact comes in and says I need you to talk about X and Y. Well, that's his message. Yeah, that's right. That's not necessarily your message.
Speaker 2:It was very difficult and that's why I didn't do it, because, exactly that reason, it's very tough to deliver that message when it's not your own. It's super fake.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, and the boys go. I don't know, and I think that that sort of I used to call this the 80-20 rule, right? So I've got a rule. Yes, the 80-20 rule is 80% of the time the team have got to know you understand what they're getting from you. It's got to be consistent. They've got to have a focal point that they trust, and 20% of the time they cannot have a fucking clue where you're coming from.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and those are the bits you love, right.
Speaker 1:Sometimes that's when I'm at my best Maybe the viewers, if they 100% consistently get what they want from it, maybe sometimes that can work against you. And just that little bit of shock of what what's he saying there? That just jolts a little bit and I think it creates that little bit of it's just probably not quite the right, but a little bit of like, oh okay, a little bit of an ability to think about a moment. But yeah, I think you want to be, you want to be really authentically yourself. So I think if anyone's been coached by me, they're probably a couple of those things Like what's he about Well, those things like what's he about, well, he likes to tell stories and lost coffee. And I think if that's my contribution to coaching, I'll be very, very happy man, how many people can drink coffee at 11 o'clock at night glax?
Speaker 2:you're one of the special ones.
Speaker 1:Hey, the winner at the end of coaching is the guy who drank the most coffee, isn't it?
Speaker 2:I? Um, you just reminded me of a story a a very good coach I coach with ryan martin used to use the analogy of the mad scientist in the schooling, like if you, the mad scientist, is the one that blows up the science room and you only have to blow up once and then every time the kids walk into the room they're on edge and excited because this is the guy that blew it up three years ago and it just creates this thing when you walk into the room, about that kind of edge and excitement when you listen to someone's meeting, that what could happen here, that 20 that you talked about oh, totally, and and sometimes you can see them waiting for it and, yeah, you feel it and I think your instincts are normally right with a group.
Speaker 1:um, I think you learn more the longer you do it, that you learn more about when the instincts are correct, and I I think everything's down to experience. So if I go back to the guys that helped me that had experience and they could help shape me around some of the instinct and some of the teaching stuff, and I started off life trying to be a teacher and learning how to do that, but obviously went into coaching, which is very similarly teaching. But I think when you don't have that experience as a young fella then, or your young lady, then you, someone else, can help you fill in that gap and give you the opportunity to test those things out. I think once you've, once you've been in it for a while and you've seen a couple of iterations of teams, you kind of have the gut feel, learn of when something needed that just lightens the mood or darkens the mood, or you know you, you're, you know you, you yourself, in front of people long enough to know when does the group need something slightly different love it.
Speaker 2:You actually just reminded me of a your 20 percent, um, your theory.
Speaker 2:When you're at nottingham and I came, I was there with you and tom youngs came as a hooker and one of the first days that he was there, you got him out playing patonk before training, throwing the patonk balls, and the rationale was that because Tom Youngs was a back, he'd played 12 and then he came to you with your job was to get him to play a hooker, having never played there before, and that was one of the first things you did.
Speaker 2:You got him out there throwing petanque balls as his warm-up and it just created this real quirky sort of feeling amongst the group where you've got one player over there playing petanque while everyone else is stretching and limbering up, and he's there and you justified it and whether this is right or wrong I don't know, but you sold it well, where you're learning about the flight path of of the ball and the throw and how to get your lob throws and the different types of throws to get on the right spot, and I thought I think, mate, that just sort of sums up your authenticity around that 20. You talk about that bit where people remember the fact that I'm talking about it now I love this, I love playing for talking anyway, so maybe yeah, yeah, you got caught, rosamond, I was just getting my baton going.
Speaker 1:Anything, anything, gary, if you can find something that can help or reference something. And for Tom I mean Tom would be one of the best blokes I'd ever had the opportunity to work with and coach. I mean what a great, great bloke, so dedicated. And remember his first chance at playing hooker it was way at doncaster and I think you probably coached him at the time and, um, he came off for the last 10 minutes and the doncaster front row had some mean old hombres in the front row who'd been around a bit and next minute this guy who in their eyes was a back he's appeared in the front and oh, we're not going to stand for this. And of course it all kicked off and Tommy, one of the greatest punchers in the game, like he could fight if he had to, he wouldn't go looking for it, but he was tough and he just dropped into the old, as I called him, the woodchopper's shoulders and off he went. And I remember talking to Nick, his dad, afterwards on the touchline and we both sort of thought, yeah, I think he's going to be a hooker, I think he's fine, he'll be all right because he was tough.
Speaker 1:And I reckon for Tom. The analogy for me was he was always a hooker playing centre. He wasn't the back that went to play hooker, he was the other way around, he just found his way home. And the one thing I remember Tom saying, he said if I play for Nottingham for the rest of my career as a hooker I'll be so happy. And that's why he played for the Lions, because he'd committed wholeheartedly to doing this. Now he was talented and he just did that. And his mind, the ability to train Simon, hardy's work with him on the throwing, all that stuff I mean he was just a joy to be around as a bloke and Hardy's work with him on the throwing, all that stuff I mean he was just a joy to be around as a bloke, utterly inspirational as to what he did at a time. And testament to him, year one, his line-out throwing. I think we hit about 50% and there's some guys you know good off-lays in that line-out at the time and he got Player's Player of the Year at the end of it.
Speaker 2:And that just told you how much of an impact he had on the guys he played with. That's incredible, isn't it? 50% line-out stats and you get players. Player of the year, players.
Speaker 1:Player of the year and it was like yeah, of course I mean just a delight to work with, and what a great fella.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he's absolutely tops, one of the very best Tom Youngs. Now, mate, I'd love to talk to you about a couple of other things around your leadership, particularly Blacks, and one of the things which I really note about yourself is your journey through coaching hasn't actually been a super straight line. You've gone sort of you've done a little bit of assistant coaching, a lot of head coaching. You've been a director of rugby, you've been a CEO. How has all that been over the last 25 years? The changing from like a ceo is a big is a big difference from a assistant coach and and the director of rugby is very different to a head coach. How have you managed all those roles? Have you just taken it in your stride or?
Speaker 1:yeah, what's that come from? I've never really thought too much about it's um, and I've done it. I've always liked a bit of variety, so yeah, so if I go back a few cogs. So I started as a professional rugby player and then immediately that was in Japan like 30 years ago, and then the contract finished and I was like, oh, what am I going to do now? So then when I went to the UK to live up there, I thought I'm going to get a job because this rugby thing's never going to last. So I thought I need to get working. So I went to work in recruitment, um, headhunting that that was the um, the trade I was in. So that gave me some skills outside. So I did like three years working outside playing rugby part-time at that stage in uh for Nottingham and down the leagues, just because that's. That was the opportunity. So I did that before I went back into professional rugby. So I had a little bit of experience behind me of working outside and seeing how different sort of work environments are and gaining some skills that I thought I could always fall back on should I need them. But actually the skills I learned then were actually incredibly helpful for what I do now, so I was able to apply those.
Speaker 1:So when you go to being a CEO, your primary function in a rugby environment is to make sure everyone gets paid at the end of the month. So that involves relationships with banks, with. You know times, the inline revenue, you know the suppliers, people you're paying. There's a lot of things go into it and you have to run the accounts and then deal with the strategic planning of the business as to where it's going to be. So you do all that. But I've learned a lot of that stuff, um, working outside of rugby. So again, I had guys who were able to teach me that sort of stuff and I could sort of bring that in. So for me it didn't feel as though I was doing something that I hadn't had no experience and I could sort of apply some of the lessons I'd learned then and go, okay, well, I can use that. So I think I was just bloody fortunate in a lot of ways that I was able to experience some things outside of the game that actually, when I look back on it, have lots of relevance to the game.
Speaker 1:Because if you're thinking about a rugby business, effectively you're selling tickets to a show. It's the entertainment industry. So we have an event every two weeks at home, because home and away, every two weeks, you have a home event and that's your opportunity to sell tickets to the show. So how are you going to do that? And that's what we we came across.
Speaker 1:So the time at um, nottingham, uh, we, we ended up um simon beatham, a great mate of mine. He, he's um one of the owners up there and um we worked together but we came up with this idea of um. We need another reason for everyone to turn up to this, because not sure they're just going to come and want to watch Nottingham. So how are we going to do that? And we created these sort of themed nights in the banqueting hall. And Notts County Football Club had like 500 seaters, so we were sort of selling out corporate based on this one little little principle which was let's theme the night. So we had the the farmers do the the property guys do um.
Speaker 1:The the finance industry guys would come in or get all these people from these different spheres and put them in the room.
Speaker 1:And we knew that if we could get two beers into them straight away, we had them for the night.
Speaker 1:So we, we got these buckets of ice, cold beer already popped on the table when they walked in, so no one had to queue and what we found was we had these wonderful nights, um, for another reason to come and watch the game. So people would come for, uh, a guest speaker. So a mate of mine, a guy named john nickel, who, um, he's got wonderful experience from the first Gulf War where he was captured and paraded on TV and he's become an incredibly successful author post it. But at that point in time he, he, he was an author and he would tell the story of being captured by the Iraqis and what he went through. So I got John to do me a favor, and he did, because he normally charges quite a bit to come, and he did it in favor. So I got to come and he did it favor. So I got him down for dinner the night before, looked after him and, um, and he did this you got two beers into him to start with.
Speaker 1:That's how you got a couple of beers into it but he, he told a story in the and we'd sold out the banquet hall because john was coming. So we found a way to create revenue for the business with another reason to come. That wasn't necessarily just to watch the rugby, but, yeah, the rugby was there and that's why we were doing it, but we gave you another reason to be there. So this whole sort of methodology of trying to create revenue so that at the end of every month we could pay the players and the staff and keep it ticking over that was that was what we were doing I love it, mate.
Speaker 2:I think it's massively important around. What you mentioned about you worked outside the sport for a while. I I think that is sometimes missed about the value of that side of things. I think some of the best coaches I know have had particularly education like have been teachers. But the I think nearly all of the best coaches have done something else prior to rugby, and certainly myself I know a few guys that have transitioned straight through and it's probably not as grounding to have gone from professional playing all the way into professional coaches without something else. So I think those that have had that experience of dipping their toes into something else role actually lends itself well to being a more well-rounded coach. I guess you've experienced more yourself.
Speaker 2:You can you know, connect better with all sorts of different people and concepts and ideas yeah, I think it's all people, isn't it?
Speaker 1:you know, ultimately, yeah, the profession we're in is about people and if you get a chance to work in another industry that's people related it's, it's very easy to apply the lessons that you you learn from those. And, you know, certainly in the in doing recruitment, I was dealing with um finance directors and ceos of companies um trying to put their senior executive or or it personnel on.
Speaker 2:So you're dealing with some pretty serious people that know what they're doing and, yeah, well, just when you talk about recruitment, glax, I'll get on to this question because I was keen to ask it of you your experience in recruitment and how does that deal with not being recruited specifically for rugby, when you get sacked from teams? Only two types, you're right those who sacked and those that are about to be. Now, how does it go for? Because it's a fear of most coaches, right, that they're going to do like that, they're going to get sacked because results aren't good or whatever. It might not even be results and it's a genuine fear for most coaches and and that's the stress which plays on the back of your mind, which sits on your shoulders, and it makes you act sometimes in ways which you're not necessarily proud of in reflection.
Speaker 2:So, how do you, how you've gone through At least one now, how do you? How have you dealt? Yeah, a couple. How have you dealt with that? And what is what your learnings and take off for how to deal with it? So, can you know, for coaches that are coming up to that or, you know, nervous about it, what advice would you give around dealing with? You know, essentially, being sacked from the rugby team? You've been part of.
Speaker 1:So probably the only thing is it's very easy to give advice. It's hard when you're living in it. So the only thing I think that can really apply that would be helpful is don't worry about things you can control because you can control them, and don't worry about things you can't control because you can't control them. So what that means is that when you're working for an organization and if you're the head coach or you're a coach, you are driving the train, but you have to remember it's not your train set. You are driving the train, but you have to remember it's not your train set. Someone else sometimes wants to come and drive the train or thinks you're driving the train in the wrong direction, and that's entirely their prerogative to think that the only thing that you have to make sure of is that contractually, you're secure, because it can be quite a transient existence. So, yes, the hiring and firing element of professional sport is very public. Um, and it's it's it's really challenging for those around you. Um, you know when, when press is bad and and and people are casting aspersions of you on your ability to do your job, um, it does have an effect, but more so have it has an effect on the people around you, because when you're in it, I think you've got thick skin. You can deal with criticism in the same breath as you can deal with praise. So those two imposters are the same thing, just treat them differently. It definitely has an impact on people around you. So that's the first thing, is you want to shield them.
Speaker 1:So in my experience, I left Londonondon irish uh, got effectively made redundant at the end of the year was 216 got relegated. Um. I was the the head of rugby operations at the time, so I wasn't directly responsible for the coaching on the field. I was trying to help, but organizationally it just it just didn't work and the team didn't perform. And so my role as the head of rugby operations was to effectively rebase and went through a massive redundancy scheme with the staff and letting people go and contracting. And we had to take the rugby budget and drop it right down to bring it back up to the level, because you can't just take call it 500,000 off the top line. You've got to take a million and bring it back with the right number of players. It's it's a pretty challenging thing.
Speaker 1:So spent a month effectively doing that and then it got to the end of the um, the period of the 12 months and I got the old ceo grabbed me for a coffee and, um, yeah, and now we've got to make you redundant. So I was like, have I done something wrong, done my job? Well, we just can't afford you to be here. And it was as much of a sort of a kick as you're ever going to get, because London Irish was my club. I played for it, I coached it, I felt like I'd done a good job there and here I was being shown the door and you know, you have all those sorts of moments where you think can I, am I any good, am I terrible?
Speaker 1:So from then I left that and I started working in the city, doing some work in businesses to help realign strategic boards and working on the people part of it with an accountancy firm, a partner in there, a guy I knew well, saw what I could do with people and he could do with numbers. And here's a combo we can do both and go in and sort of look at businesses that might feel like they're struggling or might be looking at a trade sale and saying, well, okay, maybe it's not a trade sale, you might actually be able to do this in a different way. Let's have a look and see if we can help you. And so I was doing that, really loving it. And then I started doing commentary with BT Sport with they were awesome, like what a what an experience that was to learn from guys like Ali Eakin, nick Mullins I mean, nick's a good mate of mine and, um, you know, that's just amazing what they do. But to be sitting there doing that was like, well, this is out of the comfort zone and maybe okay because I like telling a story, but it was brilliant.
Speaker 1:So I had this period where I was doing that and I thought, well, I'm actually really enjoying this. So out of this catastrophe became a couple of opportunities. And then, um, I got a call about um, oh, would you be interested in looking at Canterbury? I was like that's my hometown. And so a week later I had the job. I was like this has just all come out of nowhere. So that was amazing, that something great. At that point, had I not gone through the experience of being released and let go from London Irish, I would never have got the chance to go home to New Zealand and coach my province. Which, what? Just a bucket list job. I just never, ever dreamed coaching the uk I'd have that opportunity, and for the guys there to to have you know, given me the chance was just a wow, how good is this?
Speaker 2:so out of that really tough time came something amazing so do you reckon you actually got tougher through it, like when you're like I think? So yeah, you did, yeah, because it's, it's, it's tough, right like it hurts, and all that stuff.
Speaker 1:Everything you go through everything and you know you're going home trying to keep a brave face on it with the family and they know you're down and and they're supporting you. And I'm like claire's awesome, like she. She at home just takes care of everything and and is majorly more in touch with her emotions than I could ever hope to be. So we're quite a good double act. But, yeah, she knew I was hurting and knew how, how to make sure that I could get through and function and and, um, you know, still be a dad and and still be the husband and and and feel valued at the family. But you know the opening standard is you don't want to leave the house. You just don't want to leave the house. In case you see someone and they go oh, how are you going? I'll go explain myself and then. So you do become tougher.
Speaker 1:And the one thing I did from that is when I went to canterbury it was, it was about that authenticity thing. I was like, right, I'm going to go and do this and this is going to be 100 authentically me. And what does that look like? What that's going to look like is in the coaching office there's going to be music playing. I love music. Awesome for the environment. There is going to be tunes on and if you want to have a meeting with me, bring me a coffee. I'm yours. You know, it was like just I'm gonna just 100 commit to being this, is it I'm not going to look at? Perhaps previously I've tried to maybe do what I felt people wanted. No, no, this is how I am as a person. Let me do that, and I think it'll be good enough.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great one. And do you think that's directly because you'd been let go for doing it away? Then you're like, right, if I'm to do that again, I'm going to make sure, if I'm going to, if I'm ever going to go out, I'm going to go out and having done it my way, because I've heard that said before and I think it's very true, absolutely and and, and I think what you'll also find that is, if you do it your way, it's going to be good enough because it's authentic.
Speaker 1:I think if you're trying to do something, it's not it. That's where the holes come, and I think that's that's the path. And I think when you look at um Brian Clough as an example so Brian Clough, great manager of Nottingham Forest, nottingham forest having a great year again. By the way, top four live in the dream. Uh, nuna is in there killing it. So we're having a good old year.
Speaker 1:Chris wood, kiwi striker running a goal. So I'll go about them all day. But what an amazing man, manager, and, and he had this project. He went to leeds and he got sacked really quickly and there's a movie that martin sheen's in. That's about it. And the reason that he said he went to Forrest was because financially, he was independent, so he didn't have to dance to anyone's tune. He could just do it that way and that way was good enough, but he had the confidence and the security that he could just do it and I think that's part of it. If you feel comfortable enough that I'm just going to do it, and I think that's part of it if you feel comfortable enough that I'm just going to do it this way, it's going to work.
Speaker 2:It will work yes, and I guess once you get to like elite level coaching, you've almost got to pretend that the security is always there, even if it's not. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Because if you, if you get caught up on doing it as a job and I need to do this with the family and all that stuff you're going to sacrifice some of that authenticity.
Speaker 1:I totally agree. I think that's the one thing I would say is making sure you can carry out who you are as your behaviours, your values. That leads to your identity, that gives people comfort. That that's what I'm going to get. There's nothing coming from left field. So I think as soon as you start trying to be being influenced from those, perhaps, who are in power, who are, I'll try and pull it this way, I'll try and pull it that way. You can't allow that to interrupt what you're doing. You've got to let that you do that. That's fine. This is how we're rolling.
Speaker 1:And at some point in time you might say, hey, this is not really for us anymore. We'd like to move in a different direction. So, from that perspective, you've got the contracting aspect of a coach. So the only security you ever have in coaching is the contract in terms of if you want to do that. So once that's done, you can put that to one side and go. Hey, I'm just going to get on with the job.
Speaker 1:And that was one of the lessons I got from Mark Arthur, who's the CEO of Forest. He sort of talked around the footballing model where managers come and go and there's a lot of hiring and firing. It's very quick and pretty brutal. And he just sort of said look for us, the decision's always loaded, we just decide when we pull it. But it's always there, it's never an afterthought. The decision's always loaded and I think maybe even in some of those circumstances they've got their preterms organized.
Speaker 1:If in case it all falls out, this is what they do. But that industry is far more evolved than rugby. So I think, if, if, if, you're going on the basis that it's a great day when, when you've been appointed to a role that's big and and there's a lot riding on it, it's everything you want to do you to do a good job. But you've also got to recognize that at some point in time those same people may make a decision that says, hey, it's now not you, we're going to do something different. So I think you've got to accept that that can happen and you can't worry about it because it's not in your control what they're thinking.
Speaker 2:Love it, mate, love it, mate, love it. Glax, yeah, I love your stories, man. I could listen to you for hours and hours, but we won't, we'll knock it on the head very shortly. I'll finish with one last question and I actually wanted to throw one at you which which I hadn't talked to you about previously, because I think it's a really interesting one, and it's this what's one belief you have around coaching that most people would disagree with and kind of the concept of that is I think a friend of mine has been talking to me about this about that most coaches have little things that they think, oh, I'd like this or I believe in this, but they don't necessarily always share that because it's, you know, not the normal way of doing things, we're not the done thing, but we have little things like that which we believe in and like.
Speaker 2:For me, I believe, like, without question, culture comes first in anything, and I don't I know for a fact that a lot of coaches don't believe that. They believe some of their skills and drills come first, but that's what I believe. What? What is some one belief that you have around coaching that most people would disagree with, you think?
Speaker 1:It's an intriguing one really, because if you look at the people piece you've got. So in our organisation we had about 90 people in the rugby department, various sort of backgrounds, whatever. So there was an old boss of mine who's a master recruitment investor and still going in the uk, and he said to me this while I used to whenever he come over to the office I'd have lunch with him and he just a little bits of gold. And he said to me this one time he said you should always enjoy making money off people you don't like, because you're going to come across a ton of people in your working life that you actually don't like but you need them and actually you should enjoy doing well because of them.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I think there are always going to be people maybe in your environment you think, oh, I don't know about that but that, but they've got something and actually they can be a really valued part of the team. And I think you should enjoy all the different parts because you know we all have friends and people we gravitate to. And then there are people yeah, I'm not too warm to that person, but actually in your environment you're going to have that spread. So you can't just make it all one type of all singing and dancing, water and lights type of people. There are always going to be people in and around your environment that you go. I don't know whether or not. For me I'd never articulate who, what, why or how they are, but they've always been. As I reflect every environment, there's always been someone. Yeah, not so much that person, but actually needed them and they needed us and we found a way of making sure that their contribution helped us in that. In that analogy, make the money, love it mate love it I.
Speaker 2:I was just thinking of this phrase, which is probably inappropriate, but like enjoyed the the dance with the dickheads, yeah yeah, and maybe I'm, maybe I'm that guy yeah, I mean, I enjoy dancing with you.
Speaker 2:That's probably what. What mate, that is, that's awesome. I actually really enjoy. I think there's a lot of a lot to be seen for that. That concept in general like you're right, but I reckon people would disagree. I think there's that concept sometimes in teams that if people aren't fitting them, all get rid of them or whatever. But the other times is he enjoy that challenge or enjoy those, those people for what they are and what they can potentially do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they have value and you've got to take a step back from that, because if you just cut everyone out of the way, that didn't see it your way, I don't know that you necessarily would perform. Love it. The world's a big old place and there's plenty of people out there. Love it, mate.
Speaker 2:Glenn Delaney. What a pleasure it is, as always, to have a yarn to about culture and leadership and all things coaching.
Speaker 1:Mate. It's been a pleasure and awesome to catch up. Go hard or go home.
Speaker 2:Here are my final thoughts and key takeaways, in the words of Glax himself. Number one use analogies.
Speaker 1:There's massive value in using some form of an analogy to explain something that's happened, to give comfort that you're not the first people to go through this.
Speaker 2:Number two don't worry about what you can and can't control.
Speaker 1:Don't worry about things you can control because you can control them, and don't worry about things you can't control because you can't control them.
Speaker 2:And number three, the 80-20 rule.
Speaker 1:The 80-20 rule is 80% of the time the team have got to know you understand what they're getting from you. It's got to be consistent. They've got to have a focal point that they trust and 20% of the time they cannot have a fucking clue where you're coming from.