Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Conrad Smith: Coachability Unleashed, The Culture-Driven Approach to Rugby.
Questions? Text Ben Herring direct.
Conrad Smith unpacks the anatomy of winning team culture with remarkable clarity and authenticity. Drawing from his 94 tests with the All Blacks and captaincy experience with the Hurricanes, Smith reveals how culture transcends motivational posters and becomes a living force within truly great teams.
Smith's framework for culture starts with vision—that high-level aspiration everyone buys into—but he quickly moves beyond theory to practical application. "Values are difficult," he acknowledges, "because any team can put 'trust' and 'teamwork' on a wall." The difference lies in behaviors: concrete actions that demonstrate values in real time. The famous All Blacks tradition of "sweeping the sheds" wasn't just symbolic but a tangible behavior reinforcing their commitment to staying grounded regardless of success.
Leadership emerges as the crucial final element, with Smith candidly reflecting on his own growth from a player who noticed problems but remained silent to one who respectfully held teammates accountable. His transformation accelerated when coach Mark Hammett controversially released several Hurricanes stars, forcing Smith to step up when nothing was left but "to make a difference." His goal wasn't championships but simply making players "want to be a Hurricane again"—prioritizing culture over silverware.
Perhaps most revealing is Smith's assessment of his own success despite physical limitations. "I was pinned under the bench press in my first gym session," he laughs, attributing his rise to being coachable—listening, asking good questions, and working relentlessly. This approach prevented coaches from having any excuse to drop him, even when he wasn't the strongest or fastest.
Ready to transform your team? Discover why culture isn't some "airy-fairy" concept but the bedrock of sustainable performance, and learn practical ways to build behaviors that reflect your values rather than just writing them on walls.
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You can't avoid culture, and so if you think of it as a grey and airy-fairy thing, then that's not an excuse to avoid it. You've got to find out and get it into your process. Being coachable is such an underrated asset I was pinned under the bench press in my first gym session. Coaches have to lead. Like that might sound silly or obvious, but it's absolutely true, and coaches don't always lead. If you're asking a lot of your players, then you've got to ask that of yourself. But oh, I'd love to go back if I could and say, right, this is what I'm going to do.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I am Ben Herring and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Conrad Smith, an iconic player. Having played for Wellington 126 games for the Hurricanes, pal and the All Blacks 94 tests, he is known to be a player that played with immense guile and thought. He is astute with all his assessments that he makes around rugby. He is a lawyer by trade and currently serves on the Rugby Players Association. We talked to him today about a player's perspective on coaching, the goods and bads of what coaching he's had, what he's learnt from his first-hand experiences from the very best and sometimes the very worst coaches in the world. Here he is, conrad. First question is always how would you define culture?
Speaker 1:I do get asked this a bit and have sort of spoken about it a little bit since playing as you do, when you've been fortunate enough to play for a while and be in some teams that were successful. So for me, like culture, I think that most people would agree like it starts with something quite high level in terms of an aspiration, or you know something that everyone blows into where you're going, what you want to do, why you're all gathering on a Monday morning before training, you know big picture stuff. So I think that's really important and it's hard to get right, but it's an absolute, key part of a culture that vision, that aspiration for a team. And then I think, within that and people, teams do it differently there's no one way. But I think when you talk about building a culture, you then sort of have your values that underpin your vision. And values are the difficult bit, I think, because they're really generic and any team can do them. And you come up with values, put them on a wall and you'll go across 10 teams and they'll all have the same thing like trust, teamwork and honesty. And so, yeah, they're still important because you want to acknowledge them and you want everyone to have them front of mind as you go about your, your business and through a season, um, but if you leave them like that and this is why I say they can be a bit dangerous or misleading they don't actually, you don't achieve anything. Um, they're good for the day that you do activity because you talk about them and like I say they're important. But if they're left on a day that you do activity because you talk about them and like I say they're important, but if they're left on a wall, then you're not creating a culture by doing that.
Speaker 1:And so I think the next step is that you build behaviours underneath them, behaviours that how you're going to know that you're living that value. And it's a difficult step because there's not, it's not always easy. Like, if you've got a value of respect, um, you know how, what's the behavior that you want to see? But but you can, and you just have to think about it and and try and come up with something, even if it it's well, a behaviour of respect maybe and this you know, I'm sort of thinking of my time in France, where that came out. You know, it's a big thing in French culture that idea of respect throughout life, but particularly even within a rugby team and we had a behaviour where we were going to thank our fans, no matter what the result. It was really important that we'd go up and clap, particularly, you know, in France. You had a small group of loyal supporters that would follow you everywhere, and so as a sign of respect, you'd go and give them. You know, give them a clap, which teams would always do when you win, but often when you lose, you gap up straight into the changing room because you feel bad.
Speaker 1:But for a behaviour like that, I think it's really powerful, because then you can point to it and say, right, are we being respectful? Are we trying to be that team? Are we doing the things we want to do to live that vision? And it's a lot easier to point to that than just the the value that's written on the wall, um and and in a similar way, like you know, my all black time, a value that often came out, was being grounded. You know, because that again you talk about wider culture within new ze culture, like the All Blacks are put up really high. But a real key thing almost to a fault with the New Zealanders is that as big as you get, your feet are on the ground. You've still got to be the Kiwi lad that grew up playing rugby in the backyard. It can't go to your head. And so we'd always have that value of being grounded.
Speaker 1:But what was the behaviour? How do we know we're being grounded? And that's where a lot has been made out of this. But the sweep the floor, that was a behaviour that was identified as to how us, as All Blacks, showed we weren't bigger than the game. You know, wherever we played and wherever it was whether it was a training ground or after a big test match we would always clean the changing room, and it didn't matter if we'd won a test match by 30 and we wanted to go out and celebrate. You weren't. You know it wasn't such a big game that you were going to leave a job like cleaning the floor to you weren't? You know it wasn't such a big game that you were going to leave a job like cleaning the floor to someone else. You know you can still pick up your the tape you tear off your socks or the strapping tape you had on your shoulder. You don't leave that to someone else. You're a. You're a New Zealander. You can do that. Um, clean up after yourself so that and those ones are the ones that stick home, they speak to your values or behaviour, you can identify during a season and know that you're on the right path.
Speaker 1:And then the last thing probably is and arguably the most important is the leadership. So within a good culture, you need leaders, and the easiest way to define leaders for me are the ones that live those. So the behaviours you've identified leaders just do them without even thinking, without being asked. They do them all the time and they'll pull someone else up, which is a hard bit if they're not doing it. And I even think of myself through my own career.
Speaker 1:I'd see things when I'd start and that probably weren't the behaviours that I wanted to see in a team, but I wouldn't speak up. And that's because you're young. That takes experience, but by the end I you know, I pride myself on always calling someone out and and you do it respectfully. But it could be as simple as mate, you know, don't leave your, don't leave your sock tape. There we're, um, we're not bigger than the game. Pick that up, we'll clean the clean the changing room or anything like that. But that's those leaders and the importance of a group within your team that take that role can't be undervalued and can't be understated. And you get all those bits right and it's not easy then you start, I think, building a good culture.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love it. I've got one question on that is when you talked about, like, the behaviours underneath the values. Who sets those? Is that the coach's job?
Speaker 1:Good question. I mean, I think it depends. I think a lot of these things like the ideal scenario is teams, because if you want them to buy in, teams are coming up with a lot of this stuff. But in saying that, you know, if we're speaking generally, like if you're talking about an under 10s or a, probably in a professional environment, you might have to guide it a little bit. And that's where you know you do get people that are specialised in this field, but it could be a coach, it could be someone that has that role within your team, within your management, and you can guide those sort of conversations. But if it's not thought of by the players, then it has to be at least have some sort of player input if you're going to get buy-in.
Speaker 2:So that example you said about sweeping the change rooms with your blacks, was that in or was that brought in as an… you?
Speaker 1:know, I don't even, I can't, like it probably could have been, but I can't even remember, like it wasn't as if we had a team session and someone came up with that, like it could have just been a real natural involvement.
Speaker 1:You know how that came to be and because, as I say, I've been asked about that a lot of times and it was never something that we like, as I say, we didn't write that on the wall, it was just one of these behaviours that we always sort of talked about. So how it came about I'm not really sure, but, um, at the same time, we did have team sessions where we think of, definitely think of our values and then try to think of behaviors. But, yeah, it can, it can happen quite naturally and organically that you just uh think of them with with time and and that's what works, because, as I say, you need a buy-in, and so it might not always come up when you're sitting around in a room. It might come up later on, when you see something or when you identify something that you want to do.
Speaker 2:And I do notice that some of those coaches that you're in the All Blacks there, particularly like Steve, he actually gets on the broom as well, right, like it's the whole organisation, not just the players. And as a coaching point of view, if you're in there mucking in as well, it's like at home if I'm doing the dishes, then the kids feel like, oh, that's part of what we're going to do as well, so they come up and join. They need a lot of prodding, to be fair.
Speaker 1:Well, and then you'd like talk about leadership. I think that's um like coaches have to lead, like that might be sound silly or obvious, but but it it's absolutely true. And coaches don't always lead, like that's also true, um that they probably miss that step, but it's, it's absolutely important, though those behaviors say they apply to everyone and everyone's in on that. It's a big part of the culture and, if I went back, even the key of that vision at the start, it's got to be a vision for everyone and we, I know in the all-black environment, it applied to the starter, it applies to the captain, the coach, the bench player that comes off, the guy that doesn't even get picked in the 23, and it applies to the physio, the media manager. Everyone's got to be in on that and that's the true sense of the team.
Speaker 2:Yeah, have you got any? When you said coaches don't lead, what if they're not leading, if they're not partaking in this stuff? What does it feel like from a player's perspective when a coach is not being seen to be part of a team, say, say, if the value is, we always sweep the change room. If the coach isn't doing that, how's that coming across? What sort of sentiment is that festering in a team, is it?
Speaker 1:palpable. Players are amazing at picking that up too, and because it might not even be that obvious, you know, it might not, it might just be the coach. It's the last person to clean up or the. You know what I mean. Like it might not be a deliberate thing, but that's what coaches have got to be so aware of. I think that players pick up on the the littlest things and and it just it chips away at the trust and the. That's what you don't want. Like that's as a coach, you, you want to be and and it's hard, it's challenging. Like I don't apologize around that like it's a tough gig coaching, um, but you, you've got to be. If you're asking a lot of your players, then you've got to ask that of yourself and you've got to always be living the whole of the standards, the behaviours that you preach, and you've got to be on all the time which, yeah, character or responsibility, but that's the gig.
Speaker 2:Would you agree with the statement? If you're not going to do it yourself, maybe don't ask it. Is that a better policy?
Speaker 1:Because that's what goes back to it. If you think that's a big ask, then don't ask it, because the worst thing you're going to do is ask it and then not be able to do it yourself. And that's, yeah, because it's a really good point that I think you've got to be careful. And what you're asking of your players or of your team, um and it's an easy sort of one to go back to would that? Would I do that myself, and am I going to be able to do this myself every day all season long? Um, and if not, then maybe maybe you haven't got, maybe, what you're asking is a bit much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, you certainly learn that as a coach. As you go, you sort of start off with all these ideals and sort of dreams yeah, we're going to be this, this and this. But if you go too broad, you often find yourself struggling and just treading water yourself as a coach. You're like, oh gee, I've got to do all this stuff which I've said and and sometimes it's better just to not say some stuff and build into it as you get better as and more experienced and have a better weathered skin as you go right, yeah, I agree agree, I'm not coaching, so I can say these things, because well, it's important.
Speaker 2:It's important the perspective, because a player's perspective is is reality like uh, uh, if you're feeling as a player or you've got an element of distrust, that's reality. Like whether it's true or not, it doesn't matter. That sentiment sinks in, doesn't it? And then that sentiment goes back into the change room and then that spreads almost can spread like poison. Right, and as a coach, you don't want poison spreading throughout a change room.
Speaker 1:No, and yeah, I mean, you're right, it's something as a coach you then sort of it goes beyond your control, it's out of your hands, you know, and this is what the players believe. And then you've got to work really, really hard to. You've got to work hard to gain the trust and and you can lose it pretty quickly. So, um, yeah, there's a, there's a lot of things involved and you've got to start all you can control and and and do that, I suppose yeah, that's right, mate.
Speaker 2:hey, now you talked about just before about your lead, your leadership personally, and you learned to speak up as you progressed as a junior player to a senior player. Obviously, you started at the Hurricanes young and then you went on to play 126 games and you ended up being captain and the season you left. They then won the whole thing after you left. So I thought that's a funny stat you leave up to 126 games and then you finally win a championship. Don't want to put anything out there, snakey, but you know, is it coincidence? I don't know. But the question is, mate, how did you develop as a leader? Like you said, you weren't speaking up. You saw things but you weren't speaking up. And how did you develop as a leader? Like you said, you weren't speaking up. You saw things but you weren't speaking up. And how did coaches good coaches along the way help draw that leadership out of you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, good question. I suppose it has to come from within. Like I know, I always had coaches pushing me and saying you know, we'd want more from you. Even I think of Colin Cooper, who was my first coach, and I suppose he might have seen something. He was always asking you know, I'd love you to be a bit more of a leader, take a bit more of a responsibility, but I'm not always sure. You know, it's something that has to come from within and I'm not sure when it came for me.
Speaker 1:I suppose it more came personally when I realised that there was a void there that I had to fill, and it wasn't the greatest circumstances within the Hurricanes we went through a few years later, a bit of transition, lost a lot of players and Mark Hammett asked a few guys to leave who were in leadership roles and it was probably a low point of my career personally because these were guys I'd been best mates with Andrew Hoa Ma'a.
Speaker 1:Probably a low point of my career personally because you know these were guys I'd been best mates with Andrew Hoa Ma'a, you know, left the club and with them I think it was about four or five Nemea Te Alada, jose Gear, piri, weepu, you know, all left the Hurricanes and they were the group pretty much that I'd started with and we'd all sort of started outside of Hori, the other guys we'd also started at the same time. And I know that was a pretty pivotal point for me because suddenly I was like, well, I can't look elsewhere now it's on me. And I could have. I know Victor Vito was there. I remember talking to Mark and saying, well, if you're not comfortable, we can ask Victor to sort of captain. But he was still young and that for me it was just like right, I'm either going to carry on cruising or I've just got to step up here. I'd had enough experience by then.
Speaker 2:Did you feel like you were cruising beforehand when you reflect on that?
Speaker 1:And that's what I say it was probably. My lingering regret is that, like, I know what Mark saw and the change we needed within that hurricane environment. But, oh, you know, I'd love to go back if I could and say, right, this is what I'm going to do and we're going to keep all these guys here, but we'll make the change ourselves. And because he obviously looked at it and thought, right, I've got to start new, I need a clean sheet of paper to work off. And they played on him, like that's what he saw.
Speaker 1:And I actually understand, you know, even for myself, looking back, but I would have loved to have stood up at the time and said, you know, let's do this with the guys we've got, and who knows what would have happened and if it would have worked out, because, ultimately, I genuinely believe what Mark did paved the way for the victory. We talked about how they won. I mean, I left, but the year before we, you know, we qualified top, we, uh, we lost the final. But you know, those games are ones that could have been played, you know, could have gone either way. And, yeah, your battle in those competitions is to make finals, I think.
Speaker 2:And what was? What was the like? I guess it was a cultural piece that mark ham was trying to do, wasn't it? It was just change things up like something needed to change, and and he saw the easiest way, the quickest, best, like the most seamless way of doing it is just out with the old start again. That was his mindset and theory.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think and he wouldn't mind me saying this because I know we got really close through this.
Speaker 1:And then the next couple of years, um, where I did captain and, and you know he, he was, he was great. Like I say, it was a challenging start but, um, he was very influential. You know, for myself and um, you know my own journey, I suppose that started at that time at taking on the captaincy, but, yeah, he, he'd come in for a year and and I suppose, tried to work with the existing um environment and and then ultimately made the decision, if I'm gonna, you know, he was brought in to make some changes and huge gutsy call, like a lot of coaches would have just battled away and and tried to work with what they had. But you know, he, he, no, I need to get rid of some of the established players here and to make this the way I want it to work, and that's what he did. And it was like, I say, a big call but in the end it was something we had to live with and for myself personally it was a massive growth period, I suppose.
Speaker 2:Massive kick. Was there a little bit of you? That probably kicked you a little bit more was like. Everyone else is out. I'm the only one left standing. I've got to change, otherwise I'll be next on the block.
Speaker 1:I actually. Well, I suppose in the end there were parts of me that understood what Mark was doing Like, I think, like within the hurricanes and it's so hard to talk about this because you know I had mates playing and the coaches before Mark were great. It's not as if they were making mistakes that led, and you know it's difficult to pinpoint what had happened within the hurricanes. But there is no doubt that I looked at that team and we were cruising, we were a team, and this is what I think is a common misconception within people outside of sport. They'll look at a team that might not, as the Hurricanes hadn't been achieving what probably was expected of us and they'll think, oh, the team's dysfunctional or they're not getting on, and we'd have those sort of rumours swirling all around us. But often it's the case, and when I think of the Hurricanes, we got along, we were actually just mates and so we weren't challenging each other. So I think in that time and I I loved it, like you were there, like we I actually enjoyed the experience, but it was as if we weren't bold enough to challenge each other, and so there were too many like myself who were seeing things that weren't behaviours of a team worthy of winning a championship and you wouldn't do anything about it because you were just all in that sort of zone. And you know, we enjoyed the time we had together and we sort of sort of the All Blacks is that-performance environment where everyone challenged each other. But that wasn't us. We were the, you know, at that time we were the Hurricanes that just prioritised being mates over that and it wasn't conducive to winning a title.
Speaker 1:And yeah, I just want to be like saying all that I am generalising hugely, but that was sort of the the, the feeling um that I had.
Speaker 1:And I suppose Mark Hammett, he came from a crusades environment which was rich with success and and that's what he probably saw and said, look, he tried to work with it but in the end said, right, I'm gonna strip it right back and um, and and then, yeah, for me it was like, okay, this is the time I I can people that know me know I'm fiercely competitive. So I sort of knew I'd been um in that environment for long enough and and now I sort of was going to make a difference. I couldn, couldn't, I went through that pain and I wasn't just going to sort of sit by and go through any more of it, because it was hurting me that the hurricanes weren't successful. I was going into this all black environment seeing what worked and I could see no reason why we couldn't adapt it. You can't just copy and paste things from one thing to another, but I knew the Hurricanes, we could be better than what we were.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and what was some of the stuff that came in? You had a clean slate then. What were some of the cultural pieces which came in straight away, like now, what was the change? Because ultimately you went on, the Hurricanes are right up there as a top four side now, which probably they always should have been but never quite got. So what were some of the big rocks? That was right. This is in now.
Speaker 1:culture wise yeah, I, I think, um, like bringing in. You know we brought people in and and, to be fair, like we, we were so like. I still remember the nerves I had before that first season because we didn't. We suddenly didn't have our star power, which I'd never experienced in a hurricane, but we had a bunch of talented kids. Like we're talking this is when the TJ Perenaras, the Bodie Barrett you know they were all there, dane Coles but they were kids and you didn't know the players they were going to turn into. Yeah, and they played because you saw what they could do, but suddenly it was so the focus was just on what's this team going to do? Like because we knew we were coming up against some amazing teams and Super Rugby and suddenly we weren't one of them. We just had, like it was my favourite year.
Speaker 1:In the end it was my easily the most enjoyable Super Season and rival. You know most of my All Black seasons that year. You know we were totally written off, complete like scathing, scathing articles about what Mark Hamer had done to the Canes, how we were going to lose every game, lucky to beat. You know we'd pick up one game at home against South African team. I still remember you know those articles so, and we ended up beating every New Zealand franchise that year and it was because we just focused on what we could do and and being hurricanes and being proud and and I remember, like you talked about goals, I remember saying to the team my goal. We get to the end of the season and everyone wants to be a hurricane, that's it. We didn't talk about winning the title. I wasn't going to, you know, bullshit them into thinking we were suddenly, you know, gonna take out super rugby, um, and we didn't even talk about making the playoffs. We just said I just wanted everyone to want to be a hurricane again because that has been lost.
Speaker 1:Like we just had a season where seven or eight of our stars had left half of them willingly, you know, and that hurt me like I didn. I didn't care where you finished on a table. You don't want teams leaving, you know. You don't want to go through, spend six, seven months together and then guys want to go off and join another mob. That cut me deep. So that was our goal and that's, you know. And that, I think, was a lesson that you don't have to focus on results, and often it's the best way to bring a team together. You know you're just about to. It's not about just having fun. You, you want to, you want you, you're there to win, but you, you want to. It's. It's more than that. You know, you want to create something special within your group and and that's, everyone buys into that well, was it a was it a more challenging environment from the outset?
Speaker 1:um, yeah, I, I'd like to think so challenging in terms of challenging of each other, like that. That's definitely the the one thing we wanted to improve and knew we we needed, you know, with internally challenging of each other, challenging and coaches like we said at the start, they had to be in on that like coaches challenging each other, me leadership group challenging, like that, that's absolute gold for a team.
Speaker 2:You'll know yourself, like that's what a team um needs, needs all the time and it's challenging from a coaching perspective perspective because it's often a word that's used, but sometimes it's disguised as a just a word to disguise being an asshole. Sometimes, yeah, and it's loosely used. I challenge the players around, whatever, and have you seen an example? How has it done? Well, what's a good example of a coach challenging you as a leader or a team? Because I've seen it in times where Good question, yeah.
Speaker 1:I know what you mean and it has to be like there has to be an end motivation, like you can't just be challenging someone for the sake of it. And that absolutely does happen. And I know and you often see it from coaches that they almost feel like I just had to challenge him to get something out of him. Like if it's making you become a better player, then all right, it's warranted. If it's making the team get better, then do it. But if you're not reaching an end point and so the challenging just becomes an argument, then it's not worthwhile. And so I think that's where you want to get to. It's challenging to the point that we're all in this together, we're making the team getting better, and you know that ultimately through that, through challenging of each other, you're coming together at the end point at a better place than where you started. So you're right, it's a crucial part, but it's got to be done well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it does, and it's a good point you made around. Sometimes coaches are just saying just to feel like they've done something, that's the bit. You've just got to be. Same as like not being able to follow through on living the behaviors. It's the same if you're challenging with no point, no outcome, it's just getting angry. It's like with your kids at home If you just get angry for no reason, they're like don't listen to Dad from now on, because he's just rambling again. Had too many beers watching the rugby on the couch, get away from him. But it is a sentiment, mate. The other sentiment I was keen. You obviously went through. You and Mark Hammer got pretty tight in that period and I can only imagine, as a coach for him, trying to change that environment so publicly. He must have weathered a lot and he has spoken about it. But what did you see from a league captain just watching the coach go through that turmoil? Was it hard to watch in your position?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was. And especially, you know you get to know people and there's people behind the coach and you know Tash. We got to know the family pretty well and, as you often hear, it often impacts the families more than the people at the centre of it, because they become thick-skinned and Mark could take a fair bit. But you know there's a family that he goes home to that might not be used to that and don't enjoy that anywhere near that. Yeah, everyone enjoys it, but they can't put up with it the same. So, yeah, that's tough, might not be used to that and don't enjoy that anywhere near that. Yeah, you want to enjoy it, but they can't put up with it the same. So, yeah, that that's that's tough and, um, yeah, particularly when it's it's uh, it's not fair.
Speaker 1:You know like often you see people taking that on I'm not just talking about mark, but but others. You know that I've played with. That will cop criticism and we all as players, we acknowledge that in the public eye you're going to cop criticism and sometimes it's warranted. You had a bad game, but there's times when it's the people that do a lot of hours and then, when you question their effort or comments come in. They're the ones that hurt, even for myself that might have not been on the end of it, but to hear it and see it, that's tough, but you find ways to get through that.
Speaker 2:Did your relationship with coaches morph as you grew into senior roles, and how did that look like? Obviously, when you started up, you're a young player, but then you're a captain and leadership groups towards the end. Was it a friendship more than anything else at the end, or what was the balance of that?
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I think that has to be really strong. You talk about leadership and the importance of that and how it's not like it's a, it's never a captain's role either, like that's a really important part, like leadership in a team isn't, should never fall on a captain, it's a. It has to be a group of players, um, and then outside of that it has to be that relationship with your, that leadership group and your coaching staff and even higher up to an extent, at a board level, if it's a club who's running the club, then there has to be real alignment right through all of that. So for me personally yeah, I mean when you're kicking in the side you need a really good relationship. It can be a friendship. I think that depends a bit more on the personality of the coach, but in a working relationship you've got to have what we talked about before, that you've got to be able to challenge each other but knowing it's what's best for the team and that's how it motivates all those interactions.
Speaker 2:How have you gone about like you talked about? Leadership should never fall on a captain solely, and I completely agree with that. Sometimes coaches do put a lot of onus on a captain and in a lot of coaching spheres the common jargon is we're not leaders, we haven't got leadership. Know, leadership is not something we do, but I don't believe that leadership is something which a coach takes onus on coaching around. How do we become better leaders? How do we grow this group of leaders? Have you had teams and coaches that have done a really good job of saying to you Conrad, you're going to be captain and I'm going to bring these guys around you and I'm going to educate you guys and this is how I'm going to do it specifically and taught you ways to get better in that responsibility and your crew around you?
Speaker 1:Has anyone done that?
Speaker 2:for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and to be like the all black environment. They were very good at that, because you sort of talk the same way within a coach, like it's almost a, it's a specific skill and and so your head coach might be good at that and he might not be, or she, and if it's not, again it's there's the head coach but there's a management group. So absolutely, to answer your question, someone within the team management needs to be helping like that. That has to be one of your goal. Like developing leaders within a team doesn't matter at what stage they're at. They're either got great leadership, in which case they need to, um, continue that and and no doubt, develop the ones underneath that, or whatever strength or however strong or weak your leadership is, it has to be a part of your plan to develop that, and that has to fall within someone in that management group. So it's either the coach that's really good at it Ideally it's the head coach so that they can work and have a close working relationship.
Speaker 1:But I know, and going back to the All Blackblack environment, we had someone like a gilbert inoka, you know. So he, he was there and absolutely that was part of his job description was developing the leaders within the all blacks and working with that leadership group. Um, and you know, we we also had graham henry, wayne smith, steve hansen, who were all, to be fair, probably saw the value of it, but they themselves would promote it and work with the leaders the whole time. I was involved in making them better.
Speaker 2:It's a fascinating concept and I think it's a cool one, snaky, that it's not just like a lot of coaches, particularly at club level as well.
Speaker 2:Well, you don't have a race like a crew, it's main sometimes just you. But that concept of if it's not your strength which it isn't for a lot, but how do you think outside the box and be open enough to bring someone into your environment to take on that role? And it could be at a club level, just someone that's in the business space, like a sponsor of the club or an old boy that that works with a big crew, that's good at chatting around this stuff that just comes in monthly or fortnightly. But I I think it's important to recognize your strengths and weaknesses as a coach. And if it's not similar to what we talked about before, if it's not quite you, if you're trying to jump in and do a half pie job on it, it can sometimes have a detrimental effect. Like trying to jump in and do a half-pie job on it, it can sometimes have a detrimental effect. Like trying to teach leadership when you're not great at it. You don't do it well can probably do the opposite.
Speaker 1:And I'd say it can be hard for a coach, depending on the player and that sort of relationship you have, because you might just be wanting to talk to the player about their leadership abilities and capabilities and that's not always linked to your playing abilities. You know what I mean and so it might be easier for a third party. And that's what I mean. Like the All Blacks, right, were blessed with resources. You know, the time I was there there was a Gilbert that could come in, but it was easy. Like when I was talking to Gilbert, we knew right. We're just talking about me as a leader. I'm not talking about my past, my tackle, anything else, whereas you know, if I'm talking about with Wayne Smith, he might want to talk about it but at the same time it's a different relationship and it's harder to nail and hone in on right. This is just about you, conrad, as a leader and what you can do better in this environment and put aside the rugby stuff just for a minute. So there is huge value.
Speaker 1:It was actually my time at Poe. I took on a high-performance role because I could see within our club leadership was a real. It was a weakness because myself, and without going into it. A lot of experienced players left the same time. I stopped playing and suddenly we had this really young group and I was, you know, I just looked at this team. I was like, right, what we actually need is to help these kids grow up really fast and and be leaders, because I just knew the value of leadership and it wasn't, you know, it didn't matter how good they were going to play on the field. Necessarily, we can do that and we were gonna. We had a coaching staff dedicated to that, but we had to have a focus just on, you know, doing the leadership stuff as well. And yeah, you can't sort of underrate that.
Speaker 2:Have you got any examples specifically like particularly what you got from Minoka or what you did with those young players, like some big, some easy wins in terms of the leadership?
Speaker 1:I think a lot of it. You know it's not, even when I'm talking about it now, like it's not as if it's a huge. It's not something you have to do entirely away from the field. It's not like you have to things you need two hours a day. You know you're doing all this rugby work and, oh, you've got this leadership core.
Speaker 1:It's nothing like that, but I think it's a lot of self-awareness, like you've got to, because to be a great, to be a good leader, you need to understand your own style. It's a big, big part of it, like you can't copy it from someone else and you can talk about even the great kittens I've played under, all very, very different, and so there's no one way and the main thing is it's got to suit your style. And so, in spending a bit of time to understand that and what works for you is really valuable and that doesn't come from a rugby coach. So well, it can, but as long as it's, you know it's not learn on the rugby field necessarily is what I'm saying. It's just understanding how you operate and what you can add to a team environment, I suppose. And so for me, you know, personally, it was just understanding the things that work for me and how I can influence you know, those around me and understanding of other players.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So essentially the big thing is there's no right or wrong way to leadership. You've got to find your style and then work with that style, to use it to your strengths, to add to any environment you're with. And it's not the big two-hour leadership blocks you're talking about, it's just that incidental stuff which goes along with your style. So when you're, when, when you're teaching or you know working with those younger crew, are you just really just making themselves aware of some of their strengths and weaknesses and that sort of thing? Is that just highlighting to them like, hey, mate, you're good at this, you know, use that, uh, when you're chatting to players, or how does it look on a daily basis? Yeah, I think like understanding.
Speaker 1:You go back to where I suppose we started, like the idea of culture and you sort of I think you've got to make people aware of how important that is to a team. And you know when you get that like, you know what you want to do, you know the importance of having a vision and how everyone needs to identify with that vision and obeyed by that, and then you just got to stress that the leadership is the one that's going to drive that and that falls on you guys, like if I'm talking on leadership group, that that falls on you and you have to find your way, how you're going to do that. So if you're you know, if you're the extrovert and you're the one that's often speaking, then you've got to make sure when you're speaking you're on point and you're bringing up the all the you know really important points. But if you, if you're like myself, you're a bit more introverted but you have really good friendships, then make sure when you have those conversations or whatever it is, then you've got to bring up those things, keep driving those messages, because that's your responsibility.
Speaker 1:You are the leaders now and we've got to push this message and we want to live these values and live these behaviors. It's all on you guys and you do it in your own way. You know like that's. It's almost left on you, but there's a responsibility there to do it. You can't opt out of that um and and, and I suppose you I'm sorry you can say like you can opt out, but that's you. You don't have to be a leader. That needs to be probably clarified. Leadership's not for everyone. I've seen that mistake made where you put it on people that they're just soldiers. There's plenty of great teams and you need your soldier that just does their own thing and that's fine. But a team needs their leaders and if you're in that role, then you've got to find your way to um influence the team mate.
Speaker 2:I can, I can attest to that mate. I was asked to be captain uh on one of the teams and, like I just said, no, I was like do I?
Speaker 1:to, he doesn't mind me. Tony Woodcock, absolute legend of a player, one of the best loose end props to ever play the game, and I know teams have tried just because he was experienced. Oh, we've got to give you this leadership and I'd wonder why he suddenly wouldn't be training as well, or he just didn't like it and it took like three or four years. Where it's like mate, the guy's a legend, he's a soldier, he's going to turn up and do his job every single day and you don't need to burden him with something like leadership. It doesn't suit him and you actually need players like that and every team will have guys like that. That um are absolutely valuable to the team, but by burning them with something that doesn't spit within their character, you know it's not going to help I agree, mate, like it's it's, and that's a.
Speaker 2:That's a skill of a coach, isn't it reading those guys? But but in specifically talking about Tony, there was that famous like in your era in the All Blacks. There was the six guys, which is well publicised. Yourself, kevin Milamu, dan Carter, ma Nonu, tony Woodcock and Richie McCaw was the group of those senior players which are entrusted with the vision of the All Blacks and you met regularly. Maybe you would fly off to wherever it was I think it was a Wellington or maybe a mixed round and as a six you would get together I don't know, was it three or four times a season, during season, and just talk about the looming All Black series or tour that was to go and Tony was in that. But how did that group come together and is that what you were talking about? A good example of the coaches of the All Black, steve Hansen at the time, trying to sell the vision to you guys to then filter that down through your clubs is that what it was?
Speaker 1:yep, yep, it was yeah, spot on. And and it came um, as things often do, like from failure. Like you sort of re-looked at things. I think 2007 was a World Cup that didn't go to plan, and I think out of that they realised a lot of the leadership models that they'd set up didn't work, and all of the things we've touched on already. It was a big leadership group. You brought in the people that didn't want to lead, weren't ready to lead, and then it all falls apart because then the whole authenticity drops away the other guys. So I was outside of that leadership group but I could see it wasn't really working because the group was too wide. There wasn't any real alignment because you didn't have a tight group. And so out of that we realized, look, sometimes less is more. You want real alignment, you want it. Obviously You've got to find a balance. You want to cover the whole team or squad, but you can't have a group of 13. The more you have, the harder it is to get that real sense of purpose, and you know that comes from a smaller group, and so that's.
Speaker 1:And then 2009,. You know, south Africans were on top of us and yeah, it was really. That's where we refined it again and saw the value of meeting through Super Rugby leading up to 2011, knowing what we wanted to do. We wanted to win a World Cup, but it had to be more than that to capture, you know, everyone within the squad and it was sort of bringing us together, testing their different ideas how we were going to do the whole campaign and bringing us along acknowledging, you know, this sort of that leadership group had to be absolutely buying in on everything we were going to do and, yeah, that was really the point and purpose of those meetings and that group that sort of carried on for the next, yeah, like you say, six seven years.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's a fascinating point you talked about. It started with the failures, yeah, and I think that's an important thing for coaches to just appreciate. Like this is at the all-black level, like this is the top of the game in the world and you're making fairly, fairly decent sized mistakes which impact world cups, and when you bring that scale that back down to like club coaching or school coaching or whatever sort of coaching, it kind of gives you a little bit of reprieve to know that you're not going to get everything right and it is an experiment and it's testing and you're dealing with people, so it's always going to be not a one size fits all sort of box. You've got to mold it to your style, the crew you've got, and I think that's a really important distinction that we sometimes stress about and worry about as coaches at all levels.
Speaker 2:That, oh no, I haven't. You know I've done that wrong. I'm a shit coach, but it's not actually being a shit coach. It's a process, isn't coach? It's a process, isn't it, of redefining, readjusting. It's constant and it never stops. Does it in your 94 games for the all blacks?
Speaker 1:it was a constant evolution of that, and we'd always like, because you don't want to wait for a lot like you don't want to, as all blacks, we didn't want to lose a quarterfinal before we realized we were doing something wrong, or lose three tests to the spring box, um, and and so I, I think, out of all that we realized, like that, exactly as you say, that constant evaluation, you try not to wait for a loss, you, you do it even when you're winning, you're critiquing what's going on, where a game's never perfect, even the games you win by a healthy margin, there will definitely be things within that that you didn't do right or, within your week that you didn't get right.
Speaker 1:And so I suppose it's using that approach that you're constantly re-evaluating, never getting ahead of yourself, and that's how you get consistency of performance and longevity of success. I think you just yeah, and, like I said before, these things are hard, they're not easy, but it's constantly critiquing your approach, critiquing the game, your culture, everything about you, and ideally, not waiting for a loss or a string of losses to to bring that sort of self-evaluation on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, love it and mate, what is it about? I have a question now which is kind of a personal question. Snakey, Obviously you became a very senior player in all the teams you've been through. What do you reckon it is about you that coaches saw that A kept you in the environment but then put you push through into those roles because I always laugh because I was playing with you when you made the all blacks and you honestly I'm not kidding you probably could only bench press about 60 kilos. Um, and you were skinny as heck. You were fast, but not real fast. Yeah, like, just everything about you is like, but, but coaches saw something in you which they went, yeah, and what do you reckon, if you're reflecting on it now you've had a little bit of time at coaching what do you think it was about you that drew coaches in?
Speaker 1:I think and you hear it used a bit, but being coachable is such an underrated asset. I just think, or I'd like to think, that coaches liked working with me, and that's an easy thing, Like I try to tell players now that's an easy thing for you to control, like listen, ask good questions and work hard like you could. Any person can do that. And this was my approach. You know like I was, as you say, like I wasn't strong. I was, there, was, there, was. There was no testing at the start of the year that I would get anywhere near the top at. So what, what else? What other option did I have? Well, jeez man, I was going to listen to everything a coach said. I'd follow it as much as I could, I'd ask good questions and I'd bloody work my arse off because I had to.
Speaker 1:And you sure did 60 kilos on the bench press and a trainer like the same S&C my first trainer, wendell. He was like God. What have we got here? I was pinned under the bench press in my first gym session.
Speaker 2:Mate, you were the shining light for a whole generation of players going. If that guy can make the All Blacks lifting that amount of weight, then everyone's an option, 100%.
Speaker 1:Don't let that stop you. But you've got to do the other things well.
Speaker 2:But I think, mate, that's a gold piece of information for coaches as well and what they're asking their players to do, and I think you're a cool example of that. Just those three things Listen, ask good questions and work hard. If you sort of set that into a psyche of all your players, it's going to set them up really well going forward. That's almost your bedrocks. It doesn't matter what you are physically, but just listen, ask your questions and work hard and be a coachable and someone that coaches like coaching. You're only going to get better. Not only are you going to get better, but inherently you're going to get picked for. People will pick you for teams and they'll drop you.
Speaker 1:That actually used to be my mantra, which seems silly, but because before that, like team coaches wouldn't pick me in the starting lineup because I was, you know, so weak and a little bit sluggish, but I knew they wouldn't drop me. They didn't want to drop me because I was the good kid that kept working and they wanted more like me. They'll drop the guy that doesn't turn up to train or is late to training. They'll drop the guy that you know answers back or doesn't listen. You know you're giving them an excuse to get dropped, whereas I was like, mate, you're going to keep wanting to pick me. I'm just going to keep doing what you tell me and this is what I think. You're probably going to need a little bit more than that to get a long way, but I tell you, I just wanted to play rugby. I wanted to play rugby for a living. I was like, wow, that's the least I can do.
Speaker 2:Well, mate, 43 games for Wellington, 126 for the Hurricanes, 52 for Powell, 94 for the All Blacks. Certainly didn't get dropped there, mate. You didn't get dropped from any of those teams, in fact. In fact, you didn't, did you? You always left on your own terms.
Speaker 1:Well, that's what I mean. I just keep living by that goal.
Speaker 2:And I'll go back to it. The day you left is the day the Hurricanes won the thing. Mate, you had a brief time post your playing career in PAL where you took on a bit of coaching. How did some of the stuff? What did you find that experience like and what did you draw out of your experiences as a player and leadership, particularly in the cultural piece? How did coaching go? When you had to go, you weren't able to actually physically do it. What was the difference? What was the struggle?
Speaker 1:It was I always, even as playing, because towards the end you are spending a lot of time with coaches. I think I was spending more time with coaches than your players towards the end of your career. But I knew it's a tough role and so when I stepped into it it was exactly as I expected. You know you realise the amount of work that goes in all to the tiniest gains. You know you're looking through hours of video to find and design one little play that might never work and that's you know. So I saw all that for real. But and also you know a couple of points we've touched on earlier.
Speaker 1:I realised that there were other things, because that's a good example won't spend any time developing leadership or developing a bit of character, which to me was like you're talking about return on investment. Like you can spend a couple of hours with a team that you'd otherwise study, line outs and actually get real returns on that. If you can get a group really aligned on what we're trying to do here and and vision and it's a bit it might sound eerie fairy to other people and and it's and you avoid it because it seems hard, but, as I say, like the returns you can get out of that. Make that one line out play or that one trick play that never gets used. You might reassess that. So they were the couple of things that jumped out at me with coaching. I'm obviously not doing it anymore.
Speaker 2:Couldn't handle it, mate Couldn't handle it. The pressure's got to you.
Speaker 1:To be honest, I saw it's a role that there's a lot of players coming out of the game that we're jumping at and we're keen on, and I saw my skill set more suited elsewhere.
Speaker 2:That's right, mo. Hey, I think you're right and I think you hit on something really massive there about that return on investment. And I think part of the reason why coaches sort of don't invest a lot of time in the culture and the leadership side of things is it's a little bit gray in terms of what you're getting back. You can't see it, whereas a trick play, even though you spend all that time doing it, if it does work, you can see it and you go yes, that made everything worthwhile. But working on the culture or your leadership, you can't. It's not tangible as such, it's a little bit in that gray zone. It on the culture or your leadership, you can't.
Speaker 2:It's not tangible as such. It's a little bit in that gray zone. It's not black or white like a specific move is, so you don't actually know if it's. It's hard to measure whether it's worked or not. So you've there's an element of trust and belief and faith in that which scares a lot of coaches off doing it, because coaching by nature is you want black and white, you want to know if you do this, you're going to get this, and it falls in the middle. It's a creative process, which is why we are talking about it on this podcast, because it needs a little bit more love and attention, and I think it's. It's the beauty of rugby, because rugby is chaotic and it's not a black and white game, it's. It sits very much in the gray zone.
Speaker 1:Oh, and I totally get that and and and. To be honest, like that's not my nature either, like I, I am absolutely a a black and white sort of person and even you know, when I started and you asked me about culture it's and I straight away went to that. To me that's quite a great question and why I answer it because I've been asked it a few times is the way I've sort of processed it and I start that vision, values, behaviours, leadership because that's me giving a great you had to put it in a flow diagram to make sense of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because that's the way I think. But that's what I mean. I think that's what coaches you have to do. You can't avoid culture, and so if you think of it as a grey and eerie, fairy thing, then that's not an excuse to avoid it. You've got to find out and get it into your process because that's the way I've done it. And then you, you know, within the team, that's the way I do it, um, and and have something more black and white, more tangible, so I can measure it. Um, because you can't. You know it's value. You ask anyone that's played, anyone that's been in a team, knows the value of getting. You know, just that feeling of getting more from being in a team than what you'd give as an individual. Like, there's no doubt about that. So if you take that as your starting point, then it's just for you and your team to figure out how you're going to achieve that.
Speaker 2:Oh, I love that Snakey. That's bloody awesome, mate. Love it, love it. I'll just cut and paste that last one segment, that last one-minute segment of you getting fired up about culture. Love it. Now, mate, we have come to the end and I'm just going to finish with one question because it intrigues me, this question. The question is is there any belief you have about rugby in any facet that you believe in that you reckon your peers, your contemporaries or the wider rugby public would actually disagree with?
Speaker 1:Yeah, what have you got? Because I'm not even a thinker the whole notion around academies and identifying kids young for their own benefit to bring them into academy. I just am completely against that whole notion and I've got a few reasons and I know maybe I know not everyone would disagree. I think there's a lot that would support the idea, but just for me, I think rugby and a lot of sports are at various levels, but they're all going down this, what I see as quite a slippery slope in terms of grabbing talent, and we're talking 13-, 14-year-old guys and girls and thinking that for them to be a high-performing rugby player, netball player, whatever it is, they need to be focusing on that sport at a young age and that they'll only get better by doing that and by playing other sports or even spending more time at school. That's only going to slow their progress down, and for a number of reasons. So I don't actually think that's even true for the individual. I think they benefit and I lived through this. So of course I'm going to say this. But you know, you actually can you get real gains from other sports. You get massive gains from from school that you can't even quantify, like what I learned playing cricket growing up who knows? But I actually believe that it helped my rugby being competitive in other sports, seeing picking up the little skills and that you do, but also the balance that it gives to you. Absolutely, there's no doubt. So, for the individual itself, I actually think you're not actually providing any head start by making them play only one sport.
Speaker 1:But the other danger and it's almost a bigger danger is to the kids that don't make the academy, and because what we're actually creating is this high-performance environment at a really young age that then sends all the wrong messages around participation, because if you don't make that team or that academy, what are you meant to do? And this is why we see kids stop playing sport, because suddenly it's already the focus of well, you only play sport to make a team, which is fine when you're 19, 20, because you can deal with those sort of situations. But when you're 12, 13 and I haven't made an academy, do I keep playing? But because to everyone else it's all about making a team and making the next team and getting that selection, and so you get the strop off, whereas for me, 13 and 14, 15, 16, you're playing because you enjoy the sport and you enjoy playing with your mates.
Speaker 1:And whether I make the academy or not, who cares? And it's not like everyone's going to be competitive. I find it odd that people say, oh, we need to keep driving the competitiveness and we need to pick representative teams because we want to know how far they're going to go. You're going to work that out anyway, like I didn't. You know, I came through playing all these different sports, different, went to school, did all that, never trained more than a couple of times a week.
Speaker 2:I saw that in the gym, the bench press.
Speaker 1:But there you go, like I could have been going to the gym. I'm sure someone would say to me oh, if I got you going to the gym when you were 13, focusing on right, you could have been so much better. I don't agree. I do not agree. You've got so much time to make all that development. And I see it like I've got kids now.
Speaker 1:And I say all this because I see, like teams you know rep teams getting selected when they're 10, 11. And I see what it does to those, as I said right at the start, like they're getting all this extra training and they're thinking now that they're going to be superstars. And the ones that don't make it are like oh, you know, some of them, some of them are already giving up, some of them aren't, but you can see what's going to happen. Whereas just leave them, leave them to play, leave them to be kids for as long as you can like, and then at the end of high school, when the mature people, I can make decisions about stuff like this, but I just really worry about the way you know, not just for the, as I say, the high performance, but for sport in general, when we just want kids to be playing sport. I do not agree with you know the way academy to run and even the idea of selecting them into representative teams, but that would be it.
Speaker 2:I love it, mate. Well, it's actually really I do love it. I'm certainly on your page, I think. Just to continue, this dash is I think what's become prevalent is the Tiger Woods sort of mentality of specification.
Speaker 2:Early he's the example of a two-year-old, was into it, just hammering, hammering. But what is forgotten? I heard this lovely, I can't remember where I heard it and read a bit of footage on it, whereas he's the absolute anomaly. Like he's not memorable. The Roger Federer, on the other hand, is the guy that didn't specify until late teens, like until he was 20, and he played rugby, he did all sorts of other stuff. He till he's 20 and he played rugby, he did all sorts of other stuff. He is the norm, he is the Conrad Smith. So you've got the Roger Federer versus Tiger Woods. Now, roger Federer model, where you do everything, you play all sorts of sports, is actually the you like. He is the greatest in his sport and he's done it through diversification and trying all these different things and then eventually, when he's at a time late in his 20s, it goes. That's, that's what I'm passionate about. That's where I'll go.
Speaker 2:But we sensationalize tiger woods's story and we latch on to that exception, that, that absolute extremity of training it to onwards. And we think that must be how to do it because it's a, it's like a hollywood story, it's that movie, whereas most people can't stick to that you wouldn't want to because all the negative aspects of that too right. So it's just reframing how we pitch, like the examples and I think your example, the Roger Federer example, are really good examples for kids. And you never know the bits of your cricket, for example, which has made you a better rugby player at the end. And would you have got there without it? I actually speculate you wouldn't have. Yes, you might have been bench pressing 150 at 18 years of age, but you would have lost that other skill set by not doing the cricket, not doing those other sports, not studying well, not finishing your school properly. All that stuff makes you and on that point, around you talk about Tiger and.
Speaker 2:Peter and even myself finishing your school properly.
Speaker 1:All that stuff makes you yeah, and, and you know, on that point, around you talk about Tiger and Federer and even myself, but like, there are thousands upon thousands of athletes, so whether it's golfers, tennis players, rugby players that don't even make it, you know, this is, this is what we need to focus on, and and so where are they? Like what? What is better for them being spending all this time at one sport, and then they don't make it, and so they then, in the worst case of you know, if you're a kid in england and you've gone into a football academy from when you're 10 and you don't even you barely go to school, like what? What are you left with? Rebuilding? I know we're getting on to a big picture, because this is a real big picture of mine. I should say I'm not academies per se.
Speaker 1:I've seen great academies that let kids go to school and all it is is just giving them a bit of a top up because they love their sport. That's fine. It's just when it gets to the extent that you're actually, you know, denying other kids opportunities and starting to fix the kids that make it on this one line of a sport which we know, and what is it the 1%, half a percent that actually make it from the ones that participate? So yeah, I just think we need a real reality check around what we're setting up.
Speaker 2:I love it, conrad. That brings us to the end, and I think it's a nice end too, because it does go in line with your current role, which is the Player Association of World Rugby. And it's great to see, mate, that that's your viewpoint in your stance, because you're actually in a position where you can actually implement some things which help this be part of our culture, for professional rugby players at least, but rugby across the board. So, mate, love the passion there and look forward to your influence on the next generation of rugby players as we go. Thank you, my friend, for your time. Uh, chatting to me on this podcast about culture. It's been an absolute pleasure, as it always is keep chatting for hours.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean yeah we certainly could mate.
Speaker 2:We certainly could. Here are my final three takeaways from a conversation with conrad. Certainly could. Here are my final three takeaways from a conversation with Conrad. Number one was the use of the word challenge. When you say, as a coach, that you're challenging the players, there has to be an end motivation, an outcome to reach or an end point. If it's making the player a better player, it's warranted. If it's making the team better, do it. Often, as Conrad reflects, some coaches just challenge because they feel like they should or they're antsy or stressed. But if you always constantly reflect, when you say you're challenging players, that there's an end motivation is to make the team better. That's the reason to be doing.
Speaker 2:Number two being coachable. Conrad said a big part of his success was the fact that he was coachable and coaches liked coaching. He said the big three things were that he listened, asked good questions and he worked hard. He didn't give coaches an opportunity to drop him or an excuse to drop him. I think this is fantastic advice for coaches to realise and to pass on and to live by for their players, because it's an easy thing to control. If you can pitch to your players the importance of being coachable, you'll find that your teams and your environments are richer and better. Number three your return on investment. I think this is a lovely metaphor to the business world, where every decision you make you have to weigh up the return on investment. Often, as coaches, we find ourselves up late at night watching video, going through hours and hours of tape. But when we stop and think about, is this a good return on investment of our time, we might find we're better served to have a cup of tea. Jump into bed and recharge the batteries instead. Until next time, stay safe.