Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Richard Cockerill: Rugby's Straightshooter. You can't pretend to be a good version of someone else.
TEXT US HERE If you have feedback or requests for the show!
Richard Cockerill cuts through the buzzwords to deliver a masterclass in building winning cultures across two decades of elite coaching. The former Leicester, Toulon, Edinburgh, England and current Georgia coach shares his refreshingly straightforward philosophy: be on time, wear the right kit, and work hard – non-negotiable standards that have underpinned championship teams throughout his career.
Cockerill reveals the evolution of his notoriously confrontational coaching style, explaining how his game-day intensity has remained while he's learned to separate field behavior from off-field relationships. "Off the field, treat the person as the person, not the player," he reflects, highlighting how this distinction creates healthier team environments while preserving high standards. His preference for direct, face-to-face conversations stems from a belief that clarity prevents issues from festering, even when conversations are uncomfortable.
The conversation dives deep into coaching under pressure, from surviving a 1-7 start during a World Cup period at Leicester to adapting his leadership approach for an entirely different culture with the Georgian national team. Cockerill's journey exemplifies how authentic leadership evolves without abandoning core principles. As he puts it with characteristic bluntness: "Coaching is an opinion. You can't pretend to be a good version of someone else." This episode offers invaluable insights for coaches and leaders at all levels seeking to build consistent, high-performing cultures while remaining true to themselves.
Join us for an unfiltered look at leadership from one of rugby's most distinctive voices, where you'll discover why sometimes being both "reasonable and unreasonable" might be exactly what your team needs.
https://www.learnfastapp.com/
Learnfastapp
It gives you real-time insights into how clearly you’re getting your message across.
Learnfastapp
It gives you real-time insights into how clearly you’re getting your message across.
There's an issue, there's a problem, right, I'm going to go and confront it head on because I'm in charge and they need to know I'm in charge and I'm going to show them. I'm in charge Because everybody's an individual and everybody can be themselves and that's cool. Just not in my team. They can't. Day one. It's like that, you know Day 1001, it will's like that, you know day 1001. It'll be like that, off the field, treat the person as the person and not the player. It's actually when you're coaching. It's actually a lot nicer environment when you're the coach. As the coach, you're being nicer to people. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:welcome to coaching culture, the podcast about cultivating leadership and culture. I'm ben herring and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's episode is with richard cockrell. Cockers, as he is known, is a set-piece specialist who drives immense standards. He's coached some of the very best teams across Europe Leicester, toulon, edinburgh, the English national side and now the Georgian national side. As all coaches that last over two decades coaching at the highest level, there's a huge amount of reflection, contemplation and adjustment in what he does and is doing. Let's hear what it's all about, cockers. What a pleasure to have you here all the way from Tbilisi. First up, mate. The question that I always love asking is how do you define culture?
Speaker 1:mate, the question that I always love asking is how do you define culture? Yeah, good question. Um not sure I know the answer. Um for me, I suppose um um hard work, knowing what you're about, um your behaviors every day. I mean you've you've played for me, you've worked for me, so you'll know better than anybody how um reasonable and unreasonable I can be at the same time is that?
Speaker 2:is that possible to be reasonable and unreasonable at the same time?
Speaker 1:well, it seemed to be for me, um. So no, I think look, culture's about behavior and and and it's sort of a bit of a buzzword, isn't it behavior? Well, what does it look like? For me, I have, as a head coach, I've always had the belief and you'll have seen it in every team I've coached be on time, because you can't do anything if you don't turn up on time. I want you to be in the right kit and I want good work ethic. So for me, that's that's, that's a good culture, isn't it? Because if you've got those three things and you've got good people in the room, um, which you don't always have at the start, but hopefully at the end you do.
Speaker 1:I think that's part of um, good, good culture, um, and for me, I sort of describe it as normal human behavior. You know, like you know, we've both got kids. Well, you want them to be on time, don't you? You know you want them to be smart, you know you send them to school in their uniform or they have to work, and you want them to have a good work ethic. So I don't think I'm asking too much. I'm just asking for a bit of normal human behavior which I find sometimes in the modern world is hard to combine because everybody's an individual and everybody can be themselves and that's cool. Just not in my team they can't, and I don't mean that in a negative way. I want people to bring their individualness and their personality and their quirkiness, but there has to be a framework that you all work to, because that's team environment, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Do you sort of expect people with big personalities, with individuals, to mould to essentially those three principles before they can bring out their personality or an individual quirkiness?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think so. I think it's important, isn't it? Because generally, the best players have the biggest influence, because they and the quirkiness of that and people that are confident in themselves like to be different and that's cool. But there still has to be a framework that we all work to. You know, you can be, as you know me, and you are very different people. We work together.
Speaker 1:I coached you, um, but there was a framework that we work to the bits of. You know, the differences in personality and how we want to live our lives or how we see the world are cool, like and I've probably become more rounded to that the more mature I've got as a coach and a person but it has to be a framework. You know, I want someone to come and watch the teams I coach and they go, yeah, smart, organized, well disciplined, they look like a team and that probably reflects probably a bit of my own personality. But well, but well, as everybody says, you know, the team personality reflects the coach's personality to a point, doesn't it? So I mean, and that's just how I see it, whether whether people agree with me or not is a different matter, because we all see the world differently, but, um, for me that makes makes a sound starting point for work and getting better is those three things. Anybody that's ever been coached by me will have seen that on a slide somewhere. You'll have seen it before, mate. I'm not teaching anything new here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, mate, I have, and I know that about you. And what's cool, what I love about that, cock, is you're right when you said that culture is a buzzword. A lot of people say it and to change it from just a buzzword, you actually got to put some sort of structure of what it actually is like. So it's not this ethereal thing which you don't know. And what you've just said is three very definite things be on time, wear the right kit, work hard and that that's that. That is a very clear, defined. There's no buzz about that. That's just matter of fact and that's quite true, and I'm quite straightforward.
Speaker 1:I mean, look, I'm a quite straightforward human is that if you can't do those three things, me and that person's never going to be able to work together?
Speaker 2:What do you do as a coach mate when that's clearly the case?
Speaker 1:Well, firstly, I point out that, look, this is. You know, I've got 35 players and there's one person that doesn't want to do it. Well, this isn't my issue, this isn't the team's issue, this is your issue. I want you to be part of the team, but to be part of this team. You have to. I want you to be part of the team, but to be part of this team.
Speaker 1:There has to be a little bit of conformatism, because otherwise, how does any organization as a team work together? Now, if you're an individual sports person, do what you want, because it only affects you. But how people behave, and you know, because if I've got one person that refuses to wear the right kit or refuses to turn up on time, then what's that saying to everybody else? Well, if he can do it, why can't we do it? And then the whole thing becomes rabble, doesn't it? It all becomes and that's just, and some people will think that's great and some people go oh, you know, it's too, you know too much authority and it's all a bit, you know, but that's the game, isn't it? Because, ultimately, what we're trying to do, we're trying to produce a team that can play and win at the weekend or on match day, when they're under pressure. What do you need? You need teamwork, you need togetherness, you need discipline and it starts day one, doesn't it? That's just you know. That's just my thoughts.
Speaker 2:I love it, mate, because I know when you're talking about day one. I know your stance on day one is you get up and you go. This is how it's going to be and you set the stall out straight off the bat, don't you? When you've moved into teams, you come in and I've heard you say that you set your stall out in order to. I'm going to take this by the reins. This is how it's going to be, and I'll sell for the first bit until we all are clear and we're all.
Speaker 1:And look, it's a non-negotiable, it's not a oh, can we just be a few minutes late or can we just, you know, could I just wear a different t-shirt, or can I sort of, you know, can I sort of worked hard, but not really work hard, and because? And what's hard work? For the percent, you know what? What I think is hard work and what you think is hard work might be two very different things. So, um, and I think that was a really unique thing Well, not unique. I mean, lester was really good because the standard was the standard and you came in from a very different environment and we do.
Speaker 1:Leicester did things how they did, they did what they did and you had to conform to that. That wasn't a bad thing, it was just different, not better or worse, just different. If you wanted to be part of that Leicester team, as you were and successful, you had to conform in a certain way. You can, you know you're a real popular member of the group because you're a bit, you know, you're a bit strange at times and you play the guitar and everyone's going who's this, who's this? Weirdo. But it worked, didn't it? Because actually, the the really important things were the things that training on the pitch, what were you going to give? What was your commitment to bits around it? You could be different, like, oh, you know those three things I've just spoken about, um, there were lots of. You know there's lots of soft edges to those things around. Other things you know, um, but what you have to have a framework to start with.
Speaker 1:And anybody that thinks that, well, okay, it's day one and he's, you know, he set his stall out, but give it a few weeks, it'll start to soften. No, no, it's just day one, it's like that. You know day 1001 it'll be like that. Yes, because that's just. You know people that have you'll. I know you're smiling, I'm smiling, mate. You know, oh, you're in the wrong kit. You wait till Cocker sees you, you're going to be in trouble. And no, then Cocker sees you, you're going to be in trouble.
Speaker 2:And no, then they were in trouble.
Speaker 1:Is that the right shirt for training? Well, leave the field. When you've got the right kit, come back. And then, when he runs off to the kit shed and puts the kit on and comes back, that's just how it is and it becomes. What I found was really interesting, and it happened it started under Pat Howard. I was the assistant coach and Pat is an Auss Aussie, as you know, a very amazing bloke, amazing coach, but not great on those types of things.
Speaker 1:And it really used to upset me to for want of a better word and you go, cocker, it bothers you that much, you just sort it, it doesn't bother me, it'll be all right, we'll turn up, we'll do our thing. So it was like the red rag to the ball really. So I just you know, this is it timekeeping dress code. And for the first six months it was really hard work and everybody, including myself, thought, well, is this really worth it?
Speaker 1:And then, over time, a new player would arrive, like yourself, and the players would go right, there's the kit shed, that's what you wear for the gym, that's what we wear for rugby, do not wear anything else, because that's not how we operate. And my words and my beliefs became their beliefs and that became our culture. Yeah, and you know, I mean I'm sure we'll get on with it. I know I went to toulon and there was no dress code and everybody just does whatever they want, um, and we had some of the world's best players, but it worked for them. So, um, and you had to, you had to mold to that, because I was there for such a short period of time, because I was there just for six months, that it wasn't the, it wasn't the biggest fight, to the biggest thing to fight about, so that you have to adapt and work your way through.
Speaker 2:You didn't bring those strict standards straight away and you just sat back for that one until on. Did you take a?
Speaker 1:little bit. Well, timekeeping hard work was non-negotiable, but the kit that we had was owned by the owner and basically as long as you wore whichever brand it was at the time, and we'd have guys in beach shorts, you know singlets, and I'm just going.
Speaker 2:And the bull didn't come out because that is because I know you, mate. You are right, mate. If anyone's coached with you or played or coached with you, you're so consistent around this stuff Like it does not change.
Speaker 1:Well, it couldn't be fixed because they didn't have the kit. So, but I mean, I'm talking about, you know, gitto, drew, mitchell, nonu, um, bastaro, girardo, uh, duane, vermulin, um, two or so, but like household names, you know, and I'm going boys, any chance, the right kit. Well, this is the kit we got and I in, eventually we got to sort of unit training and I got them rugby shorts and a rugby shirt and they all looked at me and went is it? Are we playing a game? A lot? What's the? You know we're actually going to do contact. Oh, okay, what today? Yeah, yeah, today, and the boys did it because there's some wonderful players there. Um, I, slowly, I sort of you know, our beliefs merged of hard work, like we want to be prepared for the game, but that, knowing that the group as well as I could, in such a short period of time, that that we long as we work hard, okay is, is the? Is the fight for the dress code worth the fight? Probably not. But then, when you know, I then went to Edinburgh and you stall out again, you go back to, you know, and it's a different group. Those core values were very key. So it started again. So it was, I mean, one of the most.
Speaker 1:When I first I went in January. Mike Ford left as head coach because the merry-go-round of French rugby, you know how it is. So the first thing I did was meet with the senior players, which is hard because there's a lot of senior players, there's a lot of egos in that changing room and Drew Mitchell, who's a great player, he was part of the team and whatever kit we wore for away games, he always wore the opposite. If we wore black, he wore grey. We wore grey, he wore black. And it was just Drew. So one of the first things, we sat with the senior players. Well, how do we want to play? How do you want to go about your business?
Speaker 1:We were in a place where we were struggling a bit and I said, drew, where we were struggling a bit, and I said, drew, you're in charge of dress code for away games because you always wear the opposite and you always moan that it's not the thing that you want to wear. So I'll tell you what you decide, then everybody will be in the right kit and it worked. And it worked. So you decided and everybody else didn't care, only Drew cared. So it was just like well, fine, you know you do that. And it was just at that point in time, with that group, for that short period of time, I had to adjust my thinking because there were more important things to worry about and I couldn't. It was impossible to change that for all sorts of reasons. And you know, in France c'est très compliqué, in France it's very complicated, in France it's difficult.
Speaker 2:Well mate that's not a delegation, is it? That's a masterclass in coaching right there, pick the right person and put them on.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, I mean, for me it's just common sense, mate, but you know. And then the boys that really care, the Vermoulins and the Nonos and the Gittos. How do you want to play, boys? How do you want to play? How do you want to? How do you want to? What do you want to wear, mate? I want to wear this, no problem, just tell us you. You, just you find a way, don't you? That's the thing, you find a way to get the best out of the group. And that's part of you know, from leaving Leicester to get to Toulon was for that short period of time. Was that an amazing experience for you?
Speaker 2:Because you'd had an absolute truckload of time with Leicester. I think it was 24 years in total, over 500 games for Leicester as a player and a coach. But what you talked about with Leicester's culture, I always remember some of the stuff that was just done, like you said, that timekeeping, the kit was so ingrained that I come in and it's just done. Things also like I couldn't get over. The culture at Leicester was big weights on Monday, like I'd always come from New Zealand culture where it was just like recovery, like rinse weight, and then it was big weights on Monday and you ran very tough line out and mauling and scrum sessions on that first day and I think they were tougher than game days and that was just the culture.
Speaker 2:But having been in there for a long time, what, what, what you learn when you had to get out of it as a coach and go right. Well, firstly, how has that affected you, your coaching to be in that you know for a time you're well entrenched with everything. And then how was the adjustment when you had to move and go somewhere which didn't have such a yeah, I think the biggest challenge for any head coach or coach full stop moving is played at Leicester.
Speaker 1:When I took over as forwards coach or academy coach to forwards coach to head coach, I knew every player. So they knew me, they knew the culture, I knew the culture. So, although Leicester was a really tough place to coach because you had to win every week and the expectations were huge imagine leaving there and having no other experience of coaching you go. You get an offer from Toulon for six months. Galtier's coming in in the season. They need a bit of help. So you go and you know I got sacked at Leicester. You know we can all beat around the bush around how things are. They sacked me because they thought it wasn't working.
Speaker 2:Any reason, kogos, just while you're on there, was there any?
Speaker 1:I think, well, we were fourth and we we weren't going as well as we would have liked to. You know, I did eight years, won the comp three times, you know, three of the four of the finals, or three of the finals, and the rest were semis. So with Semmers, so that was deemed as failure. Tough environment, well, and that's. And look, I had eight years as head coach. I loved every minute of it. And you know, I've sat with lots of players this is how I see it as a to rationalize everything. I've sat with lots of players and said, look, you've done a great job, thanks for your time. We're not keeping you and that's hard when people get upset. And so when it's my turn, cocker, we want to move on. It's time to go in a different direction. We want to do something different. You go, you shake the hand, you say thanks very much. You can be upset and, trust me, it took a little bit of time to get over that. Um, but that's the game, isn't it? You know that is how it is. You know, you know one of the as a very young child. You know well my parents mate, life's not fair sometimes. Sometimes it's just not fair, and sometimes coaching. It's just not fair, but you have to crack on.
Speaker 1:But back to my point is you know, five, six, seven days later I'm from Leicester to Toulon. Now I've got a coach, a team who I don't know anybody, they don't know me, you don't know the group, whereas I come from Leicester, wherever he knows me. Well, cocker will be all right because we know him. But now you walk into the team room and the front row is, you know it's a, it's a rockstar gallery of players. You know that, know the game inside out, and so you've got to make sure that how you present yourself, how we're going outside and we're going to do whatever activity you know scrum, line out, defense, whatever it may be you need to be on it, don't you? Cause they know yeah, and so then you've got to like then you right. So the first thing is well, I'm going to show these blokes I can coach.
Speaker 1:Is that the first. Thing.
Speaker 2:Is that your first impression is like the on the grass is the most important for you. I've got to show prove to these guys, yeah, well, most important for you. I've got to show prove to these guys, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, we've all been coached by guys that aren't great. Coaches Can be wonderful men, but they're not great coaches. And you know, within five minutes, don't you? So, yes, you know, we, it was a middle of a season, so there's always, there's always. You know there ways, you know there's hard to set out new standards. But, right, let's get on the field, let's coach them, let's start to build relationships around playing and getting them to play better on saturday, because ultimately, everybody gets judged. What happens on saturday, don't they? Yeah, we can talk about culture, and you know that was a great presentation and I really enjoyed that session, but ultimately, what's the transfer to the pitch? And and that's the key, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you said just then, you build relationships around playing. Is that where you took them? So that's where you make your connections.
Speaker 1:It is for me, it's not for everybody. You know it's great to be friendly with the players and get to them away from the field. You know families and all the things players and get to them away from the field. You know families and all the things that are important to them. But most players want to be coached to get better like they. Like coaches that make them better, don't they? Yeah and if you coach your team well and players think you're a good coach. For me, that's really important.
Speaker 1:I agree and respect you as a coach, but also and we'll get on to George I've learnt things here and I think that gives you respect as a person at the same time. But it's multi-layered, isn't it? Off the field, on the field, how you talk and behave on the field to how you talk and behave off the field can be very different. They don't have to be the same, do they.
Speaker 2:No, and how does that change for you?
Speaker 1:I used to be horrible all the time to everybody on the field. I think when I was a young coach or less experienced coach, it was game face all the time in meeting off the field, on the field, because I wanted it to work. So I was just in that headspace the whole time. The more experience you become as a coach, the more you learn as a coach, the more comfortable you deal with the pressure and the things that come with it. Because it's natural and to the point where I'm today, where off the field I'm, I'm, uh, relatively react, relaxed in most scenarios, but I'm still a real hard task master on the field, because I think that's that's me, that's my, that's my point of difference um, in the fact that and I surround myself with coaches that are a bit more holistic and a little bit more caring for want of a better word because I'll I'm going to you know, I'll say to them in a meeting before training well, I'm going to poke these few boys today, and afterwards I want you to then go and catch up with them and go look.
Speaker 1:You know the point he's making. He needs this from you, okay. Go look. You know the point he's making. He needs this from you, okay. So so, um, I think, probably, yeah, I think choosing your behavior over and you know I've been banned from the touchline for lots of weeks as a coach um, over my time, choosing your behavior to the scenario rather than letting your emotions take control of that has been a real improvement for me really, because there's times, even now, where I really want to go on the pitch and talk to the referee and say really bad things, but I don't because it's just not worth it.
Speaker 2:So that's a joy. That's what $10,000 fines do, don't? They's just not worth it. So that's a joke, that's a joke ten thousand dollar fines do, don't know they really do.
Speaker 1:They make you nine week bans from the changing rooms. Um, I think you, I think you were there when I got banned the first time well, I had to step in.
Speaker 2:That was I was a brand new coach and I got thrust into like the halftime speeches and everything day one, because you've been banned for helping someone?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 2:Well, cockus, I've got a question on this because I think it's a really good point. You said, and I agree with this, you're a hard taskmaster on the field and you're good at that identity, and I guess it's important to ask because I reckon you would be, you're very unique, in your style. I think there's not many coaches which are so consistently that these days as you Do. You reckon you need an identity as a coach, because we talk about it as a team, like team. How do they play? What are they? What are they about? And when I think about you as a coach and anyone that is coached by you knows you're, you're, you are that. Do you think that's important? Whatever, whatever um identity you are, do you think it's important? Coach has something to hang the hat. I am you know, this is the way I am rather than I'm a little bit of everything and no one could really define what I am.
Speaker 1:Well, definitely, I think. I think it's important and it's I'll sort. Well, you know we chatted earlier like coaching courses and all that sort of stuff, which we've all done, okay, and they're valuable to a point. You've been a head coach, haven't you? So you understand. You know, I love talking to people and getting advice and listening to their experiences of people that have done the same job as me. The pressures, the winning, the losing, worried about losing your job, all the things upsetting players, recruitment, all that stuff, and I love sharing those experiences with people that have done it. I find it hard sometimes to be told by a consultant how I should behave or how I should run something when they've never done it. They might have researched it in a book or done a degree and all that stuff. I'm not devaluing it, but at the sharp end, man, it's tough, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you've got some examples. What's been some of your toughest um, our 2011 world cup.
Speaker 1:We at leicester, we were one, one from eight and we were 14 guys missing and everybody was calling for my head and I'd been in the job for three years. So it's like, yeah, like I could get sacked. You know you go into a game and you're going. If we don't win today, I could get sacked and there's lots of things around it. You know we've got 14 guys at the World Cup. You know we're playing in a difficult time no one cares about the context because you've got to win, because you're coaching Leicester, and so you can only share that experience with people that have done it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and what do you grab onto on that? What do you grab onto to keep yourself? Because you start going in a loop right and you just get narrow and just can't get out of it. How did you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, good coaches around me I had Matt O'Connor, jordy Murphy. There were some really good people that you know, good men, good coaches, good players that could help. But just believing in what you believe in, right, okay, if we keep working hard, it will turn. But just believing in what you believe in, right, okay, if we keep working hard, it will turn. And you'll have heard me say a lot of time you know I'm a realist, you know I'm a pragmatist.
Speaker 2:I've actually got that written down as a quote to talk to you about.
Speaker 1:Well, the reality was at that point in time, with 14 players missing, we weren't a good enough team to win those games. And you have to keep managing that up the chain. Try and keep a level playing field with the group you have. And no wonder, when the 14 blokes came back, we were second bottom and we finished the league second top and we scored. You know we won eight games on the bounce with a bonus point, so you have to try. You know we won eight games on the bounce with a bonus point, so you have to try.
Speaker 1:You know there's all your mind's always playing, but you can the learning from that around people, you work with the players. You coach yourself how you react, because people's behavior changes when you're under pressure, doesn't it? It does. That's the facts. Whenever the, the easiest team to coach is a team that's winning because, well, it's cool, isn't it? Monday's cool, we're all great, it's all positive. You lose one, you lose two, you lose five, you lose seven, you lose eight. Okay, right, and that's, and that's that. That's the. That's the trick of it. And then you've got to go right, I've got to grab this by the horns and I've got to show my personality, show my strength of personality to lead the boys through this.
Speaker 2:Do you double down on that taskmaster identity?
Speaker 1:Yes and no Like right, let's get our detail right. Let's make sure we're working hard enough, but not too much. Let's make sure this is about the team and not about my frustration, because you know we've all been well. You're a lot nicer bloke than me, but sometimes we train really hard because I'm frustrated. I'm so cheesed off that we played like that on Saturday right Monday. These boys are getting it.
Speaker 2:Mate. I've been on the receiving end of that a few times. Oh gee, not looking. Maybe it's a too sore elbow on Monday. Maybe this concussion might last another couple of days.
Speaker 1:And the thing, then it really shows what you're about as a person and a coach, and over time you get better at that, don't you?
Speaker 2:You do and did you have any like? I've been through a couple of those stressful times too, and what I was trying to do was not let it stay with me for too long and come up with some specific things around, not letting it impact my fathering duties and things like that. Does that flow on to the outside of rugby? Spare for you.
Speaker 1:Oh, without doubt, If you're a head coach, it's a lifestyle, not a job, isn't it? If you win, your kids and your wife have a great weekend. If you lose, everybody's miserable. Well, you know. But you know what I mean, Cause it does affect it's human nature, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, because in the, in the modern game, the pressure you have to win, like and I and I've said this to many supporters that have advised me how I should pick the team, how I should pick the team sometimes Come to the game, sit in your seat. If you win, you keep your job. If you lose, you lose your job. Now, how does your thinking change? So you've got to pick those three young kids that might play well but might not. Or you've got to pick the experienced boys that you know they're going to deliver a certain level of performance and win the game for you. There you go, and it's a bit extreme, but there's actually a huge modicum of truth in that, isn't there?
Speaker 2:How does that there is? Does it affect your confidence as a coach In yourself or your self-esteem confidence? That side of things Do you sort of doubt yourself?
Speaker 1:I think all coaches doubt themselves a little bit, you know, because I think that keeps you on edge and keeps you hungry to make sure you keep driving those standards. Does it affect your confidence? Well, yeah, I think it has to. But I sort of then think to myself right, okay, how am I going to sort this? Right, I'm a good coach, I know what works. Right, I'm going in Monday. Right, this is the plan, boys, this is the plan, this is what we're doing. Let's crack on, because people want to be led, don't they?
Speaker 1:yeah, very true you walk in the meeting room and they, they don't know, do they? Because players don't know? We were players. We didn't know how to run a team, we didn't know how to set the week up, we didn't know. Oh, how are we going to solve this? Because it wasn't our problem, was it? Well, but it's true, isn't it? Oh, listen, so I, we, have to stand up as head coaches and go right, this isn't good enough. Yeah, I love that from saturday. Look at this. This is a great example. Look at like. If we play like this, you know no wonder we got what we deserved on Saturday because we lost. This is what we deserved. This is how we, in the key moments, this is how we fronted up or didn't front up, and right, this is what we're doing to put it right and let's get out on the field and let's sort it, like there's nothing better than having a good couple of days training after you've had a bad loss, because you're I'd call it cleansing your soul.
Speaker 2:I love that reframing of the shit session when you're cleansing your soul. I can tell you, cockers, that is definitely not what the players thought of some of those Monday morning sessions for sure.
Speaker 1:I know, but when they were champions at the end of the season.
Speaker 2:Correct and to be fair, I must admit, looking back to those Leicester times, at times I remember standing out in the cold doing some just shit-ass sessions and just thinking what is the point of this? But it's funny how, with hindsight and time and because of that success, I actually look back to that and sort of chuckle and smile and go that was actually really memorable, Really memorable, that stuff.
Speaker 1:Well, it was the way that Leicester built their success at that point in time.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And it was when I played there and I think it created some very, very good players, especially in the forward pack, and we had some wonderful players in the back line, but no one liked playing against that group of players, did they?
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:Because they were players and we were confident as a team and you were confident as players because you knew you'd done the work.
Speaker 2:No one had worked harder than you and I think we were all. The beauty of that time period was everyone knew what we were doing Like. It was very clear there was no grey zones in our game plan. It was a simple game plan but because it was drilled so hard it actually you're right it gave us a lot of confidence. That right, we know what we're doing. Like you didn't even need a captain's run because it was yeah.
Speaker 1:And I really believe if you work really hard, good things happen. There's an exact correlation to that. With hard work, you know, if you've prepared really well, you've worked hard, you're fit, you've done everything, you go into the game with confidence and belief, because there's no guarantees. It just gives you best chance to win, doesn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree, mate. Hey now, mate, you mentioned a couple of references there about your own style and I have a quote here from you that you said you prefer talking to people face-to-face. They're a little bit more scared of me face-to-face. Now I'd like to just dive into that a little bit, mate, because there's no secret about your style. You do have a reputation for having a fiery nature. It's not just a reputation, you've got that to you and, as you said, it's part of your identity as a coach and it's important to have an identity. Now I'm really intrigued to have an identity. Now, I'm really intrigued.
Speaker 2:Do you need to like? How deliberate is it from like now and how much do you have to sort of? Are you trying to pull that back? Because you know it's a fiery nature can be an amazing thing, but it can also be the other extreme where it can go off rails. What's your experience around that sort of dynamic with? Because you're sitting on a nuclear bomb which could do wonders and it could do the opposite. Yeah, how do you juggle that?
Speaker 1:I'm a lot more thoughtful before I choose to behave like that with anybody Previously, probably out of my own insecurity. Right, there's an issue, there's a problem. Right, I'm gonna go and confront it head on because I'm in charge and they need to know I'm in charge and I'm gonna show them. I'm in charge, um, so there's a problem. You come here, you have the, you know the discussion face to face, and you, you be brutally honest, which everybody says they want to. Brutal honesty until they get brutal honesty because it didn't. Yeah, they don't really, it's true. It's true, but you're honest with me, so you are. And you go oh, he's just completely rinsed me.
Speaker 1:But I like face to face conversations, because, which I call an adult conversation or the. You know, the inconvenient reality of it isn't. It is that if I want to speak to you about selection, I don't just announce the team and let you steward that you've not been picked. Then it can have a word. You're not in the team. This is the steward that you've not been picked. Then it can have a word. You're not in the team. This is the reasons why this is what I need from you. You go, yeah, well, I don't really like that, like I don't really disagree with it. Well, that's fine, have a think about it.
Speaker 1:You know, when my officers come and speak to me, and if they don't the with someone, I will go and speak to them. Or I want to feed something back, I go and have the conversation face-to-face because that's just for me, the right way to do things. That's just how I approach my management style, and some people find it refreshing because lots of coaches will just announce a team or do something and never speak to them. They'll get off the pitch as quickly as possible after training so they don't have to talk to a player. No problem, because ultimately I make the decision if they're in the team. So conversation and things like I'll give you examples of and you've managed to, you know, I get a. I get a physio report.
Speaker 1:Ben Herring's not playing, not training, today because, uh, got a sore knee. Okay, no stress. So I see Ben Herring and go, mate, how's your knee? Oh man, I'm fine. I could have like I don't know what the physio talk about I could have trained like I wanted to train and I'll go. Well, hang on. The physios tell me no, no, no, I disagree with it. So I'll just go right. I'll take Ben Herring to the physio. We'll have a three way conversation. Look, ben says he's fit. You tell me he's not fit. So which one of you are here and the player goes oh well, I did see him and it was oh well, and it's a really awkward conversation. But I'll tell you what that player the member of staff never, never, never gets confused about the information. Ever again. Because they know that if they're going to tell pork is to me, I'll just bring them all together and sit in the same room and go right, which one of you is lying to me?
Speaker 2:So I'll say no, matt, and you do do that it's really it.
Speaker 1:I tell you what. It's really awkward, but I tell you what. There is no ambiguity the next time. And is that my fault? Well, maybe it is, but I tell you what. We know the rules. There are no gray areas, there are no cracks. This is how it works, boys, and I don't mind that confrontation because it creates an environment where no one there's. No one is, um, putting the fingers in the cracks to make it wider between the staff or the players or whoever.
Speaker 1:I'll just go straight to the point go well, what's going on, talk to me about it and I look after my players and my staff. If you have a real issue in your life, I will make sure that I look after you, because that's when push comes to shove. I will do anything for a player or a member of staff that is working with me, because that's, for me, the true reflection of a decent person. Don't give me the trivial stuff. Oh, you know the pitch was a bit muddy, or I didn't enjoy the pasta at lunch today, or whatever players moan about, because they do. Don't give me the trivial stuff. Oh, you know, the pitch was a bit muddy, or I didn't enjoy the pastor at lunch today, or whatever players moan about, cause they do, don't they, you know? But you want to be with a proper problem, mate, okay, right, how are we going to sort this? Right, that's whatever this, you know, can be. Family can be anything. Right, come back when you're ready, because that's that's the most important thing, isn't it?
Speaker 2:yeah, and I, yeah, I mean getting back, yeah, I I can be really harsh, but, um, you've got examples of that, mate, because I do agree with you, like where you're very good at is that confrontation and delivering it, and as long as the person I remember you giving me those conversations and I really enjoyed it before non-selection, before the team was read out publicly, you were always you're not playing. This is why and I think that statement you said no one's if you do that, then you don't get anyone putting the fingers in the cracks to make things wider and I think that's a big coaching point because if, if you're not direct sometimes not like hitting things smack in the face with that those cracks can just keep opening and then you'll start losing a team, correct?
Speaker 1:Well, you need to be understanding to your playing group 100%, but they always need to know who's in charge.
Speaker 2:When has that sentiment got you? Have you got an?
Speaker 1:example, where you probably haven't nailed it and you've gone too far and you've missed the mark on a confrontational type exercise. Um, there's probably some times where, in team meetings on review, I've probably been too harsh on individuals in front of the group, um, which I try to avoid point without using the, the tone or the body language or the the person, the personal insults, if that's the the right word, I suppose. Um, because, whether you like it or not, that you know we've got children. I've got kids that are late teens, early 20s. You know that the society's changed, isn't it? It's not, yeah, yeah, it's. It's very different and it affects people in different ways. Um, how I learned and how I was brought up is is very different, is very different. So I think in those scenarios you can still make the point and still make it very succinct and powerful, without being the shouter and the pointer which I would have been 100% do you think that's been a big evolution of your coaching from that style to is it soft?
Speaker 2:is it had to soften with the, the way the new generation of athletes coming through what they actually need to respond to?
Speaker 1:definitely and and you know, and probably rightly so, you know it's, it's and actually coaching it's actually. When you're coaching it's actually a lot nicer environment when you, the coach, as the coach, you're a bit nicer to people. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:it sure does you get a back in spades, yeah well, there's times when you have to be, you know, in the middle of a forward session. If we're not barring up, like of a forward session, if we're not barring up, like you know, you say things that you wouldn't say in the office, because that's the field, you know. That's, that's the challenge to the players, because when they get on the field it's going to be tough, isn't it?
Speaker 2:you know, yeah, it's the game, there has to always be a degree of brutality and combat and confronting, because that is the nature of the game, but it's not necessarily the nature of people these days in general, outside of that. So there is a balance.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely Away from the field. I am so different to the person that was 38 taking over as head coach at Leicester.
Speaker 2:Oh, what would you say is the biggest difference from that guy?
Speaker 1:Off the field, treat the person as the person and not the player. If that makes sense, it does so. So I can have some real issues with a player about his performance, for example, but when I go off the field, that person is a person, that is just a person. And I can go off the field, that person is a person, that it's just a person. And I can't take the field mentality to the canteen or to the team room or to the gym.
Speaker 2:And that's, and that's been a big progression for you, like initially you held it and then it was all the same.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Well, that was just. Yeah, that's just how it was. It wasn't. I wasn't trying to be that person. Yeah, it's how I dealt with what did what?
Speaker 2:how did you? What was the reflection moment on that? What was the bit which went? I need to probably be a bit more aware of that. Was there anything that stood out as the point where you went?
Speaker 1:yeah, I'm going to change that aspect of myself um, oh you, you get feedback from players all the time and do you know what? It's horrible getting horrible feedback. Good coach actually cares about the team, actually wants to win, has made us better, but away from the field she usually needs to chill out because he's like that the whole time.
Speaker 2:So okay, and how do you receive that feedback? Is that through you do it as a regular thing at the end of the season, or what is that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, chatting to players, chatting to staff, staff can feel the same as well, like, mate, we know that you really care, but, geez, you've just got to stop being such an idiot. Sometimes, okay, and people don't think this of me, okay, but the one thing, uh, I've always done is always taking responsibility to myself first. So you say something, that cocky mate, that's out of order. How you spoke to him today was out of order. I won't go. No, no, hang on. No, no, it's not, no, it's not. And just I'll go. Okay, all right, thanks, and I'll go away and actually think about it.
Speaker 1:You know, these days we'd call it self-reflection or something. You know there'd be a fancy word for it, wouldn't there? But, okay, am I wrong here actually? Yeah, right, I'm going to. I'm wrong. I've got no stress with that, because, although I have this reputation of being a hard taskmaster and sometimes unreasonable, come and speak to me. Actually, I don't appreciate when you speak to me like, actually, I don't appreciate that when you speak to me like that, yeah, or staff, now there's, like you know, in the, the moments of stress. You know you've been assistant coach to me. I might go, benny, what the are you doing there?
Speaker 2:like, just do your effing job down the microphone on game day cockers. I can't hear in this ear after two seasons with you.
Speaker 1:And then, but an hour later I'll go. Benny, I'm really sorry how I spoke to you this morning, mate. I was out of order, you do, because and that doesn't make it right in the first place but there has to be some understanding in those pressurized situations, doesn't there? That's just my opinion. Those pressurized situations isn't there, that's just my opinion. So, and look, I've got lots and lots of contacts and friends in the game. You know me and you are still on Zoom. You know, 15 years later, we're still smiling because ultimately, we're all trying to do the same thing and get the same, getting the job done, aren't we?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and mate, I think with you particularly, mate, what I always enjoy is you've touched on it is your level of care is always there and I think this is a big thing that I'm learning about by chatting to a lot of great coaches is that's the consistent bit People that are international coaches, such as yourself. There is that underlying level of deep care they have for the people in their team and everyone has their own different way of doing it and it may or may not always come across, but the best coaches, the players know there is that care there and I think that's the really special. And you're certainly that, mate, in all environments. I always knew you care. Um, I didn't always appreciate my eardrum popping out on game days, but I always knew it was there.
Speaker 2:I do have a personal question on that Cock because just around myself and yourself, you asked me to be. I was a player, retired, got knocked out and you asked me to be assistant coach and just do like contact skills and things like that, and what I was always intrigued at was because I never thought of coaching. I had no interest and I wouldn't have done it had you not have asked. I would have gone, as you probably would have expected, in a combi van around America, smoked a lot of weed and just enjoyed myself, but you gave me an opportunity to say mate, here's a role here, do you want it or not? And it took a few weeks to just go. Actually, I don't know. I've never thought about this, but I wanted to know what you look for in coaches, and particularly me who wasn't a coach. What did you see? And was it a yin and yang type thing? But what do you look for in your assistant coaches and how do you? What triggers are you trying to find in being an experienced coach yourself? What do you think?
Speaker 1:that… Good people, people that I like, I know people. Lots of people say, well, you don't have to like the people you work with because it's about performance, but I think coaching groups have to like each other. I think it's important Good personalities and not always the same. If everybody was like me, the world would be a terrible place, wouldn't it?
Speaker 2:Would it work If you had a, if you had three more years assistant coach?
Speaker 1:what sort of game plan would we play if the backs coach was you? Yeah, we wouldn't be the backs and it wouldn't work if we were all like you, because it would be chaos, wouldn't? It wouldn't work. Um, so I think people that know the game like you, knew that. You knew your game, didn't you like break down contact area like it was your thing? You know you, you were very good tackler, jackler, all those types of things that were good.
Speaker 1:And I'm going well, actually, I've got a guy that's got a good personality, he's popular, knows the game.
Speaker 1:Actually, I reckon he could impart his knowledge to the group really well in a very different way to me, because I can remember you going, watching you in the gym with the boys doing after weights, doing contact drills, and I'm just going, I have no idea what he's doing here, but the boys loved it and it was engaging and it made us better. So that you know, when you're a young coach, you've got all that energy and ideas and it's all a bit, you know, it's all a bit cool and and and funky, um, the same when. But as you get older, you know you sort of grow out of it, don't you? Then too, and I think that's, yeah, I think so, I think so definitely, um, that's cool and everybody, yeah, oh, energy, enthusiasm, boys like it. It's different, like all those things are because you know, as you, as you, as you, because as you get more responsibility, that those opportunities to coach, like that, change, don't they? Because you got not more important things to do, but just different things to do up the chain.
Speaker 2:Yeah, now I guess, talking about up the chain, mate, you're currently the Georgian head coach. Yes, and I'll just shift real sideways from that little interlude about myself and mate, how's that gone in terms of? How have you rocked into that new environment? And there's a quote from you which said that you believe your mindset and skill set suit the georgians. Can you elaborate? What is that? Just what? What? What did what made that happen? That that statement, and do you still stand by it being there for a bit now?
Speaker 1:I think they're really straightforward people.
Speaker 2:They can take a smack in the mouth. Piece of information.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, I think they've been killed by my kindness. So far, what? Yes, no, I mean we've had some good robust. Is that the right word? Robust is the right word these days, isn't it? They're angry Robust review sessions around certain games. Look, it's real hard workers. You know, they bat way above the resource and the number of players that they have.
Speaker 2:What about from a cultural piece, maylor? Because I wouldn't know where to start, bar some of the ancient history. How's that rocking into that? It'd be very different to Leicester, to Toulon, to Edinburgh it's been a great learning experience.
Speaker 1:Georgians do not care what you've done. You could have coached the world 15 or won the world cup 20 times. They need to know that you're a good bloke and you've got to work hard and you've got to respect them and you've got to work with them. If you can't give them that, you're done. So it was a very, very quick. Learning for me is that they don't care what you've got to tell them about rugby. Are you going to look after them? Are you going to treat them with respect? Around how you speak to them, there's some swear words that you could never use because it would just look just to warn you do not say this, this or this ever, because it would just not just not acceptable. So you go, okay, cool, and so they need. The first thing you learn is that you've got to earn their respect as a bloke, as a human being. If you do that, and then they'll listen to you about rugby.
Speaker 2:Does that differ from earlier, when you built relationships around playing Is this time around? Have you had to modify that stance?
Speaker 1:Well, you have to go and find out about people, whether they're the best player or a really untalented player, which we all have in teams. You have to treat them all the same, which you should probably anyway, but human nature dictates that. You know you like. You like the good blokes better than the ones that aren't so good. You know that's um so, but it's been, it's been. Uh, that part is just so different because you go anywhere else in the world generally, from my experience, is that right, is that? How are you going to make me a better player? Give me some gold? How are you going to help me be a better player? Well, they want that, but actually, firstly, they want you to. Okay, georgia's a tiny country. They are loyal. The love they have for each other when they come in to train, I've never seen it like any other team. Yeah, georgians love each other. Their loyalty for each other is unbelievable, as tight as I've ever seen.
Speaker 2:Really.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I didn't know. I mean, you know I had to. You know when they first got in touch with me. You know it's the first thing I'm going to do Google Georgia and see where it actually was. You know how far from Russia it was then. You know.
Speaker 2:Tbilisi is a place where, like Jason and the Argonauts were, weren't they, the Golden Fleece? Isn't that from? You know more than me, mate Google? That's a great theming thing.
Speaker 1:The Golden Fleece was buried somewhere in tbilisi, I'm pretty sure well, I'll go and find, find it this afternoon, but like so and then look, the rub is no, they're very proud country, like it has a huge history, um, obviously with the soviet union, but you know, thousands of years before that it's. You know, it's a country that's always been invaded and never invaded anybody else. So we're a country that's tight, we're used to defending ourselves and I think that you see that in how we, how we play and their mentality. Um, I mean, they will fight for the georgian shirt. You know, you've seen it, you know they will tackle and they will fight and they will never go away, which is a great starting point for someone like me, because actually that's normally the thing you have to start with instilling a bit of a bit, of a bit of grit.
Speaker 1:Um, so, um, it's um, and they, they love their rugby. Um, they love their food and their wine. And you know, first thing, that someone said to me when I first arrived georgians love to eat and, geez, do they love to eat? Great food, great wine, very hospitable. Um, the city is an amazing place. This country is an amazing place. You know, you can be in the sunshine here now and two hours you can be skiing, or you can be at the black sea or you know um. So there's, and I think, as a coach and as you get older, you know I was very, you know it's just rugby, but there's part of your life where that life-work balance is good to see. You know Rugby's given me those experiences. You know Leicester played in Clermont. You know Toulon, edinburgh, montpellier, now here there's some of those. You know. It's that part of the journey, so to speak, and I don't really like using that word journey, but like, the experiences are amazing, aren't?
Speaker 2:they yeah.
Speaker 1:Like you know, take high performance and all the other things and culture and everything else. But you know, I'm going to sit with you in 20 years time having a glass of wine on your veranda, talking about my time in tiblici mate.
Speaker 2:Well, let's get in the back of the combi van. When we're touring the states and finishing all that trip off, I reckon you can come meet down floor.
Speaker 1:Normal kiwi can sit in your garage with a crate of beer, no problem I love it, mate.
Speaker 2:Hey, when you mentioned clemont there, I just remembered when we went to clemont and you took us on uh, the coaches on, like your coffee haunts at about 10 o'clock at night having espresso coffee, and I never I didn't sleep all night just because they were so strong, and so that is a memory that I'll always remember of you, mate hey look, hey look.
Speaker 2:Welcome, mate. When I think about what you talked about, georgian, the grit, the loyalty, the love for each other and the love of not minding a fight, I couldn't think of a better place for you for sure. Thank you, hey, mate. I'd like to finish up with the last question which I have been asking people, because I think it's a really intriguing one, and it's something that you believe about cultural leadership or anything on rugby that you reckon potentially your peers and contemporaries would potentially not agree with. That that you may have. Is there anything which fits that boat for you?
Speaker 1:um, crikey, that is a tough question. Look, I think everybody has their style, um, and I think I think it's important that um, everybody believes in something around their coaching. Some people will really dislike how I have discipline and how hard we work, and I always had this saying at Leicester I'd rather do one more than one less. And I've heard people criticize that. And what I mean is it's not about being mindless and stupid around, how hard you train, it's that. Who would you rather want in your team? Someone that does one more or someone that's happy to do one less? Just think about that. Like, I want the bloke that wants to do one more, I don't want the bloke that wants to do one less. And some people go well, that's a really bad thing to say. I say, well, okay, well, that's your opinion, isn't it Like? Coaching is opinion, isn't it so? Like, and that's don't get you know, I have beliefs on how the game should be played. Some people will like that. Some people will think I'm a dinosaur. I don't, I don't care, because I know that I'm a good coach. The teams I coach are good teams and hard to beat and I've won trophies. That's. That's you know, and I I bet I've. I've been wanting to say this.
Speaker 1:The whole sort of um interview really is that there's so many people that um and you'll have seen on coaching courses, right, this is how you should do it and this is how you should do stuff. And, uh, this is how you should manage a team and this is how you should behave, and then the next week they go. But it's really important that you're authentic to yourself. I'm just going wow, I'm now really confused. How can you be authentic and then someone else tell you how to coach? I don't know. There's a, there's a balance of learning and all that sort of stuff, but ultimately you've got to be yourself, haven't you? And I've gone full circle. You know, like I've reinvented myself three times and I'm still going back to the point where actually 80 of what I did at the start was right and there's 20 where you can just adjust yourself and and and learn, and. But actually you got to be yourself, because you can't pretend to be a good version of someone else, can you?
Speaker 1:no so I don't know whether I've answered your question. I've actually wafted on a bit there.
Speaker 2:I've probably said what I wanted to say, not what you wanted to hear no, mate, this is what I took out of that that just the phrase coaching is an opinion, and I haven't heard that said before. But when you say it like that it is it's just someone's opinion and like as the, as the head coach, it's just your opinion, but then you're the one responsible for, you know, selling that opinion to everyone else and bringing people on board with that opinion and how you do that is ultimately you, and I think that's really, really interesting. And just in light of your coaching course reference, I always remember I feel a little bit embarrassed telling you this one. But when I was a young coach, we were on this week-long camp and they said right, we want you to play around with your style, so don't just coach the way you want to coach, coach in a completely opposite way. And I said to myself oh, this is an interesting thing. So I actually took you in mind and said I'm going to coach like cockers, I'm going to get fired up and I'm going to just go around like a bull with a red rag.
Speaker 2:And so I did that and I didn't enjoy it at all. But then, um, and then I got critiqued on it. Afterwards the instructor said hey, mate, I've got a few things to say about your style that's. You know you can't be doing that, and I was like what are you talking about? I thought we're trying new styles and they said, yeah, not that one though, and I laughed you can do it all, but just don't do that one, mate.
Speaker 2:I did love it, though, mate, and we'll leave it here. Mate, I want to thank you for your time today and I want to thank you in general, mate, because, yeah, you were there at the start for me of my coaching journey, and often the person you start with actually lays a lot of big seeds for you, and you certainly have, mate, and you gave me the opportunity, took me under your wing, and I certainly appreciate a lot of the stuff you did for me, and I can vouch for the fact that you care immensely about your players and coaches, and you do enjoy the back and forth and you're very confrontational, but once you know that and you know the underneath, mate, it's wonderful. So what a privilege to catch up again, mate, thank you.
Speaker 1:Well, mate, thank you for inviting me. When you first sent the message, I was like we're going to talk about high performance and culture. I was like, ooh, this is making me nervous, Because I'm not really sure what that is. Is that what I do? I'm not sure. I had to have a think about it.
Speaker 2:I'm a little bit mate, even the phrasing of that word high performance. I'm sometimes like, yeah well, is rugby a high performance sport? I don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think the best message for me is get today right. If you get today right, then you'll get tomorrow right, and then that'll turn into weeks, to months, to years. I've been coaching 20 years, so I must be doing something right.
Speaker 2:Correct.
Speaker 1:Thank you, my friend Cheers, pal right Correct. Thank you, my friend Cheers pal.
Speaker 2:Here are my final three thoughts from a conversation with caucus Add a structure to your culture. Normally, when we're talking about culture, we're referring to something that's intangible, but caucus has put in a very clear, defined structure, that being be on time, wear the right kit and have good work ethic. Caucus believes that by putting it so clearly and succinctly, the whole organisation is under no doubt what it takes to live up to the cultural standards. Number two off-field Treat the person as a person, not the player. Because as coaches we're so invested in what we're coaching sometimes we forget to separate out what happens on the grass to what happens off the grass. Whatever resentments you may have about what the player's done in the game or in training needs to stay at the appropriate place. It's important not to carry any baggage that's happened on field off field.
Speaker 2:Number three coaching is an opinion. I think this is a fantastic thing for all coaches to remember. We are neither right or wrong in the way we play and do things. It's just the way we do things. Everybody has an opinion Spectators, fans, board, even players but when it's coaching, if you want to be an authentic coach, you've got to coach your way, and your way is always just an opinion, which is fantastic. Run it, love it, enjoy it. Until next time, stay well.