Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Tony Brown: Rugby Man first, Coach Second.
Tony Brown's approach to coaching is refreshingly straightforward in a world that often overcomplicates the game. "I'm a rugby man first, then a coach second," he explains, revealing how his deep love for the sport drives everything he does. This authenticity forms the cornerstone of his coaching philosophy: create systems that are "easy to learn, simple to understand, but challenging to execute."
Brown's journey spans the globe – from his native Otago and the Highlanders in New Zealand to successful stints in Japan and now as attack coach for South Africa's national team. Throughout these experiences, he's developed a counter-intuitive yet powerful approach to team building. While many coaches quickly replace players they deem inadequate, Brown takes the opposite view: "Give me the players and I'll coach them to be the best they can be, which then makes the team the best it can be." This philosophy was vindicated when he helped transform the Highlanders – considered the weakest New Zealand franchise – into Super Rugby champions in 2015.
What separates Brown from many contemporary coaches is his skepticism of forced "high performance" environments. Drawing from his remarkable personal resilience – having overcome a severe childhood hand injury and later a life-threatening pancreas rupture during his playing career – he understands that genuine culture trumps rigid performance metrics. "You can train players hard and push them hard, but it's not through high performance standards, it's through your environment and culture that gets the best out of players," Brown explains.
For coaches at any level, Brown's insights offer a masterclass in balancing technical expertise with human connection. His warning against what he calls "the coaching disease" – becoming obsessed with perfect presentations while losing touch with players – serves as a powerful reminder that coaching ultimately remains a people profession. Want to develop players who believe they can achieve the extraordinary? Start by being authentically yourself.
I'm actually probably a rugby man first and then I'm a coach second. Give me the players and I'll coach the players to be the best they can be, which is then going to make the team the best that the team can be. My philosophy that I've always lived by is it's got to be easy to learn, simple to understand but challenging to execute. When coaches are stuck on their computer and they've got all these great ideas and they're watching all these games of rugby and they're doing their presentation and they're perfecting their presentation, you look out the coach's window and he's all these players just dying. My whole rugby career this is one thing I'm super proud about is I've never, ever, had a beer during the week leading into a game of rugby.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Tony Brown. Tony is an iconic figure in world rugby, having played and coached Otago and the Highlanders in New Zealand, sanyo or Panasonic in Japan, the Sharks and Stormers in South Africa, and played for every level of all-black rugby. Currently he is the attack coach for South Africa and is widely regarded by his peers in coaching as one of the cleverest coaches in world rugby right now. It's a pleasure to have him on the show. He's a great man with some outstanding coaching knowledge here. He is outstanding coaching knowledge here. He is Great to have you here, brownie, as always. First question we like to ask is what is culture for you?
Speaker 1:What's your definition of it? Yeah, I like to keep things pretty simple, so for me it's just around getting a group of people together, get them super committed to a cause, you know, to a goal, to a purpose, and then getting them willing to sacrifice and add value really add value to a specific way of doing things. But the thing for me is the way. So for me that's the special thing. If you can get a group of people doing something a certain way, then I think that creates the culture.
Speaker 2:What?
Speaker 1:would that certain way look like for you? Brownie, I think it's aligned. It's unique to the group of people you have, um. It's unique to the different um you know different cultures you have within your team, um, and no one else can do your way. It's specific to your team or or your culture.
Speaker 2:I love that, mate. No one else can do it your way because you live down south of New Zealand, Dunedin, and it's got a very certain way. How would you explain to the audience what the way is for the southern man down south?
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, traditionally the southern man is quite a tough. I guess he's a country guy, maybe potentially a farmer, maybe a shearer, maybe a freezing worker, just someone who has just been brought up, real sort of tough backgrounds, a real sort of tough background. Doesn't really enjoy the city life too much and probably enjoys a couple of quiet beers after a game of footy.
Speaker 2:Well, mate, you're certainly the epitome of that, aren't you? Except maybe not so quiet.
Speaker 1:Beers do taste better when you're in and it's a big part of probably rugby down in the south.
Speaker 2:And how do you encapture that sort of spirit into then transpose that to a rugby team? So that sort of farming, tougher upbringing, you know, guys, that like having a couple of beers after game. How do you bring that to you know, a professional team like the Highlanders, for example, the Bears after the game. How do you bring that to you know, a professional team like the Highlanders, for example?
Speaker 1:Well, you know, like, if you go back to before, rugby was professional down here, traditionally there was a few farmers and country guys who were mixed together with, you know, students who would come down to university and you know, come down here to get a degree and then they would play a bit of footy and then they would create this unique culture and way that was, you know, otago Rugby and Highlanders Rugby, and it hasn't really changed. There's still a few local guys that sort of show, the scuffies, or the guys who come down here what the, the Southern man way is, or the Hollander way or the Otago way, and then it's their job to then buy in and commit to what it is to be, you know, a Hollander man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that phrase, the Hollander man. How did you get the buy-in, though? Like when you've got guys coming down from other parts of the country and offshore as well, and who don't know that history of what was there before, how do you get them to, you know, buy into that culture, like once they get there? Is that on the coach?
Speaker 1:yeah, I think it's always on the coach. Um, you know, and by having all these people come from all over New Zealand, come together and put them into one team is quite a tough job, but it's actually a unique way to create a team and create a culture. So you've definitely got to do it completely different to all the other franchises, all the other parts of New Zealand. You've got to be able to create a real unique way that the players will believe in and the players will buy in and commit to.
Speaker 2:And do you reckon that's just your because you were born and bred down that way? Do you reckon it's easy for you to instill that?
Speaker 1:Well, I think so. I think most of it's down down to and it's always traditionally been down to working really hard. Um, you know, like if, if you come down here, you know you've got to work harder than anyone else to to compete, um, and it's built around that. And then through hard work and through committing to to the way or to the culture, then you build the connections and you build the team and then you build the enjoyment for being a Highlander man and playing for the Highlanders.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love it, mate. Hey look, brownie, I've got a few quotes from you, from players of yours that you've coached at the Highlanders, and I thought this sort of summed up kind of cool what you were talking about. Here's a quote about you that Brownie definitely made every player a better footy player and on top of that, he wanted you to be a better version of you on and off the field. Go enjoy whatever your hobbies are, as long as when you come back to rugby, you showed up and you worked hard. Is that something which is I think it's a cool quote? Is that something which you really value is the off-field side as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think so. I think playing when I was a young kid, playing for Otago back in the early days, it was definitely what I got taught and it was definitely the way that Otago operated through the early to mid-90s and it's definitely something that taught me how to be a rugby player first, but then what I loved about the game and then how to eventually be a coach.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's cool. Now, when you're talking about coaching, brownie, if anyone that knows you knows that you have a brilliant balance, like you're what I think is one of the best technical coaches in the world. However, you've got a really awesome balance between, like, the relationship side and the technical side, which is very rare. Now what do you think about that?
Speaker 1:Is it important that coaches have that balance? When I first started playing rugby right through to today you know 40-odd years I've always just been a rugby man. First I love the game, love watching the game, love everything about the game the trainings, the people. And then, because of my love for the game and because I played for I don't even know how long I played for 18, 19 years as a professional and then continued into coaching. It's just because of my love for the game first that I became a good coach. I believe and I don't think you can you can study to be a coach, but I don't think it's genuine. You know, like being a rugby man and then being a coach. If you can combine the two, then you become a really genuine rugby coach and then the players believe and then you know, then you can have some massive impact on not only players but on teams.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, then you can have some massive impact on not only players but on teams. Yeah, mate, like and it's funny, you should say the word believe in there, brownie, because a number of the players I talked to you about you said that that was a real strength of yours, like that, you loved it and then you always made them believe they could do it it now is. Is that, just through that rugby man side of things, that belief you create?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think I can see the game easily. I can see when teams are not quite performing well and I can see why. I can see when players are struggling a little bit for form and I can see why. And I know how to influence teams and get them understanding how to win games of rugby and how to improve, and then individual players, how to improve your game. But you know, make yourself better, which is then eventually going to make the team better. And if you can get the players believing that they're going to be better and then their influence on the team's going to make the team better, then naturally your team's just going to play better rugby and they're going to believe that they can go out and beat anyone.
Speaker 1:And I think that's the art of coaching really is no matter who you get as a rugby team or who you get as a player. If you don't believe that you can make them better, make your team better, then I think you're going to lose a little bit of ability to be a massive influence as a coach. So the flip side is going well, that player's not good enough, this team's not good enough. Change all the players, change the team and then coach them. So I've never, ever, done it that way. I've always gone give me the players and I'll coach the players to be the best they can be, which is then going to make the team the best that the team can be.
Speaker 1:So there's two types of coaches, I think. I think there's the ones that go well, that player's not good enough, we'll bring someone in and we'll create a team and then we can go and win championships. Or there's the coach that goes well, we'll make all these players better and we'll make the team better, and then we can go and win championships. So I don't know which one's right or wrong.
Speaker 1:I know that sometimes my way is probably my weakness. I know a lot of coaches that coach the other way and they've won a lot more championships than I have. But I just love doing it the way that I do it, and I guess I hate to throw away a rugby player where you know that you can make him better, even though he might not be an All Black or eventually, but you know that you can make him better, that he's going to have an influence on the team and make the team better. So it's just the way I've always coached. I've never been super ruthless around just cutting players and bringing players in to create a team that's going to win a championship. It's just not what I've done.
Speaker 2:When you said that's your weakness. Why do you think that? I don't think it's your weakness, but why would you think it's potentially your weakness?
Speaker 1:Well, if you're paid to coach a team and win championships, I think there's a quick way to do it. And then there's a long way to do it. Quick way is to get the best players you can possibly get and be really ruthless around who's good enough and who's not, and then go to work around coaching the team. I'd go the long way, slow burn.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and probably the epitome of that is the Highlanders in 2015, when you won the thing with, arguably the team in the competition for New Zealand franchises. Anyway, that was regarded as the lowest on paper team and that team was super connected and tight by the end of it, wasn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was. And you know we got lucky with a few players coming down that were perceived to be not good enough by other teams. You know, Great example of coaches not thinking they're good enough, so get rid of them. Get other players in. So you know, we got guys like Richard Buckman, osaki Naholo, malakai Fiketawa.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, we, we got those guys and then we we combined them with world-class players like Aaron Smith and Ben Smith and we and we had a forward pack who was probably not rated by anyone in New Zealand or around All Black abilities being selected for the All Blacks. And then Jamie went to work on them and I went to work on the backs, and Stormy was there helping us as well, and Clark Dermody and John Preston. So we basically got all these players together and we said, well, let's make them better and make them not. We didn't necessarily say we'll make them All Blacks. We said we'll make them better so we can make our team better, that we can give ourselves a chance to win the competition and then eventually, on the back of that, all those guys made the All Blacks right.
Speaker 1:So it's you know. So it was a pretty special year and it was a pretty special group of guys because how they got the best out of each other and how the coaches got the best out of the players and the culture within the team was pretty unique and special and it created a winning team. And special and it created a winning team. And you know, if you get everything right, you can go from last in the competition to first, and I'm sure there's been plenty of examples around the world in different sports.
Speaker 2:Yeah, mate, and I think, just a testament to you. Like some of those guys that were essentially thrown away, guys like Malakai Fikitoa have gone on to have stellar careers, same with, like Buckman in Japan. So you actually make players better doing it your way here, mate. I'll just give you another quote, just because I really enjoyed it, and this is from a player in that team, that 2015 team he inspired through his innovation. Every week was made new and fun. He made you believe how important it was to clean a ruck that four phases later led to a try, made you believe you were just as important as the try scorer. Is that something you really focus on, brownie? Not just like the glory stuff, but all that hard work. Is that part of the culture of teams you coach?
Speaker 1:I think it's just everyone's got a job to do um and every, every part of the game. So when the balls, when there's when the ball's in play, one team's got the ball, so you've got a job to do. Whether you've got it or you're on defense, when the ball's in the air, everyone's still got a job to do around positioning and then being able to react off who wins the ball next. And the faster you can do that, the more you can anticipate what's going to happen next, the better rugby player you're going to be and the better team you're going to have. So I've always coached rugby around being able to execute your role. You don't have to do anything special other than execute your role, which allows the team to then play better as a team and win games at rugby. And for me, coaching is sometimes overcomplicated, whereas I just like to keep it as simple as possible.
Speaker 1:I think my philosophy that I've always lived by is it's got to be easy to learn, simple to understand, but challenging to execute.
Speaker 1:So what does that mean in a training week? If the players don't understand it or can't learn it, you're never even going to execute on the weekend. But if the players understand it and can learn it, then the challenge during your training week is to be able to execute it, which is the hard part. But that's the exciting part for a rugby player and the exciting part about a training week where you can create all these great plans around winning a game of rugby. If the players are excited and they understand it and they can learn it. You can create all these great plans around winning a game of rugby. If the players are excited and they understand that and they can learn it, then they get excited through their training week and then you've got more chance of being able to pull it off on the Saturday. And you know, and that's what I love about coaching and that's, you know, what I love about trying to be as innovative as possible and inspire the players to take up the challenge, I guess, around doing something they've never done before.
Speaker 2:Yeah, hey, Brownie, I've heard you multiple times talk about that philosophy easy to learn, simple to understand, challenging to execute. Do you think a lot of coaches generally fall down on that first step, making it hard to learn?
Speaker 1:I think that's definitely the biggest part is because if the coach understands it but he struggles to get the players to understand that, it's never, ever going to work, and then when you get to the Saturday the coach goes oh, I've coached him that all week. He should have nailed that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a classic statement, isn't it?
Speaker 1:You just presume you just presume the players know it and they understand it. And I believe there's a stage in your training week where you can go oh well, they haven't got it. And I believe there's a stage in your training week where you can go well, they haven't got it. I've got to pull it versus power on and hope they get it right. You've got to be aware enough around your coaching ability and the player's ability to go no, that's not going to work. We've got to simplify that before the Saturday.
Speaker 2:And do you make that on the run Like midweek? You go geez, I've complicated that, that's too much I've got to, and you chop it midweek.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a number of times, you know, I've had the ability to go it's not going to work, and that's where what I've talked about before. I just think I see the game and I can see if it's going to work and I can see if it's not going to work. And you know, hoping it's going to work and knowing it's going to work two different things. Um, you know, I think a lot of teams go into a game just hoping things are going to work versus knowing they're going to work, if, if we, if we understand it and we train it well and everyone's learned their role. I think that's the coaching that some people miss.
Speaker 2:Well, Brownie, because I know being away on tour with you as a coach and I know you sit in your room with eight Mount Rainier coffees the blue ones and you just watch scores and scores of rugby and get wired up on coffee. But do you make a point to take all of that knowledge that you have and understanding and try simplify it down to the layman's wording for the team, and do you actually make a conscious effort to do that, to try refine down to the simplest? Easiest way to learn Is make a conscious effort to do that, to try refine down to the simplest, easiest way to learn.
Speaker 1:Do you actually? Is that a conscious thing? You do, yeah, yeah, and um time as well, like so. Well, first thing's got to be simple. And second thing, it can't take a long time to explain or learn. Um, you know you're under massive time restraints around how much training time you've got, how much meeting time you've got, how much meeting time you've got. So if everything's a little bit too complicated and you haven't simplified it enough for the players to learn it quickly, it's never going to be successful as well.
Speaker 1:And you know, the coaching I call it the coaching disease is when coaches are stuck on their computer and they've got all these great ideas and they're watching all these games of rugby and they're doing their presentation and they're perfecting their presentation and I call it washing the car as well. So they're making sure the presentation is immaculate and they're super happy with their presentation. But you look out the coach's window and there's all these players just dying because the coach is stuck on his computer, for, you know, six hours a day and the players just want to talk to a coach around how they can be better and all that stuff. So then when you get to the team meetings and this coach has got this amazing presentation. He's already lost the players because they go.
Speaker 1:Well, coach, I'm not even talking to me, he's just doing his watching a computer, watching all the rugby, doing his presentation, and then he presents his amazing presentation that he's watched three or four times the players. You've already lost the players, you know. So I think when you go into a coaching environment and you're coaching rugby players, the rugby players are the most important, so you can't let them die in and around the environment while you're creating the best plans ever. You know connection with the players, feedback from the players around, how they're going to be better, building confidence in the players is more important than a single presentation that the coach thinks is amazing because he's been working on it for six hours. You know he presents and he goes wow, what do you reckon about that?
Speaker 2:Steven Spielberg would be happy.
Speaker 1:The players just want to get out and train, you know, and they're not too bothered. So keeping it simple and keeping it easy to understand and getting out on the training field and, I guess you know, trying to execute it, for me is what rugby's about, not the massive presentations, the super innovative things that all coaches try to do. Everything's got to be about the players first.
Speaker 2:Oh, mate, that's awesome. And I'm going to hit you with another quote, Brownie, because this sums up what you just said. This is from one of the boys in 2015. He wasn't always the greatest presenter, but he could show you clips of what he saw and made light bulbs go off in my head, which I think sums up exactly what you're talking about, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think so. When you see the game and you can see how it's going to work and how you're going to make the players understand how it's going to work, then it's easy for you to show that player and motivate that player that he can be better in all of those moments.
Speaker 2:And Brownie, do you make a conscious effort to switch off from it, because I know you do a lot of work in the background at home and your hotel room. You do that stuff. But do you make a conscious effort when I get to a certain point, like half an hour hour before or whenever I turn up to the rugby, that I now am flipping to another mode, like the connection confidence piece that you talked about?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you've always got to be in and around the players. You've always got to just be talking to the players, working with the players. It might not even be rugby, but the players have got to know that you care about, one, who they are, and, two, how they get better and how they perform or understand why they're not playing well. I think that's the most important part about coaching and you know I don't like getting stuck in rugby all the time. You know, like oh shit, I just like being competitive all the time as well. So I've got to get away from rugby and you know, play some squash or play some golf. You know, play some squash or play some golf.
Speaker 1:I think if you're in and around a competitive environment and you're not competitive yourself, it's hard to then influence the players to be competitive. So I don't be competitive at rugby because that would be embarrassing, but I try to be competitive around everything else. You know I'll take all their money when I'm playing poker against them, especially Lima Sopawanga. You know, even if, whatever it is, I'm up for a bit of competitiveness, and you know, beat them at golf or do anything that's not rugby related. Yeah, I think it's what creates a good environment as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, do you think that's authentically sort of your sort of style Brownie? I know that's a word that's bandied about that being an authentic coach, but do you think that's important for you to be you as a coach?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's the most important thing any coach can be. You know, I think as soon as you try and be someone else, or as soon as you try and coach by a coaching manual or try and coach similar to someone that you've, you know, you've looked up to for your whole life around coaching, as soon as you try and do those things that are not genuinely yourself, I think then players will naturally, you know, start to, you know, probably not believe what you're saying or believe in you as a coach anymore. And it's only little things, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what sort of things do coaches often do which are not authentic?
Speaker 1:Just sometimes you hear coaches you know present a way that you go. Well, that's not him, is it? That doesn't sound like him. And players are smart Like players are smart. They're all looking for weakness within the coaching team. They're looking for, you know, they're looking for misaligned coaches, coaches who don't get along, and that's where you know you need a real strong, powerful head coach who can keep everyone super tight and super aligned so that the players don't see any weakness within your coaching team and don't see any weakness around you as a person, around how genuine you are. There's lots of coaching manuals out there that coaches can get a hold of and coach a certain way, and there's high performance. Know, it's a high-performance environment. It's got to be like this, this, this and this. But if it's not genuinely yourself, it's never, ever going to work Well, it's not going to work as well as it would have if you had have done it your way.
Speaker 2:Love it, mate. And just then, when you talked about having a strong head coach to keep everyone aligned, what do you mean by that, mate?
Speaker 1:So I think you know the head coach. He's got to create the environment and create the team culture and he's got to create all the leadership for then the assistant coaches to then have the influence on the team so that the assistant coaches can impact and coach a certain way is dependent on how the head coach sets up the team environment and creates alignment within the coaching team, alignment in the staff and then, ultimately, alignment with the whole organisation.
Speaker 2:And just knowing you, Brownie, that's not what you enjoy. Eh, you don't enjoy that as much.
Speaker 1:No, well, well, not as much. I I understand that. I definitely understand the importance of it. Um, and it's a massive job, don't get me wrong. Um, it's like it's way, you know, it's the obviously the biggest job in the whole organisation is the head coach has got to be able to set all this up. But where I think I have the influence and I am a better rugby coach, as long as I'm influencing the players to be better, influencing the game to be better, the team to be better, how we train, how the individuals get better, for me, that's what I love doing around the coaching job. I don't necessarily love the other stuff as much.
Speaker 2:Slick media chats. You're not a big fan.
Speaker 1:You know, and the same thing is like the players will see that. So then the players will see I don't love it as much, and then they won't believe me as much, and it's all that stuff. Yeah, so for me everything around the assistant coach's job is you know, is what excites me about the game and that's where I come back to. I'm a rugby man first versus, you know, manager of people.
Speaker 2:Mate. I think it's. I love that, mate. Just that self-awareness is a big step, isn't it? To know what you are and to just be into what you are, and I think that's.
Speaker 1:I've always enjoyed how you've sort of stated that you like just being able to do the rugby side of it and all that other stuff as someone else can do that, yeah, and you know, like, no head coach can be an amazing coach without you know assistant coaches that are impacting the team and the players and the way that you play the game. And no assistant coaches can be awesome assistant coaches without a head coach that sets them up, sets the environment up for them to be successful, you know. So everything's got to go together and that's, you know. The challenge for a head coach is to get the right people and set the environment up right and then you know, then you're away.
Speaker 2:Yeah, matt, I reckon that's actually something which is not often spoken about. The head coach's role is you're actually there to help set up the assistant coaches to be their best versions of themselves, to go on. That's a big reward for a head coach in an organization, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right, and the best teams are always the ones that get it right. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Now, brownie, when I talk about you, mate, when you look back over your playing career, you played for Otago and Highlanders together about 150 games. Then you went to Sanyo and played 40-odd games for Sanyo, which is now Panasonic, and then you also had time with the Sharks and the Stormers in South Africa. And then what I think is really a fascinating journey for yourself is you've been back to all of those countries as now a coach, both coaching Otago and the Highlanders, going back to Panasonic as a coach, and now you're back in Africa. Is there something about that, mate, that you're creating cheerleaders as a coach and now you're back in Africa? There's something about that, mate, that you're creating cheerleaders as a player so that the door is open for you to come back. Is that part of you as a player have done such a good job in the environment that people are more than happy, when you're a coach, to go, come on back. Is that something that you're proud of?
Speaker 1:Oh, definitely proud. Even though I've been all around the world and played for all those different teams, I still see myself as being super loyal.
Speaker 2:On paper. Mate, I'm looking at you.
Speaker 1:When I go into a team or a different environment, I fully commit, 100% and it's just who I am.
Speaker 1:You know, I don't go in there and try and change who they are.
Speaker 1:I go in there and learn who they are as a rugby team, I learn their way and then I just fully commit to their culture or their organisation or their team and then I don't know, because I'm just fully committed and I'm a rugby man and pretty easy to get along with and I'm super competitive.
Speaker 1:I think I've always been trained as hard as I ever could for a game of rugby, even though I enjoy bears my whole rugby career this is one thing I'm super proud about is I've never, ever, had a bear during the week leading into a game of rugby. So preparation was always the most important thing for me. So, yeah, I just think I just went into all those environments, committed 100 to them. I was who I was, genuinely who I, who I am as a person and a rugby player, and I just always tried to make the team better and, um, I think that makes good coaches as well yeah, well, I can certainly attest to the fact that, even though you said you never had to be a midweek, you certainly doubled down on the weekend, post games at times, and even post-season.
Speaker 2:I remember sessions at Gardies with crates lined up, and I think you were probably a three-day, three-day-in-a-row sort of guy back then.
Speaker 1:At least you know these days of your life, those ones that's where you know like if you fully commit to an environment and a culture and you put your heart and soul into it. And then you get to the end of the year and you've only got two or three days, sometimes four, sometimes five. Some guys only have one, but they miss out. It's the last time you're ever going to be spending time with those group of guys. You know like that's it, that's it for your season's done and you'll, you'll never play with those guys again. You'll never have the same relationship with those guys again, around the 100% sacrifice and commitment and, you know, trying to win games of rugby it's. You know they're special times and I think you've got to enjoy this.
Speaker 2:Mate.
Speaker 1:Which I did, yeah, but you certainly did, mate.
Speaker 2:You certainly did. Well, talking about sacrifice and hard work, mate, one of the things which I guess a lot of people don't realise about you is some of the injuries you've had as a player which you've worked back from, which I think is a lovely story in itself about you as a bloke and what you've come through. I hope you don't mind sharing this, but you had a bloke and what you've come through. I hope you don't mind sharing this, but you had a pretty serious hand injury. As a young fella right, I did, yeah, and you're trained to be left-handed. I think that shows a lot about you as a bloke, mate. Am I correct that your hand went through a window and you pretty much severed all the tendons and you almost had to amputate the hand that was on the table.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was young I was young at the time so I was only I think I was two or three years old and cut all the tendons in my hand and basically had to have them replaced over the next seven years. So that was my right hand and originally I believe I was a right-hander because I do everything right-handed but, um, naturally anything I do single-handed I'm left-handed now. So, because I had no use of my hand for seven years, I had to basically do everything left-handed, which then made me, you know, obviously left-handed, but naturally I'm a right-hander and I'm a right-footer. But going through that and then having to, I guess, teach yourself to be left-handed, I think probably eventually helped me be a better person and be a coach really, or be a sports person. I didn't have a lot of natural ability. It was all around all my sporting stuff, around how hard I work and how much I see how to be better and how I know how to be better and then how I can coach myself to be better.
Speaker 2:That's right. And then later on at Sanya, I remember oh, panasonic, you put a hole in your pancreas a lot. Was it a rib break? And it went through. It was pretty life-threatening right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it ruptured my pancreas and it was life-threatening. It was basically 20 minutes into the game, got hit late, didn't see it coming and just sort of was on the ground for a wee bit not too long, hopefully. Yeah, got up and I played the rest of the game. So finished the 80 minutes and then after the game my body just started to shut down and I just didn't understand what was going on. They had to call the ambulance, got rushed to hospital sort of eventually got put through some scans. Then they found internal bleeding and then they go we're not sure where it's coming from. Then they had to do a dye test. So they put dye through my body and then they found out it was the pancreas. So then everyone basically from there became 50-50 whether I was going to survive, told my wife I might not make it.
Speaker 1:And then I spent two weeks in ICU trying to recover from this pancreas injury where they put a stent through my pancreas and let the pancreas heal.
Speaker 1:Around the stent they had six tubes coming out of my out of my body, um to drain all the um in, all the bile that the pancreas produces which digests your food, which eventually digests your organs. So that's where it becomes life-threatening. So they drain all that out of your body and you're not allowed to eat any food, you're not allowed to move. So I went into the hospital sort of weighing about 85 kgs and I walked out at 72 after six weeks of just basically shutting your whole body down and you know, and trying to fix the pancreas and then, you know, allow you to then start eating and then move you out of hospital. So it was a pretty brutal time. I wasn't a very good patient but it was pretty dire. I played 80 minutes of rugby and then I went and had to do two operations and then six weeks I think it was probably about four weeks later I had my first shower.
Speaker 2:Having not had one, post the game.
Speaker 1:So you can imagine what sort of state I was in. I was a tough patient. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then, mate, most people would not even consider playing rugby post that, but you still came back and put on the weight again and got back out there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I sent my family home and then gave myself three months to get back for Sanya, it was. So I had three months to get back to because we had a pretty good team at the time to try and take part of the final of the top league. It was at the time Did you play the final? I ended up getting there played 40 minutes.
Speaker 2:Oh, mate, well, Brownie, I guess that sort of epitomizes you and that's the sort of thing that the players all have so much respect because you bring that sort of competitiveness to your coaching as well. So it's a great story. It just shows you as a bloke and gee, I wouldn't know many people that would be rushing to get back after two weeks with tubes coming in and out of you.
Speaker 1:Can't go out like that, mate. That was my only thought. It's no weakness, no weakness, mate.
Speaker 2:I do remember you saying that they tried to get the stent out and you had some intern trying to get the stent out with the wrong hook. They were trying to hook it with something else.
Speaker 1:It was brutal. It was brutal. Too long a story to tell.
Speaker 2:We'll save that one for another time. Now, brownie, when it comes to that sort of stuff in Japan, I'll see that that sort of sentiment goes down really well from a cultural perspective in any team where someone's doing that sort of stuff, uh, and just shows their passion, their commitment, like you talk about. But, mate, what lessons have you picked up from the different places you've been to? Like you talked about the highlanders and the southern man what's the what's some of the things you've picked up around cultural aspects of your time in japan and then your time in south africa that would be different to normal experiences?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, especially going to Japan, because it's such a different culture. I think South Africa is quite similar to New Zealand in a way, but Japan is just the complete opposite of what you're used to in New Zealand. And I feel a lot of players go to Japan and they struggle and you know, the biggest lesson I reckon I've learned is that you can't change the way that you know a team is, without understanding or buying in or committing, committing 100% to the way that they already do it. You know, you hear a lot of stories where guys go to Japan and they don't enjoy it because they can't change who or how the team plays or how the team trains. But the lessons that I've learned is you've got to go in there and you've got to buy into how they do it.
Speaker 1:The lessons that I've learned is you've got to go in there and you've got to buy into how they do it. You've got to fully commit to the way that they do it and their culture already. And then, once you've done that and you've committed, and they see that you're committing, and then you can have a little bit of influence around certain things. But ideally you just want to go and fully commit yourself to the way that they do it already and try and have an impact on the players around you. Have an impact on how well you play the game, have an impact on how the players see you play the game and how the players see you train.
Speaker 1:I think that's the influence of a foreigner going into a different culture and a different environment. But I think the lesson is you never, ever, can go in there and change the way that they've always done it for so many years. Because who's to say that you're right? Who's to say that the New Zealand way of playing rugby is the best way? You know Japan play the game a certain way and you know it's the way they've always done it. So I always just believe you just fully commit to that and then you can have influence on how well the team plays.
Speaker 2:Have you had any mistakes in that front?
Speaker 1:I think you know, initially you go in there and you, you, you think if we do it this way, it's going to be better without. I think everyone has has a couple of those mistakes. Um, but then eventually, when you talk to other foreigners, and all the foreigners you go to, you go around Japan and you play all these different foreigners and they all moan about the same stuff.
Speaker 2:About the cold coffee in cans versus the flat white sake.
Speaker 1:Yeah you know like, oh, we train for so long and we do things, all these stupid things. That is the Japan way, you know. And when you've been there for 10 years and the new guys are complaining about the same stuff, you know it's never, ever going to change. You've just got to get on board and fully commit to that way of playing the game, or that way the team culture operates.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a fascinating place, isn't it? And, brownie, what about the South African journey for you? You said it's the same as well, similar to New Zealand, but you're obviously returning there now as a coach. How's that process been, that transition to coaching the South African team with Rassi and the guys?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's been definitely an awesome experience. Rassi's an amazing operator and the players are so committed to making sure South Africa is a good rugby nation that are a pleasure to coach. So the same thing, because I've got a certain style around how I try and play the game and how the game should be played, but I never, ever went into the South African team and said you've got to play the game the way that I want to coach it. I went into the South African team and I went well, this is the way that they are how they play the game already. This is how I can make them a better attacking side. So, instead of me trying to put my coaching philosophy on them, I'm trying to help them improve the way that they always do it. It's their way. I'm not going to make them play like New Zealand rugby players. I'm just going to try and improve South African rugby the way that they've always done it for hundreds of years.
Speaker 1:And I think that's as a coach going into a new environment or a new team or a new country you've got to be really mindful of making sure that you're not the guy with all the knowledge. You're the guy that can help them. Who've got all the knowledge and influence them. I think it's you've got to be really mindful of that, I think, because you can lose a lot of respect quickly if you always think you're the main guy in the room and if you go back to. You know what I believe about coaching the players are the most important. Um, you've got to keep it really simple and it's got to be easy to understand all that stuff around who I am as a coach, and if you tie that in with the south african way, then I can have an influence on how they play.
Speaker 2:I think you're really unique in that, mate, because a lot of coaches wouldn't be able to be, um, just to step back enough to then work through that rather than put their stuff in.
Speaker 1:So it's quite a unique thing you're doing there yeah, and I think, but I think it's the most powerful, then it's the way you can get the fastest change. Even what was your brief? What was your brief?
Speaker 1:when, like when, when russie talked to you about that, without giving away too much stuff, nah just they just wanted to move their attack, try and make their attack a little bit better, but I think they just needed an attack coach and he'd coached me before. He knew that. I saw the game. You know a little bit differently, Russ. He's a super innovative guy. Anyway. He's amazing to sort of sit alongside and have meetings with, have chats too about the game and how you train and how you play. So we were always going to coach well together and I think he knew that and I was excited about seeing how he operated as a coach and South Africa are obviously a pretty awesome team, so it was no brainer for me to get in there and get involved.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's quite cool, isn't it? So Africa, despite winning World Cups with a certain way of playing, are still open and innovative to keep changing at the moment, keep bringing new ideas, new people like yourself, and it's a testament to a head coach that's prepared to not be single-minded but to just keep building and keep innovating, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the key point there is without losing your way. You know and the South Africans have a massive strength around how they play the game and as long as you're not losing your way and you're, you know you're adding value in and around that, you know that big rock that makes you a good rugby team then you're always going to be successful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, love it, mate. And how's the coffee standard? I know you're big on your coffee Brownie. Is it living up to expectations?
Speaker 1:Yeah, strong, strong in South Africa. But even in Japan the last 10 years. When we first went there in early 2000s, the coffee was nowhere, was it? No, you couldn't get a good cup of coffee. But in Japan now the coffee culture is pretty huge, some amazing coffee there and same in South Africa. It's pretty good the rest of the world. It's hard not to get a good coffee around the world nowadays.
Speaker 2:Mate, well, this keeps you going right, it keeps you fizzing Cool. And one of the things, mate, not just the coffee, but like it's quite a nomadic lifestyle, isn't it this pro coaching, where you're actually away quite a bit. How have you adapted to that over time, mate, like for people that are not in pro rugby, that's some big hours away from family and things right and family and things right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is. And I go back to I'm a rugby man. My wife sort of knows that I've got two daughters. They understand that I've always for our whole relationship and with my wife and also my two kids, it's always been that way. It's just what we know. I think if I'm at home too much, I think I disrupt the apple cart a little bit. So I get to a certain stage where they definitely say it's time for you to get away again.
Speaker 2:Yep, they say what's the role? As far away across the world as possible. Japan, that's good. Japan, that's good. South Africa, that's good, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:No, it's definitely tough at times, but it's just what I've always loved doing and I guess my family's pretty understanding and you know they get a lot of enjoyment around even though they're based in Dunedin around traveling and following the footy as well, so you know it's amazing lifestyle, really can't complain brownie.
Speaker 2:You're such an authentic bloke, mate. You're a rugby man through and through, and even you saying that then just makes me chuckle, because it's it's so true. Now, mate, I want to. This is the final question, mate, and it's one I'm interested for you what's one thing about rugby that you reckon your peers or coaches?
Speaker 1:may not agree with that you believe in. Yeah, it's a tough question. I'm not sure, really, I'm not sure. Yeah, um, yeah, um, you know, like, I think, like, definitely, coaching is not an easy art. Um, that's why I think you've just always got to be yourself, um, and especially with professional rugby, I think you know like there's definitely a massive push to you know, to get into high performance and to push high performance as far as you can. You know, statistically, you have all the stats, you have all the, you know, you have all the trainers and you have all this knowledge and you keep pushing in high performance, high performance, high performance.
Speaker 1:But what I sort of believe in is not always high performance is best, I think, if you can create the culture and the environment where it's natural it's based around the players. You've got the team, you've got the coaches. You've got the team, you've got the coaches, you've got the staff, you've got. I think culture and environment is better than high performance, I believe. And it's got to be genuine and you can't fake it and you definitely can't force high performance on a group of players that are not high performing or don't believe in everything that high performance brings. You can train the players hard. You can push them hard, but it's not through high performance standards, it's through your environment and your culture standards that gets the best out of the players, your culture standards that gets the best out of the players. So I'm not saying throw away high performance, but I'm saying you can't always go down a high performance road and hope it's going to work, but you can always go down the culture and environment road and know that it's going to put you in a better place.
Speaker 2:I love that, mate, because the phrase high performance gets used a lot. Yes, it's even hard to define what high performance is for most teams. Would you agree with that?
Speaker 1:I think so because I think most teams don't 100% believe in a lot of the stuff that comes out and definitely if you're a coach that doesn't quite believe it, then the players are going to jump on that as well and then they're going to see a little bit of doubt or weakness in your ability to coach, going to see a little bit of doubt or weakness in your ability to coach.
Speaker 2:Yeah, mate, with the rise and the rapid growth of professionalism in rugby and with all the other resources such as top-drawer analytics and dieticians, nutritionists, the 1% performance, sometimes flipping to the 60%, is where that's valued more than actually just getting around and enjoying what. You do that kind of thing right, and that's where you're excellent at.
Speaker 1:Yeah well, you might get a few comments to prove me wrong, but you know, I just 100% believe if you can get the culture and environment right, then naturally you're going to be able to push the players to a high-performing standard, I suppose.
Speaker 2:Love it, mate. Thank you very much for your time today, mate. You're an absolute wealth of knowledge and you live everything you say 100. Having been with you for a long time, I understand that, mate. You are exactly what you come across as, and it's awesome and a dangerous man to be on uh and around at the guardies tavern post season, for sure, or any card game that involves any sort of drinking. Probably don't sit to the left of you.
Speaker 1:I was just thinking, you know, I think, inspiring me. Around those sort of times you need someone. You need someone to create the energy and excitement around the third, fourth day, because you know the weaker guys tend to fall off around day one, day two. So be strong, far out. Thanks, brother, appreciate it. All right mate. Fall off and around day one, day two. So be strong, far out. Thanks, brother, appreciated.
Speaker 2:All right mate, always a pleasure here are my final three thoughts from a conversation with brownie. Number one rugby man first, coach second. This is a cool statement because it puts everything in perspective. It helps with your ability to really connect to what's important Now. Rugby is a special sport and despite its physical brutality, it truly is a values first sport and a statement like this is always great to remember that you lead with values first.
Speaker 2:Number two Brownie's philosophy Easy to learn, simple to understand, challenging to execute. It's often easy to bog players down as well as team members down with erroneous details. The skill and art in coaching and leading is to boil down all of the complexity. So it's easy to learn and simple to understand and that's a lovely philosophy to have and hold dear. Number three the coaching disease. This is an important concept to remember and make sure you try to stay immune as much as you can to this. We all want to succeed in what we're doing and we must remember that the cost of everything we do. We've got to remember what success looks like Picking and choosing the right time to work hard and the right time to play hard, and that fine balance in between. That is the essence for great team dynamics and, as a leader your ability to read. This is crucial for any great culture to flourish.