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Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
John Mitchell: How Adversity Reshapes Coaching Philosophy
Questions? Text Ben Herring direct.
What happens when a coach who's traversed the globe leading elite teams for nearly three decades opens up about his most profound lessons? John Mitchell, whose remarkable career spans from All Blacks Head Coach to his current role with England's women's national team, reveals the transformative journey that reshaped his entire approach to leadership.
Mitchell's philosophy is deceptively simple yet powerful: "Your leadership determines your culture, your culture determines your behavior, and behavior determines results." But arriving at this clarity required a harrowing personal experience. After being tied up with mobile phone wire, stabbed during an attack in South Africa, and witnessing how his outcome-obsessed approach had damaged his personal relationships, Mitchell underwent a complete reinvention of his coaching identity.
The conversation explores the stark contrast between Mitchell's early "transactional" days—where players were evaluated solely on their contribution to winning—and his current approach centered on genuine connection. He now prioritizes understanding each player as a person first, recognizing that psychological safety forms the foundation for trust, communication, and ultimately, performance. His admission that "culture is never sitting still" reveals how he constantly realigns team values as players evolve through life experiences, sometimes transforming dramatically in just months.
Most compelling is Mitchell's advice for aspiring coaches: study the game obsessively, but balance professional drive with meaningful personal relationships. Connect not just with established veterans but with younger coaches who see things differently. And perhaps most importantly, recognize that the most significant growth often comes through acknowledging mistakes—the forced culture at Western Force, the miscommunication at the Lions—and learning from them rather than repeating them.
Ready to transform your approach to leadership, whether in sport or life? Listen as Mitchell shares how creating environments where people feel valued and understood ultimately creates the conditions for sustainable success.
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In rugby you actually have to pay a price if you want to be good. I chased outcome and didn't have a consistent process. It was a lot more transactional. Stupid though I was, stupid, but that's all I knew. You have too much group setting in your environment. You'll never know whether people agree or not. You might think you've got agreement, but you've got to check to see that they've got understanding. And then I was tied up with mobile phone wire and curtain cord wire and obviously stabbed in the process of waking up.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is John Mitchell. Now John has coached more teams professionally than any other coach. Here's his rap sheet Starting in 1996, he was the Ireland forwards coach, sail Sharks. England, london Wasps Chiefs. Head coach of the All Blacks. Waikato Western Force, golden Lions Lions. Sail Sharks. Head coach of United States, the Bulls, the Blue Bulls. England defence coach, japan defence coach and, since 2023, the England woman national head coach. John is very experienced as a coach and he's the first to admit that he has changed immensely as a coach and as a person throughout his epic journey. Today, he opens up about how much here he is. Today he opens up about how much here he is. Mitch, great to have you here. The question that I love asking mate to start off with is your definition of culture. With all your experiences and there's a lot of them how do you define it? It's funny.
Speaker 1:hey, culture's a bit like for me it's a bit like understanding religion, like you know religion for me as well like at times you go, geez, that's gray, or yeah, how does that work? And then culture for me sometimes has been gray as well, but I think over over time it probably comes down to for me it comes down to. For me it comes down to is your leadership, I think, determines your culture and your culture determines your behavior. And so then I think that then equals your results basically. So what does that mean in context?
Speaker 1:If you've got really, really good leadership, then they're going to lead a culture with conviction in a way, and then you're going to see really good behaviors and generally most of the time you get good results, whereas if you've got poor culture so poor leadership, poor culture, poor actions you get results. So maybe an example is you look at Wales at the moment, like from the top, and you got is the leadership right? Question mark Is the culture right as a result of the leadership? Probably not. And then look at the actions that they're getting and look at the results they're getting. So to me I think those three things have all got a direct correlation really like when you really sum it up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and when you say right at the top, do you refer to? We're not just talking about, like the head coach, but you're talking about the big dog at the very top. Yes, it was the pack box.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think your administration, your performance, part of that administration and then, as a result of that, your pathway isn't it? Because your feeding system, especially in a national system, you need to make sure that the leadership, the culture and the behaviors are probably pretty similar all the way through so that when people do arrive at a high level, they feel safe, they feel connected and they understand the culture. Yeah, that's required.
Speaker 2:It's interesting that you said feel safe, because there's actually Google did that famous study where psychological safety was their biggest determinant of how good a culture is. Is that something that feeling for you, that is an important part of culture, feeling safe is an important part of culture feeling safe.
Speaker 1:I think safety allows a person to be able to start building trust. I think it allows them to be able to communicate. I think it's the early part of creating connection, because I think, as you know, in your era and probably even my era, like in teams, it was very much group settings, wasn't it? And I think, the more that you can tailor your communication to the individual and then you allow the end and ultimately, at the end of the day, what is communication? You've got to create an understanding, don't you? So there's a lot of misunderstood. So, to me, to be safe, you need to be able to allow that person to communicate and allow them to be themselves, which then allows you to create connection, and that probably gives you a better chance these days to connect the athlete, the person, to the strategy that you want the team to play or the culture that you want the team to live under or look like.
Speaker 2:And what comes first for you? Is it the strategy or the culture? Where do you place the value there?
Speaker 1:I'd probably say that most teams that win, they probably win through their culture first.
Speaker 1:Yeah sad porn? Yeah, I think so. I think another way to break it down how often do we review culture? It's a hard thing to measure. What does it look like, what does it feel like, what does it act like, Like you know? Maybe it's not a question that you ask internally of individuals, even though you will through staff and players, but I think it's probably a question that you should out from them. What the culture looks like you know, what does it feel like, you know, and then what does it act like? And maybe there's something in that to be able to improve your culture moving forward.
Speaker 2:Well, that's interesting, mate. So your measurement is really a subjective feel, in that example, from fans or community around how they feel the team is. Oh, that's that's interesting, because why do you reckon that is? Do you reckon the subliminally or subtly, the whatever's happening in the team leaks out into that wider community and and then that somehow feeds back? Or why would you say that the fans or that exterior people might have a good read on what a culture is, what gives them that?
Speaker 1:cool feeling. I think they see your actions, they see your behavior, they see your energy through the way that, whether you smile, connect and brace, you know like you're tough, you're tough to beat that, yeah, those kind of things. And you, you look organized, or you, you, you, you know, you look, you look fit, yeah, like it's kind of like whatever. You must present some sort of imagery to people to go, and then people that have got a little bit more knowledge maybe can conclude on that more than others, but then other people that are not so experienced in that particular sport, then they might just get a feeling of some sort. I think that's probably the greatest measure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because when you watch a game you kind of have a bit of a feeling what might be the undercurrent stuff, don't you? When you're watching other teams, you kind of get a feel of, yeah, maybe things aren't quite right in that team, just by the way they're playing.
Speaker 1:And then I think, then I also think, depending on what type of personality you are as well, you're like, some people sense a disconnection and connection and some people don't. So you know, leaders, leaders.
Speaker 2:Mate it reminds me of at home, actually, like my wife can sense things better than I can around the kids when the kids need it and when they don't.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's for me. I'm very lucky that mum and dad, you know, gave me something in that area, because that's something that I think holds me in good stead. I sense connection and disconnection very, very quickly, so I'm lucky. But a non-relational person might not even pick that up. They might have to receive that through, through a colleague or you're, like you say, outside feedback and is that something like?
Speaker 2:you're good at that sort of stuff? The relationship side how do you, how have you, have you worked on it and grown it like it's a strength of yours? But have you, you know, doubled down on that and said, right, let's get good at that. And and if you have, what have you done to potentially grow?
Speaker 1:that side of you.
Speaker 1:I think I've made a lot of mistakes in that area and the reason why I say that is that when you're a younger coach, you're not an expert or you're developing, whether you've got strengths or not.
Speaker 1:So my personality tends to get tangled up and that if I stay in the relationship space I've got real strengths. But if you drag me into, into the weeds yeah, the task and stuff then you lose my relationship space. So I'm very aware, you know, uh, of myself when I'm getting too too, too caught in the weeds when I should be staying in the relationship space. And when I say in the relationship space, I'm probably less conscious of being. Well, certainly, when I was younger I was probably very conscious of being a coach, whereas now I'm very, you just receive me the way I am and I don't premeditate things. And maybe that just comes through the fact that I've got enough experience, or I've built experience over a long period of time and as a result of that, I can break things down into principles as a reference point and I'm very, very focused on making sure that I connect an individual to the strategy, and that's my little game really.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, mate, just when you said, you get caught in the weeds. Is that like the X's and O's of rugby, the skills and drills? Is that where you're referring to? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Like task. It could be logistics. Yeah, it could be. Yeah, like you say, the X's and the O's. It could be the game. It could be in selection. There's always a task involved in there, like in a lot of the facets, but ultimately, at the end of the day, the tasks that you're doing are often leading to having to communicate to somebody, isn't it to?
Speaker 1:help them understand, and the more that I stay in the space of actually helping people understand, the better. But you've got to prepare for it, don't you? That's right? So, yeah, that's the way.
Speaker 2:You actually said something else there which I'd be keen to get a bit of a deeper dive on. You said when you're a younger coach, you're actually really conscious of being a coach. I found that a really interesting phrase because I think I know what you mean, but I feel, like young coaches or green coaches that's something that everyone goes through, like I'm the coach, I have to be x, y and z and be seen to be this, and that is that what you're referring to when you mean like were you conscious of being a coach yeah, maybe like when I first started out as coaching because I didn't have the expertise um, typical amateur rugby player, loose forward.
Speaker 1:Thought I could teach the breakdown Probably. Thought I could teach people to be fit. Thought I could help teams Certainly knew how to give to a team. So all those sort of things were my early characteristics of my coaching. You know like little did I know that I was going to have to find and learn lots of other facets as well. And then going from being a quantity surveyor to a coach, it's funny as a quantity surveyor you just remained the same person, but you obviously calculated and estimated value of buildings and stuff like that, whereas for some reason because becoming a professional coach was quite a unique role back then for me. And then obviously the higher the levels you go, you go shivers. So maybe what I wasn't I wasn't authentic to myself at that point in time, and I think it purely comes down to the fact is that you just don't have the expertise. You know like you're building it and sometimes you have to go through mistakes and learnings in order to be able to add something to it. You know like yeah yeah, it's actually fascinating.
Speaker 2:You say that other jobs you can just certainly turn up and switch off afterwards. But that seems to be a trait of coaches that you don't. It stays with you until bedtime and then even into your dreams at times.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it does, it does. It's interesting like I studied the game, I think pretty well, I find a lot of younger coaches that I know these days they actually don't study the game as much as they should. It's amazing if I didn't study to keep studying the game, I would have been well gone by now.
Speaker 2:Is that right? Yeah, I guess, mate. Another like, when you're talking about the studying have you studied on the side of culture around? You know, like, because some people think there's an element of guesswork to culture. But have you dived a bit deeper into actual things which work for you when you get into new environments? Because you've been through a lot of environments? Um, mate, I was actually. You probably get this a lot much, but when you, when you go through your run sheet of teams, it's absolutely phenomenal. I think you would be probably the most well-traveled coach in the world at a professional coach in the world at the moment. It's unbelievable. So do you have a sort of set cultural routine when you get into teams around? This is what I like to do. This is how I like to try to bring the environment together. Do you have anything practically you like to do?
Speaker 1:The first thing you learn pretty quickly. You can't force culture, but where does the culture need attention? The analogy is like it's probably like growing a garden, isn't it? You wake up in the morning and you've got to go well, okay, where does my garden need attention? Where do I need to water it? Where do I need to water it?
Speaker 1:And so the first thing, I think, is when you take over a team I think again, expertise, experience I think every country or team has almost like a DNA culture, isn't it? They have a historical culture that they carry. You've got that and you need to understand that. And then, I think it's you try and then work out what they value and then, as a result of what they value, you then see what's aligned with your own own way, own values that you think the team should come alive with. And sometimes, when you get a team that's really, really struggling, you just almost got to create a template and get them going. And a lot of other teams you've got to merge it, and then other teams that are successful already. You can just plant yourself in it because you know the standards and behaviors are bringing the results. So you've just got to just make sure that the leadership and the culture and the behaviors are just presenting themselves, and when you see some poor behavior, then you can create awareness around getting that right again. Do you know what I mean? So to me, do you have a young team of 19 to 23? Do you have a team of 23 to 32? Or do you have an aging team?
Speaker 1:And all those factors need to be considered as well, because the growth of the younger athletes these days to give you an example, tom Curry and Sam Underhill in the 2019 World Cup, they were young men. They're now married, got children. They're now married, got children. Within six months or three or four months from that World Cup, they went into another tournament and you need to understand that their life is going to change as well. They're going to be different people based on what they're exposed to. So you've got to consider the growth of your people from one competition to the other. You've also got to consider the residual tensions or behaviours that were poor in the previous campaign. They've got to be resolved before you come into the next campaign. So your culture's never, never, never, really ever, sitting and it'll never, never, remain the same, because even, but, however, the reference, the principles, the values have to be, have to be upgraded. I guess with the growth of the individuals within the team Does that make sense. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it does. It's a lovely phrase. Culture is never sitting, it's this dynamic thing which is constantly evolving. Yeah, and I love your reference to a generational change. These guys at 19 are different. In seven years' time, same guys. Well, I remember those two lads.
Speaker 1:They went from that 2019 World Cup into the next Six Nations and they were different young men. They were just different people because of exposure. Four or five months earlier or after the World Cup they arrived as different people because they had grown from the experience. They had grown from the exposure. They'd grown from the exposure that had greater awareness. So what they valued in that tournament was quite different to probably what they valued in the next tournament. So it's almost like you've got to constantly create realignment to your culture every new campaign that you go into.
Speaker 2:Constantly realign your value? Yeah, and have you had any failures? Mitch around the culture.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:You got any examples.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I forced it at the force, probably.
Speaker 2:Is that just because it runs in with the name?
Speaker 1:big um. Is that just because it runs in with the name um, I think? I think um, I did it. I probably had a like, a like a culture that I thought that we needed to live by. But there was a lot, of, a lot of transient movement of players and, bearing in mind, it was the inaugural coach, so I started off with what seven people that understood what a professional rugby environment was like, and then there was sort of like 36 other lads from eastern states that had come from all different types of cultures. So I found that really hard to merge that, looking back with the experience I have now, looking back with the experience I have now, I probably would have bought them into it a lot more and got their buy-in, did you?
Speaker 2:not get the buy-in? Did you not get it? No?
Speaker 1:and that was my fault, because I probably, definitely probably forced it to be like that, because I thought, you know, like I probably also fell into the trap of chasing outcome at that point too quickly and probably sort of got them to be part of it more.
Speaker 2:yeah, in hindsight, you try to bring in a professional thing too early. They weren't ready and you just needed to get a bit of buy-in and a bit of connection first, but you went too early on that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then there was also the Lions, where we hadn't won a Curry Cup for 51 years at home. They'd gone 17-0, I think. Before we sort of started building a new culture, got them to win a Curry Cup at home. And then I think we tested the fitness-wise three days after the Curry Cup final, because you know, you're going back into Super Rugby and they were about to have a break. And again it's like I didn't create the understanding. So communication Communication is that you might think you've got agreement, but you've got to check to see that they've the understanding. So communication Communication is that you might think you've got agreement, but you've got to check to see that they've got understanding. So I didn't create that. I think in my leadership they're around the reasons why we're testing before we exit the holiday, because we've got to have some sort of benchmark. But they saw that probably as having to work hard without any reason. So those sorts of things.
Speaker 1:To me, when you look at communication, you believe in something, don't you? You believe in something that this is the way we should go, and then you just sometimes think, oh've got to kind of get agreement, but as you know, you people only take ownership when they agree. Um, so I think you've got to sit in the space a lot more around checking for understanding. You know, do they understand? And I think then the design of your questions, uh, as a coach or as a leader, are really, really important in that area to help you feel that they understand, because often I think I've been guilty of moving too fast. To get ownership, yeah, yeah, to get ownership.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So when you said people only take ownership when they agree, do you? Do you find people agree easy and you have to sort of dig out a rival statement on that, like, I'd imagine, most players. If you said we're doing this, I would go, yeah, okay, but that's not, that's not agreeing, that's not buying agreement, isn't it? That's just agreeing because you're the head coach.
Speaker 1:I'm too scared to say otherwise, or see if you have too much group setting. You have too much group setting in your environment. You'll never know whether people agree or not. It'll come out in what you see, what you feel and the way you act. But if you spend more time with small groups, individuals and asking the right multiple questions, then I think you've got to again. You're creating a forum where you're giving the person the ability to understand why they're doing it.
Speaker 2:Love it, mate. Yeah, that's massive. That group think, think, isn't it like you just take the path at least resistance when you're in a big group of the most vocal guys saying something right, let's just go that way it's interesting that the netflix are on at the moment.
Speaker 1:You know where they show the previous season, six nations and stuff, and I know, I know there's a lot of cutting and setting and stuff and that, but just about every coach is in a group setting. All the speak by the coaches throughout that Netflix seems to be in group communication and I just sit there and I just wonder, oh, I wonder what the one-on-one, the smaller group communication's like, and surely there must be some of that by the better teams to be successful in what they do, because you can definitely see Ireland own their game, don't they?
Speaker 2:And do you do a lot of that sort of stuff? Do you do a lot of one-on-ones? Is that part of your cultures nowadays?
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I do a lot of one-on-ones. Yeah, but not again. It comes down to being you know what does that person like? How does she or him like to communicate? Yeah, like we're living in a world where they're used to going to a coffee shop, whatever their personality relates to. Going back to that starting point that conscious coach with a cap on his head and stuff you almost think that you thought you had to bring people into the headmaster's office, whereas now I can receive somebody down the corridor and I can look them in the eyes and go, no, they're not ready for my communication, or they are ready, or then you know some people like a formal meeting, you know, so then you make that happen for them. You know, like it's around understanding what's safe for them. You know, like safety, that it's around understanding what's safe for them. You're like safety is not just uh, the. You know like um, somebody, not uh, somebody, not challenging them. Safety is like what is the preferred environment for, for, for communication?
Speaker 2:Yeah, what is the yeah?
Speaker 1:Like uh, what is the yeah, like uh, and then sometimes that you know it's you haven't got time, haven't you like? So yeah, you feel awful sometimes when they're in the selection space where you're giving somebody time you know like selected, and then you're not giving somebody enough time. That's not selected. You're like you know and to. There's a little bit of a challenge there. There needs to be more awareness from my side to make sure that I'm communicating for just as much with the non-23 as I am with the person who's selected.
Speaker 2:Are those tough conversations, Mitch?
Speaker 2:Oh, they are tough conversations but they're good conversations because they need to be transparent and clear and then making sure that you follow up on the ones that miss out on, I guess, the opportunity, and they've just got to make sure that they feel that they're valued well, yeah, yeah, mate, that's cool and I guess, in line with those harder conversations, those challenging conversations, do you feel stressful when it comes to that sort of stuff or is there anything which you as a leader sort of rubs you the wrong way or it winds you up a little bit and stress comes out? Do you get a little bit of stress, doubt that kind of thing come into your coaching at the level you're?
Speaker 1:at. I think I used to get stressed by the fact that I was potentially hurting somebody through decision, whereas now I don't certainly don't get stressed, but I just put myself second. I probably definitely put myself second a lot more these days than when I first started coaching, Whereas now it's kind of like well, what would you feel like if you were in their shoes? How do you think they will take it and use it? What are they like as a person receiving this information more so than what they would be like receiving it as a rugby player?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, gotcha, you take it from a personal point of view. How would this person take it, rather than this player would take the speech from them?
Speaker 1:Whereas in my early days I probably again in that conscious space that I need to give them the rugby speak. I need to give them the rugby speak. Whereas you can still go to questions, can't you around? Why do you think you're in this position? You can still go to the performance gap, can't you? But it's like, at the end of the day, they're just going to feel that you value them as a person, and I guess what you're really summing up is do I trust you and do I not trust you? You're like, but you can't frame it that way.
Speaker 2:No, you can't.
Speaker 1:Because they're going to receive it that way. They're like he doesn't trust me. Of course I don't trust you, so you prove to me that I can trust you. So how are you going to find a way? Do you need some help to find that way?
Speaker 2:Would you have any gold nuggets for coaches around delivering that sort of advice to ensure that the environment is still rolling well in terms of a good way to do some of that harder conversation stuff?
Speaker 1:Well, I think it comes down to selection anxiety. Sometimes people leave selection hanging for a long time. I've been through all those processes. People know, people see, people feel. So I think the earlier that you can draw the line in the sand, then I think players, people, the people at the end of the day, they appreciate that communication far better than getting it late and there's always a way to enable. A person isn't there.
Speaker 1:Sometimes it's unfair that you bring the problem to a player because sometimes they're not aware, they're not aware. So if the leadership group haven't made them aware, if the assistant coach haven't made them aware and the head coach haven't made them aware, if the assistant coach haven't made them aware and the head coach haven't made them aware, then how can you enable that person to change their behavior? So sometimes you've got to actually put your hand up and say, hey, we haven't done this well enough to change your behavior, we haven't given you that information early enough, early enough. And I actually feel for them when the program and I'm the leader of the program that we sometimes let the person down in that area because they just don't have the awareness. But we think as human beings oh, they're professional rugby players, they should know, but that's not always the case.
Speaker 2:Yes, no, and so just deliver it. Just if you take it like that, this is helping that person be better by just let, by bringing that awareness, that's a great way to bring advice, isn't it?
Speaker 1:so be second and just sit in the space. Have we enabled this person? Yeah, and and and. Then give people I'm all for giving people you know, second chances. You know like it's it's, whereas in the, in the younger days, there's probably a little bit more conscious around. You know you're gone onto the next.
Speaker 2:Free transaction rolling down the factory floor line yeah.
Speaker 1:And you do make a good point there. It was a lot more transactional. You know, like stupid though I was stupid, but that's all I knew. Where do you?
Speaker 2:reckon that comes from, because, like you were talking off air just earlier about you coming from an amateur era, we actually had to then learn about the professional era. Do you think there was bits that transferred from that or do you reckon it's just the way all coaches go through it? They go through a bit of a transactional piece under stress, perhaps an outcome-based thinking yeah, I can only really come from my, my background.
Speaker 1:So I was brought up like with sporting parents. Mom and dad wasn't a rugby player, mom and dad were basketballers, so there was a bit of a process of basketball. Um, clearly I had processes, uh. And then rugby. I can't say we definitely had. There was definitely that was called technique or skills or whatever.
Speaker 1:It wasn't a great tactical game. I didn't think when I played, maybe it was, but I mean I didn't see kicking the ball over the dead ball area, getting Fozzie to kick it over the dead ball area so that we could put Otago in the 22. I didn't see that as being a tactical genius. And then I had the quantity surveying background, which was obviously a sequential process of foundations to a roof. So I had that. But then when I went into coaching, I guess my process was actually very similar to building a house or constructing a building and running a project. So yeah, I was probably I fell into the trap because that was my learned process. I didn't have any knowledge or expertise in performance, I just played the game and I came from a bias, didn't I? I came from a bias of the way I was brought up and what I experienced in basketball rugby and as a quantity server. That was my background. Yeah, and so, yeah, I was too too conscious.
Speaker 2:I was far too transactional yeah, and like I guess the, the biggest piece of transactional is is you. You want to win. That's the ultimate. You know. I want people to make me want to win is that as you've gone over time, is that definition of success winning changed from from the early days, where that transactional piece of that sort of thing is important? Is it different now as you've had an amazing career as a coach?
Speaker 1:It's not a success. Yeah, I did chase it. I got a taste of it early, wanted more of it and then went after the World Cup semi-final. Rightly or wrongly, I was pretty hard on myself for four years and I chased outcome and didn't have a consistent process or methodology. I think that was going to allow me to consistently present the team's opportunities to win. So, falling into that outcome bubble, probably once I got attacked in South Africa, that probably challenged that evening, waking up from that going well, hold on, I need to sort some things out here, and I promised myself that I'd never fall into that mindset again, and so now it's basically enjoy it.
Speaker 2:Well, mitch, what was a little bit of the ground. For those that don't know, the attack in South Africa.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I started coaching the Lions and myself and the strength and conditioning coach, wayne Taylor. We were in a place in Hyde Park which is quite a good area of Santa and stuff, and we just left ourselves exposed because one of the windows was open and stuff. We just left ourselves exposed because one of the windows was open and stuff and they jumped in and they basically got us two in the morning in the sleep I thought it might have been Wayne playing a practical joke and then I was tied up with mobile phone wire and curtain cord wire and obviously stabbed in the process of waking up and, yeah, managed to seem like an eternity but managed to simply negotiate my way out of it and I was very fortunate.
Speaker 1:So from that point onwards I thought, shivers, you know like I need to change. But also there was another factor as well when I was in Nice, actually during the World Cup in 2007, with mates and I was in a Japanese restaurant where I think the All Blacks had played France in that quarterfinal and they had that defeat. And then all some of these emails in texas come through from the, from people from four years ago, you know, like saying you're like uh, you know, see, it can happen to somebody else. And that was also quite meaningful, because there's no way that I wanted to get any joy or or growth out of out of somebody else's misfortune as a coach. So again, for some reason my lenses were on outcome and I just wanted to change that around.
Speaker 2:Mate, I remember hearing about it. I didn't appreciate that South African incident was as brutal as that, like wrapped up with wire and stabbed. Was that a big game changer for you as a person, which went on yeah, yeah, yeah massive, just yeah massive shook your foundations, which, ultimately, you know you, you flowed into, obviously, what we're doing now, but did you do a big sort of man? I need to go a different way here. This is life, life's precious, that kind of thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was chasing outcome, my values weren't in a good place and I was a hard person. I was hard. So I thought, yeah, shit, those things need to change. So it was cool. It was one of the best things that had ever happened to me. Really shit, those things need to change. So it was cool. It was one of the best things that had ever happened to me really, to be fair, Wow, that's incredible, mate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a big game-changer man. What sort of advice would you give to people that potentially like coaches that are mirroring you before then, without obviously getting stabbed and tied up like you were? But, yeah, what would you say to someone that was a young you going down that path? What would be some points where you'd go hey, mate, just um, try something different. How anything jump out?
Speaker 1:I think. I think, because I put all my eggs in one basket, then then what you do one basket then my family, then you lose sight of your family, you lose sight of your friends, I lost sight of my community and my support community. That, I guess, gives me energy and social. So, yeah, I think they're the critical ones, because the game will come and go, as we see, as coaches, but your family and your friends, you know they're your rock solid. So, yeah, like, yeah, that's probably that's where you, that's where you get your balance. You know like and and perhaps I didn't get, didn't have my balance right, and then I made some decisions as a result of that, to, to based on what I, what I, what I value, you know, and it was. It was almost like what you call it a. Yeah, it was just a rejig, wasn't it really?
Speaker 2:Yeah, what do they call that? A rejig? Yeah?
Speaker 1:I don't know about that. I don't know about that, but it was just. I wish I had the awareness earlier, without having to go through that experience. But sometimes I mean the world will just create that. You know, it's amazing.
Speaker 2:Mate, and I guess that leads me to what keeps you motivated now. What keeps you going now? You've had, just man, an enormous career, the biggest in the game, I'm almost sure of it. What keeps you going now? What keeps you motivated and how do you maintain your passion for?
Speaker 1:so long I just think I love the game. The game intrigues me. Every game you watch there's always. I can't just sit there and watch it socially like you're that guy on the couch.
Speaker 1:I'm married to a South African, julie, and she, as you know, south Africans are like so passionate about their rugby and we've got a few in our street here in England. So they were I think it was in the last rugby championship. You know, they're all in the conservatory here and I'm sitting near the kitchen table and I think the All Blacks were going quite good in Joburg until they got a yellow card and stuff and then all of a sudden their energy just gets louder and louder and they just sort of submerge, quieter and quieter. But yeah, I'm sitting there and people go like are you watching it as a fan? And it's strange, I can't watch it as a fan. I'm always curious why something happens. I'm always curious why? Why did that happen? That's definitely trained. So I wonder how they trained that. And that's why I studied the game, because I get a lot of energy out of that. To me it's almost like unlocking one of those word puzzles. That's how I see rugby, you know like it's.
Speaker 2:Well, Mitch, I hate to do this to you, but that's probably not a great comparison about something which gets you going, isn't it Like unlocking one of the word puzzles? Yeah, it's torture to some people, isn't it? Yeah?
Speaker 1:it is. Well, I don't. I just watch my wife do that. So, uh, and it looks like torture and it looks like it's hard work, whereas I'm I'm, uh, definitely enjoying my solving of the puzzle a lot better. But yeah, no, it's just, it's intriguing the game. You're like um, and then you know, like old rugby, change parts of the games through law, interpretation and uh, and that context creates, know, flows onto something else, that, and then you're again.
Speaker 1:You're in this cycle of going okay, well, how do I, how do I take advantage of this? You know, like, because, ultimately, at the end of the day, all your plans are, all your plans are about winning. You're like, the reason why you're reviewing a plan or creating a new plan is because you're. The reason why you're reviewing a plan or creating a new plan is because the plans to win aren't they? That's what you want to do, and if you can come up with a plan that works, it's cool. It's a good feeling to see others go wow, that was really good. And then if other people own the plan and you were the seeds of the idea, that's just as enjoyable, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and with your study, who's the person who in coaching all leadership which you admire and take a lot of respect, and you think that's the person that I get a lot from from a rugby point of view.
Speaker 1:I've been really fortunate to have some people come past. I mean, I enjoyed reading in the early days of coaching Phil Jackson but I couldn't quite understand again I didn't have the expertise or his mindfulness the way that he was a really calm operator with the changing room of big egos and was able to create a team. When I was in Manchester with Sale I obviously had the opportunity to meet Alex Ferguson. He had a different style of leadership. I was coached by Laurie Mains who was strong, disciplinary but he worked you hard. Did you do the gauntlet?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, Did you do the gauntlet?
Speaker 1:Yeah, all that stuff Down and ups and 31-150s yeah.
Speaker 1:Nothing changed between me and you, mate, when I had him for a year and that was exactly those 150s, and yeah ruck and runs and all that stuff, um, but yeah, but then what he taught, taught is that you know, in rugby, you, you actually have to pay a price if you want to be good. Yeah, and so his price was that, but he was in a that suited at that particular time. The VO2 max measurement was his little metric and it worked for him. So then I had Kevin Green, who was such a really good man manager. He was my club coach, he was my provincial coach and he just let the senior players basically operate the team. And he was. Him and Farrell Tamato were just like really, really good blokes, but if something needed to be resolved then they were good at resolving, but they used the experience of the group, you know. And then, yeah, like I watched Grant Dalton from afar, like I love it when he speaks. He just looks like a flippant, resilient character, you know, like he just, and he knows where he's going, yeah. And then Sean Dice is a football coach over here, manager, who was a long time at Burnley, just recently just left Everton. He's a guy that seems to be able to get the best out of non-talented groups.
Speaker 1:Then there's Craig Bellamy at the Storm. Then there's Smithy, when I was Chiefs coach he was All Black coach. I just loved his manner. You've got Brownie Brownie. Now he's an exceptional attacking coach. You've got Clayton McMillan I think is a you know like, really enjoy conversations with him and, you know, watching with the Chiefs. And you've got Scott White as mentor in Australia. So I've been really, really fortunate to still remain connected to a lot of those people as well. And then I stay in touch with younger coaches. Like for an older coach not to stay connected to a really good younger coach is, you know like, I think, will be the death of an older coach, because they just see things differently. There's a guy called Adam Powell at Saracen who's a lead coach. Really enjoy his sharing and knowledge. My former analyst at the Lions is JP Ferrer. He's at Bath now as a defense coach and these guys are so good to stay connected with because they're up to date and they're experiencing the same challenges but at different times.
Speaker 2:I've got a quote from you actually, mitch, which sort of sums that up just there. This is what you said. You said to stay relevant oneself, you've got to learn to learn off others to reinvent oneself, and for me that sort of sums up what you just said is, with a career, as long as you've had it, to stay relevant you've got to reinvent yourself and learn off others. And I quite enjoy how you didn't just pick on the older crew to learn off, but actually went to younger coaches with obviously something to give as well. I think that's a really it's a cool aspect. You don't often hear of senior, experienced coaches like yourself diving back down to sort of up and comers, to resources of inspiration and and reinventing yeah, you know.
Speaker 1:Then you got mark mccoy. You know he's been long time saracens coach, you know, great bloke, um, definitely got a great way of managing people. And then I'm very fortunate, and I mean my brother-in-law, john country. He's a, you know, long, long time experienced coach and we often share as well, you know. So, um, you know it's it's fascinating world, I think. Um. One thing I have never been scared of is is to is to give to to other coaches, whether you're professional or young, I think, um, because you just always remind yourself you were that starting out coach where you had you're inexperienced and there were people that passed on and gave during that time. So I've never forgotten that, and it's probably a strong point of mine is that if anyone ever reaches out, like nine times out of ten, I make myself available to pass on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, You're certainly excellent man. We talked earlier about how you gave a glowing reference for me at the Leicester Tigers to get me a contract way back in the day. So that's noted, mate, and I owe you a beer around that one, because it was a fantastic club.
Speaker 1:You've got a good memory, mate.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, yeah. Well, mate, it certainly shaped me a lot as a person, so it was wonderful. Hey, mate, I'll just finish up because I really appreciate your time. The last question today is the one I do ask to wrap up this conversation. It's the contrarian belief around what's one aspect of rugby that you strongly believe in, or believe that you suspect many of your peers might not, and I just like asking this question because I think all coaches have a couple of things up their sleeve where they're like I like this, or I believe in this, or this is kind of me, when it may not be mainstream or otherwise. So have you got something which you believe in?
Speaker 1:I reckon these two things relate to each other. I think the main thing is that ultimately, at the end of the day, it's my responsibility to create a program that connects everyone to the strategy, and therefore you've then got to be able to create communication in your environment that creates understanding, and I think if you can focus on that thread right now, then I think we will create better environments, better cultures, we'll have a better opportunity to win.
Speaker 2:Do you reckon people would disagree with that? Do you reckon a few people would be like no, no, you've got to get the game right first.
Speaker 1:Well, the strategy is the game. You've got your culture, you've got your leadership, you've got your game, and then you've got your mentality around winning. So if those four areas are the piece of the cake, then how do you create connection to that strategy or the strategies within those areas, and then how do you create the understanding?
Speaker 2:Communication Love it, mate, Love it, Love it, Mitch. I just want to say thank you very much for your time today, Super appreciated. Lots of gold nuggets in there and, mate, I've got this list of teams you've been with, mate and if I had to read it we'd be here another 10 minutes. I'll have to save that for the pre and post edit, mate, to get it all in there. But thank you for your time. I really enjoyed chatting today, mate, and go well with the English woman. I know you'll do wonders with them. Great bunch of people and I look forward to hearing how all your cultures go in that sphere.
Speaker 1:Thanks, Ben. Thanks for the opportunity to share.
Speaker 2:Here are my final three takeaways from a conversation with John. Number one don't get caught in the weeds. The weeds means the more you get bogged down by the admin, some of the detail, some of the erroneous things, the more you miss the bigger connections, the bigger part of the puzzle. So part of that is for you to start delegating better. Part of that is to be more aware when you feel like you're getting bogged down in the stuff that doesn't matter, take a breath, take a break and go do something that really matters, that really has lasting impact on the bigger picture, like having a coffee with someone in your team.
Speaker 2:Number two transactional versus transformational. John talked a lot about how, when he started up, he was always chasing outcome, falling into the outcome bubble. He didn't have a process or a methodology, he just wanted to win, and players were either aiding that desire or hindering it, and he treated them accordingly. In time, with experience, john learned that the more transformational he could be, the more he endeavoured to improve or transform his players instead of judging where they are at right now. The better coach he became and the better he became and, as a result, the better the team went.
Speaker 2:Number three everyone has a backstory. I thought it was an amazing story that John shared today about his time when he was attacked in South Africa, and it just reinforces the point that everybody has a backstory admittedly not as extreme as this, probably, but every single person in your team has some sort of baggage. It might not always be obvious, but it's always there. That's human. Everyone has another part of their life that's not here before you. Before you put labels and assertions on people and players, take time to peel back the layers, to give their behavior a lot more context. When you do this, when you take the time to just hear about what's going on and care about what's going on in other aspects of people's life, this simple act will make you a more aware coach and I can tell you it'll make you a well-respected person. We'll see you next time.