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Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Paul Galland: The Crusaders Pipeline; Shaping More than Rugby Players
Questions? Text Ben Herring direct.
What does it take to build the most successful rugby talent pipeline in the world? Paul Galland, Head Academy Manager for the Crusaders, pulls back the curtain on the organization that consistently produces more All Blacks than any other in New Zealand.
The secret starts with a seemingly simple philosophy: actions over words. When you walk into the Crusaders facility, you experience a culture where genuine care and authentic relationships form the foundation for everything else. Staff don't just instruct—they participate. Leaders don't just direct—they serve. The entire organization rallies around community causes because they understand rugby's power as a platform for something bigger.
Galland describes the academy experience as "a theme park" with various emotional rides that players must navigate. "Some go up, you feel crazy, sometimes you want to get off the bloody thing, but it's never linear," he explains. Rather than focusing solely on rugby skills, they begin by building deep personal connections through vulnerability exercises like sharing heroes, hardships, and highlights. This foundation allows for more meaningful coaching later: "If we get to know everyone on a deeper level, then we can have tougher conversations."
Most fascinating is their approach to talent identification. Beyond athletic ability, they observe character traits like work ethic ("time on ground"), coachability ("never miss twice"), and genuine application of feedback. Galland emphasizes playing the "infinite game" of development rather than focusing exclusively on finite seasonal outcomes. This philosophy has led to an astounding 80% conversion rate from academy to professional Crusaders.
Through personality testing, community engagement, and creating clear pathways while maintaining high standards, the Crusaders have mastered the art of developing not just exceptional rugby players, but exceptional people. Have you considered how these principles might transform your team or organization?
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It's kind of like a theme park, this academy, right. You come into the theme park and there's a whole heap of roller coasters and a whole heap of different rides that you get to go on and some go up and you go crazy. You feel a little bit sick sometimes, sometimes you want to get off the bloody thing, but at the end it's never linear. We get to know everyone on a deeper level Then, when it comes to the rugby stuff, then we can have tougher conversations or a bit more courageous conversations Coming in through the front doors. I think it's actions over words. Yeah, sometimes you're not even allowed on. You could be too short, right? Yeah, sometimes you're not even allowed on.
Speaker 2:You could be too short, right. Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating leadership and culture. I am Ben Herring and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Paul Gallant, the Crusaders' head academy manager, or, in my own words, the chief regeneration officer for New Zealand's rugby talent. Paul leads the pipeline for the Crusaders, one of the most successful franchises in rugby history, known for producing more all blacks than anyone else in New Zealand. Paul ensures the Crusaders systems and processes remain second to none. As both a New Zealand age group selector and talent ID specialist, he is dedicated to unearthing and nurturing the next generation of rugby stars in New Zealand. His mission is to uphold the Crusaders' legacy of excellence and prepare the future of New Zealand rugby. Here he is. Firstly, mate, I'd like to know what your definition of culture is and also how important it is to the Crusaders organization.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think culture is kind of something that underpins the Crusaders organization. I remember being in other roles and being outside looking in and wondering what the secret source always was Coming in through the front doors. I think it's actions over words. In different organizations you can have words plastered all over the show, but here it's definitely actions. You walk in the door and you're greeted by people straight away. Everyone's asking how your weekend was, literally just then as I walked through. That's what took me so long to get here, but it's great because people actually care.
Speaker 1:And then I think it goes from the players to the staff. The staff jump in on activities and it's definitely actions over words and a few things that the organisation does around. You know doing stuff outside of rugby. So organisations, different learning adventures that they do in the community, so our culture and leadership program that they do. They do, um, a fun, a long run for child cancer next week. So all of that stuff there, I guess brings a sense of belonging. And the crusaders have gone through adversity over the last few years, whether it be, you know, situations within the community and the earthquakes, and I think in a weird way it's kind of brought them together a little bit so in a long way of putting it, I think it's actions over words is a big part of the culture here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and part of your role is with running the head of the academy is making sure that the next wave are coming through. How are you trying to instill the cultural values for the Crusaders?
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, actually just recently we went on a first year camp and we took a whole heap of our first years from both our Tasman site and our Christchurch site up into Castle Hill and we just talked a lot around the people and there was no rugby context whatsoever, but it was around the things that they'll encounter throughout their time.
Speaker 1:It's the people and there was no rugby context whatsoever, but it was around the things that they'll encounter throughout their time.
Speaker 1:It's the people that have gone before them, it's, um, the actions that you do in the academy and the standards that you you want to set, not so much how we want to see the staff obviously we help that but it's the standards they want to do and it's also aligning the, the players or the young men, mentors, and that may be ex-players, it may be current players We've got ex-players in the coaching setup that become sort of sounding boards for some of these academy boys and I think it's that continual progress of the academy.
Speaker 1:As they come through year one, two, three, they get to dip their toes on the field, they get to dip their toes in the organisation. So it's really cool and that camp sort of sets the tone for the start of the year with a lot of these young men that come into the program, and we actually started it with a little bit of three things that we talked about. It was a hero highlight or hardship and it was a real vulnerability piece. And if we get to know the people and the players within our system well, then we get to know the people and the players within our system well, then we get to help push them and drive them to wherever they want to get, to the best that we can. And I think that's been a big part of the academy and it's gone on before me. I'm just sort of helping guide that process, but it's a huge part of our academy.
Speaker 2:When you said the Hero Hardship highlight. What does that look like in reality?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So for us as staff, we had to stand up in front of the group and there was 35 of us there, including staff had to get up and speak about a hero to us, hardship that we've encountered and a highlight that we've had, and it kind of sometimes with the events in life, they all link together in some weird way.
Speaker 1:But for us to stand up and show vulnerability, it gave the players the ability to do the same, and then we get to see that we're not just here for rugby, we're here to grow young men, we're here to help, mentor them in whatever journey that is. And the reason why I say that is because it's kind of like a theme park, this academy, right, you come into the theme park and there's a whole heap of roller coasters and a whole heap of different rides that you get to go on and some go up, you go crazy, you feel a little bit sick sometimes, sometimes you want to get off the bloody thing, but at the end it's never linear and it's just. It's a cool process. So if we can show them vulnerability and give them courage to get on the roller coasters and whatever that may look like in their journey, then we're doing our job, and that's what I quite like about it, and that's, I guess, how we set them up for success within the organization.
Speaker 2:So where does the rugby fit? Where does the externalise of rugby fit? Is it after that stuff? Where does it fit? And how do you rank that stuff over? How to pass well, how to tackle well?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess it's not even a ranking, it's just part of our process. So if we get to know everyone on a deeper level, then when it comes to the rugby stuff, then we can have tougher conversations or a bit more courageous conversations, and the rugby fits in right now. So, day one today with our full academy'll hit the grass, we'll hit the gym, we've got unit sessions, we've got skill sessions all throughout the week and that's structured within our calendar. But the touch points throughout the week and whether that's, you know, our pdm putting sessions in, whether that's mental skills but genuine interactions, I think is where we get the cornerstone of the academy and the care piece that is talked about quite a bit here. So, yeah, the rugby's structured in all the time, but this if we don't do this stuff, then we're not going to be able to build the relationship to give them courage and then, and is that a big part of your job, making sure that that side of things is always front and center?
Speaker 1:absolutely. I, like my rugby knowledge is well below our awesome coaches that are out on the grass. My job is to help facilitate and bring everyone together and get everyone to enjoy it, and that's the big thing that we forget, right? We're in high performance sport and, yes, there's a finite game when we're playing, but I'm playing the infinite game and my job is to continually keep them, to grow and and manage people and to get people to realize that everyone's got strengths. So that's, I guess, the role that I played. So it's not so much I'm out doing a skip everyone's got their strengths right but that's the role of the academy manager is to bring everyone together to provide the best theme park experience you can love it.
Speaker 2:And what's the? The Infinite Game is that sort of Simon Sinek? I've heard him talk about that. Is that the reference? And what does that mean? Your running for Infinite Game, yeah it is One of my many road trips.
Speaker 1:I've jumped the audio books and I really like that one, because we talk about, you know, seasons out here, whether it's you know's the top Crusaders team, that can be finite. Right, we've got a result and we're playing for a result, but the infinite game means that we're constantly trying to get mastery. And I really like that because within an academy system, you get into multiple campaigns. They've got club, they've got rep, they drop into Crusaders, they drop into different programs, and it's my job to help them be ready for what's ever thrown at them and it's my job to help give them courage. And it takes ups and downs and all over the show, but as an academy manager, you need to be there and there's multiple different things that I've done with different academy lads where they've needed different support or um, you know, going to play golf, going to have coffee, but my job is to be there as a mentor, um. So that's sort of, in a long way, how that sort of comes together. It's a constant journey that's great.
Speaker 2:And just talking about that journey, mate, what is it? Because the crusaders um the the way the crusaders develop players is second to none. Having been in there myself and seen how it rolls, and you just look at the turnover from guys that make the academy to go on to be Crusaders and all that it's just humongous. What does it look like when a guy comes into the Crusaders academy? What does it look like on a daily basis and what's their plan for the season, the year? What's the pathway look like for your players that come in the academy? What does it look like from your point of view?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a good question because it's so varied. A lot of the guys come in so their aspirations in their first year is to try and prep that Crusader under 20s. Right, if you're a year young and you can get into that crusader 20s, that's great. But not everyone can do that. And some guys come in and will just go academy, into club rugby, and that's fine too. Some will go into colts rugby, and that's fine too.
Speaker 1:But within, I guess, if we're talking about pathway, their aspirations is their rep program. So it can be Tasman or Canterbury 19s, it can be Crusader 20s, it can be Crusaders Development, it can be National Development Contracts out there, and that all comes at different stages. We've got a first year that's on a National Development Contract, which we haven't done before too, and it all depends on depth charts and availability and where they're seen on the national radar as well. But for them to have multiple touch points within those rep programs and within club and then have a sort of get out on the grass with the top team in their second and third year, like that's sort of what they're aiming for. But again, I think if we're going to talk to them about pathway, we're playing a finite game.
Speaker 1:We talk about opportunities. We're playing an infinite game and I think that's the most important thing to talk to them about, because if we play a finite game with them and say, look, you need to have this to be selected, they'll put all their eggs in that basket. And we're dealing with Gen Z, right, and it's such a different generation and different way they work and it's awesome because they're such curious learners. But they put so much pressure on themselves and we have seen players drop out of the program and that's not what we want. We want them to stay in the game. We want them to keep pushing that long-term athlete development. So that's a big part of, I guess, how I see the academy.
Speaker 2:That's great mate. And why are they dropping out? Is it the stresses that are getting to them?
Speaker 1:Yes, some players yeah, and it's not like players all over the country of this generation are finding that, because professionalism probably isn't for everyone. It can be quite tough at times. Being a professional is not easy, as you know, ben. It can be quite cutthroat right and there's a lot of pressures and whether that's selection, whether that's injury. So I think that we have to prepare them the best that we can so that when they strike their perceived diversity, that they can push through that. And you know we're not going to be able to do that with everyone. Everyone's so different and players have dropped out, but I guess we take good pride in trying to keep them in the game.
Speaker 2:And I guess that comes back to your infinite game where you're preparing for opportunities rather than like finite. You've got to make this team, we've got to do X, y and Z. It's like if you're preparing just to be able to take opportunities. That feels like a more long-term outlook for life, right, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1:And it's using examples because if we start to say that they'll go, oh, yeah, right, good on you. Yeah, thanks for patting me on the back. But it's using examples. Like you know, we got Ethan Blackadder, didn't even play first 15, was in the second 15, then went and played club rugby, did two over in the country because he wanted to find the love, and then came into the academy, then came into. So that's why he's, you know, making All Blacks at a later date.
Speaker 1:But it's not the linear pathway that they perceive. Georgie Bauerauer, for example, who's with us, you know he made his npc debut. Then was three years then to get the call back in. Then just got called in up here for a injury replacement. A year later he was in the abs, yeah. So you know, being persistent, I think I think, is key. We use the word resilience a lot. Right, we want to build resilience in a lot of these players, but I think the word persistent is probably better because it's got more of a moving forward rather than you've got to take a step back to go forward. So maybe language is part of it too.
Speaker 2:It's funny. I've had a couple of conversations around the word persistent as opposed to consistent. But, like, consistent sort of just suggests something's just flat where persistence there's an edge to it. But it's fantastic that you say persistence over resilience because you're not taking a backward step. I think that's a cool rephrase of words and at the Crusaders words are massive, aren't they, paul? Like when I've come into the Crusaders environment, environment, I've just been blown away by the fact that the whole culture, everyone, speaks the same language, even the terminology, the reference points, the common language it's, it's like it's, it's part of the fabric, of the, of the you, of the thing you're weaving. Is that something which is consciously done in your environment, and does it start with the academy?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think it starts at the top right, our CEO and GMs like Colin and Gus. There's bigger things than rugby, and I go back to the point before about the charities they support. That's where the language comes from, and I know that past coaches have brought in different languages as well, but that care and connection thing is massive here and you can't and I go back to actions over words. We say these words, but the actions are a huge charity event where they're trying to raise hundreds of thousands of dollars for children's cancer. You're going to buy into the words and the fabric when that's the thing you're supporting, right, because everyone's being touched by cancer, or how cruel is it that that's happening? So I guess, emotionally getting tied in, and then the language follows and that's what makes it bigger than just rugby, and I think that's so important, right, because we get so wound up in the rugby side and it's awesome and that's what gives us everything, but with people, and that's where the language comes in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's incredible, mate, and do you reckon that when you focus on that side of stuff, you get a direct correlation to performance on field?
Speaker 1:Oh, 100%, and I guess their previous success and I wasn't part of it then, but it sort of speaks for itself, right? You probably listen to podcasts with some of the players that have been in the organization and they've all got the same language and they've all got the same actions and they're the ones that have gone on to be great ABs or you know great, great footy players, but they're great people too. The things that they do outside of rugby is massive. We just got shown a video the other day of Sebi Reese going to one of the cancer wards for one of the young girls and then, unfortunately, she passed away and he did the run for her and wrote that on his wrist and he spoke about her on the TV. He hadn't met her before going into the ward.
Speaker 1:So I watched that video here at one of the team meetings and you start to get the I don't know. You get a little bit emotional yourself because that is what the world's all about. Right, we've got a platform here that we can help. You know, we've got a platform where there's performance, but we've got a platform that can help people too. And I don't know, once you get in here, you kind of feel part of it and that's where the language comes from.
Speaker 2:Hmm, a platform for something bigger. Yeah, yeah, that's cool and that's a huge part of the ethos of the crusaders, isn't it using what they're good at to support a bigger community?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, and they've been doing that for a long time, right, I don't I wasn't here when the earthquakes, um were here and they didn't get to play a home game at all but I guess, when they come back after just narrowly losing to the reds in that final, after playing in london austral over the show South Africa, the people that were at the airport and I've seen a video of this the people that were at the airport were so thrilled that they did so well in the current circumstances. It provided the community with a real push and something positive on something, because when chaos is all around you, you look for things and you gravitate to things that are going to give you hope, and that kind of gave some people in the community hope throughout that time with a bit of normalization. So, yeah, it's definitely bigger than the game and I think you know the culture of that comes from that, the culture of it.
Speaker 2:That's awesome, mate. It's a lovely testament to an organization where that's your pillar or that's the foundation. It makes you proud Like I was just hearing it here it makes you want to be part of that and certainly when you're walking through the doors you can feel it immediately through the language and interactions that you talked about, like that action over words. You feel it and then that creates a place where people want to be with. People want to be and talking about that, paul, a big part of your role is also getting young players to the organization as like a recruitment, and the Crusaders are very good at this, actually IDing great young players from a really early age.
Speaker 2:Can you give a little bit of insight to some of the things you're looking for, because I know you're not just looking for how good they are at rugby. You've got a bit of a checklist right of what's their character like? Are they going to fit into this culture? Would you be able to sort of just expand on sort of that criteria of what the Crusaders do and what's important when they're selecting younger players that they potentially see as future Crusaders?
Speaker 1:they're selecting younger players that they potentially see as future crusaders. Yeah, it's a. There's a bit of an art to it. I'm still figuring it out as well.
Speaker 1:And since coming back to new zealand after living overseas like learning a lot from the new zealand um selection side of stuff with the, the 20s and the 18th new zealand schools sorry, and I change every year. Like the things you pick up in conversations, the people that you meet. You start to change some of your philosophies around TID not all the time, but the key things stay the same and talent stands out. You can see a talented player and you're like, wow, okay, that person's got talent and whether that's some X factor or a superpower or just a beast, you know physical beast, you can start to see that. And then we talk about crusader DNA. So will they fit into how we play? Will they fit into the organization?
Speaker 1:Then it's chatting to different people around the community and different people that we've got in here to sort of find out a little bit more about the person. And then the things that I picked up through the New Zealand cycle too is you know, we start to look at characteristics and we've got a checklist that we go through around that. You know performance characteristics, behavioral characteristics, but a lot of it comes from conversations that you have from outside the organization. So, whether that's meeting them with their parents, you start to get a feel for who they might be, talking to sports coordinators or coaches, and you know there's no. Again, there's probably no secret sauce, right, it's actually finding out who they are and then seeing how that talent matches up with what we want here at the Crusaders. So, without giving too much away I don't want to give too much away because I'm so without giving too much away.
Speaker 1:I don't want to give too much away.
Speaker 2:I'm sure a lot of organizations will be listening very carefully about how you're selecting.
Speaker 1:But yeah, it's the same with anything right Like the longer you're in a job, the more things you pick up, more tools you pick up. But there is definitely performance and behavioral things that you look for outside of their skill ability. It's quite funny too. You'll get a lot of people in the in the public and I've had that before in different roles is why didn't you pick such and such or why is this person not in there? And you know sometimes you get it wrong, right, like that's and that's the nature of it. But sometimes you get it right and there's characteristics and that the people that you didn't pick. You can see that coming through later on in the journey and you're like well, I did make the right call, or sometimes I didn't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what would be some of the big ones, though without giving away your own really specifically, you talked about performance characteristics. So you have your crusader's DNA. Are they going to fit with us? So then you have your performance characteristics. What sort of it? Just loosely. What are some of those? What are we talking?
Speaker 1:Well, you start to look at work ethic's a big one, right? You want people that are going to work in your team. So time on ground? Are they laying on the ground or do they get up and go look for their next action? That's a big one, because that doesn't even take skill.
Speaker 2:So you're looking at. So when you're reviewing a game from a school that you might be looking at a player, you'll specifically watch how quickly he gets off the ground, for example.
Speaker 1:Absolutely so. If you took a backspripe and there are multiple actions, so are they making a tackle? Do they roll over to the short side to get a breather or do they get back up and fill back in a line and communicate? What are they doing around? How they're communicating? One and then time on ground and then speed to set, and these are all common phrases that we use, right, but it's actually watching them. And again, it's actions over words. Someone can say speed to set or my man, but they could be miles off it.
Speaker 2:And do you think that that's sort of like characteristic, like you go if someone's outstanding at that, you go. Yep, in that regard he fits our mold. So that's a tick on that box and then there's a whole lot of other boxes. But what happens if they're not? Is there a bit where you just go, no, or do you go? Is there another step to that? Can we work with them?
Speaker 1:Yeah, there is, and I think, what's coachable, what's not. So maybe time on ground they are a little bit slow, but are they actually putting in effort to get there? Are they trapped? Are they just a little bit unfit? Because you know we're talking about teenagers, you know they go through such a different cycle. I think you know a lot of the time we look at TID as they've got to be the ultimate professional, or will they play Super Rugby now? That's 17. I know it was when I was 17. Awful.
Speaker 2:Did you have a moustache at 17? Has that gone right through?
Speaker 1:No, I didn't. I couldn't even grow one until I was 25. But that was the thing. I was terrible because I probably wasn't aware of what the things that I needed to. So then, if you're giving feedback to the players, are they applying that feedback? So, if you look at a player and maybe they're not working to where you want them to, is it because of lack of knowledge or is it lack of effort and the other questions you've got to ask the coaches? You've got to ask yourself, and if you give them feedback, is there change? Because I think there's a real key in never missing twice. What do you mean by that? So if they miss once, that's fine, they'll get feedback, but once the feedback's given to them, do they apply it? If they, missed twice.
Speaker 2:Well then, you've got to kind of question why.
Speaker 1:What would be some of the reasons why that might happen? As a teenager, sometimes you think that you know everything. I thought I did. I knew nothing. So that, like the ability to take on information, to take on feedback, to be a curious learner, are real key things that you start to look at. So if they go, yes, okay, great, thanks for the feedback and they apply it, geez, you've got a champion on your hands here, because you know that they want to work. But if you've got someone that goes, yeah, yeah, good on you, mate, and then they do the same thing time and time again, well, are they coachable?
Speaker 2:What's the Crusader's policy on? If that happens, what can the environment do to help them? Have you had many examples where you've had to go? This isn't going to work. You're out, or is that the very last?
Speaker 1:straw yeah, I have. In a previous role I've had that situation, but that was probably more behavioral characteristics rather than performance. Was okay on the field, but off field was just never on time, never turning up, never communicating, given feedback, given sort of sort of standards and guidelines. But then even some of their behaviors you know out in social world were very poor choices as well. So I have had a player that we've had to um ask to leave the academy. It's not nice because you, you, you hope that you, everything that you can contribute and help with that, you're doing your best and sometimes you take it a little bit personally like sheesh, did I not get that right? But sometimes you just can't help everyone and it kind of, you know, it hurts a little bit when that happens. You're like man, is that on me? But at the end of the day they got choices and that was something someone said that to me. It's their choice and I was like, okay, well, that's fair. So that's where the never miss twice comes from.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I guess for an organization with such rich culture and expectations that you're representing a wider thing, you almost can't afford to have people that are not going to buy into that way of thinking right or behaving. Because it's one person can disrupt the whole barrel of karma.
Speaker 1:Definitely, and we talk about who we're representing when we're in the academy, we're not just representing the logo on our chest, but we're representing our family and our friends and our teammates, and so to give them a bigger picture and give a bit more of an impact, that's something that they need to be aware of the players because you make a rep team right, You've got a badge on your chest, whether that's Crusaders, Canterbury, Tasman. So not only for yourself, selfishly, do you want to go well and be respectable, but it's also for everyone else that cares for you and is hoping that you do well. So it's that big perspective piece, I think is something that we try and install in the academy and that starts from just turning up on time, communicating well, being a good person, helping people when they need it. Well, being a good person, helping people when they need it.
Speaker 2:Do you have initiatives that you've put in to help grow better people at a young age? It's like when you come into the academy. Here's some things that you do to become better.
Speaker 1:Anything specific, or is it? I think it's just more about them being in the environment, right like um. As staff, we try to jump into as many things as possible, um, and give them the opportunity to learn off us, because if we get a criteria, they're trying to learn a whole heap of things as well. We've got standards and expectations around it, but if we've got all these other things, then they need to learn um, and so, as staff, we need to jump in and show that we're willing to do that too, and I think that's where that action before words comes in. So it's not so much a criteria, it's how do they learn as they go?
Speaker 1:Again, we're dealing with 17, 18 year old young men. It's going to take a couple of blips in the radar to sort of come on track. So, for example, up at Castle Hewitt camp the other day day, I jumped in on the rope with these guys. We ran six or seven k through the bush holding kettlebells and battle ropes, and yeah, it's tough. I'm 14, these guys are 19. I was heaving up that hill, but again showing that if we can put ourselves through something, then so can they. And that's where that, you know, this is where it all weaves together.
Speaker 1:There's stuff like that, like I took a young man to a. He was going through a tough time and we went to like a Buddhist church Ah, yep, yeah. So we went there because he was wanting to explore what that may look like around mindfulness and peace and well out of my comfort zone. But if I can turn up and take him there on a Sunday and be there to support him, well, then we're building trust, and so I think that's key. Like if we can build trust with our players, then the standards, everything starts to look after itself. If we can put ourselves through a bit of hurt locker, then they look up to us. And Aaron Webb, who's come before me, he's set a huge sort of stand. I'm not going to get to that. He ran double marathons. He's run 100K for charity. I'm like I'll do him a small bit, but people within the organization are constantly doing that and then that flows through and I think that's what's quite cool about it.
Speaker 2:It does seem like a very connected organisation and what you said there is that there's this culture from the wider organisation that everyone's part of it. So it's not just coaches and managers and marketers standing in the office just watching the guys run. Everyone's mucking in as such, even to the point where the old boys are coming back to mentor and that side of things. It seems like it's such a connected group and like you know it when you walk into it. But that really is the Crusaders' DNA, isn't it? Just one connected group?
Speaker 1:Yeah, we had our induction the other night where we get all the first years come in and we do a presentation and ryan frotty gets up and gives him, you know, talks a little bit about his journey and then shakes their hand and gives him their jersey. He's, he played last year and it's so awesome to have him come and you know, the players can see that there is sort of that connection throughout the organization. So I think that's super important and you know, staff within the organization are out doing the long run and running pbs and and doing everything that they can. And yeah, it just it's.
Speaker 2:Sometimes it's quite hard to explain, um, what it means in here for a lot of people and I guess a question which I'd be interested in like last year was a big year for the crusaders, because it was an unusual year in which performance had dipped compared to a hugely successful period how did the when the performance piece wasn't quite there, how did the whole organisation respond to that and how did you come together around that? Because I can imagine there would have been some very clear conversations around what we are and what we're going to do from here. How did that unfold?
Speaker 1:Well, I guess it's not the first time, right, that, when we're playing professional sport, that things haven't gone right and you've just got to look back to the very first Super Rugby. Well, I guess it's not the first time, right, when we're playing professional sport, things haven't gone right and you just got to look back to the very first Super Rugby. Was it 1990? What was the first year? 98? I think.
Speaker 1:Somewhere around there Crusaders come dead last. They come dead last and then they build themselves up and then become what they are and there's always going to be a blip in the radar at times, you know, when you've got change of guard sometimes or just trying to build consistency. But I think that the best thing that they did was go back to that infinite game. You know it was a finite season, but why are we here? All the good things that we're doing out in the community, the people in the organisation, we will be right, we will be fine, and it's then taking the things that you've learnt and putting some things into place and changing a few things.
Speaker 1:So it wasn't an alarm bell, as much as you know. Sometimes the media drums it up and you know people out there sort of say it's a crisis. It's not. We're still dealing with a whole heap of awesome young men that are going to take and you know, take the field the following year, that are going to continue to grow, and we've got a really good group of young men coming through that have represented New Zealand in 20s, that have just gone into the All Blacks 15. There's probably no need to hit the alarm bell.
Speaker 2:And when you're looking at guys coming through, do you have a good sniff of how good you're going to go in future seasons, knowing what you know, with the guys coming through? Do you, do you know, like do you have a good sniff of how good you're going to go in future seasons, knowing what you know, with the players coming through?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah. Well, you know you start to look off depth charts and you look at where some of these guys are coming through and you know you get some of these guys in the academy and you're like he's going to make it straight away, sometimes with justisms skill. Then you're like, well, he's going to be special and it'll take time, right Like he might come in and get some small minutes or he might just be, you know, hold tackle bags for that first year. But you know deep down that he's got something in him to be able to make it. And you're starting to see some of these young fellas come through now In that All Black 15, a few of those young boys are knocking on that door that have been in that 20s program.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, you do get a gut feel with some of them yeah, and it's probably pretty cool them being around the environment when it's not succeeding. It gives them sort of a more realistic understanding what could and couldn't happen. Like that, roller coaster is not always a thrill ride. Sometimes you're not loving it, so they're getting used to the full spectrum of emotions and feelings around being a professional rugby player.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sometimes you're not even allowed on. You could be too short, right? Some of them might just sit on the sidelines all year and might feel sometimes unjust, but I guess it's getting them to understand that it's a big picture.
Speaker 2:Well, I guess that's a good question. What is the conversion rate do you work towards In an academy space that you say roughly 50% will progress to be full Crusaders? What's the number? Is there anything there?
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I guess we've got an aim. We try and aim for 80% that have come through our academies. That's a very good stat, isn't it? Yeah, and that's what we're aiming for and that's why that there's such a buy-in to all these programs. If it was just a program on the side that we didn't really care about, it wouldn't be that. But it's not. It's a program that is sort of the backbone of the organization, because a lot of 80% well, hopefully 80% sometimes it varies a little bit depending on season to season injuries et cetera, but that's. You know, all these guys have come through understanding the same things through the academy, and you know Aaron Webb's done an awesome job over the last 12 years of being able to shape the environment and then these guys have come through and been so successful.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it's a big old beast and you're talking about a connected environment. Like the head coach of the Crusaders whoever that is has a big input with you, the academy manager, A lot of professional teams. The academy is almost like a byproduct, like you're over there just go do your thing and the head coach of the main team doesn't actually have a whole lot of knowledge of who's coming into that. But crusaders is very connected in that the head coaches have a. They chat to you, or previously aaron, just to make sure who's coming through. We've got the right person. Are they fitting what we need? How's the debt chart looking? So it's a very connected organisation in that regard, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and super connected with our provincial unions as well, so being the only franchise that has co-operated with the PU. So we've got a Crusaders Tasman Academy and we've got a Crusaders Canterbury Academy, so there's a link right through there. So you know, a lot of guys have to come through, got to play NPC before we even get into super. But having them come through our pathways and having two provincial unions on board gives us such a wider sort of net. But it's also then a lot of the boys in our regions actually see it's the first time I'm probably going to say linear pathway. They can see the pathway, so they want to stay within the regions.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because it's a very clear pathway and you also offer that little bit of exposure. That's part of the academy. Some academies it's very separate and it's only when you make the squad that you're actually integrated in. But having seen it myself Fuxada young guys are constantly integrated with mentors, with senior guys coming back chatting to them exposures, trainings, at a really early point in their academy career, correct, yeah, and I think the under 20s program's been quite cool in that regard too.
Speaker 1:So we have camps in both regions to connect back to our regions. But then when everyone comes to Christchurch, we can see the team train and watch how that operates, go into the team room and sort of feel it, and that's a big part of that too. So, yeah, I think the connection with provincial unions is key and showing the pathway and having people talk to them. Like you know, some of these boys will talk to Davey Havili, you know, over these coming weeks and he's just been named captain and how cool he's an All Black, he's a Crusader. So being able to talk to people like that, who plays provincial rugby, like it's awesome. So having the players be able to connect with them. So that's why it's so important having both provincial unions right. So a lot of these players go back to either Tasman or Canterbury and then these young academy guys that are on these development contracts are then actually training with them and then that sets them up for their super and their pre-seasons. So I think that's quite cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, their pre-seasons. So I think that's quite cool. Yeah, yeah, it's very cool. It's, it's. I think it's like something which is a massive part of crusaders culture. That's such a connected infrastructure yeah, yeah, I'd agree.
Speaker 1:It's um, like I said before, it's sometimes quite hard to put your finger on certain things, and you know we're talking about culture here, but it's so many different things that go into it, um, and it's not just one. It's not here, but it's so many different things that go into it, and it's not just one. It's not just our connection, it's not just the staff, it's not just the actions, it's everything, the little pieces that come into building that culture of the organization. And it's only something that I'm still learning. I've been in the organization since 2021. And now in this role this year, in 2025,'s still things that I'm learning and I'm like, oh, wow, okay, that that makes sense.
Speaker 2:I wondered how that worked do you feel pressure, like like in the role you're in, which is a very important role for the crusaders is. Do you feel a bit of pressure and the leadership aspect of that running that program?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, I think you do. But it also comes with a level of excitement too. Um, you know it's. It's funny sometimes how it all works out right like I I grew up on in hokutika and you know, you're in a small west coast town and you didn't really I didn't never really knew what the hell I was going to do post school. I just did some sport and traveled the world. And then you come in here and you're like how the hell did I get here? What's happening? Then it's like it's not imposter syndrome, but it's kind of like you, kind of okay, I've got to back myself here, because if I don't, everyone else has. I've got a job. I don't know how, but I've got it. So so there's a level of pressure, yeah, and definitely. But we've got so many good staff here, like when I first, they're just doing their thing and nailing that I'm just someone here that helps chat and guide and maybe mentor. So it's the whole heap of people that takes the pressure off and gives you the excitement, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:How would you define the way you lead that organization? Or you're part of that organization, or you're part of that organisation.
Speaker 1:It's funny because we do these different personality tests right. I've done some about the birds there's a peacock, a dove, an owl and a hawk and they talk about how these bird traits and how you fit into those and what situation, under pressure, you fall into these categories and you do other ones around different coloured dots yellow, red and blue and purple and I thought that I was one way. I thought, oh yeah, pretty good, but I was completely the opposite. So my leadership now getting an understanding of who I am and then trying to run with it as a strength. And so, for example, I'm a purple dot, which means that quite creative and come up with all these ideas but very rarely finish them, and I know that. So it's getting people to help finish all the bits and pieces and I'll come up with the ideas.
Speaker 1:Or with the birds, I thought I was kind of like an owl, sort of listen a little bit, but also, um, probably a hawk, under pressure, like you have to make a decision, do it, or let's rip in and just figure out what happens. But it turns out I'm a peacock, so it's feathers and look at me, which I probably are now looking at him like, oh yeah, you are a peacock, but also a little bit of a hawk as well. To use that, rip in and just get things done and try and work out whatever happens happens. So, yeah, to narrow it down to one type of leadership, I'm I'm unsure, but, um, yeah, I've got a couple words that, like, I guess, try to be genuine as a leader and try to be trustworthy as a leader, and then, whatever decisions you make or others make, at least you know that you're being genuine and that you're trustworthy. So I think they're the kind of things that, if I was to try and I don't know, put words to leadership and then, I guess, lastly, maybe fun.
Speaker 2:It has to have an element of.
Speaker 1:I've got the worst jokes, take the mickey out of a whole heap of people and it comes back to bite me in the bum sometimes too, because when we jump into a drill they'll line me right up. But it's also having fun is massive because we're playing a sport. At the end of the day, you're playing with your mates and you're in an academy with all your mates, so that's something that I think is super important academy with all your mates.
Speaker 2:So you know that's something that I think is super important. Mate I, I'm really intrigued because I've heard the crusaders that comes back a lot around. That personality testing that that's done there with the dots or the owls and the animals it it's. Is that a constant thing? Because the people are so important that the organization wants everyone to just understand those aspects of themselves and each other a little bit better? Is that why those personality testing, that testing is done on staff and players to such a level? Because I don't believe it's done. I've never seen it done to the level it's done at Crusaders and any other organization for rugby.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a good question, because I don't know who brought it in, but I guess it's the biggest thing that you can get from it as a self-awareness piece, right, the more that you get to know yourself, the better that you can do one your job or, if you're in a leadership position that you can lead, because you've got to be able to. You know there's that old saying you're going to lead yourself before others. So I think gaining self-awareness of yourself will give you an insight on, then, how to interact with others, because everyone's so different and if you just take your one bullish way of trying to interact or communicate or build relationships not everyone's like that so to get an understanding of yourself and an understanding of others, you get such a better work dynamic or better, I guess, in the academy a better operating dynamic. So I think that's the importance of it and that's why it's done. But yeah, there's a real sort of passion for it here, which is cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's really cool. And just for me personally, I've done those tests with me and my wife, for example, and what I loved was the benefit was, when a little bit of pressure comes on, where your sort of default pattern lies. And the example we loved because we did this testing together and the outcome was my wife's very direct needs to know the quickest way to somewhere A to B. I'm a bit more laid back and creative and I'm happy to enjoy the journey in a car ride, but the facilitator who facilitated said that's all fine, but where the pressure point's going to come is when you both jump in the car together and she's going to be wanting to go to A to B, the quickest route, and you don't care. So you're just going whichever way and enjoying the journey and there's going to be friction there because she's sitting there going this is not the quickest way and I don't know why she's getting antsy because I'm just driving and going whichever ways.
Speaker 2:I feel fancy at the time. So the the learning that we had around this was when I get in the car I just say, hey, look, which way do you want to go? And she'll say can we go that way? Because it's quickest and because I don't care, I go fine, and then we avoid that little bit of comfort and it's just. That's a simple example of the benefit.
Speaker 2:I think of those personality tests, but it's the same in a rugby context where you might have an alpha that wants to just know this is the way we have to do it and this is the best way. And you might have someone a little bit more looser that's like no, we'll just whatever. Whatever gets us there's fine, and I think that's the benefit of doing that as an organization is to make sure that we're just privy and aware of the way others are thinking, because it helps you get your communication better. And a simple what do you want to do? Sometimes that question can alleviate all sorts of tension and pressure and have you get them paddling in the same direction better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's awesome. How did the car ride end up in that first one, Mate? It was a dream.
Speaker 2:It was a dream, what a dream. But those two things, I think, for coaches particularly to understand yourself and where you go to as your default is an enlightening experience. It really is. Where do you go to when you start losing? What's your default pattern? And I think that's a cool one to understand about yourself and be aware of it, because you might not even be aware that every time you lose a game, you want the team to be in there, training harder and doing more, because that's what you would do, because you're that personality type. However, the bulk of the team may not be that at all, so they're resisting and they're cramming that tension and edge and they're not loving it, and hence you might go down a downward spiral if you go that way. And just that awareness is cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's really hard to answer those questions and to put yourself under pressure, because we answer those questions right and you probably start to answer them how you think that you are or how you want to be, but you have to answer the questions around how you're probably at your worst, so you actually get a true indication of who you are. Because it was quite funny, we were up at a New Zealand rugby team building exercise outside of Wellington and they put a time limit on this exercise and we had all these drums and planks that we had to try and get to the other end and there were people just mucking around and I was like no, we've got no time for this. Quickly. This here, this here, this here. Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. We got three quarters of the way through and then we're stuck. I was like rats, I gotta call it. All the way back and the person that was taking the course was observing and I was just like what? And afterwards she goes oh, how did you find that? I was like, yeah, good, these people on the side, though what the hell were they doing? Mucking around, and she goes no well, something that you probably need to do is listen. I was like um rats, I, that's what. That's what you been telling me for 30 or 40 odd years, until I heard that from someone else and Dad probably said I told you so is that again? It's that peacock.
Speaker 1:I wanted it to be my idea, but I didn't know that. I just wanted to get there the quickest, so I was just kind of taking charge. There was a little bit of hawk in there, but it was also a little bit of peacock, because I wanted to. Maybe I wanted it to be my idea, I'm unsure. I wanted to win and so when pressure came on, I went to default pattern. You people that are just talking, you've got no idea, let's hurry up. So it was kind of real good sort of I actually have to step back and listen. So even though I like to be creative, it doesn't always have to be my idea. I like to be in charge under pressure, but it doesn't need to be me that needs to be in charge. I need to just feel like I'm contributing. So I guess understanding yourself in those situations has been massive and I don't think if I'm one type of leader. I think I'm evolving as a leader.
Speaker 2:And one thing which has struck me in this conversation, paul, is that you're very open about sharing some of these stuff, and that's not always in all cultures and societies something which is done, but in the Crusaders, and maybe even, to a degree, a lot of New Zealandaland teams, the the concept of just sharing your thoughts, your concepts, your ideas is actually really commonplace. Do you see that as a leadership thing, as a as a interesting part of the psyche of the crusaders?
Speaker 1:because I found it very open around sharing things yeah, I think, like shared knowledge is always knowledge gained right, because there's different areas, people have got different strengths and, like the organization started a program that you know they opened some of their, their, their knowledge to the world and you know you can go on this course and and take a whole heap of things in around you know what the organization is, sort of underpins. I think that's awesome, right. Like we're all on this learning journey together. There's no right and wrong and there's things that we'll do that are good and there's things that we'll do that probably aren't that great. But the more that we learn from others, then the better that we can be in any given situation. And that's what I reckon in different organisations that I've been in and in different organizations that I've been in the more that we share, the better the outcome. So, yeah, I think that that's something that they've done but also grown at the same time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's really prominent, I think.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we get a lot of coaches from around the world. We've got an international academy and coaches courses, that coaches come in and get to be with the team right for a couple of weeks and go to everything meetings, everything like that. And you know, if we were really secretive that wouldn't work. But then that there we get knowledge off them. You know you've got different organisations coming in and different rugby league teams coming in and AFL teams coming in.
Speaker 2:And then that there strengthens us too, because we learn off them. That's right, and I guess you can equate it to like a family, household, mate. And if you never have anyone around, your kids aren't exposed to different people, you're just exposed to me. So that could be a bad draw, right, if I'm the only influence around the kids at the dinner table. But the more we've found we've bring friends in from different places of our lives from university or school or work or rugby, and we have them around for dinner on pretty regular occasions.
Speaker 2:The kids get exposure to a whole different way of thinking as well. So we're opening our home and what we're getting for us as a family is just exposure to different stuff and the kids are growing just by being around interesting and different people semi-regularly. And I guess that's the same with rugby organizations In fact any organizations the more. If you're just insular and tight and everything's a secret and nothing's getting in or out, you're going to become very insular and you're not going to grow as quickly as if you get that thing, that exposure to different people. But you can only get that exposure if you're prepared to give a little bit in the first place yourself and share what you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. Well, you're a product of your environment, right? Sometimes, when you feel like you're in a toxic environment, your behaviors change, and you don't want them to, and sometimes you have to take a step back and go oh, this is not where I want to be. I've been in situations before where bosses are inconsistent and this is not just in rugby and different are really inconsistent, so you don't know where you stand and sometimes you're like, oh geez, well, I'm walking on eggshells here. What does this mean and how do I operate within this environment? But if you provide an environment where you feel like you're going to grow, then people are going to be their best selves, and I think that's super important.
Speaker 1:I remember working in a pupil referral unit in London and it was one of my biggest lessons, because a lot of these young kids that have come into the system have come from tough backgrounds and whether that's for socioeconomic areas, whether that's a really rough upbringing, through some adversity. Some of them were refugees that have come across into London, but it was really hard to get them into the school, so we had to wand them down, mainly to take phones, but sometimes we found a couple other things that they were sort of carrying into school as well. Yeah, I've got a story for you by the day. But it was really hard to get them in there because their environment that they just come out of at home was unstable. And then they brought that behaviour then into the start of school I'm not coming in, you can't get me in. And to school I'm not coming in, you can't get me in. And then we get them into class and they start doing class and then they play up a little bit, but then at the end of the day we actually couldn't get them to leave the school. And I thought that was really interesting because one we provided probably structure, but also a positive environment where we were helping them, rather than that they were just cast aside or different struggles or even sometimes abused, than that they were just cast aside or different struggles or even sometimes abused. So that there taught me a real lesson around that environment and how it can influence them, to influence people to change. And it was quite I'll take a bit of a left turn.
Speaker 1:There was one situation. There was a young man. He was up on the school roof and I could have. I was like holy, how am I going to get him down from here. So you start trying to negotiate with him and you tell him and I was like, holy, how am I going to get him down from here? So you start trying to negotiate with him and you tell him and I was like I've run out of ideas here. I was like, well, I'm probably going to lose my job here and then I'm going to be kicked out of the country. Not probably true, but made him think that they were true. Holy, he jumped off the roof, sprinted into the principal and said you can't let him lose a job. So I let him lose a job. So I got off the roof.
Speaker 1:But I guess building those relationships and safe environment then gave him he didn't want to lose that. So for me, what? Sit back and I realized that some of the situations that I was in, not just at that school but other places, it's like, wow, you are a product of your environment and sometimes you know that story apple doesn't fall far from the tree, it doesn't. But then if you can change environments, then you've got a better chance of growing and being a good person all right, I love it, man.
Speaker 2:That's a great story, man. Now, paul, I'm gonna we're gonna wind this up now. It's been an awesome chat, but I want to finish with this one question, which is an intriguing question for me. It's this Do you have any beliefs around anything to do with the culture or leadership, or even just the rugby environment in general, that you think your peers in the rugby space, leadership and cultural space might disagree with Something a little bit different, that you think that people would go? I'm not 100 on that.
Speaker 1:When I present at some of these mental skills. I don't know if some people are with me because of the purple dot that I'm going off on all these tangents, so I'm sure I'll just have to say you're with me. I like to go down the area of learning from other sports around, the adventure sports, and I don't know if everyone thinks it's relatable to rugby and my job is then to tell a story to see if it is. But I was introduced to a book, the Rise of Superman, once, and I read that book and our athlete's ability to get into flow. But I think also to gain perspective, because adventure athletes are put in these environments where it can be life or death, and so their ability to pick up details, their ability to practice and hone their craft is second to none when we've got a safety net, if we're playing on a field, and we've got teammates where adventure athletes are usually solo, so everything lies with them. And once I read that book I was like, wow, that's so cool that their ability to get into flow or to be the best that they can be, and athletes that come to mind like Alex Honnell, free, solo. He spent 10 years looking at that and going up and with the ropes and preparing for it to then climb with no rope whatsoever. And if you watch that documentary you just can't believe where he got to with that.
Speaker 1:And other venture athletes, like people that do wingsuiting, for instance what the hell? They jump off a cliff with wings and they're flying in velocity and all they can hear is this background noise and they've got to block all that out to make decisions and they can't forecast, they can't go oh what if this happens? Or they can't lose their track of thought. I wonder if I'm going to have spaghetti bolognese next week for dinner. They have to be so present. So I think for me that's something that I in terms of I don't know if it's answered the question, but I think that that's something that I believe that we can learn from. And if I can help tell stories to gain bigger picture perspective for our athletes around rugby, performance perspective and also gratitude around some of that stuff, because life or death it's pretty scary stuff. So if I can help with that and use that as a tool, well then I feel like, possibly, I'm doing my job.
Speaker 2:That's a great one, paul, because it's not something that you're normally associated with. You could extract much out of, for the context of rugby, however, what you just said. There's some great points that you can get from that exposure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and I've done a few different presentations to our academy lads and a couple at camp too, and we did a bit of a review session and a lot of them brought those points up and some staff made me thinking what the hell kind of journey are you taking these guys on? But it's about growing as a person and using other people's stories. I'm not the one with all the stories. We've got to use other people's stories and there's more power in other people telling their stories than me trying to come up and fabricate one.
Speaker 2:Well, I can tell you what, mate. I agree with the storytelling one. If I could get someone else to read my little boy stories every night, that would be nice, a nice little breakthrough. I do love it. I do love telling the stories when I'm reading books at night, but now and then it would be nice to have someone else to tell a story. And give me a rest up, paul. Thank you very much, my friend, and give me a rest up, paul. Thank you very much, my friend.
Speaker 2:It's always a pleasure chatting to you about the bigger picture stuff of the game and I know that you shape environments which are absolutely outstanding and the care and connection you endeavor to put into everywhere you go is plain to see. And it's no surprise you've been elevated to the lead in that Crusaders environment. And I am excited to see and it's no surprise you've been elevated to the lead in that crusaders environment. And I am excited to see the next generation of crusaders and probably all blacks, coming through under your tutelage, because I know for a fact, mate, they will be outstanding young men because they've had your influence in their youth. So thank you, mate. It's been a pleasure and I look forward to seeing how you go over the next generation awesome.
Speaker 1:Thanks for having me, ben, and I guess one quick shout out too to all our staff that we have here, because without them we wouldn't be able to run the program that we do and they would, and also a shout out to them for actually, um, I guess, putting up with my purple dot too. So, um, appreciate it and uh, yeah, looking forward to this year's challenges.
Speaker 2:Go well, mate. Here are my final three takeaways from our conversation with Paul. Number one actions over words. It's pretty clear that the first thing that Paul said was this phrase At the Crusaders, caring isn't just a motto on the wall, it's how they live, from supporting each other to giving back to the community and helping charities. They make their values tangible every day and this fosters a real sense of belonging.
Speaker 2:Number two basing things like a theme park. This is a fantastic analogy, I reckon, because life as a pro rugby player. Number two basing things like a theme park. This is a fantastic analogy, I reckon, because life as a pro rugby player, or even a pro coach, can feel like a theme park right full of ups and downs, highs and lows, gut wrenching drops, and it's important that we expect both the twists and turns to leave a few scars, but not to let that keep you from savoring every moment. The more we highlight the upcoming thrills, the easier it is to stay grounded and avoid losing ourselves to fear.
Speaker 2:After all, as Paul says, this is an infinite game, one where resilience and connection matter more than any final score. So it's important to enjoy the ride, and I think it's also important for players just to understand what is coming up and to expect that there'll be low times and not think it's a cushy, easy ride and that, too, can be said for coaching. You'll have your highs and your lows, but to just enjoy them all as the ride that they are. It's a lovely phrase number using your platform for something bigger. Paul talks about. His role comes with influence, a gift and a responsibility. When you step up for a cause or lend a hand or speak out for what's right, you transcend the game itself. In the end, the real mark of success lies in how you uplift others and shape the world around you, and this isn't just for Paul and his academy space, but we as coaches and leaders have this responsibility and this care and this responsibility in every interaction we have with our teams. Till next time, stay well.