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Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Geoff Parling: High Challenge and High Support cultures
What separates good coaches from great ones? Geoff Parling reveals the answer goes beyond technical expertise to something deeper – creating environments where players thrive under pressure.
Having transitioned from an illustrious playing career (Newcastle, Leicester, Exeter, England, British & Irish Lions) to coaching the Melbourne Rebels and Australian national team, Parling brings unique perspectives on leadership. He challenges conventional wisdom about what builds excellence, particularly in forward packs where the dark, challenging work happens.
Parling's most powerful insight might be his approach to stress. Rather than removing it, he advocates for "growth stress" – like trees in a biodome that fall without wind to strengthen their roots. "High challenge with high support" creates the perfect balance for player development. Without challenge, players aren't equipped for pressure; without support, they can't rise to meet it.
The distinction between consistency and persistency emerges as another key theme. While many coaches pursue consistency, Parling values persistency – the relentless pursuit of improvement. "The best people in the world probably feel like they're always chasing something," he explains. This persistent edge drives excellence more effectively than mere repetition.
Perhaps most profound is Parling's belief that "a game of rugby should be an expression of how a player feels." This captures his coaching philosophy – creating environments where players not only understand tactics but feel empowered to express themselves authentically within the team structure.
Whether you're a coach, player, or leader in any field, Parling's insights offer valuable wisdom on creating environments where people can perform at their best when it matters most. Listen now to transform how you think about challenge, support, and building high-performance cultures.
Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's episode is with Jeff Parling. Jeff has an unreal playing career Newcastle, leicester, exeter, england and the British and Irish Lions before moving over to Japan with Sunix and finishing the twilight of his career with the Melbourne Rebels, where the most famous giraffe picking a pebble story came about. He then retired and where he cut his teeth was with the Melbourne Rebels as their forward coach for five years and then he moved into the Australian national team as their forwards coach Geoffrey.
Speaker 2:Jamal, thanks for having me mate.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the dining table.
Speaker 2:Yeah, beautiful, what a pleasure. Bit of food beforehand as well.
Speaker 1:So I'm not treating you, mate well, this is how we're rolling here with this, this podcast. It's just more than you do this for all the guests. Yeah, everyone has got a degree of host from myself. No one has got homemade pizzas, so you're the first.
Speaker 2:Privilege, mate Privilege.
Speaker 1:And I love that you've got the dress code Nice, that we're managing. I've got an MLG. It has been awesome, mate. So I'm loving having you here, mate, because I've known you for a long time and I've loved where you've got to in a quick space of time with your coaching. So I'd love just to see how things are going, mate. How are the coaching world going for you?
Speaker 2:Coaching world's been good. It was a big year last year, so obviously the Rebels to start with was an emotional year mate. There was a lot going on there with what happened, so obviously you know when you're in there. It was amazing to see how a, a group, can stay, stay together with a lot of outside noise and a lot of distractions and I I thought as a, as a group, we did that and then obviously, moving straight into the Wallabies set-up has been great for me. Very grateful for the opportunity. Yeah, it's been a great experience. Obviously some lows and some highs, mate, like a mix as you get with coaching, but I think we definitely saw progression from the start of the first week, the July test, how we finished in the November tour. I definitely think there was progression in the team and you feel like you're definitely adding something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and for you personally, how's it gone with your whole transition? Because it's a pretty quick rise for you. You've gone straight into, like super rugby and then now international rugby. How's that transition from player, super rugby, coach and then international coach? How's that transition been for you?
Speaker 2:look, I've um, I love the code, I love the game, I love love what it gives people. I do feel like I was coaching in some way throughout my playing career anyway. So, whether that was um on the side, I remember when I was, when I was 19, at newcastle, I was coaching, coaching one of the university teams there. Yeah, I was at exeter. I was coaching taunt and titans, so I always did bits on the side anyway and I probably feel, um, I was someone who had to learn the game and almost coach the game on the pitch anyway. That was my role probably. I wasn't this physical big athlete that could just run through people. I had to bring something different and for me that was learning the game, learning my role really well and playing my part there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because that is a big part of your game, wasn't it? You were the sharp man, intelligent man. Man got a all-round scholarship for your last year of high school oh, jam on, jeez, I know right mate, so we're gonna bring that up. Okay, yep, but like mate, I think it's really an important thing. Did you feel like you were always destined to be a coach, or did it surprise you when you finished playing that you found it?
Speaker 2:loved it. It wasn't a surprise, because I'd probably been. I didn't coaching qualifications when I was injured when I was in my 20s. I knew I loved that area of the game. I tried other things, um, other things with um, you know, with commercial partners, and I never really enjoyed them. Coaching was what I enjoyed the most. It's my way of, I feel like it's my way of affecting people in a positive manner. That's my way of helping influence the group. You feel like you're making a difference and I look when you see a player suddenly turn that spark, yep, right, I'm gonna, this is important. Now you know, and that's what really gives something back to you when you see that so it's an awesome feeling, isn't it?
Speaker 1:yeah, is it the driver for doing it?
Speaker 2:it's one of the drivers definitely one of the drivers what would be a couple of the other ones look, I enjoy the edge of coaching at the top level, like I. I enjoy the people who call it the pressure, whatever is I, I enjoy that. I not particularly great at the times where I don't have, yeah, that edge, if I'm honest. So I I really in that that element of competing. Yeah, yeah, I love it.
Speaker 1:Um if you're working a nine to five job, you reckon you'd just Struggle with that.
Speaker 2:Depends what a 9-5 job is, depends what it is. Look, I don't know, if I wasn't coaching, I feel like I'd have to be On the edge somewhere. I'm probably quite Uncomfortable being comfortable, which is probably the opposite of Maybe some of the people you know. Yeah, I love it, mate. Well, it's funny you say that of maybe some of the people you know I love it, mate.
Speaker 1:Well, it's funny you say that because a couple of the things you said there like I've got a couple of quotes from you is that you don't this is what you said when you were a player. I don't see it as a sacrifice playing rugby, and I love that because you just said you enjoy it so much. You want to be there. Is that the same as a coach?
Speaker 2:Mate. Yeah, it's interesting you speak that we actually spoke to the lads today so I gave a perspective of the Lions Tour in 13 from the Lions side and Johnny Hill spoke to our players about the Mullaby side of things and the only sacrifice I feel, the only moment I ever felt a sacrifice in the game, was on that Lions that lines to when may was born. So your daughter yes, yes, my oldest daughter was born. I met her when she was two and a half weeks. That's the only time I don't honestly mean this. I ever feel like I questioned my sacrifice. You know it worked out well in the end. Any other time people speak about sacrificing, um, missing good times with the mates on nights out or trips away. For me it was the opposite there. If I if I'd done that, I would be sacrificing the opportunity to be a good rugby player. Yeah, yeah, do you mean I completely flipped? I didn't feel like the traditional way for me at all.
Speaker 2:It felt the opposite yeah um, because I knew I guess I just looked what I did and it was a great opportunity, mate, and I didn't want to let it slip by.
Speaker 1:Mate, I love it, I absolutely love it. And here's another quote from you, too, which I thought was a really good one is coaching can be all-consuming if you're invested in it, like you said that actually last year, and is it still that? Is it all-consuming for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's all-consuming. But what I mean there is it can be all consuming at the international level and it can be all consuming for somebody coaching at level eight you know way down the levels because people care about it. If you care about what you do, it's all consuming. Yeah, yeah, and I mean that's coaching, that's probably any job Like, if you really care about what you do, and it's consuming. I don't mean consuming in a bad way, it doesn't have to be consuming in a bad way. You know, I know I.
Speaker 2:There's a few things I have to do to coach my best. I have to exercise during the day, yes, and I probably have to have some afternoon during the week. I have to get my head away and have some time at least one afternoon a week. At least one afternoon a week. At least have time away from the game, whether that's with family, friends, whatever it is. If I do that, I'll be a better coach the next day. Yeah, if I don't get those things, if I get into a routine that doesn't involve some form of exercise and being outside, then I won't coach as well. So if I let it consume me in the bad way and I don't do things, I'm going to be a worse coach anyway, mate.
Speaker 1:Mate. I love that. Now I'm pretty keen, geoffrey, this conversation is really like. I'm really interested to know about your thoughts on the cultural aspect of rugby. I know particularly of the coaching side of things. I know you were always when you did play the game. You were huge around the culture, just inherently. You enjoyed it. You did a lot of great things as a player. But I'd love to know now, when you flip to the coaching side, what does coach culture look like for you and what does it smell like? What does it feel like?
Speaker 2:Well, firstly, what is culture? There'd be a thousand definitions of it. For me it would be something simple. Is that it's the way we do things around here? Yeah, probably just something simpler. It's the all, the small little interactions, the sum of them all.
Speaker 2:So the way things way we do things around here um, I do think it can sometimes be an overused word at the expense of the things that probably will give you a good culture in the lower.
Speaker 2:So I actually think if you just start with the way we do things here is doing things the right way, being honest with each other, speaking to each other in a good manner, high challenge, a high challenge place with a high supportive place, you're probably going to get a good culture on high challenge, a high challenge place with a high supportive place, you're probably going to get a good culture on the back end of that. I probably think it's hard to do it the other way and speak only about culture to start with and then add on the other bits. I think culture is more a product of starting off, probably driven from the top to start with down and then down and back up, and you'll get those interactions and that's the way we do things and suddenly you've found your culture. It's just suddenly appeared and it's there and it sticks and you work at it.
Speaker 1:Love it, man. And when you said particularly a high challenge place, what are some examples of that that you think is why is a high challenge place great for a culture and environment? What does high challenge?
Speaker 2:mean, because I want anybody in the environment to be the best they can be, and I only believe you're going to get that through being challenged. I think people speak about stress in the wrong way. Stress in the world now is seen as a bad thing. We're trying to remove stress from everyone's lives. How do you get better and how do you grow without stress? I think I call it growth stress, stress to make you better, as long as you react in the right way. I think, even think of you, think of kids. And well, the guys are not, not resilient anymore. They don't do this. Of course they do. They are resilient. Just make sure you don't remove the little bits of stress in their lives, because they've got to experience that to learn, haven't you?
Speaker 2:I think I enjoyed, was it the biodome? In america there's that biodome experiment. They made this giant, giant biodome. I don't know after however many years, the, the trees just fell down, and it turned out because in the biodome there's no wind. Wind is what would allow the, the roots to grow and give them deep, thick, strong roots. So without the stress of the wind, the trees trees would fall over the roots hadn grow and give them deep, thick, strong roots. So without the stress of the wind, the trees would fall over, the roots hadn't grown, and that's what I believe to be the same with people, you know, is we need to be stressed.
Speaker 1:The biodome, so without all those niggly factors. When it's a perfect world scenario, that actually doesn't.
Speaker 2:There's no wind. Yeah, look at it, mate. Somewhere in America, maybe in the I don't know what decade it was in.
Speaker 1:It seems like I love the concept of it. It almost feels like it could be a Stephen King setting time over. There you go, mate. Could be a new film, Mate, I love it. Well, I guess the analogy for that is often like when you go back to physical stress. If you go to the gym, you understand that you stress your muscles, you rip them to pieces, you get bigger and stronger because of that. But then if you flip it around to every other aspect of being in rugby, like the mental stress, the emotional stresses, if you don't have them you don't grow, Just like physically you don't grow in the gym if you just do the lightest, most comfortable weights possible. That's a really interesting concept because like is like, there's obviously a a spectrum on that.
Speaker 1:Like from so hard that you're tearing people down yeah to zero, where you're giving them nothing and they're just free range and not getting anything out of. Where would you see what would be your? You know perfect what's too much, what's too little. Well, I would be your. You know perfect what's too much.
Speaker 2:What's too little? Well, I would be. I would want to be high challenge and really high support as well. High challenge, low support no, that's not going to work. That's just. That's going to demean people, put them down. They're not going to feel like they can grow. Same with low challenge, high support it's not real. Those people, when they get to the biggest challenges in rugby or the biggest challenges in life, they're not going to be equipped to cope with the sudden amount of stress that comes at them. So it's got to be. For me, it's got to be high challenge, where you're testing people, you're honest, you're pushing them in the right way. You're just trying to just extend them constantly.
Speaker 1:Would an example of this say if I take a really specific forwards play, so someone's, you've got a sequence of where you go from, all structure set up and if someone doesn't know or gets it wrong, you challenge them around knowing their role, but then also give them support. And if you don't know it, come and see me after training, We'll sit down and we'll go through it.
Speaker 2:Is that what you're meaning by yeah, I've got to have given them the tools to be able to know the role. If I've not given them, um, the opportunity to learn, well, I've not done my job properly. Yeah, I've got to give them the tools and whatever that is. I've got to have given them the chance to start with, to actually and that's where you've got to know the player, because some players might get something literally like that, but the players might take a little bit longer and I've got to give them. If I just say that's the play, do it. Geez, some guys are going to feel that's, that's not growth stress. Then you know that's that's debilitating stress. That's going to go too much. So it's got to. It has got to be the right amount I like that phrase.
Speaker 1:yeah, debbilitating stress is no good and that's obviously part of the coach's skill set is to get to know individuals, to know which guy you deliver this way and which guy or girl you deliver that way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 100%. And look, do we get it right all the time? No, like no, we don't. That's the challenge as a coach and there's also, I guess ideally you've got some sort of you know, graded exposure. So when guys get to a certain level, you know they've already ticked off and mastered that sort of level below, so they're probably ready to come to your level. Does that make sense? You've got a, you've done a junior academy, for example at a club, then you get into a academy, then you get into a senior academy, then you become a member of the first team and you gradually work your way up. You'll get a few and you get an odd superstar who you can throw in straight away and they can deal with everything. But for the majority of players I reckon you've got to grade their exposure somehow so they can succeed here with the right amount of stress and succeed there with the right amount of stress and keep going?
Speaker 1:Have you had any misses? Like any A hundred percent, any without names? Yeah.
Speaker 2:Any like situations which you've caught. I've also had them. There's been times where you probably had a player with you and you probably know they're not quite ready. Now with some young players, you won't know until you chuck them in. So there is a bit of an element of a gamble there and a risk. But there are times where you think, oh, I would have liked this guy to have had a bit more exposure at that level first, before they maybe made a first team.
Speaker 1:It's quite hard to get it. If you haven't had it, though, isn't it Okay, Jeff? And now you've had great experience with, like I'm really interested in your culture. You create, more specifically than the whole team, about the forward mentality, Because there's a real difference between forwards and backs in rugby, and the culture and the environment of those two training groups are really different, and you've had a career in the tight stuff in the forwards. Now you're coaching it at a super high level. How do you create an atmosphere, an environment like a mentality for a forward pack? Is there something, anything you do like? You talked about the challenging standards, but you're asking players to do some stuff which no one inherently likes some of those dark places.
Speaker 2:How do you To start with? Maybe people don't like it to start with, but I do think you can grow to love it. I do think you can grow to love it. I do think you can grow to love it, like in a forward pack. There's got to be some sort of edge, for starters there has, because that's just the nature of some sort of edge in the way of repair and playing.
Speaker 2:I do think the big thing is what's accepted in that group. So if you go into any team or any group you're new in, even if you think you don't do it, you naturally look around, you think what's accepted here, right and that's going to alter your behavior. Even if it's five, ten percent, I don't believe there's anybody that can that will go into an environment. Not many people will go in and truly be themselves without being slightly influenced by the others around them. So what is accepted? Can I work? Can we work with the real influential people in that group to decide right, this is how we're going to operate, this is the way we're going to do things around here. This is the culture of, of the environment, and so when new people come in, it's very clear. And if they don't operate in a way we've decided. The way we're going to operate, it's going to stand out and they're probably going to want to change how they behave and are you the gatekeeper of that stuff?
Speaker 2:yeah, look, I think the players are. Um, I think it's a player's game, so I think the players will be the gatekeeper, but I've got to drive it and sometimes players need help in the way it's got to go and I've got to lead that there as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and do you lead that through, because a lot of the stuff is emotional, particularly in the forwards. There's a lot of emotion in there. There's a lot of redhead stuff in the forwards. Do you have to get yourself into that place as well, or do you need to be the cool, calm head when you're trying to get people to follow your lead on that side of things?
Speaker 2:I think, a balance. You definitely need some red. You need some red in the belly, donnie. We had the quote today. You need to be red in the belly, you need to be blue in the head, and I think if everybody was just red in the head, yeah, and I think if everybody was just red in the head, well, that's not going to work. The game's not like that. There's technical, tactical aspects. We need eight players to all just do their job in unison. What's a scrum? What's a moor? It's eight people all pushing in the same direction at the same time. So there's got to be a. There's a balance there between the red and the blue definitely.
Speaker 1:Which? Where do you inherently lie? Do you reckon, as a coach, if you had to say on the spectrum of red to blue head and in your coaching head, where do you reckon you'd be when you walk across that paint? And I know this about you, jeff, like as soon as you as a player, as a player as a coach, when you cross that line, you almost have a another ego.
Speaker 1:You're switching to alter ego. Where does that ego look for you like? Is it on down that redhead where you get fired up more angry red, or do you go to the cool, calm, collective head? What's your set point?
Speaker 2:um, I do think there's a balance. I think I was maybe probably slightly more red when I started coaching and maybe I'm going, I'm getting more blue as I progress. I think there are times where I'm be red and you can probably your words can be a little bit sharp sometimes and you can realize that challenge is too much, yeah, with not enough high support. Yeah, yeah, with not enough support. So there's definitely been times early in my coaching career where that could have been the case.
Speaker 2:Look, I probably thrived as a player at the club that we met at Leicester, which we know was certainly high challenge, yeah, wasn't it? It certainly was Certainly high challenge, wasn't it? Certainly, certainly was certainly high challenge and that was where I probably naturally would live and thrive. But then I appreciate that that's not for everyone and that doesn't get the best from everyone there. That would be my probably my gentle bias, would would lean towards that and I still think, if I look at the top sporting environments in the world, um, the most consistent sporting environments in the world, there's. There's probably a little bit more red there than people think, but, like I said, mate, there's got to be, there's got to be that blue and there's got to be the there's got to be the support there. A player's got to feel supported as well, yeah, I completely agree with you.
Speaker 1:Around, I think people coming into the professional environment will often be would be surprised that, uh, the tone of a lot of the very best coaches in the world is actually pretty red at times, and it's. It's pretty direct, it's pretty blunt and it's it's the culture that's instilled in those top environments. Isn't it where everyone's expected to be doing the right thing at the right time and you're getting told pretty quickly if you're not? That's, that's a pretty Universal thing, would you say in your experience? Yeah, on the best teams.
Speaker 2:The best thing is just honest. People are upfront and honest. Yeah, yeah, um, but then again at the right time, like I feel, when we were at Leicester. Um caucus was known as a bit of a madman, but even the half times there, if we were losing and playing poorly, it would be all about being positive and how we could fix it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:There was nothing not really much external noise there that you didn't need.
Speaker 1:Now, when you're talking about losing and I agree with your statement there for sure but when you're talking about being and I agree with your statement there for sure. But when you're talking about being with the Rebels for a good chunk of time, that you were not a successful team on the table, and sometimes the forward pack huge amount of challenges, particularly when there's injuries, the depth wasn't as probably strong as other teams. How did you manage to get those guys rolling back every week? What sort of tone did you have to take as a coach, where you're up against it every week and you're going in against some top-drawer teams? How did you address when you didn't do so well and you've got young guys coming through that haven't had that experience you're talking about? How did you get them to come together? Righto boys, this is the opportunity I've got this week. How did you come about galvanising a forward fit?
Speaker 2:Yeah, great coaching challenge. I think you've got to be clear on the goal. You've got to be simple enough so everybody knows their role for starters. Then look in terms of motivation wise, I think probably the biggest thing that gives a player belief is mastery experience, and that's the hardest bit is when you've got players that are maybe playing teams that they're. They've only ever lost to or being hammered by and they've never been this team that. You know that the the honestly I think it's the biggest thing is has that player mastered that role before and beating a team? They've done that and at least they can look back and think well, that's what I did last time, that's what happened. They know it's a really hard challenge. Um, how can I make it? Uh, how can I? I've lost my train of thought there. What was it?
Speaker 1:no, you're talking about the challenge. When you're down, how can you make it come back um?
Speaker 2:challenge. When you're down, how can you make it come back? Um, yeah, probably. Well, I looked at a weakness in the opposition team. So kind of pick an area where to grow belief. Definitely kind of work with an individual to show them pictures or something they've been working on and I can show them a clear picture of this is where you started out. You've been working hard and look where you are now. This is better. That's going to give someone belief as well, but it makes a. It's probably one of the hardest parts of coaching, isn't it?
Speaker 1:I think so, mate, but but for you, jeffrey, I think it's um, when I had someone quote, one of your coaches said you had a joyful seriousness about your coaching, like full of joy, but then it also lays for some good seriousness. Who was that?
Speaker 1:I can't tell you my sources, my sources are secret yeah, yeah you can probably, yes, but um, but, mate, I'm really interested around you yourself and what you bring to those environments, cause you are without, you are a little bit unconventional, you are a little bit um. You do think outside the box in a quirky way, which has always been part of your character and I think it sets you apart as a coach. How have you brought that side of your character into your coaching, like that, that real difference, where that you've gotten, you've got the edge side?
Speaker 1:yeah but you've also got that really out there. Creative side how do you merge?
Speaker 2:those two. You've got to know when, when to bring each side up. So the the edge side has got to stick and be there the whole time in a forward pack. It's got to be there. Now my thing is I think this is sometimes for me, this is a fault that coaches do around the world in every sport. Sometimes I feel like they look at the top teams and then just want to copy what all the top teams do. I think you can learn from other people and look, I love development and speaking to other coaches and maybe I take one or two things. That's great. But I coach the way I coach and I'm coaching and this team, this package, can operate the way we operate and the teams can operate the way we operate. And my thing is, can we do it better than it's been done before? And I don't think you can do that through only copying other people. You can, like I said, you can look at the best teams, the best environments and learn from them, and I've been really privileged to do that regularly. I look well.
Speaker 2:We shared a picture of the melbourne storm for years. I saw where they operated daily and I saw the consistency that they took to training, of effort. But I tell you what the melbourne storm, when they trained it was on. It was hard, it was relentless. As soon as the whistle blew and there was a gap between training, the noise was loud, there was laughter, there was smiles and then the whistle would go again for the next drill and it was hard and there was an edge and people would work hard and for me that's the, the perfect balance. You know, the perfect balance. I think if you're constantly one or the other, it won't work. But, like I said, can we do it? Can I do it better than it's done before? Wasn't that a great challenge to try and go and do something in that way?
Speaker 1:Yeah, couldn't agree more. And do you cut and paste the stuff that you do in other teams to teams you're in now, or does it? Do you throw everything out the window and say start again, right, new team. Yeah, you know it has got to assess the environment first. Or do you go? This is what I do here it is.
Speaker 2:Um, I guess so far I'm not saying this is always the way, but I've got some certain things that I do regularly because I believe that they are a good way for me to work and a group to work and I might play with the edges. You know, the heart of what I do probably stays the same, but all the stuff on the edges, that's where I might play a bit, and no, that's not going to suit this group and I need to alter this thing here.
Speaker 1:Ah, right, do you have a couple of key values that go with it, that values that go with it? Um, do you like your heart? Yes, so like you've got your the structural stuff that you do the nuts and bolts of the game. But any values which you go, these are the ones that I want my forward pack to be x, y and z or that that's unanimous. Wherever I go, my forward packs will have these values and this intensity or whatever. Or do you wait and see? Let's see when I get no, look, I'll.
Speaker 2:For start with, they've got to work hard and I know everyone would say that, but that's the basic. Sorry, you've got to work smart. You've got to work smart. There's a work hard and smart. You know there's no point in just working. You could be the fastest runner in the world, but if you run the wrong way around the track, you're not going to win the race. Like, you've got to work hard and do it in the right direction, be clear in what we do and do it with others. That would be probably my first value and, if I could pick things, the perfect player for me.
Speaker 1:You say off Geoffrey.
Speaker 2:No, not myself, you yourself. They would persistently apply themselves. And I say persistently probably more so than consistent, because I feel like the best people in the world probably feel like they're always chasing something. So it is consistent. Of course it was, but if you asked any sportsman or looked at any sportsman, they're probably you know. They get to number two in the world and they're chasing number one spot. They get to number one and they're chasing it. They're still chasing more because they know someone else is coming. So they persistently apply themselves.
Speaker 2:I think they know what they need really well and what the others need around them. So the best teammates for me are very clear of what they need to start with, because if they look after themselves and become the best player they are and the best get what they need, that's actually going to be the first block of being a good teammate, because they're going to play well. That's what we need them to do. But they're also aware of what they're. They know their teammates well and I know, right, that bloke there. He knows that bloke there. Yeah, he needs a bit more challenge now. Or he needs an arm around it, or he needs some help, or he needs, um, some support off the field.
Speaker 2:But I also think the best players are curious and I think that's probably something that, um, it's not a word. I hear more really in the um rugby world. I think the best players are really curious of why are we doing this? And we're all salesmen as coaches. Really, you've got to be trying to sell the why. Why are we doing this? How is that going to make me better? Why is that person over there doing it that way? Actually, I don't believe in that. They're constantly asking questions.
Speaker 1:Coaches are salesmen In a way, that's right.
Speaker 2:I'll tell you something. Yeah, try to sell a vision and a goal, a game model, a way of playing, a way of training.
Speaker 1:I agree, mate. I think it was a really cool point you made about persistency versus consistency. When you're persistent, it almost has that sort of you've got that niggliness, that edge to you where you're just at someone or you're at something or you're just chasing, as you said. And I think that's quite a cool distinction between those words, because consistency is talked about a lot, but persistency you don't hear that so much.
Speaker 2:No, I just think you're constantly chasing to get better, constantly chasing to, to try and improve and that could look, that can actually be, um, that can be a dark spot at times. Do you know what I mean? Because you're never going to feel, yeah right, content really, because you're always chasing the next thing. But that's what I feel like some of the best, I guess sportsmen, probably best business businessman, best in any job.
Speaker 1:In coaching. What are you chasing? What gets you out of bed? What are you chasing every day, every week, every season? What is it for you that you're chasing?
Speaker 2:You probably always feel like you could be doing things better. You can probably deliver what you think is the best session in the world, but there'll also be part of you thinking, oh, oh, geez, maybe I do that slightly differently. Oh no, I could have. I could have delivered it in this manner instead, I could have delivered it with this tone of voice. I could have changed this slightly. Maybe that player there I could have co-coached a bit more with that guy.
Speaker 1:And you always feel those improvements, mate, mate, I love it. It actually reminds me you just triggered that persistency in your character. I remember you did all your knee ligaments. I think you did your PCL, acl, mcl, cartilage.
Speaker 2:Fracture the whole.
Speaker 1:Fracture. You did the big five and your alpha. Gee, it must have been close to a year then the first game back. You got hit and you carried the ball, and then you did it all again.
Speaker 2:Oh, sorry, no, do you know what it was? It was exactly a year later to the day I'd done it and I, in the same minute, on the same date, playing on a night game, and I didn't do it all again, but I did about three of them this time. Yeah, it was up for a few months.
Speaker 1:And then that's essentially almost two years worth of rehabbing. We're in the middle of your peak of your career and then to see you have to work and chase and get back. Yeah, and that seems like that's a big part of your coaching these days too.
Speaker 2:I actually remember it well, john, when I did it the first time we were playing no, that's what it was. I had had a neck operation in the summer for starters and I came back in the 50th minute of a game we were playing Harlequins at Welford Road and Chris Wobshaw slung me over his knee sort of a sling tackle and that's when I blew out my knee, yeah. So I came on, had two carries. That was right. I was at two carries and a miss. I was averaging 160 carries per game. Then you'll see, it's nice I take that.
Speaker 2:But I remember we went to the physio room obviously you'd know it well under that old standard business road and Jules was the physio there and she started getting upset and started crying. She just reeled me back from this neck injury like I don't need your tears because how was that going to get me better? In that moment I was literally flipped in straight away to right, what's going to get me better right now? Right, what do I need? Do I need ice? What's what we do with my knee? Get on straight like there's. There were maybe some points when I was at home after a month that I might be like jeez, how has this happened. What that moment there tears from my physio when I'm going to get my knee better Do you know what I mean? There could be some critical things to do right now to get me back on the pitch a bit quicker.
Speaker 1:Mate, there's a well, and do you reckon that sort of mindset flows through to what you're doing now, Like what's going to work right now or what do we need to do right now?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think when we were playing, it was always win the next moment. It was always win the next moment because, look, do I think about things that have happened in the past or in the future? Of course I do, but I probably do that more when things have slowed right down. But I feel like when I'm was in the moment of playing or in the moment of coaching, what do we need right now is so important mate, like the next right now is so important mate. The next moment in the game for players, that's the only thing that matters, isn't it Really? Yeah, you get that moment right and the moments after will probably be better.
Speaker 1:There's a lovely classic rugby coaching cliche about just play whistle to whistle, which I always enjoyed as well. One coach told me when I was younger don't worry about anything else, just when that whistle blows you stop and you think about what's happening next and you're preparing for that. Whatever it is 45 seconds between that whistle and then the next whistle.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's only 45 seconds on average or something to that effect. Yeah, I thought that was a really good just win that moment, just whatever you've got to do on that little small space of time and when you chunk those down, I find that a really manageable way, rather than you're lost in the whole game to chunk it down into whistle to whistle. Yeah, yeah, I find that good, nice one. Hey, now, mate, I'm really intrigued about some of the stuff you've learned as you've gone along, mate, in your leadership side of your coaching stuff. So I often talk about this is there anything when you started coaching that you went I don't know necessarily what I want to be. It's hard to narrow it down, but is there anything that you said I don't want to be this as a coach when you got started?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I wanted to be a coach that a player would look back at at the end of his career and think, geez, that guy helped me be the best player I could be. I didn't necessarily want to be the coach that was felt like they had to be seen as a friend right there and then does that make sense? And I don't mean that in the wrong way. I mean in that I think one of the reasons I wanted to coach is I felt like I'd been in some great environments with some great coaches and I'd been in some other environments where I felt like a coach at the time got it wrong because they weren't doing what was best for the player and to make them the best player and person they could be. And I felt that, and to make the players the best players they could be, you've got to think, you've got to have the big picture. Do you know what I mean? So it's all about those moments right there, but I've got to get there.
Speaker 2:Don't know if I'm explaining this well, but I've got to have the, the big picture in my mind. I think when players can stop and go straight into coaching, they, because of the relationship side, they can feel like they have to still be part of the changing room. Yes, do you know what I mean? Do you know what I mean? It's a hard transition. Yeah, there's the transition. I I didn't feel like that because I felt I was very clear. My role there was I'm not in the changing room anymore so you transitioned really quick.
Speaker 1:So you went from playing and then in coaching and then there was no. You didn't feel like a player. When you started coaching you were like that is down the line, yeah, that is totally off the table, that was gone couple of years in Japan did that to you well, no, I think.
Speaker 2:Boxing staff, maybe that's another story. Maybe hanging on for longer than I should have played, maybe that that was. No, I felt like I was ready to coach and I was very clear of my job is to make that player a better rugby player and, obviously, helping be a better person as well. I don't. I'm the change, the changing part of it. That's gone.
Speaker 1:Now that moment's over yeah, isn't it interesting, like when you like as a player, that's, that's the what you love, but then as a coach, you know when you're becoming a coach, when you can leave that side of the thing to the players, that's your time now, people, my time is now over here, and creating that separation is really important. Probably the hardest role is that player-coach role. From that, when you're playing the game and you're in the changing room and you've got a coach, it would be hard, mate, yeah, hard role. I remember chatting to a couple of coaches who were that and they struggled with the fact that they then were teaching something and then not necessarily executing without the game, because they're slower and they know where they're going. Do as I say Absolutely, mate. So it's really fantastic that you made that transition quickly, because I know that's probably quite rare.
Speaker 2:It probably helped. I'd only played the Rebels for one season. I imagine it's harder for blogs that have played with people for 10 years than certainly the coaching. I had that sort of separation, naturally, anyway.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and what about the stresses, mate, that have crept up over the years? Because coaching can be a rocky journey, especially at the professional level, where you don't always know where your next role might become and your livelihood is dependent on something like the success of a team. Someone could say no, that's enough for you, you're out. How has the stresses hit you over the last few years and the ups and downs of that side of coaching?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't think it can hit you, mate. People don't realise that there's that side of it. You know, I know lots of coaches that are separated from the foundation for months on end, some in different countries. That's not something I would like to do. Yeah, it can be hard for any coach, I reckon. I reckon I used to.
Speaker 2:The way I deal with it now is I probably used to have a plan. When I first got into coaching I probably thought, right, I'll try and do this and try and do that and I'll try and do that. Whereas I don't have a coaching plan anymore, I just want to be the best coach I can be in this moment, right now, and then, whatever happens in the future I don't see what will happen. Um, that's the best way of advancing your coaching career, I think, is just being the best. Coaching and rugby, any sport, a small world. Just be the best you can be in in your moment and for that week, that day, that month, and everything will flow from there yeah, and how do you get better in that moment?
Speaker 1:like, what resources and things do you look look at? How do you get better in that moment, like, what resources and things do you look at? What do you do to grow both the technical and the other side of coaching, with the delivery and cons?
Speaker 2:I find the technical tactical sides really easy to grow. I feel like I've got a very good eye for that anyway. But luckily I know lots of coaches. I was on a Zoom with a premiership forwards coach yesterday.
Speaker 2:Do you know what I mean. So if you linked up, I find that bit very easy. The bit I'm most interested in is the mental side of the game and how can you improve that? I actually did a psychology degree, finished that about 18 months ago, because I Now you were doing, I actually did a. I did a psychology degree, finished that about 18 months ago, because I.
Speaker 1:Now, you were doing that whilst you were coaching, and so you would take all your books away to the hotel rooms and study.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it started during, during COVID, which is a great time to start, and then COVID finished and I was like I've still got to get. I've still got quite a few modules here. For me it was just I wanted to put a bit of a academic understanding to the things I believed or the things I was learning about. That's all it was. Everyone else that was doing it was trying to be some sort of clinical psychologist and I was doing it just to be a try and understand people better, be a better coach and, to be honest, be a better friend, be a better to understand people better, be a better coach and, to honest, mate, be a better friend, be a better father. Like lots of stuff I'm trying to do learn about coaching. I'm also thinking about my kids as well, and am I being a better, better parent?
Speaker 1:because, jesus, some crossovers that massive, massive crossovers what's been the biggest crossovers on that front, what with the kids, coaching, coaching and parenting.
Speaker 2:Language for me. So you know, with kids you could get geez, you could have had some massive days and you feel tired, your wife feels tired and the kids won't listen and you might say something. Or you might say it away and it might not be much, but you might say something and you think, oh jeez, I regret saying it like that, I could have said that better. So I think it's always better to try and say nothing and say too much, and I probably feel the same with that in coaching. You know, after a game you've got a feeling and you chat to players but they might want to know some real details about how they played and you just might want to give it a bit of time first. Yeah, I mean because you don't want to say things.
Speaker 2:I've seen coaches before praise a player straight after a game for playing really well and then drop them on the Monday because they didn't actually play very well. So how is that? Mixed messaging? That's not great, and I feel that's the same with parenting is. I'm trying to get my kids to be good people, patient, deliver things, well-mannered. If I say something that's not well-mannered, well, how am I modelling that behaviour? I've got to model the right behaviour as well.
Speaker 1:Mate, I couldn't agree more with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, agree with that.
Speaker 1:Yeah well, mate, almost three teenagers in my household. Mate, I've got to hold my look quite often, but it is like I find that crossover is actually amazing with kids and coaching. I find that crossover is actually amazing with kids and coaching. I find it's absolute parallel. I've often thought that you are coaching someone's child. Whoever you've got in front of you is someone's child themselves. They might be 30 years old, but they're still someone's child. I find that a really important aspect, aspect that I think it needs to be remembered that you talked about, like the high support and the high challenge. Like the high support is what you'd give your children. You'd always make sure you're there for them, regardless of what they do good or bad. You've got to be that supporting thing, and it's almost the same in rugby or any sport context too. They're your children.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And you treat them as such.
Speaker 2:Yeah, agreement. Look, some of your proudest moments as a parent aren't when they're getting accolades for everything. It's how they behave and it's how they're behaving to other people, and that's probably the same with players. How are they behaving on the pitch? I think the beautiful thing a player has when they play the game of rugby is they get you can see it with your eyes when you're watching it what the teammates means to them, what the game means to them. Now, there is an element of has the coach set them up with clarity, but it's an expression, jambo.
Speaker 2:I think a game of rugby should be an expression of how a player feels. Does he feel confident? Does he love what he's doing? Do you know what I mean? You watch the best games, don't you? I'm on about as well. It could be a jeez. It could be a 7-5 win. Do you know what I mean? But it could be an unbelievably good game where people expressing themselves by working so hard. Who are the guys that are chasing back on it? The game isn't on the line anymore, but they're still putting everything in for the team. Jeez, it's a beautiful thing.
Speaker 1:It is fascinating, mate. That's a great phrase. The game should be an expression of how they feel, and your part as a coach, your part is to create that feel. And that's a little bit of a mixture of the detail, the emotive side, the environmental piece, the knowing, the individual. It's all that medley of things, isn't it? Yeah?
Speaker 2:no, definitely mate, and again, it's a great challenge Far out. You don't get it right all the time, but it's a great challenge if you don't get it right all the time, but it's now, mate, I'm really keen.
Speaker 1:I've got a couple of specific things for you like, because I know you did this when you came down to visit Dunedin years ago and you met a mentor who pulled you up on your body language. I met your mentor, quirky bloke. So just for a bit of context on that, we had a mentor there who thought right outside the box. He was a different sort of fella and for every nine hearable things he would say, he would say one gold nugget. And I sent you to him to have a chat and it didn't go down well. He said you walked in and he said your body length.
Speaker 2:It went well in the end. To start, I think I was sat when he walked in and I quite like the thinking pose so I naturally sometimes sit. So I remember this. Who was just my. That's your day V. Yeah, he's straight away. He's like what are you doing? Why are you sat like that? That's not open. And I was like whoa, it was a great start to the meeting. I loved it. He was straight into business.
Speaker 1:And would that be an example of someone hitting it like that? That's that challenge aspect of like, like he just said because he's that sort of bloke, rather.
Speaker 2:Somebody just just said something, um, that they were thinking, rather than sugar-coated it, um, I think I just said who's. It might have been, uh, ivan cleary, when he said, look, he would. You can still, you don't have to be delivered in a steel fisting, be delivered in a velvet glove. Do you know what I mean? Like yeah, I thought, right, I've got. I'm gonna be thinking that quote, but you can. I wanted to just say it, mate. I actually don't need. This is me personally. You know when someone might say, oh, can I ask you a question and we'll really build up to the actual point. Just just give me the point, mate. I just want to be honest here, give me the honest up front and saying what you're thinking.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Mate, you're very much like that Geoffrey. I love it. That's why you go so well, mate, Righto mate. And so you had a little bit of time in Japan. Time in Japan. How did you find that? Because I know you were playing in there, but you went to third division, team Sanic.
Speaker 2:We were in the top league but towards the bottom of the top league. We lost lots of games Regularly in the relegation playoffs and would always survive and just win.
Speaker 1:What were your big pieces of uptake from that? Did you pick up anything from there, because it's such an interesting place to coach to be, yeah, what did you pick up?
Speaker 2:from. I love the culture and experience, my family, all there. We jumped in. My boys first rugby club was the Japanese rugby club was the only white face in the whole club. Real special experience.
Speaker 2:I thought towards the end of my career I might be able to I knew not switch off from being absolutely desperate to win and be on the edge the whole time. I thought I might be able to see the game in a different way. I couldn't, I couldn't, no, so you didn't enjoy Japan for that. I didn't enjoy some great people at the club, but the atmosphere at the club was more of if we lose because we're playing a big team like Kobe or Sh. More of, or if we lose because we're playing a big team like a Kobe or a Oshiba or Suntory or they're a big team, so it's okay. I couldn't accept that zero and I, I just I found it that a very frustrating time because what's the point in doing something if you're not going to do it properly with anything like yeah. So I found that very frustrating, very grateful for the experience. Like made some, made some great friends.
Speaker 2:Um, I was player coach there my second year. Spoke about play. Yeah, yeah, I. We didn't have a and, for a time period there, a proper interpreter. So I would have to you know, I'd have to i-up menu and everything I put together was in Japanese. I couldn't speak Japanese, but I wanted the Japanese players to feel like it was their pack, taught me to be very concise in my language because I had to be, because I couldn't speak all of these different words, and really got me thinking about how I deliver something in my body language as well. So actually a great, great coaching experience for me. Great coaching experience. But from a playing experience could I switch off? I felt like maybe I didn't think there was enough challenge at the club Interesting.
Speaker 1:So you found that out about yourself came smack you in the face with geez. I'm not as good as I would have hoped for in being able to just chill out at a lower team and just ride the waves, yeah it's not you.
Speaker 2:Look. I knew at the end of my career in England I thought it's the last time for me to take my family on a real adventure. How exciting is to go and do that through footy. Let's go and do that. I know we spoke and the gig came through you and through Jamie Joseph there and didn't know much about the club, but I probably thought it would be a bit more ambitious than it was.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's interesting to know about yourself, mate. I think that's a cool reflection on yourself, mate. Chill out when you're playing other games, mate. I'd hate to think, jeff, while playing games as you mate Monopoly, scrabble, parades, any sort of game you're into.
Speaker 2:As long as I can win, then I love a game.
Speaker 1:Righto mate, the last question I've got for you today is one which I think is a cool question, and that's do you have any beliefs around coaching, or, in fact, rugby in general, that you believe your peers may disagree with? And the reason I'm asking this is because I think a lot of people, particularly coaches, have sort of things in the back of the head which they go. I don't know if I agree with whatever this is, and I just would love the. It's a challenging question. What do you believe in that you believe most of your coaching peers would go? I'm not aligned with that. I don't particularly believe in that.
Speaker 2:Oh, big question, Mons, probably what I said at the start. Around, I feel like lots of, not lots of, but yeah, maybe lots of coaches will try and just copy the best teams and replicate things. I don't believe you have to replicate things. I think you certainly have parts of the game that will stay consistent and there's a way of doing them. But I think the question I always ask myself is can we do things better than they've done before? And you learn things from the top teams, of course, but I think you don't have to be that way. Just because somebody else does it and the top team does it, that doesn't mean you have to do it. Take your learnings, but there might be a brand new way of doing things that's never been done before. That might be the best way.
Speaker 1:Hmm, answer the question. Yeah, that'll do, mate. I'll do, then I'll do for you. There we go, and that will wrap us up, jeffrey. So what a pleasure, mate, that um, I can host you here at our house, mate, and have a quick yarn after dinner. Bloody good to see you, mate. No, I'm looking forward to seeing how this australian forward pack particularly kicks ass over the next three while um, love your work, love you, mate. Um, it's a. I think what you're doing is outstanding and I love the fact that we've got matching tops on.
Speaker 2:It's a great mate I love that when you rocked us today. It's been a high challenge, high support evening here's my big takeaways, jeffrey.
Speaker 1:I've been writing down little notes about things you said and there's three things which I want to just say as my sort of takeaways from this conversation is. I love one, when you talked about the high challenge place is really important. But at the same time, complementing that with a high support place as well and I think the high support aspect is probably something which is left behind when we talk about challenge. Challenge it can be a buzzword for coaches where I'm going to challenge players, but when you offset it with I'm going to actually offer high support as well, I think it's a lovely coaching tool. I think it's really cool.
Speaker 1:Two, I love that that shift of the wording between consistency versus persistency, and I love, for me, that's just creates a little bit more edge around what you're doing.
Speaker 1:Consistency sometimes can be a sort of can be a mediocre flat line, just the same thing over and over again, whereas when you use the word persistent, it just creates that little bit of edge to it, a little bit more drive that you're chasing something, and I think that is outstanding. And the third third point which I think was a great takeaway is that you said quote the game should be an expression of how the players feel, and I took that as part. Of. The coach's job is actually to put players in a place where they feel outstanding. They feel in a place where they want to express themselves. They want to chase kicks back, they want to do the hard work, they want to hit the rucks, they want to do all that unseen stuff, and the coach's job is to bundle that all up and make it happen every saturday without fail, with a bit of persistency from a high challenge, high support. How easy does that?
Speaker 1:sound thanks brother, thanks mate. I'm super appreciated. Geez jama, you're awesome thanks, mate super appreciated cheers. Awesome thanks, mate. Loved it mate all good.