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Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Sam Vesty: Inside Finals Week. Joy, Simplicity & Team Culture
What does championship preparation actually look like? Two days before the European Champions Cup final against Bordeaux, Northampton Saints head coach Sam Vesty pulls back the curtain on his approach to cultivating a winning team culture.
The conversation reveals Sam's refreshingly counterintuitive leadership philosophy. Rather than adding pressure during finals week, he focuses on reconnecting players with their childhood joy for rugby, even announcing the team using photos of players as 10-year-olds. "What would your childhood self want?" becomes a powerful reminder to play with freedom rather than fear.
Sam challenges numerous rugby traditions, including the sacred "captain's run" before matches: "You spend all week prepping to make decisions under pressure and then take all the pressure away the day before the game." Instead, his team plays tennis, spike ball, and other activities that maintain mental sharpness without draining energy.
Most revealing is Sam's approach to mistakes. "I'd rather be decisive and wrong than right" emerges as his team's mantra, emphasizing how hesitation kills performance more than occasional errors. He distinguishes between skill errors (celebrated as learning opportunities) and effort errors (held firmly accountable), creating an environment where players genuinely feel free to express themselves.
The conversation explores how Northampton deliberately builds off-field activities that develop the same skills needed on-field – communication, organization, and connection. From surprising teammates at 1AM to having players share "My Life in Five Photos" presentations, these experiences build the authentic relationships that transfer directly to on-field performance.
Ready to transform your approach to leadership and team culture? Listen as Sam Vesty reveals the delicate art of balancing technical excellence with the mental freedom that championship performances require.
I have had that look in the mirror moment this week. The pressures that come with big gains are, or can be the perceived pressure. Can you know, make you go into your shell, make you go a bit quiet? I'd rather be decisive and wrong than right. I think this is the kick, this is the absolute iron test and this is the absolute key of, when mistakes are happening, how you react. You spend all week prepping to make decisions under pressure and then on the day before the game, you take all the pressure away and you can run and pass the ball whenever you want, and that's in some way supposed to make you better.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I've been hearing and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages leadership. I've been hearing and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Sam Vestey, head coach of the Northampton Saints. A legend of a guy, because this week they are playing in the European Champions Cup final against Bordeaux.
Speaker 2:This recording is taken on the Thursday and in two days time they play their final, the biggest game of the season, and it's testament to the type of guy he is that he comes on the show to tell us about what he's doing in finals week, the culture he's trying to create for his team to be their best on the Saturday.
Speaker 2:Here he is, sammy, what a pleasure it is to have you here. Um well, what's super exciting about this episode, which I'm loving, is you're gearing up to the final against Bordeaux on the weekend, the Champions Cup final, which is the biggest final in Europe, and you're free enough and and cool enough, mate, to sit down with me two days out before the final, and we're going to air this show the day after the final. So it's really exciting, mate, for me around having that perspective of what a head coach has done at Northampton around preparing a team for a week, and also your take on culture. So firstly, sammy, before we get into the normal question, mate, what is it about you that why you're so open? Most coaches, when they're coming to finals week, don't like talking and things like that, but you're here on a podcast sharing mate.
Speaker 1:Well, I think it says more about you, benny, to be honest. I think you could ask me anything and I'd say yes, and it's always great to chat with you. So I was just happy to get a call and have a chat with you and no, I think um on. You know it's you've got to have perspective to um, to all of it, and it's just a game and at the end of the day, and obviously it's a great game, it's a big game that I'm really happy to be part of. But you know life doesn't stop and you know I'm happy to, I love chatting with you, so good opportunity.
Speaker 2:Oh, mate, what a pleasure, what a pleasure. So, mate, let's, before we get to the little cultural piece which I normally ask, I'd like to start with mate. How's the week been leading up to the final against Bordeaux are? So I'd like to start with mate. How's the week been leading up to the final against bordeaux?
Speaker 1:give us a rundown of the feeling and the mood and the camp uh to date yeah, it's um, it's a tough one, because how do you go about, how do you go about managing the um, people's um emotions, people's mindsets, um, and you know for certain, you're pretty much going to get everyone absolutely wanting to go out there and give it their all.
Speaker 1:It's not there's, you know, you're not going to think about that so much.
Speaker 1:It's more about keeping the temper to perhaps the um, the emotional side of it, uh, but pulling on it through the week, but not overdoing it too early in the week.
Speaker 1:So, uh, phil dowson's done a few little bits where he's talked quite early on the week and then some of the boys have have, have said their piece around um, you know the emotional side of it, and then we've put that to bed pretty much quite early on in the week and then concentrated on right, what the actual nuts and bolts that we want to focus on, that we want to be that give us the best chance of um, you know, putting the best us on the pitch versus um Bordeaux, and then, towards the back end of the week, we'll, you know, tug on some of that emotion, um, emotional messaging again. So one of the cool things we actually did was on the. We named the team, but instead of um, we usually do it with pictures, and you know, this week is um ben herring and there's a picture of you that pops up, um. This week it was a picture of your 12 year old self, or like 10-old self, playing rugby or doing whatever.
Speaker 2:Oh, when you announced the team, they came up with your 12-year-old self.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they announced the team with the pictures of their kids and them as kids, and it was part of the messaging was what would your 10-year-old, 12-year-old self want? Knows that you've got this game coming? How would they want you to act? Oh, you know, they'd want you to go out there and just give it and actually everything you've got, wouldn't they? They wouldn't want you to be worried about you know anything. They just want you to give it your absolute best crack and make sure you back yourself. And that was part of um, part of the messaging and um, yeah, hit home as well. It was. It was a light said, fun, because everyone's who's that, who's that? You?
Speaker 2:know they weren't sure who was in the team. Yeah, am I in love it, mate. What, that was a nice. That's lovely, mate. That's is it? And that's kind of that's the balance you're trying to get in a finals week where you want people to go back to that childhood joy of the game. Is that almost where you're going back to?
Speaker 1:Yeah, 100%. And we know we're at our best when we are free, playing rugby with our heads up and attacking and seeing what is in front of us and a real free headspace and with a real positive mindset. So the pressures that come with big gains are, or can be, the perceived pressure can, you know, make you go into your shell, make you go a bit quiet, and we're trying to just get in there really nice and early. That you know that's. That's not who we want to be, and um, part of the part of the chat we've already started talking about on the week is, irrespective of the result on on Saturday when we're having a beer afterwards, what do we want to? What are we going to be happy that we've done and what do we want, how do we want that to feel, whether we've won or lost what you know, what are the things we're going to hold ourselves accountable to?
Speaker 1:And people talked about you know um, being how, putting our game on them, being really positive with our decisions, um, um, being, uh, not going quiet, um, and putting ourselves, our best version of ourselves out there, and and um, so that was, that was again quite a powerful mindset to think about win or lose. Actually, what are you going to hold yourself? What do you want to feel like, what do you want to be? And actually, if you do all those things, if you do all those things that we talked about and you lose, you can go fair, fair play. I gave it my absolute best, no regrets, and you know what? Bordo were excellent on the day, or whatever, and that's a great place to lose from, isn't it?
Speaker 2:yeah, and what about you, sammy? What's um? After the game you're sitting in a beer, regardless of the result. What do you want, as a coach, to come back with? I want?
Speaker 1:us to have the freedom to make decisions. And I know we're going to, you know, I know we're going to go and be really physical because it's a fine. Absolutely, you're going to go and give it absolutely everything you've got. I know we're going to be moving as fast as we can. Can our heads be as clear as they are on a Tuesday afternoon when we're running around on our back pitches, making decisions and striving for that? And I think you can tell when our boys are flying and being really positive with it? And that's why I'm hoping that we get, and then we'll get the best versions of those boys.
Speaker 2:So if you see the players playing with freedom heads up rugby. Like Torbert, you're happy regardless of the result, but you've done your job during the week as coach.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and to a degree there's some more technical bits that I look after um, from a, a launch perspective, so from the line out stuff and some of the moves off, the bits that, um, I'll also want, um, you know, I've worked, I've looked at those and we're going to use these plays so I hope that we get the right pictures from those. That's another more technical element of it and I want to see that. But ultimately we do all of that stuff when our heads are free. All that bandwidth, all of that bandwidth that you have is just based on what's in front of me and what's the best way to attack that picture, or what's in front of me and what's the best way to attack that pitcher, or what's in front of me, what's the best way to defend that pitcher rather than all the other perceived pressures.
Speaker 2:And what is that balance, sammy around, I know you're excellent at that technical piece, but you're also awesome at the people side of stuff. What's the balance in a finals week between chucking a truckload of new moves in versus just making sure the boys are calm? You know that balance of the off-field stuff. Where's your focus?
Speaker 1:Very much about being comfortable and from the moves perspective it's minimal, very minimal, less than a normal week, more lots of plays that we've ran a lot of times. So we have a lot of confidence um, running the stuff we're gonna do and we don't have to think about it too much, we don't have to use much of that bandwidth to go and put these players on pitch and therefore, hopefully, so simple for the guys really, um, hopefully and hopefully freeing them up to. You know, as I say, spend more time with looking up and seeing what's in front of us and connecting and enjoying the experience and feeling relaxed. Yeah, so definitely towards that side of that continuum has been my focus. Well, to hopefully give the boys this week Cool.
Speaker 2:Mate, do you feel any pressure this week as a coach?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, definitely, yeah, you always want the boys to go out there and I get nervous. Um, I, I feel, I feel pressure. It's funny, funny way. I mean, the boys are out there too. I'd be pressured about. Really it's mental. But, um, is there a expectation? Well, there is, because you're in a final and you know the result is a big thing. It is a huge thing, but you've got to know you don't win it by thinking about winning it. You win it by thinking about performing. I hope that the pressures that I am feeling don't come across to the boys and I hope that they have a very consistent me and a very consistent coaching group. Um, saying the same things we say most weeks, or every week, in fact.
Speaker 2:Um, but I think, to be honest, yeah, there are pressures and I am no, obviously, I just um, just the quote you said just before is you're referring to the players, but you said perceived pressure makes you go into your shell and I was just wondering if that is the same potentially for coaches and leaders of groups. Does that pressure make you go into your shell or does it potentially make you be something that you're not sometimes?
Speaker 1:Yes, I think that is definitely something to be aware of, and I have had that look in the mirror moment this week and said I need to be this person. I am every week and it was quite a specific technical bit, but I did have that moment. I think you could go quiet, you could go shy, but you could also try and over-coach and try and over-give and try and win the game on a Tuesday with all these tactical elements. You know, I think that could be quite an easy thing to slip into as well. Um, I've got to give them, I've got the. They've got to see every single line out attack the board.
Speaker 1:I've ever done so that you know I'll tick that box and you know the players after three are just going, yeah, yeah, there's no, there's no, there's no benefit to that at all. But if you've shown them it, and then they you know, if you're the defense coach, you show them it and they score using it you can go well, I showed you it in the week and and it obviously doesn't count for anything, it's mental but I think and we've definitely tried well and, and I think, succeeded to this point of, you know, staying away from that and being very normal, very calm and and um keep our game as simple as as we possibly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, that's mate semi. Knowing you that, I think that's you in a nutshell. You're very calm and composed the whole time, regardless of those man in the mirror moments, mate.
Speaker 2:I think I'm quick to temper, but very strict to lose. Oh, that's quite a good decision. I love it, mate. Well, here's one which I've enjoyed. There was a lovely little snapshot that went around sort of social media after the Leinster game. It showed the two boxers against your old mate Leo, and it showed your coaching group. Have you seen that one where you guys are all laughing and smiling?
Speaker 1:I have seen it yeah.
Speaker 2:And he was head down and it was very. The difference in the two groups couldn't be more contrasted. Is that how you're going to be this weekend, or is that always?
Speaker 1:Look, we always try and have fun. Look, it's diff, you know. Look, that is a time frame, isn't it? I think at the time we're winning, I've scored, just scored, and they've just conceded. I'm sure if you came to a different time we wouldn't all be smiling. But but ultimately we do try and have fun because, like we write and douse, literally this week, saracens, we were playing and we're getting a little bit tetchy and he wrote, and he writes that every week.
Speaker 1:He writes in his book that we're sitting there on our computers, okay, and he says it's just a game and like, you've got to remember that. You've got to remember this is here for fun, it is a game of rugby, it is not, you know, world peace, it is not people. It's not worth getting too stressed about it is. Having said that, it's easy to say that I do get stressed. Of course I do, and sometimes I feel really dreadful, but I try and take that attitude and we do have a lot of fun. Full, but I try and take that attitude and we do have a lot of fun. Yeah, and when you've got douse, who's up for fun? Um, lee radford, who never stops laughing as a defense coach, and you know I'm keelyberg joke as well. So it's you know, that's who we are. I think, and I think that's a strength, I really do think that's a strength. I agree.
Speaker 2:Do you're going to flow through to the team the culture of the team when, when, the coaching staff is a certain way, and do you think that's a strength? I agree, do you think it flows through to the culture of the team when the coaching staff is a certain way, and do you think that's an important way to be?
Speaker 1:100%, 100% we are. Yeah, hopefully a bit that comes through. And I think we one of our big tenants that we have always had and Boydie, who you know pretty well started with him was we've always tried to enjoy going to work as a group, as a whole collective, and try and enjoy every day. Some days are much harder than others, but we actually make time for that enjoyment and enjoying each other's company. So we have mini teams I'm sure a lot of teams do this where they've got four mini teams in a group that they challenge each other over the year and compete for points a bit like a school house system. But some of the stuff we do is absolutely ridiculous. We've got people, if we're playing a French team, they might be eating a cheese and hamburger and necking a glass of red wine and whoever does it fastest wins two points for their team.
Speaker 2:Some of it is utter stupid when is that happening this week, sammy, are you doing that midweek?
Speaker 1:well, do you know what this goes out afterwards, doesn't it? It does? We tried to get this week and we've not managed to do it, unfortunately. Our kit man's a farmer and our pitch has been it's the last game has already happened on our. Our kit man's a farmer and our pitch has been it's the last game has already happened on our pitch. So what we were trying to do is get four teams, get four sheep and put them on the pitch. They're all in a meeting room and then we come out of the meeting room, they're in their mini teams and they've got three minutes and at the end of the three minutes they had to have their sheep in their red colored cones or whatever. Unfortunately, we couldn't make it work, but we strive to do lots of stuff like that, mate.
Speaker 2:Well, still the Cape Dunn's run on Friday, right Like you've got one more day you can get there and short no well, we don't do that so much, and that's another thing we don't do.
Speaker 1:We don't do captain's run anymore. We literally come in and put because you don't get anything from that. That's captain's run is. You spend all week oh, I've got an absolute pet hate about it. Oh, hit me with it on the time. You spend all week prepping to make decisions under pressure and then on the day before the game you take all the pressure away and you can run and pass the ball whatever you want, and that's in some way supposed to make you better. All it does is just tie your legs out. I don't, I don't like it at all. So what we do, you go. What we do instead is we come in and we play little games. So we play um football, tennis or um catching tennis balls off a tennis racket or um like loads of skill hand eye bits. So I'll kick tennis ball, kick balls at people and they're just catching all very spike ball seeing spike ball, great game, no what's one ball?
Speaker 1:spike balls, a little rubber ball sort of yay size. You hit it against the net on the floor like a trampette. Oh yes, you will have seen, I'm sure you have great going. So we, our front rowers, absolutely love it and they are the day before again. They are moving into low positions. They've got, they're watching a ball, they're watching timing of a ball, they're putting the hand to hit it up. It's perfect. It's exactly what hand eye being sharp of mind you know, is. But they're doing it and they're all laughing. You know having fun and competing.
Speaker 2:So we don't do a traditional team run isn't it funny that captain's run is a thing which has been a movement? Isn't it funny that captain's run is a thing which has been a movement, isn't it? And then everyone just adopts it as what you got to do. It's lovely. Yeah, I'm not. You just scrapped it and gone.
Speaker 1:What a waste of time the basis sort of those traditions is yeah, I'm sure you can say this a lot better than I'm going to say it now. But you do things just for the habit of doing them and it's not for the. There's no purpose. And it's not for the. There's no purpose behind it, it's just for tradition, or we've always done it. Well, that's not a good enough reason to do something, is it Sort of?
Speaker 2:yeah, I always mate. I had this great example of that when I coached some ladies that have never played the game before and I said do this warmup? And they said why? And I said because it's a warm-up. And they said but why are we doing it? And it was such a good question and this was on as a young coach. I just reflected on there and goes if you can't ask, answer that question, why are we doing this particular thing? You shouldn't be. Why are you?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, yeah, that's that is it. It's funny, isn't it? Those little moments that stick in your head. And and I had one, a very an example of a coaching, and I was actually doing it with Eddie Jones and it was the I was helping. I was talking to him about I'm doing this stuff with the offloading. I think it's really good. And he said, oh, does it transfer to the pitch? And I went I'm not sure. And he went, oh, does it transfer to the pitch? And I went I'm not sure. And he went well, if it doesn't transfer to the pitch, why are you doing it? And I was like that's a really good point, that's a really good point. I've just come up with this sort of whatever thing that I think is really good. But for what purpose? That was a real light bulb moment.
Speaker 2:Do you do anything in Northampton which is outside the box or different, do you think?
Speaker 1:I think we spend a lot of time on the connection as a group and so every BACs meeting we'll play a game. Every single BACs meeting we'll have, we'll play a game Every single BACs meeting. We win, we lose Sorry, one a week. So it's usually our Thursday one and we've done some, we've done and we'll play a game or we'll do a thing where the boys are presenting. So it's last.
Speaker 1:We do my life in five photos. That's how it sort of started and everyone did their life and some people took it on the wacky journeys and, um, some people pretty you know did it quite um sort of simply. Then we started so we went through everyone. It was great fun and we were learning about people, but people were getting up, standing in front of people for two, three minutes and their voice was being heard, they were being listened to and they had to organize it with the analyst to get the photos to the right place. All of this stuff, I think, is so important to connecting on the rugby pitch. And how can you connect off the rugby pitch and communicate off the rugby pitch if you want to be good at communicating on the rugby pitch? So that then we went into passions, um, which was interesting. Ollie slight, home, did a thing on fishing which was incredible, seeing his massive chub which was like we just we went in so many wacky places. Um, tom litchfield, our young center, talked about how he would one of his passions was murdering people and how he was literally like you can take it wherever you want. Um, that was interesting.
Speaker 1:And then the one we've most recently done was, um, our house. So we talked about Our House as a bit of a theme for sort of our wide breakdown stuff. So we started presenting and the only sort of stipulation was it was called Our House, you could do anything with it. So people showed us around their houses, showed a house that they want to live in, or someone cool had lived in, or something to show the house that they want to live in, or someone taller lived in us. And then the last one we did um, we went in Dingers had a key for George Fairbanks house and we went and we broke. We broke and he had the keys.
Speaker 1:We went in and one o'clock in the morning myself, uh, fin Smith broken with Dingus' girlfriend filming and woke him up. He had a, a thingy cannon. A cannon goes off, boom, pulls this what's it? Confetti cannon all over Ferds, whoa getting out of bed. What's going on? Dingus comes in and then he gives him a quiz, so he starts and then it goes on for a few minutes. Then, uh, finn goes in and he gives him another quiz and he has to guess who it is and all of this stuff. Furbs is like, oh, just waking up. And then I walk in with a bucket full of tennis balls. I'm like right, fathers, get better, buddy chucking tennis balls out. It was done. It's half one o'clock in the morning and it's all filmed.
Speaker 1:So we spend a lot of time enjoying. So that was the first five minutes of our units meeting, but it's taken us to some amazing places, and the bit that I think is so important is the, the social connection, the, the fact that you've actually got to organize something. You've got to speak to people, organize these things to happen and it's all on you. That three, four minutes, whatever it is at the start of the batch unit, um, and people are going to laugh at you. They're going to take the mick out of you. They're going to enjoy it. They're going to cry, they're going to. They're going to enjoy it. They're going to cry they're going to.
Speaker 1:We've had all of those emotions. Honestly, it's amazing and then, but they're all the same things that we need to happen on the rugby pitch. We need, we need to talk, we need to be able to organise, we need to be able to. If you say you're going to do something, you need to do it and be there and do it so and do it. So, yeah, it's been a. That's definitely something that we spent an awful lot of time on and you see, yeah, I love to see the people growers, leaders, talkers, presenters, you know all that. It's great to watch sammy.
Speaker 2:I think you're the first person that's actually broken down that connection, that that when you're doing things that communicate more off-field, connect more off-field, organize more off-field, improves all that stuff on-field, like if you're organizing a slideshow and a presentation, like you're actually honing those skills, aren't you, and then it's leading to better organization of you individually on-field. It's a lovely little connection piece because a lot of you get a lot of pushback sometimes on some of this stuff because you can't necessarily measure the impact that doing this presentation is having. Like a lot of people would argue about, what's the relevance, how's it on field? But what you've just said there is communicating well for two, three minutes in front of the boys or girls up in front of the team is getting you better at doing that on field when something needs to be said.
Speaker 1:Yeah, problem solving, because you're inherently going to have a problem when you try and organize this. You have to solve the problem. That's what you're doing as a rugby player. Every single time you got your eyes up, whether you're attack, defending, got the ball, not got the ball. You're solving problems, love it.
Speaker 2:And mate, how do you get that balance you talked about and this is probably an area where some coaches may struggle with this aspect is you're prepared to go around to one o'clock in the morning to one of the guys' houses to help that connection. It doesn't go very far, but how does that balance work? Because obviously you're the head coach? How do you place yourself there? Because obviously you've got to have those conversations about selection.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the balance I have. Yeah, that is tough. Having said that, James Ram Phil Dowson did give James Ram my keys and he was in my house, so and he did that. Who lives in a house like this, which is an old British program? I don't know if it translates the Southern.
Speaker 2:Hemisphere, Just mention on the hill.
Speaker 1:Sammy, he gave it, he did all of them. He was all like, oh, look at the acres, but no, that is a fine line to. That is a fine line to. That is a tough one. That is a tough one. I think you've got to.
Speaker 1:But you've got to be that person. I think I have to have some tough conversations, but I'm not. I'm gonna have that tough conversation and it's not gonna affect the fact that we can then go and have some fun in another room. Do you know what I mean? And and it is, there are and it won't. They won't all be. You know, on your side all of the time I get that and there'll be some resentment.
Speaker 1:But the longer we do it, the more consistent, the more consistently. You are that person and you are that it's. It's not a. I don't see it as a, as a problem. You still have to have the tough conversations. Of course you do um, but I just don't think that should stop you enjoying your life. They, the players, don't think you're doing it personally to them. You know, it's not, it's a job, it's a um. It's. That's what we're here to do. And um, I like to hopefully always give them ways to improve, to give themselves the best chance of getting back in the team, and I'll always strive to help them do that. Um, but you're dead right, it is the. I think that is probably the the toughest part, or one of the tougher parts.
Speaker 2:Yeah well, I think for you probably particularly, that's a lot of your inherent personality, isn't it like you love that sort of stuff? So it's you being genuinely you right, and I think everyone realizes pretty quick that you're not being that's. This is just. Everyone knows that's, that's how you love that stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's, it's easy, yeah, and I think that is that authenticity which you have to be authentic. If you're not, if you're not the guy who likes that, appreciate other people perhaps do and get someone to to, you know, push the interaction, the presenting stuff, do you know? I mean, I think it's important and just because I do like it and I do enjoy the games, the connection stuff. Still, the best thing I've ever done was your bus tour. By the way, do you remember that you hired the bus when we were traveling around, was it? We were in traveling around.
Speaker 2:That's right, and we just all the games that each each stop all the games.
Speaker 1:We stopped in a field and what are you doing? We have to stay out still don't know what.
Speaker 2:Those four people. That's right. That's right. That was we. That was in the day back back in the day, semi, where there's no phones, right, so you didn't have to worry about people taking videos and photos along the way, because you wouldn't be doing those bus trips.
Speaker 1:Well, why not? I mean, just make sure you're not. You have to be careful, of course you do, why not? It's fun, isn't it? It's like, why did you play rugby, didn't when your 10 year old self didn't start playing rugby to, but you missed a summer time. They played it because they loved it, and it's still like, I guess, and they loved the camaraderie and mate. Honestly, you were, you are probably still, the world's best um social sec. Give you that love it, mate.
Speaker 2:Well, I think it's important for culture. Mate, like um, and I'm a massive believer in that, the environment you're in, yeah, affects the way you do stuff and the way you play. So, with that in mind, mate, what's? We normally start with this question, but we've we've sidetracked. So, sammy, what is your definition of, of culture? I love asking this question because everyone is different pieces to it what?
Speaker 1:what a whopper of a question that is.
Speaker 1:Um, I think I came around to in my head that culture is ultimately just a word, because everyone has a culture. It's bad, it's good, it's mixed, it's you know, it's got all of those those things in it and everything you're doing, the ecosystem is a finely balanced bit that delivers this thing that we're going to call the culture. Um, so I sort of started asking myself questions, like when I'm asking your question about what is, what is culture? It's like, would your culture, I think, this? Would your culture allow mistake? Does your culture allow mistakes? And on everyone's level? There you could put a mark. It's a continuum, isn't it? Yes, absolutely, you can make as many mistakes as you like. Absolutely no, if you make a mistake, you are bombed out the session and you know we all sit somewhere along that continuum and I think you take a hundred thousand and loads of loads of those elements and we all sit on different parts of that.
Speaker 1:And it's the bits, the no-transcript. I've hit a few of them already like, we absolutely, um, want to have fun, we absolutely want to be the hardest working, the hardest working team out there. Um, you know they're two, actually, um, massively fundamental ones for us. We want to win, we want to, we want to be connected, and that's we have our dna and one of the things that goes through our dna is um is connected we. We actually use dna because the um, james crick, is actually a northampton boy. So he discovered dna and he went to the local school. He then went to leicester uni and that's where he discovered it. So it's a pretty cool fact, isn't it? Yeah, so I know it's just I was thinking about a really an interesting question. I know the things that I want to see, we want to see is in our culture, and Douse is so good at this, and we have a um, a sports psychologist as well, um, who we lean on, and Douse is very good at this, and we lean on this and um, you know I'm, I know how I sort of want is what I really appreciate out of our culture, and so we do it. Do you know what as well?
Speaker 1:When I was thinking about it, it takes, you have to nurture it, you have to go after it, and it doesn't always feel as organic as perhaps you'd like, but that's how you start to get to those places where people feel comfortable. Are people in your culture happy to be who they are or are they trying to be who they think you want them to be, or are they trying to be this? Because I'm not saying either is right or wrong either on any of these continuums, but you can manipulate one a little bit and it affects the ecosystem. But they are quite. You know everyone has them If you want to have a really good culture of development skills. But every time the ball hits the floor you're shouting or you know you're probably not going to, you're not going to get the, you're moving the ecosystem in the wrong way. You're not quite getting the balance right. I mean, what's your, what's yours on? What's your definition? What's your sort of?
Speaker 2:well, I'll come back to one of your points. But, mate, I'm very much of ecosystem. I like the definition of culture potentially being the same as biology. You know, like a yogurt culture, where it's an environment suitable for growth. So, like you know, back in those day old days and if you used to do it used to make a yogurt before bed we did now house, you have one of those sachets, you put it in, you stir it up with water, you put a little culture starter in, you let it sit overnight and that bacteria's fed on itself and it's grown into this whole different thing which tastes really good.
Speaker 2:And essentially I love that concept of environment suitable for growth, like a Petri dish, and a scientist is essentially putting stuff in that Petri dish and seeing if it reacts to that ecosystem and if it does, bacteria grow and grow and grow and feed on itself and become something different. Likewise, if you chuck something in there, the scientist and it kills whatever's in there and the environment dies and scientists is just basically working out what you add to that to make it grow differently. And then that's how it's an experiment. And I reckon we're the same as coaches, where our team is our petri dish and we're sprinkling the little bit of difference in as the leaders like sprinkle, let's see how that goes.
Speaker 2:Oh, yep, that took off and whatever we did, like your games and your chasing sheep around the field. You don't know how that's going to connect a team, but you tried it. Oh wow, look how everyone came together on that one. Or it could have the complete opposite in your environment, because each environment's different and I think that's a I like that analogy because it has a link to you know, biology and like sort of a science, because a lot when you talk about culture, it's generally not considered science. It's considered sort of a science, because a lot when you talk about culture, it's it's generally not considered science. It's considered sort of airy fairy in a potential way, because you don't necessarily know what's going to happen.
Speaker 1:But let this, like a science experiment, try a little thing, see how it goes well, I say it's so, it is so not, I know, I know exactly what you're saying, but it is so the most important thing. And you, well, at Leicester, when it was absolutely killing it, they had a culture and they knew exactly what that culture was and they drove it so hard and you knew what it was and it was ultimately the thing that gave them all the success. But you can talk about it in an airy fairway, but it's so important, it is the most important thing. I don't. You can have bad cultures, obviously, like I don't. I should even say that what's a really bad culture? Um, I mean, the nazis would have been a bad culture, would it not? I don't, but like that was, but it's still a culture. Do you know? I mean, it's still so. The word there is, it's just a word to describe the environment it needs. Well, it is a good culture, or cool. That's culture that gives you growth.
Speaker 2:Um, I like your statement, mate about. You said like a question around culture is does your culture allow mistakes? Where does Northampton sit on that? Where's your philosophy on that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're on the continuum are you that we can make skill errors? We can make skill errors all the time because that's how you get better. So if you're learning to drive, you're going to stall a car. You can't expect it to just be work perfectly straight away, and that's the same with learning anything. So if we're putting our skills under pressure, we need to accept and expect and hope for mistakes, um, and not be scared of making mistakes, um. So very, very important and I think I think that's a really, really important if you want people to get better how you react to mistakes of that nature are vital or very important, and that's what people pick up on.
Speaker 1:The other type of mistake is not focused or not working back hard enough or not running hard enough or not effort errors. You could term them as, or that sort of mistake. I'd go very, very hard at um and be hold people, hold people very accountable to to that. So I think there are those two and I think you've got to manage them very differently and if, how would you manage, particularly the skill era, like, yeah, how do you manage?
Speaker 1:that I honestly think this is the the biggest key to, if to who, you are as a coach. I think this is the absolute iron test and this is the absolute key of, when mistakes are happening, how you react, because if you can stand up in the front and say I want to play the ball, we're going to play the space. Back yourselves all of these cool words, and as soon as you put on a pressure, the ball hits the deck. To play the space, um, back yourselves all of these cool words, and as soon as you put an impression, the ball hits the deck. If you go look after the ball, you've just lost everything you've said, everything you've said.
Speaker 1:So I think that's such a and you know what, what breaks me. Just look after the ball. What are you saying to someone? If you're saying that you're telling them to make sure the ball is really tucked close to them and if they're in any doubt, they're going to do this. But what? That's such a negative way of um. You know learning how to play with the ball, how to manipulate a defender, whether to pass, whether to draw him, whether to carry, whether to all of those things and the language I think we use around that and how we react to those bits is.
Speaker 2:How would you? How would do you tweak your language? Cause, earlier you said perceived pressure makes you go into your shell. And if that perceived pressure is the coach going? Oi, look after the ball. Yeah, it's a perceived pressure. How do you do it? How do you do it?
Speaker 1:I would, yeah, I would sell it. So if they've done, if we're trying, I'd celebrate the bit that they were trying to do. So if they're trying to catch the ball out there and they drop it and they fumble it and it doesn't quite go, I'd be. That's a good mistake. We're happy with that. You know, we'll actually celebrate the fact that they've tried to catch the ball out there. If they're running the line, we are getting better. We are getting better by putting ourselves under that pressure.
Speaker 1:We had a session on yesterday, um, and we were into this drill and we were doing it and it looked pretty. But it was at 60 and it looked pretty. It was like, oh great, this is great. Whatever, right now, we're gonna do it 100 miles an hour. We're gonna go as fast as we can. The first three times we did it, or the first couple of times we did it, we do one. Well, the next one, ball hits floor, ball hits floor. I was like, right, boys, that last 30 seconds is the bit that's making us better and like, really celebrate, really go after that. As a we're, we're working really hard.
Speaker 1:The skills you know, don't? It doesn't really matter whether you're getting right, you're going to be getting better. What you, what I really don, what I really think you've got to avoid, is perfect rugby sessions and as a coach, it's quite easy to want your session to go well. But what does that mean? What does you actually want? You want everyone to make the passes, and you know the world's not like that. Rugby is not like that. You need a good session should look chaotic, pressured, with some good bits. You have to have a good element of good bits and positive, but you have to have mistakes, otherwise there's just not enough pressure, and I think that's one of the sort of bits for coaches who perhaps aren't confident. You want it to look perfect, you want every passion to be on the money and um, and you've sort of got to get out of that mindset how do you get more confident in that as a coach, sam Sammy, because that's a reality.
Speaker 2:As a young coach particularly, you want everything to be perfect. Because you're not confident, how do you get that confidence to go? Yeah, I can handle this. This is great pressure. I'm loving what's happening here. Is it just time? Yeah?
Speaker 1:I think there's an element of time You'll see little bits of people when they're doing it under pressure they'll get a little bit better and celebrating the ones where you do get it, when you do get it right or that person does get it right, and keeping hold of those in your head, and as long as the other mistakes are in the right vein, you've got to believe. I think you've got to believe it first, because if you don't believe it, you're always going to be. You're not authentic to yourself, are you? So I think the first thing is believe it and then celebrate the effort of people trying to get better at it, not the execution of it the effort of the pressure that they're under, and celebrate the fact that we're under pressure. We're so much better now because we've been under that pressure.
Speaker 2:Love it Celebration. There's a lot to be said about celebration. Yeah, good things. Well, sammy, has it ever, not, ever not worked like? Have you ever had any moments around the culture on this side of stuff where you've got it wrong?
Speaker 1:yeah, loads of times, loads of times, and I think you've got to own that as well, and you know so, you know so your meeting goes wrong, or um, you try and set something up that you hope's gonna stick with the boys, but it doesn't any examples of that specifically?
Speaker 2:you would have put something out there for sure, which you went yeah, oh, gosh, yeah lots, um, yeah, but do you know what?
Speaker 1:I'm a little bit like a little bit water off a duck's back. You know why? Because I'm going to put so much out there that some of it's going to stick. I think, yeah, there are. And then there are definite times when you get things wrong From some of our stuff. That we do doesn't always hit, doesn't always land, and it's three, four minutes of tedium or boredom, or or you know it can be, it just goes wrong when you think, all right, well, we can, we can make that better, but own it, I think, would be probably what I would yeah, I've seen you do that a lot, mate, where you just go, oh well, oh well, yeah, I think it's interesting.
Speaker 1:On the I think people are scared of that on the coaching pitch as well. You want, you expect everything to go really well and you set up a drill, a game or whatever. You're sort of trying to do. Oh my gosh, I've done some dreadful stuff. Dreadful stuff, but just own it. You know right, I wanted to try to see this work. Well, that doesn't work. We're going to change this and just go with it and be really open to open to making mistakes and learning from those mistakes. I think that is the best way to be better at coaching.
Speaker 2:Yeah, stress yourself, try things, yeah, and that's that's a hard thing for a lot, of, a lot of coaches pretty young coaches to embrace the chaotic nature of coaching rugby, particularly because it's not a closed skill sport, it's a chaotic sport.
Speaker 1:I know, yeah, and then I, how do we coach? Do we coach it in a as in a close nature? Do we put cones on the floor and tell people to go and stand on the cones? That, but that's true, isn't it? But we, but people, we do it, and then we coach in a drill nature where we're going to give them three defenders on these cones and then, and then you're going to attack them. That's not a decision-making drill, because you've already. Do you not have cones? Do you remove cones? The cones are there to mark a pitch. I wouldn't. No, everything would be moving start points because everything moves.
Speaker 2:Oh right, okay you don't use them at all. It just doesn't Well. No.
Speaker 1:I don't. Very, very, very rarely, very, very rarely, very, very rarely. Because the game doesn't ever start from a static point. There's never one point where you know exactly where the ball's going to be. Even a scrum moves this, and the ball probably doesn't come out anyway. Or even a line out moves up and down, doesn't it? It's never static.
Speaker 1:So to be in the right place, you have to make micro adjustments to be in the right place. So every little starter, rather than start on the cone, will be someone acting as a breakdown and will move a yard left, a yard right, three yards forward, four yards back. So everyone has to adjust. Yeah, yeah, because the nature of it isn't it. And actually to try and do as many things in an open environment as possible, because that's the nature, that's what you're running around in. Yeah, I think it's really. You can't learn decision making skills in a closed nature, when the game is open, when the game is an open game of rugby, because most of the most, of the most of the learning, I think, around decision making um comes from seeing being able to see a three-on-two materialize before it happens. But if you're doing a drill where you've got two defenders on cones and three attackers here. You've taken all of that away. You've said this is a three-on-two and given it to them. It's like, yeah, if you ever do a breakdown drill, are you really doing a breakdown drill? And I'm not saying you do have to do breakdown drills, don't get me wrong. But if you do a breakdown drill, you have just told everyone in there that you are going to do a breakdown drill. When does that ever happen in a game of rugby? Because if I'm running next to you, benny, you better be hoping I'm passing, thinking the game of rugby, because if I'm running next to you, benny, you better be hoping I'm thinking I'm passing you the ball. You know what I mean I do. And if you're not, then but obviously, safety, skill of the, the, the skill element of a breakdown, I think that's probably a tough one because you can't just go live at everything, because you have but our broken bodies everywhere, but decision-making, we, we definitely can.
Speaker 1:So a huge um advocate for learning through games. I think you get a deeper, a deeper learning. A context gives you a deeper learning. And then, if I sit, so we're talking about I think this is how this links back to this um being connected as well on the pitch, off the pitch. So if I'm playing a game and I can play the game of touch, I'm on the left of this breakdown. I can see if I move to the right. I'm going to create that three on two. So I've seen what's going to happen. I now need to communicate this to maybe a nine. I need to communicate this to the 12. I need to organize what they're going to do. They need to be organizing off me. They need to be problem solving, all these things communicating that we were doing in the meeting room and we're, you know, in a very different context, but they're the same skills. They're talking, you know, they're talking to people and I think that's why I think that connects really nicely and that's why I'm big advocate for learning through games.
Speaker 2:That's awesome and even I love how you brought it back to like the off-field games and things you do, because it flows, it connects, doesn't it Right? Right, sammy, I've got two more questions for you, brother, before we wrap up, and one of them is about you, mate. So you've obviously a little bit of context. For a lot of people you're actually a very. You obviously played a truckload for leicester 157 caps, a lot for bar, 62, a couple caps for england. But you also were a cricketer for leicesterhire, wicketkeeper, batsman. You're a very handy tennis player.
Speaker 2:You're a musician slow progress, the band with a few other fellas from I believe they've got a mention. That's epic, epic, and I've actually been to one of your concerts. It was outstanding. But, mate, you've got a huge off-field stuff yourself where you do a lot more. Do you think that's important for you is now into your coaching? That's this balance and perspective you've got in the rest of your life and is it something you think's important for you know professional sports people to have, because it's not something which is promoted as much in a sort of era where specializing early what's your?
Speaker 1:yeah, people on the balance I don't like the specializing early thing. I really don't like that. But that's probably a chat for another day. I'm, I think, um, I certainly need to be doing other things, um, away from rugby, for I think that's the way. I'm a little bit wired.
Speaker 1:Um, I had kids when I was, you know, jamie, but I had kids when I was really young, and coming home from work and having a real perspective, just getting some perspective, is whatever I'd done at work, coming through the door and having some young kids and I'm 22. Like um, it's a different world. It's sort of it's certainly, I think, kept me calm and level. I think that's what it does. Um, I do. I do still like to keep busy. I think that's very much um, my head. Keep busy, I think that's very much my head, my head. I think there were, you know, I think, each to their own, though as well. I wouldn't want to try and say that you have to, but I do like to, you know, keep busy, learn a few things and read and all that sort of stuff. But all I'm saying is everyone's got to be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's a great point.
Speaker 1:Fortunately, I'm no better at the guitar, although I do still try, mate.
Speaker 2:It was awesome. It was really awesome what you guys did. George Schroeder, olly Smith, dan Hipkus Love it Righto, mate. The last question is one that I've been asking a lot of, and it's just mate, you'll be a good man for this.
Speaker 1:What's one thing that you believe that you reckon your peers would disagree with? Oh, I should have given this one some more thought. Um, I think that is. I think it's quite easy to over coach people, and I think a lot, of a lot of coaches wouldn't would think more is better, and I'm becoming probably not less is better, certainly, but better and and consistent is better, um, and I think that would probably be a consistent has been a consistent is better, yeah, rather than I think. And one thing that I would not. I don't think everyone would agree with that.
Speaker 1:It's quite easy, if someone makes a bad decision on a two-on-one, showing them a two-on-one oh, you know, he could have done that, he could have done that. Well, ultimately, do they know how to pick off two on one? And if they do, you don't need to have that conversation, you don't need to show them and I think, perhaps not the best example, but what it does. When you, when you, I think when you go after people's decisions, it's quite a vulnerable place. The people that are actually making the decisions on the board are quite vulnerable. That if you say that that's a bad decision Whereas. So I think you have to treat that with kid gloves and I think some of my peers perhaps would, and I think I was guilty of this early on that you show them every time they didn't make the right decision Rather than teaching them the global bit of are you going at the line? Are you square? Are you looking at the cues of the defenders? Yeah, all right. Well then, you're going to make good decisions, you're going to make bad decisions and we'll live with that and be consistent with that message.
Speaker 1:I think that's really powerful and it's when you can and I did this when I was starting out showed a lot of people, a lot people, a lot of clips of them not doing it well and or making bad decisions actually just erodes that confidence to make decisions.
Speaker 1:And I think that and I've sort of come up with a philosophy of what I want to try and help people be and which is highly skilled, confident decision makers. That's sort of what I'm trying to grow and create and the confident bit is way, way the most important bit of that we've come up. We've started talking in our backs group now about I'd rather be decisive and wrong than right oh, yeah, oh it's. And people being decisive, people don't wait, trying to get the right decision and be sorry, but we can't swear, be decisive and like we could give to whether we're getting it right or wrong. We'll have a look and we can look at some cues afterwards, but I think that's such a good place to play rugby from oh, decisive, and wrong is better than right a lot of the times, because it's the confidence piece yeah, and you do it, you just do it.
Speaker 1:just yeah, I mean decisive, and right is really bloody good yeah well, that's the idea, yeah, but yeah, but don't worry about being decisive and wrong, just be decisive you know, Don't waste time thinking of decisions because the game happens so quick.
Speaker 1:Just go and go and do it and be it. Yeah, I guess so, and then it's my job. Put us in a million situations like that, where we're going to go and be decisive and right, decisive and wrong, decisive and wrong, decisive and right, decisive and right, and then over weeks and months we're making way more decisive and good decisions than decisive and wrong decisions on the whole.
Speaker 2:Do you know what I mean On the whole of that sort of yeah, man, I think that's a big one, because the more critiquing like you said you did earlier the more you lose that decisive nature, don't you?
Speaker 1:because they're second guess yeah, yeah, and I think if you ask anyone what do when you're playing at your best, it's not yeah. You definitely has the word decisive and it was some form of clear. You know I'm backing yourself and you don't want to erode away at that. People are vulnerable on that decision making stuff sammy, what an absolute pleasure I.
Speaker 2:I love that last statement, mate. Decisive and wrong is bit is some is often better than being right. So love it, mate. Absolutely love itestey. What an absolute pleasure having you on this morning on the eve or the two-day eve of the Champions Cup final and, mate, it's always a pleasure catching up. Absolutely love it. Looking forward to this show airing the day after the final. Any predictions, mate? Just to put it out there.
Speaker 1:No predictions. I think we're going to go out there and, as I said, I hope we are free and back ourselves, and hopefully you'll see what that looks like. They're very good as well, so it's going to be a cracker.
Speaker 2:Thank you, brother. What a privilege. Cheers, mate. Here are my final three takeaways from a conversation with Sam Vestey.
Speaker 2:Number one use the off-field experience to develop what you want on the field. Sam talked about three things that was big for him on field Communication, organisation and connection between players. He realised that if he wanted that better on field, he would start and have to get them doing those things more off the field to practice. If you want better communicators on the field, you need to get them communicating off the field. If you want your players to be better organized on field, give them the experience of organizing things off the field. If you want your players to be better connected on the field, you need to make sure they're practicing being connected off the field. If you want your players to be better connected on the field, you need to make sure they're practicing being connected off the field. And this is a wonderful thing because sometimes these things around culture are seen as unrelated to on-field performance. But Sam's example with the Northampton Saint proves that there's real value in doing these things. What you do off the field definitely grows what happens on the field.
Speaker 2:Number two decisive and wrong is better than right. Wow, that's a powerful statement Decisive and wrong is better than right. What Sam's saying is he wants his players to go for it. He wants no hesitation, he just wants them to back themselves and go, and so his coaching is about as long as you are decisive, it can't be wrong, and I love that. And if you repeat that over and over again in time, your players will eventually get to decisive and right, and that's a wonderful outlook to take to your coaching and your leading.
Speaker 2:Number three, the iron test, as Sam calls it, and this is when mistakes happen. How you react says everything about you and your culture. If you want, for example, your players to play with freedom, but then you scold them when they try something and fail, then you are coaching a double standard. You are saying one thing and then acting out something completely different and in a team perspective. That gets seen through really quickly and you lose your respect and rapport with your team. So the iron test is when mistakes happen. How you react says everything about you and your culture. So have a think about that the next time you're about to say something after a mistake. We'll see you next time.