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Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Phil Davies: Inside the Mind of World Rugby’s Director of Rugby
What makes rugby's culture so distinct, and how does it translate across different countries and contexts? In this fascinating conversation, Phil Davies—Director of Rugby at World Rugby—shares wisdom gleaned from 35 years at every level of the game, from player to global administrator.
Davies reveals the core elements that build winning team environments: "An environment of belonging where people feel trusted, respected, and safe." But as he explains, these aren't just platitudes—they must be embodied through consistent actions and behaviors. Drawing from his experiences coaching Namibia to two World Cups (including their historic first win against Uruguay), Davies offers remarkable insights about adapting leadership approaches to different cultural contexts while maintaining rugby's universal values.
The conversation takes us behind the scenes of global rugby leadership, where Davies employs his "Three C's" approach—communicating, connecting, and collaborating—to balance tradition with evolution. He addresses the delicate balance between keeping rugby's gladiatorial essence while ensuring player safety, and shares why understanding a country's unique "DNA" is crucial for developing teams that local communities can recognize themselves in.
Perhaps most compelling is Davies' perspective on coaching development and the patience required for meaningful change. "Sometimes people think it takes two weeks, but sometimes it'll take three months or three years," he reflects. His passion for technical coaching and developing what he calls a "tackle culture" throughout global rugby reveals where he sees the game's greatest growth opportunities.
Whether you're a coach, player, or simply fascinated by leadership and culture, this episode offers powerful lessons about building environments where people thrive, adapting to different contexts, and remembering that in any endeavor, "The main thing is the main thing."
How do you instill great cultures? That flows down not just to a team, but to every country that plays rugby on the planet.
Speaker 2:There is a great integrity in rugby. I think there's a passion, I think there's a discipline, there's a respect between players and referees, for example. It's all basic stuff. They wanted GPS. They didn't understand monitoring. They didn't have a clue about monitoring. Gps is expensive. Look, we're always looking at safety spectacle, right, we're always looking about balancing. So it's really respecting and understanding global cultures, you know, and then the values of the game.
Speaker 1:Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I've been hearing and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Phil Davies. We've gone straight to the top with this one. The big cheese, the big kahuna, the head honcho. Phil is the Director of Rugby at World Rugby. Phil is an absolutely iconic guy with an epic playing career for Leilani in Wales and an even more epic coaching career, including the likes of Leeds, scarletts, cardiff, worcester and my personal favourite, namibia. Phil is a big picture thinker, perfectly suited to world rugby's ambition to make the game more attractive. He has 35 years of global leadership and is such a top man and his passion is so, so clear. Here he is. Righto Phil. What a pleasure to have you here on the Culture Culture podcast. We start with. This question is how do you define culture?
Speaker 2:Pleasure, ben, great to be here and great to see you again. It's a good question that I think, like I've always looked at, you know, team spirit, sort of work ethic, and nobody would be surprised by those two sort of values, if you like. And on top of that, it's creating the environment around those two things. Create the environment where environment of belonging I think is important, where environment of belonging I think is important, you know, people feel trusted, they feel respected and they feel safe as well. You know which is really important. So I think that's how sort of I would, you know, define a culture around those things. You know, an environment of belonging where people feel, you know, trusted, respected and safe, you know. So belonging is a key word for me really, ben. I think around that team spirit and work ethic, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and sometimes it gets labelled as like when you're talking those sort of words as a sort of airy fairy thing that's very hard to measure. Do you agree with that or do you think it's got real value in a team?
Speaker 2:Well, I think it's got value if it's sort of created in the right way. I agree, like you, no doubt we've been in so many different clubs where all these photos of the wall and these famous settings and all that, and you think, well, you look at the behaviour and it's got no reminiscence to that, you know. So the words have sort of really got to you know, got to be highlighted by the behaviour. You know, and the team spirit and the work ethic. For me is maybe when you know you've got to defend for 20, 30 phases, if you like, right, that's maybe a bit extreme, extreme, but that happens in our games sometimes. You know when it's defending, you know your try line, if you like. You need to have people who are connected, where they don't work hard for each other and push each other and challenge each other to. You know, to come to come on the right side of adversity because you've got to defend, as we both know, 20 odd phases five meters from your line is not easy. Uh, and I think you have to have that connection between, between, between each other, you know, and I think, and that work ethic, and I think that comes from from, from, you know, team bonding sessions, training sessions that are quite tough.
Speaker 2:You know, we used to do a lot of hill running in leeds. I used to have. I used to need to have a taxi to get up from the bottom to the top of the hill, but it was. It was some of my conditioning coach, steve carter god bless him, it was, it was an ex soldier really and he instilled, you know, the hard work. Hard work it was. What did he say? Train hard, fight easy. That was his famous saying.
Speaker 2:You know, and you know, running up the hill at Rounday Park in Leeds on a Saturday morning in the summer, or sometimes in the dead of winter, was not easy and the boys had to push themselves.
Speaker 2:They had to work hard with each other and sometimes if people were flagging a little bit, we didn't worry about the time they were getting to the top of the hill, we were worried about them getting to the top of the hill together, and sometimes we'd run with the slowest guy, if you like to get to the top as a team. So everything we tried to do there was all about fostering togetherness and and and under pressure, if you like, or togetherness when it's uncomfortable. So it's that being, you know, uh, being comfortable being uncomfortable type of thing. You know, so I, when you see those type of behaviors and you know you see the way the families connected, the clubs and all that sort of stuff I think is that's when you, when I think you have a good culture, when everybody's prepared to work hard for each other and do the uncomfortable things together to help your teammate.
Speaker 1:Basically, well I think how do you, how do you know if people are working hard Phil in a team, I think.
Speaker 2:I think it's about understanding, you know, if people are working hard, phil, in a team.
Speaker 2:I think it's about understanding the direction you want to go in terms of your standards.
Speaker 2:Really, we used to look at you know, steve used to do this, or we've done it with Namibia we used to look what success looked like and that could look like, you know, it could look like an 85% standard in terms of catch pass, for example, or it could look at an 85 plus percent standard towards the meters per minute or whatever fitness standards you were trying to set, or whatever success looked like at a Rugby World Cup or in the Heineken Cup or in the Premiership in England or in the URC in that competition. So it's knowing what success looks like and whatever sort of medium that is. Ben is pushing towards that really, because it's not easy. You know, whenever you're being a champion as you know, if you're being first out of 16 or first out of the top 14 in France, for example you've got to be doing something that's exceptional, above the rest, because everybody wants to win, but there are only so many that can, clearly. So it's having those standards and understanding what success looks like and pushing towards that, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and do you think because not everyone's coaching that listens to this is coaching elite level players but do you think knowing what your success looks like, actually with a measurement, is quite a good way to keep the team with a shared goal? Like so, for example, if just getting to the hill in under two minutes is your overall team, regardless of what elite-level runners can do, putting a measure on it is that sort of helpful for team culture, do you reckon?
Speaker 2:I definitely think it's helpful because perhaps we'll come on to that later when we talk a little bit about Namibia because you're not always going to win every single game in a season always going to win every single game in a season and sometimes if you're subservient to the scoreboard, where the W and the L means if you've got a W you're going to enjoy your beer, If you've got an L, you're not going to enjoy your beer so much after the game. But I think if you get to a stage where you think, look, you know this is what success looks like and we're on a journey towards it I know people talk sometimes about a journey, but I just think it's important to retain motivation for playing and training and you go in there and you say, look, yeah, OK, we lost the game. But when you look at some of our success rates our tackle technique was pretty good, Our catch pass was pretty good but sometimes you just get outskilled by teams who accept that. However, you should never be outwilled. That's the key for me. It's the enthusiasm to get up off the floor quickly when you've made a succession of tackles or you've made a succession of carries. Whatever it might be, is important.
Speaker 2:But I think those measures are crucial to keeping, you know, the team developing and keeping the team on a journey, because you know you will some days just get outskilled and you've got to hold your hand up and go, okay, fair enough, but you know we hit some of our measures and we'll keep working and we'll be better next time, so to speak. It's trying to keep as much objectivity in what you're doing as possible, I believe, because you know you can. Only you can't shout the players all of the time. You know if you feel they're they're, they're losing a bit of momentum. I used to like to create some healthy tension to say, look, we're not coming, we're not coming up to the levels we need to be and you have to challenge and use the data to prove it. Now we know we can be better, so let's go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's really a nice accountability piece for coaches to take you away from, not just the wins and losses, but if you win, did you hit your personal standards and your personal measures? I think that's lovely. And, Phil, you talk about the journey. Now you've been on a heck of a journey for the last 35, 40 years. You've gone from playing a gazillion games for Lidlani 329, I believe, or might even be more, 46 for Wales then on to coach for 26 years professionally and now one of the highest global administrators of the game. So how has culture in your eyes, changed over the last 40 years? In your experience, what's been the goods and bads and what are some of the key things for you which rugby has over other sports?
Speaker 2:which rugby has over other sports. I think you still, from what I said at the beginning, ben, I think you still can't get away from you know you need a team spirit, you need to want to play for each other. You know with each other, for each other, you need to have a work ethic. I think that's hugely, hugely important. And remember, the main thing is the main thing, which is rugby. I always listen to. You know a couple of South African coaches. You know when they've done what they've done more recently is we always got to keep the main thing, the main thing, which is sticking together, having good team spirit and working hard. You know for each other.
Speaker 2:And I think, then, the other point I've I've really learned is is rugby is different in other parts of the world. You can look at the posts and the markings and the ball and the teams 15 against 15. You know different color jerseys and all that, but everybody has a dna, if you like. Every country has a DNA. The way they live their lives, for example, in Great Britain, it's all that stiff upper lip and just get on with the job or whatever, but it's different in other parts of the world. So I think, when you're building teams, I think you have to understand the DNA of the country that you're working in, if you like, and also then try to look at creating a culture and a playing philosophy that fits into that DNA. Like when we were in Leeds, for example, we used to have the. You know, yorkshire is similar to Wales. They like a beer, they like a sing song. We were in Leeds, for example, we used to have the. You know Yorkshire similar to Wales. They're like a beer, they're like a sing song and what that sort of Yorkshire Grichters. They used to call it that hard work. You know, come on lad, get on with it. You roll your sleeves up work.
Speaker 2:So what I think, you know, what I think is important, is remembering that and creating a team that the local people can recognize in themselves. I think that's that's crucial. That is because I listen to so many coaches that go into a country uh, say they're a welshman, and they go into, I don't know, canada, or namibia, or, or, or kenya, whatever it might be, and they try and you know they try and impose a playing philosophy or they impose a culture without really because it's their culture, you know from where they live tick and try to create a team that gives, that is recognizable by those people, um, and can give the country you know some pride, if you like, because sport is a brilliant common denominator of making you know countries feel proud about themselves. You know, um, I think that's that's vital, that that's that's crucial. I think that's sort of that's sort of learned and that's crucial.
Speaker 2:I think that's sort of learned and that's been pretty consistent, ben, and where I think sometimes it's changed is where people forget about the main thing, is the main thing. You know, they forget about some of the peripheral stuff, like players, whether they're, you know, getting more requests for interviews or sponsorships, or whatever the reason they're getting that is because they're playing well in the football field. And when you're looking at developing the game and driving the game, you've got to make sure that you don't forget about the contests in the game, because that's what excites people and that gladiatorial type of approach or thinking that people love, you know, contests, competition, challenge.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love it, mate. I think that's the appeal of rugby, isn't it worldwide? It's the gladiators, it's the ancient Coliseum. Phil, now you firsthand have experience with that, what you just talked about in terms of international teams and having to adjust to the cultures. Now you coached Namibia to two world cups, including their first win against Uruguay in 2019. But what are your learnings from that yourself? First hand learnings around things you might have done well and potentially, any cultural things that you might have missed. And if you could go back, what would you potentially change?
Speaker 2:great questions uh, is, is it? It is. It's definitely about an understanding, creating understanding of what certain things mean, so like, and then the pace of change how you you know how you try and create a pace of change that people I wouldn't say comfortable at but feel challenged at and feel capable of, of delivering it. I remember when we spoke to the nubian boys at one stage about the standards, about the measures of what they needed to reach to be competitive at a world cup. We were never going to beat new zealand, south africa, um um, italy, for example, but we had a chance against the likes of canada or uruguay, as you mentioned, or or teams that were around us. I think we were 19 in the world, or 20 in the world. Teams that were 21, 19, 18. Teams we felt we could have a bit of a crack at, you know. So it's firstly, what does high performance mean to them and what it means to us? It was myself, wayne Proctor, world Rug rugby was supporting namibia. So they were talking about world. Uh, high performances. Oh, coach, we're gonna run hard, we're gonna work hard, we're gonna do this, we're gonna do that. So it's basically all the things we'd like to do when the sun's shining. But when the sun's not shining and they're feeling a bit tired, I'm feeling a bit sorry for themselves. How are they gonna? How are they gonna step up? So the first question we asked was what does high performance mean to you? And then we said look, this is what high performance meant to us.
Speaker 2:So we came up with a bit of a hybrid idea between ourselves and the namibians what high performance meant to Namibia. And then we worked on things within the country. We learned how the importance of family. So we created a house in Namibia we called it which the foundation was discipline, the walls were contribute, attitude and the roof was respect. So we worked around what those four values looked like in terms of behaviour, so that they could do their families proud, so they were representing their families.
Speaker 2:And then we looked at the flag in Namibia and what the different colours on the flag meant. So, for example, the and sun on the flag was sunrise, which meant head up, which meant always positive. Blue on the flag meant blue sky, thinking, innovation, because we were looking at how we could compete with the likes of the All Blacks or South Africa or Italy, for example Africa or Italy, for example. And then the green on the flag was about vegetation, really, and what that meant to the players was unique opportunities, because there's not a lot of the Bibbia's a dry country, ben right, there's not a lot of, there's not a lot of um vegetation there. So we use that as a bit of a unique opportunity for the boys to say look, we have a unique opportunity here, and the red on the flag was all about representing the blood that was spilt on.
Speaker 2:Unique opportunity for the boys to say, look, we have a unique opportunity here, and the red on the flag was all about representing the blood that was spilt on the land for the boys for the country to become independent. And that was all about work ethic. And we used to say to the boys look, when you're feeling tired, we've got to respect your forefathers, because if they hadn't fought so hard, we wouldn't have the opportunity to play for our country in a Rugby World Cup, for example. So it was family and flag and those were the key things that we found really motivated the guys. We used other things like Fast and Furious movies, for example. The boys loved the movies and furious movies, for example. Right, the boys love the movies. So we said, okay, what makes the car go faster, which is a bit like, I think, the british rowing uh team in the in in in the olympics what makes a boat go faster? So we looked at that, you know, ben, and we had a blue line, we had a blue car, everybody was in the blue, you were on task, you were doing your job. Or we had a red car, people were off task, not doing their job, you know.
Speaker 2:So those are the things that we looked at connecting the boys, and then we looked at what were the core skills we needed, what were the conditioning levels we needed, and then we had a period of time, particularly from 2015 to19, where we could develop these, um, these, uh, these skills and this culture. You know, um, yeah, and, and, and. It was the pace then. When we got it wrong, at times we just tried to go too quick and the boys just couldn't cope, so we just. It was the pace of change then, and also the clarity and the understanding of what we needed to do when we needed to do it. So when we didn't do it so well, it was always about the pace and about the clarity of message. When we did do it well, we got the pace right, we got the clarity of message, spot on. But around those cultural pieces that I spoke to you about, all those values built the culture that I spoke to you about.
Speaker 1:It was values that built the culture. Sorry, how do you deal with players at a lower level that just don't know what it takes to get to the next level? How much do you let that input, player input, around that side of things, and how much do you, as the head coach with experience that knows what it takes, say this is what we have to do, I don't care about what you want? Say this is what we have to do, I don't care about you know what you want, this is what's required. When does that tone and sentiment have to come in, or does it have to come in?
Speaker 2:oh, excellent question, massively important. Because you know yourself the more, the more you coach the top players like yourself, for like sam Warburton, for example, when I was at the Blues, I'd never, I'd never tell Sam what to do at the breakdown. I would just try, I would just try and facilitate a session, if you like, where his expertise and his, his rugby IQ, rugby IQ would be able to come to the fore and and you become more of a facilitator. As you know, when you're coaching the top players, it's about creating an environment for them to speak. But you have to have a framework that keeps everybody together, because the top players have so many brilliant ideas. If it goes off, if it goes outside the team framework, it becomes confusing for everyone. So you always have to have a framework, but you limit the amount of input. You give technical input, if you like, talking about technical skills. At the moment you give in that environment. When you've got players who have limited rugby IQ, you've got to put more information and more detail in the framework. But we always discuss that with the players. Look for our moves to work. We've got to be able to catch pass accurately. We've got to be able to manage contact, not create collision so that we can get the ball back and make sure that we can win the ball with four people ball carrier plus two or ball carrier plus three against bigger like the All Blacks, like the South Africans. We don't want to get into a physical contest. So it's getting those type of understandings into the players, so they've always got a part within it, ben.
Speaker 2:So ultimately, with us, we would like to get, we would do a lot of coaching up front in the Monday and the Tuesday where we had this sort of implementation and learning days. Then we'd have implementation and learning under pressure. But then when we got to the Thursday, we'd like the players to take over and they would drive the sessions and they would drive the type of options that we wanted to use in different areas of the field. So they had a big part of it, but it was a longer learning process because they didn't have that rugby IQ from an early age. We were coaching 23-year-olds that maybe had a training age or a rugby IQ age of a 17, 18-year-old back home, you know. So it was. The players are always important. You have to have them on board and there's different ways of building that, as I've just mentioned, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and did you have any misses? Did you have any mistakes going to Namibia? Because it's quite a cultural change, right?
Speaker 2:I'm sure you had a few where you just went gee, I wouldn't do that again, like that. Yeah, I think in the beginning it was assumption, being very respectful always, that's always been being very humble and and not going there and telling people what to do, um, but in the beginning we were very, we were directive, in a respectful way, as I say. We were directive and they were just nodding and going yeah, coach, yes, yes, coach, yes, coach. But then we'd go away. And this is what taught me about you know, the secret to remote management is clarity and simplicity, because we were there for maybe 26 weeks out of maybe sometimes 28, 30 weeks out of 52, 52. So we weren't actually there all of the time, um, and in the beginning we thought, oh, this is going to be great, it's going to be easy, because they were agreeing to everything.
Speaker 2:But when we were leaving then and we were coming back, nothing was getting done. You know, they were waiting on, we wait for the coach to come back and it'll all be fine and we'll carry on. But they were missing maybe a month or two then of development because they weren't able to. They didn't quite understand the layering process of what you need to do. You can't have, you know, a month of activity and then two months of no activity because you don't get anywhere. So it was that real clarity and understanding of that clarity and simplicity approach to remote managing so that they keep layering the work, when we weren't there, you know. So that's what I would have changed really is trying to get to that, that sort of simplicity and clarity, a little bit earlier, you know, um than we do.
Speaker 1:what would you, what would you do differently if you to do it again? Would you put than we do? What would you do differently if you were to do it again? Would you put someone in in that time or would you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'd get those. I'd revisit the questions again a bit more. We'd have a bit more repetition in the questions what the high performance mean. This is what success looks like. This is what the culture is of the country, the DNA.
Speaker 2:I spent maybe a bit more time repeating that and we did actually get a coach in Lynn Jones, who was a guy who played with me, lynn and I. He's a great coach. He coached the Ospreys for a number of years, coached Russia and came to coach in Namibia in the Curry Cup team. We got to the Curry Cup competition because we needed that extra level of competition for the national team players between club level. So it's like now it's club level, European rugby, as you know, heineken Cup, then it's the national rugby. We needed a level of Heineken Cup, if you like. We needed that second level above club rugby, below international rugby. That's where Lin came in and did a brilliant job because he kept those messages and those standards going between international windows. So maybe I'd have done that a little bit before and definitely the repetition of of what high performance looks like, what success looks like, you know, definitely yeah yeah, it's just fascinating, isn't it?
Speaker 1:uh, yeah, they just, some places, just aren't aware of what it looks like, right and that's really as you might be finding with your fourth team players and stuff.
Speaker 2:Now, you know, it's just. I love it. It was. We had so many. You know, those guys are stuck in my heart forever, some of those lads and their families too. You know, I remember we took some parents shopping for food because they didn't. We had some players who needed to put some weight on and their parents didn't understand the value of nutrition, you know, and they might have had three or four siblings and they couldn't afford to buy the type of food that they wanted, you know. So there was those types of experiences as well, which were quite humbling and quite fulfilling as well. When you're helping, you know the family unit as well, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and like particularly in, I'd suggest, a culture that has limited resources. Sometimes it must have been very different from you coming from where you'd come from.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh yeah, prioritization was massively important. You know, they were all mad keen about supplementation, you know, in the beginning and we were going, yeah, we, we get that, but supplementation is expensive, um, you know, and it's got to be water tested and it's, it's got to be, um, it's got to be approved and all that. So we said, look, we're just going to try and work firstly and foremost on healthy eating. So you know, we used to talk about, we used to have eggs for breakfast, yogurts, nuts, bananas, all this basic, basic stuff which is cheaper, you know. So we did a deal with a local fruit market and they gave us a bit of sponsorship.
Speaker 2:But you know, the boys, sometimes we had scrimmaging sessions at five o'clock in the morning because the boys are working at seven or seven 30, but we'd want them to go to work with breakfast you know, a good breakfast in them. It's all basic stuff. They wanted gps. They didn't understand monitoring. They didn't have a clue about monitoring. Gps is expensive, plus, you've got to have somebody who understands the data and how you implement that into a process. So we just give them a pen and paper. And we had RPEs. You know, rate of perceived exertion Was that session, an eight or a six or a nine or a ten, or just to get them to feel and understand.
Speaker 2:You know what monitoring was about. So it was all those things which and we got the GPS, we got the supplementation, but that was two and a half three which we got the GPS, we got the supplementation, but that was two and a half three years down the track, after we'd played, an education of understanding why and then how of the coaching process. You know, ben, the, what is easy, what well, we were monitoring, but they didn't know why or how it would work. So it was education. So that was cool that there's education, so that was cool, that was really cool. Watching that, you know. Watching that players, you know.
Speaker 1:I'd imagine the reward is the huge scale of growth compared to top-tier teams. It must be phenomenally rewarding.
Speaker 2:The rewarding bit for me, right, we spoke to Steve Hansen after he was coaching New Zealand at the time. Rewarding bit for me, right, we spoke to Steve Hansen after was coaching New Zealand. At the time, we were 10-8 down against New Zealand after 38 minutes and the previous week, I think, they played Ireland and Ireland were 28-0 down at that stage and although we went in 17-8 at halftime, we got we got beat well in the second half. But that for me, was one of the it might sound strange to people that was one of the most rewarding coaching experiences. At the time. They were the world champions and we were sort of, you know, within one score of them after 38 minutes. And that was looking at strategy, of contact strategy. We looked at. We looked at keeping the ball for multiple phases because we knew that sometimes they would, new Zealand would overfold in their 22, which would give us a potential opportunity on a reverse play, which we did in 2015, actually, when we scored at in London against them. But look, they're a brilliant team and you haven't got all the tools in the box and you've got to really prioritize and pick out the key ones to use just to be competitive, you know, and that was three years, four years of hard work, that first half and the boys gained so much credibility out of it.
Speaker 2:Then you know, and yeah it was an amazing experience after the game, you know the way the All Blacks treated the boys and Steve said he gave an old school team talk at halftime to the boys A lot of shouting and screaming. But look, I went in the dressing room at halftime. I was overjoyed, but all the boys were on the floor and absolutely, I just just say being in a train smash. They were exhausted but they'd done everything we'd asked them to. I was really proud of them and, as I say, after the game, we lost by 60-odd points but we weren't disgraced because of what we did in the first half and we did try and keep going in the second half. So you know, I think new zealand had to go through a minimum of five phases to score tries, six phases in the second half.
Speaker 1:so we kept going but it just, it was just too good, clearly you know yeah, well, it's good that you didn't do the perceived rate of exertion at halftime, phil, because you would have got tens and tens and tens out of ten. I better go and tell them I'm a ten Now, mate, like I'm now. You've had a huge journey, mate. You've been coaching for a long time, great success, great experience too, for you and your family, going to all sorts of different places.
Speaker 1:But now, mate, you find yourself in at the helm of Director Rugby of World Rugby, which is a fantastic role, but it's a massive role. And, like, I'm really intrigued on that role around the cultural piece, because often, sometimes, there's complaints around the culture that, well, not complaints but grumbles about oh, I can do this with a team, but ultimately those above me can dictate it. You're in that situation where you're at the top of the hill, the top of the tree, so I'm keen to know where's the cultural piece from where you sit as director of Rugby for World Rugby. How do you instill great cultures that flows down not just to a team but to every country that plays rugby on the planet, and what are you trying to achieve when you're doing that?
Speaker 2:That challenged me, that question. But it was a brilliant question because, look, we have the decision-making, if you like. Right, it is the World Rugby Council, which is made up of the World Rugby members membership. You know, that's the real sort of powerhouse of the decision making really, which was led by Bill Beaumont, now led by Brett Robinson, as you know, as chairman and Jonathan Webb as vice chair. And then, you know, we have all our different departments in world rugby. You know competitions and high performance, and the department I sit in is player welfare and rugby services. So, and the big parts of that are the shape of the game, you know the laws and how the game evolves, and also the match officiating. That's a massive part. Those are two big parts of my role. There are other parts with the emerging nations. There are other parts with the research.
Speaker 2:We do a phenomenal amount of research, but the key thing for me in my role is a big team effort, as I've just explained, a massive team effort and everyone globally is involved in that, as I've said. But what I've tended to do in my role, ben, is I think every culture, like in Oceania, you've got a different challenges to grow the game in Asia, in Africa, in Europe, they're all different challenges. So for me, what I like to do is call it the three C's. I call it's about communicating, connecting and collaborating. You know, if you don't communicate you can't connect, and if you don't connect you can't collaborate. So for me, those are the three things I've tried to do in my role and working with all the people I've just mentioned and the teams within world rugby and internally and externally, and looking at what drives people.
Speaker 2:The rugby DNA of the countries are all different. You know, in South Africa, you know they love them all and they love the scrum. In England, they, you know they love the mall and they love the scrum. In England, they love the mall, they love the scrum. And France are very similar, but you know, and you're going to get a real physical contest when those countries play the game and when you're going to see New Zealand versus Japan or New Zealand in Australia, you're going to get a real athletic contest because the game is moving. You know there's a lot more in Australia. You've got rugby league, you've got AFL. You know you've got other different sports you're competing with.
Speaker 2:So my point is you have to understand the rugby DNA of the country and respect how people are trying to grow the game and the different challenges they have to grow the game, you know, and you have to understand those cultures and those challenges when you're trying to make change. So it's trying to get maybe I always say, an 80-20 approach where you try and connect 80% globally if it's possible from the way the game is played, but then you have a 20% nuance that they need. They've got different challenges to grow the game in New Zealand, australia, than they have in France and England, for example, or South Africa. So it's really respecting and understanding global cultures, you know. And then the values of the game I think are always important, you know.
Speaker 1:Do they change Phil? Do they change country to country the values, or are they pretty? Much the same.
Speaker 2:I think the values are pretty much the same, but I think sometimes the way those values are sort of looked at in behaviour are the same. You know there might be different cultural things, like in Fiji, you know, and in Africa, for example. Africa, you know, fire is one of the symbols of Africa and people sit around a fire, they share stories, they'll share food, blah, blah, blah. You know, in in Wales, for example, you'll go to the pub or you go to the rugby club, you'll have a few beers and share stories. In Fiji, you know, you'll sit around them in Fiji and share stories and drink a bit of kava.
Speaker 2:So it's, it's so a lot of those things you know of a similar in a way that that, that team ethic and and and that feeling of belonging and sense of belonging, I think, at everywhere. It's just how you know different parts of the world, sort of, you know they have different ways of developing those, those, uh, those, those cultures. You know, ben, if I make, if I make sense, and you know, I think everybody there is a great integrity in rugby. I think there's a passion, I think there's a discipline, you know there's a respect between players and referees, for example, that I think globally is. Is, you know, there's a respect between players and referees, for example? That I think globally is different than any other sport, you know?
Speaker 2:I'd agree with that for sure yeah, and I think the discipline is. You know there's a lot of countries, particularly the top level countries, that discipline is number one in their selection, for example. You know, I know you can look at discipline can be in different guises, clearly, but I think there's a lot of familiarity that I see around the world. But you know, passion and respect are maybe two of the biggest ones that you see. You know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, what are some of the values like? Things like discipline, like respect and sportsmanship are big ones. What do some countries get wrong culturally? Because you obviously see the goods, the country's doing it well. What are some of the common things that countries that perhaps rugby isn't growing or the game's not evolving? Is there anything that stands out that they're getting wrong as a bigger?
Speaker 2:country. I think it's the integrity, the discipline and peace. I think sometimes Ben countries can maybe push those too far sometimes in terms of winning, I mean at the very top level. I don't think anybody you know tries to break any of the values of the game. I think all the laws, I think they always. You know what coaches are like, matt, you and I have been coaches, we are coaches. You always try and look at the law book. I think, right, okay, how can we put that as far as possible to score a try, or to get an advantage or a clean out, or to get the opposition on the floor so you've got an extra number on their feet to play and attack or defend? I don't think you know, I just think there's a genuine, you know that's the competitive nature. I think of rugby. I don't think you know, I just think there's a genuine, you know that's the competitive nature, I think, of rugby. I don't think anybody you know deliberately tries to break anything. I think they just try and push things and that's the beauty of it. I think that's the beauty of coaching, you know, is thinking Like I was on a call with John Mitchell this morning.
Speaker 2:You know one of the most cerebral coaches I've ever met. You know he's an outstanding coach who looks, you know, who's learned a lot about culture over his time but uses data you know, forensically to try to improve performance. You know, and try and tweak different techniques tackle technique. If he's got I don't know 80% completion, can he get 85 by carrying people to keep their feet moving a bit longer before they make the contact Things. You know all this better anyway, and a lot of your coaches on the call will, who listen to your podcast will.
Speaker 2:I just think it's trying to find that edge and sometimes people do push it. You know, I don't. Yeah, I don't think anybody deliberately tries to do anything wrong. I think it's. It's how they push, push that. And in some other cases it's education about people who are growing. You know, in europe, for example, you've got a lot of countries like the netherlands, like poland, like germany. Um were really developing and they're learning about the game and about you know, holland, for example. Now you know rugby is in their country's high performance programme for the first time. The last few years that's been put in to their high performance programme, which has got soccer in it. It's got Olympic sports in it. So you know, know, rugby is being recognized, you know, more and more, in some of these other countries and it's about them learning and developing what that looks like on the international stage, where maybe previously they've been very much, um, you know, cocooned within their own country and they will play international matches but they've not really got a strong international program of preparation development.
Speaker 1:So you know, I think they're learning for education and you know, yeah, and what do you think about, phil around like in your role? The balance between trying to keep the freshen up the game, to keep modernizing, versus keeping the strong traditions which have made rugby what it is? What's the balance between that, you know, changing with the times versus staying true to the roots and the culture which rugby is so strong? And what's? How do you?
Speaker 2:take that? That's a brilliant question, again, I told you, right, I feel what's really stretched me. And look, we're always looking safety spectacle, right, we're always looking about balancing that. And look, there is an element of risk in rugby right, it is. It is a contact sport. It is, as I said earlier is more, um, it is more contests than any other contact sport on the planet. So that is a really good question.
Speaker 2:And, to be fair, when Bill Bowman was chairman, he was really brilliant at that we talked about the shape of the game. Then as a conference, where all the nations, the top nations, come together and look at what is the shape of our game. And now, with Brett Robinson, who's a brilliant guy, you know, he's had a huge experience in rugby Brett, ceo of a you know billion dollar company, he is he's got a fresh pair of eyes on this and they look at we're constantly looking at how we can retain the traditions of the game. Ie, we've got to keep looking at the contests, ben, the mall, the scrum. It's not about depowering anything there, because the mall and the scrum, as we know, is a great place to create space. For example, you know, you've got 16 guys in one small area, and so it's important to remember the importance of those two areas.
Speaker 2:You know the contests at the breakdown. How can we make the breakdown safe, at the same time accepting there is risk but at the same time trying to speed the ball up? You know, in the Six Nations, you know, this year the ruck speed throughout the pitch was under three seconds. Now, in my day, if it was as quick as that, I'd be getting taxis to the rucks.
Speaker 1:Well, in your days, you were having jerseys which soaked up the water too right, Exactly which is why it slowed you down.
Speaker 2:Exactly, they were rucking in our days as well, so you weren't hanging about on that floor too often and I've talked to a lot of people about, you know, rucking. Do you bring rucking back into the game because it cleans up the runway. It cleans the ruck and run. You know the super rugby back when christian cullen and all those guys were playing the ruck and run, otago rugby used to play us to talk to steve bashop who coached me at leeds about ruck and run and and the ball was quick. People would, you know, be out of the way quickly. Tackle technique maybe wasn't as great then as it is now or as effective then as now, but you know tacklers were out of there quickly and and it was all about, you know, rucking and running.
Speaker 2:It's a little bit different now, since the jackals come in. So it's all about when do you reward the jackal. You know if the jackal is there quickly, you reward him. Do you reward him immediately or do you let the contest ensue? And and the cleaners are coming a little bit later, which gets that connection and that collision around the shoulder and the neck area. So it's really interesting and the balance is not easy, but the conversations with the top coaches are brilliant. You know they. They are the guys who are the biggest influence of change and and or coaching, shall we say is so, so important. That's why we have to engage so many stakeholders, but particularly the players, the coaches and the referees. So you're making change on objective data and expert opinion, as well as a little bit of perception. You're in there, ben, you know I love it.
Speaker 1:But you've also been around the world. You catch up with a lot of people, you got a lot of influence. You you talk to the very best coaches in the world. If you had to pick one thing, culturally, from a global perspective, you'd love to just say this is what I want to grow the game in. What area, culturally, do you think would be your area of choice? Where you go? This is an area where I'd love just to hang my hat on a little bit culturally wise.
Speaker 2:I think I talked to Richie Gray about this. Richie's one of the best breakdown coaches in the world. He's coached South Africa. He's currently coaching Toulon in the top 14 around the breakdown and he always talks about a tackle culture. He's not sure that we have a tackle culture. Of course we have brilliant defence coaches and technical coaches, but can we look a bit more forensically at this area of the game and create that tackle culture globally? You know so the kids get taught. You know from an early age, part of their development or when they get to a certain age, that they, they start, you know, being taught how to tackle, really collect correctly in terms of their feet, placement, their. You know their, their, their, their level or their height, change their. You know, keeping, as, as one of the rugby league coaches used to tell me, boxers hands, boxers, feet, keep everything moving until you, until you get into that tackle zone, if you like, or, or the, or the contact zone to make the tackle. So I think that would be one. There would be a tackle culture. Have we got that asked? Really ask that question and dive into that area.
Speaker 2:And and also coaching. You know, getting people to really appreciate the, the level of technical coaching that goes on, particularly at the top level, but to to disseminate that down throughout the levels, um of elite, from elite rugby down through the pyramid, because everybody wants, as you know, everybody wants the killer move. You know, they all want the killer move. I remember going to watch one coaching session and this coach had the players in a room watching super rugby for about 40 minutes, maybe an hour, watching moves, line-out moves, scrum moves and then the preceding hour after that he shouted at the players for an hour because they couldn't do the moves. So I said to them have you ever thought you haven't got Ben Herring, or you haven't got Johnny Wilkinson, or you haven't got Dan Carter, or you haven't got Lee Halfpenny, for example? Have you realised maybe you haven't got Lee Halfpenny, for example? Have you realised maybe you haven't got the quality of players to do those moves? And he looked at me as if and he went.
Speaker 2:That's a great point, because it's not organisational coaching, it's easy to do. It's that technical skills coaching and how you build a rugby curriculum, and I'm sure it's there in lots of places. But is it there, you know, and is it as an in-depth curriculum to help players from an early age become really technically competent. Some may go to elite level and they'll get more obviously, but some might not, ben, you know. And is coaching, technical coaching, not tactical as such, not team organisation? But I'd love to ask that question, maybe within the elite game but more importantly in the community game and in the game down the pyramids, so we develop a safer game, you know, and we develop a better spectacle at all levels, you know, through that coaching. And I just think sometimes technical coaching at certain levels is underused, you know.
Speaker 1:Do you refer to technical coaching as technical, like what it takes to be get your message across, some of those softer skills, or are you talking about all, about the drills and skills?
Speaker 2:I think, firstly the softer skills. For sure of the importance of them, because if you look at a line-out move, for example, it's brilliant when they're at the top of the jump, they've got maximum elevation. The ball is put down to the nine in front of the nine. All this stuff, the nine's handles it up the ball. The hand speeds from the nine to the ten. You know the pass is accurate and ten's getting out in sight in front of him. Those are all those small basic skills, the technical skills. You know throw, the timing of the lift, jump, throw, for example, the, the, the timing and and the accuracy of the delivery from the line out to the nine. All those things you know.
Speaker 2:Ball placement you know abc my old coach used to say agility before contact. You know managing um, the contact, not creating the collision, so that you're using footwork, you're getting to a shoulder shoulder space. You know you're looking at spaces, not faces. All those little coaching sayings that you come up with so that people find it a little bit easier to present the ball. It's always easier to present the ball when you're trying to go through space than when you're hitting a face, because you get you face, because you get, you know you get wrapped up. It's more difficult to place accurately all those technical skills, but the message is firstly, soft skills, why they're so important, and then the repetition of those skills month after month or year after year. Uh, that I I think are very important, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah, I agree with you, phil. Just in my experience, I know some great technical coaches who don't necessarily get them across as well as they could, because their delivery and their tone and their motivational, inspirational-type skills are not quite as good as their technical skills as well, so they don't maximize bang for their buck in terms of, say, at once, do it outstanding. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:And now, and that is that repetition is, is key when you know, if you, if you tell, you know, I coached you one coach once, we, we always used to have a defense block, um, through the month of august, for example, right, which meant our defense was brilliant and our attack was hopeless. So so then we go, whoa, whoa, we're gonna have an attack block for september and then our, our, our, no defense type of thing, you know. So, yeah, when you tell people once, it doesn't make a difference. That's why you know, multi, multi, uh, multi-dimensional coaching for me, holistic coaching, sorry, is important. You know that you have to have the physical, the medical, the technical, the tactical, the physical all has to marry in one. As you know, it's it's the modern day of coaching. But, uh, sometimes you do hear, you know, when people forget that you know you can't have silo coaching, it's got to be holistic coaching, you know.
Speaker 1:Love it. Well, phil, hey, mate, then. The time has gone, just flown by, so we've got time for one more question, and it's the question I love to finish on, and particularly coming from you. I'm interested in this one because the question is what's one belief you hold about rugby, whether that's leadership, culture or development, that you think many of your peers or counterparts would disagree with?
Speaker 2:That's a brilliant question. I still think coaching is one Medical science. All of that is key, key. It's very, very important, but I still think it comes down to the coaching of a team, of the players and the culture, you know, of understanding hard work, time, how long it takes to change behavior, I think are really, really important.
Speaker 2:I think sometimes people think that you can say, right, we're going to change this law today and it's going to be implemented very well tomorrow, and sometimes we don't. You know, you've got to look at the unintended consequences of certain changes and how long it takes for those behaviours to embed, for the necessary changes to make you know. So I think it's, I think it's, it's definitely coaching, without a shadow of a doubt. But then it's the culture of the environment, of understanding simplicity, repetition, if you like, ben, that you need to keep evolving, and the time that takes to get the change that you want. Sometimes it'll take people think it takes two weeks, three weeks, but sometimes it'll take three months, three years for change. And I think it's understanding that how long coaching takes and the simplicity and clarity of the messages that you're writing. So it's how we can effectively take theory into practice as effectively and as quickly as possible to change the game in the right way, you know.
Speaker 1:Love it, mate, love it. I'm sure a lot of people would actually agree with that, phil, that good things take time. But it's lovely, mate. I really appreciate your time here today. It's not often you get to sit down with the big cheese mate and chat about culture from the top down, so always love catching up. Look forward to catching up in person when that happens next. Surely, on your world travels, we'll be seeing each other sometime soon.
Speaker 2:I will buy you a beer in Sydney, hopefully the week before the Lions' third test. I'll be there, so we'll have a beer.
Speaker 1:Here are my three final takeaways from a conversation with Phil. Number one train hard, fight easy. This is a great mantra to remember at all organisations, not just rugby. When you train hard, it makes the performance easier. The more disciplined, focused and tenured you are at training, the easier the game's gonna be. Train hard, fight easy Lovely little mantra. Number two the main thing is the main thing. I love this reinforcement of just such a simple concept. Keep the main thing the main thing. I love this reinforcement of just such a simple concept. Keep the main thing the main thing. Phil talked about sticking together, having spirit and working hard for each other. These are fantastic values and build great cultures, and sometimes it's lovely just to reflect on something so simple can have so much power. Number three build a team that the local people see themselves in. I love this because he was talking about Namibia, but it could be for any environment your local amateur club, your local glass roots club Make the people that are nearest proudest. Until next time, go well.