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Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Aaron Smith: Great coaches admit mistakes and know when to stop coaching
What separates championship team cultures from the rest? For legendary All Blacks halfback Aaron Smith, it comes down to something invisible yet incredibly powerful: "that feeling that binds you all together."
Drawing from his extraordinary career spanning 185 games for the Highlanders and 124 tests for the All Blacks, Smith reveals the stark contrasts between navigating life as both an underdog and a world-beater simultaneously. The Highlanders' 2015 championship season emerged from what Smith calls "pain" - struggling teams that transformed adversity into brotherhood through their "1-39" philosophy where every squad member had equal voice and value.
Smith's most pointed insights target coaching authenticity. "I like when coaches admit they make mistakes," he reflects, explaining how this human quality builds trust that mechanical perfection never can. The greatest coaches, according to Smith, understand timing - knowing when preparation ends and player ownership begins: "Past Thursday night, coaches need to just wait till the game." His candid frustration with coaches who pull out laptops in hotel lobbies draws laughter but carries profound truth about respecting boundaries.
The balance between fun and intensity emerges as a recurring theme. "I always found it helped us switch on more, knowing during the week we'd filled up our fun meter," Smith explains. This counterintuitive approach - that focused enjoyment actually enhances performance when it matters most - challenges conventional thinking about high-performance environments.
Through stories of championship seasons and relationships with coaches like Steve Hansen and Tony Brown, Smith constructs a blueprint for cultural excellence that extends far beyond rugby. Whether you're coaching, leading, or building any team, these lessons in psychological safety, authentic leadership, and the delicate balance between joy and intensity will transform how you think about cultivating championship cultures.
What's your team's invisible thread? How do you fill your fun meter while maintaining intensity when it matters most? Join the conversation beneath this episode – we'd love to hear how these principles translate to your world.
high pressure moments in that you need to have a laugh or be able to relax. I always found it helped us switch on more, knowing during the week we'd filled up our fun meter. You know we'd filled up our cups, that, okay, we've had our last, now let's, let's go. I like when coaches admit they make mistakes, they got that wrong, and not like a big it doesn't have to be a big thing they just say, hey, my planning for that didn't work In the hotel lobby or at dinner and that it's not time to talk. Right, be human and just be yourself. Past Thursday night. You're coaches. You need to just wait till the game and you can help us in the game. When we won, he was probably more harder not harder and grumpier, but a little bit harder on us in the review.
Speaker 1:Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Aaron Smith, one of the best halfbacks the world's ever seen. He's played 185 games for the Highlanders in Super Rugby and 124 test matches for the All Blacks. That's over a decade in the All Blacks. I am privileged to have coached Aaron, and he is, I can testify, one of those players coaches love to coach. His passion, his commitment to the game and his performance in the game is second to none. On top of that, he is always the culture guy in every team he is in. He is the perfect man to talk to about what great coaches do right and what not so great coaches get wrong. When it comes to creating cultures that are hissing and alive here he is, nagi great to have you here, mate.
Speaker 1:The first question I love to ask is how do you define culture? It's always a tough one to kind of explain, but as a player, I think it's that feeling you have when you're in a team, that kind of your common thread that binds you all together, whether that's playing at club level, franchise level or deeper playing for your country. And then it's that feeling of you know what are you all driving head towards, I feel like, and whether it's winning, winning trophies, tournaments or trying to earn respect, deep motivators for me around culture are that. And then I think, when I think of culture, I think of powering up the cultures that are within your team, whether you're in a different country or you know the Pacific Island players, players that would come over to New Zealand and play and trying to embrace, but more the culture. Is that feeling for me. It's that feeling you have as a team of what we all want to stand for and how we want to work for each other and what connects us. I'm intrigued, mate, when you said for you, just a deep motivator for you is potentially that earning respect. Is that that something which has, like chipped away at you? And when you hear that in the culture that we're out here to earn respect, does that fire you up? Yeah, I think.
Speaker 1:Well, a few teams I've been a part of have obviously been kind of underdog or, you know, not respected or well sought after or looked at. You know so. Manawatu was always. You know, the little brothers to Wellington and maybe even Hawke's Bay, and then when I went down to the Highlanders, we were kind of the team where you'd go to have an opportunity or you were an outcast or a misfit from other unions, you know so that's. You know so it was always and I actually enjoyed that kind of tag.
Speaker 1:So when I made the All Blacks, it was a totally different spectrum for me. It was, you know, you're in the best team, so it was good to have both, though I found from my career of the balance. So when I was at the Highlanders, there's different motivators around using that underdog or earning respect tag to drive energy and intent and you know, focus. And then for the All Blacks it was we need to, you know, deliver what we say we're going to do and what people expect, you know. So, totally different. But I think, yeah for me, and I think people can connect with that, or that feeling of not being respected or you're not good enough on that, it's a big motivator and as a player, it was a huge motivator for me. And my big one is obviously I was a smaller, undersized player so I was kind of always battling for every bit of respect I could get growing up and playing in my career.
Speaker 1:You know, mate, and just when you say that it's a really fascinating dynamic that you're in one team which is the underdog and then you're with another team at the same time which is the top dog, it's kind of a. It's quite an unusual thing. And they really were like the highlanders were the bottom of the comp and all blacks were the top of the comp, and how did? How did the coaches in those different environments play on that. Those two things like if the highlanders play on that underdog and what do they do in the all blacks to play on the top dog and get the best out of you and motivate you and drive that culture in the teams Obviously it's one of them is a very like the All Blacks is a very high, high performance environment.
Speaker 1:Executing under pressure is a big thing in that environment and creating methods of working on that. So dealing with and in the end, when you're in a really good team, like when you're in the All Blacks or a high-performing team, it is actually just down to individuals executing their role, just your role, really well, and anything on top of that is a bonus, you know. So if you I don't know't know for a nine, if you get a second touch and um can make some cover tackles, but my main role is to clear the ball, communicate on d to my forwards, fill in gaps where they aren't, um and you know, speed the game and read the game and listen to my drivers. So who who wants the ball, give me comms. So in that team, but then again you flip it and the Highlanders we have a whole lot more influence as a player and the culture is to.
Speaker 1:You can have a culture around the mindset for the week. How do we create energy, how do we create belief in what we're trying to achieve that week? You know, and you know when you outmatch, sometimes with you know, canes, blues chiefs had seven plus all blacks each and the crusaders might have 12. So highlanders we had three or four on average, maybe two sometimes as well. But as a team we knew, as the Highlanders was, that if we were committed as one unit and one person got the glory moment, it was fine. But we were happy with that. We were all about doing it all together to create opportunities for someone else. You know, and we had some amazing players, no doubt, but when you're playing really a whole group of very good players, um, you need to really dive into what you stand for, how you're going to do it and make sure that you um believe in the plan and there can't be any anyone not believe in what you're trying to do that week, how you're trying to pressure them, how we're going to stay in the fight, and we always use it sort of in the Highlanders was the feeling of when we saw them do this or start, you know, talking at each other or talking to the ref more, or we knew we started rattling them.
Speaker 1:You know, and that's when the game's really on and that's where it's different. You know, all blacks would be just next job, what's our next process? Go execute. And the highlanders was like we smell blood, let's keep going. You know, like now we speed it up more, or we, and we'd always had. You know, that was the beautiful balance I liked from both and it was enjoyable as a player, and the highlanders I could have heavy influence of and we'd always have. You know, that was the beautiful balance I liked from both and it was enjoyable as a player and the Highlanders, I could have heavy influence of how we were going to be, how we were going to play and to be in the middle of all of it as a nine is handy and then just trying to yeah, you just use that. But that's how the difference was. You know, the Highlanders, we'd always be underdogs to a sense, and we would create a game plan that suited our style of players we had at the time, whatever year it was, and really go all in on it. Yeah, I love it, mate. Mate, I think it's a really cool thing.
Speaker 1:You said around the triggers that you're looking for particularly an underdog team where you might not be getting the points on the board that are showing you that you're doing well. But you've found other ways, like backchat. When the opposition starts backchatting to referees, that's your cue. That what reinforcement. And it's a lovely one to hear about underdog teams because, like, the scoreboards are almost irrelevant at a point right. But one one question I had for. You said um is important to know what you stood for in that highlanders team and that's kind of like that cultural piece, isn't it around? It's bigger than just you know points on a board. It's who we are as a team, what, what our identity is and what we stand for. And I imagine that has to be really strong.
Speaker 1:Seeing roster-wise weakest on the New Zealand conference, who drove, what you stood for and how did you like? Was that the coach's job? Did the coach instigate it? What were good examples of the coach doing that or the coach passing it on to players? Well, I think the one beautiful environment I was a part of was that sort of build up to 2015 and even 2016-17, where it was our golden run at the Highlanders and what created our culture in 2014 and 15 was pain.
Speaker 1:So we started with a hiss and a roar 2011 and 12 and then blew out for injuries and depth of our squad and 2014,. We had a total clear out of Exor Blacks and stuff that came and we created an environment of hard work and stuff that came and we created an environment of hard work. Tony Brown joined with Jamie and they both came up with, you know, a new way of playing and a new mindset around how we were going to be as men. You know we were going to be Highlander men is what we kind of called it at the time and we're going to get out in the community more. We're going to go to Queenstown and Alexandra and get out there and really meet the people, because 80% of our squad are from the North Island or out of the region.
Speaker 1:I wasn't from Dunedin or Southland and our fans and our players, but our fans and people are great people. But Jamie and Brownie wanted us to see what type of people we represented. We went out to farms, we got amongst the community, we went down to Southland. So all those things are seen. These are our fans of hardworking, honest, straight people that all they want to see you do on a Friday and Saturday night is absolutely give it your all and neither give up. And you know every team would say that and that, but the Wellingtons and the Aucklands I've got you know city fans. You know they're different, but we've got real people. We've got farmers that are working at 5am to 5pm. We've got you know all types of people that live in the central and southland and Dunedin and even up in Ngāi o Maru. That's what we created and I remember in 2014, it being a big moment of just like these are who the people we're representing.
Speaker 1:And then the gold of when Brownie came in was kind of adding we had a very, not relaxed group, but a very. They loved to have fun, have a laugh. We had a good culture off the field and that wasn't made, it was just, it was there. And at that time we were all all us sort of leaders and our top line players were all about 24 to 28 to 29. So we were all at kind of the same age. We were all you know I think Bender might have just had Annabelle Like there was only a couple of fathers in our group. We were all either had girlfriends, and all our girlfriends and partners were friends. So we had a tight group on and off the field and then also on the field we had the balance of Jamie being very stern, direct and bringing the edge, but then Brownie's fun, enjoyment, but high skill and innovation. So we had a really good balance and we had players that could execute what we were trying to do, which was what Brownie wanted us to do.
Speaker 1:And that one thing I always remember is for the three or four years where Brownie was with the Highlanders, and that is it would look a bit different each year, but he would also always put players good players to do things they were good at. So he wouldn't make a move up because he saw another team do it we're doing this move. He'd be like, okay, we can do the move like this because this player's really good at running the outline or a short ball, or he's good in the air or whatever it was. I had two or three moves a week where my pass was the key point of the move, like me cutting out certain people or throwing it behind the ball to a wide field, like there'd be one or two moves. That was definitely like no, this is you need to nail this pass and we'll be able to.
Speaker 1:You know so, as a player, you'd look through the plan and you'd see, you know 80% of you would have like a key part in a simple strike. I need to do this. I need a simple strike. I need to do this. I need to square up pass. I need to. And as a player, you know you only need one or two things to feel like, oh yeah, I'm special when I hear that move, I'm doing it Like here's my move. You know I'm lucky. I might have had three or four things, but you know I mean all our little specials and that like you only need to be. If you fix him, he'll score. You feel like you're a part of something special.
Speaker 1:But also, like I said, we had a smaller pack, so we created a ruck and run trap and go speed game plan and we had some amazing backs at the time that were just pretty sharp. And then you had Bender. But I think the thing that got me with the culture was Jamie, naimi, nasi and Bender. So it was pretty much yin and yang of as a person and player. So Nasi's like the heart and soul of the team of love and care. And Bender was a high-performing athlete and the follow-me guy and a man of action, so didn't say many words, but he held so much mana in our team that you know, and when you watch him play, he's jumping for high balls, chasing people down, breaking the line, you know, and both him and Nassi.
Speaker 1:So our leadership group was very strong, but those two or three years where we won a lot of games and we won a title as well and made a semi and a quarter, um was around. You know alignment of players, the leaders and coaches. So we left the room every monday morning aligned on what the week's going to look like and I think the common thread everyone will say from 2014-15 was we still. We had a good balance. We had a lot of fun and not just everyone thinks the bears and that. No, we were like pre-training.
Speaker 1:There were laughs. We'd always have little things the night before and it wasn't serious, it was actually having a laugh about something or someone. Yeah, fun and games and you know you need those things in culture, right? High pressure moments in that you need to have a laugh or be able to relax, because that was the thing is once we got on the field. Jamie wasn't leading any of that. There was no laughing. But you know, in the meetings and that we could have a laugh, but yeah, once you put your mouth guard in it's go time. And we knew that and I think I always found it helped us switch on more, knowing during the week we'd filled up our fun meter. You know, we'd filled up our cups. Okay, we've had our laughs, now let's go hook and blows, love it.
Speaker 1:Well, there was an interesting thing. I was chatting to wayne smith and he said there's actually a bit of science around uh, dropping your cortisol levels earlier in the week to uh help recovery and things like that, and laughter and fun was actually a big part of that in terms of dropping that and testosterone can be built up later in the week. And he, I thought that was really fascinating uh bit of science which only probably wayne smith will dive into around that sort of things. But one thing I thought was really interesting is you talked about the balance there, brother, where, like it seems like there was a big balance between fun and hard work. There was a contrasting balance between, like nasi, manu and ben smith, and the personalities, and a massive difference in personalities between jamie joseph and tony brown and it seemed like in personalities between Jamie Joseph and Tony Brown. And it seemed like in that period it was the golden period of just getting that combination right between maybe before Brownie you just had the hard influence of Jamie and then you brought and as I understand it, nassim Manu actually went to him at the end of that season saying things have got to change a wee bit, and then fair play to Jamie went back and got Brownie to add that different perspective.
Speaker 1:And what do you think about Brownie as a coach? Where does he nail it in terms of getting both the on-field stuff and the off-field stuff? What's his skill set? If you're talking to coaches here, what does he do? I know he's such a hard man to mimic because he's such a talented rugby IQ, but he definitely gets a balance right in terms of the cultural piece too right. How did he do it? What's your thoughts?
Speaker 1:I think Brownie's brilliant at making something that's quite complex seem simple. I've thought about it sometimes and I don't know how he does it. And that's the thing is he is able to explain something that's quite complex and difficult but sell it that it's easy. And this is how we're going to do it, and something about the way he delivers it too is like total belief and gives you total confidence that if I do this right the way he wants, and this is how we're trying to do it as a team, it'll work. And yeah, and then, obviously, when you review training or the games, it's like that's not what we trained and that's why that didn't happen and like, okay, cool.
Speaker 1:So his ability to be able to, you know, but, as I sort of said before, the ability to give great players opportunities to be good, you know, and his biggest strength probably was his communication to you as a player. He'd always say good players want the ball, so want the ball and do something with it. And if you can't do something with it, give it to someone else. And but that's the thing he gave you the confidence to go. And he'd always say I'd rather you make a mistake than not do anything. And you know, as a you know at the time, me, lima and Benda and Waisaki and Malakai, good backs. But he didn't care. He's like I don't mind if you, I'd rather you die trying than not try something.
Speaker 1:You know we'd do a lot of conditioning games and skill blocks and you know goal line touch and that, and we're allowed to express ourselves and you know some tries we'd get were just pure, that's just conditioning games and and and goal line touch and just playing, what you see and um, but his simple theories and they always sound as simple as you know move the ball, attack space, you know back yourself and it was like, okay, cool. So, as a player, if you're going out there without too much clutter, your natural instincts just take over and you just jam and you play, and that was the beauty of it. You never felt like some coaches. You go in the back of your head, you go if I do that, I'm going to get in the review and he's going to go. What'd you do that for?
Speaker 1:Or you know, yeah, where Browning was like oh, that was dumb, or like you know, next time, like you know, go around the back or like, but he would create moves that you would do like it wasn't. He didn't care how you got, did the pass. He's like you can flick it, like that, you can go here, you can throw around, I don't care, but that's the whole. So you come up with what you want to do. You kick it. I want you to kick it there. I think you can do it backwards or whatever. He would give you that and then win the other stuff. But I found that he gave you confidence and he also just gave you the belief to try. Do something. Don't be scared to not try, mate, he's very good like that. Try. You know, mate, he's very good like that and he only talks to you in a way which motivates, as he's telling you right, he's an incredible coach.
Speaker 1:Now, mate, on that same year that you won at the 2015 season, there was a memorable story for those that don't know it about this kind of 1-39 sort of the chat about the full squad, and I always I was privileged enough to be just sort of floating around the perimeter of that at the time and I just really loved that concept and how it was driven. Can you sort of just like expand on how that culture came about and how it was driven throughout the season? Because it took the media down south. They loved it and they got on it and it seemed like the whole community was in behind this 1 to 39 concept.
Speaker 1:Well, we, just as leaders we sort of talked about, we used to do this thing called down-ups, we called it bread and butter, so it was like 12 rounds and we'd always do it like in pre-season, after training on the last day we'd do 12 rounds. So 120 down ups, 12 sets. It's like you know shit work, it's not, it's not fun, but it's like if we all did it. At the end after it, you know, the train is like training's done, and it was like a little bit of like. This is when you're in the trenches you can all know we've all done this work. You know like we've all done. It doesn't matter if you're the starting, your captain or you're the guy first here. It's that we all do this work and we'd always do it or after a bye week or something like we do 12 rounds or we do our bread and butter. And the concept of that is and then it builds as well.
Speaker 1:To add to that was that we wanted to create an environment that you know one to 39. If you're the 35th person, you could tell nasi hey, what's going on here, why are you doing that? Or um, or the other way we use it is if you didn't know something, you can go ask the top guy or the bottom guy or the middle guy it was. Everyone's voice was clear and you you had. It was a safe space that there was no number one. It was like we're all in this together, we're all part of the 39 and we're all in and we were all in on our values and what we're about, but no one, no one, is bigger than the team, no one was bigger than you know and obviously nasi and benda are the captains. So there is a hierarchy but there is, like it was still inclusive of you can go to them and it was a safe place. They could go to a leader they trusted or not.
Speaker 1:But in that, in that team, in that little patch there, we didn't have any real issues, like not real, real ones. I mean we just had, like, you know, if some, we, if we all did, someone did, saying we'd all get punished for it, so we'd all do that bread and butter, we'd all that was our concept was like if someone does, saying it cost us all, you know so and you can say that you know, know the team, but the 1-39 just like brought it back to like it's us, you know, not the brand, not the Highlanders, it was like our group, our brotherhood, brotherhood, 1-39 was our quote and yeah, so I think you've got something. Yeah, I got it. I was going to say you've got a shadow of it on your arm, mate, that's his brotherhood, right, brotherhood and 1x39. Yeah, that's in itself a pretty good testament to how strong that culture was when you tattooed it on your arm right. Well, we won. So that helps. Did you get it before you won? Nah, I got it after, and I got the baby one. Just needed to check it, eh, just needed to check it, but it meant that. And I got the baby one, so Just needed to check it out, just needed to check it. Yeah, but it meant that group, you know, it's just there's like, yeah, 10 of them guys, 10 or 15 of them, we're all you know. You're lifelong friends. You had, like I said, the group.
Speaker 1:That was through 2013, 2012, 13,. We went through a lot of pain, you of pain. One year we won two games, I think, and absolutely got a hiding, and the other years we were competitive, but not in the playoffs. 2014, we started the brotherhood, the making of it, and then 2015 was special. We weren't awesome at the start, but we. 2015 was special. We weren't like awesome at the start, but we started rolling and believing and then we took our chances. You know, and that's you know, we weren't the best team in the comp that year, but we were the best team on the night and that is something that's always stuck with me around.
Speaker 1:High-performance sport Like you go to tournaments or you get to play off rugby all the last 15 games before. That don't mean anything who's the best team on the night, and that's the beauty of sport. Like man, anything can happen. Well, mate, the rolling into that final series where you ultimately beat the Canes, the momentum that that team had was just you could feel it, couldn't you Like everything about it. There was like that invisible thread you talked about. It was just boys are on cloud nine and you couldn't necessarily put a finger on what it was, but there was just something which was connecting you guys pretty strong, right, I think, to play.
Speaker 1:The Chiefs at the time were. The Canes were very good that year, no doubt, and they were very good in 2016 as well, but the Chiefs for a couple of years, like they won 2012 and 13. They were a very, very good team and very hard to break down and you had to. They had a physicality about them and that was always our thing was Jamie Jo quote of bully the bully, and that was our mindset to play them, and if you didn't match them physically they would beat you and they would run you off the park because they were so good, they had so much expected. So that was the quarterfinal. We'd won enough games to get a home quarter. So for us it was wow, we've got a home quarter in front of our people. Let's not waste this opportunity.
Speaker 1:And then coaching and the mindset and the planning was critical. We had to go at Brodie Otele, we had to go at their forwards, we had to go at their. You know, and these are rugby, when it's at playoff time, like it is little things like that and and we just we had some great plans and um nailed our chances. So but yeah, that's the thing I mean. The semi and the final were just like you said. We beat the chiefs and it was like okay, but we were just like I said.
Speaker 1:For me, the the last month was just like fun. We didn't know if we'd have another Monday, so our mindset was always just like enjoy the day, enjoy the week, let's just enjoy this moment, and then we enjoy tomorrow and then we just give everything at the game. You know, so it was a cool month and that was what we called it the golden month. You know, that's like the brotherhood thing, one to think like everyone has a part and everyone, everyone has special moments around, creating culture and special things for players. And yeah, like I said, the that chiefs game was the biggest game, even like the final was like, okay, we've made it, but you know we didn't get out, we got a home quarter and we lost that. Then no one's talking about anything right now. So that's right now.
Speaker 1:Mate, you mentioned a couple times around like creating a safe space as as uh, you came back to that a few times when you're just talking there, and so that's kind of like that kind of analogy of like psychological safety for people to be able to say what, whatever they need needs to be said. So if you're the junior guy, you can say to the senior you call someone out. But I guess what I want to ask is how does a coach, particularly as the first leader in the team, how does he help create an environment where that safe space or that psychological safety is made or available? Have you seen anything which good coaches you've done or the coaches in that team did to make sure that that was commonplace.
Speaker 1:The thing I respect most about coaches when they do is they admit they don't get up there saying they know everything. They get up there and say I believe this will work. So they're not like uh arrogant to like I know this is going to work. They don't know they have. They're in an estimated, you know calculated guess of footage and what other teams have done and that. And I love when. I actually love when they get up there and they just say I got that wrong, boys, that's on me Like we did that line out more thing, wrong idea, they had a more plan, they stopped us so sorry. Well, you know, they just show that because you know we're trying as well and we make mistakes.
Speaker 1:And I like when coaches admit they make mistakes, they got that wrong, and not like a big it doesn't have to be a big for a row they just say, hey, my planning for that didn't work. What's the connection it brings between a player and a coach when he or she does something wrong? Well, you know, in front of the team when they speak, they speak a lot. That just shows they're real, you know they're trying their best and you know. But also when coaches make a fumble in a review or saying they have a laugh about, you know, like get the wrong name, or you know just little things, like don't either to be able to have a laugh for yourself saying the name wrong, or you know, especially in reviews, and you call someone's name and it's not that guy. But you know just being real and I think the that helps and I think I always think that when you're in those in those spaces of in the hotel lobby or at dinner, and that like it's not time to talk, like be human and just be yourself and I think that's it goes a long way.
Speaker 1:If you're walking around with your laptop and you've still got your training jacket on and hat and you look like you're going to hit them up for a come, look at the laptop, would you Come with me? I've got a couple of clips. Yeah, walk down the way. Man, like you know, wait for after lunch, would you? Like you know, come find me before training. But you know, I just think that the good coaches I've had I'm like have that good off switch, like especially. You know, yeah, and I think one thing I've always liked with a couple of coaches I've had that are good, were around captain's running game day. They were just starting to just build you up, not ask, questioning if you're ready, or they just start going oh, you're looking good, mate, you can, you're going to do well tomorrow and make sure you really bring it. Or just those little comments tagging on everyone. They hear it, the players, and they feel like, yeah, coach is backing me. Is that how you reckon is a good week? Like by the end of the week? It's just all about the mental, just putting someone in a good space. You've done that.
Speaker 1:Past Thursday as a coach, you can't do anything. You can't unless something's happened, like an injury or something, and you need to do something. I think past Thursday night. Your coaches, you need to just wait until the game and you can help us in the game, give us information, help us at halftime, no doubt. But if you haven't cleared something off your chest by thursday training and it's not, you don't feel like it's covered, it's too late, it ain't in there because you've already had monday to. You know, lay the groundwork. Tuesday to train it. Thursday go fast, test it and then fridays clean the car saturday, drive the car so.
Speaker 1:So I always think that If coaches are walking around Friday, it shows that you don't believe in the plan or you're nervous, and I think that's actually worse. Yeah, that's a good point, mate. So if you're walking around carrying the pressure of the game or the moment the players feel it, so just how you carry yourself of the game or the moment the players feel it, you know. So just how you carry yourself, you know captain's run game day is really key. I love that, mate, not coming around, being too relaxed and trying to like have a laugh, but just don't walk around like you're ready to play the game. Are you ready? And I hate that. I hate those coaches. They're like you're not playing the game. Mate, relax, okay, just just trust us to do the job. Love it, mate. Naggy, what?
Speaker 1:What happens when you you talked about if coaches do pull the arrogant card, if they make a mistake and they, they don't own it. They don't. You know you said it's cool when they're human, when they accept they made a mistake, and that's a good thing for rapport and trust. But what happens when the opposite happens, where they don't, where they just stick to their guns that, for whatever reason, don't put their hand up, how does that sink into a change room like what? What does that come across like and how does it ripple down to the team and what are your thoughts when the reverse is done? Well, I think it's.
Speaker 1:You're just obviously creating that doubt of like does he trust me or does he just think he knows everything and you know you just come the next week? You don't want them to kind of doubt what you're saying for a bit. So then they're not committing fully, they're not going hard on it because they're like oh, you know, I don't like this. Or then they just start maybe resenting the guy, and not for long, but it definitely lingers and it depends on what it is, I guess. So if you're getting, say, if you're getting told off for something he told you to do and ripped out in a review, and you're like, well, that's what you told us to do, like what are you on about? But now you're telling me, why'd you do it.
Speaker 1:It's like players go, well, okay, next time I'm not doing what you say, I'm going to do what I think. And then that's when you have four players doing this and two or three not doing the plan and two or three not doing the plan. And you know it doesn't happen often, but it can happen. And communication and being real and authentic is gold. And you know, if you create that environment of, yeah, we're all doing our best and I'm giving my best and coaches do, they do a lot of homework in there but yeah, like I said, they won't make many mistakes and it's just owning some, being able to laugh at yourself and it's okay to be wrong. God, players get it wrong all the time and then life's just like a bunch of you know muck-ups, but you know it's about what you do next and what you learn from it. You know muck ups, but you know it's about what you do next and how you what you learn from it. You know I love them. Yeah, and rugby's always.
Speaker 1:I think the thing is I like is rugby's always the game of second chances? Like there's always a second chance in a game, or there's always next week or next season, like there is a those learnings and and. Mate, when you're talking about compiling learnings, I've got one for you around your leadership stuff, because you've played an absolute truckload of games 185 for the highlanders, 124 for the all blacks. How do so? You're very much a senior player these days, 36 years old. How do how? Have coaches used you well in terms of your skill sets and the culture side of things, and how have they grown you as a leader to be an important part of that senior crew? I think it's morphed over time.
Speaker 1:So obviously when you're a bit younger and that you can be a bit more, you know happy-go-lucky guy and try to be the best player you can be or one of the best players in your team. You know, and as you get older and more not confident in yourself, but trust your own abilities I found out that my best way of leading was through my actions and my dedication to what I do to prepare for a game. And it wasn't telling everyone, it was just showing. Or if they were watching they would see, and if they weren't, they wouldn't see. But I always found great leaders lead in their own way. So you don't. I want to be a leader this year because I've been in the team for four years.
Speaker 1:Leadership chooses you, you don't choose it, and coaches will see qualities in players that shows leadership through actions or communication or that. But all the best leaders I know are action men first, and over time you get better at the talking and what to say and how to say it, and whether you're a captain or a strong leader in the group that's trusted to talk about defence or attack. Yeah, but I think and each picking your leadership group's key is that you need different types. You can't have all the same robots. Your best player that does all the homework, that's telling you, running huddles, make sure you do this and do what I do. That's not leadership. It's pushing them, guiding them towards what we need them to do.
Speaker 1:And, like I said, who's been influential on you from a coaching perspective? Who's been one of the coaches that have sort of got you right, hit you with the right stuff, and how have they done that to bring you out of that transition from your younger, happy-go-lucky self to the senior, respected leader in the team and obviously world-class player as well. Yeah, I think it's. Yeah, as I said, I was always an all right sort of talker, motivator, kind of spiritual leader, kind of guy, passion or you know, intensity and my love and care. It's unrivaled. Your passion is beautiful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and brownie used me a lot for the highlanders around. You know not my hatred for other teams, but my passion and love for the club, for the highlanders, and I'd talk about what it meant to me if we nail this and what they're like if they win. Or you know, would he set you up for that, would he preempt you with stuff to say or say, aaron, no, he'd just go. We'd obviously have our mindset for the week, so I'd always try to line up with that. But you'd always end up a bit off script. You'd get a grunt about something and a bit of laughter or a bit of a look and you're like, okay, they like that, I'm going in there or whatever. But you know he'd give me a bit of a warning, like, oh, you know, we'd have these little quirks for the week and it was like double down on that. And then, yeah, so not all the time, but I'd do it sometimes.
Speaker 1:And then I think when you're a captain, it's around using your lieutenants I always found was the key Using your vice captains, using your key emotional players, calling them out like I need you to front, I need you to put some hits in mate, like we need you now, and you do it in front of people in the huddles and stuff like that. Like you know, pressure Pressure is a beautiful thing if you can use it right. Pressure pressure is a beautiful thing if you, if you can use it right and and I like when um, you know, fozzy was always great for me in the all blacks it's hard because you got a whole lot of leaders. Really, you've got, you know, all the best players from every team in the country and then you've obviously got a leadership group and finding my niche was, you know, he was good for me around, what he wanted me to drive in the backs as the older player and once sort of uh, ma and sunny and stuff left. You know, me and ben were the usually the older players for a long time and then when bender and that left, I was the oldest by a couple of years. So trying to just keep our boys on task. But he would talk to me about it. Like you know, I want to make sure we've got a younger group, we have fun, but we move to drills, let's switch on and let's, you know, let's make sure our skills are high and our focus and our ears are on, like stuff like that, and I would drive that, help, drive that through him as the leader, one of the leaders in the backs, because first fives have got a lot to worry about, so lest they have to worry about dealing with everyone, then I can just sort of go hey, get over here, switch on, listen, let's do this. And now let's get the message from Bodie or Richie about what's next. And you know backs, ben, I know you're a forward, but you know backs. Well, ben, I know you're a forward, but you know Not anymore, mate. Backs coaches, they listen to this. You know you need to. Teams have a lot of pressure and Fozzie would create an environment and as an older halfback, I would just make sure that everything was set, that the team could just point the way.
Speaker 1:And what was your relationship with Fozzie like? Was it like a sort of friendship or like a working arrangement? What was good about it in terms of that? Where's the balance there? When you get to sort of that level of league coaching, what are you after? Friendship, or you're after like a professional relationship? What's the ideal for you as a player? I think the first sort of eight years our friendship was very professional and stuff, and then the last four was like deep love and connection.
Speaker 1:I'd had him for so long. You know, I had him for all my years in the All Blacks. But I think along the way he figured me out pretty quickly what motivates me and his ability to needle me about things passing or what happened there. Or he knew how to push my buttons, you know, he knew me. How do they know that? You know? So he knew, he knew where to go. And then he, he never gave me too much either, you know.
Speaker 1:And and if I was a bit up or down or trying too hard, and he would tell me straight up like, yeah, you didn't train well today, you were trying to, you're trying to worry about everyone else. I just need you to focus on doing your job and I'll be like, oh, that's good. So like a little smack in the face just to hit you, yeah, and then um, yeah, but through that too, you know, um, and he wouldn't, he wouldn't praise you either. He didn't need to, but he kept picking me. So I knew that he had my back and that made me want to play for him. So that relationship but you know, when you play or hang around someone for so long, we have a great relationship and, like with Steve Amfos and Brownies and Jamie, I have a deep rooted connection with all four of them great men in their own separate way.
Speaker 1:But because I've played so long under them, I gave and they knew me. I gave everything to what, whatever we, if I didn't agree with something, I was never scared to go. Oh really, can you kind of sell that to me a bit better, or why you think that or why we do that. And then, if they do, I was not um too dumb to just go. I'd just do it like okay, cool, and I'd go all what we were going to do. But I always made sure I was like I was never scared to sit on my tongue. But then, whatever we came to the decision to do, I would do like okay, cool. But you know, sometimes I'd say an idea and I'd be like, yeah, sweet, I I believe in the l dot and will help lead or, you know, drive that and. But I said ability.
Speaker 1:I think I learned pretty quickly as a player was. You know you don't know everything and trust they actually watch all the footage, all of it. They know more than you. And then obviously I played a lot longer than other players that you know. You've got your own experiences of that type of rush deal or that. But you know, fozzie and Brownie was the same for me.
Speaker 1:It was stuff we could talk about and and hold each other accountable on, but also their ability with, for our connection, to talk to me and other players and what they're going through, and and I would, I would give maybe a bit of insight that they didn't kind of know about other things going on maybe, and I'd kind of be like, hey, just give him a break and maybe just like give him a break in a sense of intensity and just trust him this weekend. Or you know, just I'd give nothing away but as a player and a leader in the group, I can read people, but we know what's going on over there and he just needs to, and taking a jersey away from him right now may not be the best thing. So just let's get him to Saturday and he'll be right. And I think that's when you get a rapport with leaders and a captain or a coach or people where you can have more open conversations. We'd have a lot of conversations about other players and situations Brownie or Fozzie or Steve and as a player you're not going to nothing bad more, just their mindset or where they're at, or he probably needs a bit more of this or less of that, and that's yeah, if you can get with your senior players and it really helps, I think, because the player doesn't even know that it's changed for them or that they'll just sort of get back on the horse and be going good again.
Speaker 1:You know, and especially with long campaigns, or you know times away from home or there's just things pop up you know and they don't know, because they don't know what they don't know. You know, and yeah, that was always sort of something I always found interesting. The tighter I got with my coaches and yeah Well, I think it's the old phrase like you could be the barometer of a team because you know the temperature of what's going on, you know the ins and outs where the coaches don't get that inside scoop on the change room. So for a coach to be well-connected to those barometer guys and you are one of them and it is massively important to actually get that rapport, that trust in those people. So as a coach you can get a little bit of the insight to what's happening in the inner circle, which is hard to get to any other way.
Speaker 1:I think that stuff, ben is critical on the weekly plans as well. So there's a weekly plan and when you sit with your leaders on the Monday and presenting that and talking about it, having checkpoints during the week, like okay, we've got this in here, it might be an extra conditioning block or an extra whatever it is, or there's a promo here Can we change, letting players have input on that. I find that quite annoying when coaches just go we're doing it like this because we have to, or whatever we're like. If the players don't get the input, you won't get the whole buy-in. And I always feel like if the boys know the leader's signed off on something, it just changes the mindset straight away.
Speaker 1:So if there's something we have to do on a day off or a captain's run day, I don't know, but as long as the senior players feel like, okay, we agreed on it, the coaches can go up there and go hey, we've got this thing. We've talked to the leaders, we've shortened it, but we're going to do it and it's our only time, but we have to do it, but it's cool. But you know the old one players are like students If they just get told you've got to do it, it's like they won't want to do it wholeheartedly, you know so like, and there's things that players, like you said, and then I think during the week it's critical to check in with your leaders around do we need to train as long or can cat and drum just be like sneakers on? Can it just be low key? We had a big Thursday. We trained really well, but we probably overcooked it a bit.
Speaker 1:Speed, wise and length, or you know, it's about being adaptable and asking your senior players or leadership group, like, for feedback all the time how did you find tuesday training? Was it too long, too much contact, not enough, and then you can go off your own gut feeling as a coach, but also your players input, you know, because, um, seeing players always think like that, nah, it wasn't long enough, or can we do a bit more d or can we do less on that, like you know, just because the weekly plan worked the week before or last week or the week after that, but sometimes just being open-minded for feedback and just ask um, and then the coach can still make the choice. So we're doing this like I want this always and you know it's like okay, cool, well, you asked. Well, you, you asked if we like it or not. But um, yeah, I think you know. I think that's great and also from a coaching perspective, if you can sell it to just one leader or a couple of leaders, it's better than doing it publicly to the whole, having to do it to sell the whole team, knowing that if you can just sell the one or two or three leaders, then your job pretty much done. Then it's in and it's almost like a union, isn't it that if the union leaders have signed off on it, then we'll do it because we know they've gone in and fought for us and making the right call for us as a group. So it's not like there's this iron-fisted corporate boss that runs a nuclear plant that's making all the workers do stuff. There's actually a really strong union.
Speaker 1:I guess the flip side for coaches, which is interesting, is if they're perceiving shortcuts being taken. That's probably the coach's bit like oh, can we take that out? Do we have to do those 12 rounds of down and ups? That's where the coach has got to be really strong in his opinion around. No, this is why we're doing it and it needs to come in, because there's always going to be an element of that, isn't there. Well, that's it.
Speaker 1:Like I said, around, being strong still is, like you know, players always say let's do less. Yeah, less down and ups, right, okay, we might do less of that, but we're not moving contact, or we're not moving units, or you know, like that's where the input is good, because it's like okay, well, there was a collaboration, you know, and players don't, but it is good. And I think, if you have a good rapport with your players anyway, if they feel anything around training, the boys are like switching off in this because it's just too long, or clarity was hard, because we got a whole lot of players and only 15 are doing it and then we got 20 others laughing and they're not here here. So how do we as a group make it more aligned and everyone's on the same page, and you know so there's always different dynamics, but it's just about being open, creative. You know, weekly plans are what they are, but you got to plan on what's going on in the moment. Have we got a heap injuries? Is the weather bad, whatever? But just being adaptable, I don't know.
Speaker 1:I find that annoying with some coaches when they're just like nah, it's the same, we're doing the same thing. It worked last week. It's like, okay, well, we all got a car wreck in the weekend by giving 80 minutes of hell and we can't walk on Monday and we can't walk on Monday. So can we go into a gymnasium and do our clarity? Because we're just busted Like yeah, but no, yeah but yeah. Then you lose a game and then you know you're in for hell for Monday, tuesday. Well, that's a good question. Actually, when you do lose a game, what do good coaches do? And even like a run of losing games, what's the right way of coaching? What have you enjoyed that coaches have done well on losing streaks and what have you not enjoyed where coaches have gone when it comes to losing?
Speaker 1:I think Steve's a good example Steve Hansen of like when we won, he was probably more harder not harder and grumpier, but a little bit harder on us in the review and a little bit more critical. And if we lost, it would probably be the other way, where it was like showing a lot of positives, that these are the things we need to fix, and his intensity was a bit different. So, depending on you know, we didn't lose too many games, but if we lost one, that was, you know, a really good game, oh yeah. But if we won a game and we, you know, had moments that we were a bit relaxed, or let them back in, or you know he would come down pretty hard and he'd come down hard on leaders and stuff and what he expected. But coach's aura is after a game, a real critical, I think, and Steve's aura after a loss would be a lot more giving and supportive and probably won't even talk about the games. See how you are, and yeah, supportive and probably won't even talk about the games. See how you are um and yeah and um.
Speaker 1:Then you had a jammy joe and if you had a shocker game he'd be waiting by your locker, like what happened? I had him waiting at my locker a few times like, oh, shoot, you know, I walk in the changing room after the game and he's sitting there waiting for me, nasty, to come in number eight. I can just see it. I've got the image, whatever boys and I'm like, oh, you know, shit happened, man, we got bum-rushed. So you know, it's just like yeah, just like, yeah, um.
Speaker 1:But I think I think all coaches understand, as long as they, uh, don't walk around too much like carrying the world on them, like, you know it was my fault or whatever. Just I like the coaches that are strong, um, not too happy, you know, like if you've lost, it's just take it like a man, you know, stand up, be strong and and it just I, I think as a player, it's context. So if you lost a game you shouldn't have lost, you're allowed to get it, you get everything you deserve. Then it's not good enough, you know. And if you lose a game on a heartbreak or a ref call or a kick on the hooter, it's just hey, we get better next week. So it's all. And I think if you win, well, humble them. So, okay, well, we did pretty well tonight, but next week we've got. Yeah, it's just a balancing act. We love it, mate.
Speaker 1:Here are my final three thoughts from a conversation with Aaron. Number one the yin and yang of a team. There's time for fun and there's a time for hard work. And Aaron made the quote I like going into games knowing my fun bucket is full. Now, that's a lovely statement from a senior player to make.
Speaker 1:As a coach, we are the first that need to know what time it is Fun or hard work or somewhere in between. And then, when we know it, we got to go all in on it. Number two own it when it doesn't work. Aaron talked about the respect he had for coaches that owned their mistakes. What owning your mistakes does is it lets the team know you're real just like everybody else. It makes you feel more real and authentic and, as Aaron highlights, that builds respect and rapport from the team to the coach. Number three coaches be human. Pulling out your laptop in a hotel lobby or talking endless strategy at a social occasion is not how most humans interact. There is a time and a place for everything. We, as coaches, need to know these places. Know that and you'll get the best out of your players at the most appropriate times. See you next time.