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Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Kendrick Lynn: Breaking Down Argentina's Rugby DNA
What truly makes a winning team culture? According to Kenny Lynn, Argentina Rugby's attack coach, it's "the environment you create to maximize the potential of the group." Fresh off orchestrating Argentina's historic victory over the British and Irish Lions, Kenny dives deep into the cultural foundations that make winning possible.
Kenny shares a refreshingly authentic approach to high-performance coaching, revealing how Argentina's unique situation—with players scattered across European clubs—becomes their greatest strength. "For these players, this is their chance to be truly Argentinian," he explains, highlighting how national identity fuels performance. Rather than fighting this reality, the coaching staff doubles down on celebrating their DNA and cultural heritage.
Perhaps most striking is Argentina's family-first approach. Unlike environments where family is viewed as a distraction, the Pumas integrate families into team barbecues and prioritize family time for both players and coaches. This commitment extends to honoring the team's connection to amateur rugby, with Kenny cleverly organizing training drills around club rivalries to generate natural competitive energy.
The conversation offers rare insights into cross-cultural coaching, with Kenny drawing from his experiences in France and New Zealand. His "connect before correct" philosophy emphasizes understanding people first, while his principles-based coaching style provides structure without stifling creativity. As he puts it, coaching Argentina is about "simplifying everything to allow them to play free and remove fear."
What emerges is a masterclass in balancing tactical rigor with cultural authenticity. Kenny's approach demonstrates how meeting players where they are—understanding their unique backgrounds, strengths, and motivations—creates an environment where extraordinary performances become possible. For anyone leading teams across cultural boundaries or seeking to maximize collective potential, this conversation offers invaluable wisdom from rugby's highest level.
You've got to understand the business we're in and that we're representing Argentina. A good culture is the environment you create to maximise the potential of the group. For us, we really double down on that, on who we are and what the DNA is and what it means to be playing for the Pumas. Yeah, you first meet teams where they are and players where they are, and then from there you go for it, rather than coming in and thinking, oh, I'm going to do it this way, how you make people feel and how you help people and how you work. I think that's the ultimate thing how you make people feel and how you help people and how you work. And I think that's the ultimate thing. I mean, you want to ride the wave of wherever you are, rather than fighting the tide.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I've been Herring and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Kendrick Lynn, or Kenny as he is known. Kenny has been coaching professionally for over a decade at Lyon in France and has coached every facet of the game. He moved back and coached at the Highlands at Super Rugby, but was snapped up super quick to be the attack coach for Argentina, and his mark has been profound. This recording is done directly after Argentina has beaten the British and Irish Lions in Dublin A historic achievement with Kenny's imprint all over. He's just landed back in Buenos Aires and regrouping for the England International Series which is coming. We sit down and we dive into his philosophies and how he goes about shaping teams to undeniable success. Here he is, kenny. Great to have you on the show, mate. First question we love to ask is how do you define culture?
Speaker 1:first question we love to ask is how do you define culture? Yeah, thanks for having me. Firstly, ben, culture.
Speaker 1:I think a good culture is the environment you create to maximize the potential of the group.
Speaker 1:I think you do that by living the values that you've created, and I think you live them first from the top down, from the people at the top, modeling them. And I think there's a couple of key ingredients to make any culture successful, because I think a key thing about cultures is you want them to be unique, but you've got to have within them, you've got to have connectedness or belonging for the people involved, and then you've got to have a sense of self-autonomy, whereas the players, if we're talking about that, or the people, if you're in a business, they feel like they've got a voice, they feel like they can be heard and they also feel like they can get better. And I think when you've got all those things put together, you've got a good culture. Like I think about culture sometimes, but you can feel it when you go in. I've loved going in for, like, professional development and going into different environments and you can go in there and you feel that culture and strong ones certainly leave thinking, yeah, they've got a good culture in place.
Speaker 2:What does that feel like, mate? How do you feel that when you go in?
Speaker 1:You just see the shared behaviours, you see how people welcome you, you see how people speak to each other, you hear the language that's used between people, and also you can see cultures which possibly are underperforming or for whatever reason and you can see that then as well where maybe there's less eye contact, there's less physical contact, there's less communication, there's less laughter. It can be a multitude of things, but yeah, I think it's one of the things I've always enjoyed doing when I go into environments is getting a feel for it.
Speaker 2:It's actually interesting. You comment on the welcome you get when you come into someone's environment and you just said then, in good environments, people feel like they have a voice. And I'm just thinking just then, like the way people welcome you into environments, them being proud of their environment and having a voice around it by someone's new one having a voice. That's interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think so. I remember the storm, storm. People love go to visit them and you know that's the kind of place where you can just be watching training and you're just some you know token guy on the sideline. But every single player I remember came up and said hi and introduced themselves and seemed generally interested in what was happening and what you do. And then, um, then they jumped on the field and switched on really quick and then they jumped on the field and switched on really quick and then had a really hard training session and you just got that feeling that they welcomed you in. And I've seen that in a few different environments like that.
Speaker 1:And it's not to say that because I listen to Ben Darwin, I'm on with you a few podcasts ago and I was talking about cohesion and the importance of that and I certainly am a big believer in that in terms of the importance of cohesion.
Speaker 1:So culture may not be everything, but it's certainly a really important cog to maximising what you have and keeping your group together for as long as possible and having a place that people enjoy coming to work.
Speaker 1:There's an element of culture that you set up at the start of seasons and you you co-create, I guess, with the players. That's the best way and you know you go about it. But I also think you've got to allow space within that for some things to happen organically, like, and I think those can be the best parts of your culture which, yeah, like you know, leaders you do, you come up with the values and the vision, but there's also a part of it which I think just happens over time and some of those things can be a really cool part of your culture which, before you know, you know you don't even realize. Yeah, like I'm just seeing that develop with how we are after games and how the guys celebrate in the changing rooms and what they do, and I kind of want to take that and then grow it. But it's nothing that's been spoken about or it's nothing that's we haven't sat around in groups and done that, it's just happening. I think you can grab that and go with it.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, mate. Couldn't agree more. Well, mate, when we're just talking about the welcoming here, so currently you are the attack coach for Argentina and you've been in there since last year and you're just fresh off. This week marks a pretty historic moment where you've just beaten the Lions. But let's, if we can just go back to mate, how, how were you welcomed in as a New Zealander, going into the Argentinian environment? How were you welcomed into that culture?
Speaker 1:Firstly, I was welcomed in by the staff and the head coach, felipe Felipe Contomponi, originally and, yeah, I certainly felt a part of the team very quickly and I certainly felt like I had autonomy in what I was doing and that, you know, felipe trusted in what I was doing pretty quickly. You know Felipe trusted in what I was doing pretty quickly. And in terms of the playing group, yeah, like it's a really unique environment we have here. It's a really cool culture and I absolutely love it and I think, being a, I am the token foreigner in the group. But I just had the sensation the guys loved it and they were looking, they were wanting that, they were wanting a little bit of a different point of view. They were, they were interested in what I could bring Um and, at the same time, appreciated that I was. I understood well I was doing. I did my very best to to understand where they came from and how they play and what the DNA of this team is first. So, yeah, I certainly felt welcome.
Speaker 2:In terms of the culture around one of the big things in Argentina like how, how was the family side of stuff?
Speaker 1:Yeah, the the family part of it is is a huge thing and often when you you speak to people about joining organizations or joining teams, people will speak about it as being an important part. But then when you come to the nuts and bolts or you're nitty gritty and you come into the season and maybe you've lost a couple, or then suddenly that doesn't become as important, whereas what I've noticed here is it really is like I see it is. Often we have the families with us in the hotels. Often after games we have big Sunday barbecues or asados and all of the families are there.
Speaker 1:For me, the union have been fantastic in that any chance I have a downtime, they fly me home to see my family. They're very, very family-based and I think Argentinians in general are. They've got big, extended families and, yeah, it's a powerful, powerful part of it. So, yeah, it certainly helps for me because I know, you know, when I first spoke to my wife about going away, it was how long I'd be away, but because it's such an important part, then I get to see my family a lot because they do get me home whenever they can.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that because often in a lot of cultures the kind of family piece is seen as almost distraction and that you've got to keep the family away because they'll distract players, they'll distract coaches, that kind of attitude, but clearly not the case in that culture.
Speaker 1:No, and I've seen firsthand whether people have anything to do with their family, whether that might be a baptism, or maybe a family member who's a little ill or for whatever reason. Life happens, and I've seen examples where it just always takes number one priority and that you make sure you're right in terms of your family and your family's right, and then that'll, in turn, help the person who's going to be maybe missing a bit of time but then coming back in a better place. So it's great. It's great to be a part of something like that.
Speaker 2:Couldn't agree more. It's just refreshing to hear that happen, that that's happening in such a high-end performance environment that family is placed right up there with a key part of success.
Speaker 1:It's awesome. There's one element that I really enjoy with the argentinian culture and that's how connected they are with amateur rugby. So a lot of the, a lot of the players now, um, like, if I we ever get together on a on, we're in on a saturday and we don't have a game, then they'll be all watching their club teams, which is streamed on youtube by fans or some of the games are on ESPN. There's massive rivalry between the boys and the amateur club and a lot of the guys actually grow up in they're actually kind of gated communities but are built around the rugby and hockey club and it's just a huge part of where they spend their time and their identity.
Speaker 1:And I see that kind of and I feel that amateur almost, but in a good way, not amateur in a negative way the amateur mindset and how they play, because it's almost like some of them haven't been overcoached, and I think that's a really cool thing, because sometimes you can get guys and I'm talking at the top level level where you feel like, okay, yeah, there are some things. We need to really upskill them quickly, and that's true, but there's also some really cool elements of who they are coming through, that amateur ethos and that real connection to the amateur game which makes it unique. And it also helps to me because a big part of how I coach is creating competition and creating energy through competition. So big for me is I can just break them up into different clubs or where they grew up or their amateur clubs or who they're playing when I'm doing any kind of games or drills and that certainly gets the blood going for the boys.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's great. That's a cool connection piece that you're privy enough and savvy enough to realize that's important and then to draw that out when you're dividing up teams for many teams and things like that, and I can. I can imagine that would cause a lot of fizz in the team and that that creates the energy right yeah, it's certainly far easier than just as a coach saying come on, we need energy.
Speaker 1:You actually create the environment and and um, yeah, get the teams and also add on a little bit of incentives. So there'll often be um punishments or whatever that might be that the winners can come up with that, or there might be coffees getting bored or something for the losing team. So there's a fair bit. There's a fair bit on um, just a maybe a standard three versus two drill at the start of the back training.
Speaker 2:yeah, mate, especially when you've put them in their amateur support teams. They're playing for more than just the national team. They're actually pumped up for their local club side, their grassroots side. Love it, love it. Obviously it's a very different culture. How did you sort of integrate yourself into it and get a bit of buy-in and trust from the outset?
Speaker 1:Well, firstly, just trying to understand exactly how the team wanted to like for felipe, how we wanted to play, um, how we were day-to-day like, what our values were, um, what made us us as a, as a group, and from there it was all about just talking to people and connecting with people as much as possible and understanding who they were as people and then basically going from there.
Speaker 2:Nice mate. And how's the language side of things?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's pretty hard. Half the team plays in france and and speaks french, and so do a lot of the coaches. So, fortunately, because I can speak french, I can get to them that way. But the team the argentinians are good at english, so and they're used to having english-speaking coaches, like michael Checker's been here and David Kidwell, and there's been a history of Kiwi coaches right past. Even Graham Henry's been here, so it's a normal thing for them to be coached in English, which is important for them to to have that. So, um, it's getting better. My, my Spanish, but slowly. I mean they speak pretty fast. I did break out more than usual last week because we'd had the off-season. I broke out as much as I could, which gave the boys a bit of entertainment at the same time. So, yeah, it's a work in progress.
Speaker 2:Well, mate, the fact that you're prepared to do that in a public setting is a good testament to yourself in trying to create that connection by making that effort right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, that's what I learned when I was in France is you've got to show that you're making the effort, and it's not just that, it's when you do learn the language, it's when you get to know people on a deeper level and you can understand where they come from and the culture. You can really, yeah, just delve deeper into what's going on. So, yeah, that's certainly one of my work-ons outside of the footy field at the moment.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, mate I reckon that's a great phrase you learn the language and you get to know people at a deeper level. I reckon that even applies to English, mate. The more you can learn to speak and communicate with, even in your native tongue, with people, you actually do get to know people at a deeper level, and that flows through. Now, mate, I would love to, before we sort of dissect around what you did to beat the Lions, mate, I'd love to go into a little bit of your background, mate. So you're at Leon for eight years coaching. Previously you're a player. You learned the language, you went through all of the coaching sort of steps. You had backs and skills, then you flicked to attack and then you flicked to defense and then you became head role. So you sort of coached all the way up to running that team and the team did very well. How was that experience for you, mate, in your coaching journey, to to go through everything like the d, the attack, the backs and skills, the head coaching how did that shape you as a coach?
Speaker 1:yeah, well, it was a. You know that. Yeah, that was an amazing time I had in France. I loved Lyon, I loved the club, I loved the city. I remember actually getting the opportunity because we were in second division at the time and we were about sure to go up to top 14.
Speaker 1:And the head coach, pierre we only had two coaches at the time and I knew Pierre was interviewing coaches for the top 14 season and I had just been told by a surgeon that my knee was headed and that I could probably squeeze out a few more seasons, but I'd be struggling when I'm over 40. And I thought, oh well, I'd rather be able to chase my kids around in my 40s than hurt me. And so I'd effectively been retired, even though I was halfway through the season. And so Pierre said to me oh look, if you're keen, you can start helping out with trainings on a trial basis, and I'll keep interviewing coaches and if I see anything there, maybe there could be an opportunity for you. And so that's how it happened.
Speaker 1:I actually flew home, I had a bit of time off, like a Christmas after my operation and speaking of a time with Tony Brown and Jamie at the Highlanders, and entailed them for a bit and I came back with a few extra ideas and I'd always really really wanted to coach. Um, like, I think teaching's a bit inside me. I love pedagogy. My brother's a teacher, so I had I had ideas about doing it and then, yeah, I got the opportunity at the end of that season and moved straight in with Leon. Yeah, it was great, because getting to coach all parts of the game just helps so much in understanding what the players see and what other coaches are going through and also how to communicate with other coaches. So that was fantastic. I mean, french rugby is just it's, it's, it's a madhouse Like it's amazing.
Speaker 1:It's never dull, um, but you certainly learn different things. I really, you know, learn to appreciate that there's different ways to play the game, um, different ways to train, different ways to structure a week. You know, like I think, as a Kiwi coming over, I probably at the start thought, oh, you know, the Kiwi way is the way or the best way. But certainly, you know, working with different coaches, seeing different ways of playing in the competitions and you know, just, it really helped me understand that. Yeah, that's the great thing about sport and about rugby is there's so many ways to do it. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And what about the cultural aspect of both France and New Zealand and even Argentina now? Any real big differences in the way you do things across those three?
Speaker 1:we have coached Well, I think so, like now with professional rugby, yeah, the players and their demands are similar, um, off field, slightly different.
Speaker 1:I think you know, like when I first went to France, I remember I had a group of group of bats and some of them were older than me and, like we had um guys like Fred Mishalak in the in the group or really experienced, you know legends of the game and I started using a lot more questioning in the way that I run meetings and the way that I coach and I I remember at the start, not getting too much back and I remember talking to some of the guys about it, some of the french guys and I'd say you know, why aren't I getting too much back?
Speaker 1:And you know, um, they said, well, like some of the ways in France, sometimes, if you're kind of getting through your days at school and you're not answering questions from the teacher, it's kind of a good thing. So it's not about putting your hand up and it's like a totally different cultural way. And I think that when we were going, this was like 2015, 2016. At the time there was a change in the way coaches were doing it with the amount of questioning. They were using the amount of player input, but that wasn't something that was part of their culture and part of their way of doing things, which definitely took time to develop within the group.
Speaker 2:And how did you do that? So questioning is becoming a big part of modern coaching, particularly in this sport. How did you get that coming back at you? How did you get people actually answering questions? Was it a slow burn?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was, but it was also like I'd use a bit of scaffolding in, so I'd speak to players beforehand. I think I got better as a coach as well, because I think there's a little bit of a misunderstanding around questioning and if you just fire a question out there you're doing it right, whereas really effective questioning is different to that. Like so I would, I would speak to players beforehand about what I was going to speak about. I was possibly going to ask them about certain things, to have a think about that to um, to signal what I was going to be questioning about to the group, first showing them clips and help them grow in their understanding and then how to respond, as well as me just firing kind of cold calling out there all the time.
Speaker 2:So is that kind of a tactic to almost give primer questions before the question, and what was the response to that? Did they appreciate that and got them thinking?
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely Like it takes time to grow within a group and a lot of professional rugby players now a lot of levels are used to it and so you'll get that buy-in quicker. But certainly priming first and then, yeah, once they feel like again, that's part of that cultural bit where people feel like they have the voice. That's an example of giving them that voice where they feel like it's again it's. That's part of that cultural bit where people feel like they have the voice.
Speaker 2:that's an example of giving them that voice where they they feel like they can be heard and and they're creating how you want to play with you it's also, isn't it like a confidence piece, say, for, for that person to know the question, that they're more comfortable to say it because they've had time to think about what a good answer is? And probably the effect of that too for the group is the whole group goes oh wow, timmy over there just spoke up and answered that question. How good. Then it gives almost a platform for the next person to pull out. It's almost like a compounding snowball effect, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and I think you can help them as a coach as well by the way you respond and sometimes you do ask questions and guys are possibly off target. You know as a coach as well by the way you respond and sometimes you do ask questions and guys are possibly off target in what you're looking for in an answer. You can help them by the way you respond and to let other people maybe grow on that answer, or if you shoot guys down pretty quickly, you can create that kind of environment. We know I'm going to get it wrong. So, yeah, you know, and it depends a lot as well on the people you're asking.
Speaker 1:You know like I remember one time I had Josh Tuisova in my group and you know that was only his first. He just joined us and he's the most awesome, humble human being you've ever come across. And yeah, I remember my first ever meeting. I just shot him a cold question straight away and he just kind of stared back at me and I thought, oh hell, you know like I've put him in an uncomfortable situation here. So, yeah, it's about certainly knowing your people and then knowing your group and then setting them up so that they can you know you can help them develop themselves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, setting them up, setting them up for success, isn't it? How do you respond, mate, when someone says something that is completely the opposite of what you want to hear? Have you got a couple of go-to responses that you use to just?
Speaker 1:not show. I guess you could just be like oh well, that could be an option we could take, but we probably wouldn't take in this reason. Or has anyone else got any other ideas about what we could do in this situation? Something like that, maybe where you can, yeah, without just straight up saying no. I mean it depends on the person and maybe they can take it and it depends on the situation. But I think you've got to try and grow the group's confidence to speak up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, love it, mate. And so, mate, you did eight years coaching there. Obviously that's a great experience to coach in a foreign language. You're now fluent in French, the family's all raised there, and then you made the shift back to hometown. The Highlanders coached there and then, pretty much straight away, you just got plucked into international coaching with Argentina. Obviously, that speaks volumes in itself about yourself as a coach. But, mate, how was that? You know, has that always been a dream of yours to get to that international stage?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it has. Yeah, I was manifesting that pretty hard throughout my, you know, when I was coaching, I didn't know what it would look like or when. Or you know, like we came home, we had a fantastic time in France, we loved Lyon, but we felt like we were ready for a change, especially for the family, for my children. We wanted them to be Kiwi kids, we wanted them to rock around on bare feet and the time was right to change. And I had an opportunity with the Highlanders, which is, you know, that was my team back home, and so I was so thankful just to get that and come home and have a crack at coaching in super rugby as well, because I really did want to keep learning, I wanted to coach with Kiwis and being in those environments. So, yeah, I did that and loved it, loved being back with the Highlanders, and I did learn a lot.
Speaker 1:It's a really key thing for me. I want to feel like I'm getting stretched. I want to feel like I'm getting stretched. I want to feel like I'm a little bit uncomfortable and so, moving out of that French environment where I'd done a bit of everything and been there a long time, that was ideal for me. And then, yeah, near the end of that season, I just got a call absolutely out of the blue from Felipe asking if I'd be keen to get involved with Argentina, and so, yeah, that was a bit of a shock. And then it was about working through is it possible A family-wise, is it possible A can I leave the Highlanders and join them? And so there's a fair bit of working through that. But, yeah, like, firstly, like with you know, the Highlanders and New Zealand Rugby were awesome with it, and then my wife Bex, who's a legend. Once we figured out how long I was going to be away and how to work, then, yeah, we went at it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what do you reckon of this mate Like for coaches listening to this? Obviously probably not many are at your level but, like at any level, getting that break. What do you reckon it is that, apart from your sort of skill as a coach, is there anything else which helps people get breaks? Do you reckon, or like I heard a phrase, that people leave cheerleaders behind everywhere they go? What do you reckon led Contoponi to seek you, find you, seek you out and make the call.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it had been without going into too much detail, but I guess there had been a bit of a connection, word of mouth, through coaches who I had coached with, who he knew he was looking for a coach who could do certain things, and then it was. I guess it's yeah, when you ever do get a chance, it's about the job that you do, how you make people feel and how you help people and how you work and um, I think that's that's the ultimate thing. I mean, um, there is a traditional way of going about things in terms of having a cv and and doing that, but there's also a lot of it through through word of mouth and um, and yeah, it's a small community at the end of the day, isn't it the rugby scene?
Speaker 2:Yeah, righto, mate. And now you've got that role at Argentina and you're absolutely smashing it. I think last year for Argentina there were some of the best results they've had in the championship and you said something after sort of the season. It's just, your focus was always just little steps, like every week, every day, just getting better and better rather than getting too carried away. But the growth of the Argentinian rugby team presently has just been phenomenal, right? Have you got any thoughts on how that's growing and why that's growing so fast?
Speaker 1:Honestly, like Felipe, is amazing. So, as a head coach, what he's done is he's instilled a kind of culture where there's certain values that we live out every day. He models them as a leader and that's really helped this group. The team itself is unique in that, for these players, the vast majority of them play in Europe and so when you think about, say, kiwis or Aussies, or maybe different for South Africans, but you know, like if you're playing in Super Rugby, you're part of a Kiwi culture, whether you're in the Chiefs or the Highlanders, or if you're Aussie in the Waratahs, whereas all of these players are overseas, so they're playing in Toulouse or they're in Benetton or they're in Connacht, and this is their chance to be truly Argentinian and that's what makes us so cool, and so you feel that you feel that with them they're extremely proud people, as all countries are, but they don't get the chance to be, you know, I guess, argentinian as much.
Speaker 1:In the year. It's now for the Pumas, and so for us, we really doubled down on that, on who we are and what the DNA is and what it means to be playing for the Pumas, and that's where Felipe has set it up so well, that's in terms of the off-field staff and how we behave, and on-field as to how we play. And so there's a couple of the other coaches as well are fantastic Andreas Boroi, who does the forwards, and Juan Monti and Fernandez Lobbe. They're great guys, they're like great, great people, and it's the same with all the staff. So I think that's a big part of the growth that we're seeing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when you say, double down on the DNA, what is, do you reckon, the DNA of the Argentinian culture?
Speaker 1:It's pretty fierce in the contact when you think about how they chop, tackle. They're really proud of that. There's an element, I think, of Argentinian which have been strong scrummages, and there's a set piece, part of it, which we're working on, we're building, and there's the innate Latin flair which Argentinians have and that is just awesome to coach. And when I say coach, it's almost about, without kind of getting the wording wrong, but undercoaching, in that you want to simplify everything to allow them to play free and allow them to see space and remove fear. And that's how I see coaching.
Speaker 2:Um, and, and that's a part of what we're trying to do, yeah, I took a quote from you on that which said you were talking about the team. You're saying I want them to be brave, want I want them to be free and I don't want to restrict the way they play. I thought it was a lovely phrase you said a little while ago. And how do you balance that out with the detail and the focus?
Speaker 1:particularly on attack, on some of that subtlety.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, again, although we're just four coaches and Felipe's head coach and does the D, but he's also got a big attack brain and that was another reason why I wanted to join this team.
Speaker 1:I knew I could be learning a lot from him, and so he's very good in terms of structured stuff, and so I will bounce ideas off him. We talk about attacking d a lot and so keeping that kind of detail in how we attack, whether that be in the structured side of the attack, we can get that and I can get that as well from you, you know, tapping into his knowledge. And then it's about, yeah, just just making sure that the guys are like we basically are really big principles-based coaches, and so how we coach is first, principles first, and then we allow, we give the players a bit of a framework and within that they can make decisions, and so, yeah, there's time to give them detail and they do like that. But it's also about not overloading them and making sure that when they arrive on the Saturday, they're super clear in how they want to play, but they're free and they're ready to throw caution to the wind.
Speaker 2:What would be some examples of principles for a principles-based coach?
Speaker 1:Well, it might be, I don't know like running hard into space, right?
Speaker 2:so if that's your principle, you just. Everything derives from that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and then from there you can solve whatever you know without getting too bogged down in details. Yeah, like it's most important, I think, to understand how you want to play through that, and then that can help set you up for how you design your sessions and how you review your games and how you review your trainings and how you give individual feedback. You can always just resort back to your principles of play.
Speaker 2:I love it, mate. And another thing you actually said when you're talking about sort of principles when you got this role, I got a line from you that you said you're going over there to grow great people as well as the way we play, and I thought that was a lovely balance between even at international level, there's still that focus on the people side of stuff, and is it even more so at international level? You're trying to grow people, or is it all about the game?
Speaker 1:No, no, it's certainly not all about the game. I mean, you got to understand the business we're in and that we're representing, you know argentina and and we're we're trying to win test match rugby, yeah, and and um, get as high in the rankings as we can. But you do that through growing people as well, and so it's a mix For me. I'm all about like I'll connect before I'll correct, and that's where it all starts. That's the same how I structure my week, how I'll structure my trainings, how I'll structure my videos, anything I'll always go back to that and through your connection you're growing people and through your coaching you're growing people. I guess you can coach situations, you can coach moments in the game, you can coach off the ball behavior, and it's all about kind of like growing people you know as individuals and you'll get those kind of like growing people you know as individuals and you'll get those kind of habits you want to see through doing that yeah, I love that phrase.
Speaker 2:My connect before you're correct, does that just? Does that phrase sort of entice you like if you're better connected with someone, your, your, your correction points will land better when you do them. Is that the kind of principle behind that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it always does. It also can help shape the correction you're going to make as well, if you do need to make a correction, because you can see things on the field and players might make decisions and you might have a correction for them if that's the case. But sometimes you need to understand first what they were seeing or what they were feeling or what they were hearing. Um, sometimes when you're seeing behaviors in a gym or in a training session, or before training or after training, and it's it might not align with what you're after, or, or you won't ever talk to them about it, but more often than not there's there's deeper reasoning behind it, and so you've got to connect. First. You've got to understand where they're at. Maybe things are happening off field or within the group or outside the group, and you get that first, and then that can certainly help shape what that next kind of conversation is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, mate, absolutely it's sort of interesting. We were talking about off here just before about the parenting journey, and I think that mirrors coaching a lot, right, and with a parent, you kind of know the background that your kids are going through and you can put a bit of emotion and empathy in that. But the same principles apply to anyone in your teams too, right? Yeah, that's right. And now, kenny, you've just come off, we're filming, we're recording this. On the weekend, you just had probably one of the most historic wins in Argentinian history. Maybe you beat the British and Irish Lions in Dublin, and I'd just like to dive into that fact, mate, how did you approach that game from a cultural perspective? You went to Dublin, which is arguably the home of British and Irish Lions, and there was a sea of red, and you went in there and you played a fantastic game of rugby, got high pressure and you had a great performance. How did you approach it as a coaching staff around, building that game up from a cultural perspective? How did you approach?
Speaker 1:it. Everything was about. So we'd obviously just come off the off-season the international off-season for us and all the players had been scattered all over the world, yep, and how we shaped the week in terms of mindset was just refinding our DNA as quickly as possible, so who we are, how we play, our principles and how that looks. So it started by started the week by, firstly, you know, we started with our culture. That was the first thing we did. We only got the team together on the Sunday night, and that can happen in international footy. We only have a week to prepare for a game, um, and so we got the guys together on the sunday night. We played on the friday, so we had a couple of days to get everything in place to get a performance in.
Speaker 1:But yeah, our first, our first few hours were all about culture. So that was just really pushing the, I guess, the, the values of who we are and the behaviors and and and then going back to you know what we wanted to see on the field, which was, which was the permits dna, and it was all about that all week driving that sort of um alignment that we're all doing the same thing yes, so it was about, yeah, definitely, who we are, what that looks like on the field, and there was there was underlying, I guess there was there was conversations, especially from the leaders, about just how grateful we are and fortunate we were to to have a chance to play against the Lions and that for Argentina, that had happened 20 years ago.
Speaker 1:It's a generation, it's a once in a generation chance and it's a big stage the Lions and you know world rugby really does look and we just knew what an awesome opportunity to showcase what Argentina rugby is about and kind of where this team is at the moment as well. So it was exciting. It was exciting for the week because the guys were, they knew the occasion but were just super excited about putting Pumas rugby on the stage.
Speaker 2:So you said, like you came together with just a week's notice, or just a week together, did you do anything to like, obviously, people coming from everywhere, all over france and different places. How did you bring people together quickly? Did you do anything different or abnormal or uniquely to to bring them together?
Speaker 1:every week, we have a asado as a team and um, um, you know, like a Argentinian barbecue, which is hugely important and it's it's one of the highlights of the week, cuz, man, there's some quality red meat, it's cooked, it's cooked by the front rowers and, oh God, they put in some good time. And, yeah, you can't, you can't get behind the, the, the Asado, and cook, you gotta be a front rower. Um, but yeah, so, like they put in some good time and yeah, you can't get behind the asado and cook, you've got to be a front rower. But yeah, so there's that, which is just, that's just part of what we do every week.
Speaker 2:Do you start on Monday with the barbecue? Is that how it rolls?
Speaker 1:No, we have the Monday sorry, the barbecue after our biggest training day for the players' day off. But no, we kind of had a reasonably standard week. We also wanted to prepare the guys as best we could, like a normal test week, even though it wasn't an official test match. The guys who debuted because we did have a decent amount of guys straight out of the South American, the new Super Rugby, south America's competition you know they had to learn the calls. You know like we were teaching them the name of like what a pot is off nine. You know like there was different. There was levels of integration that we had to get everyone's heads around to be able to play on the Friday. But it wasn't too dissimilar to a normal test week. There was just a massive emphasis on us. Do you worry about?
Speaker 2:like you talked earlier about not overloading players. Is that a real risk? When you're coming, you've just got a week, a big game. You want to chuck in a whole lot of stuff. Do you actually have to stop sometimes and go look, let's not put too much in here, because otherwise we'll be thinking too much in the game and we just want to be our instinctive best?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess you've got to understand. I guess what's going to give you your biggest bang for your buck and what you spend time on during the week to prepare them to perform. And yeah, certainly the old amount you're giving them, the old cognitive load's important, but at the same time I think sometimes we can underestimate what they can take in. And if you do it at the right times and allow them to practice it and allow them to process it, then yeah, you don't want to be overloading too much information later in the week, but there was a little bit to get in at the start.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right, and was there any pressure out there? Did anyone have a feeling? I know there's a lot of seasoned campaigners in there, but was there any inkling of pressure in the big stage of this particular game, as opposed to normal test matches?
Speaker 1:I just felt it was similar. It was similar to a normal test match. For us, that was which which, yes, there's, there's pressure, which is that good kind of pressure which you want, um, which you want to embrace, and yeah, it just it felt normal, it felt it was an amazing occasion, like the crowd was just humming and you know, the lions and lion in the uk is a rare thing and I think it's actually special because their last tour was the COVID tour, you know, in South Africa, and this was the first time there'd been a crowd, really a proper full crowd, for a Lions game since 2017. So it's certainly made for an extra special occasion.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I bet, mate. And were you happy with the performance on field? If you're going back to your coaching head, did it tick all the boxes or do you still have a few critiques that you want to remedy?
Speaker 1:Because I think what you did see was Pumas Rugby in terms of the defence and some of those tries we scored Awesome. In the same sense, you know, the Lions weren't far off and they had only a couple of weeks together, but they're bringing together a whole new set of calls and systems and they got a couple of tries disallowed. They certainly broke the line a lot and had opportunities which they'll finish in a few weeks. They'll be there or thereabouts. They're well coached and they've got a great team. So we're realistic around that. But no, I mean, sometimes you've got to sit back in and you know, sometimes in rugby you can move on pretty fast and move to the next thing quite quickly. But I think it's important that you, you know, did certainly have a couple of moments thinking, yeah, that's cool, I'm super proud of what the team did that day.
Speaker 2:That's awesome, mate. And did the passion, the DNA of the passion, from Argentina flow into the rest of the evening?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean music's a big part of who we are and there was certainly some yeah, there was some good singing going on in the changing rooms, a few conga lines, but I mean the guys are pretty good there. In that sense, I do find this group like it's not something I ever have to worry about or think about as a coach in terms of maybe overdoing it. In terms of the celebrations they certainly enjoy it, but, um, yeah, like it's it's. It's an interesting kind of feel in that they they keep a lid on it.
Speaker 2:Do you reckon that's? Do you reckon, reckon that modern rugby has changed in that regard? Like a long time ago, the celebrating side of things was a big part of the reason people played. Do you think that's shifting in modern rugby?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've seen it. I think it depends on your group. I've seen some. I think it depends on your group. I mean I think I've. I've. I've seen some groups still still do it probably overall as a generalization year and play it coming through younger, into a more professional systems quicker and have a little bit more understanding of the pros and cons and how it can affect your recovery and your career in general. So yeah, there's been a bit of a change for that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's certainly. I remember a while ago the sort of the court session mentality where you'd all be in a dingy room with a keg of beer in the middle. Those sort of days are not as prevalent as they once were, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, not as prevalent, although don't get me wrong, it's always important to have some good time together like that there's always a balance for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love it, mate, you have those ones. And now, mate, throughout your experience, your coaching to date, have you had any moments where you might have got a few things sort of wrong culturally, where you've especially coming from, where you've come from the time in France, the time in New Zealand, the time in Argentina have you ever had any misses that you've learned from? That would be beneficial for other coaches working their way up the ranks to here.
Speaker 1:Oh God, I'm sure I've had plenty Culturally. You've just got to understand that you want to ride the wave of wherever you are, rather than fighting the tide. And I think you've just got to figure out the little ways you can get in, maybe what you have from your rugby upbringing or your culture which could add value. But you've just really got to understand where they're coming from and why they do things. And yeah, although I can't, to be fair, I can't think of of of specifics, um, yeah, it's, it's just, it's just so important that, yeah, you, you first you meet, you meet teams where they are and players where they are, and you know you, and then from there you go for it, rather than coming in thinking, oh, I'm gonna do it this way. Um, because that's what's so cool, is there's such different ways of playing such different, isn't it every team's different right?
Speaker 1:yeah, teams are different, competitions are different. Um, I think that's what makes the top 14 so interesting is there's so many different ways of playing and teams have different styles and certain ways of winning, and when it's warmer and then when it's winter and you've got to grind it out. So it certainly makes it interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I always remember the winter, three months over, and the premiership in the UK was a very different rugby that was played towards the summer end, in the finals. It changed completely. Yeah, it's fascinating. It was a very different rugby that was played towards the summer end, in the finals. It changed completely. Yeah, it's fascinating. And where to next for you, mate? What's the challenge now with this Argentinian team that you're currently in the throws of the international calendar? What's your focus points? Where are you taking this team?
Speaker 1:Any unique ways in. Where are you going? Oh well, like, we know that we had a good season last year, but the reality is we had some good games followed by some poor games, results-wise. And so a big one for us is growing our consistency in how we prepare every week, which then allows us to have a consistent performance, to give us a chance. I think that's something that we're pushing really hard as coaches.
Speaker 1:And then there's the part with this team of we're capable of beating anyone our day, but our next step is to really grow depth, um, with the pumas. And so that's that's a giving giving opportunities to, to younger or less experienced international players, um, you know, coaching them hard and and setting them up well and then giving them opportunity to play for the pumumas, which will then, yeah, build more depth. That's something that's really important for us. And then, yeah, I guess it's just about keep being consistent and keep building up Argentina on the world stage, because it's always been kind of. You know, they've really made strides. They've made strides in the last probably 10 years, been really, really good in World Cups, which is often just through the fact that they've had time to spend longer time together. But it'll be about being really consistent in between World Cups as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's an interesting concept you talked about, about giving people to grow depth. You give them a little bit of exposure. How do you manage that at an international level, where clearly you want results? But is that where you give the exposure to the younger guys, or do they have to earn it first? Or what's the balance between throwing a young player out there for exposure versus putting the best person on the field?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a fine line because, again, you're in the results business. But if you really align as a staff about what you're doing and it's certainly not about throwing guys out there if they're not ready it's making sure that you get them into the environment and understand how you play. And then you see them performing at training and you think, okay, it's time to do it. Maybe surround them with experienced players and with a game plan that suits them. I mean, for us it's interesting because all the players play overseas.
Speaker 1:There's no kind of national union to manage their minutes, which often you get in, say, super Rugby or the Irish might be able to manage the minutes in the urc, whereas our guys will, will finish and then they're into it, and so it's kind of on us to do that in a way which which is it's actually a good thing, like we look at that because it's it's we're thinking well, we will do that. We're going to do that for this upcoming english series with with some of our regular guys. But we're going to do that for this upcoming English series with some of our regular guys, but we're going to give them time so they can recover and rejuvenate and give them a bit of a pre-season and that then allows us to blood younger guys. So, yeah, it's in a way forced on us in a way, but it's also a really positive thing.
Speaker 2:I love how you shift that, mate. You take what's happening in front of you and just shifting it to make it a really exciting thing, and taking ownership and accountability. It's freaking awesome, Kenny. Love it Now, mate. It's been awesome chatting to you, mate, and I'm sort of still buzzing about that game. It was just wonderful to see. But the question I want to finish with with mate is is one that I ask regularly at the finish here is about what's one belief you have about rugby or culture that you think your peers in the game might disagree with.
Speaker 1:One belief you have yeah, there's actually something recently I've just I've just learned which has surprised me. But well, this is just for other coaches out there and this is more about the teaching side of things. But the whole kind of when you're presenting and how people learn, the whole kind of like learning styles of visual or auditory or kinesthetic things that's all basically baloney, that it's not actually a thing, that science doesn't back it, and I think it's good because I learned that recently and it sent me down a different kind of line of learning. How do people learn? And yeah, I just I would recommend that to coaches is, to start with, to understand that you do want to present ideas and different methods to make it interesting, and so that might be using pictures or visual and then speaking about it or maybe doing it, but that's not actually. People aren't going to learn better because it's visually or because it's auditory or doing yeah, that's fascinating.
Speaker 2:You talk about the learning style, all that stuff, because I heard a a phrase myself that there's no such thing as learning styles, just teaching styles, and I thought there was a good shift in that around. The way you teach of course needs to be varied because people are different. You just inherently should be trying different ways. One way won't hit everybody, so you've got to teach it in different ways. I thought it was interesting. What else did you pick up from that? Made that learning style thing? Where was that quote? Was that a bit of research or where's that come from?
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I love, like Doug Limov, and kind of figuring out how people learn, and I guess it's a little bit forced on me doing it in a different language and I want to make sure that the point I'm getting across is actually getting across, and so then you know, like you, you learn about retrieval and checking for understanding and and spacing. Those kinds of things are all really key, key parts of learning, and so I think it's it more came from me thinking oh, oh, jesus, is what I'm actually doing here, getting through and then to understand how do people learn. So, yeah, I really enjoy that part of coaching, the pedagogy side of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love it, mate. And just in reference to Douglas Mauve, I've actually passed him on this podcast previously too to give him a listen, because he is absolutely outstanding and for any coach and leader to read and listen to. Some of his work is awesome for that pedagogy side of things. And he's outstanding, isn't? He Love it? Righto Well, kenny. Thank you so much for your time today, mate. I appreciate you've just been on the long-haul flight back to Buenos Aires after a fantastic win in the weekend, mate, and I'm wishing you all the best on the English series that's coming up, and no doubt Argentina's in fantastic hands with you at the helm, encouraging that flair and trying to reduce any sort of restriction. So we're getting the type of champagne rugby that Argentina are making a name for themselves with. So what a pleasure, brother.
Speaker 1:Thanks very much, Ben, Much appreciated mate.
Speaker 2:Here's my final three thoughts from a conversation with Kenny. Number one be effective with your questions. Simply throwing questions out into a room isn't always effective. Often it can create a big drop in confidence. Not everyone can answer questions off the cuff or instantly. Kenny used primers, gave people a heads up on what he was going to be asking A simple way to create confidence at question time. Set them up for success. Number two connect before correct. I love this because understanding the person first is a good thing. It allows you to adjust the correction you're going to give and how to give it. Understanding the background allows you to be flexible in how you deliver your messages to make it land optimally. Number three the amateur mindset. This is cool. I love this because reminding people that whatever level of the game you're currently playing at, that it's always a game. Sometimes, with the perceived pressures of performance, this slips to the side. Remind players and yourself about the joys and love of the game and how you were when you started this sport when you were young. Until next time, stay well.