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Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Simon Cron: Scars Make You Stronger.
Simon Cron, head coach of the Western Force, opens up just days before his team's monumental clash with the British and Irish Lions—a once-in-a-generation opportunity that comes around only every 12 years. With remarkable candor, he reveals his approach to preparing players for high-pressure situations through mental clarity rather than tactical complexity.
"You're not trying to think a whole lot, you're just trying to do, and that's the only way you can get it done," Cron explains, sharing how overthinking paralyzes performance. His philosophy of "mindset, skill set, structure" provides a framework not just for individual training sessions but for building sustainable team culture. This approach has transformed the Force from having zero Wallabies representatives to now contributing nine players to the national team.
Cron's insights on leadership development are particularly valuable, describing how he had to rebuild leadership structures from scratch upon arriving at the Force. Rather than simply appointing captains, he created a cyclical system where experienced leaders mentor emerging ones, recognizing that leadership is something learned through observation and practice. His journey includes lessons from rugby legends like Wayne Smith and Steve Hansen, particularly around maintaining coaching longevity despite the demanding nature of the profession.
Perhaps most fascinating is Cron's description of the "conflict continuum"—his philosophy that high-performance environments must operate in the challenging middle ground between artificial harmony and destructive criticism. Like building muscle requires stress and recovery, building resilient players and teams requires the right amount of productive discomfort. The conversation provides a masterclass in creating accountability while maintaining respect and relationships.
Ready to transform your approach to leadership and team culture? This episode delivers practical wisdom from the crucible of professional rugby that applies across all competitive environments. What difficult conversations should you be having to move your team forward?
This is a really important game and it's a once in a generation game. You're not trying to think a whole lot, you're just trying to do, and that's the only way you can get it done. You have to try and disengage from the fact that emotionally you want them to be secure and comfortable, but for the team it's not the right decision. You can't have artificial harmony because you're never going to grow. So you're constantly kind of bouncing between hard conversations and maybe now and then you'll step over the mark and that will scar a little bit and then the person gets stronger and more resilient. There'll be times in your year where you have no balance. That's just, unfortunately. That's just what it is.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. This week's guest is Simon Cron, the head coach of the Western Force in Australia. It's an extra special week because we are talking to Crono two days out before they take on the British and Irish Lions on their first game of tour. This recording will be put out the day after the game. How good it is that a coach can actually sit down and talk about culture in the midst of the biggest game of a generation. What an absolute privilege to have this sort of insight. Here he is, righto Chrono. What a pleasure to have you here, mate. Huge game this weekend against the Lions. This is now going to be aired out the day after the Western Force take on the British and Irish Lions, so I'd love to get your perspective. You know, a couple of days out, how's the week been and how's the prep going?
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, look, it's actually quite interesting because you know, like you've probably seen in the media and the different stuff that's going on, a few of our boys have made the follow-be, so we've got a couple of those guys who've gone to camp, which is great, and then it's just about the guys in behind that and building cohesion and I suppose the positive thing for us at least we've had a couple of trainings. You know, at the end of the season we felt like we weren't training a whole lot when we were flying trains and we get to coach them and work on it and ultimately, mate, as you know, the biggest one for us now is to build their confidence. So I think the tech, tech side of it's kind of done and now we've got to try and throw them in there with a lot of confidence to kind of go at it.
Speaker 2:And how do you do that, connor, in such a big game, how do you build that confidence?
Speaker 1:in a group, I think you use your main. I suppose leaders Like you roll out the guys you know are going to give the message that you want to give. So, for example, yesterday we were talking about defence, which I know you're big on. There's a mentality to defence. There's a mentality.
Speaker 1:It can't just be X's and O's and we kind of need some of our guys, especially in our four-pack, to really front against the Lions because you know that's an area of our game where you know we've got a couple of forwards who have gone to those wallabies and the next guy next cab off the rank needs to step forward. So just rolled out Nick Cripney and asked him you know, why do you love defending so much? And you can see it, and he was like he wasn't expecting that, but it was a cool answer. He in it. But, um, it was a cool answer, he's all. He's all fire and brimstone. So, um, you know, that kind of made me ready to go. So and that helps other guys just build up their mentality for the week, you know what was?
Speaker 2:what was his answer, mate? Was it full of expletives?
Speaker 1:oh, a little bit. A little bit, but it's also. He just does it for the guy next to him. You know which is what you have to do. He does it. He loves hitting people and loves getting off the ground hitting again because he's I think he said it shows how much he cares and it shows how much he wants to play for the team. So, like I say, you know, this week's all about getting those messages across and getting the guys who will lead in the big moments on the field to deliver those messages to the team so that when it does happen and the crowd's chanting and there's a bit of a tough moment for us in the game that person steps forward again.
Speaker 2:Because it's going to be tough right, because they're coming off a loss which they will be disappointed about at home. This is the first game There'll be a lot of edge to it. I would have thought Not only are they a quality side, but they will be fizzing. To remedy that, won't they?
Speaker 1:Yeah, they will, and a powerful explosive. There's a whole lot of great stuff around their game. I thought they probably blew a few chances against the Argies, where that last pass will pop off the ground or kick it away. I think they'll remedy that and they'll be a lot harder even going into this game, and then they've got all the. If one of their players is down or injured, there's another international player behind that, so it's a great place to be.
Speaker 2:When you're preparing for a game like this Crono and you talked about then rather than X's and O's on D, it's a little bit of that fire and brimstone as well. How much of this week for you guys has been X's and O's and how much has been just getting the mentality and the culture and the environment right, leading into such a big game.
Speaker 1:I think we start with the culture and the environment and what we want to do and what we want to be known for and how we want to drive it. Then we start doing X's and O's and making sure that guys are clear on role and you know whether it be our edge defense, whether it be in the middle, spacing alignment. We work on all that during the week, technically, tactically, but then you're just constantly planting the seed in the background around what's the mentality going to be needed for us to be successful on the weekend? So I think if we just keep planting, keep planting, keep planting, then by the time it comes to Saturday, hopefully we can spark them. You know, that's the key. You've got to be able to light that fuse pretty quickly post-warm-up and during the warm-up and then roll them out there, mate.
Speaker 2:How do you layer that seeding in a week?
Speaker 1:Well, I think you don't want to live the game yet, but you need to understand how serious this game's going to be around the mentality. So you know, I think even on Monday we came in and we did a heap of skill work and touch it and some of our boys were a little bit Yahoo-y and a bit kind of trying to bring energy, which is lovely, but they just brought it their own way, you know, and we start off loading it back in the back of the hand. Doing this and it's like boys, you bring the energy. But we need you actually to be laser focused here.
Speaker 1:Like every era for us, we're going to have to defend for six phases. So I'll probably put a bullet in them early in the week, just around making sure that we understand we need to play our game and be confident. But there's no such thing as a 50-50, which we suddenly start doing all this stuff. So there's the mindset, and then it's like you and I were probably talking about mindset, skill set structure. They're the three big ones, so we're constantly layering each of those during the week and the way we structure the week is ideally to build up so that by Saturday is their peak time, ideally to build up so that by Saturday is their peak time, you know.
Speaker 2:That's a lovely little for coaches, isn't it a lovely little phrasing that 3.1, mindset, skill set, structure, in terms of being able to in that order even in an individual training session you get the mindset first, then you add in the skill set and then you add in the structure. Do you still live by that at a professional?
Speaker 1:level? Yeah, I do. We talk about it all the time here and we go as deep as okay, what's the structure like around the training? Like you said, each training has a mindset, skill set structure, making sure that we're hitting them. What are the skill sets and objectives we're trying to get out of today? Was it good enough? What were the errors that happened at training today? Were they mindset focused or was it actually something that we can fix from a skill set perspective and that varies depending on the player and then the structure of okay, how long we're training for. What intensive do we need out of it? You know, structure might be what attacking patterns we're running in terms of and what that's going to look like to target them. So you're constantly looking at mindset, skill set structure and I think that's a really good way for a coach who's coming through to kind of go. You know, what are the things I need to nail this week in those areas, without going too crazy.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And where does the mindset start? Is it before you jump on the field? Does it start the night before? What are your thoughts?
Speaker 1:I think the mindset for us started. We took them to Optus and just showed them this is where you plan boys. And then the importance of it only comes every 12 years. So how were you when it came last time? How will you be when it comes again? So just putting some foundations down around this is a really important game and it's a once-in-a-generation game. You're lucky if you're very unusual to play too. And then the stadium and what it's going to sound like, what it's going to look like, and just start to layer in that now and then the mindsets around different parts of our game. You know how do we want to play in each part of the field and what that mindset's going to take to be able to deliver. So you know that's the key stuff for us and we started early and then we build it, build it, build it, build it. And, like I say the other day, we covered defense on Tuesday.
Speaker 2:So good opportunity to roll crips out. Love it. And what do you think about how, when you're talking about building it up, is there a danger that you're over aroused in such a big game like this?
Speaker 1:Well, I think the key thing is to not over arouse, but also you've got to make sure they understand what's coming. Yeah, in other words, that would be a mistake. If you don't, yeah, that's right. So even the sound, the noise, that kind of stuff, and you can do that in small patches. You're not going to do it for two hours of drilling them about mindset, but you can, like I say, just roll quips out, have them yarn about D that's what we need this weekend, boys, you know and then roll into training.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know and do you use a lot of your leaders to help back you up in some of this mindset stuff. Are they key to?
Speaker 1:Like critical, critical, and we probably didn't have that when we first got into the force. We didn't have, for whatever reason. There was no real leadership structure or secondary leadership structure in the group. And you know you had some amazing players before we arrived, like Thrushy Kahui, guys that are real big leaders, but they weren't really utilized for that a whole lot, from what Thrushy tells me. So as a result of that, we didn't have that cyclic effect of other leaders, younger leaders learning from the higher leaders. So we based that stuff scratch there, and tried to develop a top-tier leadership group and then a secondary group of leaders, because we had quite a few young guys the first two years here.
Speaker 1:But it's amazing, mate, If they haven't learned it, they haven't learned it. You know what I mean. Yeah, Like leadership, you learn it from the guys above you a lot of the time how to behave, how to win, how to handle big moments, how to approach training. And if they haven't had that which surprisingly, a lot of them hadn't you've kind of got to start there. You know You've got to start there. You know You've got to start there.
Speaker 2:Where do you start with that? How do you grow leadership in a team?
Speaker 1:Well, I think, for starters, you've got to identify who you think would have the potential to be the best leaders and your best leader is always your best players usually right, but there's also an unselfish approach to we over me. You've got to make sure that they're that person and that they'll be that person the entire time. And then you start to give them experiences with other leadership groups or other people, like we brought in Hoops and, you know, got him back from Japan when he was coming past and just let them talk to him about leadership and what, because they've got to learn from a whole different array of people. And then they'll experiment themselves and work out that it didn't work and it's quite a process. If they haven't had a heap of that coming through or growing up, you've really got to layer it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and do you set aside time for leadership activities to actually improve that in a working week?
Speaker 1:We have leadership meetings around messaging and what we want to drive and then having a real involvement in what's happening, why we're doing it, that mindset, skill set structure. They get a much bigger insight than anybody else in our team so they can then understand and help drive it through the team. But what we're trying to do is introduce them to different leaders all the time so they have different experiences. And that's challenging because some of those guys obviously they disappear off to the Wallaby camp. But I think now with the coaches that they've got there and Joe and Mike and Laurie and everybody else, jeff I think they'll get better and better and better and they'll start to see a lot of that stuff now because it's their first experience with wallabies for some of those guys and then they'll bring that back to us. So they're constantly evolving. Awesome, mate.
Speaker 2:Love that. Well, talking about evolution, mate, in terms of this game Sunday, I love the thought of you sitting in the changing room after this Lions game with the team and satisfied that you've done your very best. What does it look like for you on Sunday or straight after the game? Regardless of the result, what does success look like for you and your team post this game?
Speaker 1:Well, interestingly, like I said right at the start, we set a few foundation goals around. What do we want to do as a team? And I know it's cliche and I know you hear it all the time, but those NTRs, no talent required areas, effort areas for us need to be massive and that means the speed off the ground, kick, chase, kick, retreat, being alive both sides of the ball so that we can play the game we want to play getting into our shape, fast sitting first, all the things that you can do with very little talent but with an enormous amount of effort. So if we've done that, that'll take us a long way to feeling like we've done a good job in the sheds. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:And then there's a type of game we want to play. We do want to play a bit of a high pace, high skill game and if we do the foundations around breakdown and ball carry and clean outs, then we'll be able to do that. If we don't do those basics, then it's going to be a bit of a long night. Yeah, you know what I mean. No-transcript. If we can control the ruck speed and slow it down and get ourselves set defensively, come off the line. Hit them again, hit them again, hit them again. Then we will be in a much better position to be able to do what we want to do. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Isn't it fascinating that your first thing you say is what success looks like, as if our effort is top draw, like you're not talking about the X's and O's or the execution of any sort of plays. It's was our effort top draw. Did we try our absolute hardest in everything we did? And isn't that cool? I think that's cool. That that's your definition of success in such a game like this. Just give it a good crack.
Speaker 1:Well, you can feel proud of a team who does that. You know, when your team put everything into it and they just don't stop coming and they fight, then you feel you know there's a level of pride just in that culturally around who we are and what we believe in. And it's going to be a big challenge for some of the guys. Some of them you know the guys this weekend it'll be their first game in quite a while. They're stepping up into the 23 from not being in it and the you know the firmness will be on them. So you know, hopefully we can get them confident enough to have a real good go.
Speaker 2:Oh, I just love it that you're saying words like confidence and effort, all these sort of things which are, you know, deep inside someone rather than the thinking up here up in the mind. Yeah, love it. And mate, you have got a lot of young guys. Obviously, this will come out after You've got guys debuting for the team. Their first game is, for you know, against the british and irish lions. Like, how do you manage those guys in a team like it's? It's, it's always a management piece anyway on your debut young players. But what about the added component that it's probably the biggest game they're playing in their lives?
Speaker 1:well, I think the biggest thing is and and it was mentioned by one of the coaches this week, I think Craig Bellamy talks about play the game, not the occasion, and what that means is getting them really comfortable in the type of game we want to play so that when the occasion is big and the crowd is screaming and there's pressure on them, they hopefully can simplify the game just to execute the number of things we want them to do.
Speaker 1:Game just to execute the number of things we want them to do, and it might be just being able to kick to the corner, it might be, you know, inside the 40s, not overplaying, you know, and putting pressure or trapping them back in the corner. So I think for us it's about some of those guys trying to make it as simple as possible for them without them overthinking and overcomplicating and then overplaying, which is what happens for those inexperienced players. They try to do too much and then they get themselves in trouble and we'll be back on our heels. So, as simple as possible come Saturday for them, if we can.
Speaker 2:Isn't it funny that thinking too much is the issue. Eh, isn't it so true that thinking too much is probably in life too, mate? Too much thinking doesn't make a good living right.
Speaker 1:No, that's the thing, right. There's a funny one I remember. People always said to me, or other people said to me like you know, and the best way of saying this is, thinking slows you down, right, so like, what's your 1RM bench press?
Speaker 2:Probably about 300,. I reckon 300, exactly Similar.
Speaker 1:So if I put, you know, your 300 kgs on your bench and you lift it off and it goes down to your chest and I say 7 times 7 minus 3 plus 6. That's a great point. You're either going to answer the question and not push the weight, or you push the weight and not answer the question. So what will happen is you'll start thinking and you'll never push the weight off your chest, you're pinned. So what that tells you is that if I'm thinking a whole lot, I can't execute. You know it slows me.
Speaker 1:So what we need to try and do is take away the complicated equations so they can push their 1RM. You know, and you would have been there a thousand times where you've been put in a situation where you've got to push your 1RM You're not trying to think a whole lot, you're just trying to do, and that's the only way you get it done. So, and you can see when someone's thinking too much, mate, because it slows them down and they. The one thing you don't have at this level is time and space, and all of a sudden you know they end up in trouble.
Speaker 2:Do you have any great ways to reduce like because obviously you put a lot into these like technical and tactical stuff, but do you have any great ways to reduce that sort of thinking?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think one of the years ago I remember learning and you'll like this, ben, and I'll just say Flanker but someone said to me one time if you walk off the field, what are the four things that if you've done them really well, you know you've played well, irrelevant of all the stuff outside, of all the extra nodes. So at that time the open side flanker was pressure, tackle ball run those four words, Everything else didn't matter. Pressure everyone, tackle ball run those four words, everything else didn't matter. Pressure everyone, tackle everything that moves, be close to the ball or get on the ball and run like the wind, so irrelevant of all the other things that happened in that game. If that player did those four things, they knew they played well.
Speaker 1:So during the week we load all this stuff into players, but when it comes to Saturday, you want them to to be able to stand on the field and go pressure tackle ball run. That's all I'm going to do, right? So I think, if we can simplify their game down and everyone's slightly different but I'd suggest for you as a player, pressure tackle ball run would be right up your alley. Yeah, it'd be great, wouldn't it? Yeah, yeah. And if you know, at the end of that game you come off, you play well, right.
Speaker 1:So I suppose trying to laser focus some guys down to what does it look like when they play great, and what's the simple word that means you know? Because ball for you might mean I'm close to the ball, I'm on the ball, so you know. That's what your game is. And I think the key thing for us is we load them up with so much stuff during the week. I don't want them going in thinking about you know, it's scrum time. I turn the handle on my bind. I've got to make sure I get in front of the tight head. I've got to make sure my foot goes, because then we're thinking too much. So if we can just go press, tackle, ball run, that's a win.
Speaker 2:And that is a cool little concept. Every player just have their one, two, three, four little phrase. Do you encourage players to do that and do you hear what they say? So you know it as a coach.
Speaker 1:Yep, yep, yep, so we encourage it here. You know, I had a player this year who's one of our big leaders, who I could see was slower around the field and probably taking on too much as a leader and probably you know getting feedback that his game he wasn't off the ground fast enough for his game. You know getting feedback that it's game he wasn't off the ground fast enough which game, you know and I thought to myself I just think he's thinking too much and we did that little exercise together and then he had a blinder that weekend, which is not me, I think it's just more just decluttering, you know, and he said I said how do you feel after that? Because his three words, you know, he went with three words and he said yeah, no, it's great, it just made me laser focused because as soon as you're going wide on every other person's job, he was slower. So I like doing that a lot with everyone.
Speaker 1:Really, I did it once this week with another player in our group who I thought is going to take on a bit more leadership this week and therefore my fear would be that he's thinking of everyone else and I think as a leader, as a captain, as a coach, as a person, all those hard conversations, the big thinking ones front load the week and then post sort of Thursday. If they can just start to think, pressure, tackle, we'll run like happy days, you know.
Speaker 2:I love that you actually just reminded me of when you're talking about the upside flanker. I remember when I was really young and I went to a camp I think I was 20, and Rob Penny was one of the coaches and I had to lift in the line out and then there was a ruck out wide and I remember asking him mate, how am I supposed to lift in the line out and get to that ruck? And he just said I don't care, mate, you just get there. Yeah, just get there. And then that was all it was, and so it's super simple. So then I said there and he goes yeah, I don't care how, just get there. And it was just get there. That was the phrasing. So every time it was just in my head I've just got to get there.
Speaker 1:Just got to.
Speaker 2:And it was super simple and I just I'd imagine the reverse. If you sort of tried to explain, well, in this situation you might need to run this line and if you duck under here and if he makes, it could have been all these scenarios, but he just went, just get there and that's how simple it is right, yeah, and you're right.
Speaker 1:And sometimes someone's just going to tell you that. I remember hearing a great story, I think, about Joe Smith in Ireland. Someone mentioned it wasn't Joe I think I might have brought it up with him at some point but one of his biggest players. I think he might have said it in his book, but they dropped a pass and they blamed the person who passed the ball not being a good pass, and Joe just walked past him. And I think this is me. Yeah, I could be completely wrong, but he said great players catch those. Yeah, end of story. End of story. So get your hands up, catch early, none of that shit, just catch it. And so almost that simple, mate. Hey, you know that's a great message, it's a great message it's okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're right, guts it all down. I love it. Now, conor, I normally we've missed the first big question which I normally ask, and I'll ask you now, mate, because I love people's opinion is how do you personally define culture?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's an interesting one because I think you know, I suppose for me the biggest one is culture is something you live and you see. And what I mean by that is, as a head coach, you've got to kind of live whatever culture you're wanting to drive and then you've got to start to see that culture in your team. And I know that we can all sit there and we talk about values and different behaviours and what's important to that team, and I think everyone's got to go through that process with the team so they're engaged and they're involved in it. Otherwise you're just making it up. I can make up some great cultures but I don't know whether they buy in. So trying to get the buy-in about what it is, and then you have to live those from the top of the food chain.
Speaker 1:The biggest mistake is if a coach or your leaders, if you're not living them, there's no culture there and then ideally, create an environment where people can thrive and get better and I think the culture within that culture, when you want to live it and see it, you've got to have accountability and that's the hardest part for some people, especially the new generation of people coming through. You've got to be pretty hard-nosed at times around we want to be the best of the best around skill set. Well, that involves you doing that extra work. If we want to become students, the game, you've actually got to do a whole lot more work away from the field and away from the lights and away from us, um, and if you start seeing that happening then then you know people are buying into being successful. So I know it's a bit long-winded but, um, I can see guys living it here now, which is cool, living some key things, uh, and I can see other guys watching them, which will help us develop those guys into leaders later. So live it, breathe it.
Speaker 2:Ideally well, that's a testament to you too, mate, because I know, as we speak now, you're doing ridiculous hours. You're the first and first out. You're doing long days. I think you call them japanese length days, yeah, I do know that. Yeah, but, mate, that's, that's what you and you and spouse, you're a student of the game. Uh, you work hard, long hours, um, and and do you expect that because you're living that yourself, you sort of expect players to put in some good shifts as well and really become strong in the game as well.
Speaker 1:Interestingly, you want players to do less. Obviously, our days are massive, because you know what it's like. I expect my staff to be really well prepared and ready to go so that we don't waste time when we are in front of the players. I suppose it's all about that maths equation. What we're trying to do with those hours is simplify that maths equation so when we deliver it, it's one plus one, ideally, always. Aren't thinking so much. That's probably where your hours come in, trying to fix those things For players.
Speaker 1:I expect them to come in here and be on when they need to be on, which is when we go into the meetings, when we go across the white line onto the grass, and then they can have some fun external to that or outside of that. But then my expectation of them is that they come back in and they've watched training and they know what they're talking about and that what we're showing them in the team meeting is not the first time they've seen it. You know what I mean. And are we there yet? Not with everyone, I don't think. I think the majority of our best guys are starting to understand that they need to be students of the game and understand who they're playing and what they're trying to achieve. And I just had one this morning. You know, I really like this yesterday from training. Yeah, beautiful, perfect. That's the kind of person.
Speaker 1:Then there's a few others that I still think have a mentality of if it's important, you'll find me. You know what I mean? Yeah, interesting. Yeah, if it's important, chrono will find me. Well, there's 40 of you. So you know, my expectation is for us to continue to develop and evolve. The 40 players, or 36, or whoever we've got in here, do a lot of homework away from the game and come in with some answers or some understanding of. You know, I'm not sure this was good. They might not quite know. So they bring that to you and say Connor, what do you reckon of this running line? And then we can have a chat about it, whereas I still think there's an evolution for some of our guys.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess, mate and that's the expectation that you're creating is that's the build you want to be ultimately get to everybody. Being a student of the game. They're all in there watching the game. That's the culture you want for this group of guys.
Speaker 1:That's right. That's where we need to get to right. We're not there yet. When I first came in here, we'd be nowhere near the yet to right. We're not there yet. When I first came in here, we'd be nowhere near the. Computers weren't even here. Like there's no analyst room, there's no review area. So we've changed all of that and again, like I mentioned to you, you've then got to go. Okay, well, they don't know how to review. We're going to show them how to review, how to clip on sports code, how to like. There's quite a lot of work to do here just on teaching and that. But now, like this morning, there's five guys around a computer talking and they're game managers. It's just now getting the other guys, uh, to constantly drive that too, you know I love that.
Speaker 2:That's the culture, because all cultures are different, right, but the one you're wanting to create is almost a studious culture, like, yeah, what's it a training? Like uh, they're a subject of school, essentially, and they want to be the best at it. That's right. So that's the culture of what you're trying to create and that's how you lead from the top. I know you work bloody hard and you study hard and you're a student of the game yourself. That flows down and ultimately, we want everybody a student of the game in this environment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would love people to be coming to me with their clips and what they want to talk about, rather than me going to them. That's the ultimate, I suppose. Switch Now. You're always going to chase some guys because you're like, oh, I want to show them this one as a coach, but ideally if they've also done their homework and want to ask you some questions, that's better.
Speaker 2:I love it. And so when you did arrive at the force a couple of years ago, what was you know? Where did you start, mate? Where did we just start with the culture? Because, knowing Perth and the region, it's not a strong rugby hub, so a lot of people are coming in from all over the show and you've got to connect that group together. What was your sort of first big pillars you decided that you'd put in?
Speaker 1:Well, the big one for me is the type of shim and you want in the building. I didn't know a whole lot of the people here. So, um, interestingly, I was over in Japan and um found out that you know that we maybe didn't have a a number of people signed for for 2023, so we actually we only had a small number of signings. So, um, I got a bit of a shock. There was quite a number of players we needed to find between when we finished in japan and start super rugby, and you know as well as I do there's not that many people um out there that are not contracted. So we had to find quite a few non-contracted players to contract at the force and make a team. That was scary because I was. This is a big task I wasn't expecting. And then you've got to fill the jerseys with those people and then you've got to work out. You can get an idea. Maybe they're good, maybe they're not. How good are they? Are they we over me people? Are they driven? Are they going to be fit?
Speaker 1:And my first fitness test was a scare. Yeah, and I was with Frasci at the time. He was standing next to me and I looked at him and he looked at me and I went, mate, and he was like, yeah, I know, and so we kind of went. I've had a lot of hard conversations, a lot of change, a lot of driving it yourself and from the coaching group, which is, like you say, that's not the outcome we want and that's where the switch is coming now with the players we do have here. So I think we've got a really good core now of people who have bought into all those things we want to do. So it was a bit of a shock, mate, to be honest, when I first got here. And there's some great people here, don't get me wrong, there's some lovely people, but just mindset skill set structure.
Speaker 2:Well, just talking off air before you, you mentioned a quote from Wayne's World build it and they will come. That's where the original line, that's where I remember it from Build it and they will come. So you're building this culture at the Western Force and it's a cool place to build because it's, you know, traditionally it hasn't been a stronghold of rugby. They're always scrapping down the bottom of the table. And how's it gone? There's like definite improvement this year. Right, and one of the stats I want to just pull up is, since your arrival, there's from zero wallabies to nine, nine selected in the wallabies, which is absolutely phenomenal and a huge marker of success. But how is what you're building, creating people, going on to the next level?
Speaker 1:Yeah, look, I think initially, when you first got here, the word of mouth was a little bit like I listened to Carney who went back to Ireland on a podcast. He was talking about the Western Force not being very professional and I think that was maybe filtering out from a player group. So we had the first three things we targeted people, program and place. So get the right people, build a program that people want to come to, that they feel like they can get better at. And, like you mentioned before, around us, building Wallabies was a big one for us and I think we maybe had a Wallaby here who was injured at the time. But we've either tried to bring in guys and push them to be Wallabies or we've brought in guys who were Wallabies and tried to make them better and then, to be honest, the program gets sold from players.
Speaker 1:So you know, jimmy Williams, talking to somebody else is what brings them here. So we've got to try and recycle that word of mouth. And then the players' purses are awesome. Purses are a great place, like family love it. We just need to try and help develop the feeder and behind Super Rugby so it's stronger. And just remember they got kicked out into Rapid Rugby and developed. So I went into Rapid Rugby and they came back out again and it's kind of like starting again to a level right. Yeah, and we are a bit more remote than most people so it comes with some unique challenges, mate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it does, sure does. Well, mate, you just talking about the people program place. I really and you would appreciate, I remember Steve Hansen. I know you've worked with him too in Japan, but he had this amazing ability to create a really good narrative around that. And is that an important part of head coaching, around selling the story and so that you sell it to the players and through your actions and your words, and they pass it on to, you know, the families, and the families pass it on to communities and then all of a sudden this bigger thing comes and then is that how that people program place really generates some momentum with a good I think so.
Speaker 1:I think so. I think you've got to live it yourself to a level. And sometimes that's hard conversations, letting people go who might be liked but aren't quite there yet. But Steve's amazing around understanding what people need in your environment and he knows you well enough to target what's important to you. You know, like he was good with me and he realized my wife had more of a say at times so he cut me out of the comms and went and had wine with her. So you know, when we were talking about Japan. So I think people probably in place, I think you've got to live it and breathe it, bring in the right type of person that wants it and they want to be the best they've ever been and I know people say they want to be the best they've ever been. But it's about showing that and how much work you put in. And, like I said to you, like Jimmy Williams, who's our captain, he's a great asset of that came from New South Wales, has now solidified himself in the Wallabies. He's our captain. We made him captain early because I identified that I think he'd have those skill sets if we supported him well enough and loves it here and you know, I'd say he will settle here for quite a long time. He's very signed and then what that does is send messages to other players who are also going okay, this is where we want to be and this is what we want to do.
Speaker 1:Do we get it right all the time? No, we don't. Are we perfect? Far from it. And sometimes some things will let you down when you're trying to drive that high standards and expectations. Like you know, I remember last year I showed up at the field and it wasn't marked and I'm like this is not us, it's not high performance sport. It wasn't marked three or four times and it starts to annoy you. So you've got to take control of that and try to make sure that every time a player walks through the place, it delivers on high performance, and you know we're constantly working on that as an organisation. So you know we're constantly working on that as an organization. So you know.
Speaker 2:What are some of the ones you got wrong there, Croner?
Speaker 1:I'd say, early on, some of the things we battled with was from a facilities point of view. We were probably bursting at the seams. We don't have our own, we didn't have our own team room, so we shared it and we'd show up sometimes and it'd be taken. Other people want it, you know. So that's not a great, you know. And then we'd have the recovery pool break down a lot. The field would get watered on one half and dry on the other. So we'd be sending racehorses as fast as they can down the field and I'd be blowing the whistle trying to stop them before halfway. You know, Things like that were the teething problems, I'd say, of us not having our own facilities at that point. But all of that's, you know, changed in the works.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what about you personally, as a head coach experienced head coach in terms of misses you might have had that you went. Oh geez, I personally didn't nail that. I'll remedy that for the next time.
Speaker 1:Oh, every day, Every day, there's a new one. There's always something, mate, you go. I didn't hit that one, I didn't nail that one. You're always thinking of ways in which you could have done better. But I think sometimes the hardest ones are the hard conversations you have. You know how it is when you're dropping people or you're not picking them, we're not selecting them, we're not resigning them. They're the hard ones. Many jobs do that. Do you know what I mean? Like not many.
Speaker 1:So, and one of the big things I learned last year which I quite like have you heard of the conflict continuum? I've heard of it, but you'll have to explain. Yeah, so it's actually really interesting. So the conflict continuum basically works like this so there's a continuum of conflict, right. And at one end of it is artificial harmony. So when people just want to show up to work, they don't want to ever be challenged, they just want to clock in, clock out, be nice to everybody, everybody be nice to them. Don't make me have to have any hard conversations, right. And the other end of that is hell, where people are just into each other and hate each other and back even and negative, right. So high performance sport, in theory, sits right in the middle here somewhere, right, you can't have artificial harmony because you're never going to grow. So you're constantly kind of bouncing between hard conversations and maybe now and then you'll step over the mark and that will scar a little bit and then the person gets stronger and more resilient. You're constantly doing this to them so we scar, get a bit stronger. So you're constantly living in here. You don't want to go to hell because that kills people.
Speaker 1:But most businesses or most organizations, so to speak, and you'll know this, they live in artificial harmony. They don't want that. Even if I don't like you, I'm not going to tell you. I might tell your mate or they'll say stuff behind, but they're not going to front you right Now.
Speaker 1:In our environment, we have to constantly be challenging each other here in the middle. Now, if you're a person who lives in artificial harmony the whole time and I'm sitting here in the middle trying to challenge you, it probably feels to them like I'm at the hell level. You know, yeah, you know it's too hard, but we're constantly creating an environment where our boys, hopefully, can sort of live here. Now, as a head coach, as you know, you gotta do a lot of this because you're dropping guys. This is why this is what and the way you communicate, that sometimes they don't listen and and that some of them would say they want you to be harder, but, natural fact, they want you to sit here artificial harmony with them. So I think that's a really good one and I challenge the staff sometimes because I feel like at times I'm the one having a lot of those conversations and they some people I've worked with live in artificial harmony. They'll say, oh, crono, he's not good enough, and then they're going to need to be able to deliver that.
Speaker 1:So the conflict continuum is quite interesting, because there's got to be conflict in a high-performance sporting environment, but it's got to be positive, challenging conflict that helps them scar and grow. It can't be conflict that's either really soft and fake and it can't be so horrible that they don't want to grow or evolve in your environment. So I think that's a good one, mate. That's really good. How do that's a really good one? How do you know if you've gone too far? I think that's the challenge right.
Speaker 1:I think if it's gone too far, for me it's personal. You become personal. Do you know what I mean? I do. I think it's not constructive and it's not. You know I need you to be able to kick, have a better box kick and your pass needs to be faster. I can't pick you because without that, you know this isn't happening, whereas over here you know you're a dick, you know it's not constructive and, mate, you're an idiot. Like, get out of here and being disrespectful to them, that's hell, I'd say. You're always trying to maintain a level of that. They've. Still, you maintain their integrity and they're, I suppose, making sure you're not very disrespectful to them, you know and personal, but you also need to have the conversation, otherwise, you know, it just gets worse.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, it's almost like that analogy of like in the gym. Everyone knows if you lift, you rip your muscles, you recover, you rip, you recover. Like everyone knows that that's how you build muscle and get strength. But you also probably know, if you go too far and you go too hard, that you break your elbow, that's right. Then it does the opposite, that's right so you're not wrong.
Speaker 1:That's exactly what it is, and if you don't do it at all, you're never going to grow and evolve and part of the coaching thing to this is just having a crack at it singing.
Speaker 2:Oh, actually that was too far. I might have to remedy that, fix that right and and that's probably something like you probably have experienced that like, if you make a mistake or go too far, I think you go too far, you just go right. How do I deal with this? Now, this is a new problem. I'll deal with that like I've got to apologize or make sure it's right or check in that kind of thing, right?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, no, you're right. Look, I delivered that too hard. I feel like I got that wrong. You, you know, and that's okay, like I think you're 100% right. If you're effect on it and go, you know what, I wouldn't like it delivered that way. It was probably a little bit too far, you know. Then you can go and grab that person and even though they might say, no, it's fine, at least I think they probably would feel the same if you've, you know, and it is a balancing act, mate, because artificial harmony is where 90% of the community want to live, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's a special thing about high-performance sport, isn't it that you're living in that it's not for everybody, but the people that love it, like yourself. There's an edge there to it. It's exciting Like you're growing, it's like people that love the gym. It's the same feeling, isn't it? Yeah?
Speaker 1:that's right. You're evolving and growing and ultimately, I think the, the coaches here or the people here, um, I think purpose you talk about purpose. Their purpose is to have people make it who maybe wouldn't have made it without their input or their help and support and, and I think you know, those challenging conversations have helped. You know, like Jeremy Williams, it's helped him get to where he's got to. We believe he's resilient enough to handle the wallaby environment now. I love those.
Speaker 2:That's awesome, mate. Now, chrono, you're pretty well-travelled now, yeah, and I'd like to dive into your time in Japan, mate, because you came from you know Australia, grew up in a lot of time in Sydney with with the Waratahs, successful coaching there, and then you took up a gig three years at Toyota Verblitz. What was the? Why did you take it? You're, you're on track to go well here. What was the what here? What was the challenge in it for you? A lot of coaches that will be listening to this are always wondering if they should take the leap, and you've just gone and done it. I'd love to know the insight behind that.
Speaker 1:I wish it was that easy. It took a long time. So 2018, we'd made the semifinal, played the Lions and South Africa and got knocked out. I think in November or December I got a phone call from Steve Hansen's agent, lou Thompson, and he just said oh look, steve would like to call you about an opportunity in Japan. And I was kind of like, well, I'm not interested in Japan, you know, like that's not really on my radar and I'd been over and seen Kobe with Wayne Smith. I'd been over and seen Kobe with Wayne Smith, I'd watched him coach there for weeks, I'd been over there once that year, but I had zero interest in going to Japan. So then Steve called and you know he is extremely convincing, he's a hard man to say no to.
Speaker 1:But I did for kind of four or five months where the Waratahs was my major focus and the players there were my major focus and the organisation. I was really driven there and I loved it. And Steve the one that got me probably was Steve said look, I'm going to be at Sydney Airport, come out, we'll catch up. So I came out, we sat down and Steve you know how Steve does he got a bit of paper and he went right. This is you. This is why you're a head coach. This is why you need to come to Japan. This is what I think your future entailed. This is where you need to go to. This is and boom. And you know how he does. And at the time, the Waratahs were awesome, but they were just like we just want you to stay. But this is happening, with you know Gibbo's going to take over this and do that. You can take over more. They were really good about it. But then I sort of sat down and I went okay, steve is the best in the world right now and I'm not, so I need to learn, and what a great opportunity it is to learn from him.
Speaker 1:Secondly, my kids were nine, six and three and I thought I'm flying everywhere with Subarabia, who is South Africa, obviously still in it, and maybe, maybe I'll get more time with them in Japan and be a better father, spend a bit more time seeing them on a day-to-day, and they're young enough to experience an external culture without it influencing their high school, you know, because we probably can't do it during the high school years. So they were the big whys and even then I said no, couldn't do it. And then Steve rang up a few times and he asked some pretty blunt questions, you know, steve, and in the end I went. You know what. He's told me these things and he's right. He'd done his homework. This is my strengths. So he'd done his homework, whereas, apart from Gibbo Gibbo knew how I coach he was really good but no one else had really watched me coach a whole lot, apart from the players. So that's where I went. Okay, I'm just going to bite the bullet here and do something that's different to the normal pathway of doing Japan late. I want to do it now and hopefully make myself a more resilient coach so that when the tough times come which is like now at the force, it's tough, mate I'm more resilient and can handle the big moments and be better at coaching for the players and be better at understanding what to do culturally, like you say.
Speaker 1:So I learned a heap over there and sadly, as you would know, the idea of spending more time with family didn't happen because COVID hit and they went back to New Zealand to see grandparents and then they got pinned there for nine months and I was in Japan by myself for nine months and Steve was in Wanaka because he was also locked down in New Zealand. So I ended up being over there doing I was always going to do all the coaching Steve was just director of rugby. So I ended up doing director of rugby and the coaching for the first year because poor Steve was stuck there and he was like. He said to me later on. He said well, you've been doing two jobs, son. I said yeah, I know, and he go, you know it's both our fault. He said I said yeah, well, yeah, covid mate, who would have thought?
Speaker 2:And what was your pickups? What did you take away from the experience? Maybe one from a real positive aspect, or one from, maybe, something negative which you've grown from?
Speaker 1:A positive aspect. I got to coach the best in the world, Like I had Peter Stifter-Toynt, like you know, I ended up having Michael Hooper come over. His agent called and wanted to come, so Hoops was keen to come and join me, which was cool. And I had Kieran Reid, you know, and Valeria Rue. So very different people but all similar and that they're all the best and I learned a lot from them. Patrick Tuapalotu came over too. So some awesome best in the world players who give you great feedback and they enjoy being coached by you or you enjoy coaching them. And and Rito is one of the best I've ever had because I could yell out to- how good, how good.
Speaker 2:that makes it easy, right? Hey Reno, fix the back door in the mall and it's done. That's why you yell out on game day. You just yell out win the game.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, win the game, reno. Yeah, that was really, you know, quite cool, you know, whereas I'm used to going over there and going, okay, right, you've got to make sure you double shut it back, you know, whereas he'd just fix it for me and so that was awesome. I really loved that. But at the same time, the challenge was you've got the best in the world and you've got guys who are right at the beginner level, so being able to program training sessions so that these guys are getting better and these guys are getting better Like so making sure that no one in that group is feeling like it's a waste of time.
Speaker 2:How do you do that, mate? How do you get that balance? Because every team has their stars and every team has their beginners. Essentially, how did you find that balance?
Speaker 1:I would challenge the stars more around being able to help on field and be drivers of those areas. I would also put more pressure on them to take away time and space. So there's this thing called speed, accuracy, trade-off right the faster you do things, the less accurate you are. So I'd be massive on taking away time and space from my best athletes, so they have to execute under pressure, and then I would save a little bit of time and space so the guys in power execute as accurately.
Speaker 2:Would you put in the same drill? Would you be able to do that? Yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you just take away, put the defender a lot closer. Billy Drew can catch and pass within 30 centimeters, you know, or a muscle toe. I'm working on him, so I think you know you can do that in different ways. Yeah, so you're always trying to challenge them.
Speaker 2:I love it, mate them. I love it, mate, I love it. I actually uh one thing I remember, uh, when we caught up uh ages ago and you mentioned wayne smith just before in kobe, and I think it was a lovely story that you jumped on a plane post-season just to learn from the best. He gave you a week of his time and one of the questions you asked him was how do you keep longevity in the game, am I right? That's what I remember you talking about. You flew over there to do a week of professional development, which in itself mirrors what you talked about earlier about you've got to lead what you want your cultures to be and you are the ultimate student and you physically got on a plane straight after season, flew to Japan, stayed there a week at a hotel at your own cost to learn from the best, and you asked him that question and I just thought it was what a marvelous question to ask someone. So have you got any insight from that conversation? Because I thought it was a brilliant one.
Speaker 1:Well, I was looking for the PD because I think you've always got to and it got mentioned that he was there. So I messaged him. I didn't know Smitty at all and he's got to and it got mentioned that he was there. So I messaged him. I didn't know Smitty at all and he said Crono, I'm here for another 13 days, if you can come good as gold. So I was like right.
Speaker 1:So I went home that night and I said to my now wife or then wife I think it was same person I said I'm going to Japan and Super Rugby just finished. And she's Super Rugby just finished. She's like what. And I said, oh, wayne Smith's there. She doesn't know rugby that well, but she was like okay, I understand. And I said it's going to cost us about six grand. She's like what. And I said it's worth it, like it's priceless. She's like so anyway, got over there and, yeah, my big one for him was how do you create longevity? How have you done it for so long? Because you know as well as I do it takes your soul. I've got 40 kids here and the danger for me is that I miss my own kids and don't teach them how to tackle or how to run or I'm teaching 40 others.
Speaker 1:I hate losing and I'm in an organisation at the moment that historically that's kind of been, you know. They haven't been able to get out of it. So the big challenge for me is how do I bust that, how do I break that door, you know? And so for him, he said to me there will be times they talk about work-life balance. There is none. He said. There'll be times in your year where you have no balance. That's just, unfortunately, that's just what it is. He said, but you've got to try, when you do, get it to be present, when you get it. I think that was the biggest message from him and you can see it in him. Right, I was only there for a short time and I don't know Smitty that well, but I know Mike and those guys do, and Mike Cron's very the same, in that you can see that just all in all the time. But when you do get it, try to be present. So if you accept the fact that your life is going to be full noise all the time, then you accept it and I kind of went okay, well, if that's what it is, that's what it is. I don't need to shy away from the fact that I, because you know, and then try to have the brakes when you need it.
Speaker 1:But Steve was. You know how it is with Steve, like in Toyota. He was like right, let's go, we're gone, get up Like at three o'clock or something in the afternoon. Let's go, we're gone, get up Like at three o'clock or something in the afternoon. I'd be like I've still got three hours to go see you get in the car. All right, he's like when was the last time your wife saw you? Who's she seeing? Because you're not home and he's good at trying to bang you that way. So I don't think I've found the solution around that, but I think that if you're used to functioning at a high intensity all the time, don't shy away from it. It's okay.
Speaker 2:I think that's lovely, crono, because I think a lot of coaches at any level get into that mindset too, where they enjoy it so much, they're so into it and dedicated that they pour everything into it. And I guess, as long as at some point you're getting the flip side it doesn't have to be in a day, it can be at the end of season and you're getting that flip reverse that's probably pretty good too, right? Yeah, you've got to find it Bloody awesome, mate. Love that. I love that about you, mate. It is absolute testament, mate, to your character that you pursue something so passionately to just jump on a plane the day after you finish the super season and get stuck in a Samoa. I love it. Yeah, it was good.
Speaker 1:It was good for me, though. I learned so much. You know you talk about doing degrees and doing masters and all this other stuff people do, but I got to do a masters in that one week, really just watching him work and other guys up there and see the jack. You know it was cool. So, yeah, worth it, Love it.
Speaker 2:Hey mate, I've got one more question for you and I enjoy this one because it really pops up with some really interesting answers and that is do you have a belief that you believe in about rugby or culture or any aspect that you reckon some of your peers and contemporaries would probably disagree with in this space?
Speaker 1:There is one that I, kind of you, always battle with, and it probably goes back to some of those conversations we had earlier. But one of the hardest things is to try and remove some of the emotion from decisions, and what I mean by that is and people don't know this, because you only do it when you're a coach, I suppose but you can really like somebody as a person. You can look at them and go they've just had a baby, they've just bought a house, their life is, you know, they need to be in your team for their own personal life to keep functioning. And you're in a position where you have to tell them the contract's come to an end and we're not resigning you. That's really tough and you've got to walk away from it sometimes and put yourself in a bit of a dark room and go. What is best for the team is that we progress forward. Um, and what is? Uh, I have to deliver that message without.
Speaker 1:The mistake I would make is I go oh shit, he's such a good person and he's just had a baby, we'll just sign them for one more year.
Speaker 1:Then what happens is you sign that person for one more year.
Speaker 1:You don't pick them, so they get pissed off and you do get a bit annoyed because they're taking a contract that you need somebody else to be in and you've made a mistake for the team, right, but that's that. It was an easy decision at the time because you liked the person, and so sometimes the thing I think that some people might disagree with is you have to have those, you have to try and disengage from the fact that emotionally you want them to be secure and comfortable, but for the team it's not the right decision and it's funny because you know players will never know this. But you actually really like some people that you've gone. Sorry, mate, I can't contribute. They will go home and I've probably got about a few voodoo dolls with my face on it. But it's not that I don't like them, they're actually good people. It's just that for the team and their skill set and the time of where we are as a squad, they're not the right person to drive us forward does that make sense?
Speaker 2:it does, mate. I think it's a cool. It is kind of a like a contrarian belief, potentially to just general living. Isn't you've got to disengage? Disengagement's okay, yeah, because of the bigger impact is you're opening up space for those coming through like the, like the new plants that grow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's the hardest part, mate. Steve taught me one thing that I really enjoyed. One of the things he taught me was you're better to go a year early than a year late. And I said what do you mean? And he said you're better to let a player go a year early than a year late. Because he said if you let them go a year early, they can go and pick up a contract somewhere else. They might play another year or two. They're happy.
Speaker 1:If you leave them a year late, you're not picking them, you don't like them, they don't like you. It starts to get negative. So he said if you think you're borderline and you think you're erring on the side of is it a year too late, you're better to cut them. And that was a really big insight for me, and I've actually had that conversation, that exact conversation, with three or four players. Hey, mate, this is one thing I learned from Steve and my concern is that you're going to go a year late and I think we should let you go now, because then you can pick up another contract. And what do you think? And I think we should let you go now, because then you can pick up another contract.
Speaker 2:What do you think? I've had that face-to-face.
Speaker 1:How was that received? Pretty honestly, they're like okay, because you're saying, I'm saying if we go a year later, I'm not going to end up picking you, you're going to hate me, you're not going to enjoy it and I'm going to get annoyed because I'm not using you. Go, you're going to hate me, you're not going to enjoy it and I'm going to get annoyed because I'm not using you. Go home and talk to your wife. How do you feel about this? This is life. This is life, mate. I just need you to understand it, you know.
Speaker 1:And one of them convinced me to go again, and okay, so we did. And then another one's gone and got a contract in Japan. Funnily, got a contract in Japan, far enough, and I think he's still playing. That was two years ago. So you kind of cool. You know it's hard. It's hard because it's not comfortable, because they've got to go home to their partner and say I no longer have a contract. But I hope that in five years' time when I run into that player, he goes hey, I really enjoyed my time in Japan, it was a good move and I've got to keep playing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, hand, it was a good move and I've got to keep playing. Yeah, and then the relationship's good with it. Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:Crono mate. I want to just say thank you, mate. In the week leading up to probably the biggest game of the year and arguably 12 years for the Western Force, you're taking the time out of such an exciting time against the British and Irish Lions to talk culture on the Coaching Culture podcast and your insight and your knowledge, mate, is outstanding and I just think, mate, the way you run your culture is very you, mate, and you're the top of the food chain and you are everything you want your players to be and I think that's absolutely gold, mate. So what a privilege and a pleasure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've still got a long way to go, man, I'll tell you appreciate your time.
Speaker 2:Great to see you again here's my final three takeaways from a conversation with simon crom. Number one mindset, skill set, structure. Those are a lovely three word combination to just have in your mind as a coach about the order of proceedings when you're designing your training sessions. You start with mindset, you add in the skill set and you finish with structure. This is a nice simple framework to keep you on track on the order of what's important love that.
Speaker 2:Number two thinking slows you down. Crono talked about the analogy of the weightlifter pulling down on a bench press and being asked to do complicated mass at the bottom of his press, and this is the same for everyone in our team. As coaches, we know a lot of the detail, but our job is to simplify it down so it's easily digestible and doesn't distract from the actual thing we're there to do In this case, play the game of rugby and enjoy it and enjoy its simplicity. Thinking is always the thing we love to do, but as coaches, our job is also to be able to remove erroneous thinking and the thinking that slows you down.
Speaker 2:Number three the conflict continuum. Krono talks about that balance between, at one end, an artificial harmony where it's all nicely, nicely, and at the other end, the opposing end, the hell situation. And we in professional sports, as leaders of people that are trying to be their best, we need to sit somewhere in the middle where we're able to stress, recover, stress, recover. The same way we scar heal, scar, heal in the gym in order to get improvement, to get growth, to get better. Chrono also talks about the importance of having those hard conversations, because that's the thing that actually grows, your players and your team more resilient. Until next time, stay well.