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Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Mike Cron: Rugby's Wisest Coach Shares His Lifetime of Wisdom
When a coach with 42 years of experience and three World Cup titles speaks, the rugby world listens. Mike Cron, forwards coach for the Wallabies and veteran of 217 All Blacks matches, opens up about the coaching philosophy that's made him a legend in the sport.
What makes a great rugby culture? According to Cron, it starts with having "an aim or goal that's higher than an individual" and creating a safe learning environment where players can take risks without fear. The traditional dynamic of coach-as-dictator is outdated – today's effective coaching involves a "very thin line" between coach and player, sometimes even flipping to player-led sessions.
Cron's approach to feedback is revolutionary yet simple: ask questions rather than make statements. "If 10 is your best game and 1 is your worst, where would you rate yesterday's performance?" When players self-assess, they become invested in their improvement. This honest conversation style creates psychological safety where athletes willingly acknowledge mistakes rather than hide them.
The master coach shares practical wisdom about using visual aids, storytelling, and technology to enhance learning. From showing players sculptures that represent proper mall formation to filming technique in real-time, these approaches make abstract concepts concrete. His time management philosophy is equally insightful – prioritize key learning objectives over rigid schedules, because "you can coach it, not just train it."
Perhaps Cron's most powerful insight comes from his favorite Benjamin Franklin quote: "Tell me and I forget, teach me and I may remember, involve me and I learn." By involving players in their development journey rather than dictating it, coaches create deeper learning and lasting improvement.
Ready to transform your coaching approach? Listen now to hear wisdom from rugby's professor of coaching that will change how you think about player development, team culture, and the beautiful game itself.
I've never had an issue with a player. I can get on what I think. I can coach any player. Rugby's an honest man's game. You've got to be honest. So if you cock up, you've got to tell me. We used to deal with brutal honesty and we deal with inconvenient facts and we deal with that front on. Don't put things under the carpet. You know, if you're not making errors at training, you're not trying hard enough, because there are some fair-wounded sailors out there as coaches that only pat their boys and say what a great job they've done with a win. I was driving home and I rang my mate and I said this was two years ago. I said I reckon I've just done the best session of my life.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I am Ben Herring and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Mike Cron. Mike is the absolute epitome of a coach's coach. At 69 years old, he has a track record that is second to none 42 years on the grass, including 217 games as a coach for the All Blacks, three World Cup titles with various teams, a World Rugby rep, a referees, associate coach and currently forwards coach of the Wallabies. Mike is an absolute professor of coaching. In fact, many would argue there's none better. He joins us today and shares everything he's got. He is the wisest coach on the planet, in my opinion. Here he is. So, crono, it's what a pleasure to have you here on the show, and I'll start as I always start, with the question that is, how do you define culture?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a tough one, but if you haven't got it, it's hard to build a proper high-performance team. I've learned that much. Oh geez, you've got to start there and that's your building block. Culture is, I think one is having an aim or a goal that's higher than an individual, whether it be a player or a coach. It's something far greater than us. Culture is having a safe environment, safe learning environment, not just physical safety but psychological safety. I think learning is motivation and motivation is enjoyment.
Speaker 1:I think that has a huge part to develop a good culture, because you turn up every day and we're all trying to get better than what we were yesterday. But what does that look like? And if you haven't got a good culture, if you haven't got a drive for excellence, if you haven't got a drive to minimize mediocrity, that will level you out, you'll become quite flat, you'll flatline. So I think for me, really driving the fact that you're trying to help the athlete every day to be the best he or she can be and actually meaning it and finding ways to help them. You know, if an athlete is maybe poor at their footwork, then going and seeking out a so-called expert that is good with footwork and come up with different activities that you can pass on to your athlete to make them better, and just little things like that. They appreciate that extra wee bit that you went for them.
Speaker 1:I think also in my playing day there was a big gap between coach and player. You know, the coach is way up here and the player down here and you stay down there. Yeah, I think in the modern era there's a very thin line and at times it might even jump the other way. For me, I get some of my leaders to run drills and activities. So the boys are hearing them instead of me because they're my leader. I want them to lead, I want them to have power.
Speaker 2:Have you had to flip that Connor, like that dynamic where you said when you started it was that different sort of leadership there, where now it's sometimes players lead more? Have you had to flip your own coaching style there?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think. When I started as a coach in 1983, I ran everything. I was a head coach of a Ford Packard private boys school in Christchurch and I ran everything. I was a head coach of a forward pack at a private boys' school in Christchurch and I ran everything I did in those days because that's how I was coached all my life. I started at four and every coach was very similar, but over the years I've certainly learned that the gap has to be very, very thin, and sometimes the other way around, and you get your best bang for your buck then, because we're all in this together and we're all heading in one direction and we're all trying to aim for something that's bigger than us.
Speaker 1:So you need them on board and as a coach, you need to have big ears. By that I mean you actually need to listen and be understand. Body language. You know, understand. They might just say one or two words at training that are gold, but if you're not listening you won't hear it, because quite often the player will know the answer to problems or issues or whatever, and if you don't give them the avenue or the vehicle to express themselves, then you've got all this knowledge being suppressed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and is that a difficult thing for a lot of coaches to do? Have you seen coaches struggle with that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, they've given up. They think they have to know the answers, they think they have to run everything and they think, you know, they have to be seen to be the boss. And okay, I understand that. But you can still be the boss in a different type of way and I think over the years I'm very much. You know, I'm one of the players really. I just make some important decisions that need to be made at certain times. But you know, I think probably one of my strengths now would be that I've never had an issue with a player.
Speaker 1:I can get on what I think I can coach any player, yeah, age, race, ability, and I think how that comes about is from coaching probably 20 years of amateur rugby. I look back and I was very fortunate to have done a very long apprenticeship for professional rugby. I feel very sorry for some players now who finish their professional career playing and within a very short period of time are coaching professionally in the game without a real background of an apprenticeship for coaching. I think it's not fair on them and I think it's not fair on the players For that coach to survive and to get to where he should get to or hopefully get to. There's a bit more good luck than good management and I think to get the best bang for your buck as a young coach, I'd really recommend that you go down and do some first 15s or some Colts teams, or go and help your senior B team and cut your cloth, you know.
Speaker 2:What do you learn in those grades you reckon Connor.
Speaker 1:Well, you learn that they have got other issues to do, like they're an 18, 19-year-old. They go to university. They've left school. They've found booze. They've found women. They've found a university. They've left school. They've found booze. They've found women. They've found going away on holidays. They've found all these other things that are out there 101 reasons why not to go to your training on a Tuesday and a Thursday night. So for them to come to your trainings on a Tuesday and Thursday night, it has to be appealing. You know they won't come and for me, I had, as I said, roughly just under 20 years of doing this at different age groups and I was very fortunate that they did want to come. And then they brought their mates. And when you start off a season with Jesus, have we got enough players? You know, halfway through the year we got too many. So that's a good sign because they want to come. So they've got 101 reasons to ring out and say they can't make it.
Speaker 2:And a lot of those reasons that they do come. Is not just the rugby side of things, is it? There's the cultural piece of what they're turning up to?
Speaker 1:right it is. They want to come and see their mates again. They want to come and see their mates again. They want to come and learn, have a bit of fun. Fun is not just games, fun is also Jesus.
Speaker 1:I was better at doing this drill tonight than I was last week, you know and it's not a bad thing to ask a lad geez, you're good at that passing drill. Tonight I thought I had improved chronic Out of 10,. What do you reckon you were? Oh shit, if 10's the best passer in our team, how are you tonight? He said I thought I was an eight. I reckon you're an eight. What do you reckon you were last week when we did that drill? Oh shit, I was a four. Wonderful improvement. What did you do different? Well, I just listened to punch at the target thumbs towards the ground. I cost for it on that tonight. And bingo, I said well, that's bloody great mate.
Speaker 1:So he gets a bit of pat on the back for himself. You know he knows he's done well, he's tried something, it's worked. He's given himself a rating. He can walk away, you know, proud that he's actually improved on something. Now it doesn't matter if he's your worst player on your team at all. It doesn't matter. He has no relevance. He is one of your players and your job is to make him better than what he has been. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Do you have a bit of a philosophy around that, conor, because I've seen, I know the way you coach and I love it. Do you ask a lot of questions like that, which are really encouraging, questions that draw good stuff and positive stuff rather than the negative side of stuff?
Speaker 1:I do, but I'd never realized that I've always done it. I didn't realize that I've always asked questions and stared them and make a collaboration of it. I've always done that. Some coaches battle and they keep asking bloody questions and there's an eternity of silence and the boys are looking at the coach. The coach is looking at the boys. He hasn't quite asked it in the correct manner or at the right time. He's just doing it because he's been to some coaching clinic and they've told him this is the way you do it.
Speaker 1:You've got no bloody idea what he's doing, or she? And you know, to me I don't even think about it. It's just a natural thing that you're just questioning what do they feel? You know, what do you feel there? You know, what do you reckon in your feet when you did that clean out? How much power do you reckon you had going through both feet? It was a set of bathroom skulls and they were 50-50. What do you reckon they were? And quite often I say I got no bloody idea, not a problem, do it again. So he does the clean out drill again. Come back, what were you? Well, I think I was 60-40. Right foot 60, left foot 40. What would you like to be 50-50. Why you explode great, go and do it again. He comes back. What were you at that time? 50-50. Hallelujah, there you go, you're fixed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love it, Chrono Mate. I even love just listening to you, mate, because I always enjoy our chats, because the way you tell stuff with your storytelling and those imagery, it just makes it really clear and obvious, doesn't it? Well, not clear and obvious, but gives really a picture in people's heads about what you're after, what you're talking about with the bathroom scales there. Is that something you do?
Speaker 1:Yeah, bathroom scales. You've got to come up with analogies. You've got to come up with you can see pictures, you know, and then they'll see. And then when you have that lad the following week and say he's scrummaging or mauling, you can go to him and say what were you in your feet? And he'll know what you're asking and you'll go oh Jesus, I was 70-30. Oh, that's great awareness that you knew that let's do it again and let's try and be 50-50. So I just think you've got to come up with different buttons to coach. In the old days, listen to me, I'm going to tell you. Now that's one button, that's fine, and then there's other buttons. Now you know analogies, pictures, storytelling. Have a look at that on your iPhone or your iPad. Peer coaching what did Johnny say in that? Tackle, johnny, what did you feel from Billy, you know? And chat, chat, chat. So we now have different buttons that you push as a coach. We're not just a one-trick pony anymore.
Speaker 2:Yes, how would you encourage coaches to go about finding those buttons, particularly if you're a one-dimensional button coach?
Speaker 1:I think, just be brave enough that what's the worst thing can happen. You know they look at you like you're a dickhead.
Speaker 2:That's what happens anyway, Crono.
Speaker 1:One thing is they love honesty. Players love honesty. They love if a coach puts his hand up and says look, I just tried something different tonight. I think it fell flat, didn't it, and I'll go. You may feel that and they might turn around. No, coach, we loved you having a crack at that. You know, and you work away. Oh well, I'll try again. I'll try something next week, you know, and I just think if you're honest, you know, and you put yourself out there. You know, I've gone.
Speaker 1:I've been lucky enough to go many, many places around the world to try and find different ways to help my athletes get better using their body. So I'll say, boys or girls, I've found this in sumo wrestling, I've found this in bloody MMA or whatever. I want to show you. I've converted this for rugby. See what you think? Have a play, so have a wee play with it.
Speaker 1:Then we come in and say, right, like anything I've ever brought back to you, do we keep it or do we delete it? And then they have a discussion no, no, we'll keep it. Right, she's in, we have a discussion. It's their decision Do we keep it or do we delete it? Now, I've never had one that says delete yet because you've done a fair bit of homework and background before you've put it out to them. You put it on display. So you know it's a good thing, you know it's going to work. But I wouldn't just say right now we're going to do this because this is what I've found. I'd just take the extra couple of minutes you know and explain. This is where I found it. This is what I've converted it to for rugby. Let's have a play. Come back, have a yarn. Do we keep it? Do we delete?
Speaker 2:it. I love it, mate. It actually brings me to one of your quotes that I know you like. It's from Benjamin Franklin Tell me, I forget. Teach me and I may remember. Involve me and I'll learn.
Speaker 1:Correct and, as all of us coaches, we get hundreds of bloody quotes which are great, all great. That's the only one I now show. I used to show a lot of quotes when I presented to coaches around the place and that's the only one I show now, because really that's me in essence. That's how I coach. I'm not saying I'm right. I never say I'm right. I'm just saying that's what I've learned for me, how I coach, and for me. That works for me. It may not work for other people, but I can guarantee you your athlete will respond to that in a very positive manner.
Speaker 2:I love it. Well, I'll give you one more quote, crono, this is from you actually, so I'm allowed to quote it because it's yours. You said in reference to what you said earlier about learning is motivation and motivation is enjoyment. You said at the Youth Coaches Conference we were at, our job is to keep finding ways to learn how to pass on our knowledge to our athletes, to tell our stories better so they understand and they get deeper learning.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, deeper learning. So at that conference that you're at, that I spoke at, I started by saying put yourself back to when your children were young and you're trying to get them to bed, so you've got to read them a story. And when I was doing that with my young children many, many, many years ago, the children's book was words with a bit of drawing on it. Yeah, maybe, if you're lucky, a wee bit of colour, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, not too long, connor, because if it's too long a story you're there all night and then you don't afford the story time. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But you look at storybooks now when you're doing the same thing to children today, You're trying to tell a story, You're telling the same story, but you turn over the page and hello, you push a button and it makes a noise. The next page you push a button and it makes a noise. The next page you pull a flap and out jumps a bloody elephant. You turn the next page. So these are just different ways of telling the story to your child in bed. One is to entertain them, but the other is it's a story and different ways of telling the story. So if you look at yourself and put yourself as a storyteller, now as a coach, so if you look at yourself and put yourself as a storyteller, now as a coach, how am I going to tell my story about a line out or a mall or defense or whatever? How can I teach the story to my athletes by using different ways and means except the old storybook with a wee bit of words and a wee bit of color? You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:I do, I like it, I like it, I like it a lot. And do you think, whilst you're talking about parenting there, do you reckon there's a bit of crossover between parenting and coaching in your experience? Did you learn a lot through your parenting journey?
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I was useless. That's the first thing. Funny, hopeless. I had no idea about boundaries for children. They'll work it out. I wasn't. They'll spread.
Speaker 2:But take the good bits of me and fill the rest in yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but I remember when I was a boy, from three years of age, he was in the back of my car. I was going around coaching. Every night He'd be in the back. You know done it for years, and now he's 44 and he's a very. You know, been in professional coaching for a vast number of years, been to a couple of World Cups three or four World Cups Going good, you know, and from, I think, though you know from sitting in the back of the car going to dozens or hundreds of bloody coaching sessions I did over the years, he picked up the lingo, the language, and on the way back we have a yarn about what he saw. It's funny how he was probably doing an apprenticeship and didn't even know it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right, he's the best mentor you could get, because you did say something else and another quote of yours but you said to for your players. You never asked them to do anything. You wouldn't ask your son or daughter to do themselves, particularly physically, and I thought that was a really lovely phrase, just to you know. Put it in perspective what coaching is all about? Right, like it's that level of care.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I went to a World Cup 2003 with Wales with Steve Hansen, and we all got given a. Every team got given a scrum machine. I turned up and it was. You couldn't move the pads. You know, if you had a big prop, you want to open the pad a bit more, you know, so you can hit square. So they were fixed pads, pads, and I said to Steve Hansen I refuse to put them in there, it's dangerous. Oh, I said no, I couldn't do it. So he got an engineer down and we made up a new whole front of a line.
Speaker 1:So it was way back in 2003. And then we went in 2004. We went to Savick with the All Blacks and again they supplied a scrum machine over there. I said no, I'm not putting them on the All Blacks on there, it's too dangerous. Da, da, da, da da. So I ended up doing live just 3v3 and I ended up scrummaging against Carl Heyman and so it was that and he was very kind and caring with me, but it was that from that moment on, where the manager goes, oh well, we better have one over here full time in a shed. So it's because it was safety. So again I go back. I wouldn't put my son in there, so I'm not going to put Kel Hayman or whoever it might be in there. So it's a pretty simple philosophy isn't it?
Speaker 2:It's a really good one. I think.
Speaker 1:Sometimes it's forgotten though, don't you think? Well, our number one priority really is safety, you know, making sure that everything is safe, and I'll tell you about. One time in Argentina, we took over a brand new scrum machine. We set it up that night. Tony Woodcock and I, down at the training field, put little nuts on, spanned it all up, came back the next morning and we had a little scrummaging session. I said, well, front row, bind up and just have a little hit in the machine. Hit it, and the whole bloody machine collapsed on the ground. Someone had come back during the night and undone all the nuts and just had it sitting there. So I learned a very valuable lesson from that day Never, ever, hop on a machine. It's like if you go to work on a big, big machinery, you know, check your machinery before you bloody start. So I learned a very valuable lesson that day in 2004, and luckily no one got hurt.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, bloody awesome. Hey, now, mate, you've talking about those all blacks. You've actually been, yeah, 217 games with the all blackss and three World Cup wins with various teams. Mate, in terms of what you're seeing in the best cultures, strong cultures that are consistent across teams, would there be things in there which you think are your gold or your big rocks around the cultural piece?
Speaker 1:Yeah, again, I go back to a goal bigger than us, the All Blacks is far bigger than any individual. I think it doesn't matter who gets the credit, so long as the job gets done, I think that's a big one. Yeah, we used to deal. We deal with brutal honesty and we deal with inconvenient facts and we deal with that front on. Don't put things under the carpet. That's not good for culture. If we say something as a management, we will do it. If we say something, that's our word, it will be done. Whichever way, we will bat for you.
Speaker 1:I think the other thing I learned from Steve Hansen. He told me many, many years ago, you know, to the players he said at 7.30, when you go out on the paddock at night, we love you. And when you come back in at nine o'clock, we still love you. He still says that. And I think that's a very valuable thing for players to know, because there are some fair winded sailors out there as coaches that only pat their boys and say what a great job they've done with a win. Now your athlete has gone out there and given his guts or her guts to the best of their ability, and sometimes it's enough and sometimes it's not enough to get a win. Sometimes it's enough and sometimes it's not enough to get a win.
Speaker 2:no-transcript what's some examples of coaches not or doing that negative example a negative example.
Speaker 1:We will. You don't talk to the boys in the shed, you keep yourself separate. You know, uh, your body language is. I mean, the boys are. They're annoyed too because you know, yeah, uh, they don't need you walking around with a big bloody lip tripping over your lip in the shed all day For me. I remember with the Wallabies last year when I started with Joe Smith, you know, we had three wins and then we got a hammering against Savicka. And I walk in the shed, aspen, and I'll sit down and make sure the boys are getting their squeezes and making sure their body's okay, getting the water into them, you know, and just relax, just treat them the way you would have if they'd want. And it wasn't until the next day.
Speaker 1:One of the older members had been in the Wallabies for a long time said I was watching you and Joe Smith very closely last night, when you come in the shed, I said what were you looking at? They said how you acted. I said, oh yeah, what did you see? They said, well, you were the same as when we won. I said, well, why wouldn't we be? And he said, well, not many coaches are I go. Oh well, I'll take your word for that. But I said, you deserve that respect.
Speaker 2:I guess it goes back to also Crono. If you took that parenting analogy, how would you act if your child got 100% in a spelling test versus if they got a 5% in a spelling test versus if they got a 5% in a spelling test? You'd still love them too, right? Like that's the.
Speaker 1:Love them and you'll say, okay, well, how can we make five become 10? First off, are you interested in doing that? That'd be the first thing I'd ask. Yeah, it's like I say to an athlete, no matter what age or what grade you know, are you? I'm showing you some clips now. Now, you would have had it when you were playing.
Speaker 1:You want to show your clips of stuff to improve on, you know, and I quite often turn around and go right now, listen, this is just me, my observation, not saying I'm right, but this is me. What do you think? No, no, you're right. Chrono, are you interested in tidying that up or not? I go oh, yeah, well, if you're really interested, let's have a yarn about how we're going to do it and then we work out you know a drill or skill how we're going to do it. During the week we'll report back, you know, and we just keep improving.
Speaker 1:But I think, again, I'd still take that extra 10 seconds to have a conversation with your athlete, to make sure they agree with you first. And the second thing is say, well, do you actually want to change? Because if you don't want to change, you could train this all week, but on Saturday you'll still revert to type. You'll still go back to your old habit. So unless you are really keen to change from your old habit to a new habit, we're all wasting our time. I can tell you that now. So old way, new way, you know. So unless you've got buy-in, you know you're just bloody plastering over it really.
Speaker 2:Yeah, is that how you would start a lot of conversations with? Do you want my observation? Or here's an observation, or here's my opinion.
Speaker 1:Would you start with that sort of yeah, and I remember back, oh, it'd be five years ago I was doing New Zealand under 20 trial and then the next morning I had to go and do one-on-ones with the front row boys and the normal system is you'd have clips and you sit them down and you and they'd make their notes and and you know, and I'd put them to the and off they go.
Speaker 1:You know, and I thought it was all ready to go for this big prop, you know, ready to go for him. And he, he came in and I said, oh, I'm not. I'm just going to ask you two questions. Yep, if you played 80 minutes yesterday in the first trial, if 10 out of 10 was your best game and one out of 10 was your worst game, where did you rate yourself yesterday? Take your time, no hurry. And he thinks he goes. Oh, seven and a half, maybe. Around there I said, yep, that's good. Would you like my opinion? Yes, I would Chrono. Okay, now I'm going to give you an option here One I can sugarcoat the hell out of it or 10, I can be brutally honest. Where would you like me to be? I'd like you to be a 10 chronic. Okay, you're a two out of 10 yesterday. And my humble opinion, not saying I'm right Now here, I'm just going to show two or three clips that help support my view.
Speaker 1:Right, so we have a discussion about that. He goes, okay. What's your second question? I said in that 80 minutes you played, what percentage did you walk? Take your time, no hurry, he goes. Yep, I walked 20%. Okay, would you like my honest opinion again? Yep, I said same 10 out of 10? Yep, you walked 90% of the game, but the 10% you didn't walk was bloody good. Now here's a couple of clips to support what I'm thinking about. So you know, he's at the bottom of a ruck and he's lying there having a cup of tea and eventually gets up and eventually walks and eventually starts jogging and eventually runs. You know, you know the story, I do. Eventually walks and eventually starts jogging and eventually runs. You know the story.
Speaker 1:I do Now. There's a bit of a gap here between you and me right Now, even if we just meet in the middle. There's a wee bit of scope for you to get better, I'd suggest you know. And he said yeah, there is Cronin. I said now, what's your goal? What's your goal in rugby? He said I want to be an All Black. Okay, so obviously we ought to do something about this. So are you happy with us sorting out a plan? Yes, I am. So we sorted out a plan. Every week he would text me, and all the way through, even in 2019 World Cup, he was texting every week.
Speaker 1:Eventually, this young man got a contract at MPC, which is wonderful, and eventually he got a contract at Super Rugby and over a couple of years, they really knocked him into shape and he's a good athlete and now he's an All Black. He's the first pick All Black. Now, that's a conversation. I'm not saying I had anything to do with him being an all black, but that's a conversation about awareness. I could have shown 20 clips of him being this or him being that and he'd go oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's been shown that probably every year for bloody five years. But by having an honest conversation in a polite manner and getting permission to give your version of what you saw not saying I'm right, just what I saw then we can have an open and honest conversation and then we can go righto, we got to fix those things. If you'd like them to be fixed, then how are we going to do it? Then we put things in place.
Speaker 2:Hmm, if you'd like them to be fixed, then how are we going to do it? Then we put things in place. I guess for me that comes back to that Benjamin Franklin quote, right, like involve me and I'll learn, as opposed to tell me, I forget. Teach me and I may remember. Like I think the old school way is tell me and I forget. Like you just tell here's what you did wrong, all the things you did wrong, whereas that process you just described was a wonderful involvement piece. That's right, making that person feel really connected to you and then engage with the advice and feedback.
Speaker 1:And what I loved about it. I said to him you've got to be honest with me. Rugby's an honest man's game. You've got to be honest. So if you cock up, you've got to tell me out of the blue I get a text. Well, I was overseas, you know chrono, I'd bug it up this week. I missed an appointment or whatever it was. That's all I want. I just want honesty. We've got honesty, we're okay. You know we can deal with it.
Speaker 1:So, uh, I thought, well, now, now we're getting something because he trusts you. He trusts you to tell you, so it's a safe environment for him to operate in with me. Now we can keep making progress and in the end we have a lot more positives than negatives. In the end he's all positive now. But don't underestimate the power of conversation, because a lot of coaches today the power of conversation, because a lot of coaches today is done by sending clips to them on their phone, giving them messages on the phone. They battle too, to be fair, the modern day person sitting down having a yarn. But I can tell you honestly, by sitting in a room having a quiet chat and just covering things off politely and you make far more progress than just sending a clip over a phone.
Speaker 2:Is that because you're connecting not just on the rugby side, but on people's side as well? Of course yeah.
Speaker 1:How are you going Now? You know how's your dad. I heard he had a bit of bad health. You know, oh, yeah, he's good. Thanks, conor. Da-da-da-da, okay, and you've moved, haven't you? Didn't you move from such and such? Yeah, yeah, how'd the shift go? Oh, the shift went okay. You know it's quite stressful shifts. You know cha-cha-cha, and you know like it's life. We're in here and it's a life.
Speaker 1:I'm not just your rugby coach, I'm your well, for most of them I'm your friend too and I'll be. Hopefully I could be an acquaintance for life. You know, and vicky versa, and you care about them and they appreciate that you care, and you do remember that they did have a father that was sick. Now let's have a wee yarn about the game on the weekend and quite often they want to start by telling you what they did wrong. So I stopped them there. I said no, no, what went well? And a lot of them battle, to be fair, particularly the ladies.
Speaker 1:When I was coaching the Blackfans, they struggled to think of good things. They did Things they needed to improve on. It was right at the front of the brain. Things they did well was way at the back of the brain. I had to bring it to the front. Show what a good player you are. Why is that important? Well, because they're beating themselves up all the time.
Speaker 1:I said to one lady who's a bloody good player. She said can I do a one-on-one with you about the test on the weekend? Oh yeah, sure. I said if you want to bring a couple of clips to show me, by all means. She brought 27 clips to me, all things she thought she'd done wrong. I said I'm not even going to look at them. I said you must think you're bloody awful. I said you're one of our best players. Oh, really, you know, they just beat themselves up.
Speaker 1:I said I'm going to look at one thing. Well, you've got to have a yarn about one thing we can work on this week that you'd like to work on, that we can move to get ready for the next test. It's even clips. You've got to understand their mindset, that thinking of negative at the front of the brain. You know you're an athlete. I want positive. Let's work out all the good things you've done and let's tidy up the one thing, or maybe two, that we just need to tidy up. Not that you did wrong, just tidy up and get a wee bit better at how are we going to do it and off we go. That's a hell of a lot different to. Let's look at your 27 failures, yeah very different.
Speaker 2:And just out of interest. Do you reckon that's new or do you reckon that's always been there? Do you reckon the modern athlete is more harder on themselves in terms of that side of things?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think they are. I was shocked by when I coached the Black Ferns. It just seemed to come natural to them to look at the negative first and they found it hard to find the positive. Once we found the positive first, with very little negative, and just tidy that up with Smithy and I and the other coaches, I thought we got a really good. You know, they got better, better, better, better. And the other thing was, if they failed at something at training they really beat themselves up.
Speaker 1:And then one day I said look to one lady like she was crying I've never had that at training, you know, and she's a good player. And I said have you ever done this drill of just ask you to do the skill? No, I haven't. What would make you think that you could do that 100% correctly on day one? I like to do everything right. I said I know you do and that's wonderful, but I don't expect you to do it at 100% today. I'll do it in a couple of weeks' time maybe, but not today. Your first day that you learned how to turn on a computer did you nail most of it that day? It's a new skill. You don't expect you to nail it today.
Speaker 1:And once they got buy-in to that and Wayne Smith had a great saying. He used to tell them that if you're not making errors at training, you're not trying hard enough. You're not trying hard enough on your skill to develop your skill, because our job as a coach is to stress and stretch your skill ability. When you finally do the skill, I said to the ladies you know what I do when you finally achieve this skill I've given you. I said I'm going to make that harder so you fail again for a wee while. Then you'll succeed and you'll be able to do that extended skill drill perfectly. Do you know what I'm going to do to you? Then they said are you going to make it harder again? I said correct, to the day you retire. Our job as a coach is to stress and stretch your skill ability. Love it.
Speaker 1:So once you've got that in your head, when you make an error through a skill at training, don't beat yourself up Quickly. You don't want to make an error. I understand that. But you've tried something or you've identified straight away what you've done. Your hands were too late coming up, maybe, or whatever it may be. You can identify because we've taught you the skill within the drill, you can identify that and you can self-correct. So next thing, you've got a learning environment.
Speaker 2:We're off, it's positive, it's learning, it's safe, we're away Love it, and do you sometimes do that with the positive that you just talked about? If you pull out a positive that said I did this well, do you often double down on that and say, righto, well, this week let's make that even better. Oh yeah, that's why you get that positive pull out and you just dive in on that, double down essentially yeah, you might see a guy do a great jackal, but he did a great jackal because it was a piss poor clean out.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So again it's. You know, don't just look at the outcome and say what a great jackal, because we got a penalty or we won the ball Process. Was the process correct? You're a golfer and you're putting and the ball went in the hole. Yes, it did go in the hole. Was your process correct? No, so be careful of outcome. Be careful of line-out training. We jumped and we caught the ball. Great line-out? No, not always.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Low lift double hop jump hooker. Slow through the air. That's your process. Don't get hoodwinked by the outcome, particularly at training.
Speaker 2:I love that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when I'm doing line out coaching, like in the Wallabies here, I do the skill of the line-out and Jeff Parling does the. He runs the line-out, so he's the boss, but he has the structures and setups and systems. I just get my little iPad and I video from the shoulders down down to the feet every line-out and I check every line-out as we go. I'm only looking at skill, nothing else, not looking at the bull. I'm looking at skill and if it needs correcting, we correct, because there's no place for mediocrity.
Speaker 2:Minimize mediocrity. That was what we started with.
Speaker 1:Yeah, don't allow mediocrity.
Speaker 2:Love it, crono, love it, mate. And what about when you're talking about, when you're doing this and you're telling about these stories? You're a very good storyteller. When you're telling the stuff, chrono Is that important too, like when you're going through this drills, like I'm thinking specifically of when you did the mall training and you showed the long picture.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I just loved it. Would you be able to dive into that when you're coaching people? I just think it's a wonderful thing that you do.
Speaker 1:Well, I'll just explain that In 2019, I was in Japan with the All Blacks to World Cup and my wife and I went for a walk and we went for a cup of coffee and outside the coffee shop there's a sculpture of like an animal, four or five in a row with, basically, the head up each other's ass. I mean, I said, christ, I've got to photograph this. So I photographed it, and the next morning we had the forwards getting ready to play Ireland in the quarterfinal. I said, boys, I saw something yesterday. I want to put it up here. It reminded me, to remind you, boys, about something. So I put this photograph of the sculpture up and they had a giggle and I said, right on, soon. As I saw it, I thought, jeez, I must remind the boys this. What do you think I need to remind you? And they had a stab and oh, was it this, was it that? And I said, keep our mall long, keep our mall long. You have to have your head up each other's ass. You can have it out the side, but you've got to be long. And so it was just a thing, the front of the brain, with a bit of humor. And then, lo and behold, we play island on the weekend and it was the perfect picture of that mall where we're long.
Speaker 1:So at the review the following monday I took, I said there it is boys, there's the sculpture, there's the mall. Now that could be a complete load of shit about the game. You get a bit of humor. I've got these images. You know what I mean. You're bringing things to the front of the brain. That isn't a word. It's just not a word, it's a picture, it's a vision. So all those little things, I think, help when you're trying to bring something to the front of the brain to make it relevant. That's all, that's right.
Speaker 2:And do you think it correlates to the cultural piece as well? What, trying to create a culture, you've got to sell stories and things around the environment and what you stand for and your values and all that stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and also the fact that it's okay to give something a crack or to show something a wee bit different. It's okay. You know I'm doing this all my life. I've been bloody cord wacky or bells and whistles or whatever I've had in my younger day. You know, I was buddy, I was a. You know I was a goofball because I did things differently, um and, and I don't know why I did it differently. I just knew I thought the player could learn better in other ways than the norm. That was all. And even today I never train without video or iPad or iPhone.
Speaker 1:You've got to have the ability at training to show the athlete some form of visual feedback if it's required. It may not be required, but you've got to have the ability. So if we're doing a line out at training and I'm doing the little videoing on the iPad and I see a jumper do a big dip and a slow jump, you know I go, billy, I've got it. You know we don't have to stop training, but he's corrected, self-corrected, immediately by having a look at that. So we're not going to train another 20 line outs of shit technique. We have fixed that and we've corrected it and there's no place in mediocrity, to do another 20 of bad ones, and they really respond to that. They love that, they love that there is a watchdog helping them to make sure they don't fall back into poor technique.
Speaker 1:Now, when I speak to other coaches, they go we haven't got time for that rubbish. Okay, so do your 20 then, and do your 20 of mediocrity. Maybe, maybe not, but how do you know and do you have the ability to correct that without saying a word like Johnny, big tick, yeah, that can work, but, johnny, have a look, what are you seeing? Jesus, I've done a big tick that is far more powerful 100% of this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you almost have an iPad attached to you permanently, don't you, connor?
Speaker 1:I do, yeah, yeah, I carry it everywhere. And I was doing a session a couple of years ago at high school and kids I've never coached before were doing a clean-out session. So I put them into groups of three. We're doing a little one-on-one, you know accelerate through contact, weak shoulder, fight to stay up place, all those things. Put them into groups of three. Two do the activity and the third one had an iPhone. Their own iPhone had video and they'd rotate and then they'd come into their little group and they'd look at themselves do that little clean out drill.
Speaker 1:And I had all these groups of three scattered and I stood well away and I kept all the coaches well away and just let them learn and get deep learning from that drill, the skill within the drill that I've been trying to teach them. And I put them out and though I lost, I kept looking for a coach to come over and self-correct I said no, you're right, have a wee play, have a wee look. If you're in trouble, just put your hand up and I'll walk over, but I'm not coming over unless you put your hand up. How did it go?
Speaker 1:no-transcript playing a game on the Saturday. It was pre-season, so you're not preparing to play a game and you could have all the drills set up where it's easy to do 1v1 and with a third one, videoing, you know like little placement drills, little fight to stay up drills, get to a weak shoulder drill, all those things it was easy to do 1v1. I accept that. I accept we weren't preparing for a game on the weekend, but there might be during the year when you're preparing for a game on the weekend, on a Tuesday, you might say we're going to do this drill and I think just for this one drill, I reckon the boys would really benefit from groups of three in activity.
Speaker 1:The third one was an iPhone. They all got iPhones. So I get all this discussion from coaches overseas. We don't have any equipment and I go well, that's got me thinking. Well, everyone's got a bloody iPhone. So how can we use that in a good manner where it's not interfering with training and taking up time, but they're getting deep learning? This is deep learning that I'm telling you about, because they're having to look, they're having to discuss and go and do it again, repeat and then say no, I said as soon as you've nailed it, put your hand up and say we're finished, we're stopped. As soon as you've nailed it, we finish, move on.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So you've given them ownership to tell me when you think you've done that drill correctly.
Speaker 2:That's the ultimate involvement, isn't it? Yeah, you stepping away as a coach.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's hard to do. Yeah, right, put our Mr Fix-It hat on. One is a man. That's what we do as a male, apparently, according to my wife, and apparently we do as a coach. So I've got a double whammy. I want to coach them, you know, and in my young day I was all over that. I was in there, I was bloody, you know, and as I got older, I think, the further I got back, you know.
Speaker 2:Do you reckon that's a natural progression, like in general, like, say, in your parenting journey as well, you stand back more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, probably you do, probably you do Probably you get it more. You've got to have self-confidence. I think it's a bit like coaches say I don't have enough time to coach what I want to coach. Now, coach can be our enemy or it can be well, we've got to deal with it. It's like paying taxes. There's no way around this.
Speaker 2:Well, there's some way around it. There's a few way around it, but we won't go there, right.
Speaker 1:Get Donald JT to help. So for me I'd write down what I want to do 25-minute line-out session, three minutes drill, two minutes. Four minutes adds up 25. That's what we all do and I kept running out of time and the things I really wanted to coach I never had enough time for and I got really frustrated. I was a frustrated coach many years ago. I need more time. So once I worked out I can't get more time then how the hell can I use that time better? So I'd write my little wee six things out and what I do.
Speaker 1:One is always primers. I never sacrifice my primer drills to get them ready to do the real activity. Then I circle the two that I must do at all costs and I'm prepared to not complete the other three or the other two or whatever it may be. I tell the trainer three or the other two or whatever it may be. I tell the trainer say I've got a 25-minute session. I say to the trainer can you tell me when I've got two minutes left please? I never look at my watch again. I coach. I know what I want to do. I've written it down. It's on a bit of paper in my pocket. I know that, but I'll coach. And if I have three minutes to do this skill drill that I want to nail and it needs more time, we do more time because that's okay. I'll catch up on that last drill, the last two drills, the next time you coach completely different.
Speaker 1:If a player said to me you know Chrono, can I have a quick look at that in the iPad? Of course you can, instead of no, we haven't got time, I'll show it to you after training Chrono, can we just do one more of that in more defence? Of course we can, instead of no, we'll do it Thursday, because my watch says that's our time. You want your players to interact. You want them to be the small gap between you and them. Yeah, I mean, there is a reason. You can't keep them going forever. But instead of a three minute drill it might be three and a half, but they've had buy-in. You've achieved what you want to achieve. You're confident that you, that you've coached that well and you move on. You coach completely different. The boys or ladies feel that they're not seeing a coach looking at the watch, being a drill master and blowing the whistle. Time, move on. We can't go past the time you're allocated. I accept that, but you can coach it and not train it. There's a difference. Don't be a trainer, be a coach.
Speaker 2:Jeez Crono. You're like the source of all coaching wisdom. You really are man.
Speaker 1:Again, I'm not saying I'm right. I'm just saying what works for me, what I think works for me. You'd have to ask the players. They probably think it's a load of shit.
Speaker 2:I know they don't Right. Hey, I'm really conscious that you've got to go soon, so I just want to. I just want to ask you the final question here, which is one which is really interesting from someone of your perspective and your experiences Is there any aspect of rugby that you think that you agree with that you think potentially your contemporaries or your peers would disagree with around anything to do with rugby?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think, like in the last two organisations I've been in, they like to put up for the players the training program three-minute drill doing this, two-minute drill doing that and they put on a you know when we're having a meeting in the meeting room. Yes, I've refused to. I've never done that and I never will. I go all they need there's only two. People need two reasons. One is they need to know what type of boots they need to wear. If it's line outs, you're in line out boots. If it's scrums, you're in scrum boots. If it's mauls, we're in scrum boots. Okay, that's all. And the analyst who's doing the filming needs to know what I'm doing and where so he can set up the cameras. You want the players to think for themselves and react on the hop, and here we are spoon feeding them and they can look in. Three minutes there, two minutes there, oh, 15 minutes more defense.
Speaker 2:I better pace myself for that. Oh see, you're right. So you think it's better, like you like them just to be able to adapt and roll and whatever comes comes.
Speaker 1:And I go 25 minutes chrono say it's scrumps, they know scrum boots, that's all they need to know. They don't need to know anything else. My leaders do. My scrum leaders I've had a quick chat with and I've gone over it with them and said this is what I think we should do today. What do you think? And if they ever said I think we should do that drill because of this team on Saturday, it's a given, it's in Thanks. You know, and sometimes I'll get them to runner you know, not me and so I confer with them so they agree before training that that's what we're going to do. But the players themselves, they don't need to know. What the hell do they need to know for? They just need to know how long, what type of boots.
Speaker 2:I really enjoy Grono. Just your thought and your perspective on stuff Makes me smile just thinking about it, mate. But I will, mate. It's been an absolute pleasure having you on the show today, mate. I appreciate you. You're actually going out for a dinner now with the coaching crew.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that in itself is a cool thing that you go out as a collective Australian coaching group and reconnect over dinner. It's always lovely to hear, so appreciate you taking the time out to share your wisdom with this podcast. So what a pleasure, what a privilege. Thank you, crono.
Speaker 1:Thank you, see you later.
Speaker 2:Here are my final three takeaways from a conversation with Mike Cron. Number one the quote he uses exclusively now as his quote of quotes From Benjamin Franklin quote Tell me I forget, teach me and I may remember. Involve me and I'll learn. I think it's pretty fair to say if you were to carry around one quote as a coach, written down on a little card in your wallet, that you refer back to. This is an absolute definite. It changes the way you think about how you coach, about involving rather than just telling, shifting your coaching mentality from one from I'm the boss, do what I say to one of inclusion and involvement.
Speaker 2:Number two we love you regardless. Now, this is Mike Cron all over. He doesn't change from inside the change room where his team wins or it loses. We love you before you go out there. We love you when you get back. He treats people as people and loves them absolutely accordingly. What a fantastic, refreshing outlook from one of the world's best coaches. Number three a coach has to have big ears. What Mike means by this is when you're listening, you're truly listening and you're picking up more than just the answers. You're picking up the tone, the traits, the body language, the context behind what that person's saying, and the better you hear these things, the more you actually hear, the more you learn, the deeper you go with someone, and if you're prepared to go there as a coach, the kickback on the other side is your players are going to learn better because they enjoy you and they appreciate being heard. Until next time, stay well.