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Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Seilala Mapusua: Understanding Polynesian Players.
Seilala Mapusua takes us on a profound journey through the cultural landscapes of rugby, drawing from his remarkable career spanning from Samoa to New Zealand's Otago, London Irish in England, and Japan's Kubota Spears.
At the heart of this conversation lies a powerful coaching philosophy: "Connect with the person, then you can coach the player." Mapusua reveals how this approach becomes especially crucial when working with Pacific Island players, whose cultural foundations rest firmly on family and faith. For coaches seeking to truly engage with these athletes, understanding their family context often means reaching out directly to parents – a gesture that acknowledges the player's broader identity and community connections.
The cultural transitions Mapusua experienced throughout his career offer invaluable lessons about adaptation and understanding. His move from a predominantly Polynesian boarding school to southern New Zealand taught him that "it's not right, it's not wrong, it's just different" – a perspective that allowed him to thrive across dramatically different rugby environments. This acceptance of cultural differences becomes a blueprint for coaches working with diverse teams.
Particularly illuminating are Mapusua's insights into cultural misunderstandings that can derail player-coach relationships. He explains how in Pacific Island culture, looking down during conversation demonstrates respect rather than disrespect – a subtle yet significant distinction that Western coaches might misinterpret. Similarly, he highlights how testing protocols might not accurately reflect the on-field capabilities of Pacific Island players, echoing Ben Ryan's discovery that Fijian players performed dramatically better when speed-tested with a ball in hand.
Now coaching with Moana Pacifica, Mapusua demonstrates how creating environments that feel like "home" unlocks player potential. Starting each day with prayer and song isn't about manufacturing culture – it's about authentically expressing shared values and creating meaningful connection points where players can be their true selves.
Ready to transform your coaching approach? This episode will challenge you to expand your cultural awareness and develop deeper connections with your players, regardless of their background.
Faith doesn't have to be a prayer Faith. It could be any kind of connection that brings everyone in. I'm a big believer in that. Connect with the person, then you can coach the player. If you want a player, go talk to their parents. You connect with their parents. All you're telling them is that you care enough to acknowledge that it's not just them and it's not just the individual that you're signing or inheriting. The aspect of Pacific Island is around culture. So, speaking to a player and they refuse to look you in the eyes, it can be seen as you're not listening or you're disrespecting me, whereas for the player, looking down shows that you know you are humbling yourself or that is a mark of respect. What about Noah's Ark? And I'm sure when the animals were lining up, noah didn't say I mean animals that can climb trees, can go on the ark.
Speaker 2:Ooh yeah, welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Salala Mapasua, one of the current Moana Pacific coaches and former Manu Samoa head coach. He has had an outstanding playing career, playing for Otago 68 games, highlanders 51 games before going over to the UK and playing a whopping 126 games for the London Irish, including Players Player of the Year in 2008 for the entire Premiership. He won multiple Premiership titles before heading away to Japan and finishing his career with the mighty Kubota Spears in the Kamaishi Seaways. He has had an epic rugby journey for the last 25 years and now is in the trenches of coaching. He is proudly Samoan and knows all about the cultural differences associated with Pacific Island rugby. Here it is Righto Mups. Welcome to the show. First question for you what is culture? It's all I've been.
Speaker 1:Good to see you, my man. Culture the way I look at culture, especially in a team environment, I suppose it's the set of beliefs, beliefs of values and expectations I suppose you have of each other in the group. It's kind of like your agreement with everyone in the group that this is how we're going to live, this is how we're going to behave, this is what we expect from each other, and we're also holding each other and we'll also hold each other accountable to it. And I think, in its simplest form, I think it's that sometimes written, sometimes unwritten agreement that you have with the other members in your group and then that's I mean the culture's what drives how you're going to live, and then it's up to the members to bring it to life.
Speaker 2:Mate love it. I love that phrase. It's an agreement, mate. It makes it sound like a legal term. But is there a degree of when you say written and unwritten? Have you experienced that in your career? Written rules for the culture.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've seen it. I've been in teams where they've been written down and we all go through those value sessions where what are our values and the usual ones come up Respect, honesty and it gets written down and everyone leaves the room feeling good about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right, Looks good right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so that's what I mean by sometimes written, sometimes unwritten. There's different ways to reach that agreement. It's the actions, you know, it's the bringing those words to life. And when you can have those words, that you can kind of pin your expectations back on, then it's up to the influencers or the drivers to really bring them to life.
Speaker 2:Now, mups, your journey, playing and coaching journey has been a pretty diverse one, mate, like I want to bring you back to when you started. You went to Wesley College in Auckland, which is a big Polynesian college, and then you had a massive cultural shift from there right where you played one game for counties, but then you went down and played the bottom of the South Island, new Zealand, otago and the Highlanders, which probably couldn't get more culturally contrast in the country, correct? How?
Speaker 2:was that transition made and what did you learn from that sort of experience and what can you enlighten people on from that massive difference from Pacific Island College going down to something which was as far from Pacific Island as you?
Speaker 1:can get Ben I think that's an understatement the way you described it Going from Wesleyan College boarding school as well predominantly boys boarding school and everyone looked like me. It was actually it was the white guy in the school who was usually our first five in the rugby team Going from that and then heading down south. I didn't actually realize how far south Dunedin was until I was actually there and I went into a hostel down there and they had a map of New Zealand and we had to pin where you're from.
Speaker 1:They had this map and map and you depend on it. I kind of like made my way down. I was like Christchurch I've been there once in Christchurch this was the second time I'd ever been to the South Island and then I kept going further down. I was like Dunedin's, almost like you're almost in the necktack of the way I saw it. It pretty much is. I couldn't believe how far south it was. That in itself was a bit to take in, but in terms of culture shock, wow. I definitely knew I wasn't in South Auckland. Once I had arrived into the Netherlands and went out for a walk into Downing Door Street, went to the Meridian very different down here.
Speaker 2:What was the big differences, mate? Once you got down there, you came down to go well at rugby and rugby-wise when you're in that environment. What did you find was the big difference on that front? It?
Speaker 1:was awesome, learning a different way of playing in the game. I think it was a big difference coming from Auckland especially in high school rugby, where everyone was big Coming down and seeing the rugby scene in Otago you just have good people, hardworking people, honest people who just have awesome work ethics, people from the country. That was a big learning for me as well. I realised that I being big and fast wasn't enough, being talented wasn't enough, and seeing just how hard could people work down south in terms of the rugby and you know my first game and I thought I will run over these guys and I may have got them once, but they just kept coming, kept coming back and coming back and I was like man, what's it going to take to break these guys down?
Speaker 1:And they just didn't stop coming and it was a really good wake-up call for myself to understand that you're in the real world now Big shifts, eh.
Speaker 2:And then your career just kept shifting right, like. I played for London Irish for 124 games, including Premiership. Player of the Year, players' Player of the Year, mate. That's another big jump. And then another big jump culturally to Japan, where you played a truckload of seasons for Kubota and Kamoishi. And along the way, mate, you had seven years with Samoa and then you had seven games for the Pacific Islanders Island team as well, mate. You are jumping like. You've almost tasted every culture that's around, mate. And how's that journey been for you?
Speaker 1:It's been amazing. I can honestly say I've picked up something from every single team I've been in, whether it's one game or a few games or 100 games. The different From every single team I've been in, whether it's one game or a few games or a hundred games the different environments, understanding, the different ways to approach the game and also life. The lifestyles have been very different. Going from Dunedin to London, that was a huge cultural shock. And then from London to Tokyo again different lifestyles. And then, after being away from New Zealand for about 10, 11 years I think that was probably one of the biggest culture shocks for me was moving back to New Zealand with the family.
Speaker 1:I remember, at the end of it all, coming back to New Zealand and realizing how much things had changed Society, life in New Zealand. And getting back to Dunedin and not knowing how to get a cell phone, not knowing what are all these different plans. There was more than just Vodafone and telecom. There was still telecom when I left Big culture shock. But I think it really opened up the way I looked at the world in terms of culture, in terms of life and in terms of people. I think that was one of the greatest things I'm grateful for in terms of my travels throughout the career was meeting and spending time with a lot of amazing people?
Speaker 2:Did you have to adjust much when you went to different places? Did you have to make a call to yourself that I need to change to fit in here it?
Speaker 1:wasn't so much. I feel like I didn't have to change to fit in. I think I was pretty fortunate. I remember moving to the UK, to London Irish and come from Super Rugby, which at the time to me it was the be-all and end-all of all rugby in terms of domestic competitions and going straight into the English Premiership and thinking, man, these guys are weird, what are they doing? Why are we doing this? And I questioned I actually questioned a lot and I pushed, but I had some pretty good coaches and some pretty good men around me and there were some at the time I think Ricky Flutie was there so I lost it to Rikubau, who had gone there just before me, and they were able to help me with the transition in terms of it's not right, it's not wrong, it's just different.
Speaker 1:And I think that was a big learning for me and it also made me appreciate what I had learnt or had gone so far in terms of rugby, and so I didn't feel like I needed to change or be a certain way to want to fit in. But if anything, it made me look at OK, what can I bring, how can I add to what's already there and how can I contribute to, at the end of the day, the common goal.
Speaker 2:I love that phrase, mate. It's not right or wrong, it's just different. I think that's a lovely approach, right, like when you have that approach, you don't beat yourself up about being different in the first place, you just accept that things are different here and then I just think, well, what you said about what I can add, do you think everybody has that approach? Do you think you have to have that approach to seamlessly do as well as you have to transition between the different teams?
Speaker 1:I think that to a certain degree, because you are going and joining a team, the team's not joining you, if that makes sense. I kind of look at it as when I went to Japan, we had very, very few foreigners in the Japanese team. I think I quickly worked out and learning from the guys that had already been there that it doesn't matter which foreigners are in your team. At the end of the day, it's the team with the best Japanese players that are going to win.
Speaker 1:I kind of had this mindset of going there and understanding that I wasn't going to change the world, but if I could one again contribute and help grow those around me and contribute to the team winning, then I'd lose. Does that make sense? It does, you know. So it also allowed me to really enjoy the experience and I knew that I had to. It wasn't changed the way I thought, but I had to embrace what was already there and I kind of took that learning from going to the UK and embrace and understand that there's different ways of doing things and that's okay. And I think that the and it doesn't mean you have to change who you are or change your values or beliefs. It's just changing the process and I think that really helped me.
Speaker 2:I love it, mate. I love it and I certainly like. I think when you can enjoy it more, right, you certainly. I think that's an underlying principle in rugby. You enjoy it, you do better, and then Mups you. You went to, then you got into your coaching, so you retired from playing, had amazing career, including some games for the Pacific Island combination team, which I love, and now you're in the mix. You're a head coach of Samoa, now you're the backs coach for Moana Pacific and the coaching journey is a very different one, but it puts you in a really good spot.
Speaker 2:Now to make comment on. Something which I'm really intrigued about myself is the cultural piece around the Polynesian cultures, which I know, you know so well, having grown up, been born and raised on the islands, then coming to a largely Polynesian high school. But I'd love to get like in these days, like Pacific Island players are pretty much in every team throughout the world. They're probably the most overrepresented nationality in world rugby. I think In Tonga and Samoa it's probably one of the national exports, isn't it? Rugby players.
Speaker 1:I think it'll be pretty close.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, from your perspective, mate, what are the hallmarks of Polynesian culture Hall? From your perspective, mate, what are the hallmarks of Polynesian culture?
Speaker 1:Hallmarks good? That's a great question. I think the reason why Pacific Islanders gravitate towards rugby or team sports is that we one of the biggest pillars or values that definitely from some point of view and I understand most of the pacific is is a family, family and faith, and that's really important. And being a family orange had a culture that, um, belief that you're part of something bigger than yourselves. It is not uncommon to have three to four different, three to four generations of family in one roof, under under one roof, so being part of something bigger in the family setting, I think we're also big on the life of service.
Speaker 1:We have a proverb in Samoan which is commonly used amongst our people and translates to the road to leadership is through service. We view service, we value service very, very highly and I think that is one of the hallmarks in terms of the more you give, the more you give, the more you receive, if that makes sense. Yeah, I think in terms of the actual culture itself, that, plus our faith, our belief, which we put a lot of value on, just aligns with what rugby teams are about. Our faith is definitely a hallmark of Polynesian culture and, again, that belief in something greater than yourself, I think, is a big part of it all.
Speaker 2:And is the faith Christianity Mark? Is that the primary faith across Samoa, tonga, even Fiji? I believe. So what you refer to when you talk about faith, it's that aspect.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's Christianity, and that is the biggest.
Speaker 2:And what aspects mate like. I'm really intrigued on this family side of things With an amount of essentially exports from the islands what are like foreign countries, and coaches particularly miss around this family and faith element when they're dealing with Polynesian players, because with players in every team, you want to get it right, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think a lot of teams do it well. I think the big thing is connection. Really, if you want the best out of a Polynesian or Pacific Island player, we're big on that sense of belonging, that you belong, that you're a part of something. Hence why we put big emphasis on family as well. Every Pacific will rip their village wherever they go and you see the flags out, that sense of belonging. I think that's where teams that do well really get the best out of their players. I kind of think of the Penrith Panthers and seeing how they are and you can see that those boys that's their home, that's where they belong. To that it's not just that team but also that whole area. And so with that, I think, comes the care, the care aspect. Do you?
Speaker 2:think the care aspect is more important for Polynesian players than non-Polynesian players? Do you think no?
Speaker 1:no, I don't. I don't think it's more important. I think it's because, again, the sense of belonging means you don't want to be treated any different. Yeah, I just want to be treated fairly. Yeah, you don't have to treat everyone the same, you just have to treat everyone fair. The way I see it and that care I think it's part of that care is how you one connect with Polynesian players. It's that whole carrot versus the cane.
Speaker 2:Is that a big one? Like, where do you lean on that side of things?
Speaker 1:To me. I think it's a, it is a spectrum, that you can't just be one or the other. I think there's different situations where tough love is needed, or sometimes it might be a quiet word just to say I need you today, we need you today, and that's all it might be. And it might be. We often hear a lot of coaches talking about having those little conversations with players that involve rugby, and that's really huge for Pacific Islanders because all they tell them is that you see me, you see me as a person, you see me for who I am, okay, what do you need from me? And it's again the connection and the sense of belonging that one sentence or a chicken can really go far.
Speaker 2:Because it's interesting too, when you talk about the belonging, you're talking about three or four generations in one home. If you're coming from that environment, you go into a place where, such as England or even New Zealand, where it's largely just the mother, father, two kids, that's the family unit. It's a very different approach, isn't it? I?
Speaker 1:believe so. We hear it often now with rugby players today talk about, oh, no, they talk about brothers, the brothers, the brothers they talk about oh, you know, just doing my job for the brothers we literally mean brothers, as in anything for those boys. Yeah, so it's, it's not just the um, no, it's not just a slang word, or so when I hear that, I think of that sense of belonging and those connections that those boys have in that team and do you reckon it really just comes from just having those conversations first before you knuckle down into any sort of other stuff?
Speaker 2:I know it's probably appropriate for everybody, but I feel like there's something bigger. When you're dealing with people that have grown up with a whole different awareness of a bigger picture. You've got to get that connection first, to make them feel part of something, would you say. That's got to come first before the rugby side.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, I'm a big believer in that and I believe that you know connect with the person, then you can coach the player. And I think you know I often tell coaches and teams person, then you can coach the player. And I think I often tell coaches and teams if you want a player, go talk to their parents. I know they're in their 20s, but you connect with their parents. All you're telling them is that you care enough to acknowledge that it's not just them and it's not just the individual that you're signing or inheriting.
Speaker 1:You're willing to take you and everything that comes with you, and I think that also goes a long way.
Speaker 2:And as a coach.
Speaker 1:That's also where you go if the player's not pulling his weight or playing up. I'm going to go see your dad.
Speaker 2:One thing that coaches should be aware of is the importance of the other family members. So, if I'm dealing with a player, the importance of actually getting to know the mother and father, if you're dealing with 18, 9-year-olds, in Pacific Island culture, connecting with mum and dad is actually probably a magnified thing compared to someone needing to connect with their parents?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think so. And again, I kind of go back to that it's not right, it's not wrong, it's just different. I kind of go back to that. It's not right, it's not wrong, it's just different. And I think it shows that you're willing to understand and then connect with the individual. And again, we often have sayings as coaches that no one cares what you know until they know how much you care. That's what it literally looks like for Norwegian players. You show that you care enough to understand them and where they come from and accept that it's different, then you know you're going to get a player who's going to give everything they have.
Speaker 2:Mate that statement. I think that's true anyway. But no one cares what you know until they know you care. Couldn't be just in my experience, like with Polynesian players? They know you care and they'll live and breathe everything you say as a coach. But you've got to get to that point first. I think it's true with everybody. But there's something else.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm sure you've been kidnapped by the Tulani family while you were living there at some point.
Speaker 2:Correct. Well, the other thing which I think a lot of coaches miss sometimes with Polynesian players, mups, is that a lot of the guys probably like yourself as well you get sort of sent off. When you're born and bred in the islands, you get sent off quite early as a young man. Your mum and dad stay on the island and it's very common for Pacific Island players to be sent to New Zealand or England or now Japan. There's a lot going to Japan and that's tough as a young kid going to high school like brand new place, all new and without your parents in a boarding house. How does that, you know? And then does that affect where does a player go when they're doing that sort of thing? Because it's very common, isn't it, that transition it is common.
Speaker 1:I mean, I can speak to my own experience and I still, I believe I left home at 12 to go to boarding. When I went to boarding school because I never lived at home ever again after that, and so you've got to grow up pretty quickly and all you've known is that family nucleus and that safety, I suppose, of your family. I've seen now players, boys, young men that are leaving their homes at 14, 15, 16. Leaving their homes at 14, 15, 16. Now it used to be a lot to be to New Zealand and Australia, but now you're talking about Japan, france. Yeah, it's a lot, I believe, and that's why I feel like it's really important for clubs to really get that part right in terms of always having that connection back to the home base, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and particularly it's probably relevant for all coaches who are coaching those clubs to know that, especially with these young kids coming across at 14, 15, like you say, there's no parental person with them. They're sort of learning everything themselves, right? So they haven't got someone at home. They're not living at home per se, so they haven't got that role modeling. They're basically basing everything off what they're doing at rugby or school, right, that becomes a coach. When you know that you are now probably the most senior adult person in their life that they're looking up to, you probably have to take a lot more care. Knowing that right A hundred percent.
Speaker 1:I think one of my favorite quotes by coach John Wooden was around. He said that a good coach can change a game and a great coach can change a life, and I think that's how coaches have to see themselves, and it's not just Polynesian kids, I think. When you're coaching at that age level, I think that's really important.
Speaker 2:Blows me away, mate. What are coaches get wrong in your eyes, mate, that either you've gone through as a Pacific Island player or you've seen Anything that stands out as a pretty consistent miss when dealing with Polynesian players.
Speaker 1:I think it's just misunderstanding. I think it's not understanding the player, especially in terms of understanding for Pacific Islanders. I speak to Pacific Islanders around culture, so you know, when speaking to a player and they refuse to look you in the eyes, it can be seen as oh, you're not listening or you're disrespecting me, whereas for the player, they're taught that to look someone in the eyes, especially an adult or someone older than you or an authoritative figure, is a sign of disrespect. It means you're on the same level as them.
Speaker 1:So looking down shows that you are humbling yourself, for you know that is a mark of respect, and I think so. I think things like that.
Speaker 2:That's a big one, right, because that's a big cultural difference, right there isn't it Like? In one culture that's a disrespectful thing, in one culture that's a super respectful thing, correct? How do you remedy that? Ah, good question.
Speaker 1:Is that on the coach? I think that's all part of connection. You've got to understand who you're bringing into your environment as a coach. So whoever you're bringing into your environment, you've got to understand one who they are, and not just assume that they're going to be aligned with everything that's already in place. Yeah, so I think it's a bit of both On the flip side too, too, for Pacific Islanders understanding of where they're going and then understanding what they're walking into and seeking advice from those that have already gone before them or there, if there's any, you'll see Pacific Islanders try and connect to other Pacific Islanders that may be already in the team and get a really good understanding of where they're going. So I definitely believe it's a two-way street.
Speaker 2:That's a big learning for a lot of us, particularly in the professional world, isn't it for Polynesian players to actually have mentors that are that far ahead of them? I remember talking to a number of players Augustin Polu was a good one. Had a number of guys five ten yearsew was a good one. Had a number of guys five ten years older than him that he constantly went back to just to check in that he was on the right steps and doing it well. And that's important, isn't it? For when you don't have that rock-solid mum and dad at home and you're living abroad, that's really important, right?
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and even still, if you do have that, your parents might not. They don't know what they don't know. So I think it's especially going to rugby teams for young Pacific Island players having a good sounding board of older players, experienced players, people that can actually, yes, give them advice, but give it from a place of experience, as opposed to talking to your uncle who hasn't been in a team environment before. Well, the uncles have got some awesome advice and they're the best to serve you in what you're going into.
Speaker 2:And there's a lot of uncles there too, eh, Mups, when you're dealing with it.
Speaker 1:Even more so when you sign a contract.
Speaker 2:I love it. Well, mate, just when you talked about there's a two-way street to dealing with these cultural differences I think my wife often talks about this herself is that, even though it is a two-way street, as coaches and this is the audience for this podcast we are the adults, generally speaking. So I think this awareness, first and foremost, should fall on us as the older party here to actually bring that awareness and to be the first one that steps in and engages with trying to make the connection. I think to think it's a 50-50 split, a younger player and a coach. I think that's a little bit tougher and that's sort of voiding some of the main responsibilities of the coach, which is we've got to be the leader and we've got to lead it first. That's my thoughts. Would you agree with that? Absolutely.
Speaker 1:As coaches, it's our job to facilitate a positive learning environment and so the environment that players come into that is up to us as coaches to create and drive. So those connections and that communication can be a lot easier and a lot smoother if we are creating those environments and those spaces for that to happen.
Speaker 2:Love it mate Love it.
Speaker 2:And I think the other thing which really strikes me about when we're talking about Pacific Island players is there's a lot of stereotypes for every nationality.
Speaker 2:But I think some of the ones which I'd be keen to just yarn to you about is I remember when the myth was broken around often Polynesians get the rap of being powerful, fast, that kind of athlete, which is inherently true and fitness is often not the strength. But I remember when it broke for me that stereotype when we actually tested that one year around GPS tracking super high GPS tracking and it showed the G-forces. I mean Manu Teolangi was the person that was done on In his game. G-force just went through the roof in terms of the next person was way less than 50% the G-forces that he hit. So when he hit, for example, or accelerated, it was so much quicker.
Speaker 2:Then our trainer said no wonder his Bronco times aren't as good like when he has to do this, like repeated running, because he's putting in so much more power exertions than anyone else. And I often reflect on it like foreign coaches often think oh, we've got to get these guys fit because they're great, powerful athletes. But do you think that's a stereotype which is accurate and is that true in your eyes, that kind of concept about the physical demand like on polynesian athletes?
Speaker 1:I believe it's a myth and I think we're seeing now today's athletes. They're just through the roof in terms of their output. And I kind of go back to well, what is fit? Yeah, I like that Marps. What is fit? Well, what does fit look like?
Speaker 1:I mean, you know, if there are many tests but there still isn't a rugby test, the way I see it, you may be awesome at the bronco, but if Monday too long is running at you all day, are you going to stop and say, hold on, I've got a four-minute bronco, you're not allowed to run over me. I've got a four-minute bronco, you're not allowed to run over me. But in terms of the science and things and aerobic capacity and power output and all of that, I think there's still a lot of unknown and I think there's a lot more ways that we can measure it. But I think when you're looking at output in terms of one might not have a great Bronco, but in terms of what he's producing on the field, it's well. Which is the fit? Is it being able to do that amount of power so many times, or is it a good Bronco time?
Speaker 2:I heard an amazing one on this from Ben Ryan. He told this story about when he first went to the Fiji Sevens team and he brought his speed lights from England and when he tested the team he was really underwhelmed at some of the speed times and he was like these guys are a lot quicker than this. And then the physio said to him put a ball in their hands. And they ran it again with a ball and the times were way quicker and he was like that's better. And then his physio said if you really want them to get great times, make them chase each other with the ball. And he said that's how we did it. And he said the times were through the roof.
Speaker 2:And I just think that was an interesting just getting the connection and getting the understanding of what motivates different people. Because he said that in England you didn't need to, that would make no difference, because the players are used to it. They're used to just that sort of systematic, academic way of doing things and that's just normal. So the players understand that. But I just think that little awareness from a coach to make subtle adjustments based on the different cultures is really important and because there is such a big cultural difference from living on an island in a multi-generational family.
Speaker 1:To your standard English family it's very different right, absolutely, and he may even be the youngest of seven brothers.
Speaker 2:Don't be the fourth. Is it the fourth brother? I'm not going to go down that.
Speaker 1:You're absolutely right, and Stephen Donald often talks about Sibi Beni, sibi Ratu in the same light Rapid player, but no one really knew how fast he was, because he only ever ran faster than the guy that was chasing him. So no one actually knew how fast he was or where he could get to. All he knew that he had to run faster than whoever was chasing him.
Speaker 2:Love it, mate. Now, when we're talking about chasing mate, you are chasing your coaching passion at the moment. You're currently with Moana Pacifica, so I'd love and you're going outstanding. The team's got this energy about it at the moment which it's getting results. It's making some big upsets, and there's a couple of quotes I've got from you, mate, which I'm really interested to dive in on, and you said this when you accepted the role at Moana. You said and this is your quote everything about the direction that Moana is heading speaks to me as a Samoan, as a Pacific Islander and as a rugby coach. It aligns with what I value and there's a feeling of home and familiarity. Do you want to just expand on those couple of things? Because I think it's like obviously you're jumping into a team which is a Pacific Island team with your heritage. What is it that does speak to you about the Moana team and its values at the moment?
Speaker 1:I remember when I spoke about that you asked me and I felt a really deep connection with Moana Pasweka and where they were heading, in terms of the people that were getting on board, the players that were getting on board and the trajectory of the team. I remember thinking back to 21 years ago now and I was fortunate enough to be part of the first Pacific Islanders rugby team that was put together. We played the Wallabies, the All Blacks and the Springboks and I remember at the time thinking this is the most unreal team I've ever been in like in terms of talent and skill, you know, just of the players, the gifted players that were in the team. And I remember at the end of it we had such an awesome time on and off the field and just the connections with the Tongan and the Fijian boys. So I remember thinking we all talked about like we were actually sick of beating each other up, let's go play some other people instead. And we talked about wouldn't it be awesome to have a team like this in Super Rugby? And this is 2004, when this team was put together, we all kind of that finished up. We tried it again a couple more times and both times awesome, awesome tours. We also knew I remember saying it at the time and thinking we're never going to see it in our lifetime. Hopefully one day, but we just don't think we'll see it in our lifetime. And then, when Moana Pasweka came along and was established for me that's what I meant by when I said there's a real feeling of home it felt like I'd done a full circle moment and I just felt blessed and grateful that I could come back around and still contribute to Pacific Island rugby and be able to serve as a coach.
Speaker 2:And what does it do well, Does it encompass? Is it a real good reflection inside the changing room of Pacific?
Speaker 1:Island culture. I think so and I also feel like it's organic in terms of the culture side of things, just us being us. There's no manufacturing of. We're going to do this, then we're going to do this because this is our culture. It's just okay. How do we start each day? We start it with our faith. We give thanks.
Speaker 2:Is it like by a prayer in the morning when you talk about it?
Speaker 1:So we sing a hymn and we say a prayer and that's our first connection point of the day.
Speaker 2:It's just like in a meeting room. You come in and someone leads the prayer every morning.
Speaker 1:Every morning, yeah, and again, it doesn't feel like it's manufactured, it doesn't feel like it's a chore or another meeting, it's just. This is how we grew up, and so it's just. We're all in, everyone's in Staff, the whole staff players. We connect with our prayer and then we can start our day. Wow, that's lovely, isn't it.
Speaker 2:Yes, players, we connect with our prayer and then we can start our day. Wow, that's lovely, isn't it? Yes, it's just the Bringing that slice of home to your working environment.
Speaker 1:Correct. So, again, it's just us being us, and it's also a nice reflection time as well. Understanding that we're grateful to be in the positions that we're in, which just allows, sets us up for the rest of the day.
Speaker 2:Just around that statement us being us. If you're coaching a team which is not a Pacific Island team but you have some Pacific Island players, is there a degree you talked about. The us being us is not something which is structured and formatted, it's just a little bit looser. Is that? Because that's what the home life on the islands is like? But then how do you bring that degree of looseness without being too loose in a team?
Speaker 1:I think the part with the prayer is it's not loose at all, if that makes sense. Yes, or the prayer's not loose. No, not at all. It's like church on Sunday when you go to church, it's time for church and there's no bucking around. So everyone understands and and it's a, it's a, it's a respect thing as well. You know, we, we, we, it's that belief, it's the belief, it's a value, it's a belief system, that, um, that we all believe in. So there's no looseness about it all.
Speaker 2:Your faith is your belief system. It's your first value here. Love it, love it. Yeah, that's cool and that's going quite strong at the moment, right, like that team's growing and growing with every game, right? I?
Speaker 1:believe so Again, as coaches, we always talk about creating these environments where we get to be the best group of ourselves. If you think back to your whole life, what is the environment you feel most safe in? And for a lot of people, it's home. It's home. So, in terms of our environment, this is our home. This is how we've agreed that we're going to live and the expectations and the values that we have of each other.
Speaker 2:The environment most people feel most safe is home. Mops. What a statement and like, especially for people that are predominantly away from their birth home, that makes it even more important for your culture and your team to be such that it's replicating as home as much as possible, I believe. So, yeah, I love that. Do you think that someone that is coaching a team which doesn't have a strong faith can bring that sort of tradition in in any?
Speaker 1:facet. It could be any kind of connection that brings everyone in. It could be we, just it could be the handshake, that's just. Yep, I see you, we're connected, let's get on with our day, and it doesn't have to be a massive thing or a big process. It's just something that one connects you to your players, connects the players to the players.
Speaker 2:Mate, just what you were talking about there, that it could be. Faith can be any sort of connection that brings people in. I remember doing it in Japan once. We had two Fijians in the Japanese team and we asked them fellas, would you be able to do a kava session after a game one day? And man, they were amazing and they really bought into it because it was a carver session after a game one day. And man, they were amazing and they really bought into it because it was a little bit of bringing a little bit of home life. They brought on a couple of their friends that were Fijian in the neighborhood and they put on, they dressed up and the Japanese players were blown away by the effort and the excitement that these two Fijians had getting to share a little bit of their culture and connecting with the wider team. It was just phenomenal. And after that the team just felt really tight, just after one carver session.
Speaker 1:It was beautiful to watch and, ben, to me that's been the best version of themselves, and, as a coach, you've given them the permission to be themselves, and that's what all these boys are often searching for is that if I'm allowed to be myself in this environment, then it is one step closer to home for them.
Speaker 2:Wow, mate, giving people permission to be themselves Mups, beautiful. Now, mate, I'm looking at the time here and I've got one more question for you, brother, before you get back and get into those Moana Pacific boys to be the best versions of themselves. And this is this Mops. What's one aspect of rugby, in any aspect, that you believe in, that you reckon your peers might disagree with? Wow, apart from grey beards, mate, grey beards are cool.
Speaker 1:I think grey beards are very cool, probably the fitness tests, I think. A bit like stats for me. They look good but they show everything. I've still yet to find a test that can really show a true reflection of what happens on the field. That's not to say I don't believe in them, because I think they're very important. It's more the. I want to go back to my faith here. Talk about Noah's Ark, and I'm sure when the animals were lining up, noah didn't say only the animals that can climb trees can go on the ark. Ooh yeah, there's different ways of measuring different things. Obviously, the science says what the science says, but I still think there's more.
Speaker 2:Well, mate, I definitely agree with you on that, man. I think there's a massive part around the motivations of people too, around getting more out of people, and some people don't perform well in tests but perform very well in games. And would you say as a massive stereotype that that would be the case for most Polynesian players, that they would perform better on field playing the game than they would in any sort of testing?
Speaker 1:Yes, I think in the past I would say yes, I think that's also changing. But then I just go back to Ben Ryan's speed testing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, yes, love it, mate, and I think it's a lovely way to finish today, brother, with talking about the Noah's Ark, reflecting on your faith aspect. And, mate, thank you for your time. You've had an amazing journey and I've enjoyed watching it, mate, the ups and downs, the good, the bads. It's been a wonderful career, mate. I was with you at the very start and it's lovely to still be here 20 years later, brother, chatting to you as a coach. As both as coaches now, Thanks for joining me on this podcast, brother.
Speaker 1:I appreciate that, Ben, and yeah, it's been a long journey. It's been awesome to see yourself and your journey as well, and here we are doing podcasts 20-odd-something years later. You're well made and I'm always following Pleasure mate.
Speaker 2:Champion. Here are my final three takeaways from a conversation with Salala Mapa Sua. Number one connect with the person before the player. Now, the example he gives is being able to connect with parents of players, whatever grade team you're coaching, because in Polynesian culture, family is not just a buzzword, it's actually the massively important part of life. There's often three to four generations living under one roof and to make sure that the parents are connected, just giving them that little bit of a chat, just involving them a little bit, even if it's just hello, talking to them before you talk to the player, is hugely honoring the culture of the Polynesian culture.
Speaker 2:Number two showing that you care. Now, there's a marvelous quote which says this no one cares about what you know until they know how much you care. Now, that is absolutely gold in Polynesian culture, because they are so connected, so integrated compared with western cultures. So seeing them for who they are, with one small chicken or one small conversation, can go such a long way, and the fact that you're care enough to ask, to care enough to understand where they're coming from really puts you, as the coach, in a great position to get the best out of your polynesian people.
Speaker 2:Number three understanding the cultural nuances mups talks about. A great one about eye contact and about being in a Polynesian culture, not looking a senior or someone potentially above you in the eye as a sign of respect rather than disrespect. And the more you can understand these subtle nuances, the better you're able to understand the deeper culture. And the moment you give permission for them to be themselves, to do these little things, you're taking one step closer to creating your team. And once you do that well, you create this amazing sense of belonging and you get the best out of everybody as people, not just players. Until next time, stay well.