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Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
James Marshall: The Power of Collaborative Coaching
From the heat of championship matches to the quiet moments of career transition, James Marshall's coaching journey offers a masterclass in modern rugby leadership. The former Hurricane turned Crusaders backs and attack coach reveals how authentic connection has become his coaching superpower, allowing him to build relationships that transcend the traditional coach-player dynamic.
At the heart of Marshall's approach lies a radical commitment to player empowerment. Rather than clinging to control, he embraces collaboration—gathering opinions from key players, challenging ideas constructively, and sometimes taking "a loss" on tactical decisions to build trust. This philosophy flips conventional coaching wisdom on its head, yet has proven instrumental in the Crusaders' continued success. His attack strategy meetings become think tanks where players aren't just executing game plans, but helping create them.
Perhaps most striking is Marshall's innovative approach to non-selected players. Where most environments breed resentment and disengagement, the Crusaders have transformed their "non-23" into a position of honor. Complete with captain selections, dedicated trainings, and year-end awards, this mindset shift creates positive energy where teams typically struggle most. "Everyone is just fizzing to be the non-23 captain for the week," Marshall explains, "because what an honor to lead that group against the Crusaders on a Thursday afternoon."
Marshall's dual life as podcast host (What A Lad) provides unique insights into player psychology that directly enhance his coaching. Through deep conversations with current and former athletes, he's gained profound appreciation for rugby careers' fragility and the human stories behind performance. This empathy translates to more meaningful interactions, especially during challenging moments like injuries or selection disappointments.
Whether you're coaching professionals or weekend warriors, Marshall's blend of technical knowledge, emotional intelligence and collaborative leadership offers valuable lessons for anyone seeking to build high-performance cultures where people genuinely thrive. Tune in for a conversation that might just transform how you think about coaching, leadership, and the power of authentic connection.
I feel like, in hindsight, last year I would have gone more of this year's approach where let them learn, let them grow, let them fail like sort of opened my eyes up to how challenging life after rugby is and how lucky I've been to get the pathway that I've had post-rugby Like the challenge is real and not many people have a smooth one. And he just sold it to the team like it was the most amazing thing, it was unstoppable. He was like I promise you we will 100% score. And I was just like I was amazed at how well he sold it, because I'm sitting in the back of the room like man, this is just, this is average.
Speaker 1:Those guys are the key. So the more they are invested into what we're doing, the better we're going to be. A lot of guys will say they want it really honest, but then sometimes you give it to them honest and they don't like it. Their honest is a little bit different to the real honest. Like I felt so sorry for him because everyone was into him. They're saying it's his record, it's the way he coaches, but man, he was doing such a good job for us and just he, he's so optimistic, he's like the most optimistic guy.
Speaker 2:so welcome to the coachingaching Culture Podcast. Today's guest is James Marshall. Huge track record, tasman Oroni Taranaki Hurricanes, where he won it in 2016,. Then proceeded to leave it and then come back a few years later. Huge stint with London Irish and then over to Japan with the Coca-Cola Red Sparks and a couple of tournaments from New Zealand Sevens along the way 12 years quite the journey professionally playing and then got the fastest coaching promotion you can get, working at Nelson College and the Marcos before getting the call from the Crusaders saying get up here and join this crew. And after you had a quick chat to your wife about the nomadic lifestyle, was back on, you moved to Canterbury and now we're speaking to James Marshall just after the Crusaders have won yet another super rugby campaign. Backs and attack coach. James Marshall. Welcome to the Coaching Culture Podcast. Welcome to the Coaching Culture Podcast.
Speaker 1:Mate best ever intro there. Oh, you've done well there. It was a long one too. I was waiting for you to sort of stumble, but you just kept going and you absolutely nailed it. But honor to be on, mate, loving your work it's my number one podcast at the moment. That's getting me to and from work. I just find so much bits of gold in there. So, enjoying it, and honoured to be on, mate.
Speaker 2:What a pleasure. And what was not said in the intro was your own podcast. What a Lad which is ripping up all over the show and our love and watching that too, mate, and we'll get to a little bit of that because I'm fascinated by your journey there.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But, mate, let's start off where it all starts off on this show. How do you define culture?
Speaker 1:Mate. What a question to start a podcast. I love everyone's different answers to this question too, because it's such a hard question to answer. But I guess culture for me is just how everyone in the environment acts on or off the field, whether they're by themselves or as a group. It's just that behavior of the individuals in that side and how they act as a group, and some are different to others. Obviously, I've been in a lot of different cultures, seeing different ways it works, and cultures can be good or bad. I think people often answer it well just around the good cultures, but there's very easy ways to have bad cultures as well. So it's a hard question to answer, but that's basically how I'd put it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and have you got any traits of good cultures?
Speaker 1:I think, teams who can pit the team first. When you've got a group of guys who can genuinely pit the team first, I think that is a massive, massive plus for a team culture. Easier said than done. I think it's something they do really well down here and I don't know how it formed or where it started, but I've seen it in the last three years just get passed down the line of guys who are so willing to help the other guys who aren't the guys who are starting or in their same position, willing to do anything to help those guys perform on Saturday, whereas I've been in teams before. You don't get that. You're named to start and the other guy is salty at you for the whole week and you can feel that.
Speaker 1:It's just that real negative um competition, whereas I feel like the positive competition we have, especially here at the crusaders, I've been so impressed with and I think it's been a massive part of why the team's been so successful for so long is is positive competition, a big foundation of crusaders yeah, I wouldn't say it's spoken about.
Speaker 1:It wouldn't be something that you say at the start of the year. You have to act like this. It's just from what I've seen, it's been guys who are the experienced guys living it and then everyone sort of watching it and saying, right, all right, that's how I act if I'm not selected or that's what I do, and whatever the situation is, and when you see people living it, it's so much more infectious or contagious than when it's just plastered up on the wall or the coach stands up at the start of the year and tells you this is what we're going to live by. But when you're seeing like the guys who everyone trusts and respects doing those things, so much more powerful than any sort of words can be yeah, and how did you find coming into the environment as a non-crusader, like a staunch hurricane?
Speaker 2:how did you find how you transitioned into that culture?
Speaker 1:yeah, I think it was slightly easy because I'd been working with a lot of the group at the Marco, the Tasman Marco for the previous two years, so I knew a lot of the crossover there. But even that I still messaged a few of the guys when Razor offered me the job. I remember messaging David Harvilli because I knew he was such a big, I guess, a player in the culture and such a leader, such an important figure in the group that I messaged him just to ask how he felt the group would feel me coming in. And I didn't want to come down. If the whole group didn't feel like I was the right fit or just from a player's perspective, how would it feel? You know a non-crusader coming in and I was genuine about that I genuinely wouldn't have gone down.
Speaker 1:You spoke about it earlier around my wife she was that was a tough conversation because I had promised her I wasn't going to go down the coaching route but I did. Once I got that phone call from Razor, it was the conversation that had to be readdressed. But then I did message Davey and I messaged a few of my old Hurricane teammates just to see how it would all sit with everyone. I was blown away. Everyone was so supportive and Davey was really encouraging about me being the right person for the job and gave me heaps of confidence to just come down here. And we had a pretty stacked coaching crew at the time, with Razor obviously head coach, basically the All Black coaching group. Now was what I walked into and I was just blown away with how open they were and basically just told me to be myself and don't try and coach like anyone else. Just do your little part in the wheel and we'll be sweet. And that was the case.
Speaker 2:That's radical. What do you think Razor saw in you Because you were still young in your coaching. What do you think he saw in you to pull trigger like that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I asked him that because I hadn't done enough coaching wise to um prove to anyone that I was a good, good enough coach. But, um, he's always prided himself on selection and that's what he said to me like the biggest probably 80% of his role is getting his selections right, whether it's players, um, management, um, other coaches, um, so he just relied on the good old-fashioned ring around. I think, um, I know he would have called Jason Holland, who I was with at the Hurricanes, and I actually, um, when I had my surgery in the COVID year, carlos Spencer left um mid-season, so I just had the surgery in the COVID year. Carlos Spencer left mid-season, so I just had the surgery and Jason Holland asked if I could take the backs for the rest of the year. I think there was about seven weeks left in the competition, so that season I'd gone from the playing room to the coaching room in basically a week later, so that was a real quick transition and it was a bit more slow.
Speaker 1:Oh, I didn't. People asked was it awkward? Probably wasn't as awkward as it seemed because I was.
Speaker 1:I felt like I was doing so much of the um, especially the backs coaching anyway, so, um, but that was a real quick transition and um loved it straight away um so yeah, just on the other, like razor would have called Andrew Goodman, who I was with at Tasman, and just a few people who you would have really trusted around their rugby IQ, and I think that's such a big part of coaching how you get coaching gigs, isn't it? It's like who you know, but they've got to obviously trust your rugby knowledge or your ability to be able to become a coach. You can't just know people and expect to be given the role, so they've got to trust you to do it as well.
Speaker 1:So I feel very lucky to have had the, I guess, pathway that I've had. But then I also know that these people have trusted me for a reason. So I'm back myself and back my coaching ability yeah, well, it's made.
Speaker 2:It certainly come true on that one, and I agree with you that razor doesn't get many misses wrong at all, coaching or playing wise um. But, mate, one thing that I really enjoyed about yourself you don't have to ask very far when you're just asking guys. You coach um about you. And this is a couple of quotes that I got. Like quoting about you forms genuine connections, has a aura about him and people are drawn to him. He makes people feel important. There are a couple of quotes from current crusader players in the mix at the moment and I reckon that's really powerful, mate. How much of coaching do you think is you know? That's the first thing those players said about you. How do you? Where do you think the balance is between your technical ability as a coach and that connection piece?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a great question. I've always really backed my rugby IQ, like my ability to read a game. I've always really backed my rugby IQ, like my ability to read a game. I've always really backed that. I've always loved the connection side, naturally as a player, and sometimes I feel like as a coach I can probably go down that I still feel like a player connection level. You know, a few guys have sort of warned me about that around. You've sort of got to get away from that if you can. But, um, I still just love connecting with the guys, as probably my favorite part of of the role is, you know, turning up having a bit of banter with the guys and, um, having those genuine connections with them all. So, um, yeah, as it's pretty humbling to hear someone speak like that. Yeah, it was some cool conversations, yeah.
Speaker 2:And what was the warning? What's the danger of being too social with the players, and particularly in that transition period from player to coaching, when you're in that hybrid role?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I haven't found it yet because I'm probably still a little bit too far that way, but I guess it's when you have to have those conversations. Can you still have that conversations or are you too much of a mate now? But I think there's still that line, like when you're in business time, it's business, you're talking footy, you're fully into it and you're having those conversations that need to be had. But then once you're away from it, you're mates and you have a good time while you can, because it's the beauty of sport is those connections, those times off the field, the beer in the changing rooms. I love all that side of it and it's so important to me. Yeah, I think it's so important to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's the real special bit about rugby too in general. Right that shared change room experience. You've just gone to battle with other people.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and how have you found the Crusaders, jimmy, like it's been an awesome year. You've just come off another victory, but the bit I'm interested in is the contrast between an underwhelming season and a hugely successful season, and have you got any learnings that you could share about the difference between the two?
Speaker 1:potentially it's a fascinating one. There's real learning. There is that there wasn't as much different between the two years as as everyone there was, and that's the reality of it. Rugby games are won by such small margins and I was trying to tell people this last year when we weren't far away and I genuinely believe that there was such small margins that made our season as bad as it was and it sort of multiplied. As you start losing those tight ones, you start losing that little bit of belief. But the culture was still so strong so I had so much confidence in that. We never I've never been in a team that lost so many games but was still so optimistic and positive going forward, where I know it can be very you know, quite infectious, or it can be very, you know, quite infectious, or it can be not quite as positive when you start losing and everyone starts backstabbing you know the coaches or the other players or all that sort of stuff. I never saw any of that and that came out really strong in the end of year, sort of feedback. That was still really strong.
Speaker 1:So, to get you know, another big part was we had some pretty influential players available this year who weren't last year. Yeah, leadership group, I think, are the most important puzzle, probably in terms of the coaching. To get right, we were missing probably eight of the nine guys last year, probably only one of them. Even that we were missing this year. So that plays a massive role when you're trying to get those games across the line. Back end of games. You know those last 15 minutes, crucial decisions, crucial moments. You got those real strong leadership guys on the field. You're winning more of those games than you're losing and I guess when you look at the numbers we won three games last year, lost plenty it doesn't quite show how close they were or some of the reasons why we were losing those games. So that was probably a big learning for me.
Speaker 1:There's not much in it.
Speaker 2:No, it's actually a good one to highlight, isn't it? You say there wasn't much difference between the seasons, but to Joe Public it seems like there's an enormous amount.
Speaker 1:Yeah, 100%. And Penn's copped it. I felt so sorry for him because everyone was into him. They're saying it's his record, it's the way he coaches, but man, he was doing such a good job for us and just it was he, he's so optimistic he's like the most optimistic guy so I've really felt from last year, but it was so rewarding to see him get the trophy this year and prove a lot of those doubters or haters wrong yeah, well, you said something lovely about him one of your interviews.
Speaker 2:You I'm really proud of the big man meaning Rob Penny that he didn't get the flowers he deserved, which I think is a great statement. Didn't get the flowers, but you actually said something which resonated with me is you said that he absorbed a lot and no one else had to absorb anything because he took it all himself. Is that a learning you've got from a great head coach that he shielded the rest from some of that stuff?
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, he took all the pressure Last year. I was expecting to get absolutely scrutinized, and same with all other four coaches who were underpins, and you know we're doing more of the rugby stuff than he is. So if there's anyone to really blame about the way we're playing, it's, it's us, it's not. It wasn't pens, but um he, he was obviously never going to say that and he just copped it and um yeah, I felt really bad and behind the scenes, um yeah, but yeah. So I'm so glad that he gets the reward, that he gets now, the flowers he gets now, yeah.
Speaker 2:I love that phrase the flowers. It's bloody awesome. You just talked about some of your other coaches. There, man, you've got Crusaders. Have a lovely way of bringing people through the ranks, guys like Ryan Crotty, matt Todd, who are ex-players. What is it about the environment that actually brings those guys through? They see potential. And how do they support coaches including yourself, coming through to just be the best versions of themselves because they do it so well?
Speaker 1:Yeah, firstly, the guys love the club. There is a genuine love for the club and there's so many hundred gamers up on the wall. Um, the guys you mentioned ryan karate, matt, todd, they they are just so passionate about this club and always have been so, and I think that comes back to that thing I said at the start, where they've seen guys from the early days who are just so passionate about it and it feeds throughout. They feed it on and they keep the old guys so present in today's content and all our theming and stuff. A lot of it comes back to those past players and the history of this club and what all that means. So there's a real love for the club in there.
Speaker 1:And in terms of how do they bring them through, angus Gardner is a massive help around the coaching. He'll sit on meetings especially. My first year gave me so much feedback around what I can do better or things I can sort of grow, because that was one of the things. When I came down, my contract was a two-year contract and to make that big move with a family and sort of commit to Christchurch. It was two years. It wasn't heaps of security, it was a little bit, but it wasn't heaps. And then I sort of talked to Angus Gardner about that and he said, well, we've never actually sacked a coach ever. And I was like, oh, far out.
Speaker 2:Is that right?
Speaker 1:We pride ourselves on growing our coaches, so that was something that just blew me away, and then last year was probably a good testament to that. Like most clubs in the world would have, probably well, they definitely would have sacked Rob Penny and they probably would have sacked the other four coaches with with them. So it goes to show that they are genuine about that. They invest in your growth as a coach and if they say, if your character's right, they can help you learn the coaching craft. There's so many different ways to grow as a coach, so they trust themselves to get you where you need to be.
Speaker 2:I love it, mate, because I do know that a lot of their talent ID for players is picking on character is a big principle in Crusaders, but obviously they pick on their coaches too. They pick good characters and then grow them, them, which is. Hopefully I live up to that well and that's a cool phrase, mate that they never sack the coach.
Speaker 1:I wouldn't think any professional organizations sporting wise could say that blew me away, but then I thought about it and a lot of the guys get an opportunity at higher honors, usually after three or four years. I think of the guys who have left over the last few years, like Brad Moores obviously came back but he went off to Scarletts and Andrew Goodman went to Leinster. Now the Lions, like all these guys who were before me Razor Tamati, allison, scott Hanson now all at the All Blacks, they've, they've all gone on to something they see to be bigger and better.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what is it? Because I know, like Crusaders have, that when players go to the Crusaders they have a higher chance of becoming an All Black because of the environment so good, it gets the best out of them. Is it the same rationale for coaches going to the Crusaders?
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm not sure, hopefully yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm not too sure that's a hard one.
Speaker 1:I don't even really know how coaching selection works when you get to progressions really Like I was lucky to get a phone call from Razor but I wouldn't really know how the next progression would work. But I guess because they've had so much success over the last especially what eight, nine years you're coaching in a side that's consistently winning, like that, I guess it's going to be good for your CV or people are going to want winners coaching their sides, I guess yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, what learnings have you had, mate around your coaching, particularly the softer skills stuff, which may have surprised you?
Speaker 1:Oh, that's a good question. I think one thing that is always pretty challenging is the conversations, especially around selection. I've obviously heard it a lot on my podcast around a couple of the big things that annoy players non-selection, injuries like two massive big red flags for a coach to really annoy a player, massive big red flags for a coach to really annoy a player. So always trying to get that conversation of non-selection right and I'm still I still find it a challenge.
Speaker 1:Like a lot of guys will say, they want it really honest, but then sometimes you give it to them honest and they don't like it yeah, their honest is a little bit different to the real honest and just getting that whole balancing, that whole balance of what feedback does he need, what feedback does he want, how can I make this guy grow without losing him? I want him to still strive to be the starting player, but I don't want to lie to him that, okay, you're behind Will Jordan. If you play well, you're going to be there. Because you're not, will Jordan's always going to be our fullback and thankfully I've got Johnny McNichol in that position, who's probably one of the most self-aware players I've coached, where he just understands all that stuff, but not everyone's on that same level. So the conversations you have around selection and stuff I always find interesting and still a bit of a challenge.
Speaker 2:How do you get better at those?
Speaker 1:Practice feedback, I guess.
Speaker 1:Do some shit ones guess, um, some shit ones. Oh, mate, there's. There's some people who, um, put the flat back out really quickly, and I guess that they're the ones who you find quite challenging, like you try and give feedback and get real defensive on it, like wasn't me, it was, I got a bad call, it was his fault, you know. Those are the ones where you're like, okay, okay, I'm really struggling to help you grow here. Like I'm not really sure where to take this, because every time I've tried you're not really keen on it. So I don't know. It's probably a good question for you, mate.
Speaker 2:Mate, just have a crack. I actually have a good one, because Jamie Joseph told me this one. He called it the smack across the face, and it was actually a good one. He said, instead of being wishy-washy from the outset around stuff, you smack a player with exactly what the issue is. So there's no grey. The principle is you're not starting this weekend, it's just bang straight out. Is you're not starting this weekend, it's just bang straight out. You're not edging around it at all and I and I, and then you can give a little bit of hope, but nothing too much, because the player, if you're gray and you say, oh look, you've been training really well, we like what you're doing, but you're not going to start this weekend the player only, generally only hears when he goes back to the team he goes yeah well, they said I'm training really well, I'm doing everything right. I don't really know why I'm not starting.
Speaker 2:And that can potentially be in the wrong environments. That can potentially be a downward spiral of poison going through the change room, whereas if you just say, look, mate, you're not starting this weekend, now, if you want to start, this might be the thing you have to do. And then it's very clear and he goes back to the changing room why aren't you playing? Oh, I just have to get my tackle right and I like that analogy and Jamie Joseph's very good at the smack in the face approach. I've heard plenty of those.
Speaker 1:But I thought it was lovely, mate. It's lovely, it's a good point because I guess it's the follow-up conversation. Like you say, once you have that first conversation, often they don't hear much else, especially once you hit them early with the news. Like what else have they actually heard? So a follow-up conversation. And we've been lucky enough to have Ryan Crotty involved this year whose role was to look after the non-23 and keep those guys happy and he gave them so much love, had all the conversations, the feedback. He just got such good reviews at the end of the year just because guys were just blown away with how much love they were getting, because you don't often get it when you're not selected. So guys felt really grateful to be especially working with someone like that in that non-23 sessions and, um, you know the the big training days where you're training as the opposition, like all these things.
Speaker 2:He did so well so I thought there was a massive improvement for the group around that role well, I actually think that's a great one for coaches of all um teams to get right and there's actually I, some of your players. You might have done this in your first year there, where you had that non-23 at times and there was a bit of feedback about the way you hyped up the non-23. And there was an example given about there must have been playing the Hurricanes and you did a name draw for who was who and I just thought that was a cool concept, like today, like pulled out of that, you will be Artie Sevier and you will do this and this and this and just created a real buzz and made people feeling really important about. Oh right, which probably goes back into the ethos of the Crusaders as team first and all that stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we do massive team namings there now. So just like the boys get on the big screen, like the player will roll out, you will be this player, you're number one, you name your captain and it's just a big. Everyone is just fizzing to be the non-23 captain for the week, because what an honour to lead that group against the Crusaders on a Thursday afternoon. Just things dreams are made of.
Speaker 2:Wow, mate. So that's a massive flip, that's a massive mindset shift, I'd say, for most professional teams where you've actually turned that dynamic on his head right yeah, massively.
Speaker 1:I. I remember my first that was my first role at tasman as well like, um, when I, when I first moved down there, I was, I signed as a player for one dollar to get the incentives and I just messaged goody I was like, oh, is there anything I could do to help out? And he just said, oh, do the non-23. It would be a great way to sort of get started into coaching. And that was probably the one thing I noticed was how can we make these guys, how can we bring energy to them, because they're obviously so gutted they're not playing. How can we bring energy to that group or something to get them excited about? And it started with little team namings but it's just sort of gone on. I've watched it grow the last sort of four years and come down to the Crusaders as well, and it's pretty cool. Now the guys all absolutely love it.
Speaker 1:And this year they did like a Dallium medal. So you got your 3-2-1's best Thursday training. So the guy of the year, the non 23 player of the year, was awarded and just something for these guys to you know, look forward to like their Thursday training's their game day for the week. The better they train, the better we play, and that was massive notice. I noticed that massively this year. The better they train, the better we play, and that was massive notice. I noticed that massively this year. Just, we were training against a better side Because we had more available players. That meant the depth of the non-23 side was like we had some internationals in that non-23. Like it was quality training.
Speaker 2:Mate. I think that's incredible. I just think it's flipping the mindset of the non-selected and flipping it into a really positive thing. I think generally that's just you can't go wrong if you're getting that sort of buy-in right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one thing I used to try and do as a player was work out who I am going to be that week. So if I was at 10 not playing, if it's Quade Cooper or whoever it is, what does Quade Cooper do really well? And I'm going to try and do this all week and see if I can do something that Quade Cooper does and add it to my game. If I can, then great. If I can't, next week I get to be um stephen donald or whoever it is. This week I'm gonna do seven show and goes.
Speaker 1:Where does it work for me? Um, no, it doesn't. Okay. Next week I get to be someone else. So, instead of seeing your non-selection as a oh, why me? Why can't I make the team Like, look at it as man, this is an opportunity to grow my game. Try to be someone else and the team gets the right player that they're going to be preparing for and you get to experience being a different player and maybe potentially picking up one or two skills that you hadn't thought you could do or you wouldn't usually try.
Speaker 2:Love. That Do you have any issues with? Have you had some where a couple of players have got the pit in the culture? Yeah, How'd you deal with that?
Speaker 1:Usually it's. We're in positional, specific stuff. So if there's, if there's a issue, I would talk to an outside back and if we were struggling, then the big man, rob Penny, would take over if it was too hard, without going into too much detail, like there's obviously guys.
Speaker 1:There's a few guys this year who I was probably one in particular who missed a lot of trainings and once he wasn't named, sort of tapped out a little bit, which was so obvious in the culture, because it just doesn't often happen, you don't often see it, so it was quite a unique experience for the group. I guess it's just seeing it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's fascinating. Well, it's sort of probably a rare culture that it's only one. I'd say most professional teams, you'd have a good chunk doing that and it would be a constant fight to not let it spread further.
Speaker 1:That's stopping the spread. That's always the one.
Speaker 2:And it does spread. That sort of stuff does spread pretty quick in teams, doesn't it? You would have had that experience from your big array of experiences. Have you had any cultures from Italy to New Zealand, to Japan, where things have spread quickly and killed the mood?
Speaker 1:Well, london Irish was an interesting one because I went when I signed there in the premiership. By the time I got there we were in the championship. Tom Coventry and the guys who had signed me had all left by the time I got there. We were in the championship. Tom Coventry and the guys who had signed me had all left by the time I'd got there. So by the sounds of it, that spread like wildfire by the time I got there. I got there as the sort of ashes were still simmering and there'd been a little bit of a clean out. But I heard stories.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you got signed by the coaches. That all got moved on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the only one who was still there was Clark Laidlaw by the time I got there, so I was grateful to still have him there. Yeah, it sounded like it had been one of those environments where the negativity had just spiraled and got out of control.
Speaker 2:Love it. What have you picked up from those different experiences from a culture perspective, anything you've dragged back to your coaching now?
Speaker 1:I've always tried to just look at it from a point of view where this is like watching other coaches work. Did I enjoy that? Did it work for me, yes or no, and take little bits from everyone. Some guys do some awesome coaching, very different to how I'd coach, but it really worked for them, and I think that's probably the key to coaching. There's so many different ways to do it. I think it's just owning it in your own style, making sure you're authentic in who you are. One person I always remember Brendan Venter. I don't know much about Brendan Venter, but South African, who was coming in like once one week, every sort of two months, just to help us out, and man, his style was just so unique. He had everyone on the edge of their seats and, like his rugby, iq was great, but some of the stuff he'd come up with it was nothing special, like I remember this move that he had.
Speaker 2:I thought you were going to tell an amazing story about a move, but nothing special, right?
Speaker 1:He called it the catapult, where you'd send basically three pods around the corner, and he just sold it to the team like it was the most amazing thing. It was unstoppable. He was like I promise you we will 100% score every time if we do this move right. And I was just like I was amazed at how well he sold it, because I'm sitting in the back of the room like man, this is just, this is average.
Speaker 1:This is just the same way you play this is the same way you play there, everyone does, and I was just like, but everyone sort of bought into it and it sort of blew me away with man, it doesn't actually matter what you're selling, if you can sell it and get everyone on board. Funnily enough, the first time we ran it we scored off it. We were in the championship and we won a lot of those games by quite big margins. But it definitely wasn't as successful when we went back up to the premiership the next year. But it was just funny watching that whole week of the sell and um, the buy-in and then the execution of it. I was just like man that's. That's pretty cool in terms of it's not actually what you do.
Speaker 1:Sometimes it's just the buying that you get.
Speaker 2:Not what you do, it's the buying you get.
Speaker 1:Oh, there's the quote.
Speaker 2:There's the quote, which is very true, though right, because, like, at the end of the day, rugby is super simple and no one's doing anything particularly different to anybody else right. It's sometimes just how well you do it together maximizes how good it goes 100%.
Speaker 1:I think it's the buy-in. I'd probably say I coach, probably a little bit uniquely compared to most people. I just love buy-in from the group. I love opinions from everyone. I have quite a big strategy group attack strategy group. I love people sharing their opinions attack strategy group I love people sharing their opinions.
Speaker 1:I'm on the phone a lot Sunday afternoon evening talking to all the guys who have different opinions, who are sort of preparing me for the meeting the next day, and I just love it. I just love the more opinions we can get and if we can all come together and settle on one thing as a group then the better. Like I love it when players are the ones coming up with the stuff, because they drive it. When when it's theirs, they drive it so much more than when I tell them to do something. They've seen it, they believe it, they, they, they're invested in it. So I try and get as much stuff from the players as possible, which was a little bit different to how the Crusaders were working when I first got here. So watching that transition over the last mainly the six months, but even a little bit the year before 12 months maybe has been quite cool and I've enjoyed seeing it from the group Love it, so you love the buy-in and enjoyed seeing it from the group Love it.
Speaker 2:So you love the buy-in and the more opinions the better. Now, from a traditional coach, that might be daunting to get more opinions. How have you addressed that? As you've gone, have you found comfort with lots of different opinions?
Speaker 1:Yeah, to be fair, it's probably been like the right amount. Like the group size is probably what 10? And there's probably, realistically, there's 5 big opinions in the group and there's probably 5 guys who are sitting in the back learning a little bit. But those 5 big opinions are so important to how we run our game. It's your Will Jordans, it's your David Harvillies, your Game Drivers 9 and 10. Those guys are the key. So the more they are invested into what we're doing, the better we're going to be, because they understand it better and I definitely get caught sometimes having potentially too much, or how I shut down.
Speaker 1:An opinion is probably still one that you have to get right. Like, probably didn't nail it a couple of times this year. Still, if someone gives you a good idea but we've either got too much already or it just doesn't quite fit for this week, it might be one for later down the track. How you manage those sort of conversations. A great idea, but, um, we're not going to go with it this year, but yeah, nah and you're not so idea, but it's not yeah.
Speaker 1:So it's still challenging and so, and sometimes the other challenge I get is when a player's really passionate about something but I'm not seeing, I don't think it's going to work, and that's probably one where sometimes I just run with it to give them the confidence that, man, I'm trusting them here, but potentially taking a loss now and again, just to give them the, I guess, confidence that I'm going to trust them and I'll challenge them. I'll challenge them hard on it, especially if I don't believe in it, but if we've all committed to it, sometimes I have to be the one that just has to disagree and commit, and sometimes that can be quite hard. Maybe I could have come in a couple of times this year where I let something go which I still think. Man, that was dumb to let that one go. But I think it's just the beauty of it. I just love seeing the players growth in their mindset and just the way they see the game. I think you get a lot of joy out of it.
Speaker 2:I love that, mate. It's a. It's a cool one to hear that you're it. I love that, mate. It's a cool one to hear that you're doing, because I think that is quite different getting that amount of feedback and essentially taking one for the team, for the bigger win you're going to have there right the building, the trust, the confidence that the coach will listen to what I have to say. My opinion's valid. It's important to let some go through right, just to show that you're open.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think so and to be fair, it helps. I've got some really good IQ in the room, which we probably didn't have last year. So even that was a little bit of a balancing act. I was probably a little bit more prescriptive last year.
Speaker 2:Oh it's evolved a bit, has it, with senior players coming back?
Speaker 1:Probably due to the IQ of the room as well, but a little bit I feel like in hindsight. Last year I would have gone more of this year's approach where let them learn, let them grow, let them fail and let's try and do this together. I've probably, once we started losing a little bit, I got a little bit. Okay, I need to take over a little bit here. We probably haven't got the rugby IQ that we need to be winning games. We need to. I want to be on top of this, but probably just didn't trust my process well enough. But all great learnings.
Speaker 2:Mate, isn't it Super learning? It's like children, right Like you have a little bit more control when they're younger, but once they get to teenage years, you've got to start going righto. Well, we'll see how that goes, that's not great news for me.
Speaker 1:I've got no control at the moment. And they're young.
Speaker 2:Well, mate, just show you're listening, and then, as long as they're coming to you with the odd question, then that's the win, mate.
Speaker 1:That's it.
Speaker 2:Mate, and when we're talking about opinions, you are running an amazing podcast called the Waterlad Podcast. I'm really intrigued because you interview some fantastic rugby minds and a lot of them are actually retired from the game as well and I'd love to know what you've learned from some of those conversations and whether it's helped your coaching and your outlook on treating people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I definitely think it does, like weekly, almost to the point. Like every conversation I have, I'll always write down one key learning that I had from each episode. I've got a little coaching journal that I'm keeping and I'll just write down one thing that I took from that episode that I think might be something to be important to remember when I reflect on it, because there's so many bits of gold in a conversation. I'm like you, mate, I love having the convos. You see the points in their career where guys either crumble or strive. Really Not everyone's gone on to become the All Blacks Lucky enough to interview a lot of All Blacks but there's also the guys.
Speaker 1:Robbie Flynn's a great example, who I re-released quite recently. A great example who I re-released quite recently, but someone who was arguably one of the most talented players in his age group and then just blew every chance he got. But then you hear around the upbringing and you hear what he went through and why he was like that. It all makes sense and I guess that's the important part of it. Everyone has their own story. I think, as a coach, understanding the player's story is important.
Speaker 1:I try and get guys on the podcast, especially new ones, into the environment. I did it with Cole Preston this year and learned so much about him around his training habits, how he got into this um, why he's, why he pushes himself so hard every day. It's just, I find it so fascinating to um have these conversations and it's hard. It's hard to do without a podcast. I think like you can go have a coffee with someone but there's so many distractions. You know you someone's phone will go off off, or there's other people come into the cafe, they have conversation, all these different things. But when you're in a podcast it's just you, usually your headphones and the guy and you're just listening and you're just fully into this conversation where guys are more comfortable, I guess, answering questions you wouldn't really ask them normally as well. I don't know. It's just something where guys just go into a zone and you come out an hour or hour and a half later and you've done something pretty cool.
Speaker 2:It's really cool, mate. Some of what comes out is phenomenal, and do you think it has helped shape your conversations around the rugby stuff?
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely, and I think sort of touched on that earlier around like the non-selection thing.
Speaker 1:Injuries is probably another one where I think as a coach sometimes you can be so busy that the injured guys can get pushed to the side a little bit, but making sure you're in contact with them it means so much to them when they're left to the side to have a conversation with a coach or someone to check in see how they're going.
Speaker 1:Those little bits which you can often take for granted actually are really important. I remember a conversation in the Taha Kimara episode where I had him on and he'd ruptured his intestines or something playing the game and random freak injury and he just mentioned that a little conversation with myself around how he can grow his rugby IQ while he's injured could be massive and if he needs anything from me. And I didn't really think much of that conversation. But then hearing him say how much that conversation helped him or gave him something to look forward to or a purpose while he was injured, I was like man, we can actually have such a big influence on these guys when they're injured. Man, we can actually have such a big influence on these guys when they're injured and it might not take much, but don't take it for granted how important you are at any point for these guys. They look up to you. They want to, I guess, impress you because you're their coach.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the conversations you can have can be quite powerful I guess you and you're seeing it from the other end at the, because some people have some pretty hard, hard stories to hear, right. So you're hearing, like some of the extreme cases, right, like people losing it all post or don't don't do it well, so you're having some really, yeah, emotional stories coming out just through good talking, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the post-rugby one's always a real tough one too. It sort of opened my eyes up to how challenging life after rugby is and how lucky I've been to get the pathway that I've had post-rugby. Like the challenge is real and not many people have a smooth one, which I understand. Like it's such a big shift. Guys are gone from playing professional rugby for sometimes 12, 13 years straight out of school, professional rugby for sometimes 12, 13 years straight out of school, and then it just stops. And the money that's always one thing. Like if you haven't set yourself up financially, that becomes a whole lot harder, a whole lot more stressful.
Speaker 1:Relationships are tested and it can be really challenging. The other one's the mates tested and it can be really challenging. The other ones the mates like um, yeah, you basically got your 20 or 30 best mates that you go to, you go get to have fun with every day, and then you stop and it's shit, where are my mates? Like yeah, you feel uncomfortable to message the players because they're all still doing their thing and you're just out there, you know, in your own little world now, and you just feel like so isolated or lonely. Um, so those are a couple of real key ones for me. Like guys don't often miss the game, they miss that side of it the changing rooms, the friendships, the money. Some of the money helps.
Speaker 2:Money does help, right yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a real challenge and it's been quite cool hearing that and, I guess, for young players to hear it too. I love it when I get a message from someone just saying man, that really has changed the way I look at my rugby career, or something like that. Those little messages I get are just gold for me, make me want to keep doing it, keep trying to help people and, yeah, keep doing it.
Speaker 2:Well, it feels like it's making you a better person, mate. You're just bringing that little bit more empathy and understanding. That backstory is is massive and I agree with you, man, the challenge is real and it's it's hard one for some. If you know, if you're not in it, it's hard to see where the challenge is. It is, um, when people see professional rugby players, there's a illusion up there times.
Speaker 1:So for you to bring that together, yeah, and be able to be empathetic as a coach, I reckon it's a really powerful thing you've got yeah, I, I think, like I remember that when I first came down here I was I asked if I'd still be able to do my podcast and it was a bit it was a bit like I guess why not?
Speaker 1:and then I heard I've spoken to Colin Mainsbridge around. He was hit up quite early around. Why are you letting him podcast? He's supposed to be coaching. You know like he was challenged a few times on it but his answer was great.
Speaker 1:He just said I think it's helping him become a better coach he's getting gold with bits of information whenever he's having these conversations and the fact that they're recorded and sent to. No one would care if Razor went and caught up with another coach and had a coffee for an hour, but if you catch up and record it and send it out to the world, then now it's just something that shouldn't be done.
Speaker 1:You know it's funny that we're just probably and it was something especially last year I really felt like I was going to cop it last year around the podcast, like, oh, spending too much time on the podcast, not worrying about coaching. You know that thing that people love to do when someone's got something outside of their I guess, something that they're doing outside of the game. So you see it with players in particular, and that's why I didn't want to start a podcast before I finished, because I was always nervous that that was going to be the call You're spending too much time on a podcast, you're not worrying about playing. But no, I didn't copy any of it. All the feedback I've had has been great and people just want me to keep doing it. So yeah very grateful.
Speaker 2:That's bloody good, mate. I love the rationale. I've got a little line here that you said partly why you started it is it gives you better access to the player of what they're really like, and people are afraid often to be themselves. I think the more players can be themselves, the better the game is. The more engaged everyone is, the more engaged everyone is and I reckon you bang on with that line around what I've seen from players Once you come out like they're coming out on your podcast, you're actually making a better person. They're in touch with that side of themselves and sometimes rugby particularly, you don't feel like you can be that way, and modern rugby and modern people are definitely changing on their front. They're actually opening up from the often negative, stoic image of days gone by right yeah, massively.
Speaker 1:And that is 100% why I started it, because you know I'd be in the changing rooms, I'd be having such a good laugh with a couple of the players. You're like, man, this guy's such a character, he's funny, he's such a good dude, all the same. And then you'd go see them on the news or whatever and they're like, oh, what the hell, who is that guy? He is cliche after cliche. He is boring. Why are we like that? It used to really frustrate me, but you could understand why. Because guys were just the media were just taking the piss, I reckon for a while, where they'd take stuff out of context and blow things up for articles. I didn't think it ever needed to be like that. Guys give them, I guess, a bit of safety, which I've always tried to do. I've always said if you want anything taken out at the end of it, I can take it out, Like, this is not a stitch-up. I've never tried to do the clickbait.
Speaker 1:I know there's been chances in my podcast journey where I could have completely blown up some big articles. But I've always said I'd rather have the trust in my guests than any numbers in the game. I had to write to rugby pass, actually quite early because I was just making articles that are articles of some of my um guests. I'd get on and I remember I had Will Jordan on and he's like man, 10 articles from that one podcast, that's that's pretty niggly. And I was like, yeah, that is niggly. And I knew that if that was the case and guys wouldn't be able to open up when they come on.
Speaker 1:So I had to message them and say, hey, even though that was a really good promotion for me going on Rugby Pass going to everyone, that episode was downloaded heaps but I knew that's never where I wanted to go. So I had to message them no more please. And they've actually been really good since.
Speaker 2:Isn't it amazing and this is probably a cool thing to state is, because you're doing this external stuff to rugby, you're actually having to deal with all this other stuff in life around, like that, for example, which makes you a more rounded person, which will definitely make you a more rounded coach in life, and if you're trying to coach more than just a rugby player trying to grow a human, it's got to be helpful, right Like it's got to be something that coaches almost have to do is have something else, not just the rugby. You know 110% rugby every day, all day. That's it. I live and breathe it. What you're doing is you're having this whole other life to you which you're able to bring and, you know, actually help players on other facets.
Speaker 1:I think it's awesome, mate yeah, I often thought about that because I I look at coaches without kids or something I'm like man, they've just got so much time, they must, must be awesome.
Speaker 1:But then I'm look, I'm like what you say, like the balance of coming home to four kids and juggling that and then the podcast on the side.
Speaker 1:It's like I know I've got zero spare time, but I love it. I love all aspects of it and I love the juggle and the fact that I have these, this podcast, in background. I think takes a little bit of pressure off myself. As a coach, I'd be comfortable that if I was sacked tomorrow that I wouldn't have to go, I wouldn't have to stress, I could go full-time into podcasting. I've always tried to keep that chipping away in the background so that if I do get sacked at some point or coaching's finished, so that if I do get sacked at some point or coaching's finished, I'm not held ransom to having to go to France or Japan to keep earning a living and have to have another conversation with my wife that we're moving again. So I just keep chipping away at the background so that when that time comes which it will come at some point I don't have to move if I don't want to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's lovely man. I certainly know this in the professional world too. If you've got the means to not be reliant on the job, that you can actually always coach the way you want to coach it, not just have to change and mould because you're worried about keeping a job.
Speaker 2:There's a lot in that isn't there and like it's a strain you don't need because it potentially will mould you as a person to something you may or may not want to be, but what you're doing gives you that flexibility to just mate. This is the way I want to coach. I can go 100% on this because I've got this small safety net in behind. Yeah, massively Love it, mate. It's got to that time we ask. It's been a pleasure, it's been really insightful. Actually, jimmy Loved it. But we've got this last question which we've been running. We've been bookending this podcast with the same questions, mate, because I enjoy it and it makes my question line easy.
Speaker 1:But the questions this way. I know all about that, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but there's a really intriguing one, and it's just this what belief do you believe in around rugby? Any aspect that you reckon your peers would disagree with?
Speaker 1:My peers would disagree with, I'd probably go back to that. Collaboration is the key part. I just I really believe in that. I know not everyone does and that's that's fine, but I'm just really, I really strongly believe that if you can grow the players and grow their understanding and help them, not only will they become better players they'll like that year or in that game, but I think in their future and I hope that a lot of the players that I coach go on to become coaches or just because they find that passion.
Speaker 1:And I remember hearing someone I can't remember who it was, but they were speaking around Wayne Smith, giving them the love for the game and that's why so many of that Crusaders era became coaches, like the Mark Hammett, leo McDonald, razor, aaron, major, tabai, mattson all those guys were in that sort of era and there's heaps more Toblak. I know there's plenty more as well, but that whole sort of when he said that I looked back at that team and I was like man, there's like 12 professional coaches that have just looked back at that team.
Speaker 1:I was like man, there's like 12 professional coaches that have just come out of that and there must have been something in that and it sort of made me think like, as a coach, I'd love to also be like that and inspire guys to learn more about the game and just grow their love for the I guess, the detail of the game in all aspects, so that they can enjoy it more while they're playing and then post it, be able to pass it on to the next generation or whatever they choose, but something like the collaboration being a big part of it.
Speaker 1:Why do you reckon your peers would disagree with that, or potentially a lot of coaches would, I think probably that control thing, probably that little bit that I had last year where, because you're next on the line, you want to have that say. So putting it out to the group can sometimes feel really uncomfortable because you're putting your control on someone else's idea potentially, which would freak a lot out. And I think it's the importance of how you get to where you get to. So the conversations, the challenges to and fro and finding that real sweet spot, but, like I said, you're not going to get there every time, but picking your battles on which ones you aren't going to give up on or which ones you do. I've had coaches sit in on some of my Strat meetings and that was probably the feedback they gave me. Probably gave too much to the players. I was like great, that's perfect.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's cool that you said that to the feedback.
Speaker 1:That's what I really want, so I'm glad it's working.
Speaker 2:Mate, that's part of your authentic self. Jim, and certainly from the players that I talked to about yourself prior to this, that was definitely the sentiment that you coach with and it's lovely to hear that you're saying that's really purposeful. It's great to hear, mate.
Speaker 1:Mate appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Hey, jimmy, thank you very much for coming on the show. I just want to sign off here with my three big takeaways that I've got from this conversation, um, and they are this, mate. Number one um, as a coach, understanding that the players have a backstory, and I really think, hearing your stories, your secondary role around the podcast has actually giving you an insight into players' backstories and you're really aware of it and understand that the challenge is real that rugby players face In fact, all sports people face it's not just what you see on TV. And to understand that, as a coach, that every player has a backstory really opens up a whole empathetic and a different side to your coaching, which I love. Number two I love that thing you just talked about there about collaboration is the key, and I just love it, mate, how you love the buy-in. You get opinions and the more opinions the better, and that kind of concept around that. You're giving players something more. You're potentially inspiring them to grow their love of the detail around the game and I think when you actually flick forward into the future and you think about what you're giving the players by involving them, it's bloody special, mate, and it's something that all coaches can really draw a lot out of. It's awesome.
Speaker 2:And number three, mate, I loved this whole flipping the mindset of non-selection. I reckon this is something really unique and something which all coaches can do, given a little bit of thought. Turning it on the head around it doesn't have to be a disappointing thing, even though you will be disappointed. But how to quickly flip the script and love what you talked about, giving them a little opportunity, a little thing around. Try something different. Try be Artie Sevier, try be Bowden Barrett, try be Marcus Smith this week. See how it fits, see how it works. And I think it's a cool thing that all coaches can test out in their own environments, because they'll always be players, not picked. James Marshall, what a pleasure to have you on the Coaching Culture Podcast.
Speaker 1:Hey, that was great retention. By the way, that was incredible how you've remembered all that and taken notes during it. And yeah, fair play. That is impressive. An absolute honor to be on, mate. Like I said, massive fan of your work, so a pleasure. Hopefully someone got something out of it.
Speaker 2:They definitely would have, mate. Enjoy the off season. Get those kids to bed. They will have been reading through the roof by now.
Speaker 1:Good, solid hour of reading.
Speaker 2:yeah, Sustained silent reading that's what we used to call it.