.png)
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Ryan Schultz: The Path From Digging Holes to Elite Rugby Coaching
Ever wonder how a guy who started his working life digging holes transformed into a rising star in rugby coaching? Ryan Schultz's journey from manual laborer to head coach at Canberra Vikings reveals the gritty reality behind professional coaching success.
In this illuminating conversation with host Ben Herring, Ryan peels back the curtain on his coaching philosophy built around three core pillars: connection, development, and performance. He candidly shares how his early experiences – from pumping up footballs at his old school to coaching cricket teams – shaped his unique approach to leadership and culture-building in rugby.
What sets this episode apart is Ryan's refreshing honesty about navigating the pressure of coaching at a prestigious club with expectations of immediate success. "I did struggle with that at times," he admits, "wanting to make sure I was achieving for the club." His innovative solution to club unity – creating "Valhalla," a dedicated social space where players from all levels could connect – demonstrates how thoughtful leadership extends beyond training sessions and game plans.
Perhaps most thought-provoking is Ryan's controversial belief that "maybe the scoreboard doesn't matter." This perspective challenges conventional coaching wisdom while emphasizing the profound impact coaches can have on players' lives beyond rugby. His approach to stakeholder management – whether dealing with parents in school rugby or managing a team with 13 different nationalities – offers valuable lessons for leaders in any field.
Whether you're a coach seeking fresh perspectives, a player curious about leadership development, or simply fascinated by the human elements of sports culture, this episode delivers remarkable insights from someone who truly understands the transformative power of authentic connection. Listen now to discover how digging holes prepared Ryan for coaching excellence – and what that might mean for your own leadership journey.
To be honest, I just kill them with information. That's what I've done in the past. Brothers is a very proud long-history club. When I came in, there was this consistent terminology that was already there. I did struggle with that at times in terms of wanting to make sure I was achieving for the club, Especially with club footy. People have earned the right to have an opinion. The reality is there's a lot of pressure with any level of coaching because you are dealing with people and I think the higher you get, potentially, the more pressure that comes with it.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's episode is with Ryan Schultz. Ryan is a coach who is on the rise. He's currently head coach and a whole lot of other things at the Canberra Vikings rugby club. Having retired early from playing through concussion in his early 20s, he started up his rugby with schools like Churchy and St Joseph's in Brisbane, where he did pretty much everything that he could do sporting-wise and administration-wise. After leaving school, he went to the legendary Brothers Club in Brisbane where he was the director of rugby and head coach. Now I've been lucky enough to follow Ryan whilst he's been at the Vikings and it's clear to see he is a coach that's really on the rise and the next level beckons. Here's his insights. Welcome to the park, mate. What a pleasure to have you here in Sydney.
Speaker 1:Beautiful Sydney mate Just talking about how eclectic the people are here and fun it has been.
Speaker 2:Mate. Well, you get to come here, sit in the park and chew the fat about some rugby stuff.
Speaker 1:I will.
Speaker 2:After a hamburger at the pub. That's how we roll. That's it, righto, mate. Hey, I think it is important to just recap with a bit of your background and particularly around your journey through rugby, because I think it's a cool story You've come through, started around 20, strayed into it through schools and just progressed all the way to sort of professional rugby where you're at now. So would you be able to just give us a little bit of background on your journey as such?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think, like most coaches, you start as wannabe players and I always loved the game of rugby, played it. Yeah, probably wasn't good enough or big enough to get where I wanted to go, but I think that love of sport enabled me to go back to my old school and start in the sports department there. So I was literally building cricket kits and pumping up footies and I actually ran and created a strength and conditioning program. Did you want to go back to your school? No, I think, like so I'd done a couple of years of digging holes and mulching gardens and that, and I knew there wasn't a future in that. So, um, yeah, it sort of coincided with I did a diploma of fitness because you know I was training for footy and um, that, yeah, led me to the opportunity at my old school some pets at shorncliffe um, yeah, and, as I said, sort of enabled me to get into the sports department.
Speaker 1:Help the director of sport out. I had a little gym. I wanted to start a program so, and then that sort of evolved to, you know, coaching different sports. I then sort of went into a coaching administrator role and that evolved into like a development and performance role and by the time I realized I wasn't good enough to play footy at a high level.
Speaker 2:What age was that?
Speaker 1:I actually stopped playing because of the concussions. But yeah, I probably could have kept playing if I was a professional, but I wasn't Never get there. Yeah, just thought I'd invest in working and yeah, like, coached cricket rugby track and field, ran those programs, created programs, aligned philosophies through different age groups and built curriculums and um, yeah, I was probably pretty poor at it at the start and you keep doing it and you get better at it. Um, and then obviously I love rugby, so sort of started to focus more on that coaching side of it and um, yeah, that sort of evolved into different roles within the Brothers Rugby Club First 15 roles, reds Academy under 18 sort of area and then moved into Churchy First 15. Now I'm at Tuggeran Vikings in Canberra.
Speaker 2:It's amazing. It's a really cool story in that you had had to start from the very start. Digging holes to start, was that certainly? Uh, prepares you for what some would say the grind like you get if you, yeah, when you do a thing like that. You really appreciate when you get the opportunity to be playing a game for a living right yeah, is that was that particularly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, certainly I think, um, you know you're digging, digging holes or or building stuff five days a week, but then you're also trying to train on the side. It's a pretty hard shift and I think that also gives you some appreciation when you're coaching as well, of the understanding of your players and that might be part of their journey. You sort of know what they're going through. But I think that grounding, of working hard at a young age, getting some appreciation of life and the real world, gives you some great perspective when you get into something that you do love.
Speaker 2:I think so, man. Certainly, seeing how hard you work now, it's certainly flowed on in your rugby. What about the different sports? Mate? You talked about track and field. It's very different to rugby. How did you find the exposure to a whole lot of different sports?
Speaker 1:I think the best sport that I was involved in that helped me with my coaching the most was cricket.
Speaker 1:So I would always coach one of our 15A teams, kind of like the development team for the first, and then actually our curator at the school was a first grade cricket captain and coach, so I sort of utilized him as the expert of the knowledge and then utilized what I knew at that point of how to run a sporting program and use his expertise to formalize what that program would look like, what training sessions would look like, and then even coaching cricket with the team. It's certainly more of a psychological game. Yeah, it is. When you're bowling it's just you and the batter. When you're batting, it's your 10 guys chirping at you and one guy trying to get you out or take your head off. So I think that understanding of how you can apply a skill into more of an individual sort of game but then also develop some tactics that are influenced by psychological parameters, sort of thing, it was actually a really, really great learning and a great base to then obviously take that into rugby as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what sort of chat do you have? Are you good at chipping at the batsman?
Speaker 1:yourself. No, I was just a really good appealer. I love a good chat Shout out to everything. Yeah, yeah, I actually used to love it, because when you're coaching school cricket, you're an umpire. Yeah, I was a pretty good umpire as well.
Speaker 2:And would you give people kudos if they did a good appeal?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I still tell the story of. This guy was at one of our battles, was trapped, plum, and none of the opposition appealed, or I think one sort of did a real lackluster, how's that and I didn't give him out because the appeal was no good.
Speaker 2:Mate, your kids must run ramshot over you. They know how to get to you. Dad, I need ice cream. Sure, yeah, easy, put some emotion into it, mate, that's right. And so, mate, what is like? Obviously you've gone through those, the schooling leading up to the Canberra Vikings, so you've had a really nice flow. What's been consistent throughout those things for you? Any points from obviously you're growing as you're going up, but what's been a consistent factor?
Speaker 1:that's always been there for you um, I think it's, it's the people. Um, I think you know, from a coaching point of view, you're dealing with human beings. So, um, you know, whether it's failures I've made or you know um achievements, it's probably been based off the connections and relationships you make with the people you're coaching. Um, and based off the connections and relationships you make with the people you're coaching, and I think the stronger and more authentic they are, the better you can make someone or the more you can get out of them. So I certainly think, yeah, coaching, and you talk about culture and leadership and that sort of stuff it's, in the end, it's about the interpersonal relationships you make and how you deal with people. I think if you can have positive influence, then you can get the best out of people, and that's when great things happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess that leads me to this question is how do you define culture?
Speaker 1:What is it for you, over your experiences coming through Again, I think every definition of culture is probably a little bit different, but it's about, um you know, the behaviors of a group of people really, um, their habits, the norms they have, and I think certainly one thing I've learned from a cultural point of view is it's always different depending on where you are, um, so the different clubs I've been at you know, brothers, for example, is very different to Vikings. Um, my school at St Pat's at Shorncliffe is very different to Anglian Church Grammar School. So I think understanding the differences in the cultures and what has potentially influenced or formalized those cultures, and leaning into that and embracing it is pretty important and leaning into that and embracing.
Speaker 1:It is pretty important and then obviously, making sure that the people you have within those environments are being good people. You're helping them to be good people. Then you're getting some consistent positive behaviors and trends in that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. How does it differ between school-aged kids to men, to then professional players?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think there's certainly some similarities. They're all humans, they've all got a story, they've all got a. Why that?
Speaker 2:why changes and grows if certain things are discovered in life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, that's the thing. I think that's the real difference between school and age-wise and then club. You've got an environment of school where it's quite structured. They're there a lot of the time. There's a lot of constraints in terms of what they can and can't do, but then club footy is obviously. It's a big, wide world. People have families. They've got to support themselves financially. They might be living away from home. So I think, yeah, the structure of a school is probably, I think, a little bit easier to create a culture and have those positive behaviours where you kind of have less control, especially in a club environment where you don't have a lot of contact time with them.
Speaker 2:That's a great point, mate. So in school rugby, because everyone's there, they're all the same age, they're all largely the same intention you've got them because they have to be at school. You're saying that's easier to create a culture at a school.
Speaker 1:I think so, yeah, a good environment, yeah, and I think I've had a fair experience in schools and parents are usually the big topic when it comes to. You're talking to teachers or sports coordinators in school and I think the reality is the way I thought about it is that they're the main stakeholders of the children of the students.
Speaker 1:So I was always big on bringing them sort of inside the tent and trying to educate them on what the program, our behaviors, what we're holding them accountable for in terms of being a part of whatever program it was. And educating them Because I think if you can get the buy-in from them as stakeholders, then they can potentially help you get the best out of them more consistently Because, as I said, yes, you know help you get the best out of them more consistently because, as I said, yes, you have more time at school, but you know they also are going home, you know, spending the majority of time in family life as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's a really good point, Like parents are the main stakeholders at schoolboy level in girl rugby. So how do you get some? You've got some examples of how you get that buy-in. You talked about the educate the parents. Is there anything else to help that buy-in?
Speaker 1:Well, it used to be the same as we'd educate our players or students. I think we always had a. We've always driven a philosophy on how we want to be as a person and then, obviously, how we want to play, and I'd run induction evenings for the parents. Once we've narrowed down our squad, we'd have an induction evening before one of our trial games. So once that final squad's locked in it might be before our first trial I would get them in for a morning, provide some food and that sort of stuff, ensure that the parents can connect I can connect, but then I'll present to them about our program philosophy, what are the core behaviors that we're wanting to develop in their sons, and I'd even talk to them how we're looking to play as well. Oh, you'd even go that far, yeah, and I think people who have been in school programs there's always parents that may have coached or have an opinion, and they might have an opinion where their son fits in or how they should be playing.
Speaker 1:Yes, I'm sure that's, and to be honest, I've had individual meetings with parents as well to make sure they understand and have that clarity on what we're trying to do with their son and what we're trying to achieve as a team as well.
Speaker 2:Do you have some tasty conversations?
Speaker 1:To be honest, I'll just kill them with information. That's what I've done in the past.
Speaker 2:Just dump it on them.
Speaker 1:In a structured way.
Speaker 1:But I think the other big area where I thought, um, you know, I had some success with parents was also just making sure I killed um the players with feedback so they knew where they stood all at all times. Yeah, um, yeah, having feedback, um record sheets where every time I had an engagement with a, with a player, it was noted. So, whether it was an informal conversation in the gym, a one-on-one review, a huddle film, feedback, and then I'd also formalize that feedback into a feedback sheet. So at the end of a conversation I would go down, I'd send that to the player via email so they can reflect on the main points that we had, and I had a template where they would give me their own feedback as well. And I'd always only communicate with the student. But then if that advanced to a parent wanting to get involved, well then there's a line of communication that I could provide to those stakeholders that outline what we had discussed, because I think there's a lot of communication, get lost in translation between a young teenager and a loving, supporting parent.
Speaker 2:I'm feeling that one mate Just dealing with teenage daughters at the moment and the door's shut, the music on dad's not allowed in.
Speaker 1:Maybe you should start a feedback sheet, mate, mate, record it.
Speaker 2:Kill them with feedback. I think two sentences would probably do it at the moment. I'd accept two sentences back Now. Mate, so you really had a rich career in the schooling and then part of your transition was then going into outside of schooling once you left, and you talked about how it becomes a little bit trickier to manage once you get out there. How did you find that transition from leaving schools behind and getting out into the club world for starters at Brothers? How was that transition?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I took a lot of the lessons I learned and the processes that I established in those programs into senior club programs as well. So, again, being big on feedback so players know where they stand and have clarity, and making sure you're getting to all players as well. And I think that's probably an easy aspect of coaching, that it's easy to talk to the best player or the one you get along really well with, or the guy that might need a fair bit of work on their development, and sometimes you miss maybe the middle guys in the middle or you might miss the guys who are your key performers because you know they're doing a good job. So I think, yeah, making sure there's open communication lines, building those relationships you're constantly trying to connect and give feedback, you know is a real valuable tool.
Speaker 2:And how did you find the mix like from the schoolboy stuff where the students are generally pretty motivated, first of things a big thing in those schools you're at and you get to rugby club where you've got four grades and the fourth grade is the social grade, right? How did you, when you ran the whole program, how did you make sure that you're hitting the different levels of people that are there for just the social times and those that are pursuing super rugby contracts and things like that?
Speaker 1:It's certainly a challenge because even in the lower grade social programs, there still might be players that might want to be playing at a higher level and I think, yeah, one of the key designs of our programs, or the programs that I've implemented, is this alignment.
Speaker 1:So you know whether it's the game model, you know our philosophy and behaviours, or resourcing of the program, we try to make sure that it's aligned and offered to everyone within the club. We should be able to see the same consistent training coaching style of play at a club. No matter if you're a social player, you're still getting a quality training session that's fun and enjoyable, that's engaging, and that's probably, I think, really, really important is that, yeah, they want to have fun, but it's like anyone, if you go to something that's organized and it's constructive and you find yourself getting better, you're going to get more buy-in as well and I think, no matter if it's a first grader or a sixth grader, at some point they're playing rugby because they love it and if they can be a bit better at it, you get a bit of buy-in there as well.
Speaker 2:How do you align the bottom team to the top team in terms of the game model?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's certainly hard, but I think the key aspects are just some consistent terminology, so that language that you use when you're playing footy, make sure that's consistent and that everyone knows. So, again, if I'm a fourth grader that needs to sit on the bench for the third grader, you kind of have the same role and you have the same understanding of what is expected of you when you go onto that field for the next team. And again, like I think, yeah, you might not be able to advance a game model like you would in a first grade with a lower grader, but there's some fundamental core skills and some simple base shapes and how you want to play that can be implemented by any coach at different levels?
Speaker 2:Did you have a lot of coaches use sort of theming for some of those terminology things?
Speaker 1:Have you done that? Yeah, in the philosophies and game models we created there's certain themes that, for a Vikings example, we use a lot of terminology around Vikings and raiding and exit that sort of stuff.
Speaker 2:Is that part of culture, is that part of to create that feel and that backstory?
Speaker 1:I think even an example of that. Like you know, brothers is a very proud long history club. When I came in, there was this consistent terminology that was already there, so I thought it was really important not to come in and change that.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:We kept it pretty consistent and there wasn't really any theme to you know Brothers, or what options were used, you know in the field of play in terms of terminology, but it just was what it was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, been there a long time, so you keep the historical tradition.
Speaker 1:Like blue and white, which is the colours of the club, were shapes of nine and ten like some simple stuff like that, yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh, cool man.
Speaker 1:I think that's probably an important thing is understanding of the cultures. You know Umbrellas is a really strong, proud culture, so if someone was to come in there and try to change things drastically, it wouldn't work.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:You kind of have to embrace and lean into that. And yeah, you can, I think you know, adapt certain parts of the game or you know off field or you off field to an extent. But I think you've got to lean into what's potentially already there.
Speaker 2:I think. So You've got to take a bit of time, don't you? Just to see what's there, what's done and not done, because you can.
Speaker 1:But then again, I think, understanding what you're going into, you might be going into a team that hasn't had any success and they do need a rebuild, or yes, and it might be an opportunity to come in and establish a culture that isn't there.
Speaker 2:Is that happening anywhere else? Like Vikings, you say Breander Brothers and the Vikings. Vikings are very strong traditionally.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so Vikings has a really proud history of success. I think the challenge at the moment is that we haven't won a premiership in eight years. There's a real motivation to win, so it's finding that balance of expectation and pressure to win and making sure that the players can perform. I think, yeah, certainly leaning into that proud history and understanding it as well. And, as I said, Brawlers is very different to Vikings. The Brisbane competition is very different to the Canberra competition. So understanding and getting a knowledge of that I think will help us develop the culture of Vikings.
Speaker 2:So just a little bit of background on your movement. So you did the Brothers and you pretty much did every role in the club right and got an understanding ultimately, till you were running director of everything, not just any one team. Then from there, the opportunity came to get up into the Vikings and move to Canberra. What was the decision-making process for that?
Speaker 1:so I think from from brothers I went to Churchy, anglington Church Grammar School yep and I went into a full-time coaching position. They were just the first 15 yep but same thing with that, like I influence what our development age groups were doing a bit with the director of rugby as well. So I think that gave me a good grounding of more the coaching side of things on top of what I'd done from program development and directing Yep. And then obviously the Vikings job was an opportunity to. The role is first grade head coach and coaching director, but small competition, less teams, so it's probably finding it a little bit easier to balance both of the roles. But yeah, as I sort of alluded to before, vikings have a proud history and it's a great club with great resourcing and a great opportunity for any coach who's been there to really implement strategies for performance and have some success.
Speaker 2:yeah, Did you feel the pressure? Because it's a very proud club, isn't it? With a lot of expectation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I made it history this year. I was the first first-year coach not to win the GF. I didn't want to bring it up, mate, so went close, um, but I think, yeah, the reality is there's any. There's a lot of pressure with you know, any level of coaching because, as I said, you are dealing with people and, um, I think, yeah, the higher you get potentially, the more pressure that comes with it.
Speaker 1:Um, and I think it's hard as a coach balancing potentially why you might coach and performance and winning. I think, yeah, I did struggle with that at times in terms of wanting to make sure I was achieving for the club, because there is such a great expectation to win and a proud history of winning, but then also making sure I stayed true to my own philosophy of why I coach and enjoying that. That's certainly one of the big lessons I've learnt from my first season going into the next is that I probably want to make sure our program enjoys what we're actually doing. We love footy, yeah, yeah, and yeah, we all might have aspirations and players might have aspirations to go high and play professionally and that sort of stuff, but it shouldn't be at the cost of enjoyment.
Speaker 2:What is your philosophy?
Speaker 1:you talked about Connection, so I want to make sure I'm connected to my players, my staff, developing people. So sport provides a great framework to develop people on and off the field. And then, yeah, performance, which is making sure I can bring the best out of the people so they can perform on the field.
Speaker 2:Just two words connection performance.
Speaker 1:Connection development performance yeah. Development in the middle yeah.
Speaker 2:The piece between Mate, does it take you long to work on that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's like it's evolving all the time. Um, I think it's it's important to have a bit of clarity on on why you do things and, and, um, how you want to do them. Um, yeah, I think coaching philosophy there's always chat around what it is and do you have one? So, yeah, I was just sort of putting thought into that and then, to make sure that I can stay true to myself, yeah, I've sort of come up with those three pillars that I want to make sure I do well.
Speaker 2:I love how you just banged it straight out Boom connection. Well, mate, I'm really intrigued about the Viking stuff because it's such an interesting dynamic where you've got your aspirational players but there's also a bigger club which has got the age groups and stuff going down. And what's the biggest challenges you've had culturally once you've got there and you've had a year now, you didn't quite get what all the other first year coaches get with a win. What was some of the bigger cultural challenges you had, specifically after one year?
Speaker 1:Yeah, look, I don't think there was anything that really stood out this year. Again, I think what we've already spoken about is probably getting an understanding of who the Vikings are and what we are about as a club, and I certainly have great knowledge around that than when I started at the start of the season, so I'm very confident that that will hopefully allow us to establish a better program next season.
Speaker 2:You did something quite cool. I came down and visited for a weekend. I loved you'd done a Valhalla which you'd set up a. Do you want to talk about your concepts behind that Valhalla Again? That?
Speaker 1:ties into the alignment piece of. We want to make sure, yeah, we offer a good, we want to be offering a quality performance program, but we want to make sure that everyone in the club is feeling a part of it. And, like we've already spoken about, the fourth grader might not want a performance program, might not want a performance program, but they want a community and a place where they feel part of, feel connected to, and obviously typically in most clubs, the lower graders want to enjoy themselves after the game and support the first grade. So, yeah, we came up with a bit of a concept of there was a function tent that they didn't use anymore. So we created Valhalla, which was basically a place where our lower graders could go, or our colts could go or our Vi queens can go and get together and watch the first grade, and I sort of enabled some of our leaders in those groups to run it. We ended up with a DJ in there.
Speaker 2:Wasn't you was it Shorty.
Speaker 1:No, I was busy coaching, that's right, but they played some bangers that I like, which was good.
Speaker 1:And then also we got the canteen next to it called the Red Army, which they'd put on a feed and drink deal. So, yeah, the outcome we're trying to achieve is just a place where people felt they wanted to be there, fell a part of of what vikings is all about and could, you know, express themselves and be who they want to be. Um, and I kind of stole it. We created a concept in our brothers, um, called the butchery, which was the same thing. Yeah, so that stemmed from again, there was an old boys Hobbits bar where all the old boys would go to drink and then typically a lot of the lower grade players and colts would go there, and there was always. Kids are misbehaving and so we're like let's create our own space for the playing group. We come up with the name the Butchery, and same thing. We put some theming around it. Everyone knew we could go to the butchery. There was a dj, some cheap drinks and, uh, a good time.
Speaker 2:So mate, how good. Well, certainly that valhalla concert was pumping when I came and was just with you for the weekend to watch the game and it was amazing how many people were there and they were steaming up and I think that they do it really well in Sydney as well.
Speaker 1:Shoot Shield clubs have their own. I'm not a Sydney expert, but I know they have like you know, supportive groups of the players that are themed to each club, sort of thing. And again, I think it just provides a place and, yeah, a group to get together and have a good time.
Speaker 2:Love it, mate, and it certainly comes back to your philosophy, our connection piece. It's a massive connector, isn't it, between all the grades, all the different reasons for being there. Sometimes alcohol seems to bring people together for better or worse, but it does do that. Now, we talked earlier, just before, when we were having a hamburger. We were talking about some of the interesting cultural pieces and you guys had a lot of Japanese. We had a couple of Japanese players this year, players from elsewhere, you had a number of English players, a couple of Kiwis, different amalgamation of guys coming in and it doesn't always like I believed it went relatively well. But what are some of the downfalls around trying to build a team when you've got guys or girls coming in from external things with their own coming into a traditional club, mucking with the system potentially? How did you find that?
Speaker 1:I think, yeah, we had 13 different nationalities within our grand final set up, including coaches as well and staff. So yeah, it was a melting pot of cultures and backgrounds. But again, I think it comes back to like we embraced that. That was part of who we are and I think it is important to make sure you're aware of different backgrounds of your players and embracing their story and where they've come from. So we sort of embraced that through the final series.
Speaker 1:And then, if you look at the history of the Vikings, it's always been a part of the club's history where players from outside of Canberra because it is a small community and a small competition they typically come in. So it is a part of the history of the club. So I think leaning into that and embracing that. But then it also then comes down to making sure that the playing group has an understanding of who we are and what we're trying to be about. So, no matter what nationality, we can all behave the same way. We can all work together and aim to achieve something through some common behaviours.
Speaker 2:Yeah, certainly I really enjoyed just watching you for that week that I was there, that the interaction was awesome between you, wouldn't even known that the guys are there just for the year from all different places. Just the interaction was so good. A couple of cool things you did do which I thought was was really good, which a lot of clubs could probably take a lot of, uh, practical things from you is like I love the way that you had a whole assembly on the trainings where all the teams came together and you spoke to them all as a collective, which four or five teams, whatever it was, which was kind of unusual. Normally a lot of places just have on a training night all the teams just go separate out. You actually brought everyone and all the difference, including, like, the colts and the ladies, and you brought them all together and you just whacked off your key points. Is that part of your philosophy around connecting? Is that a thing you do?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's part of the alignment pieces. We call it general business and so we facilitated the same sort of meetings at Brothers as well, where it was just full club meetings, typically on a Thursday before the main sessions, where all the players are most likely going to be there including your lower graders.
Speaker 1:And then again it's just about re-arranging key points for the weekend, whether it's just general information. You need to make sure that everyone gets across if they're not checking their phone. We talk a lot about the theme that we ran on last season and the behaviours that we want to see at the weekend. We might enable a player, the club captain or a leader of Valhalla to come up and talk about what's on in the weekend. So it gives the players an opportunity to lead the community themselves as well. But making sure that we're getting those key messages across.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was good. Well, I saw like the fourth grade team one of the larrikins in that team get up and speak regularly and it was wonderful because he brought a whole different tone and hit different people in the crew around the social side of things.
Speaker 1:It was fantastic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. And how do you manage with not only the players? But your role is not just coaching, it is coaching. But then you've got the business side, you've got the high-performance side, you've got the shareholders' point of view. How do you manage all those different things? I know you talked earlier about parents being shareholders. Now you're actually dealing with business people that are running this as a business and doing a very good job of it, and you're part of that process.
Speaker 1:How do you connect all those dots and how have you done that? It is like in these sort of roles and yeah, I think there's a lot of, probably people out there hopefully listening that understand when you're a coaching director or a sports coordinator and a coach like um, it does create a fair, fair workload, um, but I think it's like anything, it's making sure that you're organised. You have your key priorities throughout the week. You've got good processes, but in terms of like, management of, potentially, staff and coaches, and managing up is just again, making sure that they have a clear understanding of you know what we're trying to achieve, how we're trying to achieve it, and that they feel bought in as well. I think giving them opportunities to provide feedback or have interactions and they're not just puts to the side is really, really important. You're trying to do the best you can in terms of that, but you've also got to be aware that sometimes you can't please everyone as well.
Speaker 2:You've got to have a thick skin for that side of things too right. Yeah, it's like a business yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think, like especially with club footy, people have earned the right to have an opinion. You know a lot of people in clubs that are passionate supporters. They've been passionate supporters for a long time or they might have played 150 games for the club and I think having that awareness is like, yeah, you might not agree with some opinions, but you know, potentially they've done a lot for the club and they have the right to say something or think something.
Speaker 1:But, again, I think that education piece of do they understand what you're trying to achieve and if you're trying to do the right thing and they understand it, you can potentially get them on side as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love it. It's a fascinating one, because not always do you appreciate the opinions of others, do you? Especially when you're running a club such as yours yeah yeah, is yours, yeah, yeah. Now on that mate, when it comes to you dealing with that kind of critiquing and that type of interactions, how have you developed your own leadership around that side of stuff? You're an awesome guy for professional development. You're always looking at getting out there doing different things. Has that been a big part of you progressing up the coaching ranks?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think so. I think you're always striving to get better. I still remember I left school I was saying I dug holes for a while. I went straight into basically full-time work in sports and I actually tried a number of different degrees because I always thought you needed a degree to get a job or a better job. Different degrees because I always thought you needed a degree to get a bit, uh, you know, a job or a better job, um, and it wasn't until I sort of stumbled upon some sports specific um university qualifications. So it was a sports coaching degree at UQ that I sort of started to get a little bit more probably guidance and and interested in actually, you know the, the academic um, you know the academic literature that's out there that can actually help coaching.
Speaker 1:And then that you know you delve into coaching or you're reading about different coaches and yeah, like I think sort of actually being able to learn something specifically through an academic program kind of probably helped me learn a little bit more in terms of giving me a bit more guidance, where, um, and actually like probably motivated me to seek more as well. I think, um, yeah, that was a really big part of probably my early development, um, and then, yeah, like I think the more people you can connect with and learn from, the, the more you grow and you might not believe in some things you see, or take everything for gospel, but there's always a couple of little nuggets that you can take from here and there. I've done a number of PD trips recently where if you get one or two key things that you can bring into a program, which might be small or might be a big thing, then I see it being worthwhile.
Speaker 2:And how is your process? Because you've reached out to some pretty big names in the game. I know you and Robbie Deans. You're regularly taking a flight to go over to Japan to watch the Panasonic Wild Nights. You're outstanding. Is that just something that's worth the money? Do you recommend doing that sort of thing?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think, again, it's always hard to be connecting with people, but I think you've got to put yourself out there a little bit as well, be brave enough to ask a question and be brave enough to be told no, and I think what you find most of the time is there's a lot of good people out there that are willing to help. Yeah, right, yeah, and you're an example that I stumbled upon and met you through pd we did at highlanders, three brothers and um. Every time I've asked you a question, you've always replied.
Speaker 2:So well, mate, you're right 17 000. No, I do take my hat off to you, mate, like, because it's it's very easy to just get stuck in the loop and just get in that grind, but I've always been impressed by the way that you've had that bigger picture in mind. You're always reaching out, looking for little things. I know you even have got analysts that do specific stuff, don't you like stats that are just off the chart, crazy and detailed? But you're always reaching for just what's out there. What's out there, and I think that's why you're keeping on progressing, right? Is that fair to say? I hope so.
Speaker 1:No, I think. Yeah. Again, I don't think some of the people I've met or the data I use or processes I use, I would have that if I wasn't proactive in finding and connecting with people. Yeah, and I think you'd be a good bloke and you're in it for the right reasons as well. People tend to give back as well, which is yeah, I think. Yeah, I said, the people I've sort of connected with and what I've learned and got out of them has been awesome.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, just a personal story about yourself, schultz, is you asked me to come in and just tag along for a week at the Vikings last year and for me it was a great experience just to sit as an overseer and just chip away at little points across the program. I really got a lot out of it for myself, just being able to sit back with no responsibilities, just to fly on the wall and offer little pits and pieces. So I found that for my own journey around where I'm going, mentoring and stuff really satisfying and enriching. How did someone tagging along like that, watching everything you do, how did that go for you and what was your view of someone doing that to you?
Speaker 1:I think there's two points. The main motivation I had for that is in these roles, especially as a head coach, it can be quite lonely.
Speaker 2:Oh, mate, were you just bringing me in for a? That's how well I was getting so many beers in the evening.
Speaker 1:But no, you're trying to do your best and you think it's the best, but it might not be. You're trying to do your best and you think it's the best but it might not be, and then sometimes you might be limited to resources where people will be able to internally give you feedback and be looking at the right things and that sort of stuff. So that was like a real motivation. I think the other big one with coaching is also making sure you're trying to park your ego a little bit Again, especially when people are trying to park your ego a little bit.
Speaker 1:Um, you know again, especially when people are trying to, you know, have aspirations maybe to coach higher sort of give you a closed book and you think you, you know you you're awesome and I've certainly had those thoughts and that sort of stuff, but you're gonna make sure you put your ego aside and be open to to learning and ask people to give you feedback. Um, yeah, I think, like the reason why I got you in is because you know we've connected over a number of years now and I respect everything you've done and I knew that you'd give an honest opinion of what you saw. Um, and certainly we got some great learnings from a club and I also got some great learnings as a leader out of out of that week as well yeah, it was good fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, a couple of things I took out. Just you reminded me there, I think, your tradition after the game you had to win, so it was everyone had, or the whole staff had to do a fireball whiskey shot. It's one of those cinnamon-flavored drinks which every time I see it now I think of that game, mate. So you've left a little indent on me, but, but it was lovely, mate, and what I did find is just in feedback to you which I've already given you is everyone's really complimentary of the system, not just players, but across the board. It was really cool to hear, with that in mind, how would you define you as a leader? Like it's, leadership is something which is really personal. What do you want to be as a leader? Um, yeah, I think it comes down to just being authentic, personal.
Speaker 1:What do you want to be as a leader? I think it comes down to just being authentic. Yeah, I certainly hope I'm approachable and giving. I want to make sure, as I said, we've spoken about connection and relationships and that sort of stuff and I think if you're not an open book and you're not approachable, you're not going out of your way to develop those relationships, then, with my leadership philosophy, you can't be an effective leader and, yeah, I want to make sure that I'm not. Yeah, I am authentic, I'm being myself and you've got to wear different hats at times, as a leader and as a coach, but you still want to be yourself and I think having an understanding of having that self-awareness of who you are is also really really important as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and sometimes you can get lost, can't you in that, With results and the fear of losing and all that stuff can affect your authentic self, right? Any experiences of that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, as sort of alluded to before, in terms of the Vikings and the pressure and that sort of stuff, I think even for us as a group, we only had two losses in a row, which is not the end of the world, but at that point in time we thought it was. But I think, yeah, we just got back to our. It was a great wake-up call and got back to our core values of what we wanted to be as a team, and I think that gave me the opportunity to reflect on how I was leading as well and get back to your authentic self. It's amazing what a couple of losses do.
Speaker 2:Yes, losses. If you take them the right way, they can be wonderful teachers. But you'd rather learn from the winds.
Speaker 1:I think is the easier way to do it Get uncomfortable. Being uncomfortable, sometimes you go straight to the shot and fireball.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you get addicted to the fireball so you've got to get back on that train. Here's something, mate. What, what? What are for you now, like just aspirationally? Obviously you're that we're talking earlier about it's. Decisions in coaching now get a little bit trickier when your families are older, when you've got kids. You, your older, eldest, is coming up last year high school. Your other, your others, are getting up towards high school and mid-high school. What's the thinking now around being aspirational and pro rugby stuff, because that's where you're leading to. You've come up all the way through the ranks and you're sitting at that cusp. How hard is that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think with that, I want to be a good coach, I want to coach professionally and that sort of stuff. But I think if you get too fixated on that, it's like when you're dealing with players, you're outcome focused, you forget about the process and you can't perform. So, yeah, I think I froth over coach. I love it and the reality is I'm in a position that I think a lot of people would love to be in and the reality is I'm coaching professionally full-time. So I've just got to make sure I keep love what I'm doing and enjoying the process of running the program, trying to win games of footy, connecting with people and see what happens.
Speaker 2:Yeah, mate, that's a very good PC answer. Political answer. I love it, you had to do it. Mate Process.
Speaker 1:As everyone says, you're a young coach. I'm 37, so I have a long career ahead of me.
Speaker 2:That's correct, mate. That's correct. Well, it is challenging for a lot of coaches, but because sometimes you have to follow the opportunities and that might mean dragging families around the world and uprooting families and that sort of thing. So it's a tough one. In some parts of the world there's only one team in one area and if there's someone who's got a stake for that position, then if you want it, you potentially have to move. So it does have a degree of nomadic existence. If you want to chase that professional thing, which means your family has to be on board, no problems.
Speaker 1:No, I think, yeah, my family loves it. They're a big part of Vikings at the moment. But, yeah, I think that's an understanding and I think the beauty of my personal relationship is, you know, my wife has been with me since I was 20, when I started digging holes and pumping up for his, and you know, and we've gone along the journey and, to be honest, like you know, without her I probably wouldn't be where I was today, because she keeps me grounded. She's always, yeah, making sure that I am putting you know family first, or you know that I'm I'm not losing track of of that. Um, yeah, and I think, yeah, yeah, the beauty of coaching and rugby and this is sometimes what we talk to our players is it can take you to some pretty awesome places, and that might or might not happen, but, um, it could be potentially some cool experiences for the family and, um, I think, like anyone, you know where home is and, yeah, you can always go back to there.
Speaker 2:I love it, mate. Hey Shiltsy, it's been a pleasure sitting here in the park. The sun has now gone down, so I'm going to wrap it up with one more question, my friend, and that question is what's a belief you have? Question is what's a belief you have, do you think your fellow coaches or peers anywhere in the world would disagree with? And that can be something. It doesn't have to be about coaching.
Speaker 1:it can be about cultural or leadership or any aspect of that I think, yeah, what we've we've spoken about in terms of, um, yeah, putting people first, being authentic, and that sort of stuff, and I think it's probably a statement that I might struggle with at times, but maybe the school board doesn't matter.
Speaker 2:Maybe the school board doesn't matter.
Speaker 1:Ooh, pretty deep, isn't it? What do?
Speaker 2:you mean by that mate?
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, you're trying to win footy games, but I think there's a lot of other things that rugby and programs and coaching and leadership can have impact on people. So I think, yeah, you might win or lose a footy game, but is what you've done in the lead up to that or potentially the effect you're having on people long-term is what's more important.
Speaker 2:And when you mean the school board, you mean the board of trustees.
Speaker 1:No school board. Oh sorry, I thought you were saying the school board.
Speaker 2:Mate, it's your accent from Canberra. Mate, You've already picked up that the school board doesn't matter.
Speaker 1:It doesn't matter, mate, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and to be fair I would say suggest a lot of coaches would say well, it's the first thing that matters, that's the challenge, isn't it? It's the challenge, man.
Speaker 1:That's why probably my assistant coaches wouldn't, or the people I work with wouldn't, agree. That's something I think it does matter. Are you going back on it now? No, you can't go back on it.
Speaker 2:You can't put it out there and then say, go back on it now. No, you can't go back on it. You can't put it out there and then say, go back on it, no. I get the sentiment and I actually agree with that myself. I think it has a place, but ultimately the people come first. I'm a massive believer in that too. That it's it's a game at the end of the day, and it's a game which is full of values and good stuff stuff for life and if we can drag that stuff out of rugby and give it to people for their lives, we're making better people, better communities, and that's kind of what rugby's founded on yeah, I think if you're doing that, you're probably running a pretty, pretty good program and the outcome might be winning as well.
Speaker 2:So bloody love it, mate. Hey, sheltie, what a pleasure to have you here in the park after eating burgers at the pub down the road. I'll just sign off now, mate, with my three takeaways from this conversation. Firstly is digging holes. I love the way you started your professional working life digging holes because, knowing you, it has really given you a good appreciation for the game as a profession. You're really invested in it. You've had that experience of digging holes, getting blisters on your hands, and you now appreciate how good it is to be involved in rugby as a profession. You're really invested in it. You've had that experience of digging holes, getting blisters on your hands, and you now appreciate how good it is to be involved in rugby as a profession. And I think that's something we can all look at too. And if we haven't dug holes, just picture that and you'll you'll get there.
Speaker 1:If you do need a hole dug, I'm still pretty you're still pretty good.
Speaker 2:Number two is I love the comment you said about at school rugby. Parents are your main shareholders and one of your biggest things as a coach or director or a director of coaching, is to educate your stakeholders, get the buy-in from the shareholders which are your parents. You were doing things like inductions just to help that education, which goes a long way to creating real buy-in and the program gets better because of it. And number three, your ability with pd, professional development and that constant round around the. The more you connect with people, the more you're going to grow, and I think that's a really good one, because we can often get stuck in the box of just our team, our game. I think every opportunity you get the chance to try something else, see what others are doing, you're going to grow. And you said you might not agree with it all, but there'll always be a little gold nugget somewhere in there. And I think that's 100, true, beautiful mate awesome man.
Speaker 1:Thanks, see you next time easy.