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Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Alando Soakai: Know your product, 'The game will take care of itself'
What transforms a drinking club with a rugby problem into championship winners? According to Alando Soakai, it begins with crystal-clear values that everyone truly lives by.
In this captivating conversation, Alando takes us through his remarkable coaching journey from player-coach to his current roles with Moana Pacific and the Tonga national team. His perspective on culture development comes alive through concrete examples rather than coaching platitudes – from filming players embodying team values to translating core principles into Japanese to ensure true ownership at Kubota Spears.
"The rugby will happen no matter what," Alando reveals, highlighting his philosophy that technical aspects are secondary to human connection. He distinguishes between merely "knowing" players and truly "understanding" their circumstances, particularly within Pacific Island communities where cultural context shapes everything.
There's something refreshingly authentic about Alando's approach to coaching diverse teams. At Moana Pacific, morning prayer sessions bring together Christians and non-religious players alike, creating a daily ritual of connection before training begins. Working alongside rugby legend Tana Umaga, he appreciates how the head coach "saves his bullets" – speaking with measured purpose rather than constant commentary.
Perhaps most inspiring is Alando's revelation about his vision board. Years before securing positions with Super Rugby and Tonga, he visualized these exact roles. His pathway wasn't just technical excellence but curiosity-driven professional development that opened unexpected doors.
For coaches at any level, Alando's insights on creating diversity within coaching teams offers a fresh perspective. Different coaches connect with different player personalities, creating a complementary unit that reaches everyone effectively.
Ready to transform your coaching approach? Listen now to discover how understanding people deeply leads to championship results.
If you can SUBSCRIBE, RATE, and SHARE the show and series, you would be doing your bit to grow this show. Very appreciated. Ben
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You're working out a culture where they love to work, work, work, work, and you do get caught up in it. If you saw the lows and the highs, I came into the club with the saying what's best for peers. Because he's Tāna Umanga, he's got the change of tone, the change of voice. There's also quite a nice way of delivering these messages. I just like for the fact that he lets us coach, but he also asks questions. You know, you're always trying to find ways of getting better and I just felt Japan allowed me to actually learn, grow, fail. The analogy was around being a postman understanding that this is the product, this is the package, but you know how to deliver it.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Coaching Culture, a podcast about cultivating culture and leadership that this is the product, this is the package, but you know how to deliver it. Welcome to Coaching Culture, a podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Lando Sokai Targo and the Highlanders junior ABs as a player before he transitioned coaching with the Kubota Spears with the legendary Franz Ludica in Japan. He then came back after a burnt stint and head coached the Wellington Lions to very high, achieving championship winning results, and now he is Moana Pacific and Tonga defensive coach, Orlando welcome to the show brother Ben, how's things, man Really looking forward to this?
Speaker 2:I love it, I love it, I love it. Righto mate, we'll start with the first question, which is how do you define culture?
Speaker 1:I was actually thinking about it for the whole day. For me, culture's around. It's a set of values that's great upon a group of men. If I say a group of men, that's your leaders, and it's your coaching, your management team, um, that that you've agreed on. But then also, what's the, the, the behaviors that go with it. What does it look like in terms of when you walk in, walk out each day? Um, you know it's, it's the, it's the morals around it. What are the standards that go with it? Um, and, and it becomes almost your dna. I've talked about to other coaches, about that. That almost sets you apart from the rest. That makes you different in terms of if someone wants to walk into your environment, they've got to feel that culture, yeah. So for me it's yeah. What is culture? It's a set of values that are great upon people, a group of people, and it's about living to it. You know each day, each week, and then, hopefully, you know you reach that common goal at the end of the season.
Speaker 2:I love it. Something you said there which is interesting Soaks is walk in and walk out. What does the walk out bit refer to?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think, knowing that you've done a great day at work, but also knowing that you've made a difference, and that difference is about how have I made an impact in today's day, and that's probably been real clear around in terms of, okay, well, what does your session plan look like? Who am I looking to connect? Who do I need to connect? Because I think, when you walk in, are you shaking hands with your teammates and your coaches, like, is that real intentional? Are you seeing eye to eye in terms of, you know, seeing your player's body language? You know someone might walk in with a hoodie over eye contact, you know might be heading towards the ground. That's probably someone you go, okay, all right, might need to dial into this guy today just to see where he's at and just making sure that, okay, is he okay? But again, knowing that when you're walking out, knowing that, yeah, man, I've had a great day today and that I've done this, I've connected with this guy, yeah, it's just knowing that you've made a difference in today's day, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, made a difference, made an impact. Is that just on the coaching front, or is that sort of on the human front, more so?
Speaker 1:No, I think it's both. It's definitely both. You know, when I have one-on-ones, the question is more in terms of it's not about rugby. I think it's more in terms of how's the person, in terms of you know how things are, how are you, you know how's your wife, how's your kids, Because sometimes some of those questions can actually really open up something quite quickly and then sometimes that question really takes you on a different journey in terms of that one-on-one, because sometimes that one-on-one, you're going, yeah, fuck mate, I've got a couple of clips here to show you, but then hold up, that's it, you know. But then when you answer that question in terms of how things, yeah, it's a whole kind of care to connect first. You nail that first and then, all right, we're on now, because I think that the footy side of stuff will happen no matter what, but it's the ability to go okay, all right, that's where you're at today. I think that's really important in terms of you know, when you're having those one-on-ones, you've got discussions just checking in early.
Speaker 2:in're right. I believe the footy will happen, no matter what. That's the given, isn't it in any rugby organization? The rugby will happen. The question then is will the other stuff happen? Have you been in environments where that hasn't happened, or is that where you get the desire to do that from?
Speaker 1:I think for me, I guess I reflected my coaching journey. It was you know I started being a player coach. I think for me, I guess I reflected my coaching journey. It was you know I started being a player coach. And I think because being a player coach and you're quite new to coaching, it's like, okay, all right, I've got to know everything in terms of being a rugby player. I've got to know the X and O's. So your first question is all about rugby.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:There you go, mate, and because you want to prove yourself, there're like alright, I'm going to go real prepared here and I'm going to make sure I know how, in terms of the process of throwing the lift, a jump, a tackle, carrying clean, whereas I think you miss the most important part coming back to the person that's right in front of you. But again, for me, that probably took two, three years to actually nail that, and just fortunate that I had a head coach that allowed me to do that. But again, for me, that probably took two, three years to actually nail that, and just fortunate that I had a head coach that allowed me to do that. But then also, japan allowed me to actually well, it allowed me to grow, to become a better coach.
Speaker 2:Why does Japan do that Soaks?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just probably felt that the time I was at in Japan, the club that I was at, it was almost just trying to find our feet in terms of where we're at as a club, and again, it probably allowed me to try new things, especially around my coaching and you know, we were a club right down at the bottom at that time. But it allowed me to learn fail, get better at this Okay. Fail, get better at this Okay right, here's a better process in terms of doing this. But again, you know you're working out a culture where it's they love to work, work, work, work, and you know, and you do get caught up in it. So you know you're always trying to find ways of getting better. And then I just felt Japan allowed me to actually learn, grow, fail, all right, this is a better way. I've done it before. This is what my learnings are. All right, let's go down this track again. Yeah, hopefully that's answered it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, well, that's cool. That's a nice little three-way circle Learn, grow, fail. There's something about the fail bit which is important as a coach and I agree with you. I think Japan has that little element of you. Can fail a lot more in Japan. Yeah, maybe that's changing with the way that competition is going, but certainly when you started coaching in 2015 at a low-level, second division team, right and sometimes that's the beauty of starting at a level like that, right, like you just get that opportunity to have a crack, you're not really getting critiqued super hard and so you can afford to try stuff and see how they go and experiment and that's cool. And I heard you talking a while back, mate, when you talked about some coaches' pathway is through grassroots and they go through the levels, and the other way is you play and then transition, and you've gone that route and done very well through that. How have you found that transition from playing to coaching?
Speaker 1:And is there anything that's caught you off guard in that area? Yeah, it can go quite naive, I felt, because you think you know everything, because being a player, you go yep, you've done that skill for so long or that job as a player but it's when the coaching part of it it's, it's the it's, it's the parts that you don't, you don't see, it's you know, it's the man management, it's really understanding, um, the actual skill of a process, that that that stuff there in terms of you know, been really clear around. That that stuff there again was. Again it allowed me to fail along the way, but then I understand and I got better at actually knowing my process, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, france had a saying on your product. So it was around knowing your product but understanding. Knowing that because if you know your product, you know how to deliver it. So again, you know, the analogy was around being a postman understanding that this is the product, this is the package, but you know how to deliver it to the right people, if that makes sense. So knowing your product was okay.
Speaker 1:If I'm a defensive coach, you've got to know your defensive. You've got to know your product as a defensive, as a coach or forwards coach or backs coach and it's probably saying that really sticks with me in terms of like, you've got to know your product because that's the product that you're going to take. You're taking that product to the world. So wherever you're going, you've got to know in terms of where I'm at, I know my product. I'm a forwards coach, I'm a defensive coach. That will open up doors for you. So it's been really clear on that which, for me, play coach you've actually you're still learning that and it's a you know. It's a. You know there'll be days that you'll be you've got the playing hat on and there'll be days that you've got the coaching hat on, and it's quite a difficult situation to be. So for me, you know, going into full time, I actually was like, oh man, this is way better, yeah, having to juggle that.
Speaker 1:But again, it's the. It's your preparation around your time manager and your present presentation. You know your um, your session plans. That that's the stuff that, being a player, you don't see. You know because, being a player, you just you know, you see your presentations. You're in a, you're in a meeting, yep, understand what the focus points are. And then bang, you're onto the, you're onto the pitch as a coach. Okay, you know you're thinking about in terms of okay, what's my focus points for today's session? Okay, what am I presenting? How many slides, how many clips? Who do I need to shoulder tap in going into this meeting? So it's, you know there's a lot of that. Yeah, you don't have a lot of time to nail versus someone that's actually done a lot of time through clubs and through your high schools that are always in that hot seat.
Speaker 2:I think it's a cool phrase. You talked about knowing your product, and I love that reference to the postman, because you've got to also then know how to deliver it right. It's all very well knowing the stuff, but then it's only really as good as you can deliver it right, If no one's getting it what's? The point of having a great letter and writing a great letter to extend this analogy and then if it's delivered. No one appreciates it right.
Speaker 2:So do you find that a bit of a balance, like that, I want to know your product. Then does your mindset switch or do you turn like, right, how do I get biggest bang for my back? Yeah well 100%.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it does. I mean, again, it's understanding your audience, the people in front of you. You might have two, three key points, but you might know just that one key point in that meeting and you might go out to that session out there and and you and you actually need them you might have a second big rock in there, but you might let them just fail and let them learn as they go. So it's yeah, it's, it's the, it's the, it's your audience, that you crowd, understanding who they are, but again, understanding what your product is.
Speaker 1:Then you, okay, right, yeah, I mean I still show coaches, um, and then I go right, yeah, I mean I still show coaches my first slides, as you know, when I first presented, you know, and then, because sometimes you might go full circle, you might like I've shown my first slide and it's like it's minimal stuff, not quite catchy, but then you know along your journey because you've probably nailed your presentation and you've nailed your session plans and that. But sometimes you actually might come back and it's what I'm presenting now. It's actually the same message, if that makes sense, but the look of it might look a little different. Again, it's the whole kind of being really clear around your session plan and your focus points, because you've only got one, two key ones. That's why I should only have that versus bang. So many lines, so many words.
Speaker 1:It's funny how you go through just the that I should only have that versus bang, so many lines, so many words. Yeah, it's funny how you go through just the full circle showing that first presentation and going, oh, what the hell is that? But you know just over the years that you've been in the hot seat as a coach. You look at your current last sliders. That's actually quite similar because again, it's less words, understanding, knowing how to go right. What's the critical few here that we're presenting today? If that makes sense, because along the journey sometimes you go all right, I'm going to throw all these fucking 12 lines, 20 lines.
Speaker 2:Just read it from the keynote and again, you know. Yeah, I heard a quote the other day that said if you rely on a keynote, you don't know your product well, enough.
Speaker 1:Well, that's it. I was just about to say that sometimes, you know, I still fall on that trip. Sometimes you get caught up in analyzing your keynotes, you know. But the real magic is spending time with the player, with that person, and then on the grass with them. I mean, that's your best for Buck there.
Speaker 2:Like what you talked about before, that care to connect first In those moments. That's when your product comes out just naturally right. And has that progressed for you as you've got matured as a coach? You've been coaching 10 years now. It just comes with age and experience. Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1:But that's in my coaching philosophy. I've got a saying it's knowing the person before the player.
Speaker 2:Is that your philosophy?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's part of that, but then again, knowing the person before the player again, that takes time, that takes effort and even sometimes it also costs as well. It's something along the lines in terms of connecting with someone. It's taking time away from somewhere else, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1:So you've got to be willing to actually do that. But again, for me it's part of my coaching philosophy, but also it's part of the journey as a coach, getting to really understand that well, I know it's rugby, but then it's also what makes the rugby is the people. You nail that, I feel. Then the rest will take care of itself. And just, fortunate enough to be in two teams where I know that, well, what got us these results was actually known that far.
Speaker 2:Well, let's just look at the clues in terms of, well, you know that if that success it's the people, eh, and when you talk about those two teams mate, the big one in Japan was where you started your coaching was the Kubota Spears.
Speaker 2:When you started coaching, franz Ludiker, the great South African coach and one of the nicest guys in world rugby, was head coach there, just off air, you were just reminiscing about how that club was a bit of a shambles, if you're to speak nicely, and the quote I loved was you said it was Kubota spears for beers. So it was that sort of team floating down the bottom of Div 2, which it just becomes a bit of drinking culture, a bit of a party time, but a bit of just enjoy life. How did you two, and particularly like, what did you observe and how did you shift? Because ultimately, for those that don't know, that team went on to then get promoted, to then win the thing in the top division and you were there for that whole journey. So could you just run us through some of the big rocks around the cultural piece which shifted a muck around team to a champion running team?
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, I definitely saw the lows and the highs. You know, I came into a club where, you know don't get me wrong there were some great people there and to this day there is, and you know, a lot of them are good friends of mine. But if you look at our team and our environment and our culture, it was, yeah, the saying was space for bears, but it was again. I was finding in terms of, you know, what is our DNA, in terms of who we are as a team or as a club, and the big shift was actually when France came in and where, you know, it took time to actually identify that. I can remember our first meetings. You know, we were trying to nail that, our values, and at that time, you know, a lot of it was phrases. But then those phrases again, it became this, but then it came down to just a critical few. So when I talk about phrases, one of them was like. One of them was like same face. That was one of the phrases Same face.
Speaker 1:That was one of the phrases Same face, same face. Yeah, same face Again. So what same face meant for us as a team was win or lose, draw you, rock, and they have the same face. And again, that was our start in terms of it was more around our morals. But then, once we went on this journey and again it's the people eh, I felt when we started getting the right players, our management grew as coaches and I really felt we grew as leaders. We got the right people in there and then we started really narrow in terms of what our values were. I felt we understood in terms of who we wanted to be and who we were or who we are. And the nice thing is, you know, france gave me the opportunity to actually really present this throughout these, you know, for the last couple of weeks sorry, the last couple of years and he actually gave me time to actually present this.
Speaker 2:Present the values, yeah the values.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the nice thing was that you know when I talk about the people, you know I'm talking about a Ryan Crotty here. You know I'm talking about a Ryan Crotty, here I'm talking about a Bernard Foley. You've got guys like Malcolm Marks and then you've got Haru Tatekawa. It's played over 50 games for Japan. You're getting these guys that actually come up, the values and actually going right, this is who we are, this is who we believe we are, and I really felt that that was our big shift. But the big shift was understanding. Okay, well, if it's these six words, what do the six words look like from day to day, week to week? And that was the big shift was actually highlighting and showing it to these guys. I'll give you an example of the values that came out of it.
Speaker 1:One of them was growth. So growth was about in terms of how to keep growing our game, how does our players as individuals keep growing? And it was just even as simple as a video clip just showing these guys doing extras at the end of a session, because sometimes people might just go oh, it's just individual skills, but it's almost highlighting where, you know, I've even got the analysis guy just to film it. Just go. Hey, just for today's session. I just want you to film from a wider lens in terms of our individual skills, because it'd be amazing in terms of what you pick up on it and then you can really highlight that in terms of growth. I've just let's have a look at this clip. You know, one guy's having a connect, they're having a chat, and then bang, they've gone together, grabbed two, three other guys that are working on skill set, and then bang, and again there's a connection. But then there's your growth, which is quite powerful, and that stuff has just happened purely them just coming up with it.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, again, it was stuff like that where, um, you know, you know, one of them was was respect, one of them was was enjoyment, the other one was was love and care, and I think the shift was also again aligning it.
Speaker 1:But then we also changed a lot of our values into Japanese words, and that was the big shift, because a lot of these words were all in English, but then we translated it to Japanese. So the word love and care, the leaders came up with a word called Ajal, so then you could actually, you know, run with love and care for that week and the nice thing is, to this day now I've been away from that club for the last two years now those values are still there and it's powerful to see and it's just great to see in terms of the work that's been put in over my 12 years at Kubota to now where it is. Yeah, there's humility around it, but understand that it's in a good place because, again, these six words drive the company, I mean that drives the team going forward, no matter what. Yeah, sorry, yeah, that's taking you on a wee journey there.
Speaker 2:No, it's a great journey, mate. The bit I'm loving is the video aspect, because you used the phrase more on morals. Journey there. It's a great journey, mate. The bit I'm loving is the video aspect, because you used the phrase more on morals and when you show the behaviours that you want to see, I love it that you're not showing rugby behaviours, you're showing human behaviours of the values that you want to see right.
Speaker 2:And it's actually a note to all coaches about the value of showing a video of just hey look, team, look at this, Look how this one person infects this person and who infects those three people. And then they go about and do something together collaboratively and they grow together.
Speaker 2:And you've shown. You've talked no rugby detail. This could be any setting. This could be a workspace environment or a hockey team or a boardroom and it's the same principles space environment or a hockey team or a boardroom and it's the same principles. You show what you want to see and you highlight it, because if you don't, it's the same with anything that's public right, then it doesn't spread on. You've just created a contagious element with the video you've shown. It's super cool, yeah, super cool. And when you're talking about franz, you mentioned this off here and I've just noted it down like chatting him. He's big on coming full circle with stuff and you said that he would, every couple of weeks, check in with you to see how the values, how we're going with the values that you talk about.
Speaker 2:Is that something which stayed with you over your journey?
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, for me, it's allowed me, in terms of my journey, knowing that what's important for me it's understanding what are the values, what are the standards, what are the behaviours that we believe in as a team. Because, again, that sets us apart, that makes us different, that makes us unique, and I really feel that you nailed that part and I really feel that rugby will take care of itself. And again, I went into Wellington, but Wellington was already successful, but it was for me. I like to know in terms of, okay, if we're talking about love and care, it's a highlight that that is our values.
Speaker 1:And again, when I went into Wellington fortunate to at a great team that was already winning, but again it was like I want to know what are the values. So I changed the leaders. These leaders are your journey of years and your duplicates, and again they hold on to three values and to this day, well, just leaving now after last season, those three values that they've taking it through this year and that's the nice thing about it is the journey that I had with Kubota. It's been really clear in terms of my process around that and seeing it work again, which has been the rewarding thing about it, did you?
Speaker 2:take it. Did you just cut and paste those learnings?
Speaker 1:Well, it's the learnings, yeah yeah, but then again, it's understanding, knowing that, all right, I've never had a Julian Sevier at Cabrera Spears, but what does Julian want? Well, you know it's his team, but I've got to know what makes Wellington rugby Wellington rugby. So, again, they came out with only three key values, and again, that was driven throughout the whole 2024 campaign. So it was, yeah, it was, and again, no different in terms of the way you want to play the game. You know I challenged them in terms of you want to play the game. You know I challenged them in terms of, okay, the way we play the game. What is it, though? And again, now I'm coming in with only one year as assistant coach, going into head coach, and then dang, these guys have. You know, they already knew it. It was for me just being, again, the curiosity around it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, how was that transition from your first gig as a head coach you come into a very successful team. Your first gig as a head coach, you come into a very successful team. How's that journey?
Speaker 1:mate. How's the stress levels on that one? Yeah, my journey as a coach. I always wanted to be a head coach at some stage and I really felt quite well, quite confident about it because I saw it in France. I saw it because for me it's fortunate to have a head coach like himself, but being a mentor for me as well, I got the c in terms of the way he operated, the way he worked, which probably put me in a really good position to knowing that, okay, right, I've seen it unfold, I've seen it work. Okay, how can I put my own spin on it? So, for me, going into it was like, yeah, I'm actually, I'm actually ready for this. And again, just fortunate knowing I went to a run that was already successful. But again, yep, they can be successful, but, man, at the end of the day, you've got to drive them. So, yeah, I just think I feel like there's a nice blueprint that I know of. How can I keep building on that, if that makes sense?
Speaker 2:What sort of spin did you put on? What did you take away from, what did you leave behind from Franz Ludica and what did you take, and what's the spin that you put on your own head coaching?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel that if it was more of a spin, I think for me it was more the curiosity around going into, wanting to know that there's real class players there, there's a lot of super rugby boys there, so for me it was about the ability going. The answer's already in the room, if that makes sense. So for me it wasn't coming and knowing this is what we're doing, this is what I've done before, but understanding, knowing that, okay, right, I've got to adapt here because it was around an environment where these guys were actually coming up with it, around an environment, but also the way we wanted to play the game as well. So for me it's the curiosity, knowing that I've got all the answers, but I'm eager to learn and eager to find out. But I don't want you guys to actually take this, whereas I feel back in Japan it's a bit more kind of okay, right, I'm going to go. I'm going to go first. These first couple of steps, I'll take these, but I need you to come with me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:But whereas I feel here in New Zealand it's almost A lot of the players here at FUR and NZ. They actually want to take it by the horns and go.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:Whereas, as you know, in Japan it's a bit more kind of. I'm going to lead this first couple, but I need you to come with me.
Speaker 2:And that's just the cultural difference there, isn't it? And the rugby difference too. One's a national sport in a small country, the other's a minority sport in a pretty heavily congested country.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, that's it. It's the whole kind of culture around it. You know, your senpai kōhai, they're always going to listen to what a coach says. Oh yeah, I felt we broke that barrier at Kubota, you know, we really got everyone to own it and then actually to win it in 23.
Speaker 2:I think this is an important point Soaks just for our audience who haven't potentially been to Japan as the senpai-kompi relationship is, if you're older, you have all the authority, your word stands, and the younger person has to almost be a little bit subservient to the old person. That's the old school way of doing it, and so a coach ultimately has all eyes up and everyone will do what they say, and the expectation is the coach will say it and we will do it. So that's, that's the tradition. And you're saying you, kubota, broke that down, changed that a little bit, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, again, we had a leadership group at Kubota where I felt France identified a group and then his process was around in terms of these guys caught up regularly throughout the week, early in the week. In terms of what did the week look like? This is what the sub-theme looks like for the week, but it also came the back end of the week where you know you're, you're passing that torch throughout the week anyway, and then, and then these guys are delivering the messages, um, at your captain's run and also, and then running the cutter on game day. So I really felt that that that break down the barrier, because there was a mixture of a lot of foreigners, japanese players in there that allow them to actually lead. And then again, you know, as I mentioned, about that whole kind of what are the values, you know the whole kind of the love and care that actually broke that down as well, the key factor about looking after one another.
Speaker 2:Regardless of height and status.
Speaker 1:Yeah, regardless of status. I mean, you know you are going to get that humour stuff that happens in the locker rooms, that stuff is always going to be there. But the ability to give a voice for someone that's just come into the team and you know how do you make sure that that love and care stays quite well, it's one of your key pillars in terms of your values. Yeah, so I really felt we broke that barrier down. Yeah, because I just felt everyone had a voice at Kubota. You know, whether it was a young guy or in some sense, we will give. Well, sometimes we'll give, we'll give one of these young guys to run something at a meeting, you know. And then, yeah, that's the fun part around it is, it's not delegating, it's finding, finding a good group of leaders, because, at the end of the day, your right leaders, they're the ones that are going to really drive your environment, your values and the way you want to play the game.
Speaker 2:I actually love that phrase. Breaking down barriers Like for me too, that's an absolute joy. In coaching, you get to break down people's barriers in terms of what they think the sport should be and all the preconceptions that are potentially there, and about making this sport, particularly this sport, this combat, aggressive sport, a real catalyst and a vehicle for something bigger and more different which can actually affect lives going forward. So now mate, with that in mind, breaking down barriers. You then, after a couple of seasons of head coaching winning with Wellington Lions, you took up roles with moana, pacific and then the tonga. And talking about breaking down barriers, you're the defense coach. It's the ultimate. No one's breaking down barriers now, are they? So that's, that's the new rule. How's that journey be made? Like going into a super enriched culture. Both of those environments are. I don't know if you'd get more cultural importance in those two teams. Can you run us through why you went and how have you found those two teams?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've really enjoyed Bwina. First and foremost, I really felt it was a calling for me. I call it God's plan. I've got a vision board. I've got Super Rugby logo on it and it's just in terms of I see it, I visualise it. I've got the Ikale Tahi one on it.
Speaker 2:Has that always been there?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it has.
Speaker 2:So, just to clarify, you've made a board years ago with all the things you wanted to envision and you're working towards manifesting these things and having them in your reticulating articular system. It's there in the back of your brain. You've mapped it all out all the way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I've been doing it for years now and it's something for me. So my one is, you know, I did these quotes on it, but there's images on it and it's also got a little bit in terms of my why, you know why, what I do, what I decide to get up in the morning and do what I love to do, so it's all mixed up into one but it's you know, I feel like it's been a plan of mine to go down this track. And for the go-off track here, I spent a week off PD at Moana last year Not the season goal, obviously, and it probably gave me an insight to go wow, there's quite a nice feel for it. You know, we talked about in terms of your values, when you want to feel the culture, you want to walk in, walk out, and no, I felt it. And then I really felt that week knowing and I could feel something special here, and I see that with Tana, and then, obviously, tana should have tapped me in terms of, you know, if I was keen to do defence and I only spent a day on it, thinking about it and then committed to it. So I really feel like I'm at home.
Speaker 1:With regards to coaching, my purpose around coaching. I've got a lot of common connections. It's my people, if that makes sense. I can relate quite quickly to this person and I was just thinking about today. It's like there's a difference between knowing and understanding the person. If that makes sense, you might know in terms of what he and what, but it's understanding the actual contents of it, if that makes sense. So let's say, for example, I know this guy's living at a home where there's two, three other families that are living in that house, but the understanding part is no, no, okay, all right is far out. The house has only got three bedrooms, there's only one car, there's a drop-off, they've got a drop-off at KISS, so they've got a drop-off. This person here has got to work, go to church and then all of a sudden this guy's late to a meeting.
Speaker 1:So for me it's the ability going okay, knowing the person, but really understanding the person in terms of the wider context of it, whereas I feel I can connect to that and get a real good understanding of that. So for me it's yeah. Again, as we talked about those meetings, it's about starting in terms of the whole kind of care to connect, get to know that person first and then, okay, let's get into the rugby. So, yeah, I really feel like I'm at home in terms of Moana, and then that's obviously opened up the opportunity to coach at Tonga, which has been, yeah, the plan was to go down the next track, probably give Tonga the next two, three years.
Speaker 1:I've already thought about even four years Because you know again, as you know, as a coach, you want to get your hands dirty at super and feel it, but obviously it's come quite quickly. So it's, yeah, I'm really looking forward to it. In these next two months, I think there's going to be a lot of learnings. There's going to be some real good ones and there's going to be ones where, like, that didn't work.
Speaker 2:But again, it's the curiosity around the day that you get to learn I think that that word for me you've you've pulled up a couple of times so that curiosity thing, and I know from listening to you but also hearing you speak before, that curiosity is a value of yours. I just think it's amazing that you have this vision board and you're you've always been curious. You've always been out and doing PD, going, catching up with people, calling people at all stages of your career and it's almost no surprise that you go in to do a professional development at Moana and then not long after, that coach then rings you up and says do you want to come and work here full time? I reckon that is amazing and I think it's a cool thing for any coach to see to see that that can actually happen with curiosity. Like a cool thing for any coach to see to see that that can actually happen with curiosity. Like don't be afraid to get out there to ring people, to talk to people, and you never know where it goes.
Speaker 2:But one thing that you did say, which I'm really keen on, mate, is you said knowing versus understanding. Great concept, Really important concept. How do you, how would other coaches build on that, mate? How would you recommend understanding people better than just knowing people. How do you do that?
Speaker 1:Well, for me, I look at in terms of I reflect in terms of what happened in Japan, where there's, as you know, there's actually a contingent of Tongans that are there, but also Saracens. In terms of the club that I was at and because of where I had a common connection, especially with these Toan boys and also to the Saurican boys to a certain extent, because to be successful, those two cultures had to get on. They had to get on really well, the Toan boys and the Sauricans and making sure that these guys could connect with the Japanese boys. And it was understanding, knowing okay who are the key kingpins in terms of in that crowd. So you've got to go, you've got to be ballsy enough to sit down with them and have a chat to it, and one of them was Karate. But Karate was he's world class. You know when you talk to him he's full of values, he's full of care, he understands the connection part of it. So you've got to go for these guys.
Speaker 1:But when I look at these time boys, the understanding part is, again, it's your meetings, it's your one-on-ones, even off-site. Yes, you know some of these Polynesian boys where you know, having a one-on-one in a room just on your own can be quite daunting. For these guys, you know, how can you be real mindful around your one-on-ones? Hey, for these guys, you know, how can you be real mindful around your one-on-ones? Hey, let's just go down to a cafe. Well, hey, we'll connect somewhere else. And again, I'll go back to the time. It's going to take time and effort, and the effort's about in terms of, you know, making time to go have your coffees, invite them over for a dinner, bring them over Even a simple text for a birthday text. Look, I know you get updated texts in your group chats, but the ability to actually send a text to that person directly and then know happy birthday, have a good day. Blessings for more, for many more, that there is such a powerful connection piece as well.
Speaker 2:Is that mostly in the like? Is that a difference, for? Is it the same for everybody? Or is Polynesian cultures you need more of that?
Speaker 1:Well, no, I reckon it's both. Like you know, I think you should never really underestimate a simple text in terms of saying hello and a g'day and letting them know it's their birthday, like us. You know what I mean, yeah, but you know, again, it's the time spent with these guys Outside of rugby is the key to it. You really get to know these guys. You know it's those birthdays, it's those having a quiet beer, but obviously you've got to draw the line somewhere. But I think it's again, it's going to take time and effort and Obviously you've got to draw the line somewhere, but I think it's again, it's going to take time and effort and also, as I said, somewhere along the line, you've got to make a sacrifice to make this connection work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's really important mate and mate your journey. And what's the culture at the Moana Pacific? How does that? Because that's quite a diverse culture, even though it's simple.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is.
Speaker 2:How do you guys celebrate that diversity and what does?
Speaker 1:a day look like for you boys, in terms of the culture, yeah, we connect in the morning. If I was to talk about a pre-season, we'd have a coffee connect. It would be 7 am in the morning and it was purely just to beat the traffic to get into, to get into um willful stadium, yeah, which which is quite smart from tana, because you know, like it's right, it's a coffee connect. Everyone gets there and then from that 7 am and then even in season obviously not 7 am in season, but it's you know, we start off for, for, for prayer. You know we we get our mini groups to actually um, come up with a um, you, it could be a phrase from the Bible or you know anything really, and then you know that person might talk about it, you know for two minutes and then something you know that's uplifting for us, and then you know we'll get into a hymn and then we'll finish off with a prayer and then you know, then we're into our day. So that's our connection piece and it's done every day.
Speaker 2:Sorry to interrupt you there, mate, but what about players that aren't like? Are all players heavily religious in that Moana Pacific team? Is anyone not? No?
Speaker 1:I'd say there's a few that are not. And again, you know, we still get them to say something Like you know, someone like a Tom Savage he'll get up and he'll come up with a mini game. Sometimes we have a mini game in the mornings, mini team games.
Speaker 2:It doesn't have to be part of the gospel.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know you actually see these guys singing and for me it's uplifting knowing that these guys are buying in, which is awesome. Yeah, again, you know these guys are going into their second year but again, these guys are well-respected within the environment. One, they play real good footy but, two, they actually really buy into it. So, yeah, the environment, the day-to-day to it, is heavily influenced in terms of who we are. Tyler's got a real nice way in terms of the way he delivers his values as a team and we've lived to those values for up those weeks, which is quite nice. Got some real good rewards in terms of those games but, yeah, a lot of it's heavy related around our connection to the South of the Bay, which is really nothing to do with footy.
Speaker 2:And then, bam, then we're into our day. Love it, mate. How's been working with Tana Umanga? Probably the most iconic court black in the last 15, 20 years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, you definitely pinch yourself. It's more around knowing you're walking in and you're sitting there and you go like that's Tana Umanga. I've grown up watching him play and then you know you might have played a one NPC game against him, but yeah, he's again, as you said, very iconic and to me he's given us the freedom to really coach what we want to coach. He'll ask questions with regards in terms of what do you think you know around hair soaks or where can we be better here? So again, he's also got that mindfulness in terms of seeing it from a different lens.
Speaker 1:And again, you know, as I mentioned before, this was around he's got so much it's the power in his voice because he lets us coach, but the ability for him to pop in and pop in, pop out and deliver something straight away. That becomes a piece where a lot of the guys you know you can really dial in quite quickly. You know I might see one segment around the D, but Tana's actually seen this, which is quite nice, and then he might just pop in and go all right, let's just hold that, let's just rewind that, okay, let's just walk through this, and then you know straight after it. And then man, tana didn't see that. And even just letting him know, just, man, I appreciate you popping in because that's such a powerful tool, the ability for him to pop in because he's Tana Umanga, he's got that, he understands the game. The change of tone, the change of voice is also quite a nice way of delivering these messages. But yeah, I just like for the fact that he lets us coach, but he also asks questions.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:In terms of the way we're coaching it. Where can we be as coaches?
Speaker 2:I think that's a lovely tip for all coaches, particularly head coaches, is giving your assistant coaches real freedom and having the mindfulness to do that, and the fact that he's saving his voice to have impact when it's needed is a real skill set, and an experienced coach like him has that. He saves his bullets in terms of not firing them all the time.
Speaker 2:So when he does he wants them to hit and kill. I freaking love that, yeah, and the other thing which you probably don't appreciate but when you a heat coach like Tana, when you as an assistant coach say, hey, mate, thanks, appreciate those comments, appreciate you stepping in there, there's something that's a connection for me between the two of you as coaches.
Speaker 2:So it's not a resentment piece or a come on, mate, I'm trying to be good it's actually a collaborative piece of great teams is that the coaches are aligned, so it's very special that you're doing that Now, brother. It is coming up to the end, mate. I have one last question which I really enjoy asking mate, and this is it Last question which I really enjoy asking mate, and this is it what is something that you believe in as a coach that you reckon your peers or contemporaries would disagree with?
Speaker 1:I don't know whether to disagree around it, but I do agree in terms of having diversity within your coaching set up. You know diversity, you know you might have the guy that's in your coaching set up. That might not be technically sound but he's the right guy for the group. With regards to the connection part, could be technically sharper at what he does, but the ability that he could actually bring other skill sets to the table is really important as well. And then, knowing also the people in the room you know again I go back to that whole kind of these Polynes in the room.
Speaker 1:You know, again I go back to that whole kind of these Polynesian boys is, you know, for me, being in that room, I could quickly get to really get to that answer quite quickly with these boys, if that makes sense. Because then again, having that diversity, the guy next to me as a coach, he's learning in terms of what I'm trying to create there. So it's, and then again no different, it's that two-way learning process I'm going to learn from you, but then I'm also I'm hoping that you can learn one or two things from me as well. So that's where I reckon that whole kind of diversity part where it's really important just to have that balance, whereas again it could be quite heavy, lump-sided, but he might not be the right guy around in a certain part of what you want. But man, he's powerful doing this you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:So it's yeah again. It's that whole kind of getting the right people in the room yeah, well, here's a good, just a follow up to that, mate.
Speaker 2:One year we did one of those personality tests as a group of coaches. You know, when you get lumped into your this is your box, that you you are, and we got the whole team to do it as well. And then we split up everyone and then we we had a pretty diverse coaching group that year and we actually said we got our own traits. And then we said soaks, you're with these guys because they match them, they're your guys. And tom, they guys. And Tom, they're your guys. And Ryan, they're your guys.
Speaker 2:And I, as head coach, loved it because I actually went when there was an issue with a player. It was often like let's get Soaks to talk to him because he's that sort of personality type that he's probably going to connect with him best, because you understand rather than just know, mate. It kind of worked, mate, and certainly some of the connections you kind of went yeah, those four guys are very similar guys. They get on like a house on fire. So this coach is with that group because he's different to the rest of us, which you don't often think about, mate. You often think about your team, the rest of your team into it.
Speaker 1:But having a look back at the coaches?
Speaker 2:Yeah for sure I agree. Love it. Righto. Orlando, what a pleasure it is to have you on the Coaching Culture podcast and, if I may, I would like to just wrap up with my key takeaways from this conversation with yourself.
Speaker 2:So, if I may, mate, number one is create a diversity in your coaching setup. Now, for me, this is a cool statement that you said, because coaches are like pieces of a puzzle and if you have all the same piece, the puzzle is not going to fit together in the right way. So there's a real cool component around embracing and celebrating the differences of coaches, and that's something we don't always think about and we sometimes resist, but really know that you're working as a whole collective rather than just individual is a sensational coaching point. Number two is the more on morals comment that you said, and the example you raised was you showed a video of the behaviors that you wanted to see, something that wasn't quite obvious just by the naked eye, where you took a video of a group of players working together to do something, and it didn't matter what that was from a rugby context, you were just rewarding behaviors, not rugby behaviors, and when you highlighted that you get more of that and your focus point on more on the moral side is absolutely wonderful.
Speaker 2:Number three is knowing your product. I thought this was a great little learning you had early on in your coaching. You've got to know your product. As a coach a young coach, when you're starting up, knowing it is absolutely important. But then you went on to suggest that as you grow and you know your product, you flick to more delivering and selling that product. You actually referenced the postman knowing how to deliver your product and I thought that was a lovely little analogy, just for all coaches. You've got to know your product but then, once you know it, you've got to know how to deliver it, and that keeps us getting both sides of the game the nuts and bolts and the people side. Orlando Sokai, thank you for being with us, mate, on the Coaching Culture Podcast.
Speaker 1:Cheers Ben Awesome, I loved it.