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Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
James Doleman: How Referees Shape Rugby's Culture Beyond the Rules
When James Dolman steps onto a rugby field to referee a test match, he carries years of mental preparation, relationship-building, and self-reflection with him. In this revealing conversation with Ben Herring, Dolman takes us behind the scenes of elite officiating, exploring the psychological challenges that come with making split-second decisions under immense pressure.
"The struggle is trying to be a perfectionist," Dolman admits, describing the mental battle that follows high-stakes matches. Unlike players who can move forward quickly after games, referees often spend days analyzing decisions and processing feedback. This perpetual pursuit of improvement drives top officials, who Dolman describes as "one of the most competitive groups of people" he's encountered.
The conversation ventures into fascinating territory when Dolman explains how coaches impact referee performance. "A coach has a massive role to play in how their players behave, but also how their supporters behave," he observes. When coaches publicly criticize referees, they effectively authorize everyone—from players to fans—to do the same, creating what Dolman calls a "mob mentality" that undermines rugby's values. By contrast, coaches who communicate respectfully build currency that serves them well long-term.
Perhaps most compelling is Dolman's insight into emotional regulation during matches. "When players become emotional, referees need to become calmer," he shares, describing a philosophy that extends beyond officiating into leadership broadly. The most effective captains understand this dynamic, choosing their moments to communicate strategically rather than contesting every call.
Dolman's journey from injured player to World Cup referee offers valuable lessons for anyone in a leadership position. His emphasis on building mutual respect, focusing on process over outcomes, and modeling the behavior we wish to see provides a masterclass in handling high-pressure situations with grace and integrity.
Listen now to gain a fresh perspective on leadership from someone who manages conflict, communicates effectively, and maintains composure when surrounded by intensity and emotion.
A coach has a massive, massive role to play in how their players behave, but also how their supporters behave. So if a coach is openly criticising a referee and crossing the line, it just opens up all of his supporters and all of his players to do the exact same thing, because it's modelling the behaviour. We felt like you were cluttered at times in your decision making. We felt like your decision making wasn't as accurate as it could be. We felt that you actually had impact on games and not in a positive way. You're a coach that is really level headed, really clear in their feedback to referees and genuinely seeking clarity. Mate. Your currency and respect in our culture, in our refereeing culture, goes through the roof. I think that actually the struggle is actually trying to be a perfectionist, so trying to park, not being perfect, and that's the big struggle. So having this podcast and all set up in the garage working away and then the wife comes in looking for the keys, like man, that would trigger me in the past. Going darling, we talked about this.
Speaker 2:I'm on a call, welcome to Coaching Culture the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is James Dolman, one of World Rugby's top referees. From humble beginnings in Dunedin, where he trained as a teacher, to becoming a professional referee in 2020. James has gone on to officiate test matches in the Six Nations Rugby Championship and the 2023 World Cup and, most recently, the British and Irish Lions Tour. He's built a career on consistency and composure. A top man with a unique perspective on rugby. We talk about what it really takes to lead from the middle of the field. James Dolman, how are you?
Speaker 1:I'm good thanks, ben. Thanks for having me. That's a very nice introduction.
Speaker 2:Lovely to have you on, mate. Before we get into sort of the cultural aspect of referees and things, I'd love to know just how you got into this side of the cultural um aspect of referees and things. I'd love to know just how you got into this, this side of the game, because it's not a not a commonly tread path. How did you, how did you get in and how did you rise up?
Speaker 1:it uh, yeah. Well, I mean, like the first thing, the first thing I I think about when I was reflecting on this question is, first and foremost, my love of rugby led me to this job in the end. I never in a million years thought I'd be a referee. I wasn't running around as a kid in the backyard. I was certainly thinking I was going to be an All Black, and then somewhere along the lines my ambition sort of outweighed my ability, so they sort of fell on it. No, I got injured, mate.
Speaker 1:I got injured playing and through the rehab process, my dad who when he finished playing he became a community referee and he always said he wished he had started earlier. He just always enjoyed the camaraderie and giving back to the game and being involved in the game. So when I was coming back from injury, he just suggested mate, why don't you give this a go, come along to this sort of tournament? A little bit of a backward step. We lived in Asia, so we went to an international school in Asia and all of our rugby sort of came within tournaments. And so that's when he suggested suggested, why don't you come to this tournament, uh, and and give, give refereeing a go.
Speaker 1:And so that was my first sort of little um little taste of. It really was just refereeing a schoolboy tournament. Um, and I was, I was completely out of my depth mate, I was awful, I didn't know the laws, I don't know anything, but actually that that experience made me a better player, and so then I was able to sort of pick it back up a few years later in university in Dunedin. I love that, mate.
Speaker 2:It's actually a refreshing thing to hear about. The first thing you said was your love of the game, and sometimes I guess that's forgotten about referees because they're not on one side or the other, and sometimes you forget that you're giving back to the game in your own way as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's. It's a lovely reminder. Yeah, 100 made like if you. I think if you talk to any referee, the reason why that they got they got into the game initially is because they just they. They grew up loving the game. They potentially if you look at the community they don't necessarily maybe have the time to commit to Tuesdays and Thursday trainings, but they just want to be involved in the game on a Saturday and love that so much, so it's a great way for them to get involved.
Speaker 2:And when you got into it, did you sort of say I want to go as high as I can, or were you just sort of doing it as a bit of a hobby to start with? When was the point where you went righto, let's be really good here.
Speaker 1:Mate, I think from the very get-go not that first tournament, that first tournament I was like mate, get me back to playing. This was an awful experience.
Speaker 2:Oh really.
Speaker 1:Just in terms of like I was rubbish, I didn't really know what I was doing and I don't, I don't, I don't like, like being poor at something. So that was sort of confronting. I was like, oh well, I've been, I've been giving stick to referees for a while and then I went out and was one, so, um, but that that was a great perspective, uh, um for me. But right from, really right from the get go, I, I, I thought, I thought, well, I actually really enjoy this and I think, because of my love of rugby and playing it and basically living rugby for a very long time, like all of my memories really are associated with rugby growing up, whether it's just watching rugby with dad, the excitement for a test match, the feeling when the All Blacks walk out of the tunnel and do the haka that was something that I remember, those feelings, and so I guess that sort of from the very, very get-go of refereeing, I always wanted to be involved in the top games. I think that's what excites me about.
Speaker 1:The challenge is, whatever that top game is, whether it was the top game at club rugby. So you knew that the two best sides were going at it. You knew that there was going to be a club day, so there was more people there. Or first NPC game, first super game, right the way through it was always about trying to be involved in those top games and then, even when you got to a test match, you thought wow, I've been a test referee, I should be satisfied and happy with what I've achieved. It was like no, I want to be involved in the biggest test matches and the biggest games. So it's always been that sort of next step and always wanting to achieve more.
Speaker 2:Love that and I love how you start where you said you'd been giving shit to referees yourself. Yeah, yeah, and you don't like not being good at something. Do you reckon that is a personality type of referees? Is you want to nail this thing? Is that a personality type?
Speaker 1:Definitely at the top level. Because, at the top level, why do referees do it at the end of the day? Because, um, I, I think like there's a, there's a there's, there's two types, right, people referees will say they want to give back to the game which, which they've loved so much, which is is amazing, and I think initially why most people get into it, but then to to commit to so long and all the difficulties that come with refereeing at the top level, there is this sort of inner competitive nature of people at the top level. I think you wouldn't, as a general rule, you wouldn't, get a more competitive bunch of people than top-level referees. Is that right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. In anything we do golf, rugby, fitness law tests, all sorts.
Speaker 2:Wow, and what is that personality type? Because, as a general rule too, referees, the ones that I've met are all like yourself, highly intelligent, highly disciplined, highly determined people. Is that rule?
Speaker 1:true? Yeah, 100%. I think the determination and the self-determination is one of the qualities that I would associate with top-level referees, because it can be such an individualized and personal space so no one's going to go out there Like we don't have. I mean, we have coach and resources but we don't have somebody. That essentially what I'm saying is that our performance really rests on us as individuals. So for us to get better at what we do, we have got to drive and own that development and own our own performance. We'll be highly accountable by our management group, but really what it means is if we want to get better, we've got to put the time in. No one else is going to put that time in for us. So I think with anything, really the people that operate at the top level of what they do, they've got that self-determination around them.
Speaker 1:Do you work well as a team? Yep, I think that the biggest thing that we need to like it's interesting, like that reflecting on sort of culture piece and what this podcast is around like. It's an interesting dynamic within refereeing because it can be such an individualized sport where you know you're to achieve something. Really at the end of a four-year cycle there's one person that gets the Rugby World Cup final, but at the end of a four-year cycle, there's one person that gets the rugby world cup final, but at the end of the day, like you have to sort of take this as a as a rising tide floats all boats situation. You know, like the, the uplifting your peer is going to help you as well, because you're going to be uplifted by learning from them. They're going to be uplifted by learning from you.
Speaker 1:So I think that's that's the really important thing around the refereeing and the top space is actually acknowledging. Yes, it's an individualized pursuit, but actually, ultimately, our role is to serve the game, and so for us to serve the game best, we need to make sure that we're at our best. And how do we do that? Well, it's actually working as a team and making sure we've got alignment, making sure we're talking through things and learning from each other.
Speaker 2:Some bloody good quotes in there. The rising tide floats all boats. Jim Love that phrase and it's actually really fascinating how you say it's an individual pursuit inside a very much a heavy team sport and competition. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Fascinating dynamic to have that right A hundred percent. I think that's something that maybe people find interesting is actually the fact that you know, referees are driven by the appointments that they can get. So we love being involved in the big games and that's the thing is, like the dynamics. The interesting dynamic is that there's only a handful of big games that people go. So, yes, we're competitive with each other because ultimately, you know, there's six nations, there's 15 games. So at most there's 15 individual referees that can be given the game in the middle Rugby championship. There's 15 individual referees that can be given the game in the middle Rugby championship. There's 12. World Cup 12 referees go, seven ARs, seven TMOs. So you know, there's only a few positions that actually become available. So you're competing with each other.
Speaker 1:But the interesting dynamic is that even though we're competing individually, some of my best friends in the world are other fellow referees who technically you could say we're competing against um and that's, I think, because of the, the shared um, shared experiences that we've gone through. Uh, and you know, and that's that's the beauty of it, I think, the the interesting thing as well as in any given test match you have your own mini team. So in a test match we have a team of five um and and that's that's quite a cool experience too, because you you try and quickly bond over the week of the test match. Now, you might have worked with them before, you might not have worked with them before um, so the bonding becomes a little bit more important if you haven't worked with them before, versus already knowing each other and knowing each other really well um. So that's an interesting dynamic too, I think, trying to trying to make sure that the team of five is connected and ready to go with clarity going into big test matches oh, I love it.
Speaker 2:How does it get appointed? Do you get a? Do you get a phone call from phil davis, head of refs, or, or, and do you get the the other one? Sorry you didn't make it. Do you get those sort of calls? Is that how it goes?
Speaker 1:I've had both, for sure. I've had both. So, yeah, so we get a call from Joelle. So Joelle, who would be, you know? So Phil Davies, obviously been on the pod before, but you know he's the boss of the high-performance space and then he would, under one of his umbrellas is the referees and under one of his umbrellas is the referees. And then we'd have Joel, who's our boss, direct boss.
Speaker 1:So for for the appointments you'd get, for example, the British and Irish Lions series, they would have a video call with us just to explain their decision around why you're going or why you're not going, what we, what we sort of saw in your performances over the last 12 months that have summarized why you're going or, conversely, why you're not going, and therefore, then you've got direct messaging around what you can do better to make sure you're going next time, or the next selection window, or you know exactly that you're on the right track and we want you to continue to do that wow, what can you give us a little bit of insight like what sort of feedback have you got, like Anything you can share around that?
Speaker 2:Because I'd sort of be interested to know that.
Speaker 1:So the most recent one, the British and Irish Lion Series, was that in the data that they had been collating throughout my performances through the last 12 months is that there was high levels of accuracy. There were low levels of H of hids, which is high impact decisions. Higher high impact decisions are incorrect tries being awarded or incorrectly ruling out tries, um, incorrect yellow cards, red cards, um, or incorrect decisions that then lead to to big moments or or scores, um. So so really, one of the big metrics that we want to avoid as referees is high impact decisions. So I think over the last the last 12 months, I had one, one, one high impact decision, which was an incorrect card in a six nations game at the start of last year. So so that was that was. That was what they they talked about in that specific meeting. That was what they talked about in that specific meeting I've also made.
Speaker 1:On the flip side of that, I had the call that I was the 13th in the middle referee for the World Cup in 2023. So if you sort of listened to the numbers before, it meant that I didn't go as a middle referee. I went as the reserve referee and as an assistant referee? Yes, so I had that call and that was basically the call and the feedback I had around that, which was incredibly disappointing not to achieve, but really positive from where it got me and what it forced me to do. It was reflect on why I didn't get selected as one of the 12.
Speaker 1:So that feedback was look, we felt like you were cluttered at times in your decision making. We felt like your decision making wasn't as accurate as it could be. We felt that, um, you know, you actually had impact on games and not in a positive way. We felt, um, maybe, that your, your mind was cluttered and too concerned with overall getting to the world cup rather than going and refereeing the game, each game.
Speaker 1:Well, which I actually thought was really fair feedback at the time, because, because I was new to the environment, you're thinking how do I, how do I make sure I get to these big games? And and almost sort of not taking each moment as it came, so more focused on the outcome rather than the process, and that was that was really key for me, and actually going and keeping things now in in my process and what I do for building up for games and building up for seasons is keeping things really simple in my prep, making sure that I have complete clarity when I go out onto the field, um, and so that's been really beneficial. Uh, to keep things simple, focus on process, not outcome. Did you have to go search?
Speaker 2:search out people to help you with that, like that side of things, or how, how was that? You know?
Speaker 1:improvement made, yeah, 100. So we've got mental skills resources in place that we we talk through, you know, creating a season plan, making sure that we've got really robust processes in place to make sure that games go well and and also, when they don't go so well, why? So? You're always reflecting, always learning, uh, and then always implementing it in the next week well, I must, I must.
Speaker 2:I can only imagine that the that mental side of stuff is a massive component, because you would know all the rules inside out, you know the book, but then is is the other side of the game? Actually like same with sort of rugby coaching? Once you of rugby coaching, once you know how to do it, you know how to do it, then it's the people side how to deliver, how to connect and get your messaging right. Is that the same with referees? Once you know the rules inside out, then it becomes the mental game 100%.
Speaker 1:I think that when you get to a certain level, 90% of your work is already done. So you've got really good processes in place around your fitness, got really good processes in place around your law knowledge, you got the correct pictures around what a decision looks like, what it doesn't look like. And then the really critical part to making a world-class referee is actually that mental space. So dealing with the high pressures that come with test match footy, with big games, where you know essentially the match is decided by one decision, so you know it could be absolutely timed, you know everything going well and then it's one decision at the end which can have massive impact on the outcome of the game.
Speaker 2:Yeah, how do you deal with those, particularly the ones you get wrong, like that card you talked about. How do you go home and sleep at night? Do you sleep or do you stay up stewing on things?
Speaker 1:I never sleep after a game, if it goes well or not. So you know you just sort of. Yeah, it's one of those things that I can't really get to sleep after a game. You're wired, you're always, always thinking about what, um, what has happened and and how it can, uh, how it can play out. Um, sorry, mate, I think my wife is looking for the keys and it's distracting me, so I don't know where the keys are. Sorry, they could be in pockets.
Speaker 2:So yeah, sorry, sorry mate no, I love it live, live podcasting, yeah, well, actually, just just to the as a side to that which a lot of people um as nice little background to that is. The other side to refereeing is you. You travel, like I think you said 150 nights away last year, and you're at home. You have three kids, five years old, three years old, one year old. You're juggling 150 nights away from home in a year. That's, that's a side to the refereeing which is actually not seen right. Like you're a family man, young family, you've got to come home to all the stresses and strains of that, on top of all the stresses and strains of being judged publicly about one decision which you may or may not have got wrong. That's. That's a tough, you know, transition to be making right, or yeah yeah, yeah, mate, it's, it's, it's.
Speaker 1:It is really tough, like I um, I personally, like I fully, I actually really struggle with that too. So coming coming home and being able to park, the media fallout, the coach fallout, and also my own disappointment, like I said, alluded to earlier, I really like to be. I think that actually, the struggle is actually trying to be a perfectionist, so trying to park, not being perfect, and that's the big struggle. So for me, I'm dealing with that as well as okay, so we've clearly got a wrong decision. It's had an impact on the game. Your name and your face has been blasted through the media, through social media, and then you walk in home and the kids have no idea what's going on. They're happy to see you, but you're sort of. So you do struggle with that. I do struggle with that.
Speaker 1:I do struggle with that is coming back and being able to park all that um, because you know we don't, we don't just walk off the field either, and then the game's done.
Speaker 1:We've got our reviews to do, we've got our um, our feedback to give teams, we've got the reviews with our coaches, with our management, uh, and that all sort of drags out over the week. We, we, um, to get better, I think, in that space around making sure that we park one game and move on to the next. I know that teams do it really well, like the Monday review and then it's flushed and then you move on to the next. Sometimes, with the feedback and things going on in the background with referees, it can continue for three or four days after the game at the very least, and if it's a really massive game it can continue for a lot longer when you're still feeding back. So, yeah, iz has a little bit to deal with and I think she still hasn't found the keys. I think they're on the big thing out by the heat pump, on the big tall boy. Yeah, I just remembered that.
Speaker 2:So sorry, mate, she's got three kids loaded up in the car and ready to go so yeah well, mate, it is fascinating. But how do you park it, mate? Because, like you, walk down the street, particularly where you're living in new zealand, where rugby is an absolute. Everyone has their opinion and the opinion of referees is always critical, regardless how well you do, how you, how do?
Speaker 1:you park it Well, I think you have to get really robust in your own processes. So you have to really know do your review properly, and so your feedback from your own game has to come from how you're viewed it, versus if you're just after external praise. You're never going to win that as a referee. So with refereeing, it can become quite a lose-lose situation. You know, walking into a tight game, that one team is going to be angry with you and one team is just going to be like, ah, we won, it's all good. You know that's.
Speaker 1:The reality is that you're going to have 50% that are going to be pointing out some issues in your performance that have resulted in a loss, and if you don't have really clear understanding of what constitutes a good performance for yourself, then you're always going to be sort of chasing that feeling of a loss, chasing that feeling of a loss.
Speaker 1:So getting really clear on what a win is for a referee is, I think, really important, and that's some of the work that we've been trying to achieve is getting some metrics in place that are going well, this is a good performance from a referee. Yes, there's going to be some learnings. There's always going to be some things that you're going to take away from it. But this performance was a good performance because of X, y, z take away from it. But this performance was a good performance because of xyz and that's. That's um, uh, really clear in review. Then you can sort of go okay, well, every every little bit of sound and noise that's going on externally, it can't impact me because I've got now to move forward and referee another big game in five days time yeah, love Focus on internal feedback, understand what constitutes a win.
Speaker 2:That's probably a great philosophy for just life in general, right.
Speaker 1:I think so. Yeah, a hundred percent. And that's where you get a little bit older and you get more and more comfortable in your own skin.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right. That's right, yeah, and do you think the refereeing experience has actually toughened you up? Oh well, you know, thicken your skin up in general, in general life dealing with people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a hundred percent. It's definitely because refereeing forces you to do a lot of work around yourself and understanding yourself, understanding what triggers you. So, for example, like me having this podcast and all set up and in the garage working away and then the wife comes in looking for the keys, like man, that would trigger me in the past going darling, we talked about this, I'm on a call, I can't be, you know, and then um and then to come in so you just sort of understand like what, what, what triggers you in on the field, um, and then that sort of makes you forces you to understand what triggers you off the field, um as well.
Speaker 2:So it's sort of like a dual benefit really is the understanding of self so that you can you can monitor your emotions it's actually quite cool that you talk about understanding rather than just knowing, like when you know you know something, but understanding is you know, you work through those deeper reasons why that triggers you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean you could understand why, why you're getting flustered or frustrated in a moment. But until you understand it, what, what triggers that you're not going to be able to control that. So you might be able to control it when, when the game is 50 points and it's everything's pretty easy, and then somebody triggers you into something and you go, I can control that. But when there's pressure on, when you're mentally at your absolute limit and you know that it's one decision is going to going to decide the game, and somebody chirps you or somebody pushes one of your triggers, how do you control that? Or that's through, that's through the understanding around what, the, what constant, what, what triggers it, how you felt in previous moments around the same situation, and that sort of learning.
Speaker 2:What are some common triggers like on field, particularly that players or coaches do which they may not even know they do, which generally trigger referees?
Speaker 1:Well, I think. Well, I can speak, for certainly speak for myself. So the trigger for one trigger for me, for example, is that when somebody disagrees with a decision, that can be a trigger because it's like no, hang on, mate. I've spent all week making sure that I'm in my processes, I've got my processes in place, I've done my work, I've done my prep, I know what this decision is, I know the law well and you're coming at me disputing about a law and I think like one of the triggers there would be like well, hang on, I know I'm right and you're wrong, and then you go and try and tell him that he's wrong, and I think that would just add to frustration. That would certainly annoy me if I was a player, if the referee just sort of disputed what I was asking. So you know, I think, like we have to understand players can be emotional. It's an emotional game.
Speaker 1:It's you know, and that's the beauty of it why we have a job is because it's an emotional game and people get connected and people become emotional and passionate about it, whereas our job as referees is actually to be the most emotionless person out there if possible, and that's not easy because we're humans. But a trigger for me around staying in the calm space is that when players potentially can become emotional is actually I want to become calmer. So the more heightened a player gets, the calmer I want to become. And that's something that a mentor, colin Hawke, who's a referee from years ago in New Zealand, one of our first professional referees actually. He always installed that in us and he was a coach for a while. So everyone that's come through his sort of school or generation of coaching maybe has taken something from him and I certainly took that from him is that when players become emotional, uh, referees need to become calmer. You know that's that's our role on the pitch. Right is to be calm and and fair and equitable oh man, this is some good stuff here.
Speaker 2:For coaches, who are a good chunk of this audience, is is emotional game. That's why we have rest. The rest job is to be emotionless. The more heightened someone comes in, the more calm we need to be. Would you suggest that should be exactly the same as a coach?
Speaker 1:I think there's always a benefit for calm messaging. I mean, like I think there's always a benefit for calm messaging, but I also understand. You know, one of the things that I've really enjoyed in the last maybe three or four years is New Zealand. Rugby has pushed for us to be involved full-time in professional teams, which means that we can't referee that team. So, for example, I'm in with the Highlanders and I think you can't help but become emotionally attached to the team because you're wanting to win. So I understand when coaches are emotional because they're so invested in it. I think that the best type of feedback, or the best understanding of that, is that because there's an emotional element to the game, is actually understanding okay. Well, if I'm emotional or passionate or in a heightened state is, let's just leave the conversation with the referee until a later date. You know, and so you know. I think that's where real growth can happen is when we are calm and in a de-stressed situation.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think, that's a great one for life too, mate right, yeah, 100% yeah, I think that's a great one for life too, mate, right, yeah, 100.
Speaker 2:So now jimmy this. This conversation is around culture and and it's largely how we can improve our culture and some of that softer skills of the game or not just the game but of our leadership and things like that as leaders in anything. Have you got a definition of culture from your perspective and have you got any insight of, when you walk into a team room, whether you know it's a good culture or bad one?
Speaker 1:Yeah, 100%. I think my view on culture is I think it's an environment which is created through belonging. I think that you have to belong to something to have the connection to that culture. I think it's defined by the lived behaviours and values and I think it's pretty organic. I think it's created by the individuals that are involved and the leaders of that environment. They really dictate. You can sit down and talk about this is what we want to do, this is what we want to do, and then not do it, and I think you can see that all the time. But when you get true leaders that say this is what we want to do and this is what I'm doing, and then you can see me doing that, then that's where the culture comes into it.
Speaker 1:For me, I think, like we've already talked about, like the difficulty around some of the referee or the refereeing culture particularly, is that because there's no clear or there's no clear, I guess, common goal that everyone can achieve.
Speaker 1:That's one of the difficulties when we talk about a good culture in refereeing. But I think, when I reflected on this, we have a great culture within refereeing and not just within the environments that I'm involved in with world rugby and New Zealand rugby. I think those cultures speak for themselves around how close we are as a group and how much support we give each other behind the scenes, but also some of the structures that are in place around that that we can then really delve deep into professional development and growth. But I actually reflected on it more as a refereeing culture in general, and I think one thing that people maybe don't necessarily know around refereeing is that no matter where you go in the world, you'll be able to connect with people that are involved in refereeing because of the shared experiences and the shared, I guess um, you know sort of trials that we go through at times um yeah, but yeah, it was interesting.
Speaker 1:Um, and then your second second point around that, like, can we, can we perceive around the culture of teams when we go into the changing room? I think we get a snapshot of it. It's obviously hard to really say a hundred percent what that culture is like, but I I definitely can perceive a culture that is that is really really humming when I walk into a changing room and I can also perceive a culture that may be a little bit fractured and have different clicks. I guess it's just my perception when I walk into a changing room. So, for example, if I walk into a changing room and players are off because the manager will always meet us at the changing room and go okay, yeah, we're ready. It's always a defined time. So at quarter to quarter to seven at night we go and meet team x and I know when a team my perception of it, when a team is really on and really connected and really together, uh is when we walk in, the manager meets us and then we walk in and the whole front row is there standing waiting to talk with the key coaches that need to need to communicate. I think that sets a really professional, professional standard and um.
Speaker 1:And then I walk into other changing rooms where you know one props on the toilet and he comes out late. Sorry, ref, I've just washed my hands. Um, you know, coaches are all over the show. The players are not there. Then it's like, oh, have we got everyone? Oh, no, one person's out on the field already. Oh, we've got to go run and get them.
Speaker 1:And and that to me just sort of goes like, um, whether or not it's just a snapshot, but it just goes, it creates a little bit of disorganization and go like guys, this is literally on the run sheet that you meet at this time.
Speaker 1:So so for me that's sort of like one thing that I go man, man, when I see a culture really hissing is when I walk in and teams are ready. Teams know what they're going to say to me. Teams, you know, that's the sort of thing I guess, and it's only little small details, but you can sort of pick up on it. You can pick up on body language, you can pick up on eye contact, you can pick up on what they're sort of asking. If they're asking stuff about the other team, are they really um, driven around or really confident around what they're going to achieve. I think when teams go now we're just going to focus on ourselves, we're going to do this, um. And then when there's eye contact, when everyone, everyone is involved and shaking hands, like the behavior thing it's all small things, mate. It's really hard to sort of explain, but it's a feeling that you get.
Speaker 2:I think that's a lovely statement because I've seen that done where you know coaches bring in laptops of other teams and go look, they're doing this. Can you make sure? Yeah, it's an interesting phrase. You just point as are they really confident in their own stuff or they just whingeing about the other? Oh, that's a cool take from a refereeing point of view. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Do you have many of those? Yeah, you often have that, and the thing is we put some good processes in place at the top level around. Like, we can't have clips when we're walking into the changing room. We can have clips during the week, but they have to be earlier in the week and we can have phone calls. So I think there's some really good collaboration going on between coaches and referees at the moment, especially at the top level, driven through Phil Davies and Joel Jute just around um and obviously at Super Rugby there's some really good collaboration um through Chris Pollock and Brendan McKibben in Australia just around trying to make sure that we're refereeing the game, because essentially the game is refereed how the coaches um have fed back that information. There's always meetings around the shape of the game and what we're wanting to achieve, and the coaches drive that. We as referees then just have to adapt that with the law and go. These are our priorities, these are what we agreed to, so I think there is really good collaboration at the moment yeah, yeah, that is interesting.
Speaker 2:And so a lot of that collaboration leads to like because sometimes you see little periods where the refereeing at international level is following a certain trend, like presently a lot of reviews of tries and going back Is that something that's been fed back and given to the referees? And then you go away and implement that directive from coaches.
Speaker 1:Yeah, 100% referees, and then you go away and implement that directive from coaches. Yeah, 100 there's. There's um. You know, I don't know. I don't know the details of the timings, but I know that there's 100 uh shape of the game meetings. I I believe it's every year or it's it's definitely. It definitely comes in at the end of the big. The big shape of the game comes in at the end of the world cup cycles where all the coaches meet. All this, all the um and other other key stakeholders of the game, comes in at the end of the World Cup cycles, where all the coaches meet and other key stakeholders of the game with union CEOs. We have a referee's influence on that as well, but that's really where all the drive comes out of.
Speaker 1:So, with the involvement of TMOs now, ultimately we need to own the decisions on field as referees. That's the gold standard is that we get the the outcome. But coaches have said to us repeatedly they actually just want the right outcome, so they don't, they don't care around the tmo coming into the game when it's the right outcome. But where they get really frustrated is where the tmo comes in and it's the right outcome. But where they get really frustrated is where the TMO comes in and it's the wrong outcome. Yes, and that's the key thing. So the TMO isn't really the issue. The issue is when the TMO comes in and we get it wrong.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I can absolutely understand why. Well, what about in terms of coaches, Jimmy? About when do they get it wrong? What's some examples from your perspective of great things coaches do, but then also really poor things that coaches do which don't help the relationship, and things like that.
Speaker 1:So I think coaches the top-level coaches that I've experienced have been really good at making connection during the week. So we connect during the week and they seek out if there's any information that we have picked up in our prep, in our preparation around their team. So is there anything that they can do during the week to change the behavior of their team so that they don't get penalized in the game of their team, so that they don't get penalized in the game? So I think Phil Davies said on your podcast a few podcasts ago, around you know, just the top level teams are incredibly disciplined and discipline is one of their key metrics when selecting their players. And that's what I think, like the coaches are doing well is they've actually actively involved referee resources in their environment so that then when they come to us, they're just trying to finalize. Is there anything particular or specific that you've picked up in your prep that we can change to make it an easier day for you? But also we don't want to get penalized and give their teams entries into our 22 or points on the board. So that's one thing I've really noticed. I've noticed that the collaboration around coaches and with their captain and us has really been beneficial. So understanding, okay, what communication style does your captain want to use? How can we make sure that we get the best outcome with that? What don't you want to have as a referee, what do you want to have? So that's been really beneficial, I think, in building the relationship on the field with the captain.
Speaker 1:We've also started providing feedback straight after the game, just with our timeline. So rather than having the coach send in their review and their questions is we've gone out with our review first to just go look, we believe, on review, this is an error. We believe, on review, this is a non-decision. We should have blown our whistle here. We didn't. This is why I blew the whistle here. This is the outcome. We believe this is a correct decision. And then just providing some summary there and then if there's anything that the coaches then want further clarity on, then they can come back specifically and ask around that or anything else that we didn't have on that on that playlist. I think that's that's been beneficial in trying to help coaches under coaches understand um. We also also, as I mentioned before, we have a referee resource in each team, um, which has been been beneficial for them to be able to talk to that referee, but also probably understanding how we go about our preparation.
Speaker 2:A lot more too have you had a lot. I love that mate that coaches seeking this is international level coaches, uh seeking understandings from the ref, like during the week or the weeks leading up to it, to actually be proactive and correct stuff. Yeah, do you do, does, and obviously if they do it well, it sits well with you. Then you can understand why they're doing it. Do you have the opposite happen at times where they've come in um aggressively and said I want you to do x, y and z. You can't do they do the opposite to you as a referee?
Speaker 1:I think there's, there's always been the the temptation for coaches to put pressure onto referees. I think that, um, by, by trying to, to, maybe to try and block us into decisions that we must give, like that will benefit them, them. So, um, I think yes, I've definitely experienced it I think that gone really, unless you get a very young green referee coming into a new level, because once the referee knows what that level's about and knows what their game is about and their processes are about at that level, I don't believe that coaches can now put pressure onto referees. I think that we've gone through that, we've experienced that enough, that we've got now mental skills around that. So I think when coaches've gone through that, we've experienced that enough, that we've got now mental skills around that. So I think when coaches try to do that, it's almost like mate, really Like we're far past that now we don't react to it.
Speaker 1:I have experienced that where coaches will overstep the line on review as well, where you know like, then it becomes guys, what are you trying to achieve here? If you point out every decision that we get wrong or that you believe we get wrong, that's fine. We've already pointed that out to you. On this review. We're our biggest critics as referees after review. We're hard on ourselves, so I don't necessarily see there being a massive positive to going really hard on a referee on review. I think that the benefit comes comes from, uh, the pre-match and actually getting alignment around what a referee is seeing, versus going. This is what we're seeing, this is what you must do, um that that doesn't necessarily really happen anymore, I think on the vast majority, I find the coaches really really good to deal with. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think there's also a massive amount of bias in coaches post-game around. We did a little experiment where we had a good number of friends coaching at a high level and when we'd play we would often swap our referees' notes with the other coach and just because we knew each other well and so we would have 30 clips we were not happy with, but then so would they ones we hadn't even seen, because our bias was our own team and we were looking stuff that you know affected us, whereas the opposition coach shared their biases of what they were looking for. This should have been penalized. This wasn't, and it evened out and it sort of highlighted that a coaching lens is just pretty one-eyed whereas your lens is very neutral, very 50-50.
Speaker 1:100% and we have to be neutral, we have to be 50-50 in all our approach, right. So that's the key. But I do think, going back to like some of the best coaches that we deal with, some of the best coaches have that ability to sort of go, look, we got this wrong. You know, we think actually, some of them have actually pointed out some errors involving their team. Like, by the way, we don't want to coach this, we think this is a mistake by our player. That should have been penalized by you. That's just our feedback, so that's happened before. But really, the best coaches are the ones that have the ability to remove the emotion out of the, the feeling for the referee, so they remove the emotion, emotion out of it. They're they're genuinely seeking clarity, um, versus trying to point out mistakes because I think, what, what is the benefit for a coach to get that we can put our hand up and go we made a mistake. Okay, that's probably not going to reduce the emotion out of a coach or the frustration out of a coach. It's probably just going to highlight okay, yeah, the referee's made mistakes, whereas if they go look, we're looking at this, how can we be better? So, the best coaches in the world. How can we be better? It's not a scattergun approach of pointing out 30 clips. Look, here's five key clips. Here's 10 key clips that we really need clarity on so that we can get better.
Speaker 1:I think that's where the best coaches in the world, and how they operate with referees, really gets currency. Because I think if you're a coach that is continually providing poor feedback and worse, if you only do it when you lose, then referees just go. Okay, well, you're a coach that has lost, so you're potentially a bit emotional, you're frustrated about the decisions. We get it, we deal with that after most games. But if you're on the flip side, if you're a coach that is really level-headed, really clear in their feedback to referees and genuinely seeking clarity mate, your currency and respect in our culture, in our refereeing culture, goes through the roof because we can go man, this guy gets it, this coach really gets what we're doing and what he's trying to achieve, and that builds a better relationship. So, therefore, more currency and I think, probably more currency when, inevitably, a referee has a poor game.
Speaker 1:We all are going to go through that and a coach genuinely needs to provide feedback that that wasn't good enough. Well, okay, that can happen every now and then, but if you're one that's providing all the time, that wasn't good enough. That wasn't good enough. That wasn't good enough. Okay, mate. Well, you've provided that over the 12 best referees in the world. Who do you want next? Because you've done it for everyone, so that's it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. It loses its impact, doesn't it?
Speaker 1:Exactly, yeah, and that's the key is the best coaches in the world have impact when they need to have impact. That's right.
Speaker 2:And I guess it goes to all walks of life as well. As a parent, as a father, we can't be yelling at the kids all the time, because we want to yell when they're running towards a busy road and we want them to stop. Not just it have been heard so many times before that they keep running.
Speaker 2:Yeah 100% stop. Not just it have been heard so many times before that they keep running. Yeah, 100%, mate, and when you're talking about your words and and I, it's a really interesting one. You talked about that collaboration style with the captains and and getting them to have the best you know way to communicate with referees. What would you recommend coaches do and teach their leaders about communication with referees? What's some good tips leaders can get better at on field?
Speaker 1:Well, I think that the leaders need to be really knowledgeable around. The best leaders in the world are really knowledgeable around the laws and the processes that referees have to go through. So that's an incredible, incredible skill to have when you've been absolutely smashed at the bottom of a ruck and then you get up and you can articulate why this decision is not maybe in law or maybe this is out of process, or is this the process? Or you know when to challenge and you know when it's clear. When it's a clear decision and a captain comes up and challenges you about it, that sort of becomes a little bit white noise and then referees go. He's just going to complain about every decision. So now I need to put a marker in the sand like that's not going to happen today. We can't be challenging after every decision because that can potentially slow the game down. It can be potentially a really poor look for our game. So we don't want that to be encouraged at community level, where captains are just continually um, complaining about decisions of the referee. So so there's that context or the flip side, when a captain is really really switched on and goes. Man, I think this is an incorrect decision and understands that the referee in protocol can change the decision. Man, that that's where you go and challenge.
Speaker 1:So example like, I guess, recently I sort of don't want to point out too many specific examples of people, but recently England versus Ireland Mauro Atoje was really excellent in how he challenged a try. So the situation was he was caught in the back of a ruck and the clean out occurred where he was illegally taken out and he hadn't been talking at all through the game. He hadn't been talking and over-communicating, over-challenging. But as this try went in, he came up and he said I've been taken out of the back of the ruck and it's led to the try. So why that was such an amazing sort of example is one he wasn't, he wasn't just complaining about everything. So there was no white noise and no referee going nah.
Speaker 1:Nah, you're just complaining again about something that's not consequential or clear. Um, so you, instantly, now you're actively listening to him because he is coming with real detail. It's the first time he's come. He's come really specific around the infringement and and it's clear that we can fix this infringement. So what that did is we. We checked it with the TMO. It was clear that he was taken out. So we disallow the try and give the penalty to England. And I just thought just because I don't want to go into too many specifics around players, but I just thought that was that was a really good example of a captain being calm, clear and what they're what they're talking about, and clear that we can change the decision.
Speaker 2:So I think that's a that's a great example that is a great example of understanding the underlying process which you go through and knowing the the subtle triggers which will help help you as well, right, yeah, 100%.
Speaker 1:And that's the thing is, we actually don't mind, we actually really enjoy that challenge because it helps us get the right decision. So we'd be disappointed if we look back on that game and go man, there's a high impact decision there because a try scored that shouldn't have been scored, whereas now we've listened and actively listened to the captain, who's been really specific in the detail around what he's given, and then we can make sure that we get the right outcome for the benefit of the game.
Speaker 2:That's something I reckon we probably don't do as coaches. Enough is actually educate the value of understanding the rules and the process that referees go through to our captains and our leaders so they can communicate even more efficiently. 100 yeah, yeah, man, that's, that's a powerful one for coaches, I think. 100 yeah, 100, yeah, yeah, and it almost creates an environment between the captain and referee which is which is just a good working relationship too right. The opposite is like a naughty child type relationship.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, and that's the thing. We, as referees, need the captain's relationship because we need them to be the controller of their team, but we also need them for, you know, for this example, where there's clearly a wrong decision that we can get, and we also need to make sure that we are listening to them and actively engaging with them, and I think so that's one of our challenges, because if a captain's coming up a lot, there still might be a gem in there that we need to make sure that we listen to. So, even though I'm saying that we don't want captains coming up and creating just every time, still as a challenger is actually listening to them all the time, because that's our role. I think it's just an example of maybe if the captains were aware around how to challenge, when to challenge and the power of a challenge when it comes in the right time. That's the benefit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Love that mate. Power of a challenge when it's done at the right time.
Speaker 1:can be very effective?
Speaker 2:Yeah, 100%. What do you think about on the flip side and this is probably more so when you go back to sort of a grassroots level where you've got coaches on sidelines probably exhibiting horrendous behavior which is very common, shouting and yelling at referees? What would your advice be? Would it be the similar sort of principles around what that's doing to the referee on field? Is it doing the same thing?
Speaker 1:from this external voice, do you think I? I actually I think, um, I think that the referee, like the coach's behavior in general so not even just community rugby, but in general coach's behavior flows down to their team. So, so, whatever, whatever their coach is doing or saying, um flows down to their team and their team's behavior. And so, if you look back at talking about when you can tell a good culture from a culture under threat, I guess, rather than a poor culture, is when you're refereeing and players not just the captain, but players are actively arguing or or constantly um talking to you or challenging you or being slightly disrespectful. Um, I think that it's interesting at times.
Speaker 1:I've heard, when I've, when I've, when I've been involved in games like that, where the team is like that, and then I've spoken to individuals in that environment that I know around how the coach communicates and often some of the things come back as go yeah, the coach man, he, he said you guys were shit, you guys are awful, and blames a lot of the outcome on the referee performance.
Speaker 1:And I think that's a big, big risk for a coach to do is, when they start, start involving the referee and the team's performance, or or start openly, openly, um, criticizing a referee to their players. I think that can then permeate onto the field. And so a coach has a massive, massive role to play in how their players behave, but also how their supporters behave. So if a coach is openly criticizing a referee and crossing the line, well, that just opens up all of his supporters and all of his players to do the exact same thing. Openly criticizing a referee and crossing the line, well, that just opens up all of his supporters and all of his players to do the exact same thing, because it's modeling the behavior. And then I think that that's tenfold when you get down to the community level, because sideline behavior is just a mob mentality really.
Speaker 2:Man, absolutely it is, and I think that's a really good perspective around from your point of view as coaches. Behavior flows down to the team's behavior not only the team and players, but to the fans on the sideline as well. And just that concept of you creating a mob, you know an unruly mob and you know, as coaches, ultimately the rugby, rugby is the vehicle for driving good values and behaviors, because that's what rugby is about. So to create an angry mob, just by the way you're interacting on a sideline, that's a really disappointing aspect from a leader that's influencing a lot of people, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, 100%. I think like and you know, on the flip side, because we've seen over the history of rugby that that does occur On the flip side, when we see a coach having the opportunity to do that through media or post-match interviews and not taking that opportunity, I think that grows a massive amount of respect from that referee, because there's that element of trust where. Look, my feedback to this coach is not going to be leaked out to the media, or, you know, I know that this coach is really level-headed. He's going to come and ask some questions privately behind closed doors, but he's also not going to try and flick the pressure off himself onto a scapegoat which could be the referee. So I think that when they don't do that, a scapegoat which could be the referee. So I think that when they don't do that man, there's a massive amount of respect for coaches that don't bring it into the public.
Speaker 2:I think this is a really great one to hear, jim, about scapegoating. When you're blaming a referee, if that's your first point of call, you are scapegoating. You're trying to take the heat off yourself as a coach and you're trying to say it's that guy's fault and that that I think it's really important to highlight. That's what you're doing.
Speaker 2:If your first comment is something about the referee, you're scapegoating what you do because you're the coach and you're the lead it's, it's not an, the independent person here who's taken the emotion out of this game, and I think we forget that as coaches, and you see it all the time. It's the first reaction. Almost every loss it's the referee's fault.
Speaker 2:And like that's blame. That's blame culture, isn't it, and it's not good and I personally wouldn't want my children to have that. So why would I want like I don't want my children to make excuses and blame other people for potentially something in their control, and so why would I want it for my team? Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2:The other aspect, jim, which I'm really like I know you've got a few example here, as I certainly do is in that grassroots community level it's often volunteer coaches and it's often young guys like you were, um that are injured, can't play anymore or, you know, not good enough to play, but they love the game, they want to give back, they step out there in the middle and they just love it and they're good young people that want to give back to the game.
Speaker 2:And then they get bombarded with all this criticism and they don't have at that age that ability to have mental skills coaches or go through that process and and I've known a couple of coaches that have actually had to leave because of the how, how hurt, and they didn't want to step back on the field because all these old, old boys of a club have got into them on the sideline these, these 60-year-old men are abusing an 18-year-old who's doing his best to give back to the game and do you have examples of that? Because I think it's massively important to highlight is the impact your words on a sideline, as a coach or even a fan, can have for the guy in the middle or girl in the middle.
Speaker 1:Yeah, 100%. I think it goes back to the reason I got into refereeing, which was for the guy in the middle or girl in the middle yeah, a hundred percent. I think it goes back to to the reason I got into refereeing, which was for the love like, or or. I guess the reason I got into rugby first and foremost was I loved rugby, right, and so everyone that's involved in rugby loves rugby Like it's, it's a, it's a. You wouldn't, you wouldn't be involved in it if you thought rugby was okay or you were just like oh yeah, that's all right, I can give or take rugby.
Speaker 1:There's a deep passion for rugby and I think the risk with referee abuse and why? Because, first and foremost, I'm really conscious that we as referees have a role, especially at the top level of the game, to be held to account and we are held to account within our environment around how we perform. There's heavy scrutiny held to account within our environment around how we perform. There's heavy scrutiny on our performances within our environment and therefore that impacts our selection and future employment. So, first and foremost, we have to put a hand up for that.
Speaker 1:The conversation, more so around referee abuse, has to come from the actual fact that we need to protect our game. So if a referee is coming through and they go well, I've actually fallen out of love with rugby because of what people within rugby are doing to me and that pressure is flowing down onto me. I think that's the really critical part, that we as a game actually have to have a conversation around or keep at the forefront. Obviously, we've seen recently one of the rugby unions in New Zealand had to postpone or cancel a whole round of rugby because of referee physical abuse and threatening. So we don't want it to get to that point because actually without the referee then we can't allow the players to play the game. And that's the critical part is that if we get to the point where no one wants to referee, well then there's no game because we can't actually do it unless we go back to the days where the two captains agree. But good luck trying to achieve that.
Speaker 2:That's where you bring back rucking, isn't it Jim?
Speaker 1:I bring back rucking yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no rules, just law of the jungle. Exactly, the old street fight comes back. Yeah, mate, it's absolutely right, mate, like yeah, we've got to look after those that are putting themselves in the middle, like yourselves, especially at the community level, where you're out on the island there a lot of the time, you're often walking into some pretty hostile places and you want to keep the integrity of the game. That that's not happening because that's not the game. That's why rugby is so loved around the world that it is a values-based, respect-based, honorable game which has a huge physical and emotional component absolutely.
Speaker 1:I think you talk about the rugby culture. That's the big thing. It's like let's get back, like let's make sure that we don't lose the rugby culture, which is the element of respect. Like there isn't. Mate. I grew up and I played football as a kid as well, and there would be no chance of me refereeing football because I couldn't deal with. I couldn't deal with the way that that's refereed and communicated between players and referee and the culture around that. So I think in rugby we're really fortunate around that. That's actually a fundamental behavior and value in our game, and so it's just making sure that we constantly keep that at the fore, because that's a crucial, crucial part.
Speaker 2:Absolutely right, mate. We are the preservers of great value, both coaches and referees and any sort of leaders in the game. Absolutely, Jim. This has been a wonderful chat. We've got now time for one more question, and the question is this Is there any part of the game which you believe strongly in that you think your contemporaries or peers might disagree with?
Speaker 1:It's interesting. I think I hope we're pretty aligned as a referee group. But one thing that I was thinking about and actually it's probably it's actually naturally occurred just on the chat that we've just sort of had. But I think respect is earned, so respect is not a given, so respect is earned, okay. So respect is not a given, so respect is earned.
Speaker 1:And what I mean by that is that we as referees can't demand the game to respect us and demand the coaches to respect us and demand the captains to respect us if we don't provide that respect back and actually earn it. And I mean by that is that players can be respectful without having to respect us. If you're behaving in a respectful way, then that's great, that's the values of our game. But we as referees have to do something, and that is be respectful of the coaches, respectful of the captains and respectful of the players.
Speaker 1:I think where frustration can grow is when we get into the potential for referee to be a school teacher type tone or the policeman mentality, and that can just lead to frustration. So I think the big thing that I try and do every time that I'm out on the rugby field and I don't always get it right because of the high pressure and that, but is try and be really respectful and engaging with the captains and the players and actually encourage them that I'm really happy to talk to them, really happy to try and understand what they're asking. And same thing with coaches, as I try to make sure that if I have made an error or mistake, that I am open to explaining that that has happened and I think hopefully over time that respect and that mutual respect can develop. But I definitely don't demand it walking into the first time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I see it's actually funny. You say that because I remember a friend of mine, paul Tito, had the role for a little while of giving advice and feedbacks to referees and how they walk into the room.
Speaker 1:He's still pretty much not that role, mate, I think.
Speaker 2:Oh, does he.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's still got that role with the Blues mate. He still likes giving the feedback.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and one of the ones he said to some of the referees was exactly that when you walk into that change room, don't walk in there like a policeman. You've got to earn the respect by the way you walk in and I think that phrase that you said be respectful without respecting us is a good start point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree 100%, and that's the thing I often try. Whenever a young referee is asking for a little bit of advice, I just try and go. Mate, you're the 31st player or you're the 31st man on the field, you're not the first. It's not about you. Just let the players play, try and be as respectful as possible. There's moments where you're going to have to be strong and and make a decision that players won't like from one team, but that's the role, um.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I think those are really wise, wise words from fish there he is a wise man, jimmy, wise man, j Dolman, it's been a pleasure having you on Before you leave. I just want to sum up my final thoughts from this awesome, insightful conversation around an area of the game where we don't often have these conversations, and these are them. Number one brother, coach's behavior flows down to the team's behavior. Now, open criticism leads to the players and fans modeling that behavior and potentially creating sort of a mob mentality. And we talked about today that scapegoating nature that we never want to be. That as a leader and a coach, is scapegoating to the independent person who is the referee. So our behavior, the way we interact as leaders and coaches, flows down to everybody else and we want to model fantastic behavior.
Speaker 2:Number two is this concept of trying to park being perfect. You raised it as a refereeing perspective and you had a lovely phrase about understanding what constitutes a win for you with your own internal feedback. I think that's lovely for coaches and leaders of any sort to take on board as well. Don't worry about being perfect in everyone else's eyes. Have your own critique and your own measures, which really leads to you being the best version of yourself. And number three, you raised the concept that this is an emotional game and that referees have to be, on the whole, emotionless, and the more heightened someone is on field, the more calmer referees have to be as well, and I think it's important to note as coaches and leaders, we've got an element of that. As well as removing as much emotion as we can, as often as we can, to again model what we want from our players to be. Love that, mate, jimmy, what a pleasure having you on the show. As always, wonderful conversations.
Speaker 1:No, you're a legend, Ben. Thank you so much for having me.