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Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Jim McKay: “Becoming a Coach, Not Just Being One”
What truly defines a coach's legacy? For Jim Mackay, it's not the championship trophies or international honors – it's the journey of becoming and the meaningful experiences along the way.
In this enlightening conversation, Jim shares his remarkable path from coaching amateur clubs in England to leading the Queensland Reds to Super Rugby glory and eventually becoming Australia's attack coach. His story is a masterclass in resilience, culture-building, and authentic leadership.
Jim reveals how he defines culture as "how we're perceived and how we want to be perceived," emphasizing that values must emerge collaboratively rather than being imposed. Through vivid examples from his time with North Walsham, the Cornish Pirates, and the Reds, he demonstrates how connecting team identity to local history creates deeper meaning and belonging.
The transformation of the Queensland Reds offers particularly valuable insights. Working with young talents like Will Genia and Quade Cooper, Jim helped shift a losing mentality by raising awareness, teaching game management, and building relationships. This player-centered approach, combined with clear strategic frameworks, turned perpetual losers into champions within two years.
Most compelling is Jim's perspective on setbacks. From club closures that left him jobless to the challenges of coaching internationally, he views each difficulty as formative rather than definitive. "A coach's journey is not one of being, but of becoming," he explains, highlighting how experiences – good and difficult – shape your evolution as a leader.
Whether you're coaching at grassroots level or aspiring to international heights, this episode offers profound wisdom about leading with authenticity, building culture intentionally, and finding meaning in the journey rather than just the destination. Listen now to transform how you approach coaching and leadership.
Yes, I coached Australia. Or, yes, I won cups and had promotions and we won the Super Rugby. I don't want to be defined by that, it's more the other stuff. Get the boys out there to look at that and understand the history and connect your culture, identity with the area. I always thought winning was enough all the time, but I thought that was the answer to everything and just keep winning. But the things happen, stuff happens. If you improve the players, that can help your team do well and then, if the team does well, the players will do well. A couple of times I was at no job. What the hell am I going to do now? My dream seemed so far away.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Jim Mackay, and he is an absolute legend of the game, a true artist of the coaching art. He has coached at every level throughout England and Australia, working his way up the ranks until ultimately getting the premiership with the Leicester Tigers in England. Then he returned with the Queensland Reds and spent four years building them up to win the Super Rugby title with the likes of Will Guinier and Quade Cooper. He was then selected as Australian National Team Attack Coach and did a wonderful job. Since then he's been all over the world again and if you ask anybody that's been coached by Jim, they absolutely love him because he is a true players coach Gets the very best out of people. Here he is, Jim. I would love to know how you define culture and what it means to you and specific steps you've had along the way with it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no worries, I think it's two things. I think it's how we're perceived, how we're perceived as a group by others, which is subjective perceived. How we perceived as a group by others, which is subjective. But when I think about culture, when we're trying to create it or build it, it's about how we want to be perceived and that can apply to any group or organization and that's something that's ongoing and that we work towards.
Speaker 1:So, for example, when I was working at the Reds, queensland, like I'd spent so many years trying to get to that level and I actually remember the first day, I remember that nearly every day. Like you go in there and you have a feeling, like you just feel about, feel about a place and you feel special to be connected to it and proud, and so for me that was how you feel. And then also, if you go to a place and visit say, I spent time at Carlton down in Melbourne, the AFL and the Melbourne Storm and you go to them places and it's how they make you feel as well. So you know everyone shakes your hand there At Carlton they introduced me and another guy who was there. I just thought and we met the CEO. I just felt that's how you perceive.
Speaker 1:My perception of first going there was that you get a feel of a place. But then when you're living it yourself whether you're a supporter, a volunteer, a worker it's what you feel about that place and you're pretty clear with what you're trying to, how we want to be perceived. So we're working towards that and you feel a part of it. So you feel like you belong. So that Owen Eastwood book about a sense of belonging. I think that's really good. You feel a part of it. It doesn't matter what level community, rugby or international but if you feel a part of it and that you belong and you're contributing, I think that's a pretty good space to be in. So that's how I would define it really.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that Eastwood book Belonging is an excellent book for culture, isn't it? It's beautifully written. Now. So, jim, you reckon, just when you say perceived how you're perceived, is that perceived, you reckon, by anyone that walks into your organisation? Is that essentially what you're saying and it's the feeling they leave with as part of how you define cultures?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's very subjective. Subjective, like what other people think. So, um, you go to a place and what do people think about us? Now, what would they say about us? Um, and so you might get all different answers where, depending on where we're at, and then then you can dig in, dive in about well, okay, that's our history, this is us now, what, how do we want to be? What do we want to build? What do we want to build? What do we want to be perceived? How do we want to be perceived? What do we want people to say about us? And that's like an overarching vision, really, as simple as it may be, and then from that you can evolve and dig into some of your values that you want to do.
Speaker 2:What values do you have, jim? You've had like three decades now of coaching rugby. What are some of the big ones that stand out in terms of values to help underpin cultures? For you, I just I think.
Speaker 1:Um, so obviously the role of a head coach and assistant coach is a very different. Um, when I first started coaching, I wasn't really aware of all these things. I I coached. I probably focused more on a way of playing positive self-belief. This is how we're going to play, we're going to get better and attack and we want to win. You just assume we want to win.
Speaker 1:I think when I first started playing and sorry, when I was playing a long time ago now in the 80s, 90s, and then first started coaching, we didn't really talk about them culture, sort of things. Um, rod mcqueen was our coach at moringa. Um, as you know, world cup winning coach. He. He bring a real business um mindset to it around. He connected the whole club. So, um, we wanted to be club champions. So every player felt they were contributing to that. So I thought, in a subtle way, that was probably my first exposure to connecting a whole club. Yeah, but now when I go to a place, I'll go. Okay, how are we perceived? What do people say about us? How do we want to be perceived? But then the actual art of coming up with a couple of values as such, I think that everyone should have a contribution to that. It can't just be yours, that you force upon. So, for example, at Noosa, where I am at the moment, community country rugby I've got the committee and past players and the current players and we workshop this. But it took about a month, a series of four meetings, to do it. So I think it's something that I didn't want to rush and I wanted everyone to have an input from it. So they felt they had a say and they contributed to it, and so small groups was really good, and then I sort of grouped a couple of words and um and and just, and drew some examples of that so that could encompass, you know, on field, off field, how we act, but the simpler the better.
Speaker 1:Um, then the next layer is is referencing it like feed it, like a plant or a flower or anything you know. You got to invest in it and nurture it and refer to it. So it's got to be so simple. It's simple enough that, um, you can, you can, um, keep keep referring to it. So how did we go on the weekend? How are we going? Like you know so, and you just keep talking about it. So it becomes important until it becomes annoying. Yeah, and you want to highlight, um, some some great examples, like, of people doing things, like we've got some guys out there that work with their mini juniors and you've got people that mow their fields and all that sort of stuff. So you want to reference that and I think that's really important. And then, when we fall short, you want to highlight that we've still got some work to do, you know.
Speaker 2:I love that phrase, mate. There's actually I like this quote that you repeat something not till they know it, but until they can't forget it. You just keep repeating and repeating it. I actually loved how you talked about that being an art form, coming up with the values and like it is a creative process. Isn't it Like to come up with them and then to nurture them and grow them and and bring people into them and make it a bigger thing it is.
Speaker 2:It's not abs. It's an abstract sort of thing, isn't it? It's, yeah, piecing all the pieces together. One aspect made that I was really interested. What you said was there's a difference between a head coach and an assistant coach when it comes to creating the cultures. What do you think the difference is there for the two of them?
Speaker 1:I think it really should be led by the head coach really, and as an assistant coach it's probably not, you're possibly not a main driver of that I guess the head coach will set out the outline and the vision of where we want to head. Yep, um, and it's, it's, and you've got to support him in in that space really, and then be a yeah just this feedback.
Speaker 1:But I think, uh, when I started, obviously ewan mckenzie was my coach for six years, so I didn't really pay attention to this sort of stuff as much, and formerly I was head coach and then back head coach again now and then in Japan, et cetera. But I think when you're suddenly head coach, you realize that this space probably starts and ends with yourself. You need to set it out, and even where I am at the moment, like community club rugby, it was really important, and then you know how we're perceived and how we want to be perceived. So I'd encourage people to have a go at it, but just keep it really simple, yeah.
Speaker 2:It is fascinating, mate. I love the little tangents we go off on these chats, because culture is something that is. You need to go off on these little tangents because sometimes you pick up on something, something you said there, mate. You just referenced the community country rugby you talked about, and now you've been coaching for three decades and you've gone all the way up you talked about. Now you've been coaching for three decades and you've gone all the way up.
Speaker 2:You've had your formative years and I think you called them your championship decade, where you won a lot of stuff. Then you got really pumping and you had huge success with the Reds and then ultimately, you were Australian national coach which, as is understandable, is your dream and then can you just run us through like how you've managed to do that and what you've tweaked and done along the way. I think your story is a fascinating one, particularly because you've built your way up from grassroots rugby, and that's very rare in today's professional thing. I get a lot of coaches come to me and say how do you get your foot in the door? And you're the example of how it's done. So what?
Speaker 1:do you think? Yeah, it is literally grassroots to international. So I think, when I reflect back, I reckon it's really defined. Yes, I coach my country, which is what I wanted to do, but if I look back and try and define the journey, it's more about the interesting things and experiences that happen along the way. So you get these levels and you win stuff, which is which is great and it's awesome, but it's really the, the stuff that happens in between the experiences and the interesting things that happen along the way. So, of course, like you say, you coach, coach for a long time. So that's what I look back fondly with that at each club and the experiences I had, things that happened, and them experiences get carried forward with you as you go and stay with you.
Speaker 1:So it's not just purely, yes, I coached Australia, or, yes, I won cups and had promotions and we won the Super Rugby. So it's not. I don't want to be defined by that, it's more the other stuff. I think what's that stuff, john, be defined by that? It's more the other stuff. I think, um, what's that stuff, jim? Um, just the people you meet and and the and the, the, the joy of, of helping players improve. So I never played for australia and my my dream was to coach them.
Speaker 1:But now that I'm coaching, I liked helping other people to get better. So particularly if, um, they do represent their country, I it's a great joy to help someone to A believe in themselves, come up with a plan. How do you want to get better and work with them? But for me, even at grassroots, it didn't matter, just trying to help a team and a club come together and improve. So, okay, we're this team.
Speaker 1:Yep, great, I want to win. This is how we're going to do it. We're going to be positive. We want to play a style of rugby that's enjoyable to play, and when people come and watch, we've got to inspire them. So that's whether it's the Reds or country rugby, anything. So that's a starting point and let's go. So you know, I've always done that where I've been. So I guess, chunking it up, like I say, there was 15 years in England and then I had the four years in the Reds and then the two years in the Wallabies when that dream was realized. But when I was in England the first four years, I hardly lost a game as a coach Promotions and cups, and that's where the dream was planted to say okay, I want to coach.
Speaker 2:Australia. But yeah, I'll jump back. You moved around a little bit in England too, didn't you, jim? It wasn't just one club. You were at Norwich, north, walshman, stourbridge. You were with different ones. Did you just have enough of each one? You were winning too much and you just needed to change, or what sort of happened there?
Speaker 1:Well, there were so many lessons. Every club there was lessons. So North Walsham for example, we had promotion and highest. Every club I was at actually I don't mind saying, but I think that's why Ewan identified me they went to the highest they'd ever been. Walsham, for example, promoted highest they'd ever been, but the club actually didn't want to get promoted again because they weren't ready for that. So at that level if you get promoted, you got to ground has to meet certain criteria and you got to more travel. So not in their wildest dreams they thought that we would be able to go another promotion and they just weren't set up.
Speaker 1:So what I learned there? That in england anyway, that and all clubs, the, the club itself off field, and then the coaches and staff which I was leading, and then the players need to be aligned, like wanting to head in the same direction. So there I had a good staff like that was all amateur and then players and we were up for it, but the club weren't ready for it and that's fair enough. But I failed to be attentive enough to understand that at the time. I just assumed that you always want to win, so yeah. So then I went to Henley and we had two promotions in a row, um, and so everything was flying along. You know, like um, and I learned there at a club that was semi-professional but players want to play, so they working but also pla, training and and playing. But they'd rather play second seam than be on the bench for a couple of weeks in the first team because they've got to travel and you might get 15 minutes or something. So that was another lesson there and we wanted to be the best semi-professional club in England, which we achieved. So I think you've got to pay attention when you go to a club, what they're about, where they're at and then where they want to head. So you need to do a little bit of homework before you embark on these new things. I just assumed I was a bullet at China shot, just thinking you want to win and if you win everything's going to be okay.
Speaker 1:Yep, but getting back to the journey, my playing background was at Moringa and Rod McQueen was our coach, which I've already alluded to, and he did a really good job of aligning the whole club, first grade to sixth grade, and we all felt a part of it and we were club champions. And then I went to Randwick and they had a completely different philosophy and Bob DeWaio was our coach and Alan Gaffney and they had a total like almost total rugby belief about running the ball. Ironically, at Randwick there was people like Ewan McKenzie there. Eddie Jones, michael Checker, myself and others have all gone on to coach and we were club champions as well. I played first and second grade.
Speaker 1:I was never a superstar, but what that started for me was that coaching and playing, you can have a different philosophy or a different club, but it can still bring success. So immediately it opened my eyes that there's different ways of achieving things as a club and a playing style. So there's no one way, as Bruce Lee would say as well. And then, like I say, I just plugged away in them championship years in England and what a great experience that and you'll know from your time there at Nottingham, et cetera.
Speaker 1:There's some wonderful clubs and just the sheer volume of games promotion, relegation cups, the weather conditions and some of these teams are really really good at like, say, mauling. Plymouth were really good at mauling. Other teams just had a good pack and a good 10 and so you got to navigate your way through these competitions and, um, find a way, and it was just a great grounding with a a whole lot of games. And then um, and, like you say, went to the reds and that was terrific, which we'll talk about later, I'm I'm sure.
Speaker 1:And then when we went to this Capstone, when we played England at Twickenham, after the game Stuart Lancaster was the coach, who I know pretty well, and then Kevin Bowring, who you may know from the coach so bless him, he passed away recently but he was a really good fella and Andy Farrell and that were there. But after the game they gave me a signed England shirt, presented it to me and said oh, jim, we see you as an English developed coach and we talk about you. I'm not talking about myself because I don't like doing that, but they said in our coaching courses we talk about you, that no matter how low you start, you can get there and get all the way through. So the pathway is non-linear, there's no clear pathway, but they said that they referenced me in the sense that you can get there.
Speaker 2:Do you believe there's no clear pathways for a coach wanting to proceed? Believe there's no clear pathway for a coach wanting to proceed through the ranks? Essentially, is there a clear pathway, or is it? What is the pathway for someone that hasn't got a background in professionals rugby to crack it to get to the highest level? Is it just doing well, getting the results at each level?
Speaker 1:I, I think, um, for me in reflection, um, there's definitely some big lessons learned and decisions I made along the way and, like I said at the start, it's more the experiences and the things that happen along the way that that's what sticks with me. But there's no, because I always thought winning was enough all the time and I thought that was the answer to everything and play positively and just keep winning. But the things happen, stuff happens. Stuff happens out of your control.
Speaker 1:So I was at three clubs um, oral, uh, rotherham, who who the owner at oral? Wigan? Um, the owner just sort of sold the club really and and they play at a school now and then we're all out of a job. And then we go to Rotherham, kind of under false pretenses, and we trained for 12 weeks and didn't get paid and then we didn't play a game and then the club went into administration. So there's been some huge roadblocks and you're just thinking like, okay, I've left my girlfriend, I don't know anyone in this area, I'm really I'm working with full-time players and I've got no job, and so you just got to that dream that I had never left me and you say you got to show a lot of resilience, but also you've got to manage those who were talking about before for your family or your partner. So, yeah, all my decisions were geared around trying to coach Australia, but there's stuff happens along the way.
Speaker 2:Did you move to England for the opportunity to coach professionally, semi-professionally, which wasn't available in Australia? Is that the big part of the drive to go over there.
Speaker 1:I'd say it was more amateur to go over for the opportunity. All the superstars were going to France and Italy at the time and I had the opportunity to go to England and I just embraced it and wanted to do my best and cared for the clubs and say this is how we want to play. And, like I said, the experience. I didn't get paid hardly. I stayed with a family, had a bit of transport and working, but I just thought cheap, as these guys could do with some help here to play, and so it just started from there. Like I said, the first four years I hardly lost a game and that's where the dream was sort of planted. But, like I said before the Stourbridge and the North Oceans, I can go into them clubs or still in touch with people there. So that's the experiences that I've gained in between each level that stick with me and the people you meet, because, hey, rugby's meant to bring people together. Yeah, and it's a sport. Yeah, you know, and you want to win stuff, but yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, jim, before we get on to sort of the higher stuff in terms of the red in Australia, I know you've done a lot of thinking around some of the stuff around the bits in between, around your coaching journey and what defines the coaching journey, and I know you've written a few papers and things like that and I think it's important to talk about some of these. Where you said I love some of your quotes and here's one of them A coach's journey is not one of being, but of becoming. So not being a coach, becoming a coach Is that something which is. I loved it, I think, because we all say, yeah, I'm a coach, but the fact when you talk about, yeah, I'm becoming a coach, is this evolution? Is that something you've always had or is that just a reflective thing after you've had successes?
Speaker 1:A bit of both. I think you're always learning and trying to aspire and to get better, and just through the different experiences you have you get better because you're exposed to different contexts and environments. But the becoming means that it's not fixed, it's um, you're still, you're still learning. So your experiences good, bad, indifferent, um, like I said a couple of times, I was at a no job. What the hell am I going to do now? And my dream seems so far away. But when you look back, well, that was useful, um, because it just it's not the end, but it gets carried forward. So you're still. You're still in becoming, but, um, you could also equate it to the mountaineer um, trying to get to everest or the top, um, you know you've got to go through these different stages, but when you get to the top of ever, you ascend it, a bit like coaching internationally, but it's only for a fleeting moment, so you don't know how long you're going to stay there for Obviously, at Everest you've got to come back down again, and if you spend your career trying to get a black belt in martial arts or if you're trying to coach the international team, you don't know.
Speaker 1:Once you get there, you actually don't know how long you're trying to get um coach, the international team, you don't know. Once you get there, you actually don't know how long you're gonna stay there for. So that's why I refer back to the um. You know there's a timmy tim ignold who's an anthropologist, so uh, he, he talks about the, the journey. The journey is like a um, journeyorientated rather than just be destination-orientated. So the mountaineer, or the coach at each club you're at, or the mountaineer in between each stage. You've got weather, you've got different things you've got to be attentive to when you're learning as you go, and then you pick up them, things that help equip you to carry forward. So it's the experiences and the and the thing and the things that happen.
Speaker 1:Stuff happens along the way yeah but it's not just just um getting to a coach, australia, or getting to the summit, it's, it's, it's the stuff that happens in between, which is, I guess, it's like life really as well did?
Speaker 2:Did you always like you talk about that now? Did you always see those things in between, or were you so in the zone when you're pushing at these clubs to try and get to your dream? Did you notice them at the time or were you just locked into rugby?
Speaker 1:Some things, if we're talking about that, the knowledge about and knowledge of. So when I first started, I really, from my playing experiences, I had a vision of how we wanted to play and so that's how we played and that's how you start coaching. You start somewhere but you'd watch. I used to go and watch, like London Irish or Harlequins, and just sit and watch and then you see some activities and then you're learning. So you're writing them down and you learn, but then you go back and practice it in your environment and you might get a different result. So, for example, like a recipe, say a chicken pasta from Italy, the best recipe. But if me and you cook it, first we've got to follow it, like we've got to follow it because we don't know it yet. But then as we get better, we can start with experience. Then we can start okay, now I need a bit more spices or cook it a bit longer or less, or a bit more water or a bit more flavoring. So that's the knowledge and um, that, that of that as we get more experienced.
Speaker 1:So I think, as a coach, at first you got to start somewhere and you're relatively rigid. I suppose um and then, but as you get more experienced. You work out how to where to be attentive, like do I need to make the activity bigger or smaller or change the numbers or change the constraints, which is the rules? And on that note around, we're talking about leadership and culture as the main theme of our chat is really. I guess I failed at times, particularly at the start, to the attention of managing up, for example, or other things that might come. You just think it's about the coaching on the field and that stuff they don't really teach you, like you've articulated at level one, two, three or four rugby courses. It's more the stuff paying attention to the board or the committee or the club or the rules of the game might be changing, so you learn to pay it where you put your attention. But I think that just comes with more experience as you go and sometimes you can learn the hard way as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I think, just to follow up your analogy about the kitchen and the chef, I know if I'm trying to cook something in the kitchen and I'm following the recipe book, no one else can be in the kitchen. Because I know if I'm trying to cook something in the kitchen and I'm following the recipe book, no one else can be in the kitchen, because I just can't deal with other people in the kitchen, like the kids. Come in, I'm like get out, I just need to lock in here. That's all I want to say.
Speaker 2:But my wife has done it a gazillion times. She can have anyone in there, she can be talking, she can be doing whatever, she can pay attention bits because she's got the knowledge base Correct. Yeah, that's a good little thing and that's probably the progression of a coach. When you start up, you're all in on the X's and O's, but as you grow and mature and know it all or know how to do it, then your attention starts to look at these other cultural pieces. Wow, I need to connect with that person, and so on and so on. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean you've got some fantastic breakdown activities. I mean you got some fantastic breakdown activities which I've seen before, and then you might teach them to a class of 30 people and we all watch you, but when we all go back to our environments and contexts, it's all different. So you know, some might be coaching elite level, some at grassroots, some women, some at school. So we all try and do the same thing the recipe or this brilliant activity we saw you do but you're going to get a different result. So that's the distinction between knowledge about and then knowledge of. So that was something I kind of learned over time as well.
Speaker 1:Knowledge of and knowledge about is that the knowledge about can be you can do a course, a degree, or you might do all your coaching courses, or we've seen something but knowledge of is how you apply it within your context or environment, and and that's the, that's the where it can get. We'll all get different results, see, and that's when you learn to. That's the art of the coaching as well adapting and adjusting.
Speaker 2:Knowledge about knowledge of it's small. Yeah, it's interesting distinction, isn't?
Speaker 1:it. Yeah, a lot of people know a lot about stuff, but when they go and apply it, that's when you really learn or know. So, to a different group, different culture, a different environment, different club, love it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's cool. Now, jimim, talking about different clubs, mate. So you've gone from england, you've come back to into the big leagues, essentially with the reds. There's a couple of little in between, gigs in between, but that this is where it all sort of took off before you, isn't it? And I'd love to know, because you came into the reds and ultimately you won it in 2011. But before we get to that stuff, what? What was the big cultural differences you noticed, particularly from England and Australia, but also the levels you know that you talked about in the championship sort of realm of England to then the super rugby to in Australia? What were the any big distinctions you felt between either the players, the coaches, the communities around the cultural pieces?
Speaker 1:England was. Again it's a different environment. So you've got pressures of promotion, relegation, and then clubs Like it's a lot If a club gets relegated it's not good news, and then there's a lot of pressures on that. And then there's the weather conditions and and so in the cup cup games as well you got cup runs where you you just got to find a way to win. So that that helped sharpen my coaching around. There's times when you just got to find a way to win and the strategy side of it. And then you get exposed to all these different teams who have their good strengths and weaknesses, and then they've got the weather conditions.
Speaker 1:And so what I'm trying to say there is that I probably when I went to the Reds, I had some really skillful players, but I had some players in England that I coached. It's all relative, but whatever level you're at, it's all relative. But I thought some of their game understanding was quite good. So we might have some 10s or 9s there that could really manage games, and they had quite clear pictures of what their strengths were. So I come back to Plymouth. Who Graham Doar? There they could maul. It's like you could hardly get the ball off them. Very, very good at mauling, you know, and then teams like Otley had a good goal kicker or ten, so they could manage games quite well. I thought that was pretty good.
Speaker 1:So when I come to the Reds really young, group and skillful and I assumed that they would know some stuff say, our first year, for example, we lost in 2010, we seven games. We lost, but six of them were winning at half time. So and they kept playing the same way and teams would just the, the, the flow would turn and teams would just keep scoring that score against, but we wouldn't change you never adapt. So the tempo of games and all that. So I thought my experience from England that was really useful.
Speaker 1:To come back to the Reds, will Kenya and Quay Cooper with their nine and ten at the time now quite young, so they'd only been used to Losing. I think they had six coaches in seven years, though they just played a way of playing that as if they were chasing a game all the time. So that was one of the things that I noticed at Queensland. Also, the other distinctive thing was that all the guys are really tight, because I worked out that they'd all been to boarding school or schools together from, say, 12-year-old up to 18, and they all knew each other. So they're all Queenslanders, whereas, as you know from your experience in Europe which was kind of fun as well you get this multicultural teams Irishmans and Welsh and French, and a few Aussies and a few Fijians.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That was very multicultural over in England and all different types. But Australia was they're all Australian and pretty skillful. But just the game management side I thought wasn't very strong really.
Speaker 2:Mate you talked about, how did you shift the losing mentality or that environment of getting used to losing. I guess that's a cultural piece, isn't it Like there's an attitude that we're used to losing, so our mindset is we're always chasing. What do you do to shift that?
Speaker 1:I raise their awareness of what was happening. So why are we doing that there? And so it was really good at the Reds. So we had a small coaching team. When I went there again, I was so excited, as I always am.
Speaker 2:You always are, John. Yeah, there's no question about that.
Speaker 1:It's a great opportunity here and I want to do well and all this sort of stuff. And Ewan was a really experienced head coach and I want to take the opportunity to thank him as well, publicly, that he gave me my opportunity. So I acknowledge that and recognize that. But he was a very good head coach and we had myself and Matt Taylor who was defense, damian Marsh, who's actually with the Wallabies now. Still he was the S&C, so we all come together at the one time, all new, together at the one time, all new and so it was good timing and we were all super eager and keen for it to work. So Ewan had just come from the Waratahs, so I was very lucky and fortunate in that. So Ewan, I was coach coordinator and then did all the attack and the skills and so Matt was doing defense. So we worked together really well and Marshy as well. At that time he allowed us to work as well and Ewan just let us get on with it. But he was kind of a really good head coach, just sort of overseeing, and that was great.
Speaker 1:So what I'm trying to get to is that the players which I've always tried to be is relationship-based, so I just spend time with, say, will and Quade particularly, and go, okay, they're a bit, not what's the word, they're probably not aware of things. That's for example. So I said, for example, did you realize we lost seven games, like six games we were winning at halftime? Oh, I didn't realize. So you've got to show them some data, show them some evidence, and then let's have a chat about this and then why? And then you workshop it and okay, so the boys will know. I say timeline, scoreline, it's no secret, because everyone does it. But then this is a situation what can we do to slow the game up? How can we? How can we speed it up? You know we'll have a think about the score to take the tempo out, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so what we did over the course of um four years, we had ended up having a really clear base game, a framework to play which is built on the principles of play. We were the leading team for strike, structured play. But our strength was just the way we flowed, a bit like Toulouse, because that's how I like to play, like running rugby. So we had a really clear understanding of that. But then the cream was our ability to the strategy side, which I felt we had a guy called Philip Fowler who could be quite, who can be quite demanding and annoying, but I learned a lot of him as well. He was relentless around that stuff and then but I felt my experience from England all them games like over 500 games, like winning, losing you just got to find a way.
Speaker 1:The players who I was dealing with in England weren't the complete players, but you know you had to find a way to win. So with the Reds we ended up having a really clear base game framework. But then our strategy was our point of difference where we could just tweak. So we're playing the Stormers got a good line out. We don't want any line outs this week. We're playing the Bulls big team. We're just going to run them off their feet and just keep the ball in, play the whole game. So that's where we got to with it. It was a really really great time. But Ewan elicited that by letting us just coach.
Speaker 2:Really, Was that part of his? The culture he created was he would make sure that everyone's connected and aligned and just let the coaches, assistant coaches, lock in on the strategies each week and come up with good stuff. Is that the secret of what he did?
Speaker 1:well, Um, I think he, he, he was like, uh, kept this in line and then he had a really strong hard work ethic and so I didn't know any different. That's what we did at the time. Maybe I don't know if that's right or wrong, but he had a really strong work ethic and we kind of followed that. But, yeah, he was good with the players as well. But, yeah, he'd have them one-to-one chats with the players that you're kind of not aware of and he was excellent at managing up at that time at the Reds, for example, the CEO and the chairman and that. So he spent a lot of time in that space as well, very experienced, so he'd know the away trips and the pitfalls of going to places and all this sort of stuff.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, yeah, I can appreciate it. It's good when you talked about your relationship based with, say, the likes of will genia and quade cooper young talented players. How do you, how do you win those sort of guys over like these guys are, you know, top of the like, world-class players. How did you come in and win them over with this relationship stuff? Any practical takeaways you can shed light on how you won those guys?
Speaker 1:Yeah, just because at that level they want to play for Australia as well. So they want to play well. And it's kind of like I've always had the mindset of if you improve the players, that can help your team do well, and then if the team does well, the players will do well, and it kind of works. Works both ways. So I guess some people say, team first, but but I, I just you look at them and go, you're good at this, but how do you want to be better and what does that look like? And then you come up with a plan and you work together with it and invest time.
Speaker 1:I mean, yeah, the amount of passes at the end of Will or with Quade as well, but they knew more about me, but we're not on the field as coaches as well. So I'm saying to them how does it? Or what? What was it like? Like talk we and we talk, and so we built this thing. Uh, just kept getting better and better. They got better, but the team got better as well. And then I think it's important that they're all trying to get better individually. So how you invest your training time on, uh, for example, work-ons, and then having a coach that's going to be there to challenge and support them and what that might look like. That's part of the joy, I think, as well.
Speaker 2:Have you ever pushed it too far? Have you ever made mistakes around that side you talked about? You obviously got through to those two, but have you had any misses or learnings is probably a better word where you might not have hit the cultural piece on a person or a team.
Speaker 1:I think sometimes you've got to pick your timing.
Speaker 1:And also culturally, you know some head coaches don't like confrontation. They want to get on with people and stuff and so often at the reds, for example, um, you're the one that's got to do, tell the player they're not on the team. So you know, at one stage you you tell them they're not on the team and you and you've got to tell them how they can get better, and then you've got to, then you've got to work with them. So if you show that you care and be consistent in that, I think that puts you in good stead. And if they know you care and you want them to get better, you're invested in them on and off the field and they're relationship-based, I think so important at all levels really, and their connection with the team cause you want to do well for the team.
Speaker 1:Um, but yeah, but when you, when you drop someone which every week you have to do that you have to talk to players and you've got to talk to the blokes that aren't even in the in the team. They weren't in there in the first place, so they want to know how they get in. So not only is that quite draining, but that can test your relationship as well, I think what?
Speaker 2:do you do, mate? Do you just have to say it direct? Is that the best way of going?
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, there's two things there the blokes that aren't even in the team, or the 23,. I think the easy thing to do is avoid them, but that's not the right thing to do. You need to connect with them as well. I think it it's really, really important to acknowledge them and make them feel belong.
Speaker 1:Um, but I was very lucky in north walsham, my first club, first guy ever dropped, guy called mickey burns again he's not here now, but um, he, he, um, he had a very checkered past, shall we say um, in and out of institutions and all this sort of stuff, from the age of 15 to. He had a tough upbringing and he spent the ages from 14 to 20 sort of putting some wrongs right. In his view, shall we say he? Um had a? Uh, when he was 28. He never played rugby and he found himself back in community life and that and um, all the clubs in Norfolk wouldn't take him except North Walsham. And so because of his reputation, see, so he never forgot that. So he proceeded to be a sponsor, he married the women's captain, he helped the mini juniors, he played first team for four years and I come along after two games and drop him. So, uh, you know, he's got love written here and hate here and um, anyway, it was all carnage. So he's he's kicking a tree and attacking a tree and threatening to. You know, run me out of town.
Speaker 1:And who do? I think I am, and I had to. I had to be Mickey. This is why, because you're not fit enough at the moment and your throwing's not good, so it's hurting the team. And he was a hooker. He must have rang me I kid you not 15 times that night. Why am I dropped? Don't you know what I do? I never think.
Speaker 1:And then it came around to yeah, okay, right, yeah, I'll work on my stuff. I spoke to Rose, who his wife, I'm still friends with. She said, yeah, I could get a bit fitter, so I'll. So if I get fitter and work my throwing, I'm going to be back in the team. And I said no, not necessarily. So he goes, like you said, if I work on this. And I said, yeah, but the other guy's got a chance now, so he's in, so so if he plays well, you've opened the door for him. So anyway, at the end it turned around. He said Jim, I'm going to work at it, I'm going to show you I can do this and I want to thank you because I've been here for six years and not one coach has ever told me how I can get better. So and he said if you need need anything here, you're ever in trouble, or you need anything or whatever, just come and see me. You got a.
Speaker 2:You got a friend for life he knows the way around the prison cell, does he yeah?
Speaker 1:so so he he was. Um, that was the first guy I ever dropped. So, uh, I don't have a problem with that, just being honest, obviously, the you would have done the same, but you get all different reactions and that can test your friendship. But if you're honest, and you've got to have that conversation all people and staff and managing up and stuff, and yeah, but it's not easy, but you need to have them, chats, and so from that I don't have a problem with it's not easy and I don't enjoy it, but once you've done it you feel better, I think.
Speaker 2:And then you can move on. Has that changed over time for you in your leadership style? Not just that specifically, but your whole leadership? Has that grown and changed? You talk about a non-linear journey of coaching, but is that the same with your leadership?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's just definitely the experiences that you gain along the way. So them clubs I went to, I failed to um work out like, okay, I'm going to oral wigan, like I'm working at wigan, where they're with the rugby league next door, yet the guy owns wigan athletic, wigan warriors, and we're going to go to the premiership. So I'm just thinking, boom, that's awesome. And then we were there second year and then suddenly selling the club and they're going to develop a housing and there's no rugby club. Didn't quite go that quick there, so I didn't manage up. I was assistant coach there and the other guy said the same thing, he didn't. I didn't manage up, I was assistant coach there and the other guy said the same thing, he didn't really manage up. Well enough.
Speaker 2:What would you do different if you could go back? Would there be anything?
Speaker 1:I was so excited there because that was my first time full-time players. So, and again, it's useful because it because the experiences get carried forward. So I watched Wigan Warriors train every day for two years and met some people there. But then we go to Rotherham and same thing, where the club goes into administration. So there's some big hits there. I'm not bitter or regret or assist. Probably do some more homework there to make sure that there's they're sustainable business model, and I think that's another thing I know these talk overarching thing is around culture and leadership. I think I've found as well when I've coached and you see coaches, so I'm not a I'm not a teacher or a business person Well, like I'll you know, haven't had that background. So a lot of coaches I found in England were teachers and so they were quite good at organizing and teaching, whereas I was just like starting off.
Speaker 2:You're in your board shorts, Jim, with your surfboard on the back of the van.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's it and just sort of doing my best, you know. And then the same on the business acronym of a business model of the club's finances and managing up as you progress and what it's about and understanding the club's got to break even and need a business model. So I found some people like Ewan was really good in that space, like the business side and overall Some other coaches have. They apply their business acronym to rugby or team sports, so they seem to be able to look at the big picture, like recruiting and speaking to agents and all that sort of stuff and talking well, like public speaking. And then you've got the teachers who are, you know, really good teachers.
Speaker 1:So I found at the start I was neither of them two things. So you're asking about the coaching style. It does change over the way, over a while, from your experiences and trying to get better because you want to be more efficient, um, as a coach and how you're talking. So you're just on this journey of self-discovery and, um, trying, trying to learn all the time you know so, yeah, how did that trans trans flow through?
Speaker 2:so you obviously won with the reds in 2011 and then, on the back of that, obviously your talking was good enough by then, jim, that you would. You would then get picked up for the Australian national team. What was? What do you think it was about the way you were coaching that they've got you picked.
Speaker 1:Well, all the way through, like, like I said before, each team I went to, that the highest had ever been. And so this results and um, that's one thing, just win, winning all the time. And then, uh well, I had the one bad year at henley, for example, where we didn't win um, and I'll probably never learn anything more, and that set me on a trajectory. Two promotions and then we got relegated to henley and it's in a lovely club. I still got really good friends there. But that set me on a direct trajectory because from my playing and coaching, playing randwick mor Moringa, hardly lost a game First four years of coaching, always winning, and so I just knew what that looked like. I'd never experienced losing. So you talk about culture I observed and this is when I was head coach, I was director of rugby, director of coaching, and I'd never experienced losing. So I didn't really know what to do.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I saw how people reacted. Suddenly, everyone's got opinions, everyone went a bit individual People cared for the club because it was a top club and it still is. But you know, then you start blaming. And then we weren't aligned. And I listened to Eddie Jones, one about the teabag until the hot water comes on. And so you know, that tested and it was horrible, we losing. Then we you know players wanted to leave and then there was a core group of Henley. So I'd never experienced that and I actually didn't know what to do. But what that did that led me to. I never wanted that to happen again and so I go. How can this happen? And so that made me go.
Speaker 1:You know what I've been coaching, but you know, for example, on the previous season we did a lot of fancy moves and patterns and all this, but we didn't spend enough time on set piece, and that's okay. Most important thing is to win the ball in rugby. So it really made me go back to the principles of the game and you've got to look at the group you got as well. We lost a couple of key players in positions like props and I failed to have enough attention to that, and I failed to have enough attention to that. So I learned some big lessons around what's important and your non-negotiables and some of the rocks you've got to build a seam off. And that put me in touch with one of the guys who worked for Xerox, darren Cassidy, and he put me in touch with Gazing High Performance. You know red to blue, yep, yeah, so they're the founders of that.
Speaker 1:So a guy called um kerry evans, and then renzi hannum and bead and martin fenn. So, uh, I met them 25 years ago and they were very influential on me as well at that time. So they kind of took me under their wing at that time and I learned about them and they've been really good mentors for me ever since. So, whilst it was a bad situation and I didn't, I was out of my depth because I'd never experienced it. I didn't know how to fix it. I tried but and then the end of the year there was no job. So that next year I met these, these people and I know I I went to london, irish three times a week to watch training and I watched, I think, two super rugby games a day. This invested in myself as a student of the game and then to equip myself to carry forward. So, yeah, even though it was a bad situation, I learned more on that as a catalyst.
Speaker 1:So for me as well, rugby culture I think one of the things we talked about prior was measures barring, doing surveys and stuff. If people start, I think rugby and teams should bring people together. Sports should bring people together, and so if there's people not working together or arguing or fighting or something, something's not right, so you've got an issue there and you need to sort it out. So that's like a cure or attentive behavior. So say, for example, the medical's not arguing with the conditioning staff, or attack coach with defense coach, or you know stuff like this. So, yeah, that's your, that's your cues when you be observant to that around your culture yeah, and that's because you've always been.
Speaker 2:I always remember you at Leicester. You always used to have your little board of figurines that you'd move around. I think you've always been a student of the game, but it's actually cool to see how you've grown on that other side of being a student, around some of that cultural bigger piece stuff, managing upwards and that type of thing. It's actually really cool to hear. How did you then take that learnings? Because ultimately, that's leading up towards your time with Australia. What was the big learnings from that environment? Because to coach your national team is a huge honour and it's ultimately the high point in a career. What was your favourite bits around the cultural piece about being in there?
Speaker 1:um, I like all the um traditions and the rituals. So suddenly you get exposed to these rituals around um, so someone making their debut, it's a real special thing, you know. And then you get to sing the national anthem when you win after the game. I just think them, things are just wonderful. So the experiences of all that is just terrific. And seeing players make their debut and representing a country, so it was just terrific.
Speaker 1:So again, culturally, talking about that, wherever I go, say, for example, cornish Pirates, which is one of my favourite down in Cornwall, and the Reds and the Wallabies and all the clubs, I go okay, what's this club about and what do they stand for and where are we at. But say, I like to, when you do your cultural piece, connect it to the area, like the identity. Yes, not only do I do it with my playbook and all my names, like up at Noosa, all our strike plays are named after the beaches Main Beach and Tea Tree Bay and all this sort of stuff. But in Cornwalls they're mining, they're tin mining and they're proud like they. You know they're hardworking fishing villages and that. So get the boys out there to look at that and understand the history and connect your culture, identity with the area. So that's what I like, especially those Celtic teams. So I think when you're setting a culture, try and make it relative to the area you're in, like the people.
Speaker 2:That's a lovely little cue, mate, because it makes it more than the game, doesn't it? It makes it bigger than just you and the game. It's actually the wider area in the history of that area and those that have gone before, and it links you to the past and it just highlights the fact that you're just a little chain in this uh, ongoing chain of paper dolls playing rugby. You know those. When you pull out those paper people, you're just one of those in this connected group going through time.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, obviously, the All Blacks. It's pretty well documented, they have it where they're from and then they make the jersey better and the same at Noosa, like we hadn't had a good five years, and then, okay, this is our time now. What are we going to do, like, how do we want to be remembered and how, what are people going to say about us? So you know so, but you can do that wherever you are really, and but, but acknowledging the people that that helped start the club and, um, where, where they're from, and just, yeah, giving that perspective in life, I mean, yeah, so the Wallabies also.
Speaker 1:I felt we rushed the cultural piece at the time. So we got there pretty short leading time and you've got five provinces that all come together and the Brumbies are good at that, and the Rorotars, and they're all different, see, not only different way of playing, but different, different, um, I guess, cultures, working environments. So I felt we, we just felt at the time that if we beat the All Blacks and play well, that will buy us time to, you know, um, um to do other stuff, whereas I felt we rushed a little bit about pulling ourselves together and then, yeah, so I think we rushed. In reflection that was challenging there and then that's just my perspective on it.
Speaker 2:Because it is difficult, isn't it in international rugby, where you've only got the players for a short period of time? So how do you, in a short period of time, bring people together quickly and unite them over a centralised cause?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think, like I said before, let's workshop it and have everyone a say. And I don't think you can rush that piece, knowing what we're about and what we're trying to do, and then you can start working at it. But if you start working at it just trying to win, I think that under pressure it can, you know, go apart. So I just think we kind of rushed that bit, whereas at the Reds it was very strong, and I'm sure the Brumbies was strong as well and all the teams. But when we went there I felt at the time we didn't pay enough attention to that, but we were going to, but we rushed that bit at the start at the expense of trying to focus on the on-field. And then what happened there that was probably my that reminded about the team's first mentality. That reminded about the team's first mentality. So you know, if the individual gets a bit too big and not team first, that can splinter the group, which in the end kind of what happened with us a couple of years later. Oh, really.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So there was a lot of stuff at the time, so I'm not going to go in any embargo to talk about it, but also to say but at the end of the day, the big reminder there was the team's first, team mentality first. So I think if an individual thinks they're above the team around things, it can cause you big problems.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Well, that's definitely true, mate. One person going a different direction can wreak havoc to a culture and organisation, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've got another pretty good example. At the Pirates we had an owner who just got knighted, last year actually, and again credit to him. He gave me an opportunity when, when I was in, uh, rotherham, when, um, you know, no job, what the hell am I going to do? And uh, four years later, I had four wonderful years, uh, coaching cornish pirates, um, but I think after the third year had a bit of a bad start. And then he owner come in, flies in, in in his plane, comes down to London I want to meet all the players and staff. So, and he funded the club, he rescued the club, he saved the club and he played at the club. He loves the club and he liked me cause I want to win. And he knew I cared and was a hard worker. But he said, right, jim, you're going to sit here with me, got his secretary making notes and him. And we met every staff and player and in the process six players got sacked immediately, two staff. He said do you want to tell this staff they're gone or will I do it? I said I'll do it. Boom, it was ruthless. So that happened there.
Speaker 1:And then that next, next, um, that um afternoon we met, and he doesn't know this, actually, but we all went for a drink and we all talked, and then the next day we I called him in and said right yesterday it was a pretty bad day, people's livelihoods there finished, and so what we've got to do though, we've still got half the season left, and so our culture and team spirit was just, severely, everyone was just, you know. So I said we've got all the people who are not going to be here, you sit there. There was eight of them staff and players, all the people that they said you're a chance if you play, if you perform, we'll keep you on. You sit there. And all other people that are here, you sit over there. And so there's three groups, and I said what we got to do, we got to.
Speaker 1:We want these people here that are not going to be here. We want to play well, and the reason is that they're not feeling good at the moment, but we want them to play well so that they can get another opportunity somewhere. And then the people in the middle we need to rally around them to help get them across the line so they can stay. And you blokes who are staying, you need to play. Take it as a warning and play that we really think, and so I think we only lost one more game that season. So we found a reason to play for each other and connect. Oh, that's cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you drew out the negative experience and flipped it on its head almost.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right. So you get these things that happen and you know um, I think I did ring gazing at the time and said what do you reckon about this?
Speaker 2:well then, these are some of the experiences we talked about right at the start. As you know, it's not the, it's not the wins and losses. It's these experiences you pick up and accumulate along the way which are the most memorable things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's right, and that stuff happens Like things happen. So you know it's more about how you respond or the resilience you show.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, Jim, talking about that. That is actually. We keep this to about an hour, but I have a question for you, and I know this is something which you'll probably have, something right out of left field. It's about a contrarian belief, and I love asking this because I'm always intrigued to what people say. So, Jim, what's one belief you hold about culture and leadership that you suspect potentially your peers or contemporaries might actually disagree with?
Speaker 1:I think just sometimes, the way I coach I like the Randwick, the Toulouse, total positive attacking rugby, and the way you practice design, like I mentioned, the articulated at the Reds the first time we were quite free um. But the advent of gps is like you've got, okay, eight minutes or 12 minutes and and you got um intensive, extensive. So I think I think that the gps and the and the conditioning and that that's there to support your program but not run your program or or you know that. So I kind of we're trying to teach, we're trying to get the guys to be better. At times, and I don't know if it's sometimes it's going to take eight minutes or 12 minutes or 15 minutes, like you can't define it.
Speaker 1:But I feel as though a lot of the time we coach now to numbers and times and it's do your best, and I get that you need to be organized. But I think the art of the coaching is have they got better and have you achieved what you're trying to achieve out of that period of time? Um, so you sort of start slower, we can go for it whole, but then you can start slower and then, as they, then you can build up because you might be practicing the wrong movements or the wrong things and that gets reinforced and I get when you're performing. It is what it is. But that learning and teaching side of it sometimes I'll struggle with the GPS about telling me to speed them up or slow them down when you're trying to teach them something. So, yeah, that's probably something that, again, is relationship based with the people you're working with there.
Speaker 2:Is that a reference to a lot of the particularly the Australian superclubs are dictated through by the higher powers around targets to hit for certain trainings and things like that, and a lot of the programming is run by the S&C rather than the coaches. Is that a general synopsis of how Australian Super Rugby teams?
Speaker 1:operate Probably a generalization, but I think it's got flipped on its head from where it was before. And then the art of coaching. So you speak to the old ones I know things have changed, but you speak to the pure coaches, the Bob, the Wise, the, the old guys when you're trying to teach something, but that goes right down to club rugby and school rugby. I don't know what you're in that environment at the moment, but some of the schools I've observed as well will be very patterned, robotic, sequential systems, but also backed up by gps yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's funny what trickles down from the professional um, it does feel like something made that. You know it's a, it's a fad at the top end and then it trickles down and becomes commonplace in the middle and the grassroots and a lot of times yeah, and that's observation from the coaching journey as well.
Speaker 1:Their players contemporary will, how they've been coached. So you try and have an understanding of their background and they've been coached and what they've been subject to so off the top of your head less street games. They probably don't watch as much rugby as they used to and probably been exposed to patterns top down how to play, sequential thing, but really the designing practice and problem solving. I come back to the Reds when we lost. It was actually a great opportunity to learn about the game. So I remember we played the zombies. We'd play and then we'd come around with the forwards and then they started shooting players up out of the line. So then we go okay, we like how we get around this and so then we bring in the little past the back, or or we play across them. The ones that can again come back to that attentive behavior, where they're looking and what are they looking for, and they've got to solve the problems on the field, because the coaches aren't the ones on the field really.
Speaker 2:No, yeah, nice. Well, jim, I actually agree with you. I know the point was to find something. You disagree, but I actually agree with you around the overuse of some of those technical things such as the GPS units. Whilst they have an amazing value value, they can be misused and if you run your sessions just on the data and the numbers, you can find yourself missing a whole lot of other things, like I miss everything else in the kitchen when I'm trying to cook, um, because I'm just locked into one thing. Jim, what a pleasure it is to catch up with you, my friend. It's always been intervals between sessions between me and you. I fondly remember being coached by you at my time in Leicester and sitting over a whiteboard and all those little movement things around the board. You are truly a student of the game and there's no doubt that you still are. So what a pleasure. Thank you for your time, jim.
Speaker 1:Ben, thank you, and it's great to see your journey but, more importantly, the true success of what you had off the field with your family and, you know, obviously trying to help people. But at Leicester, it was a great opportunity there because I sit with the likes of you or Aaron Major or Dan Cole. Bob DeWaay once told me, if you want to know about how to different positions, sit with the best players, and so at Leicester, that was a great at the time, the biggest club in England. I was working in the academy, as you know, but it was a great opportunity for me to sit with the likes of you and the others and just look and learn. But meanwhile I'm taking stuff in because I don't know how to play in the back row or number 12, like Aaron or prop like Dan Cole, but that's how it starts and you learn and you can do it. You know so, but yeah. So thanks for your time there and and you gave me time there as well, so it was great to see you again recently.
Speaker 2:Mate, it's awesome and I wish you well on your next surfing trip. Mate, I know you just got back from one a couple of weeks away in the van. That's the balance we're talking about, isn't it Getting that?
Speaker 1:thing right. Yeah, it gives perspective and same with the players. The players is life, you know Things happen and tying it in with life experiences and perspective. And I think if you're a fit coach mind, body, spirit it allows you to soften the blows of some of the lows, or then the highs aren't so high. But you need to keep yourself fit, like mind, body, spirit, because that can equip you better and you'd be a better coach, I think.
Speaker 2:I completely agree, mate.
Speaker 2:Good on you, I bought you, mike, and you'd be better coach. I think I completely agree, mate. Good on you, boy you might. Here's my final thought from a conversation with jim and, to be really truthful, I absolutely loved the sentiment behind everything jim talks about, and it's important. I'm going to make it important right now just to dive into this a bit, because jim's been part of some of rugby's most successful times, from super rugby championship wins to achieving international honours.
Speaker 2:But what stood out wasn't this list of achievements. It's not the trophies. I remember most, he says it's the memories along the way, and I think this is a gold statement for us all to put in perspective. It's the memories along the way. It wasn't defined by silverware. It's measured in those special little moments together, the growth you witness over time in others and also in yourself.
Speaker 2:Now, as coaches, we always chase results as part of it and, yes, results matter. But when you step back, when you look back with hindsight and a whole lot of other things, what you'll find is what stays with you isn't the final scoreline, it's the journey to get there. Now, this episode is a massive gentle slap in the face to remind us all in sport and leadership is to not underestimate the power of being present. Don't miss that good stuff while chasing the next thing. Don't get caught up in all that on the field technical stuff, when there's a person standing in front of you and never forget the real win is who you become and who you bring with you. I think this conversation with Jim is a great reminder. If you're a coach, teacher or leader, whatever you are this story is a reminder. Trophies gather dust, but the way you make people feel will last a lifetime Until next time. Stay bloody well.