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Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Mike Friday: Rugby Is What You Do, Not Who You Are
What does it really mean to build a winning culture in sports? Few coaches can answer this question with the depth and global perspective of Mike Friday, international rugby sevens coach whose 25-year journey has taken him from England to Kenya to a decade with USA Rugby.
"Culture is a group of individuals that have alignment in the way they go about their business," Friday explains with refreshing simplicity. But beneath this straightforward definition lies a profound coaching philosophy centered on human connection. Friday draws a crucial distinction between kindness and niceness – you can deliver hard truths without sugar-coating, provided there's genuine care behind your words.
Friday's transformation of underdog teams reveals his talent for adaptation. When he took over Kenya's program, he arrived to find "a bag of balls and cones and 20 Kenyans that were late to training" in long grass. With USA Rugby, he inherited a team given just a 10% chance of Olympic qualification. In both cases, Friday's approach wasn't to impose his system but to understand the cultural contexts and individual needs of his players. "You mold yourself around the team, you don't mold the team around you," he shares, challenging conventional coaching wisdom.
Perhaps most powerful is Friday's perspective on success beyond trophies. "Rugby is what you do, not who you are," he emphasizes, a mantra that kept both him and his players grounded through victories and defeats. This philosophy proved especially valuable when coaching players from diverse backgrounds – from Kenyan athletes who had never experienced unconditional support to American players from wildly different cultural contexts.
Whether you're a coach, leader, or simply someone interested in human potential, Friday's insights offer a masterclass in communication, resilience, and perspective that transcends sport. His parting reflection captures it perfectly: "I'm proud of what we did, but I'm more proud of what the players became."
I am very, very cognitive around communication as the key piece, because that's where your connection comes from, whereas a coach you have to be consistent. It's deafening, really, if they're not saying anything. It's either they're not confident or they're not comfortable or they don't agree. At times I was quite too much like that with some of the people, which probably didn't always help. That's when you know you know those stats saying you are the standard, you walk past. I am a big believer in treating individuals as individuals and one hat doesn't fit all, and that can get me in trouble at times.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Mike Friday. Mike has been an international coach for almost 25 years and become an icon of the sevens format of the game, having coached three international sides England, kenya and the USA Ten years at the USA, 85 World Series, three Olympic Games and two Rugby World Cups. Usa Rugby CEO Bill Gorin said on his departure the positive impact that Mike has had on the sport of rugby in the USA is indelible, which is absolutely awesome. On his own ex-account, his tagline is geezer slash, builder of teams, which is absolutely perfect for this podcast. Mike, welcome to the Coaching Culture Podcast.
Speaker 1:Thank you for having me. Yeah, great to be on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, mate, we'll start straight off with how do you define culture.
Speaker 1:Mate, we'll start straight off with how do you define culture? I think it's basically a group of individuals that have alignment and the way they go about their business. I mean, it is no more complicated than that for me. I think, in order to have a culture, you need to have common alignment and it's based around human values in order to get after whatever the mission may be. And that's kind of how I've always looked at it in a very uncomplicated, simplistic manner around human values and alignment and trying to help individuals maximize their potential for the common goal.
Speaker 2:What would be the big couple of human values that you value highly?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I am big on honesty, um, and I am big and when I say honesty honesty obviously is quite a generic term, right, but there's, there's honesty in, in, in, in yourself. Are you the man in the mirror? Um, but also honesty with the man that you're, that you man or lady, you stand next to, and. And what I mean by that is that the honesty sometimes doesn't always mean being nice, but it does mean being kind. So you need to be kind, but you don't necessarily need to be nice.
Speaker 1:And what I mean by that is that sometimes people need to hear the hard word in order to bring that alignment, that togetherness, that unity. But how the hard word is delivered can be done in a kind way, and that's my point. And that doesn't mean that you don't raise your voice, it doesn't mean you don't use direct or concise language, it doesn't mean that at all, but there is a sense and an understanding and an empathy to that. So I think for me that those kind of human values are important. I expect honesty, I expect integrity, and I want kindness, but not niceness.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting distinction, isn't it the two of them, because they often get lumped together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, they do. And there is a differential, because you know everybody loves the hashtag, right, and all of that malarkey, but the reality is that the words behind the word are really, really important and you know, when you're building a culture, that's important that there's real clarity in terms of so there's no ambiguity in terms of that message. So that means that people are left in no doubt as to kind of how do we get that sense of alignment? Of course there'll be character, there'll be personality in arriving at it, and you want that individualism within your group because otherwise it will be your lack of creativity and reality is it will be boring.
Speaker 2:Do you think coaches would struggle with that concept of like, not always having to be nice and reversely striving to be kind?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you've got to work at it. I really really do think it's something that you proactively have to work. You have to have great self-awareness and you have to have good awareness of others. So, for me, like I'm, I am a huge person on understanding the person and and taking the time to understand the person, and and it's important and and also it's important that you allow them in to understand you if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:And that means that you have to show your good side, your not-so-good side, and you know, none of us are perfect, and I think that's the point is, as a coach, you have to accept that you're not perfect and you also have to accept and be open to allowing yourself to be seen as you by the group. And that's about being authentic, right, which is a word again that's banded about. But ultimately, being you is important because that's your style, that's your character, and you can't not be you. You can put a face on, but you can't put a face on forever and people, ultimately, will see through that the more time they spend with you. So I think consistency in being you is critical. Um, if you want to achieve something because you, because ultimately your, your goal is to build trust consistency being you.
Speaker 2:How's that? How have you been over your, your coaching career? Have you been a consistent version of yourself, or yeah, no, I think?
Speaker 1:yeah, I think. I think ultimately talk. People talk about styles, leadership styles, and I'm like, really, for me, you lead how you lead and you've got to be authentic to yourself about how you lead and your personality. Where you need to adjust and adapt is on in your style, is on your communication. So how I communicate will change and that style will be different, dependent on who I'm talking to, what group and where I've been in the world.
Speaker 1:And what you end up doing as a coach is and I learned this as I went is you mould yourself around the team, you don't mould the team around you. So when you're younger and you're coming through, you're quite bullish and you have to do it this way and it's black and white On my day we did that and so forth, rather than actually you know, and on my day we did that and so forth, rather than actually you know. You can have lived experiences. They're fine, they're honestly they're fine. But also you have to be open to the fact that that there isn't more than one way to do that without as long as it doesn't compromise the value system. And again, that's that's where it comes back to is be open to that creativity and the fact that that group may need you to be something else for them, without compromising your authenticity. You still have to mould yourself around them and that then comes with your.
Speaker 1:For me, it's communication style and how you nurture and build the talent around you being kind but not being nice. I am a big one on this because it's like I don't want people to get like I am more comfortable now. Believe it or not, people will say you're always comfortable about hitting the difficult conversations head on, but for me it's about transparency. For me it's about being open. It's me about being solution driven with those conversations. So when you're coaching or when you're doing selection or whatever the other things is, players only hear what they want to hear sometimes. So again, it's making sure that they understand the message and that everything has a solution. So if you want to get better, it's how can I get better If you're not getting picked? Why am I not getting picked? But how do I get picked?
Speaker 1:And I think those types of conversations and they're small conversations, they're tiring conversations, they're persistent conversations but if you want to be a coach and you really want to get the best out of the people that you're coaching, it's like brushing your teeth. You've got to do it every day and you've got to emotionally invest and that's a big thing for me, because you know you want to develop the person, because if you develop the person you'll develop the player. But, more importantly, if you do that with enough of them, then all of a sudden you'll start to create and guide this group of people down the path where they can maximize their potential, and then it becomes self-fulfilling, right, self-prophesy. They start holding each other accountable and keeping each other consistent, and now that's the, the culture word that that everybody the band's about. But it it takes a lot of reinforcement, consistency of message, consistency of action, um, by you and holding them to it in order to achieve that.
Speaker 2:I love it. Is it tiring? You just talked about that emotional investment. Does it get tiring?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it did I mean you know, especially if I revert it to, kind of, my last with the Sevens boys. Yeah, it is because the Sevens is a very tight group. It's not a massive organisation like a professional 15s where you've got 50-odd players and so forth. Normally you're around 15 to 20. When you travel, you're travelling with 12 or 13 players and three or four management. So you're a very tight group.
Speaker 1:But that emotional investment with the conversations, it is tiring and as a coach you've got to share that workload because ultimately, when you're building these relationships with players, different players need different things from different people in the management team at different times. And it's also understanding and recognising, creating the opportunities for the players to find the right connection for them to get the conversation, to get where we need to get to. Now, that might not be with me, that might be with somebody else. So get over yourself, mike, it's not with you. That's the reality of it. Your job is to put in the structure to allow them to achieve what they want to achieve, and that might include you. Some of the time it might not, but that's okay, that's more on you, and I think that piece is important as well and a big part of when I'm trying to build an let's call it an environment, or build a place where he's a slash team builder.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I kind of. It doesn't necessarily have to be me, but if I bring in somebody. For example, in the USA we had this performance coach. He was ex Navy SEAL but he saw life very differently but the values and the alignment were very much with what we wanted to be about and who we were. But he saw things differently and sometimes he can frame things in a different way to me in order to get where we need to get to. And certain players would go to him for certain things and come to me for certain things and that's great and I think that able, you know, that's an effective relationship, working for the greater good and the cause, and I think that your job, if you're so-called leading that program, is to facilitate and create those opportunities for that to happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you would say these days, especially in the pro world, that facilitation element is a big one for a leader of an organization, isn't it? You're facilitating everything the medical, the players, management. You're that person as the head coach, correct?
Speaker 1:Well, you're facilitating it, but again, and that's the differentiator is just to facilitate, like you've got to let go and delegate and you've got to trust, and that's again, that's a two way street, right, but that means you've got to pick your people well, you've got to get alignment in your management team, as well as in your coaching, as well as in your playing team, and then across the board, and I think you know that because the emotional investment is is high when you're trying to develop people, um, you, you, you need assistance and and you need to be able to spread and share that load because, again, you need to decompress and you need to be able to to bounce observations and ideas and suggestions off other people who see it from a different perspective.
Speaker 2:Yeah, have you had any misses or mistakes or learnings? Bucket loads what do you mean?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean yeah, bucket loads. I mean again, when you're a younger coach, you're very headstrong and you're very set on your ways. In that this is the way we do it, and I think there's times, especially in my early career, more off the pitch, I think, when I was trying to create environments where I allowed your emotional investment for the group to spill over to emotion and, as a consequence, you did the wrong thing for for the group, but you thought it was the right thing. Um, and you don't know that till after the event. And when you do get things wrong when you're younger, you're very reluctant to admit you got things wrong.
Speaker 1:I think, with experience there I say it, and the older you get, you're more comfortable. Probably comfortable is a better word. I think older you get, you're more comfortable. Probably comfortable is the better word. I think you're happy, you're more comfortable about realizing that you've got it wrong and being open with it and so, and actually that it that is probably showing you in a far stronger light than not, because the reality is that people go actually, mate, he, he does get it wrong and, more to the point, he owns up when he gets wrong, and that's exactly what you ask your players to do so.
Speaker 1:For me it's like I'm very open in the fact that I ain't got all the answers. I've got an opinion and I've got uh, I've got some ideas and I've got some solutions, but I'm not saying that they're 100% right and so let's kick the tires and and sit and see where they go. And a lot of the stuff we did towards the back end with the boys was very much about kicking the tyres as a group to where we want to go, and it's on that kind of coaching continuum. Isn't it Dependent on what type of players? Is it instructional, directional? Is it storytelling? Is it directional? Is it storytelling? Is it reflective? Is it advising? Is it offering solutions? You go along that kind of coaching continuum.
Speaker 2:Do you mix up, what style you take for different players, based on what you know? Yeah, and circumstances this person needs a story here, and this person always needs a hard stick.
Speaker 1:And likewise it will change dependent on where it is needs a story here, and this person always needs a hard, you know the stick, yeah, and? And likewise it will change dependent on where it is like, if it's dependent on where the player is from an experience perspective. But actually, what is the subject matter you're talking about, or what is the? What is the context? Because when you're certainly in in in sport and it's the elite level, there's lots of there's rugby, let's just say. Then there's what's going on in their, their personal life, what their life after rugby, and sometimes they want advice or all the things are interlinked.
Speaker 1:So you've got to be able to be agile and move across the continuum. You have to consciously be very aware as to what this person needs right now. So a big part for me as well is kind of moving like try and see things, see the issue or the problem or whatever you're discussing through your eyes, but then try and go around the other side of the table and look at it through their eyes. So what are they looking for in this conversation? And then come above and what does this actually look like to somebody, kind of looking in? So I, I'm, I am very, very cognitive around communication as the, as the key piece, because that's where your connection comes from. And if you get the connection right, with enough of them and, more importantly, you educate them to be able to do that with each other, then all of a sudden you can build chemistry.
Speaker 2:And now your players like oh yeah yeah, that's the you want them, your interaction, you want that to be mirrored yeah, so we did, we did, we did a lot of work.
Speaker 1:I mean, I'm a big believer in um disc and insights and the personality and working between the colours and understanding yourself Certainly something we had to do with the USA boys because of the diversity of the country and the diversity of the squad. I've never been in a place that's more eclectic, let's just say in terms of you could say something and you've upset three people. Two people have walked out, two people are smiling and happy and you're sitting there.
Speaker 2:What's the demonstration of that, Mike? Have you got an example of that one?
Speaker 1:Well, just the very first, when I walked into the USA this is kind of 10, 11 years ago, and I met them all. I just knew I was like whoa, like this. You know, in England this is the story I use with in England when you put a public school kid and a state school kid on a rugby pitch, you can't tell the difference. Yeah, because the parameters between the two. You'll have a middle-class kid who has a whinge if they only get two desserts. And then you put a kid who's on food rations he's on a ration book. Put them on a pick. You know exactly who's who.
Speaker 1:The diversity is ridiculous, yeah, right. And so actually bridging those gaps and those cultural differences was a huge challenge, but there was a lot of miscommunication or misassumption. It's probably the best way. You know. An assumption is the mother of all. So the reality is is like we had to educate them on communication and personalities and what the traits are of different personalities, which means that just because somebody sits quiet in the corner doesn't mean that they're not thinking about it. There might be a million things going through their heads, they're just not brave enough to talk about it at that moment. So again, getting them to understand one another and then finding ways to communicate was was a huge piece of this because ultimately, we had kind of gifted athletes. Yes, we had to educate them on on how to play the game, but their communication and their chemistry was way off and that was.
Speaker 2:That was the, the critical piece that we had to educate for them as players, because of the diversity of backgrounds that they came from yeah, I think that just that phrase the misassumptions is a good one for coaches to remember and the education of personalities types, getting teams to understand each other, especially in teams that come together from such a diverse nature. I think coaching in general can be laced with a little bit of misassumptions, especially in rugby. Right like when you've got physical support?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and also as well. Is misassumption of what success looks like, right, depending on what level you're on, isn't it Okay?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Everybody goes well. Success is winning. Well, is it? Is it really? Sometimes you lose when you win, sometimes you win when you lose. I mean, we've all heard that phrase, but never is it more true. Is that, yes, at the top of the game you're judged on your results, whether you win or lose. But that isn't whether you're successful. Because if you've, you know I look at what we did at Kenya and I look at what we did at USA we were down and out. We were going to get relegated to kenya, becoming top three, four in the world, usa one point away from winning the world series. But we didn't, we, we didn't, we didn't win. But were we successful? Yeah, we were, because we redefined what was possible with the, with a group of men, and did did we get a pint and a half out of a pint? Absolutely, were these men far better at the end than they were at the start? Absolutely. You know that's about ego, whether you actually win.
Speaker 1:And I know that's important at elite sport, but ultimately you give yourself a better chance of getting that W. Whether you get it or not doesn't define whether you're successful. But you know, when you take a step back and you look at where these people have come from, to where they get to and do they feel like they've been successful, then actually there's a, there's a deeper there's a. There's a. There's a deeper inner feeling there I think of actually you've made a difference, which is what a coach is about doing. A coach is about making a difference to the individuals, not winning a trophy that's lovely.
Speaker 1:But once you've won the trophy, you're on to the next one anyway, correct. And once you've lost the trophy, you're on to trying to win the next one anyway. So you know it's a five minute kind of adrenaline rush and then you're on to the next thing. But what lives with you is actually well, how will you be remembered? How will they be remembered? You know, were they remembered as a good person that did this? Oh yeah, they never talk. You know they talk about he was great at that. But you want them to be talking about you, the individual person, as a player, when they reminisce 20 years down the line.
Speaker 2:That's right. You've actually got a quote here. I got from you when you're leaving USA. You said, quote I'm proud of what we did, but I'm more proud of what the players became. Yeah, 100%. What a beautiful statement to go out on. And I think, when people reflect on their departures and they say things like that, I reckon if younger coaches could take that at the start of their journeys jeez, how powerful would that be right yeah, it is.
Speaker 1:But when you're younger, right, you get caught up like, again, you're finding your way and you're judged on what you do, not who you are. That's the challenge as a young coach, right, don't get caught up in the rat race. Yeah, but I won this, I won that. Did you? Did you make a difference? Like you know, that's tough, right, because that's easy to say, hard to do, because if you think of the way the world is built, they all look as young coaches. They judge them on what they've won rather than actually what did they do to transform that program? Like, where did it start, where did it finish? You know, what do the people say about what they did for that program? Forget the results. But again, it's easy to say hard to do.
Speaker 2:But it's a great analogy because I think everyone understands that rat race concept in life, particularly in the first world, and we were just talking off air about. You know, in Fiji they're on a beach and just enjoying life and not having to work, but then in the first world you work to get that where you could have had it in the first place just by opening your eyes a little bit and appreciating what's there in front of you, and that's kind of the same principle it's not what you do, it's who you are, and you shouldn't ever forget that 100%.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a powerful one for coaches, I believe. All over the world, the pressures and the stresses. Do you still feel the pressures? You've been in it a long time now.
Speaker 1:Are there still?
Speaker 2:pressures on you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you do Performance-wise. Yeah, 100%. You're in the performance game right when you're at the top and ultimately you get sucked into the rat race. Of course you do. It would be wrong of me to say I'm harder. Of course you do, because actually I'm a driven competitor. I want to win. I think the perspective I have now is that some things are in your control, some things are not. You can do everything you can do to give everybody the opportunity, the best opportunity, and that's the point is. Can you look at the man in the mirror and say I've done everything I can to give us the best opportunity? And then, if it happens, it happens, and that's something you want to be replicated across the team, because if you've done that, then you can play with freedom, you can play with flow, probably, and if enough of them do it, you're in the business, it's all going to come together, but it doesn't necessarily mean you'll still win.
Speaker 1:It could be a bounce of a ball, Something could just go wrong. The other team could also be in the flow and they might just play better than you.
Speaker 1:And so it's also realising and recogn. Realizing and recognizing you know there's been some great games that we've lost and you're like just lost to a magical moment there. You know, I I had one not long ago not in in hong kong where we we played really, really well, deserved a bit, and then terry kennedy came up with this moment of magic and won the game and and you're like, wow, okay, you have to take that on the chin. And I think, as I say, I want to be able to look back every time and get the boys to look back and say do you have any regrets? Could you have done anything differently? Because if you could have and they're material and they're fundamental then that's a learning for you.
Speaker 1:Don't make that mistake again, otherwise you'll have the same outcome. But if you could have and they're material and they're fundamental then that's a learning for you. Don't make that mistake again, otherwise you'll have the same outcome. But if you have, sometimes you've just got to accept that it wasn't your day, you didn't win, but be resilient enough to get up the next day and go again.
Speaker 2:Is it part of your job as a coach to help almost educate the players on that way of thinking? Because a lot of players will get super upset, just like a coach, about losing and do you actually make a point? You've got to try change the narrative in their minds around what success looks like.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, yes, I, I think I think you do. In terms of the wider context thing, in terms of what success looks like in, in life and for you as a, as a, as a man, as you find your way through it right, in terms of the bigger, greater goals of of you know, forget, rugby is what you do, not who you are. I'm a big but like that's a big thing. For me, rugby is what you do, not who you are. You know, and that's the same whether you're a rugby player or you work in the city or whatever. Right, that's that's what you do day to day, to be who you are, and it has to be framed that way around, which means you've got to make yourself a better person. But I do, you know I get as frustrated and as animated and as emotional as they do when we win or lose.
Speaker 2:And I'm like, but that's okay.
Speaker 1:Because you need to have that, because then you can build what comes next, which is you need to move on, which is the resilience piece. And that's where I am very solution driven what you know, what's done is done. You can't change the past. You can be upset about it, but you can't let it influence what happens next. So you've got to get back into the process and you've got to try and be better the next time and that kind of kind of rinse and repeat yeah, yeah is is something that that can be quite tough.
Speaker 1:You know, if you're in the grind let's just say you're in the grind of a 15 season and it's not going your well, it's tough. Right within the seven season it's very um up and down roller coaster because you kind of have five, six week rotations so you're able to re-engineer that narrative because what you, you know, you do the tournament, you have a period of recovery, that's where you do your reflection and then you come and then you start the next campaign to build for the next six weeks. So that's where the World Series and running that kind of sevens program allowed you to ebb and flow and change the narrative next six weeks. So that's where the world series and running that kind of sevens program allowed you to to ebb and flow, um, and and change the narrative. If you're in the attrition of a 15 season, it it can become quite hard.
Speaker 1:I think you know that's that mental resilience of you've got. To change the narrative, reset the narrative week after week, I think is a different challenge and I, you know, as long as you appreciate and understand the challenge you have, dependent on the dynamic in the environment you're in, then you adjust, don't you, and sometimes less is more. So in that kind of that 15th, you know what? We're not doing anything this week.
Speaker 1:Or you know, or something different, or a different environment, different voices, who knows? I think you have to be agile as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or a different environment, different voices, who knows? I think you have to be agile as well. Yeah, mate, it's a fascinating component which a lot of coaches talk about resilience and leadership and those sort of things but don't actually put much thought or coaching into the actual process of educating and training your players to be better resilient. It's quite a tough thing to do, but it's really important that you do do it right.
Speaker 1:I I think. So. I mean, I think and and and ultimately, like resilience comes from, from collaboration as well, and this is why I come back to that communication piece is getting people to like I emphasize, like people take it for granted, I think, rather than really cognitively work on being self-aware and the awareness of others in terms of like, if you can communicate better and you can be more understanding of the people that are around you you don't have to be best buddies, but you have to know how to get along and communicate professionally in order to achieve Because ultimately you all have the same aim Then the more you can help them make that either tolerable or enjoyable, the better. And let's be perfectly blunt You've been in changing rooms where there's blokes you get along with and then there's blokes that you tolerate because he adds to the team and vice versa. Right, there'll be.
Speaker 1:People say that about you, people say that about me, and it's like they will. But the key is is like, can you have a professional relationship if you can't have a personal relationship, if that makes sense? Do you know what I mean? And I think there are many good examples of where the best teams haven't always, always got along, but they always enabled a way to find a common alignment, which is the mission, whatever that may be, and then work towards that and be respectful and be cognitively self-aware of how they communicate, in order that it may upset or not upset to achieve the goal, and I think that is a huge part of team sport. It's a huge part of team sport.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's actually something part of team sport. Yeah, there's actually something in that when you're talking about professionals too. Being professional in your relationships doesn't have to mean personal in your relationships, and communication is the bridge to create that. You don't have to be mates, but you have to be able to tolerate and work cohesively with someone, regardless of what you think of them externally.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you don't have to get along, right. I mean, there's lots of great examples of that but you have to respect one another. And again, that comes back down to the human value, right, you have to respect them in the professional environment that they're contributing. You don't have to socialize them in your own time If you don't want toize them in your own time. If you don't want to, that's fine, that's cool, but, but, but you know that there's this I think that that's respecting each other's space as well, and, again, that's why I'm big on that kind of few human values and we create a boundaries and as long as you all bounce around in the boundaries, no problem.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah yeah, and talking about boundaries, how do you drive it? Because, like you when you talked about your sort of be kind but, um, you don't have to be nice in your style when you're driving really high standards around things, how do you keep that without, you know, damaging a relationship? How do you drive high standards without?
Speaker 1:yeah, you know yeah, I mean I, I am very consistent in message and action when I'm out there depend on what we're doing right. For me it's like depends if it's a skill, execution or a decision, let's just, let's just say that way, because if it's closed skills and we're working that and the reality is, yes, I am a great believer in you've got to get it wrong to get it right. That's a huge thing for me is that I allow players to get it wrong to get it right, and because that period, that's where you get your greatest learning, your greatest growth. But if you're consistently getting it wrong, I want to know why. And if you're consistently getting it wrong, I want to know why, yeah, and if you're, if we're, if we're working a skill and you're not getting it right because there's a technical piece that needs to be changed, evolved, no problem. But if it's down to work, ethic, attitude and effort, then my tolerance level is zero.
Speaker 1:But I'm, but I am consistent on that. Whether you are the best player in the team or the worst player in the team, it's like it's consistent. If there's a technical difference or an evolution or a change, then I'm all ears and I want to make you better, because that's what floats my boat. So there's that piece and then there's the decision-making part, which is creating the environment to allow them to get it wrong, to get it right and explore and so forth. But you can't be explore the whole time either.
Speaker 2:So, yes, yeah, you can't, you can't just open it you can't be explore the whole time.
Speaker 1:We would be through the weeks is like, yeah, yeah, mate, push you know. But we would be through the weeks is like, yeah, yeah, mate, push you know. But we've already said the best offloaders know when not to offload, so explore at the moment. But then we'll have a session and be like right, we're looking for accuracy in execution. So part of the decision will be is don't explore the offload if you know it's not on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, does that make sense? Do you set up different trainings for that purpose?
Speaker 1:Yes, so this is a real exploratory system.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or we'll set different constraints. So we'll set the constraints around the fact that, yes, we want you to keep the ball alive at all costs. Let's just say that. Right. So that means, well, I've got to offload at all costs. You do because now you're going to work that skillet offload and you're going to work out which one you've got. You've got to offload. So you've got to try and work out which is the best one to offload. Is it from the floor, is it out the contact, is it before or whatever? So, but you've got to offload because you've got to keep the ball alive, as opposed to then we're going into another constraint of a game which is right.
Speaker 1:We're looking for accuracy and execution. So if they go in with the same mantra, is I've got to offload when actually I've got my decision, is this the right time to offload or actually no, I should just ball present and set and we clear over, we go again. Now we're we're looking to evolve the decision making process because we've worked the skill, we've worked the skill under pressure. Now can we make the right decision at the right time. So you know, all of those types of different constraints I think are important and you've got to again you're clear on what we're trying to achieve. And then if a player gets it wrong, but he gets it wrong for the right reasons, okay. If he gets it wrong for the wrong reasons ie it's lack of effort attitude then he's going to get zero tolerance again, so he's so again.
Speaker 1:Hopefully that then becomes self-fulfilling, because the players will. I won't need to say anything because the players are saying it what you know, and they're holding each other accountable. And if they don't, that's again where, as a coach, you have to be consistent, because that's when the you know, you know, know those stats saying you are the standard, you walk past. It can creep up and we're all guilty of allowing it to creep up because you know say things are going great and so forth and ah, well, we'll let that go, we'll let that go. At some point you've got to check yourself to make sure that are we living by the standards we said? And if you let it go too far, then ultimately it's hard work to get it back again. Because especially with boys right, boys are boys, right the boundaries they always like to just put their foot over the top and just over the line just to see whether or not.
Speaker 2:Well, I've got something I want to ask you. But before I do that, just sort of analogy around that exploring Like if we're constantly exploring as a race, you know historically going and finding new lands, if you're just constantly on a ship, keeping on exploring, you're never actually putting down roots, you're actually not building anything because you're never settling and saying, yep, let's go here for now. You keep floating around. But the question I wanted to ask you, mike, because I was coaching in Canada a long time ago when you first started with the USA and I heard something and I've always wanted to know if it's true along with your standards. This is how the story went.
Speaker 2:You know, when these stories spread back through teams, one of your first sessions, the first beat test, you did it might have been a Bronco test at the time the boys did it and then they finished. And then you said to one bloke do you reckon you could have gone harder there? You could have got another length or two out. And he goes yeah, might have been able to. And then you said, righto, we're all doing it again. You did a back-to-back Bronco test. Yeah, was that true?
Speaker 1:Well, we did do back-to-back, Bronco yeah.
Speaker 2:You did, it was the yo-yo test. You did one. It was the yo-yo, yo-yo test. Yeah, yo-yo test, it was the yo-yo back then, but we didn't.
Speaker 1:that wasn't the reason.
Speaker 1:So I actually did it with Kenya as well, because what I wanted to do was to show them they didn't know how far they could push themselves. So what happened was that they did the yo-yo and I said, right, we're going to do the yo-yo, but once you're out for the yo-yo, we're doing active recovery until the last person finishes. So I just want you to do some passing up and down the pitch. So they did it. The last man went and then I gave them. I said, three minutes later I said, right, right, we're back on the line, because I wanted to see their mental reaction. And then I wanted to see how they would react. And they were like what, what? No. And it was like yeah, yeah, no, we're going again now, lads. So I said you can either whinge or you moan or you can just dig in and see where you get to. And it's that thing in that mind is, they all went. And then they went into fight or flight, which was like it's us against you, okay, which I kind of wanted a little bit as well, because I wanted to see what their fight was. Would they come together?
Speaker 1:And they went and, to be fair, most of them were within one level of what they did the first time, which again showed me the the, where they were at and that we did. We did do that and I only did that once to them, um, and I did it once to the kenyan boys and but what it did was it gave them a bit of an inner confidence as well is, look, this is how hard you can push it and you haven't been pushing yourself, which is means we, what we are going to be is we're going to be physically one of the fittest teams on the circuit. And when we did with usa again with the different cultural pieces, it was important. And with the Kenyans it was ridiculous Because they had a lot of self-doubt. The Kenyans because it's just culturally about how they're brought through and they always felt like second-class citizens on the World Series. So that pre-season we did with them by the end of it, because we gave them supplementation as well, they looked like chiseled warriors, they did I remember that, the first warm-up.
Speaker 2:I always remember what they looked like great.
Speaker 1:The first, the first warm-up, we we went out in um, it was in the gold coast back then. I made them go out in their vests and literally, and they looked like proper thoroughbreds, all of them and they, and it was glistening as well in the sunlight and the Kiwis were like that, they just went where are these boys? And they did, they looked great. I mean, we still had a lot to improve on our rugby, but physically, and they've lived that mantra ever since, it's like when you run into a Kenyan that's conditioned, it's like running into a brick wall. It's brutal and they manhandle you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so you actually said right, everyone's wearing their vests, their singlets.
Speaker 1:Yeah, singlets out, boom, go, and they jog to the warm-up and they felt you know what it's like with a man. If they feel confident young men feel confident then all of a sudden they lift their shoulders and they knew that they were able to live physically with anybody. And that was the same where we got to with the USA boys very quickly is that, if you can live with anybody physically now we've taken that out of the equation because that requires zero talent, because you're all athletically gifted, so otherwise you wouldn't be here, so but it takes zero talent to apply yourself and empty and get where you need to get to, and and and that was the start point of of of what we're trying to do yeah, so there's a great video of carlin collapsing after the second one, but that's because of typical Carlin he gave everything, but the video is comedy.
Speaker 2:That's great. You did it quite early when you relatively won the first ones you got there. Was that a bit of a stall out for you as a coach?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know when it talks about that coaching continuum, right.
Speaker 1:So when I first arrived with them because they were in disarray and disorganized. It was very directive, kind of this is what we're gonna do. Yes, I was that end of the spectrum, right. And then so again I wanted to set out this is what you're capable of. You don't know it at the moment, but this is what you're capable of. So this was my introduction, physically, of you don't know, but we've got to show you. But in order to show you, you're, you've got us, you've got to suffer, um, and thereafter that they started to realize they still hated it because, like anything, right, young men hate being pushed to the max the whole time. And we did push them hard, but they, that was where we played on the them against us. But we, we're not doing that.
Speaker 2:We're doing that intentionally, not to to piss them off it was intentional and then and then, like anything that then the reward comes is it is the acknowledgement and because that's all again, all young players and athletes want, they want recognition and acknowledgement that they're doing a good job and they've done well and and you've got to make sure you, you, you, you give that reinforcement and it's not empty that there's, there's real meaning behind it I love that, mate, because I think that intention and behind those hard actions it's not just being a dick or being a taskmaster, there's actually there's, there's real intention behind it and then you actually reinforce when they did a good job, you actually back it up right, and then it just that's just layering levels of trust in you really and like putting you in a position where they go right. Yeah, I'm all aboard with this guy. He's pushing me hard. And especially young men, right, like you said, they love that stuff they, yeah, well, they, well.
Speaker 1:They didn't, but they did afterwards they do and that's the point, that.
Speaker 1:But that's the point that when you again, as a young, younger man, he's like you don't know what, you don't know, um, and but, but. But young athletic men are very capable, they just need to be pushed. And the reason that they hadn't excelled in other things because, don't forget, a lot of these boys were kind of were from other sports as well. Right, they were, you know, they were decent basketball players or they were decent baseball players, or they were decent, you know, and that was the dream in America is to be one of those, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:But the reality is, is there's something in their character that was, or their ability that stopped them being able to do that? But it but they had the ability and did they have the character to match and the work ethic to to get after what this could be, and it was just opening their eyes and their world to that. And if that, sometimes, like I said, I wasn't being, but I was being kind. But the reality is, we have to go through a period where they might not like me some of the time and I didn't care whether they liked me or not If they respected me. That was the most important bit and they knew the best intentions of them at the heart and that's kind of again your consistency off the pitch as well as on the pitch.
Speaker 2:That's great, mate. And one aspect on this, which is a bit of a repeating theme for you too, when you're talking about the Kenyans, you know, in disarray. The Americans were in disarray, too when you took over 10 years ago. Like I heard, in 2014, when you took over Nigel Melville, the USA CEO said they only had a 10% chance of making the Olympics. Yeah, and that was like a bone to a wild dog to you, wasn't?
Speaker 1:it. That was for me. I love being the underdog.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's why I took Kenya, yeah, yeah, kenya.
Speaker 1:I mean I've been sat in the commentary chair and people were saying, oh, you know what? Do you know? You're sat in the nice commentary chair doing the media stuff, and I was like, well, and so I fancied that and I loved it because, you know, kenya made me think about coaching. In a very pure sense. It took it back to the simplistic because we had nothing. I literally turned up, I had a bag of balls and cones and I had 20 Kenyans that were late to training.
Speaker 2:And up. I had a bag of balls and cones and I had 20 kenyans that were late to training and it was did you bring your own balls and cones?
Speaker 1:no, no, literally. I wish I had. I gotta be honest, because when I saw what I got and I sat there in the long grass I was like what have you done here? You have your mouth has shot yourself right in the foot. Um, but it made me think about the game in the simplest of sense. And you know, even know, even when I got involved with England, we were massively underperforming for the capabilities we had, because we were not organised and we had no purpose. So, yeah, I mean like USA won 10% when ultimately, it was always going to come off to a one-off game against Canada, who were riding high at the time, they were like third or fourth in the world. But the reality was it's a one-off game. And I looked, I did the match-ups and I looked and I was like I back us, looking at the talent, if we get alignment, that we should have more than a decent shot in that game. So 50-50, that was probably the true odds. But when they cited 10%, I thought, oh, I'll take those odds.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can only go one direction here. It's like a dream statement when you're going for a job right.
Speaker 2:Exactly, that is right. No, that's great. Isn't it funny how the different places you go to find a different little connection. You talk about england there had they just needed a bit of purpose, they had everything they needed. You go to kenya and it's you're just getting. You're getting guys on actually doing weights. You know that kind of thing. Are you just like taking them to a place where there has weights, like to? It's totally percent.
Speaker 1:Well, we had to use. We had to use things that weren't weights as well. That was part of the thing as well. Some of the stuff they used to lift and do it was what it was, and they didn't want for anything, as long as you gave them love and direction and you looked after them. Like the Kenyan boys just needed to know Because they're so used to if you're doing something for me, what's in it for you, and the very fact that there was nothing in it for us apart from we're here for you, once they got their head around that they run through walls for you, literally run through walls for you, because they come from an upbringing of nobody does anything for anybody unless there's something for them, and that's just the nature of that. So, again, unlocking and understanding their, what their, what their environment is, and then showing that you don't have an agenda apart from them, was the key to unlocking their door to them going well, right, we're in this, we've been there. They're looking out for us, for us now. Now we're in it for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it was. It was really it was. It was really eye-opening working with the Kenyan boys, because obviously the politics in kenya are are interesting, um, and having to to govern that again for me as a young, a younger coach who understood business. But again, at times I was quite too too much like that with, with some of the people in kenya, which probably didn't always help and I didn't really. And I would, I would have a, I would, I would have a have a battle in an empty room sometimes, do you know, I mean, I would literally would argue in an empty room and and so realizing and recognizing the when the battles needed to be had and when they didn't, for the, for the benefit of the team, and that's that emotion, to that emotional control and that emotional investment is critical. And you only get that with battle wounds and experience, and certainly I had to get it wrong to get it right on a number of occasions.
Speaker 2:You keep doing it and eventually one will stay.
Speaker 1:Well, I think, as long as you're again and I got better at you know what I could have done that differently. I could have done that better and you know, hopefully you got the opportunity to do that love it, mate, love it.
Speaker 2:And, and now and now, you've taken that one step further. You were with the inaugural Indian League, you were with Mumbai and you were with the Kalinga team. Yeah, how was that Culturally? How did you go into that? Did you do the same thing? Have to understand the people and what you're dealing with.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was quite tough. Yeah, it was quite tough. Yeah, quite tough, because the reality is you get so limited amount of time. They did the draft system. You don't really understand what quality of local play you were getting either.
Speaker 1:So the challenge of trying to bring all of these cultures together was important, and what was lots of dynamics at play here, right, is the fact that you've got your marquee players, which are world-class players which are used to doing I do my job, you do your job. You have these bridge players who are from developing nations but, without being disrespectful, a lot of the bridge players' experience was closer to the Indian players than the marquee players, yes, and then you had the Indian players, which are the local players. So actually trying to bring them all together to create a team is difficult because of the varying of abilities and the cultural differences, and we didn't really have a lot of time together to break down those barriers. Yes, we had some bridges. We had Roscoe Speckman, who's very good at bridging all cultures and all nationalities. He's very good at it. You're that natural social person that understands that.
Speaker 1:But when you came to the games, the actual results, it was a little bit of a toss of a coin because there were so many variables, both in terms of you couldn't cover every hole. You only had two weeks of training and ultimately, the reality is you had to focus on trying to make the players better. And the challenge I set to the boys was the marquee boys is you've got to coach on this trip, you've got to play, but you've got to realise your bigger purpose is to coach and try and make the Indian boys better. The results will be the results and if it goes your way, it goes your way. If it doesn't, it doesn't and it didn't go our way. I think we missed out on that top four by a point, but you know you could go. Oh, we could have won that game. Oh, we could have won that game. We could have. But there was a number of reasons why we didn't Some out of control, some that weren't. There was injuries. That played a part for everybody, but everybody had to contend with it.
Speaker 1:But ultimately, did the Indian players get better by the end? Yes, they did. Did you educate them and upskill them to give them the best opportunity to go back to their local clubs, to spread the word and move forward? Yes, yes, you did. This is a marathon, not a sprint, in terms of the RPO, in terms of what their mission and their mantra is. But did you create an opportunity for a new country and new viewership to dare to dream, to be exposed, to see the likes of Perry Baker? You know the ostrich, jordan Conroy, terry Kennedy, you know all of these fabulous players, yes, and did it capture the imaginations to maybe inspire what could be an emerging rugby nation on the seven side? Yes, you did.
Speaker 1:It's just going to take consistency of a few more years and the evolution on and off the pitch. But in terms of cultural development, I think a lot of the senior players, the marquee players, would have got a fair bit out of it, because they'll start to see how important communication is when you haven't got like for like and how you interact to get the best out of them, to make them feel comfortable and confident, to try things or without fear of the harsh word. Because, again, the Indian boy, the Indian culture is very hierarchical, so you know, and and it's the elders and so forth. So they they're very considered in what they actually communicate or don't communicate. So you've got to break that down.
Speaker 1:They're very considered. They are, I mean even if they massively disagree with an elder. Down, they're very considered. They are, I mean they even if they massively disagree with an elder, they're not saying a thing. So it's very similar to what I would say, like some of the islander cultures where silence is deafening. Really, if they're not saying anything is that they're not confident or they're not comfortable. They don't agree, um, and and trying to break that down with young men as well, right, who come from nothing. So they're thinking, if I do speak up, I'm not going to get fed. It's as basic as that.
Speaker 1:One of the boys we had was from the tea plantations. The only reason he took up rugby was because he got fed. So if he trained, he got fed. So when you put perspective on that, you're like you know, you start to. You start to to to realize and understand how big the world is, how small our rugby world is in comparison, even though we call it a global game. Um, and and what? What the potential and the capability is that the game can bring to all, and what does success look like? Again, it comes back to that. It's not always about winning and losing.
Speaker 2:Mate. I can only imagine the growth that some of those marquee players would have had walking away from that, and what they left with in terms of a person more than a player would have been phenomenal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I hope so, and they might not realize it yet either. That's the point. Sometimes it will take some time and they'll look back and they'll go like gee. It will give them perspective without them realizing it. You know, there's some real lessons and then there's some reflective lessons that will probably come from that. Yeah, it was a fabulous month. Fabulous month really, really was Different.
Speaker 2:I can imagine. Well, it's some of the beauty of the sport such a global game with such diversity across it, throughout the world. It's a sport like no other, and you can get such perspective on life Now. Mike, last question time. I've really enjoyed this conversation. I could keep going on, but the last question I'd like to ask is just this, mate, and I reckon you'd have something interesting here, mate, and I reckon you'd have something interesting here what's one belief you hold about rugby or culture that you believe in that you reckon your contemporaries or your peers won't believe in, or or they disagree with you?
Speaker 1:on. Oh man, this is a really tough question you'd have you what?
Speaker 2:which one you have to pick? Right, you've got multiple, surely multiple?
Speaker 1:surely yeah, but I haven't. No, I mean, I'm sitting there going, you know, I think everybody would agree with everything.
Speaker 2:I say Well, not if I'm going to those referees meetings before a seven-circuit tournament. I'm sure not everyone would.
Speaker 1:Definitely definitely not, no, but that's another culture. That's got to do with interpretation, I think. Do you know what? And I don't know whether people would disagree with me, but I, I, I think the biggest thing for me is that that, even in a team sport, you have to treat individuals individually. One hat doesn't fit all. Now that what I mean by that is that, like, I am a big believer that if this individual needs it and this individual doesn't, I'm not treating you differently, but you need different things. And I think, like now, does that cause me potential headaches? Absolutely, but that's for me to solve as a coach. Absolutely, but that's for me to solve as a coach. That's, you know. And that's about having the small conversations, and that might mean a lot of small conversations to maintain the fact that I still have consistency of values and alignment and chemistry.
Speaker 1:But I am a big believer in treating individuals as individuals and one hat doesn't fit all individuals as individuals and one hat doesn't fit all. And that can get me in trouble at times within the team environment, because you're always going to get that bloke. That's so process driven going well, you let him add that and and it's like yeah, every, every situation is different. Um and and I think some coaches would disagree with me like no, no, you have to have uniformity here and I do want consistency of message and consistency of action. But my consistency of message is you're all individuals. Consistency of actions I'll treat you like individuals as long as it doesn't compromise the team, and I'll try and educate you to get you to ensure that you put the team first before you bring me these dilemmas. So that's probably. That's probably, but I'm hoping that all coaches will agree. They're all. They're all clicking on the comments. You know, I agree with Mike.
Speaker 2:I can tell you my children agree with that. One Cause when my daughter, my son or daughter says oh, that's not, that's not fair. My, my brother got that and I'd say do you want me the same as I treat your brother and they have to think about what time they have to go to bed because they're younger, oh, yeah, no, no, that's right, you can treat it all different. That's my problem. Mike Friday, what an absolute pleasure to have you on board the Coaching Culture Podcast.
Speaker 2:I'd like to just quickly sum up three of my most favorite memorable points from this conversation with you. Number one you need to be kind, but not always nice, and I love that little phrase. It's a subtle distinction and you've framed it as the delivery being nice. It doesn't always have to be nice, but you always have to have that kindness and intention behind what you're saying. I think that's just a lovely distinction and because a lot of coaches I know think they can't be seen to be rough or gruff or anything like that, but I love this perspective you put on that.
Speaker 2:Number two mold yourself around the team, not the other way around, and you were really cool in that you talked about your communication. Style is the thing that needs to change, but you don't necessarily have to. You mold the communication to the individual what they need, deliver it that way and mold yourself around what the team needs, not what you as the coach needs, and I think that's a cool thing for everyone to understand. Number three I love this is don't get caught in the rat race. Rugby is what you do, not who you are, and I think your global experiences of perspective and particularly when you talked about some of that kenyan and indian perspective is just keeping it real and understanding the game is just the game and there's a bigger piece to this wonderful sport of rugby and it's a connecting thing and it can really grow you as a person. So never to get lost in the rat race of it all. Mike Friday, what a pleasure to have you on board the Coaching Culture Podcast. It's been wonderful.
Speaker 1:Cheers Ben. Lovely. Lovely to be on, mate. You're awesome, mate. Great summary. Might have to paraphrase that