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Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
What the Best Do Differently. Insights from Rugby’s Ironman: Jimmy Gopperth
526 professional games !
How do elite rugby teams cultivate environments where players willingly run through brick walls for their coaches? Jimmy Gopperth, with an unprecedented 526 professional games across 23 years at the highest levels, provides rare insights into what truly builds championship team cultures.
Drawing from experiences at powerhouse clubs like the Hurricanes, Leinster, Wasps, and Leicester, Gopperth reveals that authentic team culture can't be manufactured or forced. The most successful environments make players genuinely want to train every day, play for their coach, support teammates, continuously learn, and freely express themselves. When coaches fail to explain the "why" behind decisions or provide inconsistent feedback, toxic factions inevitably form within teams.
Trust emerges as the foundation of effective coaching. Gopperth shares compelling examples of how the best coaches develop meaningful relationships with their game drivers through regular communication, idea-sharing, and empowerment. When players contribute ideas that coaches genuinely consider—and even stand behind when they don't work—extraordinary trust develops. Perhaps most powerful is the concept of "player power," where coaches strategically use senior players to instill behaviors in younger team members, creating organic cultural transmission rather than top-down directives.
Gopperth challenges conventional wisdom about "winning cultures," suggesting that focusing primarily on learning naturally leads to winning, while obsessing about victory without process leaves teams empty when results don't materialize. His perspective on longevity, motivation techniques, and the balance between rugby and life offers invaluable lessons for coaches and players alike who seek to build environments where excellence thrives.
Ready to transform your understanding of team culture? Listen now to gain insights from one of rugby's most experienced professionals on how to create environments where players give their absolute best—not because they must, but because they want to.
If you can SUBSCRIBE, RATE, and SHARE the show and series, you would be doing your bit to grow this show. Very appreciated. Ben
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www.coachingculture.com.au
you know you get your little groups within the changing rooms and that that that poisonous sort of flow goes right through the environment, and that's where it can go wrong. If you've got a team who are playing for a coach uh, it's, you know, that's. You're halfway there, like but if you got a team that don't really trust the coach, don't really like the coach, then why are you going to run into a brick wall every, every weekend? And forum, that was your idea, like that was shit. It just shoots your players straight down, um, and are they ever going to come back to you as a coach with an idea? Hell no. I used to watch some of the old guys, how they, how they train, how they hold themselves and the best ones you learn from, and you're like, yeah, exactly, that's how behavior should be within a group.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Jimmy Gopith. Jimmy was born in 1983 and he currently stands as one of the most capped players of the professional era 526 professional games in a 23-year career scoring over 4,500 points, and not just in any teams, but some of the highest around world rugby the Hurricanes and Blues in Super Rugby, newcastle, leinster, wasps, leicester and sort of retiring in Provence in France. He's had pretty much every single award you can get Premiership Player of the Year, rpa Player of the Year, golden Boot, premiership, dream Team, tri of the Season. How he's lasted so long as a first 5'8 at the highest level of the game is beyond belief, and his perspective on culture amongst teams is varied and long. No better man to offer his perspective on how cultures are done. Jeremy, welcome to the podcast jeremy mate, great to chat.
Speaker 1:That's a hell of an intro.
Speaker 2:Cheers mate yeah, I had to. I had to make make sure I didn't muddle too many words there. Mate, there's a lot of names there. I even didn't even say all of those teams, jim. There's others in there. There's more awards in there. Let's just start off with the absolute question that's probably on everyone's lips how have you done it, mate? How have you played 526 professional games at that sort of level? Give us your take.
Speaker 1:How is it, mate? It's good, I get asked that question all the time. I just don't know. I suppose my competitiveness I love competing and I'm very competitive and every time you go to a new team it's like a new start. And then there's new guys pushing you and then someone goes, oh, you're going to play forever. And then it's like, yeah, yeah, okay, it's like a challenge and there's a lot of luck involved, isn't there? With injury-wise and stuff like that. And I've been very, very fortunate throughout my whole career to have nothing really too bad bad, only one sort of major injury with my ACL. And well, I was 33 when I done that. So I've been and I've been very lucky. Mainly it's probably genetics, um bit of genetics, and their mum and dad are pretty fit people and a of surfing, a lot of extra golfing and walking, so I keep busy.
Speaker 2:Mate, you must have some sort of genetic rubber in your genes To be able to adapt and flex to the sort of hits and stuff you get After 526 professional games. And, jim, I love and I'll get to that and I'd like to dive into that a little bit later about some of your recommendations and thoughts for coaches and players trying to have longevity in the game. But what I would really like to start with is the question we often start with is with your 526 games, how do you define culture in teams?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a familiar word word, isn't it? Culture. It comes up in every single team you're involved with and trying to create this kind of culture. But for me, culture is who defines us within a group. It can't be forced upon you. It has to happen organically and it's everyone has goals and things like that.
Speaker 1:But a culture for me is the best culture that when you're involved with is one you want to turn up to training every single day. You want to, you want to get better, you want to play for that coach, you want to play for your mate next to you. You want an environment that you can learn. You want an environment that you feel safe and able to express yourself and for me, if you've got all those things in line, it creates a culture that you want to thrive, to be the best you can be. And for me, if you're doing all those things, then you're going to play your best rugby on the weekend, and not just that, you're going to love doing it, which is a lot of words and a lot of jarble, but it's yeah, I don't know if you sort of understand my point. Culture for me is something it is very important. You've got to have people on the right, in the right page. But you can't just force it upon each other and it has to happen. But you got to want to do it I love it.
Speaker 2:Love those five things, mate, in order to thrive, want to turn up, play for the coach, play for your mate, environment to learn and be able to express yourself. Now you would have had a lot of examples of both good and bad here, jim. Yeah, what's what is wanting to turn up? What is that like? Why do you want to turn up in a culture like what is what's been done well by coaches and what's maybe not so well, that puts you off turning up?
Speaker 1:so when, when you want to, when you? Well, I suppose let's start with the negative. Yeah, a coach who has got the environment wrong, um is the mainly. The biggest thing is that they don't. They're not people, people, people like, as in. They're not good people, managers. So if you don't understand why you're doing something, or you don't understand why you're not quite selected or you get given jarble, if you know you just get given rubbish and feedback all the time, then you don't trust that coach.
Speaker 1:And I've been in environments quite a few environments that players don't get selected, or you know me personally, or other players.
Speaker 1:They go into a meeting with a coach, they come out oh, they've said this. They go into the changing room, they have their little chats with all their little groups and then another coach will say something totally different to the same player, that why he's not playing, and it's all these mixed messages and the player's sitting there going, well, what the hell do I have to do to play? And then he goes and talks to his mate in the corner and then that mate goes and talks to another guy and then you get all these little separations within your team and then you know you're not on the same page and it's. It happens so much. You've probably been in teams where it happens and when you don't, that's when you just don't want to turn up, like it's like, well, what am I doing? Um, these guys obviously don't care about the people, and for me, me people is the main, main thing, because that's what? If we get all on the same page, we're, we're really wrong.
Speaker 2:Mate? Yeah, it's, it's massive, isn't it? If you don't trust that coach and I think it's a nice point that you said about players, like if they don't understand the why of whatever they're doing, then it leads to that sort of those cracks and those little factions and the poison sinking into the change room, right?
Speaker 1:usually the why is the most important thing for me game plans, moves, systems, coaches understanding why you're doing something is is so important because then, if you understand the why, then you can just relax and things happen like organically, or happen on the field. You don't think because you understand why you're doing something and then you can put it. It's also accountable. You can be accountable for it because you understand it, you know why you're doing it and if you're not doing it, then you've got something to come back on.
Speaker 2:Yes, and as a 10, have have you had? You would have had situations where you might not necessarily agree with whatever tactic, but if it's explained why they're putting it in, do you just go okay that's 100.
Speaker 1:If. If you understand the why, then you can okay. You understand the opportunity that they're trying to create for the environment and for the team and you always do what's best for the team.
Speaker 2:So the art for a coach isn't necessarily getting the absolute best player. It's about selling the why to the key players Of course it is, Of course it is.
Speaker 1:Of course it is. If you have the whole team understanding the why, then, jeez, you're on the right path. But if your game drivers fully understand why you're doing something and the reasons for it, then nine times out of ten your team should be in a good place.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what does it look like when coaches do it well?
Speaker 1:Well, exactly as I've just said, it's fully understanding why you're doing what you're doing. You have everyone's just thriving for the same goal. You have guys who don't get selected pushing it away and cracking on in training to help the team best they can prepare for that week. Everyone's celebrating the wins, the losses, the draws together. It's a great, just good, good fun environment. You turn up to training, you're just having good fun. You really want to play for that coach, you want to play for that team and it's just a good feeling, like it's when the culture's really perfect, like really good it's. It's a great feeling and a great team environment to be a part of. And the other ones you just yeah, you see players really just blossoming as people and as players in those sort of environments, do you?
Speaker 2:have an example of a coach you've had who you just went. Yeah, he nailed it for me Like he created something pretty cool, and why that was. Anyone stand out particularly.
Speaker 1:I think back in the day I think you probably might agree is that, obviously, when I first sort of made it, chris Boyd and Plums took on the Lions and that sort of environment we had sort of was 03, 04, 05. Like, we made how many? I've made finals virtually every year and there was so many of us as young kids and, like you know myself, pity, like like all those young guys coming through and we never because we had, you know, my first we had the Cullies, the Tanas, the big dogs within those environments. But as a young kid we all felt part of it and I think Boide really done that well and made us feel that our, I suppose our thoughts and our presence was as good as tānas and people like that. We're all in one and we seemed to really thrive together and I really enjoyed that period. It was really good fun. We played some good rugby, but we actually enjoyed ourselves like on and off the pitch.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I remember those times. But I actually remember Boydie this must have been my first year too for that team and I just remember one of the sort of early conversations he talked about energizers and sappers and he did this presentation to the team around. There's two types of people on the team. It's those that energize those around them and those that sap the energy of those around them. And he made a big push of like, what do you want to be? It's a choice how you want to be in an environment. Do you want to be an energizer to the group or do you want to be a sapper to the group? And it just always stuck with me because it's such an easy thing to just raise as a coach, isn't it Just making you aware of the influence that your behavior has? And I think, like you said, it's important for not only the young fellas to know that concept, but also some of the senior boys, so they don't become, you know, dragging the environment down too right usually.
Speaker 1:And then I remember, because of of those, you know if anyone was sapping. Oh, sapper, sapper, sapper, you know the boys, you just get called out on it. And because you're aware of it, oh shit, you know like. So you're creating a little bit of a like great culture within your environment just because of you know, you're aware of who's a sapper and who's not and what it is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Mate, just you saying that. Then it just takes me back to that time, particularly Ma yelling out sapper at the top of his lungs at every second opportunity. It was awesome yeah.
Speaker 2:But there's something to be said about that, because there was something novel in the way he was talking, the way he delivered that as a coach it really landed. And the fact that when something is like taken on as a bit of a gag and particularly in male teams where that sort of banter around something you said really sticks Like, just the fact that everyone was constantly saying and holding each other accountable was a testament to the quality of that delivery right it does, and it just brings back so many memories and through my whole career I've been using that word don't be a sapper and I'm like that's exactly where it came from.
Speaker 2:And probably people wouldn't realize that when you say that with no context, right? No?
Speaker 1:There's been a few people, like some of the Frenchies, I mean, don't be a sapper. And they're like, look at me going what it's like? Yeah, stop talking shit. So it's been. Stop bringing people down. So yeah, no, it's a tiny little way of how Boydie done that is created that sort of everlasting moment of yeah, don't bring people down and don't be in the environment, do it at home.
Speaker 2:That's cool. It's a good reflection for coaches about the power of just those little things that you can do to raise awareness in people, because I don't think anyone in that environment, or any environment, wants to drag an environment down. You're just doing it by, yeah, instinct or automatically, aren't you? And so just to have that little thing where you know you're giving people the tools to be able to critique your teammates, which is not always easy to do, is it?
Speaker 1:no, it's not. And and coaches have got a big role in that. Um, for me it's like if they're not honest with their players, that can create that sapping within the group, as if coaches and don't give the proper feedback, if they beat around the bush and just say, oh you know, make up something, and then another coach say something that's my example before that creates that sapping environment and that's when you start getting your little cliques and you know you get your little groups within the changing rooms. And that's when you start getting your little cliques and you know you get your little groups within the changing rooms and that that, that poisonous sort of flow goes right through the environment and that's where it can go wrong.
Speaker 1:So I would rather, as a player, get told to my face to from a coach look, you're just not good enough at the moment, but here is what you need to work on to try and get there. Then, oh, no, just, you know, um, you know, oh, bob, bob's looking better this week. We're gonna play him. You're doing really well, though. Um, just keep cracking on and it's like well, what have I got to work on? What have I? No, no, no, you're doing really good, but I'm not playing. You know that's the kind of feedback that coaches. For me it's the most important because I've been, honestly, it's about 80% of coaches give you that feedback.
Speaker 2:Why do you think they go there, Jim?
Speaker 1:Because it's easy. It's easy. They haven't got the time to sit. They don't want this player to be sitting down in front of them well and for for 15 minutes, when they need to go and do something else. It's just easy for them to keep them happy. That's in their mind. They're probably thinking I'm keeping them happy, I'm keeping them on side, by telling them oh no, no, you're doing well, you're doing well, whereas I don't know for me personally and I know a lot of players, because a lot of players talk behind coaches' backs. That's how it is. They would rather be told 100% why they're not selected and how can they get to where they need to be be able to be considered in selection.
Speaker 2:I think it's so true. I remember Steve Hansen talking once about he just flipped a coin and said it's 50-50, it's literally 50-50, and you lost. And the player actually said afterwards I actually appreciated that brutal honesty that it was he didn't say for this or that he just went. It's so close. I had to flip a coin and he didn't mind it because it was the truth that's the truth.
Speaker 1:Like, if it's that close and it's literally 50 50, I'll flip the coin. Uh, you, you know. Oh well, it's just just how it is.
Speaker 2:You know, next week I might land on tails and I might get a crack it's almost about when it comes down to the gym, like this is the kind of thing for coaches, isn't it like? This is a big area. You've got to get right, like a lot of coaches, when they start coaching, think they've got to nail the x's and o's, the skills and drills and what they're doing. But, as you've already said, more important is the why you're doing it rather than what you're actually doing, and your delivery of feedback is probably more important than anything you're doing on field to earn that trust, because once you've got the trust, players will do things for you right. Even if they're not even good things, they'll do them.
Speaker 1:And if you've got a team who are playing for a coach, you're halfway there. But if you've got a team that don't really trust the coach, don't really like the coach, then why are you going to run into a brick wall every weekend and for them? You might do it for your teammates, but why are you going to do it for that coach?
Speaker 2:Is it actually a really big thing in professional rugby, Jim, that you actually prioritize how much you enjoy? The coach is how hard you'll run to that brick wall.
Speaker 1:It's definitely right up there.
Speaker 2:Isn't that amazing? Yeah, and that's the kind of thing with this sport particularly is that you can talk about all the sort of technical aspects, but then there's a huge motivational piece, right that you are actually running into harm's way. So your motivation to do that comes from a lot of different areas, and I think it's important coaches know that if players like you and like what you do, then they're more likely to go harder, right?
Speaker 1:Of course they are, and a lot of it will come during the week, more so than a match, because in a match you get the adrenaline you love game day, you know it's game day and yeah you got your mates.
Speaker 1:You don't want to let them down, but it's during the week is where you see it. I reckon even more is if you don't really like what the coach is doing, are you going to apply yourself 110 to to that drill? Um, you know, it's like I don't think and I've seen it. They don't it's. But if you have a coach, you fully understand what the what, what you're doing, why you're doing it. You're gonna rip him. It's just, it's easier. You just feel you feel trusted, you feel like you're motivated to to do that, to do that training, and then crack on in the weekend man, I'm couldn't, couldn't agree with you more.
Speaker 2:Mate, so understated. And mate, as a game driver for your teams, you're always the one. So you have a pretty intimate um relationship with most coaches, right? Yeah, that's a, that's a big one, do you find? How have the best coaches connected well with you? Because you're the key, you're essentially the fourth coach. How have good coaches got you on board, sold you the why, like, what have they done emotionally or mentally or relationship-wise which you've gone? Yeah, this guy's all girls. Yeah, I'm on board with this person.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you just cracked on there. Relationship it's having a good relationship with that person, understanding the way they see the game, but they also understand the way you see the game and you've got a good balance between your way of thinking, their way of thinking and ultimately it's their way, because they're the coach and you respect that. And when you respect the coach, you have more. I suppose you put more energy into their way because you really trust it and you're ready to go. But it's the little chats on the side, it's the little side meetings and they're enjoyable, like you have a bit of crack, you know, you're not just serious. You're happy to pick up a phone anytime. Oh, what about this? Did you see this? Send them a clip.
Speaker 1:And you have that sort of relationship where if you bring something to the table, it's not like oh no, no, it's my no, we're not doing that because this is my way. They have a bit of to and fro as well. They're like, oh yeah, really enjoy that, let's crack on, let's have a crack at that. I really see the way you're seeing the game there, or you know. But then if you bring something to the table and they're like I, I don't really see this because, xyz, then you're like, oh, you understand. So some of the best relationships I've had have been like that you have a great understanding of each other's thoughts, thought process around um how things should uh be ran, but you also take and give from both sides do you have relationships with best ones where coaches have rung you up, ring you outside of, like, say, on a Sunday night, and they'll say, jim, just got these ideas.
Speaker 2:What do you reckon? Is that a good example of the best coach you've had?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and we have a little WhatsApp groups and we're always singing, sending in clips of different, different aspects of training, or you know what, if we'd done this and what if we done that, could this benefit us?
Speaker 1:Um, and it becomes it as a game driver, you, you, you feel a lot of responsibility, but it's accountability as well, and so you want to.
Speaker 1:If you, if you give your ideas and they run with it, you feel like, okay, I really have to drive this, so you drive it within the players, so you're going to have little small talk, chats to key people that you know, that need to know this role to in order to go, otherwise, your ideas are gonna look pretty shit. You know what I mean. So it creates a bit of responsibility from for me as a driver, to make sure the whole group understand why we're doing it and what we need to do. And I suppose, as you say, like the fourth coach, but you take that responsibility and the coaches, by giving you that power, is a really great way, because we're out there. At the end of the day, we all know it there's no coaches on the pitch, so we have to be the ones to be driving this on the pitch, and if we fully believe in what we're doing, we'll take responsibility and run with it. And if some of those ideas are coming from us, we're going to drive it even more, aren't we?
Speaker 2:Mate. That's cool because I think that's a real, a good one for a lot of coaches, especially older school coaches, who potentially are a bit more dictatorship about how things are changing, when coaches actually understand how giving game drivers responsibility leads to them having real accountability, real, like, um, intrinsic motivation. It just you know, like it's it's sometimes as a coach conceding yep, that's, you run that, if you think it's going to work, has real power, like real power, isn't it like then you're invested, you're yeah, yeah, good coaches do that.
Speaker 1:The key with it as well is you can. The key with it as a coach is if you give your player power for their idea and it doesn't work, you can't go. Well, I told you, or it was your idea, it didn't work. It's because I've had a couple that have done that, but then I've had other people that haven't done that and it's like yep, I seen, we, it just didn't work. That, that that time.
Speaker 1:But we can do this, this, this, and I think we can, we can manipulate to work better. And then it was like sweet bang, and then the next week you probably score a try off that kind of set play. That's a real key as well, because if you give your players power to do something and then, oh well, it didn't work, that was your idea, like that was shit. It just shoots your players straight down and are they ever going to come back to you as a coach with an idea? Hell, no, because they'll be worried about getting shot down. So that's really key as well, because you want to empower your players as a coach and give them some responsibilities, but you don't want to shoot them down if something that they bring to the table doesn't work.
Speaker 2:And the other thing to probably add to that, jim, is they probably feel like you've got their back, whatever. If you've come up with an idea and it doesn't work, and the coach owns it and takes responsibility for it, that's earning a lot of trust, isn't it? It's like, wow, the coach has got me, he's backed me and he's backed me so much that he's even backing me when it didn't work, and there's a lot of trust there, and that's what you talked about at the start?
Speaker 2:yep, yeah, have you did? You say you had a few times where coaches have gone? Told you, jimmy, that was a shit option. Don't throw the ball into the post like that, or don't try to run it from there I've had one or two what's the chat like afterwards? What's it? How did you get the trust back, or did you?
Speaker 1:uh no, you have to try and laugh it off at some stage. But I'm I'm like, I'm very fortunate, I'm very thick skinned, so I'm just like, wow, yeah, okay, didn't work. Next one, um, but you know, I could see if you weren't thick skinned it would it really? You know, you could literally go in a shell, and that's the last thing you need your players is is going into a shell because you're not going to get the best out of them.
Speaker 2:Mate, where do you think your thick skin comes from?
Speaker 1:Well, I don't know, farmer boy, I suppose Too much salt water on the surf mate.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, I think Too much salt water on the surf mate. Yeah, yeah, no, I think just the way I've been brought up that farming lifestyle. You've got to work hard and enjoy what you do. But everything's not going to be perfect. You just keep working hard, and hard, and hard and you get knocked back. I've had my fair few, fair few knockbacks in my career. But my dad always says just keep keep cracking on. And um, you know, you don't know where you're going to be. So you know I've had loads of knockbacks, but I'm still, uh, I'm still managed to play a few games.
Speaker 2:So it's now you certainly have what would be some of your biggest evolutions as you've been playing this game, jim. Obviously. 23-year career no one does that. What's been some of your big evolutions, mate? Your identity shifts as a player as you've moved through the different teams and phases of life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I suppose, jeez, when you're a young fella, jeez, I've lost a bit of memory back down there you probably want to tell me what I was like when I was a young buck, when you came in, when it started. I think you just evolve as a person, as a player, don't you? When I was young, I was up for everything. I was sort of like a possum in the old headlights. My eyes were going all the time. I was pretty frantic, always taking the line on nine times out of ten, trying to make line breaks, whereas over time then you just realize of how the game evolves and then, as a player, you're like like, okay, start picking your moments and you understand. Yeah, it's not good just to try and show and go every every two seconds and, uh, you know, okay, maybe if I wait my turn and I can get it.
Speaker 1:But of my biggest strengths is my communication skills and my game understanding, and I think I've developed that right throughout my career. And I remember back when I was really young, tana said to me he's like look, you're young, but you're our 10. So you treat me and anyone exactly the same and use your voice. We need to hear you use your voice and I think ever since that day I don't think I've shut up on the pitch, so it's a great bit of advice for me.
Speaker 1:It's, um, it was a great bit of advice for me and I've run with that my whole career, because I do think my strength is I'm always communicating um, loud and precise, because I think if, if your game drivers communicate, the fords are always got their head in the sand and working their butt off, and if you can talk to them and tell them where you need, where they need to be, what they need to do early, geez, they give you they. They definitely buy you a few pints of beer after the game. And so, as a player, I think I've evolved to that real game understanding as going from this frantic young kid just trying to take the line on every two seconds to be more of a generalism. I always put the team first. I don't care if I don't score a try, but if I give that pass to that next guy and he scores easier, then it makes my job a lot easier and I get a lot of satisfaction out of that.
Speaker 2:I love it, mate. I actually love that what Tana said to you there. So Tana Umeng, all-black captain at the time, said all you have to do was I've actually got this quote written down, jim, because I loved it when I read it from you. He said to you, quote all I have to do was you have to be loud and push us around the field. Now, what you just talked about is what that gave you was that green light, and I love it.
Speaker 2:Like as a young player, when the most senior guy on the team comes to you and gives you essentially green light to do that, you feel backed and you just do it. Like if you're getting that guy to come in and say that now, from a coaching perspective, it's a powerful one for a coach. I don't know if this did happen or whether it was just tana, but if the coach had told tana to do that, like go have a word to jimmy about, yeah, that then what a master say if that happened, that's a powerful masterstroke from a coach to understand the power that a senior player giving green light to a junior player and what you've just described is it had this effect on your whole 23-year career where you've just been not shutting up ever since, and that's exactly what you want. So there could be a nice little lesson here for coaches around your young players. The more that they can empower the senior players to instill the behaviors you want in the young players, then they just get them earlier right like those.
Speaker 1:yeah player power is massive and if coaches drip feed, that's why you come back to a good environment, a good culture and a good leadership group within the organization. The coaches are giving the key messages they need to that group and they're the ones going out and having these little conversations. That's some of the best environments I've been involved with, because what do you want to do as a player, your teammate, a senior guy coming up to you and giving you a little pointer you'll take that on so much more than a coach just saying I'll do this, do that. It's huge and I've been in a lot of teams where coaches do that and it's so empowering as a player.
Speaker 1:And if you're as a leadership group, are the ones going out and giving these little messages? How empowered do you feel as a player? And then also, you have to be accountable for that. So you're going to go out on the weekend or go out in training and if you've got a key message for your attack or your defense or whatever, then you have to lead by example because you're saying it. And if you're saying it and not leading by example, then you're accountable for it. So that power is huge and for it creates an unbelievable environment and culture.
Speaker 2:Have you had examples where, like, obviously you've become a senior player over time. Do you have coaches coming to you like there's the most experienced player in the team saying, hey, Jimmy, do you mind having a word to the young 10 and just getting through to them around X, Y and Z? Is that done regularly? That's part of your role as you transition to a senior player. Right, and good coaches tap into that yes, yeah, hugely.
Speaker 1:um, because obviously we we like coaches being around. We've played in a lot of different teams and a lot of different things, so why not use our experience to to help the young guys? And we've got all this knowledge. It would be very selfish of us just to leave it in our own brains and do nothing with it. And coaches that see that and can use that power and use us as players experienced players to give out information and our experiences to the young guys to really help them come through is huge, and that's why I think teams need you need to have experienced players within your group just for that sole aspect of the young guys learning off older guys.
Speaker 1:And sometimes it's not by saying anything. A lot of time, I believe it's not by saying anything, it's by watching and those senior players doing. I remember all myself, like, growing up, like you, I used to watch some of the old guys, how they, how they train, how they hold themselves and the best ones you learn from and you're like, yeah, exactly that's how behavior should be within a group and that's how I want to be and that's what I should do.
Speaker 2:A good coach is still pulling you up, at 43 years of age, around some stuff which, hey, jimmy, make sure you're doing a good warm-up today, mate, you've got to show the right example. Do you still get that towards the back end of your career?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, but I think personally I always hold myself. I've always said to myself if I start slipping my standards, then I'll retire. If I'm not doing the best I can do at training and all that, I had to lead by example and I think that's just the way I'm wired. But yeah, I do see some coaches pulling guys up who aren't, who are just sort of there just to be there, which 100% should happen.
Speaker 2:And what should happen 100% should happen. Now, when we're talking about your age, mate, over your huge career, we'll go back to this longevity piece, mate, because obviously as coaches, we want our players to play as long as they can preserve themselves, pick up the good habits or mindsets that help you have a great experience and longevity in the game. Have you got any that you think are good for coaches to know, which has helped you get through so many years?
Speaker 1:yeah, it's, it's a tough one, isn't it? Because there is a little bit of luck in longevity, because it's a contact sport. You know there's there's things going to happen. But I think the older the player gets and it's it's more as a coach. If you understand your player, of what makes him tick, how his body reacts to things, then you can get the most out of them by looking after them in certain aspects. You know, if you've got a 33-year-old second row who puts his body on the line every single week and he's physical, and you're a coach that does quite a bit of physical training during the week, sometimes you might be just like, hey, mate, just one or two reps this week, just look after yourself, because he knows he can bring it on Saturday.
Speaker 1:But yeah, it's a real tough one, jeremy, for coaches, because you don't want to be seen to be prioritizing players. Also, if you're a young kid and you're like, oh, that guy's not doing this bit, I'll tell you one good thing about getting over 30-odd you don't do fitness tests. Ha ha ha. But that's one good thing. The extra few K on the knees you don't need it. You on the knees is. You don't need it. You don't need it, you don't need it.
Speaker 2:It is interesting, like going back to your earlier point, is that, so long as you can explain the why Jimmy isn't doing the fitness testing in a good way, right? Like the team can understand that I say, hey, look, boys, we're going to do the fitness test. Jimmy's going to sit out because you know, when you're 43 years old the knees don't work as good, but we know when he gets out there he'll be the man running the most. And then you say something like that, right? And the team just goes yeah, absolutely fair enough, we know that one All good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, 100%, 100%. But yeah, I think longevity, a lot's going to come from the player. Coaches can do all that kind of stuff. They can modify their training, the fitness you know the S&C guys can modify to give the player the best recovery time. Because that's the main thing when we get older, isn't it? It's not the training, it's just the recovery older, isn't it? It's not, it's not the training, it's just the recovery um and and that sort of the good snc guys will will judge that pretty well, look after that. But a majority of the longevity has got come down to the player of what they're doing, their behaviors on and off the field, what they're doing to keep themselves in the best nick they can to to perform um. So it's a. It's a tough one. It's a it is a tough one. But I think with the technology and the sports science these days that you're seeing players get a lot longer. You know, when we first started, geez, there weren't many.
Speaker 1:Over 30 was there no, no not many at all, and now we're seeing loads of guys in their mid, mid 30s still playing.
Speaker 2:Well, it's also changed a lot too. I just remember the injuries you played on with back then and you just sort of hit them away. These days you don't hide it because you can get such good treatment, which can do phenomenal things right to get you back.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but also, I think, in a funny way, I think that is what's kept us, you know, kept us guys that's played longer. Playing longer would become pretty robust, you know. Yeah, but we get a little ankle sprain, nah, nah, and we crack on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you got another one.
Speaker 1:Puts your knee a little bit. Ah, nah, sweet as, chuck a bit of tape on it, we'll crack on.
Speaker 2:Oh, I love that mate.
Speaker 1:Kids these days. Oh, I'm spraying my toe. No, no, I'm out for a week. We'll just rest up. But you know that robustness in your body is pretty key to keep going.
Speaker 2:Mate, I'd imagine there'll be a lot of coaches in their 40s listening to this, jimmy, and just going how the heck can you keep playing premiership level rugby? Like my goodness, you do one gym session and then you're sore for three days in the 40s, mate. So you're doing bloody good, mate. I love it. Now there's actually one thing that I heard you say and I know this about you in terms of I think this might've been something which helps in your longevity is your ability to switch on and off from rugby is, I think it's something you've always had. You've just had that really great balance, like when you're in, you're in and you're just all there. But you're also a great man for when you're off, you're off.
Speaker 2:Like I know you're a surfer, you do lots of golf. You get. You know these days you're trying to get you know. That'll be your job soon, mate. You know people that wanting to celebrity golf tournaments it's you, that'll be the thing. But how have you done that, mate? Have you always had that? And what do you reckon coaches can do to help this in players so they're not just always in rugby to get to the professional level?
Speaker 1:yeah, I think it's really key and I think that's probably why I've been able to play so long, because I haven't burned out as in you do get. I still remember some coaches and it's different when you're in leadership aspects of a team. You're going to get information outside of rugby, like at nights and stuff, and that's a given. And when you're older you understand that. But when you're young and upcoming, if you're getting whatsapp messages and clips and stuff all the time at nights like, yes, some reviews and things do come out, but if you're constantly getting messages about rugby, about this, and oh no, have you seen that? Have you watched that? Are you doing this then you're totally gonna just think rugby, rugby, rugby, rugby 24 7 and you'll just burn out too early. Um, as a player, and it's really key for you as a player to have something going on outside of the game and if that is simple like me, I had a surfing golf and whatever family it's the ability to switch on and switch off. That's really key for me. And as a coach, how do you drive that? And it's probably it's a tough one because you've got so much information that you need and you're hoping your players understand of what you, what you're trying to achieve. But when do you send that information, extra information out? How much extra stuff do you give your players? Um, and it's I think the best teams or the best coaches I've had have sat down pretty early in the season and it's I think the best teams or the best coaches I've had have sat down pretty early in the season. And it's something as simple as right. We've got a block of six games, then we've got a week off. Lads, you've got five days off. That week, you can book whatever you want and do it. Now as a player, how many times have we been playing and it's like finish the game. Oh, lads, you've got four days off now. And we're like from tomorrow, you got four days off. And the boys are like, oh, awesome. And then the wives have still got work, the kids are still at school. Okay, I'm gonna'm going to be sitting at home doing nothing because I've had no time to prepare.
Speaker 1:And then what do you do? Oh, you might watch a bit of footy or do something like that, whereas if you've already got pre because you know the season, especially over here, mate, you know you play Tigers it's 11 months, 11 and a half months these days long. It's 11 months, 11 and a half months these days long. If you know certain parts times of the season, you've got a guaranteed break. You can book something, have a holiday or just do whatever you want. For the mind and for even the longevity To switch off is so key. And my wife used to go mad because we'd get told we've got a week off after a game and so what are we going to do now? Like we can't just take the kids out of school. It's like, oh, that's a week we've wasted, we can do something together. So those coaches who pre-plan, no matter the results, because I've had that before, you've got a week off, nah, we didn't play enough.
Speaker 2:That's an absolute trust killer. Right there isn't it, jim?
Speaker 1:It happens in France a lot, Does it really? I've heard some horror stories. But yeah, that there for a coach. You might as well just walk out of the environment because you've lost the players.
Speaker 2:I love that, mate. I think that's a really important one because there's a bit of research around in the office and business world. When you book a vacation, it's not just the vacation, that's the therapeutic part, it's the anticipation and the buildup towards it and you can get through anything because you know that's the little carrot at the end, that white light at the end, and you go, yeah, I can be all in, I can do round the clocks, because I know I've got that little nugget there for me. And that's exactly what it is in a team swap, particularly like rugby, which you're asking people to be physical and just smash their heads up against bricks, walls sometimes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you mentioned a great word there a carrot. I've got a great example the coaches that give you that carrot. As a player it does, I don't know. It gives you more motivation. Like Dai Yang who was DOR at WASP. We were, I think for the first time ever we could have finished top. We finished top of the table and we were playing Bath away and he gave us a carrot. He was like right lads, if we win this game, I think we're going top of the table before the semis and stuff. I'll give you six weeks off at the end of the season and you know, as a player you get four like max and I think we might have like. And he said we'll give you six weeks off.
Speaker 1:And I remember running around in defense Six weeks, six weeks, come on. Like it was right down towards the end of the game and like it was really close and we're holding them out, I think. And it was giving us motivation and we won and we got six weeks off. It was unbelievable scenes Like the boys were so happy, Like it was unbelievable scenes like the boys were so happy, like it was amazing. And that little carrot gave us that motivation to dig in when we really needed it, one to win the game, but we ended up getting six weeks off at the end of the season. Um, I think we went on. We lost the final um that year but we came in and we had such a short pre-season because we had six weeks off. It was great.
Speaker 2:What's the? What about the stigma? How much impact does that have? Like if you had said if you guys lose, you are coming in, you're not going to get any break. How's that contrast from a player's perspective?
Speaker 1:I think that creates too much fear. You know, as in, it's a different motivation. It's like, I don't know, I'd rather have the positive carrot and lose it than having that sort of well we're not going to be in. You know, it's like you've got something positive to think, whereas you've got a negative thought the whole time. We have to win, we have to, we have to, we have to, instead of like, oh, come on, boys, if we win, if you know like it's more like let's go, let's go. We get that six weeks and it's not like well, if you lose, you're in. Yeah, I think you've got the same. There's the same outcome, but it's a different. I just think, as a coach, always go for the positive way. Then there's a negative pullback on it because it can work the wrong way. It's boys start, you know, just get down about it.
Speaker 2:I always think of our teammate Jerry Collins, who's no longer with us, but I always liked his take on the language of the positive versus negative, which is what we're talking about.
Speaker 2:I remember when we used to play the Crusaders and a number of people used to say I hate these guys because they were our traditional rivals. And that was the sentiment I hate playing these guys and I want to get into them. But I used to sit next to Jerry and he used to say I absolutely love playing these guys, I can't wait. And he was so into it and it was just that small reframing to use positive imagery and love, like he just loved it. He was so excited to play them. He goes yeah, it's awesome. And he was using that really positive sentiment and motivation and it just was infectious and I was like, yeah, that's exactly right, rather than the negative, which is, oh, I hate this. It's like when you love stuff like you love eating ice cream but you hate doing taxes, so like there's a whole different sentiment around love stuff like you love eating ice cream but you hate doing taxes, so there's a whole different sentiment around that.
Speaker 1:Stuff isn't there when you use positive carrots versus negative sticks, huge Important for coaches. It's really important for coaches, and as players as well, to have that way of thinking because it gives you that little bit of buzz. When you're like, oh, you love something, you get a buzz. When you hate something, you get down on it. It's such a small little thing but so important, especially for a team environment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because, mate, that's exactly right. Those little things as you talked about earlier create clicks and segments and fractions and they grow and grow and grow, and that's how you lose a change room, right.
Speaker 1:Sure is the months you lost it. It ain't coming back.
Speaker 2:It's not coming back, mate, if you've ever been in an environment where it's been lost.
Speaker 1:It's not a nice place, is it? No, it's not.
Speaker 2:Have you had one, jim? Have you had a— Yep, yeah, had one, jim. Have you had a? Yeah, what happened to lose the change room as for a month that a coach did?
Speaker 1:again. Just he wasn't really transparent with everyone. It was not really his fault, we weren't doing well, you could just see in his body language and it ended up getting sacked before Christmas and we were nearly relegated and it just wasn't a good environment to be involved with. And then they brought someone else in who was the total polar opposite and highly, highly motivated and motivational he was. I suppose everyone's going to know who I'm talking about the negative one, but positive guy I don't mind name because Gary Gold.
Speaker 1:Gary Gold came in and literally transformed our team to being nearly relegated, to nearly staying in the premiership. Just his sole thing was doing the basics well, but this is why we're doing it and bringing in motivational speakers. I remember he brought in guys that had swum around the channel and guys from South Africa had done all these things and comes and talks to us the day, like just before the game, the night before in the hotel, and just motivational aspects of their life. And this is what you can do, take it into your game and the boys are like ah, let's go, like we went on this massive run and if it wasn't for a certain bath player that was showboating over the try line and got hit from behind, uh, and knocked it on, which means we went to. What had to play was the next week and instead of just having to beat them, we had to win by like 20 something points. And we won the game, but not by enough. So we got relegated, but he nearly saved us.
Speaker 1:That sheer fact that he brought in was the game plan. He said look, I have no. Um, I'm not sorry, the game plan is going to be so simple. We are here to try and win every game. We're not going to play rugby in our half. We are not going to play more than three or four phases in the middle, because we're doing everything we can to be to survive and win a game and what this is why we're doing it and honestly, it was the boringest rugby ever, but we. Why we're doing it, and honestly it was the boringest rugby ever, but we won it. And because everyone was on board and understood why we're doing this. And then he chucked in these little motivational things and the way he spoke to players was unreal. It still gives me a bit of goosebumps now talking about it. We nearly saved our whole season from the sheer fact of the way he brought the group together.
Speaker 2:Mate, isn't it cool that there was nothing particularly special about the techniques and the tactics. It was just that sort of invisible thing that he brought, just that connection, the why getting people to buy in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was pretty special and such a weird feeling Winning a game at the end but getting relegated was such a weird feeling on the pitch.
Speaker 2:I can imagine, mate. Now Jimmy, this sort of leads us into sort of the final question. Mate, it's been a wonderful chat. There's been so much good gold for coaches from no one better to deliver it than someone that's been in the game for 526 games. Is this question, mate? Is there a belief you hold about rugby or the culture of rugby which you believe in that you reckon your peers or contemporaries, or a lot of people in rugby, would disagree with?
Speaker 1:That's a funny one, isn't it? It's a different question, I suppose. You look back about culture and everyone talks about a winning culture. It's a winning culture, like it's a winning culture, but I think it's. You know, a winning culture is the outcome. It's you know how many teams actually win a championship one a year. And so, for me, creating a culture that's learning and thriving to get to where they want to go is way more important than a winning culture. Because if you do, if everyone learns and understands why they're learning. So creating a culture that is a learning culture and an understanding culture will always end up being a winning culture, because you'll put the process in the right area to win, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:Yes, it does. Why do you think people would disagree with that?
Speaker 1:Well, some people say it's just. Well, I know some people won't disagree because there's, it's a learning culture, it's what you want. But people like, well, it's not a winning culture, is it? And I'm like, well, it is. But yeah, you're just putting a word on it. Everyone talks about a winning culture, winning culture, winning culture, and, yes, winning culture, but you got to strip it back also, but then it's a learning culture. It just doesn't. People like, well, every winning culture is going to be a learning culture. But, yeah, let's talk about learning culture and let's strive to be a winning culture, but I'm probably, too, going down a hole here.
Speaker 2:No, I love it, jim. I get where you go it's a funny thing.
Speaker 1:It's like I I sort of I'm always ones that I just go with the flow and it is what it is. But I know every single culture I've turned up. It's the number one thing. You talk about a winning culture. You don't talk about anything else, it's just we're creating a winning culture. You don't talk about anything else, it's just we're creating a winning culture. And sometimes it's like, oh yeah, well, we're not winning, how can we win? And then it strips it back into oh, we need to learn what we're doing and why we're doing it. So why don't we call it a learning culture?
Speaker 2:oh, I love it, jim. It's almost going back to that sort of phrase around. It's the process. A learning culture is a process-driven culture, whereas a winning culture is ultimately an outcome-based culture which isn't always controllable. So, by what you're talking about, a learning culture is a more controllable culture to have.
Speaker 1:Well, exactly, and, as I say, not everyone's going to have. Well, exactly, as I say, not everyone's going to win. If you're trying to get a winning culture but you're not winning, you've got nothing. It feels like you're losing. If it does, it feels like you're not getting anywhere. But a learning culture you can always learn, you can always go further. Even if you're losing, you can learn again. We're just changing it. We're changing the name right there. It's a learning culture, it's not a winning culture.
Speaker 2:It's a learning culture, not a winning culture. Well, one can lead to the other, the other can't lead to the other necessarily.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:My point. I love it. Well, jeremy, what a pleasure to have you on the Coaching Culture Podcast. Before I do my little takeaways at the end, mate, just what are you up to these days, man? You're now retired after so long in the game, not?
Speaker 2:officially Well no, you got stitched up. You were telling me offline that you're maybe not retired. You're maybe, maybe not, and this is why your longevity is there. You just keep rolling out, mate. But if it's not officially retired, what's the next people will be interested. What do you do after such a long time in the game? What are you wanting to do and what's in it for you over the next transition period?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so obviously, yeah, I'm still talking to a few clubs about playing, so we'll see where that goes, but at the moment I'm coaching. I'm coaching a local team, kenilworth Rugby, so doing them Tuesday, thursday nights and we start our competition next week, so trying to get them up to speed and that's pretty cool. I love grassroots rugby. It's just something that you know you can give back and um and get them thriving. So that's cool doing that and just trying to make connections. At the moment, talking to all my connect, uh, going through my little black book, seeing I can talk to about opportunities, if, if I need to go and I need to go into work and and what that looks. Had my very first interview the other day, yeah.
Speaker 2:I heard.
Speaker 1:Which was interesting. Being 42 years old and having my first ever interview was pretty cool, so there's a few things in the pipeline, as long as, whatever industry and sector or whatever I go into, I just want to be involved with people. I think that's where my whole career I've been involved with people. Talking to people you know people from what multicultural aspects of lives and places, and so there's a bit of rugby can teach you a lot of great skills that you can take into the real world. So it's exciting, it's nerve-wracking, it's everything people talk about. Transition, it's true, but to de-stress I'm playing loads of golf at the moment, trying to play as much as I can to try and de-stress myself before I go into the real world.
Speaker 2:Well, jimmy, I love it and I know there'll be absolutely a million business owners wanting to get on the golf course with you just to rack your brain of all your wisdom for the last 23 years of professional rugby. There's so much in there and I'm pretty sure Kenworth Rugby will be looking to go up from the current level six position they're in. Fly up the ranks, mate, and get them back on track. Now, jimmy, the three points that I'd like to finish on just from my big takeaways from today are these Number one, explaining the why this is something you talked about at length today that coaches are really people, managers, and one of your biggest things you have to do is always make sure the players you're in control of understand why you're doing things, and if they don't, they generally don't trust that coach.
Speaker 2:You had a great example the way Gary Gold came into the team and transformed it by simply doing a really simple game plan, but explaining why at all costs, and it's a really great one for coaches to remember. Number two is remembering coaches to drip feed information to players in order for them to redisperse that information. You use the words. Empowerment leads to accountability, which leads to leading by example by players, and I think this is a great concept for coaches to remember, instead of it all coming from the coach by to drip feed it to different areas. It's so much more powerful, has so much more legs and is ultimately better for the team and the culture, and I think it's a really good one for coaches to remember. Number three the carrot is often so much more effective than the stick.
Speaker 2:You referenced the joy of a vacation that was planned months out in advance, and there's a bit of research to show that the anticipation of something that's forthcoming often leads you to be really productive in what you're currently doing, because you know there's something on the other side and when good coaches are planned and they put it in and don't change it, regardless of whichever French club you're with that can drop and change at the drop of a hat you actually earn a lot of trust and a lot of kudos as a coach, and your players, as you've said, love coaches that they can trust and they will follow them into battle. Jeremy Gopith, what a pleasure to have you on the Coaching Culture Podcast. It's been a long time mate.
Speaker 1:Look forward to hearing how your transition goes. Brother. Cheers mate, thanks for having me on. It's great stuff you're doing man Really good.