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Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Dan McKellar on Discipline, Culture & The Dressing Shed
Have you ever wondered what truly makes a championship team culture? Dan McKellar, current Waratahs head coach with a coaching resume spanning the Brumbies, Wallabies, and Leicester Tigers, cuts through the noise with refreshing honesty and clarity.
"Culture is just the actions of the people in the building," McKellar explains, offering a deceptively simple yet profound definition that frames his entire leadership approach. "When the last person at night shuts the door and turns the lights off, the culture goes with them. And then in the morning it comes in with the first person that walks in."
McKellar opens up about the personal sacrifices required at the highest levels of coaching, candidly admitting that family sometimes comes second – a difficult reality of high-performance environments. Yet he balances these demanding standards with genuine compassion for his players as people first, athletes second. His authentic leadership style is summed up perfectly: "If you sway too much away from what you are as a head coach, it's bullshit."
From his early days as a 25-year-old player-coach at Wicklow Rugby Club in Ireland leading men a decade older than himself, to his current role transforming the Waratahs culture, McKellar shares the leadership principles that have guided him. He emphasizes the critical importance of self-awareness, emotional intelligence, and being physically present with players rather than constantly hidden behind laptops and analysis.
The conversation explores how small moments of connection with players compound over time, building the relationships that drive performance in the most crucial moments of games. Whether you're coaching at grassroots level or leading a professional organization, McKellar's insights on balancing discipline with enjoyment, maintaining perspective after losses, and creating environments where players genuinely want to be will transform your approach to leadership and culture building.
Listen now to discover why McKellar believes the dressing room – not the trophies or salary – is what coaching is truly about.
I've got a young family and the reality is the family comes second, which is sad at some times. But you need to be able to make that sacrifice if you want to be the best team, the best organization, the best individual that you can possibly be. You can't pretend if you're hurting. You're hurting, but you can hurt for a period of time. But then you got to roll the sleeves up and get the bottom lip off the ground and move on pretty quickly. I'm big on discipline, I'm big on hard work and sacrifice and I honestly believe, ben, that you don't have success in life without those things. When the last person at night shuts the door and turns the lights off, you know the culture goes with them. And then in the morning it comes in with the first person that walks in. And if you think you know it all and you think you've got all bases covered, then you're kidding yourself. Well then it's bullshit, isn't it? If you start to pretend and do things a different way, players and staff will quickly see through that.
Speaker 2:If you sway too much away from what you are as a heat coach, it's bullshit. That's probably the quote of the podcast. Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Dan McKellar, who played a decade with the dominant South rugby team 150 games before he found his true love playing as a player coach for Wicklow in Ireland where he really found the love of the coaching side of the game. He went on to coach the Canberra Tuggernaut Vikings and then became the Brumbies head coach. He went on to assist with the Wallabies head coach of Leicester and now back in Australia as the head coach of the Waratahs. An amazing resume and an amazing bloke. Dan, welcome to the Coaching Culture Podcast.
Speaker 1:Good to be here, Ben. Thanks for having me, mate. I know we've been trying to catch up for a couple of months now, but it's nice to finally be face-to-face, although it's over Zoom or whatever it is, mate, but good to chat.
Speaker 2:Thanks, mate, and I'll tell you before we dive into the normal question. I'm intrigued at your current situation. You're actually doing some PD away with some league teams the Broncos, and you've just done the Bulldogs and I think it's a really cool one for our audience to hear that such a high-profile coach like yourself is actually taking the time away to upskill, to go into other cultures. Why do you do it and what do you get out of it?
Speaker 1:Well, the why is I want to get better. You know, and I think any coach or any professional in any industry, if you think you know it all and you think you've got all bases covered, then you're kidding yourself. So I love the professional development side of things. Professional development side of things, and over the last month I've had the privilege of going into the Canterbury Bulldogs with Cameron Seraldo and his team in there, and this week I'm spending some time with Michael McGuire and the Brisbane Broncos and I specifically chose both of those teams and organizations because they've gone through or are going through a similar path to what we're on at the Waratahs.
Speaker 1:And yeah, it's all about just getting better and growing. And you know, in the past I've spent time with um, Australian netball, with the diamonds, with Lisa Alexander and the Melbourne storm and being over to the UK and Ireland to to do a couple of trips over there and it's um, there's just little bits of gold that you always find and that you'll always take back to your own program and a lot of the time it's just reassuring what you're doing, you're on the right track. But um, great to build those relationships and bounce ideas around and share with with other professional coaches or other people that are in high performance.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you find league, because this is a very similar game to rugby union. Do you find?
Speaker 1:there's a lot of things you can like technical pickups as well as other things yeah, no, there definitely is, um, you know, I think there's, there's more and more now there's uh, I think on both games is is an influence of of of uh on rugby union, of rugby league, and I think that started back in the late 90s with with john muggleton and how he took over and started coaching defense with that highly successful wallaby team and I think now within rugby league you're starting to see traits from rugby union.
Speaker 1:You know, goal line dropouts, short contestable kicks um, contestable kicking, um in general. So I think that, um, I think it's huge respect from from one game to the next, certainly from my end. I grew up in in North Queensland. I've always loved rugby league, went to boarding school and fell in love with with rugby union um and enjoy getting into those uh nrl programs and just seeing how they do things and and seeing how they've gone about change. And, as I said, that the dogs and the broncos are both gone through significant change over the last season or the last couple of seasons and it's um, it's interesting to see how they've gone about it, do you do?
Speaker 2:you take in specific things you want to get out of it, or do you sort of go very open-minded and just let things flow in and just get a feel of the way things are going in other places?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think from a training side of things there's probably not a whole lot. I think it's more around the environment and the culture mate, which is obviously something that you're really passionate about, and how they create the environment and the culture mate, which is obviously something that you're really passionate about, and how they create the environment and the culture that they have within their own four walls, how they do meetings, how they review, how they preview. It's a long season in the NRL, so how do they keep Monday mornings excited? You know win, lose or draw how do they continue to get the players up and about at 9 am on a Monday morning when they go into a review meeting, regardless of what the outcome is from Saturday night or whenever they might have played?
Speaker 1:But yeah, I think from a training point of view, over the years I've taken certain things out. I remember going to the Melbourne Storm and sitting there watching them train and go like why are they so much fitter than every other team that they play against? And it all came back down to their contact conditioning and the amount of time that they would spend on that close quarter contact. So I took that out of that experience and implemented that back down at the Brumbies and continue to use that now at the Waratahs, because I think it's that contact conditioning, that close quarters, that physicality, that for the big men, having them really well conditioned to be able to get off the ground and do it, repeat it over and over and over again is the difference between the really good sides and the and the, you know, the also rants.
Speaker 2:I know, like the Melbourne Storm is. Actually that's part of their culture, isn't it? That sort of that wrestling thing that's their famous side of things aren't they, that's and you could like to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, john Donahue's been there a long time. You know he's coached that and obviously Craig Bellamy's very big on defense. You know the first you don't get picked in the team if you're not a good defender and you know their values and things that I really value myself. And yeah, they're a great organization and there's no surprise year on year With Frank Panese's input as well, a really good man who is critically important down there to what they do yeah, they have success.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they do. And just speaking about values I guess it's the question, dan is like how do you define culture and what's your values around that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I think you've nailed it right there in the words that you've just said, because for me, it's a question you get asked, obviously in our roles, quite a lot, ben, and culture is something that's often spoken about, but you can't measure it, you can't see it, you can't feel it, and I think, before you go to culture, I think you need to get your values right and you just use the word there yourself your values and your standards, and what do you stand for as an organization, both on field and off the field?
Speaker 1:And I think once you're really clear on what those particular things are, then the culture flows off the back of that, because really the culture is just the actions of the people within the building. And I think if you've got those clear standards and behaviors and the discipline to live and breathe it every day of the week, they're the organizations, whether it be a rugby team, whether it be a accountancy firm, a lawyer firm, whatever it might be. They're the organizations that have an environment that you want to be a part of and generally are pretty successful.
Speaker 2:I love that phrase, mate. Culture is just. It's a really simple one. Culture is just the actions of the people in the building it's a nice way of putting it and that's derived by the values. I think that's it, isn't it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, when the last person at night shuts the door and turns the lights off, you know the culture goes with them. And then in the morning it comes in with the first person that walks in and you know it's all about. We've all heard the phrase the standards that you walk past are the standards that you accept, and I think that's what your culture's built on. And making sure, first and foremost, that it's really clear on, on, on, uh, on what you expect of one another. Um, and then you go about it. You know it doesn't mean that it needs to be um, an army camp or or uh, or that sort of thing. You can have fun and enjoy each other's company and enjoy the environment at the same point in time. But you also need to be really clear on what's expected. Yeah, what do?
Speaker 2:what do? What do you expect out of your cultures, dan? What's the what's what's expected? Yeah, what do you expect out of your cultures, dan? What's some of the big, you know, phrases and values that you hold dear to your heart?
Speaker 1:Yeah, discipline. You know I'm big on discipline, I'm big on hard work and sacrifice. And look, I honestly believe, ben, that you don't have success in life without those things the ability to be able to repeat good habits day after day after day and consistently being able to deliver that. And it's within the smallest things. It might be around your sleep, it might be around your recovery, it might be around how you prepare to train, and then that flows into your training and, off the back of your preparation and your performance, around your training. That will then flow into outcomes, and I don't think it's a fluke. You know, I really do believe that the discipline, hard work and sacrifice. You know we work in a challenging environment. I know I've got a young family myself. A lot of the players have got families, other staff have got families and the reality is, at times the family comes second, which is sad at some times. But you need to be able to make that sacrifice if you want to be the best team, the best organization, the best individual that you can possibly be.
Speaker 2:Do you get a good buy-in with that, or do some players find that hard to adapt to? Or have you got a way of bringing them around, getting them to buy in selling that concept?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you've got to make it really clear to start off with around what it is, what you expect. And you know, looking at the Waratahs as an example, we've made significant change there over the last 10 months. Since I walked into the building and look, I take my hat off to the boys the buy-in has been outstanding. You know, like it's a big adjustment. It was a big adjustment for how I did things, to how things were done previously, and that's certainly not a criticism of how it was done previously, like, but we all work differently and how I work and what I expect is different to um, previous programs. So, um, but the reality is, mate, if you don't want to buy in, then then you're probably not going to stay on the bus for too long, you know, and buy in or you're going to be asked to hop off the bus.
Speaker 1:So that's the harsh reality of high performance.
Speaker 2:That's the nature of that industry, isn't it?
Speaker 1:That's it Mark, that's exactly it.
Speaker 2:And I guess it leads to this sort of question about you. Have been around a few roles. They're very high profile roles. You're coming into new organizations. How do you come into those? You do you have a process of just wait for a while, watch, or do you come in hard with? You know, this is my way come in. You got to be on board with this, or do you? How do you get manage that, that balance on that side of things?
Speaker 1:yeah, I think you know. You know you have your way of how you do things and and what. What, um, what you truly believe in you. You know as an individual and as a head coach. But I also think you need to respect the DNA of the organization that you're taking over. You know that's the reality. It's, you know, as I said, discipline, hard work.
Speaker 1:I think in our environment that there's no real surprises there, but what does that look like? What does that look like from one day to the next? But I think, making sure that you respect the DNA of the organization that you're taking over, the culture of the country that you might be coaching in I've coached in Japan, I've coached in Australia, I've coached in the UK, ireland they're all very, very different, but I think, overall, what you stand for as a coach, and as a head coach in particular, you'd never want to sway too far away from that because, well then, it's bullshit, isn't it? You know what I mean. If you start to pretend and do things a different way, players and staff will quickly see through that. Things a different way, players and staff will quickly see through that.
Speaker 2:If you sway too much away from what you are as a heat coach, it's bullshit. That's probably the quote of the podcast, but it's true though. Right, you're the leader of this operation, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's it. You've got to be authentic, you've got to be genuine, and if you're not, if you're trying to pretend to be someone that you're not. You know like I'm pretty passionate. You know I wear my heart on my sleeve. I'll care for the team that I coach, the players that I coach, and I'll ride the highs and I'll ride the lows as well, you know. And there's times there where you've got to be really self-aware of your own emotions and have that emotional intelligence, um, but you can't pretend. You know what I mean. You can't pretend if you're hurting, you're hurting, um, but you can hurt for a period of time, but then you've got to roll the sleeves up and get the bottom lip off the ground and move on pretty quickly. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Right now. No, I think it's a really important thing. You just said there, like about being you and that self-awareness I've heard you speak a number of times on the importance of self-awareness. Is that a big aspect for you of your leadership is to be really self-aware of who you are, what you are? Yeah, you want your players to be that too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it was something that I was made aware of or you know, you do those 360 degree profiles and that when I was an assistant coach and and you know I just spoke about the the traits that I present as a human being around passion and hard on your sleeve and that sort of thing, and and self-awareness was something that I learned early on in my coaching career that you need to be aware of your body language, you need to be aware of your mood. Um, you know, you have to have that emotional intelligence so that as a leader you're leading. You know, if I'm dragging my bottom lip on a Monday morning off the back of a Saturday loss or something, then the players are going to look at that, the staff are going to look at that and everyone will follow off the back of it. You know they're looking for you and for you to set the example, and it has to be a positive one. So, so that that self-awareness is massively important for me, I think.
Speaker 1:I think conflict is another thing. You need to. You need to be comfortable with conflict within any culture or high performing environment. It just has to be for the betterment of the team or the individual and it has to be respectful. And I'd say the other thing, mate is is is enjoyment. You know you have to have fun. You have to enjoy what we're doing.
Speaker 1:We have to remember who are we coaching here. We're coaching excitable, talented, uh, young men. You know what I mean. Who, who, just the reality is that they want to have fun. You know, like you want to drive through the gates of um, daceyville or wherever you might be, um and and and turn up thinking, you know, I'm going to have fun today and I'm going to work hard and it's going to be professional, I'm going to be challenged, um, and there's high expectations around how I uh do my role and know my role, but it's going to be enjoyable as well, and that's. That's something you've got to constantly remind yourself of, regardless of what the outcome is and, if I'm honest, probably got that wrong a couple of times this year Um, you know, you, you get, you get stuck in, in, in, in outcomes and results, and and and uh, you need to remind yourself what's, what's the bigger picture, what's the vision, what does success truly look like?
Speaker 2:What'd you do?
Speaker 1:um, I, I just I think it was a combination, I don't think there's one in particular. I think in front of the group, um, I didn't present that way, but on a sunday morning around my family, um, at times it would be like there'd been a death in the family. You know what I mean and you need to. You need to. You need to perk up and be like mate. The sun came up today. You know like you lost a game of footy, or you might have lost two in a row, or you might have got an injury to a significant player within your group, but you need to understand that. You know you're still upright, you're still breathing. The sun's up. You know we live in a great country. You've got to be privileged and grateful for what we do, we work in. I'm not digging holes here, am I? You know I'm coaching a professional rugby team.
Speaker 1:If you had told me 25 years ago I'm coaching the Waratahs and then I'd spent 10 years coaching the Brumbies, you know I would have laughed. So you've got to remind yourself of why you're in it and just remember to love it.
Speaker 2:That's right and I think it's an important point too. You just raised about your family stuff, and sometimes family comes second, which is unfortunate, and they copped the Sunday morning when you weren't at your best. But that is something that probably a lot of up-and-coming coaches don't probably appreciate to their inner the impact it has on professional coaching, on your family. It's a tough ask, isn't it? There's a lot of like in your case. It's moving around all over the show and you've got a family you've got to take with you, and it's the nature of that, is a stress which is not always seen. Is it in the public eye? You see the coach sitting in the box doing whatever, but sometimes how does that sit with you? How do you get the balance right? Or do you get the balance right with the family side of stuff?
Speaker 1:Yeah, balance right with the family side of stuff. Yeah, not always. Uh, that that's. That's. That's the reality. Um, it's. You know, you, you try and separate yourself and keep the laptop in the in the bag at home, but, uh, coaching is, is, is, it's all consuming, you know what I mean. Like for for the wife, for the kids.
Speaker 1:Um, thankfully, I've got an incredibly supportive wife, carla, and my daughters, you know, they're now 18 and 16. They've basically grown up around rugby union and around Saturday afternoons or they'll be at South or they'll be at Tuggeranong or the Bright Lights of Super Rugby. You know what I mean. So it's all they know and they love it, you know, and they're incredibly supportive. But, yeah, they're the ones that see the really, really low moments and experience the low moments. You know what I mean. Obviously, leicester was really tough for us as a family. The girls loved the experience of living in Leicester. She went to an unbelievable school at Oakham School and then, like that, to tell them we're actually going back to Australia. That was really tough, really tough for them and it's been tough for a period of time, to be honest. So, yeah, you need to have a supportive family and you need to make sure that, whilst at times, as I said, they do come second, no one's more important.
Speaker 2:Correct. Do you have ways of dealing with that stress that you could pass on to coaches coming through? Like, how have you worked through that Cause? It's difficult, right? Like, have you had ways of doing that or is it just time and experience which has helped?
Speaker 1:Yeah, certainly, time and experience helps the more, the more you experience it, and there's always stress in this game. Like you can be sitting second on the on the ladder Ben, ladder ben, and, and you've got the stress of wanting to stay there, um, and, and how do I get to first? Or you could be sitting second last and have the stress of trying to squeeze out a result to get off the bottom of the table. You know, there's always stress and pressure within, within this environment. I think, like anything, you need to talk to people and I think, men, we're probably getting better at it now than what we were, say, five or 10 years ago. You need to just say you know and you need to have your people that you know. We spoke about Chris Webb before. He'd be someone that I'd pick up the phone to and or he'd call me, you know, laurie Fisher, um, these sorts of people that you talk to, your wife and and um, and people that you really trust and value. And sometimes you've just got to unload. It's like anything. You just have to unload.
Speaker 1:Like I like to exercise, you know, and get in a sauna and that's you know, caring for yourself. I think that's really important. I remember talking to Anthony Seabold about it. You know I've done some PD with the Seabs over the years and that self-care is something that he spoke a lot about. You know I've done some pd with the siebes over the years and that that self-care is something that he spoke a lot about, you know. And then you know we tell the players to sleep well, eat well, train hard, recover well, do all these things. But as coaches and as staff, sometimes we live off three hours sleep, don't eat great um, forget about training I need to get my head in the laptop to look at this and don't exercise yourself. So getting yourself in a routine where you are genuinely looking after yourself, because you know things can turn if you don't. So it's important that you have that self-care.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think like just from my experience too that as a general rule, coaches can sort of lose their self-care quite quickly. Once they get the bug of coaching right, it sort of becomes all-consuming. Before you know it, you've been sitting at the laptop for six hours and everyone else is in bed. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, mate. And then you do that for 12 months and you've got access to the buffets on the road and that sort of thing. All of a sudden, you're 10 kilos heavier than what you were in January.
Speaker 2:That's not good. And then you just go oh well, I'm this far in, I might as well keep going. Is that right? Yeah?
Speaker 1:And then you've got to dig yourself out of the hole. That's right.
Speaker 2:That is absolutely right. Well, mate, it's actually ironic that we're sitting in the background is your personal gym at home, which is very impressive, mate. The man den downstairs is a very cool concept.
Speaker 1:I apologize to the listeners. I certainly I was trying to blur that out in the background, but my technical skills are not that high mate.
Speaker 2:Anyway, it is what it is, no mate, I think it's a little gold nugget in itself that that has become such a thing for you and you value the importance of looking after yourself and how that flows on to your profession that you would invest in making a good place at home where you can actually get away and and look after yourself, mate. I think it's awesome. Um, now I'm keen, dan, just to go back a little bit, because a lot of our coaches are obviously not at the highest end, but you didn't start your coaching career at the highest end. You started at Wicklow Rugby Club in Ireland, just out of Dublin, and you went there as a player coach essentially, and, as I understand it, that's where you fell in love with the game. Why did you go and what did you get out of coaching like that at 25 years old, and how did that light you up? What did you take away from that awesome experience?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, before Wicklow. So if I go back to when I was a kid, I said to you earlier on look, I grew up in North Queensland so I used to watch a lot of rugby league and I'd be sitting there before you get all the statistics back in the day and I'd be doing the tackle counts and that sort of thing and dad would be with me. Just, you know, thinking what are you doing that for, mate, like you're a bit strange. So I always had this bug to want to coach, even at school. You know, I went to Townsville Grammar and in grade 12, I coached the under 13s and then, anyway, not that many years later, I got an opportunity to go over to Wicklow as a player coach and as a 25-year-old when you're coaching 35-year-old tradesmen and blokes that have been around the block, you know and had played at a decent level. It was certainly a little bit daunting at times, but I think I just went in there and I think what I got right was I was just myself. I was like I'm not here to know everything. There's a couple of things we're going to do, boys, we're going to train hard. I'm going to get you fit. We'll be well organized and well planned and I reckon, off the back of being well planned and well organized and fit, then we'll win more games than we lose. And we ended up getting promoted, um, and that was a great outcome and a great result for for the club. But you know, the beauty of rugby union is you can go and play anywhere in the world.
Speaker 1:Just about these days and the friendships and the memories that that I still have now, I would go back as wallaby's assistant coach. Um, normally on a tuesday night, after we've had our test match tuesday, we'd have one that wednesday off in dublin. I'd get on the road and go down to wicklow. I've done that a number of times and there's 30 of the boys that I used to coach sitting in Phil Healy's with a Guinness in hand waiting to have a beer with. You know what I mean. It's just such such special times. But, um, I certainly got the bug there and, as I said early on, I think, the things around discipline and hard work, but making sure that we enjoy it, um, we got right back then as a 25 year old and there's still three things for things for me now that are critically important to any team that you coach.
Speaker 2:How did you approach? I know you said, just be yourself, but as a 25-year-old telling 35-year-olds to work harder and have discipline, did you get any pushback on that? Because that's tough for young coaches to be able to do that. Well, yeah, how did you do?
Speaker 1:it. I think that the best thing I did, ben, was I did it with them, so I didn't ask them to do anything that I didn't do myself. You know what I mean. So I, um, whilst I'd sit there and I'd have the whistle and I'd have the session plan in pre-season, anyway, I I did. I did the training with them and I think off the back of that, they respected that. I think if I had a sat back on the and on a seat on the sideline with a clipboard and a whistle as a 25-year-old and giving it to them, they probably wouldn't have liked that.
Speaker 1:But in pre-season I took the approach that, right, I need to lead from the front here, and off the back of that, did you earn their respect or whatnot? I'm not sure. But obviously once you get into games as a coach, it's just a little bit difficult, especially as a player coach. Right, I'll put my head in here, I'll pull back out. I've got a direct and coach and guide here. So getting that balance right. But I think throughout pre-season, the best thing I did was roll the sleeves up and get stuck into it with the likes of Cyril Armstrong, and these boys have you taken like an element of that through to your coaching currently Do you sort of not necessarily getting in and doing the pre-season cause?
Speaker 2:that would be a tough ask in a professional world but is there any element of that that you carry through to today's coaching?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I wouldn't last a minute with these boys. These days they are a big, fit, strong, powerful man. But I think you know you go back to that self-care side of things that I was talking about before and you've got to look after yourself and you need to set an example there and have standards personally. I think that's how you show it and lead from the front from that perspective these days. How you show it and lead from the front from that perspective these days. You know, I think you know if I was to sit there and not look after myself and be overweight and be lazy and sloppy, but then you know, do as I say but not as I do, sort of thing, I think that approach is short-lived yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, have you done any other sort of self-care stuff outside of the gym and the physical work? Do you recommend sort of emotional, mental work as well as a coach?
Speaker 1:I certainly recommend it.
Speaker 1:I haven't done anything professionally or overly structured, but certainly that's from when I first started coaching. Now, and and my wife Carla was the first one that spoke to me about emotional intelligence and and um, and that's not just from a coaching perspective, but that's from a relationship and and um, you know, just just like that that's. That's a harsh truth, isn't it? You know, and that, and she was the first person to really put me onto it and make it important for me and and I think, um, off the back of that, you soon work out that um, you know how you emotionally respect the feelings of other people, regardless of how you might feel at that particular time is is so important, you know, and just being able to have that ability to take a breath and pull back and be like, right, right, I'll just listen here, I won't say anything. When I first started coaching, my first reaction would have been to talk instead of listening and pulling back, and so I've never done anything. You know that's overly structured, but the importance of it is huge.
Speaker 2:I love that. Do you think you're like just what you said about Carla there, about her having the influence of you, that emotional intelligence? Do you think that's not a role? But do you think that's a really a wonderful thing for coaches to be able to have Someone that they can be there with a partner to the side that can offer them the opposite to what they're doing? Has that been a big one for you?
Speaker 1:Oh, massively, like honestly, I will often ask Carla what she thinks around certain things. You know, like obviously the tactics and the strategy and that sort of thing. She might pipe up every now and then and tell me that we've got to do this or we've got to do that, but around the off-field side of things and the the emotional side of things, um yeah, she's been a great support and, um, a great sounding board for me over over a long period of time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, very, very, uh, very, uh, fortunate, yeah, I find that sort of things are really, um, an amazing rabbit warren of stuff for coaches and often understated. I think the power of just that rock at home to, to just when you're stressed, when you're maybe not thinking as clearly or as unbiased as you can, to have someone to just able to vent and offer a neutral perspective, is important, isn't it?
Speaker 1:that's it, that's it, and sometimes you just said it. You know sometimes you need to vent and and and get things off your chest, but then then you also need that, that other voice or that person that you trust that can, that can help keep you on track and just be like okay, it's, it's, it's okay, you'll be fine. Have you thought about this?
Speaker 2:I often have a similar one too with my children too, dan. Like I actually find them great influences on practicing different styles of getting things across. Like I kind of think coaching is very similar to parenting and you've got to experiment. Massive Kids change over ages of life and you've got to redo the way you talk to them and you can't talk to them a certain way and do you find the same?
Speaker 1:Oh, definitely, definitely. Yeah, that's exactly it. It's a similar sort of conversation, like we were talking about schoolteachers just on the weekend. We just had a barbecue at home and the girls my daughters, are 18 and 16 and Carla and a mate of mine was around and we were talking about schoolteachers and you know, I love this schoolteacher, I love that schoolteacher, and I was just cooking the sausages, you know, and, and uh, and listening, and listening. But I was listening. I was like um, a really interesting topic, you know. And I said to them, I said I bet you I know why you love that schoolteacher, or you love this schoolteacher, and I said it'll come back to the care.
Speaker 1:I said that person had an interest in you as a person, first and foremost, and that teacher cared about you and off the back of that, and they all agreed, they agreed 100%. It wasn't because they're a great math teacher and they made them great at algebra, or they helped with their literature or helped writing an English paper or whatever it might be. It came back to you. And I think of the same with my own school teachers that I loved and adored, and it's coaches are exactly the same. Parents are obviously the same. They know that first and foremost is that your kids know that you're there for them to care for them and love them. Sometimes it's got to be tough love, but I think your players need to think the same way, or you need your players to think the same way that you're there for them as an individual, as a human being, first and foremost.
Speaker 2:Love that and I guess, as a leader, how do you find the balance between potentially being honest and direct in a high performance environment, yet still showing your care and showing genuine compassion? How does that balance?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's challenging, there's no doubt. You have to be honest, and I certainly demand of myself that I give my players honest feedback, and what I'll do is I'll put myself in their shoes as the player. And what would I want from my coach in that particular time? And it always comes back down to the truth. You want the truth, you want to be told the truth, whether it's around selection or performance or field issues, whatever it might be. You, you want the truth, and, and sometimes you have to deliver that in a way.
Speaker 1:That's not always the most popular way, um, but they also need to know that, first and foremost, you got their back, um, and that takes time. It takes time to build those relationships and those connections, but your players need to know that you're there for them as a man, as a human being, more so or equally as you are as their rugby coach, and that's the carrot and the stick, isn't it? And the best coaches have got the ability to be able to know when to produce the stick okay, or when to put an arm around and give him a hug and give them that little bit of support that they need, whether it be off the field, whether it be on the field. I've had players in my office in tears over relationship breakdowns and that sort of thing, and players who I would not think would come and talk to me about that. But when they leave you know that you've done the right thing in terms of knowing that the door's open there and they feel comfortable to walk in and have that conversation with you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess that's instant feedback for you that they feel like you care enough that they can be that emotional in front of yourself, right that's it, that's it, that's it.
Speaker 1:And I think that's when you know. You know, obviously, whilst it's a tough time for that particular person, you know that you've got the balance right there and it's so important that you know, whoever it is, whoever your leader is with, whatever you do, that, firstly, you know that they care for you have you had any misses on that, Any standout moments where you've gone thing?
Speaker 2:you know that they care for you. Have you had any misses on that, Any standout moments where you've gone? I won't be doing that again. That's made an impact.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's times where you know you always geez, maybe I went a bit too hard there or, you know, maybe I was a little bit too soft, maybe you needed a little bit more tough love there than did I take the right approach? There's never a right or a wrong, but you'll always reflect and ask yourself whether you got it right or wrong. But I think for the most part there's certainly going to be players that will be like would this bloke, leave me alone? But as I always say to the boys and I say to them, I say, look, I'm only going to ride you on the field hard because I want you to be the best player you can possibly be, whatever it might be, whatever the fundamental skill might be. I'm going to challenge you and I'm going to make sure and you'll hear my voice ringing in your ears probably that night. But understand that it's coming from a good place. And then, when you're off the field, then the other side of it needs to take over.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love it, mate. It's cool. It definitely sounds like parenting, isn't it? When you're weighing up whether you've been too soft or been too hard on the kids or your players? It sounds exactly the same. Yeah, that's it, I think, with coaching you too hard on the kids or your players, it sounds exactly the same.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's it. I think with coaching, you've got the assistant coaches, who are like the big brother, and then you've got the head coach, who's like the dad. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2:It's parenting 101. Yes, well, there's so much to be said about like it's probably it's a cool thing to be a parent when you're also a coach, right, like because it actually forces you to actually see another side of you know, leading and helping people be the best versions of themselves. Because you're doing it 24 7, like when you get home you're not just playing playstation, you're actually got a secondary role.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah I've got a, that's it yeah, I've got a quote from you which sort of sums up what you just said. You said this a while back the time you invest with each individual in an organization will mean a lot to them and strengthen their connection to the organization. Is that something you still stand by, that sort of concept around the time and actually has a flow on effect to the wider organization?
Speaker 1:Definitely yeah, without a doubt. And being able to give any individual within the group so it might be Jake Gordon or Dave Parecki, who naturally they're senior players you're going to invest more time in them, but are you going to take the time out of your own day to give 10 minutes to a senior academy player or the youngest player within the group and make sure that they feel like they're valued and that they feel a part of it and that you know who they are, you know what they're doing, what their lives look like away from footy, but I think certainly investing in each individual is critical and it's time consuming. It is Like you've got 30-odd staff. You've got 40-odd players.
Speaker 1:Pleasing 70 people from one day to the next is incredibly tough. But just making sure that you give them that it might even just be saying g'day and stop and ask them how did you play on the weekend? You know how'd your game go for their club or whatever it might be, but just again, just giving them that moment where to you it's water off a duck's back to them. It means so much and you need to remind yourself of that as a head coach or as a leader, because that banks up over time and as the relationships grow and time allows for it, those moments become bigger and bigger and bigger and all of a sudden you've got a group that know that they've got not just a head coach but a group of staff that genuinely are invested in them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's just the reality, because I hear a lot of coaches say I just don't have time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, You've got to make it. You've got to make it right and making sure that you free up time at the right moments of days to be able to just be in and around the players and just be present. You know what I mean. You don't need to be front and center of the conversation, but just be present and be visible to them and not be tucked away in your office.
Speaker 2:Yes, drag yourself away from the laptop and be present and visible. Marker, that's coaching gold, like that's the sort of stuff which you don't get taught about that stuff when you're doing your level two, threes coaching, do you? This is the stuff which actually sells the technical stuff which you will teach better right Like this. The flow on effect is this that when you teach, you've got a engaged, invested audience because you've been present and you've been seen to be present.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's it and that's that's something that I've had to. I've had to learn. You know, like I think when I first started coaching professionally at the Brumbies um, it was all about you. Just, you just want to earn their respect by being so well planned and organized and make sure your sessions and your drills and your coaching time is um is at the level that it needs to be at Um, but then over time it's like right, that's obviously important, but making sure that you, you take the time to um to get away from the laptop and and uh and enjoy each other's company at the right moment is just as important to the group.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what do you enjoy doing? What's your little ones you do with your players? Dan, Do you have any sort of go-to little things that you do that you just sort of say this is how I'm going to connect? I know some coaches just like handshakes or knuckles. Do you have anything specific you do that works?
Speaker 1:I don't have any special handshake. I remember scotty seo. He had about 35 handshakes. I was always intrigued on how, on how, he remembered them all. But um, no, as I said, you just want to be around the group, you know, and um, and make sure that you you have those conversations.
Speaker 1:I always like to make sure that your meetings start off with um a little lighthearted, you know, asking the players how the weekend was and trying to drag a story out of them or here or there, and then obviously connect with them one-on-one away. You know, I think at the right time I like to have a beer with the boys and just relax. It's certainly not something where you're going out until all hours of the morning, but just after a game. You know, the dressing shed is such a special and unique environment and just being able to sit around and crack a beer, if they want to have a beer or a Pepsi, whatever it might be and just enjoy that moment. That is so special about the changing room and that's why I started coaching.
Speaker 1:To be honest, I never started coaching to be a pro. I only ever started coaching because I wanted to stay connected to the game and and I was scared that I would miss that, um, that dressing shed feel, where you celebrate the wins and and and you obviously commiserate and and and think hard about the losses. But, um, I think that's that's really important and that's where you can, when you can genuinely connect players and be like right, they've just gone to war. For you, well, maybe not war, but they've put themselves in some dark places for you and for your team. As head coach, now's your time to show them that you really appreciate it and respect it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that, and it just leads into this quote I've got for you I don't coach for salary, I coach for trophies. The boys I coach for the dressing shed. You said that a while back. That's a great phrase. How do you coach the dressing for the dressing shed? Like, how do you implement that?
Speaker 1:Um, I just love the feel of of, of singing the team song, you know like, with the blood, the sweat and the tears you shake hands, you give each other a hug, the jubilation of of. There's so much that goes into it. You know yourself, mate you've played at this level what goes into a Monday to get ready for Tuesday, for Tuesday, to get ready for Wednesday, wednesday for Thursday. There's all the little things that people just do not see. They see the 80 minutes and the bright lights, but we see what the players put themselves through.
Speaker 1:Training these days is so tough, training is hard and you have to train hard if you want to be successful. It's as simple as that. So then, at the end of that 80 minutes on a Friday night or a Saturday night, whenever it might be, if you've got the privilege of being able to celebrate a win, then that, for me, is what it's all about Arm in arm, singing the team song, having real pride in one another and the performance that you've just put out, but also pride in the jersey and pride in the people that have worn it before you. That's, for me, is what rugby union's always been built on in my time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's still like that, right, that's still a massive part of the game, right, yeah?
Speaker 1:definitely, mate, Definitely. There's always times where you just have to say to the S&C coaches right, our boys will park the protein shakes for now in the ice baths and we'll put a couple of twoies on ice and let the boys enjoy it A couple of twoies I'll tell you what the generation. These days they're a lot smarter around alcohol and choices and that sort of thing than certainly my generation was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a big difference, right, it is a noticeable, palpable difference.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think this is probably one good thing of social media. Social media is everywhere. Obviously now, and I think a positive of that is, young men and and and women are, uh are really aware of the importance of physical health, mental health and and how how you go about making sure that you are healthy and and and they make better choices. You know, like, uh, the importance of exercise and, um, looking after yourself. Between the ears, and, yeah, it's there, uh, we didn't have that in the 90s, mate, or the early 2000s, and, yeah, and we did what we did, you know, but, um, these days, they certainly, yeah, they're a lot more clued on how do you have you adjusted over time with that?
Speaker 2:obviously not growing up with it yourself, or the, or because you were brought up in pubs, though right, that was your upbringing through pubs, and so how have you adjusted to that aspect, like the changing demographic and the people that are coming through as players, for you are very different mindsets than what you played with, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, they are, I still think, at the right time and the right place. They still enjoy each other's company and some of them will have a drink doing it and some will not have a drink. I think it's it's it's it's been well planned and and making sure that you allow that time for a connection. It doesn't always need to be over a beer or or whatever.
Speaker 1:For me, connections are really important part of any team. Um, if you, if you know and feel connected to the person beside you, then you'll you go that little bit further, you'll go that extra yard and in the 78th minute, when you're defending your goal line, that really plays an important role. So I just think the whole connection piece and I don't think there's been a huge adjustment for myself in terms of I just let them know that if they want to at the right time, if they want to have a beer together and enjoy each other's company, then they're men, they've got that option or that choice to do so. Or if they want to go and do a completely different activity away from that, then that's on them. But one thing that we have always valued is making sure as a team that we feel connected both as players and as staff.
Speaker 2:It's an important feeling to get A, and not always an obvious way to do it right. There's often a million things you can do to get connected.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you can't really force it. It's got to be organic. You can't pretend or fake it. Sydney's a bit, you know. You can't pretend or or fake it. Um, you know Sydney's a big city. You've got players that live one end of Sydney, live on the other end of Sydney and there's there's a fair amount of travel time in between that. But again, if you've got that team first mentality and that that mindset that you want to um, you want to do what's best for for the team and make that sacrifice that's needed, then regardless of where you live or what's required, if there's a group connection activity on, then you'll be there.
Speaker 2:Oh, mate, I love that. Such a good place too to actually connect. There's a gazillion beaches you can get to right which certainly lend themselves to good connection Love it.
Speaker 1:That's it mate Over a meal, whatever it might be. Love it. That's it mate Over a meal, whatever it might be, love it.
Speaker 2:Dan. It's got to that time, mate, where I've got one more question for you. It's one we always sign off on. It's this what's one belief or practice that you have that you believe your peers would disagree with?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, it's just a good question, mate. That's um, yeah, I I don't know if I don't know if everyone would disagree with it. Um, like, I, I think there's. You can be disciplined, you can be ultimate professionals, you can challenge and have conflict, but at the same point in time you can have fun doing it and you can like you can challenge and have conflict but at the same point in time, you can have fun doing it and you can still love doing it.
Speaker 1:And I think for me, you know whether there's disagreement with that or not. Maybe there isn't. I'm sure there are some coaches that are. But basically what I'm saying is that when you go to work, we've got the standards and the expectations and discipline that's required to ensure that the work's done at the level that we all expect of one another, but you can still enjoy it. And I think when you've got a team where the players drive, that that's really powerful. That's really, really powerful. And I think that's the exciting part for us at the Waratahs. You know we've made significant change across the first season Moving forward, now I want to start to take a step back and the players have got to take ownership of it.
Speaker 1:It doesn't mean you don't lead and coach as hard as you have in the past. But the expectation now is everyone knows what we need from one another. Now the players have got to grab it and take ownership of it, and that's not just with the standards and the discipline, that's also with the fun and making sure that you have fun. I reckon that would be the mate, the big thing for me, that that some people may agree with and some people may not agree with standards, discipline, fun all together as one yeah that's it, mate.
Speaker 1:That's it. That's it. I think if you've got all three of those things, your team's in a good spot.
Speaker 2:Mate, I love it. There's definite value. It's an interesting one too around that discipline, because discipline, when you say that word, the connotations are often the negative right. But that's just how it's packaged and sold.
Speaker 1:It's just good daily habits, consistent daily habits that are at the level required. That's all it is. We're not asking them to invent electricity or do anything out of the ordinary here. You know what I mean. All we want is for them to just have good, consistent daily habits. And the reality is you'll be in the building for three or four hours and within that three or four hours just be the best pro you can possibly be and when you're not in the building, make good choices and understand that you always represent the organization and team that you're a part of.
Speaker 2:Oh, mate, that's a cracking finish. Love it, mate, Love it.
Speaker 2:Well Dan before you go, I'd just like to sum up the three little bits, the takeaways that I got from this conversation, mate, because it's been awesome, but I always like to just wrap up and just the ones that stuck out for me, and they are this people in the building, and I really loved it. I loved how you said it comes in with the first person when they walk through the door in the morning and it ends with the last person turning off the lights and I just thought it was a lovely concept around just the whole organization and the actions of the people in it. I just love that definition that you used.
Speaker 2:Number two, the importance you placed on self-care of coaches and as coaches set in the example. You don't have to do the pre-seasons like you once did, but you do have to just be aware of that and the importance of it. And you talked about consistent daily habits and for me, when I heard that, I thought that's the same for your coaching self-care practices, whether that's PD, like you're doing gym sessions, and your emotional intelligence, which your wife Carla has been big on improving in yourself. And number three is drag yourself away from the laptop, be present, be visible and these sort of actions. When you do that banks up. Over time, those moments get bigger and bigger and bigger and they flow onto all aspects of the organization and I think that's a lovely thing whether you're coaching at grassroots level or at a very big organization like yourself to remember that it's not always about just the catch pass. There's bigger parts to it.
Speaker 2:Dan mckella, thank you very much for joining us on the coaching culture podcast. It's been a pleasure, yeah, great thanks. Really enjoyed the chat. Ben and um Keller, thank you very much for joining us on the Coaching Culture podcast.
Speaker 1:It's been a pleasure, yeah, great Thanks. Really enjoyed the chat, ben. And thanks very much, mate, and yeah, good to catch up. Cheers brother.