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Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
The World Is Your Classroom: How Rugby Tours Build Character. Ken Grover.
Want to find out more for how to organise a school tour:
https://gullivers.com.au/rugbyschooltours/
What happens when young athletes step outside their comfort zones and experience the world through the lens of rugby? Ken Grover, the 79-year-old founder of Gulliver's Travel, has been answering this question for over four decades through more than 4,000 tours worldwide.
From his early days touring with Norths Rugby Club in 1973 to organizing massive contingents for Rugby World Cups, Ken has witnessed firsthand how travel transforms young people. "The epitome of culture is going to Japan," he explains, describing how tours expose players to different approaches both on and off the field—from the Japanese respect for opponents through bowing to their practice of cleaning locker rooms after matches.
The power of these experiences reaches far beyond rugby skills. Parents have called Ken saying, "Thank you, we've got our son back," after seeing positive changes in their children following tours. These transformations happen through the natural consequences of touring life: players learn punctuality, respect for opponents, and adaptability when facing unfamiliar challenges.
What makes Ken's perspective particularly valuable is his recognition that tours create "learning curves that never end." The unexpected situations—like navigating a cyclone during the Japan World Cup or adapting to different playing styles—often provide the most meaningful growth opportunities. As he puts it, "Failure as well as success are two sides of the coin, and they're both very important in the learning curve."
Perhaps most significantly, rugby tours build connections that transcend the sport itself. The shared experiences create bonds that last decades, forming networks of friendship and support that extend throughout players' lives. "Rugby is a special place where you can go anywhere in the world and meet rugby people," Ken observes, highlighting the sport's unique ability to create global community.
Ready to transform your team through the power of travel? Discover how a rugby tour could become the defining experience that helps your players grow not just as athletes, but as leaders, global citizens, and better versions of themselves.
If you can SUBSCRIBE, RATE, and SHARE the show and series, you would be doing your bit to grow this show. Very appreciated. Ben
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www.coachingculture.com.au
The epitome of culture. It's always been helping each other, and that doesn't matter what walk of life, from running a country to a business, to a family, anything that's about the cohesion of working together. What I love about it, it's the ultimate sport, and I've actually had parents ring me from thank you, we've got our son back and that's because, as the journey has gone underway, they've actually improved with their culture. Failure as well as success is the two sides of the coin, and they're both very important in the learning curve. Mate. The way I talk to the kids is all about fun and I know lots of things that the kids do, but generally you'll find that they all toe the line with the discipline of Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership.
Speaker 2:I'm Ben Herring and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today, I'm joined by someone who has lived and breathed both rugby and travel for decades, from running on field alongside wallaby legends, to help him create life-changing experience for thousands of young people. Ken grover is at present the oldest guest we've had on the show, at 80 next year. He has a unique perspective on culture and how it's built, both on and off the field. He is the driving force behind gulliver's travel, starting this company 42 years ago. He's overseen more than 4,000 tours worldwide, not only rugby, but also other sports, music and education. Ken, welcome to the show. It's a privilege having you on. Thank you.
Speaker 2:Now, just for a little bit of context, I'm in the middle of organizing a couple of tours myself and I've sat down with you and talked about touring and what its value is, and you've done over 125 tours at Newington College, so you're the perfect person to talk to. And just the culture, the connection, what I can do for young people. I thought it's really important to share this conversation with all of the people that are leading teams listening to this podcast. So I'd like to start with that in mind. The big question is how do you define culture?
Speaker 1:Well, culture is a double situation where it's either good or bad. Bad culture is well documented by the media and society and often it's where children don't have the opportunities of discipline at home, and it all does stem from home and then through to the schools. Often I have seen one of the most pleasing things, if we define it, where I've been working in travel, just where you'll see people that do have a better culture the planning of the tour, the fundraising, getting involved, not turning up to training or rehearsals and so on, and as the journey has gone underway they've actually improved with their culture, learning that if you don't sit in with it you're late, and so on. Even to adult tours and we're talking about the youth. But I've seen kangaroo tours where people are continually late.
Speaker 1:Reg Gasney was our famous rugby league player in Lucerne. They were late four days in a row, so we'd go into Paris, so we just left them behind. They soon learnt that you turn up, so that's a good way to do it. You can't really do that with schoolchildren, but in a minimal number of circumstances we've had staff actually, through misbehaviour, send schoolchildren home. But that would be absolute minority because they soon learn after they're having such a good time and so on, that they don't want to lose their place on the tour. So the discipline's there and it must be there. But for whatever following they're on, you soon learn that if you're on a tour and it can be pre-season, which is preparation for the season post it can be dangerous where there's nothing to play for. But you soon learn with my experience playing teams like like Cardiff, where we went on a end of season tour and it was certainly having a good time, but we soon learned after about 10 minutes against Cardiff that they weren't there.
Speaker 1:As this is all saying, there's no such thing as a friend's on football. For the health of the club that and several players got seen off from both teams and so on. So I think the culture the pleasing thing for me is what you can learn.
Speaker 1:The epitome of culture is going to Japan where you've learned from the national team down, where after the game they clean the change rooms, all that sort of thing, and bowing to the opposition, respecting the crowd and seeing the many teams that we're sending to Japan now, mainly because of that effect that it has on the players, that it's a learning curve where they've had these opportunities to experience in that and I've actually had parents ring me from lower socioeconomic areas that have gone into it, where they've raised the money, the discipline, through a local church in the western suburbs where parents have rung me, and it really goes back to the staff, which, I want to stress, it's all about them.
Speaker 1:I'm just the figurehead, but, thank you, we've got our son back and that's because of that. I love the way the Polynesians when, as I said, no friends in the football field, where they get stuck into each other and they get back in the mutual respect through their faith, where they join together after the game, which some people are amused, but it's certainly, I think it's something to be really looked at.
Speaker 2:I love it, Ken, and so I love the way you talked about. The culture is something which can be improved and you can learn a lot as you go. Have you seen culture evolve? You've obviously been almost 80, 80 in XGS. You've seen a huge, broad spectrum of different cultures at your rugby, starting way back in well 73 when you toured England. How has culture evolved from you through rugby?
Speaker 1:Well, primarily it's rugby, but it is across the board in all disciplines. I wouldn't just single out rugby. I've got different examples One of the best areas where we've had mismatches with teams going overseas Trinity Graham, a football team, about 20 years ago went to Real Madrid and played their under-16 team, which was quite intimidating A to get a start there but actually play the game and they were outclassed. But watching the boys and the progression of standards and the teamwork and so on was fascinating to watch and I really really liked that sort of it's where, instead of giving up though it could have been overawed they just kept going and going and actually scored a goal towards the end.
Speaker 1:The flip side of that is David Beckham had just signed with Real Madrid and much speculation and the whole thing about that, and he'd been a problem person, sometimes very unfairly, and he was very badly treated in the Premier League and so on. And yet here he is, where he's come across to introduce himself to these kids from Sydney and he spent about half an hour talking to him. The most embarrassing thing was the staff wouldn't let the kids in too much. They wanted to talk to him and idolise him all of the kids but it was just seeing David Beckham progress to that sort of level and what he is today isn't it amazing how tours like just open up the world to things you wouldn't even know, opportunities and experiences, um, that you just couldn't fathom, and that's a great example.
Speaker 2:but every tour has a scale of that. I'd like, ken, just to talk about how this all started for you, like a long time ago 1973, we're talking about off-air Norse. You were playing for Tour England and back in those days it was a month-long tour Wasps, saracens, harlequins, just to name a few of the teams which are still around, which you played. But you talked afterwards about you're a little bit lost in terms of what you were doing lost pathway, no job and you said that you came back from that one-month tour with your rugby team and told your mom I know exactly what I want to do and where I want to go with my life. And it was around about giving that same experience to others. And you created a tour group, the Count of His Travels.
Speaker 1:Can you?
Speaker 2:just explain. What was it about that tour which just lit you up and you've created a tour company now for the last 42 years which is leading the way. What is it about that first tour that stuck with you so strong?
Speaker 1:Probably what really resonated was I did national service for two years and that's another long story how I ended up at North Head to play rugby, mainly through track and field background and so on, and got posted there for two years and I met a bloke by the name of Bob Fulton who completely changed my life as far as culture and nothing was impossible to achieve Training with him, watching him, you know. We'd do long runs on a Friday before we'd play on Saturday. I couldn't keep up, he'd just thrive on it and absolutely he's the sort of guy that doesn't matter what it is, he could achieve it. We went into farms together out at Quambarn. I was an absolute passenger but I learnt about he could do anything. Suddenly we had the droughts. They wasn't eating cattle, they were shooting cattle at birth next to us, all this sort of stuff. And suddenly I really resonate what farmers go through and so on and having a farm and much respect to people on the land and so on, and having a farm and much respect to people on the land.
Speaker 1:So basically, from that I came out of the army and I wasn't a very good student. As a matter of fact, I was known as a school dunce at Sydney High, which there's no comeback on that. I got 6% in general maths and was accused of cheating, but we'll leave it along those lines, which is pretty true. So I came out of that and then Norse were going on this tour and I sort of didn't have a clue what I was going to do. So I went on the tour, typically those days touring after when I first went to Norse with no one toured and that's why all the Wallabies were playing in club rugby. So we then went on this tour and in the season it was just such a I'd never been out of Australia. And suddenly we're going and touring around and ex-players from Norse, like Peter Carroll, knew England backwards and he'd take us all around Oxford and that sort of thing and meeting people that I still talk to today from playing and catching up with them later. Rugby is a special place where you can go anywhere in the world and meet rugby people and so on.
Speaker 1:And it took me a year to get a job in the travel industry and eventually did selling holiday packages and then then Bob came over and for the first year all we did was rugby league and rugby union. There's different approaches to to getting to us where no one else was doing it and I was reasonably well known and so, and so I used to get all the rugby and Bob would just ring up like Peter Moore at Canterbury and say, bullfrog, you're going on a tour in October, what do you mean? So suddenly we'd have we did every rugby league team country sides leading into the kangaroo tours where we took 780 on the kangaroo. That's another story in itself, I can assure you of that Just learning all types of from walks of life and so on. So I got into that.
Speaker 1:I actually from I couldn't wait for the weekends to finish to go back to work and I'd work Saturday and to a degree I still do that now because what I really, you know, I've been blessed with the success of it and so on, which once again I stress, is all the people, most of the girls, have been with me over 25 years. They all work from home, long before it was fashionable and COVID coming from all around Australia and so on, and we'd go and do all that sort of stuff and the tours. And then it progressed. One of the schools up the North Shore went on a music tour which we knew very little about at the time being, about 35 years ago. We've since peaked at where we send a thousand students overseas on music tours and so on.
Speaker 1:This is rugby and that's my background, but the respect that I have for the music groups we have the marching choirs marching the the Rose Bowl parade, where it's televised live around the world, and things like this. The skills going to Austria to perform in the Musikverein, which is a festival there where our associates would bring in leading clinicians and that's where Mozart used to perform All this sort of stuff that I soon learnt. We're doing dance tours to New York and the discipline and the preparation for these students coming in all day Sunday doing rehearsals because they had a reason to travel, and the improvement and everybody turning up on time to be on the tour and so on, and then it progresses into the preparations. That's what it's all about, but on tour, just how good they were and and how much that improved. We used to do a lot of government schools, private schools there's no boundaries with that side of it and some of the best achievers in the festivals and so on were all the government schools around Australia. Love it.
Speaker 2:Now I find it really cool that one of the first things you said about that tour was the mateship you made, and you said you left friends from 1973. You still got mates you made on that tour. Yes, I think it's something which is a powerful one for all tours and I think it's important that even in today's age, where we don't do a lot of tours, what it does is that shared experience. Right, you're somewhere new, you're having exposure to new environments, new people. You come together a lot closer, don't you A hundred percent as a group, and those sort of friendships and that camaraderie and connection is amplified through the roof. Right, and because it's not something we do regularly, it's just a nice highlight.
Speaker 2:Just remind us that the importance of touring is and the vehicle of rugby is such a good one, because not only are you going playing a sport, you're playing combative, battleground sport, yep. You also mentioned the improvement, and I think that's a lovely little catalyst for going on tour as well. You're living and breathing the sport you love around your mates. It's amazing. The one I also would love your thoughts on around yourself is the leadership aspect, because I've been on tours with young men and women that have come back through them and they're better leaders. Is that something which?
Speaker 1:you've seen, yes, often, often, not only leadership but being part of the setup. My first tour for a leading school in the western suburbs. Things have changed. They went for six weeks. Did I have to catch a sail there? No, with the weeks, no, mate, you'd sit next to it. We had a woman once say I don't want to sit next to the window on the flight because I'm just going to have my hair done. But that's how far back I go, but as far as six weeks with a week skiing, and that's all changed and so on. But what I've like?
Speaker 1:I've seen players go away and one school goes every single year in preparation for next year and they take next year's firsts and all these players come back as first graders because they play all the leading schools in England. Last year there was a halfback from one of the schools whose third choice is whether it go or not, and he just thrived on the tour and loved it and he ended up the back end of the two last three games. He started and then he was picked in the first when he was playing in the Bs. All the way through that's from touring and the whole set up in the first when he was paying in the bees all the way through. That's from touring and the whole setup of the two or so there's just so many.
Speaker 1:The association, galston High, used to host a school from England and they'd be billeted with the families and then they would go back to England and stay with those families and that reciprocal setup and I know people from that school and staff that still have been back over there and to live and have got jobs and associates so that if you go on a trip by yourself you're just another number when you're going in a special interest group with a and your hosts have got the same affinity and the same interests. That's a walk-up start to be able to do it and then to go into people's homes, which sadly has dissipated with COVID and duty of care, and I'd really like to see that come back in again. Do you think that's?
Speaker 2:something that can come back and like that billeting because the billeting on a generation gone by was just fantastic. And for those that don't know, billeting is where you go away on tour and the opposition team generally take your opposite. You come, stay with them for the two, three days that you're playing in preparation of a game with your opposite. And I remember going on those tours and it was just the exposure to living in someone else's house, seeing how they live, then going and playing them on the game. It was just such a connection and I think that's what you're referring to that you make mates like that because you're going through the same experience and just that exposure. Is it likely?
Speaker 1:to come back? I don't think so, sadly. There is a bit of it and so on, but it's nothing like that. But the culture of all that. We had a school, a big boy school, fromon, come down and there were 50 in the group and the billets through. The organizer of the school, inner city school had a row with the headmaster. He said I'm, you can't, they're not going to stay here. Three days before they arrived I rang a friend of mine who's now deceased, barry ross, and he in two days got 50 sets of billets around the Sutherland Shire for three night billets in the game and and that was virtually no one said we won't do it because of the touring and and what he used to do as a teacher at Woolawea High and the trips they did and so on. I can't stress enough that the more of that and when Wool-O-Wear went and so on, and who they hosted and played against, it's just something you can't put a price on.
Speaker 2:It's such a shame that that's not part of the modern generation's experience, that ability, and I understand it's their duty of care that a lot of schools have, which is a really important thing, because when you're organizing a tour I know I've seen last year organize a tour by myself and it was tough work, it was stressful and I didn't probably appreciate some of this duty of care stuff around insurances, compliance, of which there is so much. But where you guys are absolutely awesome is when you're running tours with Gulliver. You guys take care of all of that. You're really taking the stress out of organizing. You've done 4,000 tours, which is a ridiculous amount, but you also know that compliance, you know the insurance, you know all that. There's a goal space, so it really is a one-stop shop.
Speaker 1:I would say to any teacher don't do it. Like you can, you can. You can might save 200 bucks a head or something like that, because we buy cheaper than they ever will. I had a school from Adelaide went on a cricket tour and the teacher did the lot and the games fell through and the billets fell through and they had to come back four days early. Did the parents thanking for saving them a hundred bucks a head?
Speaker 1:No, and, as you say correctly, the duty of care, and you can be liable for it. Today's environment, particularly in the government schools, with the process that staff go through and ticking all the boxes and the questions and so on, we are able to assist with that through. As I said, all the girls have been minimum 25 years and and it's about the process, and then you've got to do a safety issue and some of the questions can be if you're at the hotel and you've got to cross the road, how safe is it? And all this which is over the top. But that's a very daunting thing for parents or teachers mostly to do that. Where we take under right all of that and that's our responsibility and saves you all of that and that can put a lot of teachers off, where not being caught, where you're responsible for stuff yeah, well, I certainly found that myself.
Speaker 2:I was only organizing a tour to new zealand, which was where I'm originally from, and I feel all those little bits of compliance and then and it was just time consuming and I really I want to catch rugby. I don't want to be organising. You know the duty of care, the underwriting stuff. That's other people's job and you guys do that really well. Now, one of the cool places which I know, which I'm really passionate about myself because we're talking about this for our school is Japan in terms of a location.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of people listening to this will love the concept of going to Japan for rugby. It's a really understated place to go on rugby tours, but for me, having experienced a lot of time in Japan myself as a coach, is the cultural experience you get there is unlike anywhere else in the world and it's becoming a place where you guys are actually focusing on as a really whole destination for rugby tourists. Yes, what is it like? And you can't organize no one else can organize a tour Like I'd struggle and lived in Japan to organize a tour, but you're there. What's the benefit? And what are you hearing back from all these tours about? What's so good about touring with school rugby teams to Japan?
Speaker 1:Well, once again, it does come back back to the culture and it's way beyond me with my capabilities. So what we do is we use the services which we always do with people on the ground. That have got all the contacts and some. We're currently negotiating and we'd be doing stuff with a group out of Osaka where they're heavily involved with the development of youth rugby and they've got a massive following and the number of children that play rugby, boys and girls, is incredible. And the fact that these people, what we're negotiating I'm on the Australian Schools Rugby Foundation, I'm probably handling Neville, nobody on it, but I've been there hanging around for 30 years and my dream with Brother Wallace, who's done so much for schools rugby, is to always wanted to get a Japanese team to come down and play in the Australian Championships, which is against the New South Wales 1s, 2s, queensland and so on.
Speaker 1:And we're almost there where the board and hopefully the schools foundation and so on are accepting that we will have two teams from Osaka playing in the Australian Schools Championships next year in June, july. So that's, and then that sort of opens up where they're ambassadors for their country, the amount of trade between both countries, the opportunities for sponsorship promotion. Japan's a massive trading partner and people are trying to get into that area and the best way to speak to local Japanese people in business. Many of them are university-educated and decision-makers, and we're putting a proposal together to fund them because I think it's such a great thing for them to come down and and sport does more than any politicians ever going to achieve. I can assure you that.
Speaker 2:So it's it's. It's a cool one, this japanese cultural thing, and I think it's important that a lot of people that I talk to have never been to Japan and you wouldn't necessarily go to Japan. So to have a tour where you're going with your mates to have that experience, that exposure to something different, is just incredible. And the players like you talked about earlier strive to get on those tours. So they that's the carrot around behaviour. So for a lot of coaches at school level it's a great little carrot to dangle in front of people at the end of the year we're going on this tour. So as long as you're following all the school systems along the way, you get to go on this amazing tour, and I think that's a motivation for a lot of coaches at school level to really have like, at the end of the year we do this or the start of the year we're going to do this. So make sure you're prepped. Have you had experiences where people have come back from those sort?
Speaker 1:of tours, different people, 100%, Well across the board.
Speaker 1:It's pretty hard to be touring of any discipline with your mates and so on, be it the girls or the boys and so on, and I think from purely that the first thing they will say to you is I want to go again and they're sorry that it's over, et cetera.
Speaker 1:So that's always been. There are schools that have got strict rules on that, with behaviour, where the students have been stopped from going because they haven't toed the line with preparation and contributed, or misbehaviour and sunk. And then there's the other side of the coin where they've completely turned themselves around and because of that culture and this might be an under 16 team and the next time the school tours will be in the opens and those students will seriously find that they've suddenly become more aware of what the big world is and what happens if you actually discipline yourself and respect people and so on. And that's certainly learning that where, if you denied something which I don't think there is enough denial for people and most people are terrific young kids but the more discipline and sound implemented, and this is one way of doing it by touring, yeah.
Speaker 2:I think that's a great point. So for me, around this sort of stuff is the biggest driver that I can see in the value of touring is that leadership and that discipline helps create that you act in a way which is in congruence with good behavior as a team, and then to have that carrot of this tour helps with that. The second thing and Japan is massive for this is that cultural experience. You just get something you wouldn't have in everyday life and once you leave school you're in the working world. The opportunities to have this sort of stuff just doesn't come again readily unless you're into the professional space. The other aspect is the fun, I think, when you're touring somewhere new like Japan. It's just such an incredible place for that, isn't it.
Speaker 1:Well, first and foremost, mate, the way I talk to the kids is all about fun and I know lots of things that the kids do, that staff who are responsible for them, but generally you'll find that they all toe the line with the discipline of trainings at two o'clock tomorrow and they'll all turn up on time and all the temptations of life being petrified. As I said, I've seen a couple of girls tours and that where they've misbehaved and been sent home and the teachers aren't really happy because one of them's got to take them back. So that's a very big thing and, as I say, repeating myself, it's the culture of the whole thing.
Speaker 2:Well, just that concept around there's no distractions, Like you're on tour, you're there, it's training time Yep, you get everyone there invested. There's no background stuff, Everyone's there, happy, loving life. And the other thing and I'll refer this back to Japan, but it's with anywhere is the style of play you come up against. Like for those that don't know the Japanese way it's fast, it's quick, it's skillful and if you haven't been there before, you're genuinely surprised how good the rugby is. I've been there for seven years and it blows me away the amount of teams that just get shocked by how good Japanese at a school level rugby is.
Speaker 1:It's for boys and girls. Boys and girls, they don't kick the ball away at all. It's about controlling possession and it's a hundred miles an hour and it's, but it's respect. A mate of mine, who I call a friend, Robbie Doones. He coaches Panasonic and so on. I watch a lot of the games and somebody makes a mistake or something. You never see anybody being admonished by a teammate or something, which is once again accepting something that goes wrong. It's about the team aspect of it all.
Speaker 2:And I think it's important to note too that you have your mates with Robbie, and I know that the last tour you went on, you took the team, went to Panasonic and saw their training ground, watched them train, exposed to that level of rugby. Now, this was an under 16 team you took and you went and got to mix with all these professional players and stay at sight, watch the ground. It's that David Beckham example you're talking about. Yes, Some of the best in the world are currently at Anisonic. Robbie Deans is arguably one of the best coaches in the world. Yes, you just don't get that sort of exposure by staying in your own house.
Speaker 1:Just playing the same teams you play every year gets you the same result, All I do is talk to him about rowing because no one leaves me. All he cops is rugby. So he likes talking to me because that's all we talk about, and how his daughter got a scholarship to a university in the States through a pathway. Once again, another plus for playing sport.
Speaker 2:I love it and it's no surprises, ken, that the relationship side that you have with some very connected people around the world makes your tours just that smooth and easy to do. Like for a lot of people, organizing a tour to Japan would be an absolute nightmare, but you'd say, with the setups you've got, with the connections you've got, it's just unreal. The other thing actually, which which is important too, is Japan over other places. The affordability is growing, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Yes, flight times, nine hours, I think it's about 20. Europe has got very expensive but it's got much to offer in all sports and so on, and in some respects, music will Europe. For ensembles like orchestras and so on, you're better off to go to Europe. But having said that, japan for marching bands and so on, you can do all that. It's pretty important. But for the rugby, I think, for what you pay, the duration, the flights, I think it's probably the best bet. Having said that, as you know, there's schools that go to Samoa, tonga, new Zealand, all that, and boy oh boy, they get a lot out of those, out of the islands, and so on too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, that's another one, those island tours. I guess what you're referring to is just I know this is kind of philosophy of yours as well is that, yeah, the world's your classroom when it comes to tours, isn't it Like? Everywhere you go, whether it's the islands, japan, europe, australia, new Zealand, whatever that looks like, it's an opportunity to learn and grow. Yes, it is a classroom, and just by going to it you're going to get something out of it right, true, and across the board.
Speaker 1:It might be the discipline, but a lot of schools have immersion programs where they're going into Chile and Peru and all these different places and go and work in the field and assist in those. We had a Jesuit school go to India on a cricket tour, which is unique and they played every Jesuit school throughout India and then part of the programs with those schools where they're going into the townships and which is the philosophy of the Jesuit movement where they're able to being the classroom, where they're able to carry that out in front of the people and doing some genuine good.
Speaker 2:I love it's almost like a resilience piece, isn't it 100%? Yeah, I know, like Craig Bellamy with the Melbourne Storm, it's well documented that when people come into his environment, he sends them on a two week work experience where they have to go on the tools just to appreciate what they have got. I think it's the same with tours, isn't it, where you're exposed to something different and then when you come back, you're actually really appreciative of what you've got, generally speaking, the ability to even go on tour.
Speaker 1:Good example, by the way, because I follow the Stormfoot loyally and anyway, that's another story. But I love the way he coaches and the style of football they've got and so on the way they play. Ken, I love the way he coaches and the style of football they've got and the way they play.
Speaker 2:Ken, I love that phrase. The world is your classroom, because at a school level we're all students and even the coaches are students too, and I know personally that what I get out of tours is fascinating for me. That's why I keep touring the world, to my fault, but what sort of experiences. What's the sort of comfort zone stresses that using the world as your classroom on these tours? Fault, but what? What sort of experiences, or what's the sort of comfort zone stresses that you know using the world as your classroom on these tours?
Speaker 1:probably. I have many examples. There was a teacher ahead of music at knox grammar, brian buggy, who just did everything for the kids and he was a great musician in his own right. They used to take 100 kids all in once and they'd get off the plane and they couldn't get billets, so they'd get on the bus after a 14-hour flight and go down to Irvine and sleep on the floor of the gymnasium. And Brian's answer to that was to some of the parents and so on, whether you want your kids to be musicians. Well, guess what. You're a musician. This is what, excuse me, you're. Well, guess what? This? You're a musician. This is what, excuse me, you're likely to expect when you're on the road. And so, just excuse me.
Speaker 1:We did used to do netball tournaments in Hawaii, which is a fun thing. We had peaked at 1800 kids on the island or and adults in Kauai. But they play, plant the grass underneath the magnificent volcano there at Kapiolani Park. We'd mark the sidelines and everything, and then some of the people would complain oh, we plant astroturf back home. And here we were.
Speaker 1:And Ian Sargent, who was MC of CEREMON. He said well, when I played for Australia in the West Indies, we played in tarmac on the car park, so you guys can cop this, but I think talented players going through the system in Japan, where it's actually the opportunity to get scholarships through the universities and so on. It's interesting that Japan has a great affinity with Tongans and the first person outside of Japan to play for them was actually a Tongan player and he came and talked to the Tongan group that we did last time and it highly respected in Japan and so on. So there's opportunities for aspirations too. You've got your rowing into the East Coast, to America, and lots of scholarships, but there are probably Japan's the best opportunity with that side of it to be able to get tuition in the university through their rugby prowess.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, I haven't seen a first hand being a coach at clubs there, like when young players come through teams come through on tour, and if someone stood out we would generally say, oh who's that guy, and we'd give you a note and we'd always be there available. And the amount of guys that did come back, particularly Pacific Island players, was really awesome. So it's opening up the world, not just for the experience, but it's a foot in the door for a lot of people too. When you get that little bit of exposure as a young person going and seeing it's done a different way, it gives that little spark sometimes, doesn't it? 100%, actually, I kind of like that and opens up the world.
Speaker 1:So as a teacher, as a coach, you're actually opening up someone's mind, aren't you, in terms of taking them somewhere where you can see a different way of doing things, and for some that's going to be a life-changing moment, right 100%, particularly very hard to go into foreign countries without any introduction, particularly in Japan, where to get through the front door of corporations, whereas if you demonstrate rugby, prowess or football or any of the other sports, there's a fairly good chance that you at least get a decent hearing, which, if you're just trying yourself, pretty much impossible. So when people are on the lookout, say with the universities and so on, they'll always want to look at people and there are scholarships through the universities, through that basis.
Speaker 2:I think it's awesome, ken and I just I think it's important to just remember that this is a great time to do it, like when you're a student, when you're at school, you have no other cares, do you Like? As soon as you finish school, you've got work, you've got families, potentially you've got mortgages, all that stuff. And just as a personal example, I remember when I was a player at Super 12, as a young man 21, used to go across with no baggage, but a lot of the guys that were on that tour for a month really struggled because they had mortgages at home, family and kids at home and life was taken over and the tour was harder. But when you're young, it's the time to do it right. This is the time in life where you want to spark opportunity, all these things, because there's no other stresses in life.
Speaker 1:I can endorse that 100%. In the early days we'd do 30 to 40 club tours in October. Now it's diminished to a lot less way less because of all the things that you've alluded to with mortgages and kids, but it's the fact that it is that way. They were so keen to travel. I used to have country teams pay us at the airport with cash out of a sugar bag as I'm doing the checking, you know and they finally got the money together and the trust and things which would never happen today. But that's the life without mobile phones and all that when things were a lot easier.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love it. Wow, it's so cool too, how, like, whatever school you're at, wherever you're going, it's so cool too, how, whatever school you're at, wherever you're going, the cool things that happen. And I love it how, particularly you guys, your itineraries change based on whatever that school needs. We're just talking for our school. We've got a different couple of grades going, very different tours, aren't they? You really manufacture stuff.
Speaker 1:Defence is organising Sydney High. The head of rugby, the coach. There was Tony Hannan who was just a wonderful man and a great coach and he used to take the tours away and he was a history teacher and they'd go to France and he'd do all the battlefields, the respect, and he'd take the Villas Bretonneux with a sign remember the Australians and the Menin Gate for the ceremony which is every day of the year and they'd be walking through Villers-Bretonneux. One time there and lot of last, when Sydney High had the elite swords and a gentleman came up to them and French guy, and said, are you from Australia? And he invited them all around to his house where he had a museum and he put on a spread for them, impromptu spread, and then gave all the mementos, like bullets from the First World War and all this, and he talked about the classroom and so on, but but for the fact that they're on a rugby tour and Tony used to value out everything and and all the different aspects of the tour, what have you?
Speaker 1:been valuing. Oh well, like the history and going to the battlefields, doing all that sort of stuff and some, particularly if you're doing and of course, if you're going and you're doing a language, say French, and that so and history, well, you're getting all those benefits out of it. So it's the touring speaking to people, if you're doing French, where they speak in a foreign language. We used to do tours where they'd be based there and they'd let them loose into these country towns and less people. You spoke to them in French, no one wanted to know you. So that was a good learning curve, getting the classroom out into the middle of it all.
Speaker 2:I do love it how. That's an important thing to know Tobe, with some of these tours You've actually got great people on the ground. I know you Japanese people do that value add because China, as a coach that doesn't know Japan, you would struggle to get around Japan, not annoying. So the people you have on the ground come with a tour well-experienced in tours no rugby, no tours in general and all the stuff which can happen. It's looked after.
Speaker 1:Yes it is, and it's a learning curve that never ends. I remember the Golden Oldies were in Sydney in about 1980 and I went with Ross Tannick from he was vice president of the Everett Steamship Company, the only Caucasian on the Japan Rugby Union board and we went to see Mitsubishi about bringing a team in the next minute. As we went up, floor after floor, more and more people were bowing and all that we ended up in the president of Mitsubishi's office and all he wanted to do was talk about rugby and everything and they brought a team down. But they're all the contacts through the sport and so on that you get to meet people like that.
Speaker 2:I love that phrase too, ken the learning curve that never ends, and I think that's a good one for tours in general and the cultural piece that it gives you. There's just every tour you get value out of. You really grow people, you grow your leadership, resilience, you have fun, you experience different things, you do something which you'll probably high chance not do again in your life, and you're learning the whole time.
Speaker 1:Learning's important and, as I say, I've been doing this for a while you never stop learning. 42 years, ken, you've been. I mean you've been I was young before that, anyway before that. But one thing that certainly when I'm involved, it's not perfectly organised, but we have a wonderful team. But things are never perfect.
Speaker 1:But one thing we've always done we've used that as a positive so that something goes wrong. Like we had a lot of schools in London with the bombing of the government, buses there and so on. I was there but we're in touch with every one of those schools I think there was nine of them on cricket tours and we turned that into a positive. We've had water main burst in the Rugby World Cup at 2 am. Turn up and get it sorted and get them into another hotel and up to a bus and then within two hours of it happening at 2am, Most amusing part was I was still there at nine o'clock and there's water pouring down the stairs and out in the street and there's people coming in and checking in and going up the stairs to stay. I don't know what they were expecting when they got upstairs, but always we've done that. As I say, we're not perfect, but we do address it and the experience and the team, which is not me, but all the girls, they're fantastic with that side of it.
Speaker 2:It's actually awesome that these things some of those hard times which will inevitably come on tours, because that's the nature of it, but a lot of these things are actually creating the real memories which last. It's not always what happens on tour. It's how you react and learn to react when you've got good people like yourselves in behind the scenes, making sure the reaction is going to be such that it's going to be a great memory. I think that's the whole thing of tours as well, isn't it? It's just creating the amazing memories for life that you can build on as you go through life Yep, they're amazing memories for life, right, that you can build on as you go through life, yep, and failure, as well as success, is the two sides of the coin, and they're both very important in the learning curve.
Speaker 2:What would you say to coaches? Ken, there'll be a number that are listening to this that are going inspired to do a tour. What would you say would be like? How would you sell it to them? What would you say why tour? If you had to sum it up with all the things we've talked about, we've got a coach in England that coaches a school team that wants to give them this experience. What is it about?
Speaker 1:it that you would say this is why. Well, first and foremost, if you're a coach, it means you're pretty serious about your knowledge and giving up your time, and it's not an easy job at any level. And then the icing on the cake is to take your young players, boys or girls, and go on a tour and experience that with them. Whether you've been before, we've got teachers who've never been on a rugby tour and they're coaching. And then they're sort of talking to other coaches and probably in the past they've stayed with coaches of teams in their homes and they talk about the different setups and what the hell they play and all that sort of stuff, watching the evolution of sending team.
Speaker 1:We used to do a lot to argentina, but hugo porter used to box kick for 95 of the game and now the transition, how they just run the ball and they're so much better and don't kick it away and so on. So everything's changing all the time. I think the standard has improved so much from we won in 75 for Norse and 9-3 exciting game, three penalties to one, watching Norse play and get beaten by East last year and Warringah this year and what they've achieved. The game is just so much better and with With the skill levels, the fitness level, dietary, just the whole attitude, it's far more professional.
Speaker 2:I love it. It's certainly evolved from 1975 to now. You guys have been sort of leading the way on this, and I think it's important to note that it is actually easier than you think to tour these days, isn't it Technology? With crews like you that are so experienced, going to places like Japan is actually not as big a thing as it potentially was a long time ago.
Speaker 1:No, as long as you utilise the people that are responsible for the tour, putting it together, and they're with you, we always put a tour guide on with them. So the company that we work with depending what it is, but if it's rugby, it's a rugby specialist. We took 2000 to Japan for the last World Cup there and for me it was a really good learning curve as well. We're always up and back a fair bit with all those groups going and, as I say, it never stops learning, but it's the same for any coaches or students together there as a team. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, ken, just to speak on my own experience on tours with younger school-aged crew, we took an under-14 team away on tour to New Zealand and we played. We wanted to play three games in a row because we wanted them to have that resilience piece, which isn't always optimal rugby, but we wanted that. So the itinerary we made was around that and I remember because we play three really good Auckland rugby teams in New Zealand who are a proud rugby country and I remember the first game we played and the experience our boys had. We put up the hands and said who's scared? And most of the team fair play to them put up the hands and said they were a little bit scared and they played with our Maldis, weren't they? If it's Auckland, they're up against big boys a lot bigger than them. We're not a big team, but they had that experience. And then afterwards it was lovely we had an aftermatch, which is something in itself, which touring does a lot of the aftermatches and teams celebrate that and they did a really good job. You got to know the other person well and you realize, oh, they're not what I said they were, they're actually good people and our boys kept. We've got some lovely photos of all around the aftermatch. There's boys intermingling. And then the next day was a different game, different school, the same premise, except the boys were a little bit less worried. It's experience. And then by the last game we played the biggest team out of all and I remember talking to put up your hand if you're scared, man. And these under-14 girls, no one put up their hand. Who's excited? Everyone put up. And that was just in three days of that exposure to something different, that intermingling, that coming together and realizing whatever perceptions you had of the opposition. When you actually make heart, then you have a bite to eat and intermingle what it does to your own.
Speaker 2:Rugby is phenomenal and I had a father come to me, one of the guys that actually played for the D team. He came away with sort of the A squad and he wasn't as good at play, but the amount he improved and the confidence he got as a person. His dad came to me after the tournament and said whatever you've done on that tour, thank you. And I just thought it was a marvelous example of just being. He came in and was surrounded by people that were focused and he became that and he went and played. Admittedly, he still played for the C team, but he was the best player and he scored more tries than ever all season and he loved his rugby, yeah, and the guys loved him, and I just think that's what touring does, doesn't it? It makes people better versions of themselves.
Speaker 1:Yeah, often you'll find that through the ages it's the A team goes away. And then it's the first One of Sydney school in Japan. They took the team away and it was made up of the Cs and Ds yes, and they went away and there's kids I didn't know they could play like that and they've been elevated and so on, but kids just think, oh, we're not good enough to go on a tour. I think there should be more of that. I think so Get underage, take the C's and D's and so on.
Speaker 2:I love it, ken, and I think it's really important that, whatever grade you're coaching, anyone can go away on tour and have a fantastic experience, and that's massive. So I guess you know a testament to myself I've been in professional rugby for 25 years and gone on a lot of tours, and those are the times that I remember most Not the rugby, but the interactions, the mateship, the learning, the exposure to different environments, the leadership you pick up. It's just so wonderful and I can see why you have dedicated your lifetime to this aspect, lower of love. And why do you keep going, ken? What keeps you rolling? At almost 80 years old, you're still hands on. You love it. You're promoting young men and women to tour as much as possible.
Speaker 1:What keeps driving you? Just purely the enjoyment. Obviously, that's what they get out of it, but it's just seeing the kids being excited at the airport and we do every check-in and make sure everything goes right from when they're at the airport and so on. But just seeing the kids how excited they are, I really enjoy that. And then the touring and it goes well. And if something's not perfect which can happen and has happened how it's dealt with and so on, and so I think all of that you've got things get in the way. Rugby World Cup Japan. We had a cyclone in the middle of it and we had, as I said, 2000 people there. How that was dealt with by the local people and people out of their comfort zone. Some couldn't handle it and most did.
Speaker 2:The comfort zone for sure. Oh yes, love it, love it. And how long do you reckon you've got left? What?
Speaker 1:Well, you keep telling me I'm 80 next year.
Speaker 2:So you tell me, I'll drop it Ken. No, I couldn't.
Speaker 1:Straight away, Mate, I don't have any ego. I really don't. I just I'm very blessed with my family and seven grandchildren. Some of them are the girls, elite sports people, and they're into everything and I'm just the joy of seeing them playing sport and so on and watching other kids. I really love the rowing never rowed in my life, but it's the ultimate team sport and my granddaughters are rowing and so on. My brother went to three Olympics in rowing, won a silver medal in the eights in Mexico, so there's a legacy there. And now he's three grandsons. Two of them are playing for Australia in the underage divisions, Liam and Angus, and all of that sort of stuff is.
Speaker 1:I don't know what I'd do without sport and the combination of travel. I keep working, Because that's not work, and the big thing, that's the joy for me, is the camaraderie of the office. As I said, everyone now works from home but we're very close with each other and the biggest demise in everything is divisiveness and pretty much all of one thing I've really strived is just let everybody do their own thing. We have a system but it's always been helping each other and that's doesn't matter what walk of life, from running a country to a business to a family, anything. It's about the cohesion of working together. Coming back to rowing, that's what I love about it.
Speaker 2:It's the ultimate sport. King Grover, what a pleasure it has been today. And I can see why, with your experience, you love the sport and the game itself and the touring side. I can see why when people tour with you, they don't only get a great tour, but they get all this experience, all this extra stuff around. And one thing we didn't mention was not only is it the experience, but it's all the little things that you can offer from 42 years in the industry, the little things from get the gear you need, the personalized bags. I just think what you guys do is amazing for the sport and it's the wonderful thing for the sport. So you keep going and keep doing what you're doing.
Speaker 2:If I could now just I'd like to just sum up our conversation with cover my three of my key takeaways that I've got from here, and I think it's just good to reinforce some of these things. So, ken Grover, what I took away number one was when you're touring, it's exposure to new cultures actually changes you as a person and as a group and as a whole dynamic, and I think that's really important into four ways. The leadership aspect we talked about you grow as leaders because you're exposed to different things. You get cultural experience when you go to different places. You can't help but pick up the differences that other people operate in. You have fun memories of mateships coming through with camaraderie, through shared experience, and you have exposure to different ways of playing the game, so that exposure to those things go wonders for both teams and individuals to grow as people.
Speaker 2:Number two this phrase that the world is your classroom, exposure to new ways, is important for students and that's what we're doing this for. We're taking school-age children and young people away to grow as people. They are students by nature, so tours open up the world. We create the world as their classroom, rather than those small little boxes of four walls they have at school, and I think it's life-changing the things that we don't even know, some of the things we're just going to open up for them. I think that's really special for a coach and a teacher and a tour organizer to know.
Speaker 2:And number three, I love this phrase that you said that tours are learning curves that never end and under 42 years in the industry, you of all people would know this best. And these things are actually a lot of the memories, the learnings you have on these tours not always the stuff that went smoothly, but some of the stuff that didn't go smoothly is what you really remember, Not necessarily what happened, but how you respond.
Speaker 1:It is and the most thing that enlightens me and I really enjoy is touring's not for people that are well off. I've seen a lot of schools from lower socioeconomic areas where they've got together with a three-year lead-in and students have got raffle tickets, fundraising, putting their time together. It starts that bond before they go and that's all. Part of the touring is the excitement of planning everything and bringing kids together with a plan. Where there's a will, there is a way and they really appreciate what they've achieved by planning it together.
Speaker 2:I love it. Anticipation plan execution achievement Ken Grover. Thank you for your time today. I liked it. Anticipation plan execution achievement Ken Grover. Thank you for your time today. I liked it.
Speaker 1:You show a lot of promise.
Speaker 2:Get that bit in there, that's gone.