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Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Talent doesn't always win: Building culture in the Fijian Drua with Glen Jackson
Glenn Jackson's remarkable rugby journey defies conventional paths. After an impressive playing career with Bay of Plenty, the Chiefs, and Saracens (where he earned Premiership Players Player of the Year), he pivoted to become a professional referee, officiating 32 Test matches before transitioning to coaching. Now head coach of the Fijian Drua, Jackson occupies a rare position of having played, refereed, and coached at elite levels.
What makes Jackson's perspective so valuable is his deep understanding of the delicate balance between traditional Fijian culture and professional rugby demands. "There's a huge change or element of speed around traditional culture and professional culture in Fiji," he explains. The Drua, comprised entirely of Fijian players, maintains strong connections to traditional practices like prayer, family bonds, and kava ceremonies while navigating the structured requirements of Super Rugby competition.
Jackson's coaching philosophy centers on creating an environment where players can reach their full potential. His initial approach focused on each player becoming "a leader of themselves" before attempting to lead others. This proved especially important given the unique pressures Fijian players face – many young athletes come from villages, have limited travel experience, and suddenly find themselves on billboards across the country.
The conversation reveals fascinating insights about team building across cultural contexts. Jackson organized his team culture around TIME: Togetherness, Investment, Memories, and Enthusiasm. The "memories" component highlights that beyond results, rugby creates lasting bonds. His experience as a referee also gives him unique perspective on coach-referee relationships, advocating for mutual understanding rather than antagonism.
What shines through most clearly is Jackson's genuine care for his players' development. "If you truly want to help someone and they can feel that, that's where the real power is," he shares. As the Fijian Drua continues evolving in Super Rugby, his approach offers valuable lessons for coaches at all levels about balancing performance expectations with cultural authenticity. Have you considered how cultural understanding impacts your approach to leadership?
If you can SUBSCRIBE, RATE, and SHARE the show and series, you would be doing your bit to grow this show. Very appreciated. Ben
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If you can't if you can't lead yourself, it's it's hard to lead others. They understand talent doesn't always win, right? So I understand hard work beats talent. And uh when you've got forty guys that we do are unbelievably talented. At some stage something's got to change a little bit. That when I was refereeing and you know, there'd be a first penalty you'd go, oh, here we go. And you could already see uh obviously this coach is bloody talent that I'm a useless freaking madlet. So yeah. Now to coach, it's it's uh it's hard not to it's not a fee gym way to to really open up around how they feel. I don't think I've heard any of our guys ever say no, you know. So it's how do you how do you you know how do you ask how do you understand how you're feeling and is everything good to say no no I need a bit of help here? That's pretty hard.
SPEAKER_01:It's glessed, it's Glenn Jackson, and Glenn is having a remarkable rugby journey. He played as a first five for Bayer Plenty and the Chiefs in New Zealand before heading to Saracens in the UK to play 130 games, including Premiership Players Player of the Year in 2007, which is the very best award you can receive, I reckon. When he retired in 2010, he rocketed through the professional refing ranks, working his way up to the very elite level, officiating over 100 first class games, including 32 Test matches. In 2015, he finished his pre-professional refereeing and dove into pro coaching, where there isn't many coaches that can say they've played, coached, and refed at the very highest level. He is currently head coach of the Fijian Dura and Super Rugby, and with the way they play, this passionate entertaining, they are everybody's second favourite team after their own. Glenn Jackson, welcome to the Coaching Culture podcast.
SPEAKER_00:Thanks, Ben. Uh great to be here, mate. Uh big fan of your um your podcast. I you learn a lot from other coaches, and I think it's the key to rugby is listening to what other people have to say about their environments, and uh mate, it's it's a it's a great way to learn from uh from those people.
SPEAKER_01:Cheers, Jacko, that's appreciated. And it are you're right just to to segue into this because when you're listening to people like yourself and other coaches that have actually gone through all these stresses and strains and the learnings and the goods and the bad learning, it's it's such relevant stuff, I reckon, because there's nothing better than hearing from others that have gone through it, not just the theory, but what they're actually going through all the time, right? Is that what you get from it?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, 100%, mate. I like yeah, I'll give it another yellow. I think rugby unity with Eddie Jones and you and you, the two that I listened to, and it's two different sides. I think you know that they really talk about the the game of rugby and and you talk about what's uh behind the scenes of rugby and how how you get the best out of out of people. And it's um like I said, it's it's an amazing to listen to what how the game of rugby's changed and around how open people are. And I think it's uh not good if you're in professional, it's good if you're under sixes. It doesn't matter what you what grade you are, but you get a lot of lot of people opening up now about how the environment runs and how their team runs and and um you know it's only good for the game. And you're right.
SPEAKER_01:Like I've been so impressed about all the people that have come on are just so open. And we're talking like everybody on the show is professional rugby coach and they're just sharing everything. Goods, bads. I think it's incredible. It's a testament to the game, do you reckon?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well look, I think we struggle as a game to to to understand. Well, no, no, I think that's opposite you know, the game is sometimes struggling. I think at the moment we we're watching test rugby and it's unreal. I think Super Rugby I thought last year was really, really good. But yeah, we've certainly got a game of three sort of divisions at the moment. And the more people can share about and talk about it and make it a uh product that people want to listen to and watch, and it's the better for all of us. So I think yeah, we we need to all understand that we need to make the game um at attractive to everyone in this woman's world cup's been great at the moment. But I you know, I think like those tests in the weekend were yeah, teams are plant unreal and it's just it's awesome to to watch and and be part of.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's yeah, it it is a joy, mate, and and being able to do this and speak to great people like yourself, mate, is is a real pleasure. And I think what I love out of it, mate, just to keep going down this track is that there's coaches out there listening in small towns and and little places. I think of the small town coach in Texas for some reason, with no access to anybody, and he gets to hear yourself and other great coaches just talk about their journey. I think that's just shows the global nature of this game. Um, and it's a really cool thing to be part of.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it is, and I hope it doesn't stop. I think it's uh, you know, it's like I said, it's so important for the grace of the game. You're fighting airtime, you're fighting everything with so many other sports and so many other things, you know. So we've got to we've got to put our foot forward to try and stay acclaim in what people will do with their time.
SPEAKER_01:Stake acclaim, I love it, mate. Right, Jacko. I'll start, mate, with the question we start with is how do you define culture?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's it's an interesting one because I I love the answers that everyone gives on here. I I think it's just uh creating an environment that people can grow. You've got to understand your athletes and and their strengths and then try and help them reach their full potential. The hard thing around culture is is as I said, listening to uh other podcasts like Eddie's uh rugby unity, it's you've got to win as well. Like you've got to have results. It's it's easy to say that an environment wasn't wasn't where it was up to because results didn't go that well. And I've been in plenty of teams where we've had great culture and you know we didn't quite get the wins that probably you hoped. I I would definitely say last year in the drawer that would be the case. I think we got better culture than in anyone around. But uh, when you don't quite get wins like we didn't, then you're always challenging it, is your culture as good as it should be? And so that's that's the beauty of culture, is uh and the hard work of coaching is trying to trying to get that balance of having an environment that people grow to their full potential, but also at the end of the day you've got to get the wins as well.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And well, when you're talking about these results, do you like obviously not everyone can win every game, right? Like, how do you do you have any sort of realistic ways of defining what a good result would would look like for you guys?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's a great question because you know, this is essentially us. We've had three years. Like our first year we were in in Lenox head in Australia and Coven, but you may as well put a line through that. So for three years and making quarterfinals on a competition that probably didn't really stack up to being making quarterfinals. Last year was our first year that, you know, ideally quarterfinals would have been good, but they went to, as you know, to six. And so quarterfinals for us would have been success. And then we lose two games out of the first three on the on the hooter, and then you're chasing, you know. So that really challenges your culture and and your athletes. But as I said, I think as long as we can create an environment that uh they're understanding their strengths and then can reach their full potential, then I think you're going the right way. And and um, yeah, I think some things we tried to do, well I tried to do last year with um each player being a leader of themselves instead of actually having a full leadership group because I didn't really believe we had in three years the right leaders to to take our team forward. Now that was a probably a mistake from me, but it was something I was willing to challenge. Because I think if you can't if you can't lead yourself, it's it's hard to lead others. And I didn't want to put the pressure on a leadership group to try and lead our team. That's what we're here for. And um I learned from that. I think this year we've got some much uh some great leaders, and so we'll we'll go back to having a bit of a leadership group. But again, I I thought having the culture of leading yourself is what you can do to get better results. So yeah, long-winded answer. But uh, you know, we we it wasn't a pass mark last year. So for us is is is probably more wins than losses, is where we need to be. And as you know, mate, Fiji's full noise rugby. So you go from having a quarterfinal to not, um again, that's results, and that's it's where you're you're based on and and and that's where the pressure comes on players and and staff. Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_01:Mate, now just to dive into that a little bit, the culture of leading yourself is it at a culture fit for a team is awesome, each player being the leader of themselves. What sort of specific things did you do to help individuals grow their leadership?
SPEAKER_00:Again, uh three years in into uh super rugby is tough. You look at some teams that have been there for 20 years, we're we're coming into our 30th year, and not many teams make playoff footy. So our culture or Fiji culture is unreal. You know, you can't you can't understand the the importance of religion, faith, um and and that that that creates the culture. I obviously listened to Mupps on you recently, and you know, he he he knows all about it. We know about it. I've been lucky enough to be with the national team for five years, and and so I know I know the Fijian culture is strong. That uh traditional culture into professional culture is is a balance, it's a fine balance of of understanding that now you you're a professional rugby player. But uh again, that yeah, a lot of these guys have come straight from a COVID schooling to not you know missing important years of school to then professional rugby and and being on billboards around Fiji. So just needed to make sure they could, you know, like I said, lead themselves before trying to lead a whole rugby team. Frank Lamarty for me is one of our genuine leaders. We lost him after three weeks, so we sort of lost our captain, which you know then makes it leave and a little bit harder. So we we were trying to put a lot of time into it. I I broke the teams into a time sort of a framework, which was togetherness, investment, memories, and enthusiasm, and they had to try and look after all those four pits of what I what I see as important of rugby. And and yeah, but again, I I'll put it down, the results were in our way, but I I thought uh yeah, we had a we had a great, great uh bunch of human beings that loved playing footy, loved the way they played, and and so that was a success. That that side of things has always been a success. It's just now trying to push that into a professional environment of of results.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. What were those four things again, Jacko? Togetherness was the first one.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, togetherness, I guess we just we just um that was a pretty easy one, but I I yeah, we broke the team into four groups. One was togetherness, one was investment, so your investment of being your time when you're here. I wanted memories. Memories for me is all about rugby, so you know, what do we do off the field? How do you how do you create uh memories when you're traveling, you know, and then and then being enthusiastic. So that was our time. It was a time of third year into apprenticeship, essentially. You know, now's our time to step up. And like I said, uh you know, looking back first year head coach, yeah, there's certainly some things that I would do again, and one of them would be to form, you know, a an actual leadership group instead of maybe we went too quickly into the individual sort of leader. But yeah, I still think, you know, looking at this year, we've we've brought in some good leaders and that can help um some of the stuff we did last year into this year.
SPEAKER_01:I love it, mate. I love that phrase, how to create memories. I think it's a a really nice perspective to always come back to is the memories you're making right now, what are they? It's powerful, right?
SPEAKER_00:Oh mate, you you and you, myself, Tito, all those boys that we did it for a re you did it because you got paid eventually, but it was that because you got good mates and and you know, you sit down having a beer and you talk about the great times. You know, not often you talk about the game footy, you know, it's about the memories that you had when you're doing that. And I want to make sure our boys do the same. There's a lot of pressure on our young men in in Fiji to perform. I'd hate for them to finish, you know, we're losing six of our good players to to France this year. Maybe the pressure was too much here and and it's easier to go to France and get away from the things. With the understanding of pressure, you just also want to have a make sure you're creating some good memories out out of um what how you finish your your rugby your time with the game.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Is that a real thing in Fiji? That's part of that environment where it's actually to a lot of people that don't know Fiji and rugby, it is all in. Like if you're playing for the drawer, you are the highest profile person in the country. Is it that and the pressure on young young athletes coming through is immense, right? Massively.
SPEAKER_00:And we're and we're we're trying to do a lot of work with that, but that that's that's that's difficult in any situation. But it's uh you know, if you look at the All Blacks now, it's the pressure we we would probably reasonably similar with the amount of pressure. Social media is massive over here, not performing or, you know, probably not seen as what they should be doing on and off the field, then the pressures come on. And and uh again, these are young men who are who have missed a lot of schooling through through that COVID period. So we're we're we're just making sure everyone's in a pretty I go back to it into environment that they can get their full potential and it's a safe one that they feel comfortable coming to work and enjoying it. It's fascinating, man.
SPEAKER_01:It's absolutely fascinating. I think it's important just to dive a little bit into that one we talked about and that balance between the demands of professional rugby and actually the cultural piece. Because Fiji and the culture is fantastic. Would you be able to just sort of where where does it conflict like the natural style with the demands of a structured professional system? What's the what's the dynamic there like?
SPEAKER_00:Um well if it's very family oriented uh faith, um, great sessions around a car bowl, big talinar, talking sessions. You get all that, which is fantastic and you want that, into a very quick do-it-now process of of winning rugby. How do you get a week right? How do you then take away distractions of the family and and the carver bowl? You know, there's a huge change or element of or speed around traditional culture and professional culture in in Fiji. And I I think uh our boys, you you go overseas and there's Fijians everywhere. And it's the great thing about it. Like, well, I'm not we don't want to turn that away because I think the Drew is the f uh best selling Super Abu juicy by 40% the last three years. Is that right? It's it's a it's really important that we understand this is why people like the Drewer and this is why you're here. So we I don't you never ever want to get away from from the traditional culture, but the speed of professional culture means that there isn't that time, especially in Super Arabia. It's a it's a quick sp quick dash, it's a sprint. You know, it's not like when we played in the UK, you could sort of get limp limp to Christmas and then you you change your sort of tactics and you you can come alright, you know. This is this is done and dusted in real quick time. So it's just making sure the boys understand that, you know. I don't like I said, we don't want to go away from from what makes them unbelievably great human beings, but you know, how do you then make them superstar all the time in rugby, not just some some of the times?
SPEAKER_01:You wouldn't, do you when you say you take away distractions, do you do you actually take away or do you just or do you almost dive into them a little bit more like double down on how good the family is, how good the f strong the the faith is, how important the traditions are. Do you sort of acknowledge that and put it front of mind as opposed to taking away?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you never take away what what what is important to my uh last year was my first year that he came. We went up to Kindavu on a boat, uh, you know, got to this magic island, no power. We had a week up there, everyone's saying we're crazy, it was cyclone season, you know, it was unreal. It was so good to to to um you know, the people of Kindavu looked after us extremely well and to bring the juror, which they already see on a little TV that they try and have to run up the top of the hill to get a reception, you know, to bring the boys there. We've got about eight guys, I think nine guys from Kandavu, two of them endeavor being there, you know. So it was like that that's important. It's important to connect with um to to the the the country. Um it's important to understand uh what it means to be for the drawer, but I then I like I said I I I feel sorry at times when things don't quite quite go right and they expect us to win, which is good. That's why, like I said, if you you're not selling your jerseys or you're not watched, then there's something wrong as well. So it's it's just that balance of getting that right.
SPEAKER_01:H how do you how do you get on with that sort of you know underlying pressure to to win games of rugby? How does it affect you as a coach? You know, does it weigh on you?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, of course it does. I mean, you know, like um you're here to win. I mean, uh there's no doubt, but you I think Eddie's Eddie said it on a great thing. If you if you win a premiership in your any coaching career, you're doing a great job, you know. He talked about uh people that go from one great environment Scott as a good example, you know, he wins everything under the crusaders thing and you go to a different environment. So winning winning is continually the pressure of coaching and um and uh that weighs on us, but you can't allow that to show in in the tank. And um we've got a we've got a great bunch of men that every single day they turn up, they'll greet and say hello. We have a lot to our pre-session into leading into our meetings, and it's it's really important. Sing every day. Um, you know, we've got a great facility here, we're very lucky with that. The boys love being here, well looked after, fed well, yeah. So all that is great, but uh, you know, the pressure of winning is is there, and and that's geez, I wouldn't be in this game still if I didn't understand that.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, that's right. And so I think it's important too that you uh understand some of those things you talked about, like the for prayer, this the the need for singing. Because if you didn't understand that and you pulled back on that sort of stuff, it wouldn't go down well, will it, if you take away some of those strongly etched traditions for a culture like the Fijians.
SPEAKER_00:No, no way. And and you know, I don't know if people know, but uh Drew is a hundred percent Fijian. First year we were allowed, I think, uh one or two foreigners if we didn't have a spot. So we've been a completely and full, utter Fijian team. We're only allowed to have Fijians in our team, which is fantastic. So you'd never take away the the traditional culture of Fiji and what it's about to be Fijian. We have myself, Tim Sampson, Chris Gibbs and Greg Fleming with the rest of our management is all Fijian. And so if we would never come in here and ever think that this is not the way forward, then never ever. It's part it's part of the the culture, as I said. It's just now getting that that professional and traditional culture and that balance right.
SPEAKER_01:Uh have you changed on your balance? You've been on Fiji a while now. Uh has that changed from when you first came in with maybe what you thought at the start to where that's evolved to?
SPEAKER_00:No, I I was lucky uh Vern when Vern Cotter coached Fiji, uh he brought me in as assistant coach. This is before the Drawer. So I've but sort of been with the national team before the Drewer. And then obviously going to the World Cup with Simon Rowling and understanding and taking into us to quarterfinal, nearly, nearly winning a quarterfinal. You sort of understood how he did it and and the how how the culture aspect doesn't really change. Yeah. The one thing we had in that national team is we had some really strong leaders who played overseas. And uh, you know, that's where we're starting to bring Fijians back from from overseas for that exact reason. That I think I'm never ever going to stop one of our boys going overseas. I think it's important when they decide it's time to go, that they go. But the door will always be open to bring Fijians back. And um, I'm certainly in a place that you you learn as you and I have, where you know, you learn a lot more when you go overseas than you do just buried in your own country. And at times you go and you think you can change it, but uh you realise that that's that's the way things are run, and what you can bring back from overseas and any sort of organization into back into the drawer is going to be fantastic for everyone.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I I think it's such a good thing. And the more you move around, the more you get exposed to that different ways of thinking and doing, and it's wonderful for people. But you talked about leadership, mate, and you talked about Frank earlier. What is it about these key players coming back? What do they do to a culture and environment of a team when you get such good athletes and leaders back into the mix? What is it that they bring to your environment? How do you nurture that?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, look, Frank has done uh you know, Rebels, uh Northampton, you know, so he's he's done a bit of travelling. Um for me, Frank leads for what he is. He is unbelievable, you know, he's he's just had a shoulder um rehab, so that's why he was out for the whole year, but he just ran a 440 um you know Broncos. So that he he shows what it means to be fit and 100% on. Great, great man, pulls teams together. Manassa Mattali, we're bringing him across, you know, so he's crusader in chief and he's super excited to come back home. Isaac Fine's coming from the Western 4, so you know, another guy that's played for Australia but proud Fijian that wants to come home. Um we're bringing Timo, who's been unbelievable played uh count uh Northland, North Harbour uh Northampton just in the finals, you know. So he's coming back and will be a great leader. So we're we're bringing some good guys back in key positions too, and and we all know you know when you get the spine of your team pretty strong that um the rest of the boys will follow. And there were guys that were possibly going to go overseas that we we did well to keep. So I think the balance this year would be the first year I reckon we've generally got uh good leadership. Penny Ravai's been unbelievable for us around what he brought back from the Reds from overseas as well. So these are genuine uh guys are so proud to come back and play for the Drewer, but uh have watched from afar, now they want to be involved, you know. So it's great.
SPEAKER_01:How do you like with some of those players that uh have been developed overseas and they're coming back, how do you bridge those sort of those different pathways they've had into one unified culture, which is the Drewer?
SPEAKER_00:Again, mate, that's the that's the it's it really isn't easy, but uh, you know, I don't want to over stake Fijian just slipping back into Fiji culture is awesome. What what these guys will bring is uh um that everyone talks about the most talented team, they understand talent doesn't always win, right? So they understand hard work beats talent, and uh when you got 40 guys that we do are unbelievably talented. At some stage something's got to change a little bit. That hence why they're everyone's second favourite team because they score some amazing tribes and watch. And you know, like last year I reckon we we were playing a company where we were playing and there was a chip kick, and Chris Gibbs is next to me going, oh man, and I said, Yeah, and this this will work out. Sure enough, we score, you know. So that sort of stuff of is why I think the Drewer brand is so good. Like it's it's great to watch. I will never take that away from from what you know, I want to put make sure we play like a Fijian. You know, Simon brought that into the World Cup. Uh we we don't want to take the DNA of what makes the Drewer great. And it's probably frustrating at times, but that's the way we want to play. That's what keeps our players engaged, and uh but to do it, it's it's also a lot of hard work and um you know our boys are here training bloody hard at the moment, so it's it's good. And and obviously the Fijians are playing Test 40 today, which is half our team or more. 20 odd guys playing Test Rugby, which is is outstanding and shows that the Drewer is working towards the national team.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I love that phrase that talent doesn't always win. That's exactly right. The most talented team doesn't necessarily win, but the other aspect is just driving the hard work, those standards, those coming together aspects that they're they're the big ones for improving the ability of the talent involved.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, 100%, mate, 100%. And and and our our biggest thing everyone knows is on the road, you know, like we're we're pretty good at home. I actually don't think it's too far away. We just need to win one and and uh you know the snowball will will roll on, but uh it's just trying to get that first one.
SPEAKER_01:What's a what what's the hang-up on the road, you reckon? What is what is it about that? Is it just that the home ground is so awesome?
SPEAKER_00:Honestly, it's a hotel. A lot of these boys come and still still live in the village and it's great life and living's reasonably comfortable, reasonably easy. And you go to a hotel, you got these bloody big beds and and the food's out the gate and and the the family that they haven't seen for a long time, so the outside environment. You know, we lost to the hurricanes last play, and then we lost to the Waratars last play. So those two were our first two away games that we try to change things up, and I think if we'd won one of those, if not both, you know, that would have changed the whole year. People talk about it a lot, so of course it's in everyone's back of their mind, and and uh w we don't try and talk about it a lot because I honestly think it's like I said, it's just that close. Uh the home ground advantage I know teams don't like coming and playing daytime here. We hear a lot of bloody coaches moaning about it and trying to change draws and whatnot, but that's that's the beauty of super rugby. Perth's not much hotter, and Perth seems to win a lot of their games and struggle on the road too. So it's um it's a balance of just when we get to a place, how do how do we get it right and make sure the environment's comfortable enough to to get a victory?
SPEAKER_01:Are you are you test you do always test different things out when you go on the road? You go, Righto, let's see if this this psychology works or this little tweak makes a difference. Are you constantly doing that when you're going away?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we have. We we went obviously two days before, then we tried a day before. Again, I think with the the people that were brought in who are used to travelling. And again, I you know, we probably didn't do enough work with with our young men who had never, yeah, I think Tanya Larikura, who's now played for Fiji. And when we called him, he'd never been on a plane. But so his first home away game, which was Moana, we took him uh away, he'd not only not been overseas, he'd never been on a plane. You know, so he's a kid that has come out of Natandola sort of villages and brought him in and like you're thinking, mate, you'll be right. You know, he's footy, let's just go. And and the the kids going, well shit, this is my first time on a plane, and first time in a hotel, and first timing in a buffet, and first time everything. And you just sort of think, well, she's if we yeah, maybe we missed missed of what we could do. You know, um, we're excited that we're gonna play the Chiefs in Hamilton in Taronga pre-seasons the first time we're gonna go on the road for pre-season two New Zealand. Uh it's awesome that the Chiefs have accepted us to go over there, so we'll spend a week over there and and that's something different to to try and encourage, you know. It's okay, leaving leaving uh win.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, that's a cool little adjustment. So you've you've acknowledged that that's the little piece which is the problem, but then you've set it up as a learning experience. And then the pre-season where ultimately it doesn't matter wins or losses, that's the learning to to get used to uh travelling, being on the road, almost education piece around that, the point that you want to get better at. Yeah, we'll see how it works, mate. But it but it is a really thing awesome thing you acknowledge that you've got like the better you know your players, I guess, and your environment, the you know that this guy's hasn't done any of this stuff. So the fact that you're aware of it and you go, oh, okay, right, it just highlights those little bits which actually are important because if you expect him just to be know how to do do all this stuff and prepare properly, but he's never been on a pl, he's probably more distracted by the plane ride, let alone to think about the moves he's got to do, because this is a whole new novel experience, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and our boys um mate, they're just such great men to coach, really good. But to try and really get how they're thinking, I I think it's not it's not a fee gym way to to really open up around how they feel. I don't think I've heard any of our guys ever say no, you know. So it's like how do you how do you you know how do you ask how's it do you understand how you're feeling and is everything good to to say no no, I need a bit of help here? That's pretty hard. So again, that environment for growth, I just want to make sure everyone, when they turn up, the boys turn up, they they feel so comfortable, like that is family, that we we truly understand how they are feeling and and how they get in. You know, like I said, I feel unbelievably privileged to be part of this organization and then and dealing with these what we have now 45 athletes and making sure they reach their full potential. And that's all we can ask for.
SPEAKER_01:How do you get through to someone that never says no or tells you how they're really feeling?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's it's a it's a hard one. I mean, we we you know, um I'd say I mupps talked about you, you've got to understand where they're from, their family and their standing in the village, you know, is really important as well, whether they're uh a ratu, a chief, or a you know, a mata, a spokesman, or a bati, you know, a protector. So where they sit, there's fishermen, their environment and their standing in their village is still is still an important part of where where they're from. The confederacies, three confederacies which run the whole country. So it's it's understanding all of that. Even one tribe to the next tribe can't eat fish if unless someone allows them and all that stuff that I you learned from how amazing this place is, and you and uh and the understanding of their culture is so so awesome. And if you sort of understand that, that's a lot of help from the staff here. Um we've got a Master Nathar who's now gone to the GM of Fiji Rugby, but he was our trainer, he took the Fijian boys uh uh two golds as a trainer. He was um a massive help to me to understand all that culture and and how you how you get through it. But it I just I don't think it matters if you're in the hurricanes, the Chiefs, Saracens, a referee. If you if you're if you're uh you truly um want to help someone and they understand that, that that's how you get to really help them. I I'd hope everyone thinks uh it's a pretty pretty safe environment here, um and and that they can when they're ready to speak up if they've got issues.
SPEAKER_01:If you truly want to help someone and they can see that, that's the cool bit, isn't it? If they can see and feel that you genuinely want to help. That's that's the that's the key right there, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00:It is the key. And and even even how we've set up uh our offices here, you know, like is that right? You know, d do we get to see everyone greet everyone every morning? It's a massive thing for me. I know even back, I know everyone does it now, but I think Vern, Cotter, and Joe Schmidt, when we're at the bay, it was a massive thing that you you greeted every single person and you talk to them before you talk about rugby. And and if you're doing that every morning, you know, and and uh and you're having a telena around nothing but rugby or how's the family, you know, like we we hear it a lot on your show. Just get to know the athlete and and um I'm sure that that could make people feel like a trust environment.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I'm a massive believer that it's the invisible part which actually leads on to the things that you're all there to do, which is win games at rugby. But if yeah, people can feel it, they just Yeah, that in I actually heard the other day, Jacko, that that there's actually a part of your brain that I think it's the prefrontal cortex, which actually if that's that where the um psychological safety bit comes in. So if it's actually activates when you feel safe in a place through connection and whatnot, this part of the brain activates, which is then opens up the ability to learn better, to be m more motivation, as opposed to other parts which do the opposite. So if you're if you're if your brain's firing up there because you feel psychologically safe through trust in the stuff that you talked about, that actually leads into better learning on the other side of things as well, which I think is a cool thing just to understand as a coach that there's actually a bit of biology and not just psychology involved in that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's probably why I've got no hairmates, and hopefully. I think uh the other thing, the other thing is then the other side, you know, like is is is then when do you have to step up, when do you have to then confront, you know, when things aren't right. And so I think if you they know you're coming from the right place and then it's time to put your foot down and then say, well this is unacceptable. This is not what we're what we're about, which we've we we have to do. And you're doing it again from the right place because you know you don't want if someone's not living to their full potential and you're bringing their team down, you know it's a it's it's an important part of it as well. You can't just just slide through being coached by Eddie Jones I I I love what Eddie does and and that's his his strength I believe that he definitely brings you on the in the ride but when you you know you're not in the right place it's you get told that and I think that's one of his greater strengths of as well as Vern Cotter you know I and Joe Schmidt all the good ones that I that I've been coached with they they make you feel comfortable but when it's when it's not right uh you know it's not right and that's uh that's as important as as the other side as well.
SPEAKER_01:I think that's a really good point Jacko to acknowledge that when we're talking about this culture piece whilst we want the environment good as the head of that environment it's like the the parent in a family when it when it comes to a serious matter that you've got to put the foot down you're putting the foot down hard because of uh what what you want from that environment. If one of my children acting in a way which is not congruent with good values man they'll they'll get it they'll cop it if they're being a a dick to someone or not behaving in a way of course that we're not saying that that's not going to happen. I think that's the important distinction to make when you're talking about culture. To put people in their place if they're out of line is a big part of that role isn't it? Not just the making them feel good but also pulling them up when when when behaviour's not right.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah and that was the hardest thing I I'd say for me. Being assistant coach where you don't really have to worry about that you're running to sort of make you know to fair share of head coach and and there were times when you know probably could have done it better. That it was good learning. I've had what sort of times what sort of times Jack have got an well it just even been you know sort of late and and uh you know I I also understand it's hard sometimes to get a taxi in Fiji and not everyone has a car, you know, and you sort of just allow that versus you know that's that's not acceptable. Little things and there and there there's always you know there we didn't have a um too many massive things but you know like it's certainly you know it was a good learning I think I think having I dinner with uh Vern talking about you know what the obviously his experience here and then my experience there he said well I know you've just had three to five years under your belt in one year so you don't always get everything you've got in first year of coaching so good luck. Keep moving forward.
SPEAKER_01:The wisdom of some of those fellas is just awesome isn't it it's lovely. Now Jacko if we're gonna divulge to a bit of you now we're talking about some of your experiences and your learnings just then but you've had a a ride to professional coaching which is like it's had a massive detour in the middle with you did five years of professional refereeing. So you played an epic career yourself as a first five eight running the game for some of the top teams Saracens Chiefs for example and then you went into five years where you officiated 100 games 32 test matches in five years so you just rocketed through the referee ranks.
SPEAKER_00:What brought that about and what was the value you got out of that experience in your life um look I I sort of finished Sarys Saries was a great great great understanding of environment and culture at times that culture was was horrendous but in what way uh the setup we had two changing sheds at training and straight away you know you have clicks over here I don't know if you know uh black Black Friday we call I think uh 15 guys lost their jobs brought in Brendan Venter took over and Brendan's a great coach that did things differently at a South and take over Eddie was there Eddie moved on my first year we had four head coaches where do I start you know like it was a genuine you know uh sideshow but at the end of it my last game was a final you know and we lost that and then Sarry's carried on to to be what they are so the learning of probably some of those cultures not being well run but then also victory uh sort of you know helps helps the culture and that's what I started with. I think you know winning winning creates a pretty good culture. You know you probably asked me at the end of around what's the thing I I think winning at the end of the day in professional sport helps every culture. Losing just amplifies if it's not coming out real good. But then um left finishing at Saris I I'd sort of had 12 years professional rugby and I'd had enough like of of team and by the time I was finishing you getting told what to do when to do it and when we started you know you had to look after yourself go back to to understanding your own self but then sort of by then it was yeah you end up getting two managers another few coaches and for me from where I'd start and what I loved about it you had to had to look after yourself. So Eddie I was had a nice opportunity to go to Sun Tory with Eddie for another year and then and go into the coaching role. I just thought I always wanted to be a coach but I just thought trying something different where you're essentially an individual in a sport that's rugby is is very hard. The refing was an opportunity that New Zealand put together was a big punt mate like you know coming home for for 20 cents versus going to Suntory for more money than it was a stressful punt but it was one that I really wanted to try and and mate I loved it. It was a huge awesome part of being a referee um trying to help their culture I think it was a very individual and it is an individual idea of what you're doing in refing but I think you had to have a good culture around it because you know as we everyone knows it's it's brutally tough if you get it wrong. And if you haven't got genuine genuine people in in the organization that actually care about you then you don't know if they've got your back or not even though you are out there by yourself. So I really enjoyed working with the likes of you know Wayne Barnes, Noah Jones and the greats of the reffing but also they they didn't really understand team culture as well because they'd they'd always done reffing. So that was part of Linda Bray Linda Bray was very good at that as well. So trying to get that sort of culture through the reffing I really enjoyed. And then my hip gave way mate so I had to have an artificial hip and then yeah VC Vern took over Fiji so it was just a I was very lucky very lucky in terms of transition and what I would like to do and what I what worked out was nice.
SPEAKER_01:Artificial hip yeah mate yeah yeah it's good is that is that what's is that what ended the because you obviously have to be super fit to be a ref. Is that what ended it for you that just couldn't get it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah I missed out on the 2019 World Cup uh in Japan which I was pretty gutted with well I was super gutted that was my goal when I started I was lucky when I went to the 2015 World Cup um again to have phone calls from Michael Cheka who was very hard to ref to say you know I I can't believe you're not there shows you again the game you know something like that he he he admitted it when I first answered the call he said mate I don't even know why I'm ringing you but I just want to let you know I can't believe you're not there and and then my hip just gave way I was running and and uh I was in surgery a couple of weeks later so sort of probably was a bit of a blessing I suppose that otherwise I would have been had another year and a half of refing instead of just lucky enough to get picked up by like I said Vern into this into this great country that I'm still at.
SPEAKER_01:And what did you take away from it like I know off air you were talking about some experience you had dealing with a lot of coaches at World Cups. How did sort of the those conversations help your coaching when you did transition?
SPEAKER_00:Well it just of all it's just mostly for referees to understand what coaches go through. You know like and I don't think they always understood that the at the top of the game the the pressure of winning and performing is is you know out the gate and it can always be a referee's fault. And and I was sort of on the referee side saying well what do we do to help this? You know how do we have good open communication to a coach don't be afraid to say you're wrong you know that puts out a lot of steam if you try and defend what you're doing and I think we changed the way we reviewed in referee around that and tried to be a little bit more open around what coaches got um but then to go to the World Cup and as a coach you know we we played Wales and Matt Carly I had lucky enough ref for a long time we didn't have a good game he got just you know destroyed in the media and and I just sent him a message going mate I I understand where you come from you and funnily enough I was in a lift two weeks later still at the World Cup and Matt Carly's in the door you know and he's just like mate I just want to say thanks you know for what it meant for for you not blowing up because you know we we we possibly could have won that game and we didn't and you you're pissed off and you're angry. I'm I'm the most angry when it happens right there but straight after the game I try to still now go and have a beer with the referee and change sheet after every game you know so it's to understand we're all still part of this game and we love the game. It's not everyone's making the game correct all the time and there's always mistakes doesn't matter if you're a referee. So you know at the end of the day you can blow up and the king of blow ups but then after after a game yeah it's hey let's have a beer and create memories.
SPEAKER_01:What would you suggest to coaches at any level that's dealing with a referee before a game or even during a game what's some good takeaways that as a coach you can be better at when dealing with referees which will help the relationship and the and the values of the game go well with the coach referee relationship?
SPEAKER_00:Well look for first of all for a referee look don't be in it for for me you know um I hope Paul Williams doesn't mind James Dolman too. You know I think when they started it was a bit of a it was a job maybe a little bit of glam not glamour that's the wrong word but you know you're in the middle of a rugby field. I think both of those guys are outstanding refs now and and and it's not about them that's about what they do on the on the field and I think those two are great examples of of understanding why they're in the game. They're in the game to serve the game. They're not in the game to be be the game and and I think you know that's number one. So the referee's got that side to to deal with coaches I think coaching one of the great things is can talk a referee about what they're doing this week. You know is there a is there a line out that they need to be careful of for their positioning. You know if you you're helping the referee around understanding what your team's trying to do you know we're gonna do a lot of overthrows this week so just be careful you're positioning at the back straight away you're you're giving them a little bit of your intel um but you do it to help them. You know there's nothing worse than a referee standing 18 meters at back of a line out you throw it over and you got bloody a fee and running through that channel and you know like in the hurricanes trying to defend it you're in all of a sudden a massive position and out of it you probably get lost for the next three phases. You know a decision could be made because you're in a bad position. So a coach helping them say this is what we're gonna do on the first line out just maybe stay at the front is going to help your positioning and if you're doing that instead of trying to talk about the opposition and what options then you you've got a pretty good opportunity I think at the end of the game to say oh mate I thought you reffed well probably a positional stuff that you could have got better or coaches are super super understanding of what the game needs and what they want so so help the referee who's trying to just manage it.
SPEAKER_01:What about the blow ups afterwards mate? If you're the king of blow ups how do you how do you what what would you suggest about the blow ups? Because a lot of coaches across all grades are into the referees and that's quite universal. What what's the what's the flow on effect to that mate like when coaches are into the referees after games particularly yeah it's just there's no place for it.
SPEAKER_00:Well my blow up it would be blow up then and there you know like I I could say anything right then and there. It's not to the referee it's uh just yeah a blow up as it happens and you can get over it I I tend to get over it quickly because I I guess I know what the referee's going through you know so the idea is hopefully that you can have your blow up and then bar at the end of the game if you're then calm and can question you know a couple of decisions or what you want to do if you're calm then you're gonna get a resume calm answer. I think uh if you feel like if you're you're in in the wrong place to to go and have a chat to someone then it's probably not the right thing. So again you talk about it your your culture if you you want to get an answer you don't go and don't really know the bloke and then go straight to steamroll effect. You're not gonna get an answer that you want are you and that's even going to fuel the fire. So it's not easy. Our game's super complex super hard um I know young kids games are hard you know with the TMO involvement and and everything involved it's a it's a it's a tough game to ref and it's a tough game to coach and play.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah I have a little bit of a a soft spot for referees because I've I've seen a couple of young referees get really lose themselves like yeah you know how in in club stuff where you get some young kids 20 years old refereeing games and they've been blown up at and they don't recover from it. Like you forget sometimes that coaches are generally older and then they're blowing up at a younger kid and I I've always had a little bit of you know like why would you do that to someone? They're volunteering their time most of the time and there's a sentiment around that which I think is is harsh. What what I've also seen Jacko is when a coach particularly the head coach acts in a certain way and blames referees for the result then it filters down to the players and the amount of times I've heard young kids talking about the first thing how is the game they go oh the referee was shit or useless or they ruined the game or they cost us the game as their first response is is a sentiment which like it is just poor coaching I think and if if the referee's call lost you the game and that's your excuse then it's it's a week out in my in my head. That should be the the last thing like but if a coach comes hard with that like says the boys that's on the referee or gets into the referee publicly then it filters down to the players and they start using that as a cop out rather than let's turn up on Monday and fix all the mistakes we made and just get better at the the things we wanted to get to and I think it's a small tweak from a coaching point of view which has bigger impact. You don't blame someone for a loss. You go yourself first would you would you think that's a good sentiment?
SPEAKER_00:Sounds good on paper as a referee I get it but I do agree. You know when you take it back on a Monday or Tuesday and then sort of say well we've got this referee this week and he stuffed us up nine years ago you know that's the difference. I think as you as you rightly know it's it's a it does it's part of our game it's always been part of the game but uh when you and you drag the hangover in into a team environment and and you can feel it when I when I was referee and you know there'd be a first penalty you'd go oh here we go and you could already see oh obviously this coach is bloody told and that I'm a useless prick and that's it. So yeah again it's a it's a tough balance mate and being part of the playing side where I was horrendous to referees and I apologise to everyone to to then ref and now to coach it's it's uh it's hard not to yeah it's and that's the beauty of our game in it as well. But you're right with young kids mate you you we want young kids refing we want them to enjoy it and we want them we need them. That's that's the big thing about it. We need them out there.
SPEAKER_01:We do. Well that was kind of the other thing we did which I just think is like a a a good thing to say here is that we actually had a I had to talk to a group of parents around the behaviours that you say to your kids in the car on the way home from your thing these referees are just young kids themselves. So before you instill in your children that the ref was terrible just remember that their kids as well learning their craft so if we could avoid you know disparaging remarks about referees to your young players it goes a long way just to changing some of that mindset coming through. Anyway we'll see how it goes mate we'll see if in years to come Jacko that it's better stop that mate because every referee's probably saying that I not doing exactly what I'm saying here. Well may it may be the case mate but we'll we'll we'll just mate we'll just see so Jacko it's come to that time where we asked like mate your your reflections are awesome mate where around from playing to coaching to referring to coaching and mate you've seen a lot so I'd like to ask this question of you to to to round out the show is do you have anything over your experience that you believe about culture that you believe in that you reckon your peers and contemporaries would disagree with?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah look I like I said I you hear a lot about culture and that's uh I think winning winning in professional sport creates um helps create culture. So you know it's a lot of c every coach now has this ability and and wonderful platforms through either listening to you or or podcasts or reading that that that you can form form a culture and get the great gross and all that and and that I think just winning and losing in professional sport creates that little gap between how you going. And that that's unfair because I I think you know you can have a great culture like I like I said I think we've got a great culture but if you're if you're not winning then the outside pressures come in um can affect it all the time. So it's uh yeah it's uh I'm not sure if every coach would believe that I th you know so I think that's something that I've been down around no matter what sport either playing refing or or coaching now that um the but the W helps helps everything. And uh you can go a long way to try and help that. There's no doubt about it if you've got the crap culture completely wrong you're never going to do it. But yeah there's plenty of great cultures out there and I think Rob Penny's an amazing coach he he was brilliant with me when we we played the Crusaders and how does it change from from that one year to them winning. I don't think you changed the culture of what he did but he won. So now it's Crusader culture's back right I'm sure we've probably heard that and and Rob Penny's an outstanding coach with a great team and and he had a few injuries the first year kept a pretty healthy team the second year and wins. So um yeah that that's probably one of the major cultures thing around me is is around we're all striving to get that that great high performance culture. Unfortunately the sad thing is it depends on the win-loss record of how you actually go. Yeah and I guess it also it depends on the expectations around the win-loss thing too right like in a place like yours where the expectations are high it's even probably more important you have to tick a few of those W's off right yeah and we're not trying to hide away from this our third year like geez how did we make two quarters already you know like that's that's tough to do in super rugby yet um we we want to keep going and we want to win you know and that's that's the beauty of of being here you know if you were if you weren't here in this this great country and this rugby bloody um they're just so hungry for rugby you know like I said we talked to Boffy about dropping a thousand balls a hundred balls so far and another thousand into this community I've never seen kids want rugby balls so badly you know and that's just the beautiful thing about being in this island the the privilege of being here and yeah forever thankful that the opportunity came that I was able to to to help and and coach uh Fiji and rugby players.
SPEAKER_01:Well I may I just want to mention that because that that was a great initiative from both the Rebel Sport crew and the Silverfern brand to dump a whole lot of balls not dump to donate a whole lot of balls to rugby and in Fiji and just to explain it then you just essentially opened up the back of the Ute and kids came from everywhere, grabbed a ball and this is for the betterment of the game because not everyone there has a ball right that's the they they're playing with all sorts of stuff.
SPEAKER_00:No that's right mate and and like you said it was it was an amazing effort from those two to to come over. Unfortunately a thousand balls got caught in custom so we they actually brought a hundred balls over and the three of us were pumping mad on Monday uh Saturday morning and it was 30 degrees and if you see that the two big men plus myself were not in the greatest takes um and we lost about 30 kilos between us. But it was all worth it to have a couple of carvers and and watch a great game of um but uh Nandy versus Barr and then halftime to think how we're gonna get these balls out and there was no need to worry about it. The the kids came from everywhere and it's a shame we didn't have all thousand because that would have been uh somet something something special but uh then to walk out and see three mates three young kids passing a ball to each other and with smiles on their faces and and they know they've got a rugby ball now to to learn and and and get their trade right of playing rugby and hopefully play for the Jurin the national team is what it's all about. So yeah great initiative from those two.
SPEAKER_01:Well I love it mate I think it's so cool that big companies come come out and support the grassroots like that it's an absolute pleasure and it's part of the bigger values of this game and and why people like that are are doing great things for it. It's awesome. Glenn Jackson mate before we finish this show today I'd just like to go over my my sort of three big takeaways that I got from you from this conversation today. Number one the culture of leading yourselves I love this that you talked about each player being a leader of themselves and I think that's that personal responsibility sometimes makes a really big difference to the overall collective you also mentioned the importance of just understanding where everyone's at not everybody actually even knows what responsibility looks like. Some people haven't even been on a plane before and to know how to act in those situations. So as a coach our job is to actually help players lead themselves better and I think it's a good one for all coaches to know at every level. Number two I loved how you talked about one of your frameworks on your pillars of togetherness investment memories enthusiasm the memories aspect and about creating memories all the time every day every interaction and I just think it's a lovely thing to just remember whether you're coaching whether you're parenting whether you're leading anything is that if you're trying to create memories in everything you do you're actually going a long way to actually doing great things and I think it's a lovely concept. Number three you talked about if you truly want to help someone and they can feel that that's where the real power is it's that ability for people to feel how much you care. And you talked about shaking hands, greeting people every day making them feel like you're invested in them and helping them to grow. You said your definition of culture is an environment where people can grow to their full potential and if they can feel that you're invested in that growth and that you truly care and want to help then they're all aboard with everything you say. Glenn Jackson what a pleasure to have you on the Coaching Culture podcast with me today.
SPEAKER_00:Thanks Ben keep up a great show mate love it