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Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Eddie Jones on culture, risk, and advice to all coaches.
Want a culture that actually lives on the field? We sat down with Eddie Jones to unpack the coaching choices that create real belonging, sharper decision-making, and braver rugby. From leaving a safe career to grinding through 100‑player university squads in Japan, Eddie shows how risk, clarity, and context build both teams and coaches who last.
We dive into designing culture through the game itself—why a clear playing model unites diverse squads better than slogans, and how fundamentals must be taught in context to transfer under pressure. Eddie breaks down why over-organization dulls vision, how to use patterns to break defenses without becoming a slave to shape, and the simple scans elite playmakers use to act faster. He shares the power of role clarity and one‑on‑one coaching to remove hidden blocks, plus practical ways to keep feedback immediate and light using just a phone.
You’ll hear the Brumbies reset story—accepting a bad year, flipping conditioning and structure, and co-creating a plan leaders owned all the way to titles. Eddie is candid about missteps too: reading the global kicking trend late, pushing change too fast, and why he still chooses boldness over comfort. We talk mentorship (keep your advice circle “super skinny”), hiring for character over credentials, and the daily routines that protect coaching energy. And yes, we go deep on tech: how to use it to accelerate learning while keeping the game flowing—goal-line and red-card TMO, let refs decide the rest.
If you’re a coach at any level, this conversation gives you a playbook: be the person players flock to, build the game that builds your culture, free minds with clarity, and take the smart risks others avoid. Listen, steal what works, and tell us the one change you’ll make this week. If this resonated, follow, share with another coach, and leave a quick review so more people find it.
If you can SUBSCRIBE, RATE, and SHARE the show and series, you would be doing your bit to grow this show. Very appreciated. Ben
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www.coachingculture.com.au
It's so important for young coaches, you've got to take risks. You've got to take risks, you've got to back yourself, be prepared to be bold. You can never please everyone. The only person you've got to please essentially is yourself and your players. Do not get tired coaching, you're not giving it 100%. The other thing I'd say to young coaches treat yourself like a business, and that's about getting good good experiences, looking for people who are better coaches than you and try to learn from them. How do you get that togetherness, that belonging, you know, which is all the stuff you talk about, mate? How do you get that new culture into a team that had a hundred kids? I divided them up into three groups, and I did uh hour and a half sessions of three groups every afternoon, six days a week. Um made me understand how important it is to coach the fundamentals.
SPEAKER_00:Well, um Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I've been hearing, I've been loving this size of game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Eddie Jones, one of Rugby's super coaches, having been at the very top of the global game for over 30 years, winning pretty much every competition he's been involved with. Super leagues, top leagues, and world cups. There is in the history of the game very few, probably on one hand, the coaches with his level of success and experience. Eddie was the very first guest on this podcast 50 coaches ago, and he's back today to share his experiences and wisdom. Eddie, welcome back to the podcast.
SPEAKER_01:No, thanks, Ben. I've been listening to a few of them, mate, and uh really enjoyed them. So you're doing a great job, mate.
SPEAKER_00:Mate, I really appreciate your little texts now and then when you hear it, when you hear one you like, you you drop me a bow, it's it's it's lovely. Eddie, what I thought today, um for for you, I think the real value of your experience is um in line with the podcast intention, which is the betterment of coaches globally, wherever the coaches are, school, club level, professional level, about how they can actually be the better version of themselves and and getting the stuff out of experiences like you've had, which you don't learn on accreditation courses or your levels or things like that. So, if I may, I'd love this session to be about your experiences and the little personal nuggets you've picked up through your experiences of coaching along the way. What do you reckon?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, we'll give it a game, mate.
SPEAKER_00:Awesome. Righto, mate. Well, from the last interview, I'd like to just ask that question to start with. Is you said this on the first one culture is the way you do things. I've you've heard it described as the behaviour when you're not with people. Do you still do you still stand by that? Have you got any um additions to that?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, the the only the only thing I've been thinking about in that, because it's a it's a a really good question. And like I did a little uh coaching clinic with some Japanese coach just saying, and actually the the topic we were talking about is how do you develop your culture? And the the thing that struck me, you can either do it through the game, so you can create the game that then reflects the behaviors you want, um, or you can be very purposeful, which most of the New Zealand coaches are about the you know, creating that more family environment and and being very strong on values. So I think you can do it either either way, and you can do it, do it successfully, and and obviously you can do it unsuccessfully as well. But I think that's the thing that's probably I'll be thinking about the most. Because just with Japan at the moment, you know, we've got a quite a uh dishog dishomogeneous. I don't know whether that's a word, mate. I know the word you're trying to say. We've got a lot of mixture within the team, you know. We've got Tongans who have gone to school in Japan, we've got New Zealand boys, we've got South African boys, uh, we've got Japanese boys, you know, some from Good Universe, some from poor universe. So it's actually a a really strong mix, and what brings them all together is is the rugby and and playing the rugby. So we've tried to develop some behaviours out of that to then develop a new style of Japan team. Mmm. Is it evolving as you as you're going? Uh I think so. Yeah, I think so. Um, yeah, and it evolves around, you know, the game of rugby, you just watched the games last night. You know, the team that works hardest off the ball generally wins the game. You know, if if the talents talent's about even, the team that works harder in crucial moments wins the game. So, how do you cultivate those sort of behaviours? Because I think if you get those sort of behaviours on the field, it doesn't necessarily translate to off the field, but I think it gives you a greater chance of getting those behaviours off the field as well.
SPEAKER_00:Have you has your cultural aspect and approach to it changed over your 30 years at the top level?
SPEAKER_01:Uh no, because it's always a bit of an experiment, mate, I think. You know, I think, you know, sometimes, you know, there's a lot of coaches that want to they go and they want to develop culture. You know, how do we develop the culture of this team? I've always probably had a view that let's see what evolves out of this. Um, but let's get clear about how we want to play, because that's the one thing we do all together. Let's be clear about how we want to play. Uh, engage the players as as much as as you can, depending on their experience and their their age level in in that process, and then and let's see what comes out of that.
SPEAKER_00:Rugby is the thing that brings us together. Use that as your start point to develop your culture.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, I think it's I think it's definitely worth considering, mate. Yeah. Yeah, because you you think about, particularly, I think, with younger players now, um, and I was talking to a coach the other day, yeah, they need to have real clarity about how they want to play. And the and the clarity is obviously uh a style to play, but then be able to adapt to to the game. Um and then they they want to have a very strong uh and clear expectation of their roles, and I think that's become even more important in rugby as as the generation changes. Yeah, I think players used to be more probably more flexible and adaptable before. But you consider now, mate, if you're a 12-year-old kid, you know, we were just talking about your son before he came on. You're 12-year-old now, you're thinking about making rugby your career. Whereas, you know, when you grew up, it was probably something you thought about. When I grew up, it wasn't, it was just a a vacation, you know. So they've got to be a lot more um deliberate in in terms of becoming a rugby player, and because of that, I think they want a clearer, uh, clearer role and and the expectation to be clearer of what they need to do. And then I think the way you you you communicate now has to be more individual than than group settings. Obviously, you know, team meetings and unit meetings and all those small group meetings are still important, but the individual meetings become far more important for the coaches now. And you've got to become good at them.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, right? You do. Do you think that that more clear clarity, clearer expectations of roles, if that's in, it allows players to be do the the other stuff, the cultural side of stuff, better because they're more relaxed and they know what they've got to do on field, the bit which brings them together. I think it frees them up a bit, mate.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And that's like you know, what do you want a player to be the best version of themselves? So how do you free them up to do that? So give them, you know, the old idea of their heads of Swiss cheese and how many holes do you fill. Yeah, you you want to keep that as clear as possible.
SPEAKER_00:I love it. How do you free a player up to be the best version of themselves? That's that's like the coaching conundrum, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I reckon you you've got to find out what's holding them back to start with. Like I tell you, I had a conversation, I won't obviously say the player's name, but one of our young props who who you could see he didn't like tackling. You know, you always know the props who don't like tackling, they get behind the buck, right? They stick up their hand, coach, I'm here. Yeah, but you're not doing it. Yeah. And you know, so when they get in that position a lot, you know they don't really like tackling, right? So then then you've got to try to work out why they don't like tackling. Did something happen when they were young? Did a did a coach go crook at them? Uh, did they have a bad injury when they were young? Were they taught badly? Is it a skill factor, you know, is it a social factor? Um, is it a is a physical factor? So you've got to try to find that out for them. Um, because uh the for every player, you're trying to, you're obviously trying to um improve their strengths, get them better at what they're good at. But there's always a part of their game that there's that that's holding them back a bit. And so to that one-on-one discussion about that area is one of the crucial. And I said to this young prop, I said, I uh definitely the first time anyone's ever said it to him, I said, Why don't you like tackling? And he looked at me like I had two heads. Uh he said, What do you mean? I said, Well, you get in a position where you don't want to tackle all the time. He said, Oh, yeah, yeah. He said, Uh no, you're right, I don't like tackling. Uh, and then then we had a discussion about why I didn't like tackling, you know, and something happened when he was a kid, got hit on the head, uh, coach went crook on him. So he's tried to avoid tackling. And and you know, a lot of times they'll go back to experiences they've had in their past. Um and I'm not trying to be a psychologist here, but but I reckon for every play there's that little sweet spot you've got to get to to find out what's holding them back. And you know, my era, that sort of thing was done over a beer. Like players used to talk about that over a beer after after game, and in our era it used to be after training as well. You know, and and that those sort of informal discussions about players play has definitely decreased, you know, because they don't spend a lot of time talking about rugby now because it's because it's their job. I think that's that's one of the reasons. Like you've still got the the top 10% that are into it all the time, they're watching everything, they're talking about everything. But I reckon the vast majority of players now are less students of the game. They're they're devoted players and they love the game, but they're they're less of a student of the game.
SPEAKER_00:I guess, too, there's so much more other options these days, isn't it? Just myself working at a school, the options are phenomenal.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Back in your day it was rugby or rugby league, that's it. Take your pick.
SPEAKER_01:There's no Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, none of that sort of thing. I was watching this book the other day, right? He must have been about my age. And he must have spent 10 minutes just flicking through Instagram. Just flicking through. So, you know, you can learn it in an old age. I might take it that way.
SPEAKER_00:Well, that's the next step, isn't it? Like 65 years old, isn't that that's the that's the next journey? Instagram Kim. Instagram Kim, would love to see it. Now, mate, you talked about the vocation aspect that it wasn't something that you were thinking about growing over uh when you're growing up. Um, but I'm really interested in that, and the coaches that listen to this will be too, is how did when you look back at the start of your career, you essentially I'm really intrigued, you gave up a teaching, principling sort of job opportunity, career prospects, and you dove into coaching. You dove into Ranwick, and then you went like what was the you know, what was your thinking to do that? Not a lot do it, not leave a guaranteed profession and go into one which is a little bit more up in the air in a lot of ways. What what was your mindset and and how did you attack that?
SPEAKER_01:It was a conversation I had with the chairman of the school. He was uh AFL player, played for Melbourne with under, you know, one of their most successful periods. Big guy, big tough guy, management consultant, made a lot of money. And I came in, I said, look, I said the rugby's game professional. I'm thinking about uh becoming a coach, or I've got to, if I want to stay in education, I've I've probably got to do a master's of education. He said, if I was you, I'd go and coach. So I think he was giving me giving me the tip that I I didn't have much of a future left as a principal, but go to coaching. But you know, I I I grew up loving the game, mate. You know, for me it was it was a huge part of our life growing up, you know, and I got to playing teams that won all the time because I played with the L. So it was so much fun. And then when I got a chance to coach, you know, I coached at Ramwick for a year as an amateur. Um, absolutely loved it, mate. Absolutely loved it. And I always, always wanted, and I still do, mate, to coach the perfect game. Like, can you get your team to go out there and control it from minute one to minute eighty and not make a mistake? Like, how good would that be? Like, how good would that be? And I still want to do that, you know. So that's the aim. What's the closest you've come? Uh it was probably the semi-final against uh New Zealand in 2019 World Cup. You know, we had we had pretty good control of that game all the way through. Um it was just we gave them uh one try on that on our trial on overthrow. Um, which spoiled it, you know, it could have been close to a perfect game.
SPEAKER_00:And mate, how and when you started, did you get paid? Like, were you scrimping and sc saving? Like, or how did you get the money aspect? Because that's a bit a lot of coaches struggle with. Did how to give up your full-time job and do that? How did you negotiate that?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I was lucky my my wife was very understanding. You need a a good partner, mate. Uh, I was on a good good uh wage in Australia, probably around a hundred thousand, and I went to Japan for coaching for 50,000. Um, so it was a it was a it was a risk, and I think that's one of the things you've got to do. I was speaking to this guy yesterday, uh, he works for Red Bull. Um, you know, and Red Bull are they're a fantastic organization. I don't know you know if he drinks good for you or not, but in terms of sport, they've done a lot of good things in in football. Um, and this and as we know, they're starting to get into rugby. And he was saying the big thing they talk about there as a coach or as a high performance is that you've got to take risks. And I think it's so important for young coaches, you've got to take risks. You've got to take risks, you've got to back yourself, you've got to take risks, and that only not only pertains to to yourself as a coach, but the way you coach. Be prepared to be bold, take risks, look at how you can improve the game. Don't be at don't don't follow other people, look to see how you can change the game yourself.
SPEAKER_00:And what was it, what was the driver to go to take a 50% pay cut to go to Japan of all places?
SPEAKER_01:What I I I just wanted to coach. I just wanted to coach full time. I remember, you know, the game went professional in '96. There was two jobs in Australia, Queensland, New South Wales. I remember, you know, Glenn Allen and I, good mates, uh, we applied for the New South Wales job. Neither of us had any coaching CV. Um, and we missed out. Um, so there was no jobs in Australia, none, you know. So what do you do? Go to Japan, get some experience. And I thought I'd done some work with a the university team that I went to, um, and they were terrible, mate. Like the prop, the tight head prop would have been five foot seven and weighed 95k. He was the biggest bloke in the team. Um, and I thought this is gonna be a good experience, you know, learning to coach kids that aren't very good. Um, you got a hundred kids there, you're the only coach. Um, so you don't get better coaching experiences than that. Because the only way you get better at coaching, that's the other thing. I'd say to all young coaches is coach. Get any team you can and coach, get your own team and coach, and the only way you get better is coaching. Make mistakes, coach, and coach every area of the game. Don't become a specialist, you know, coach every area of the game.
SPEAKER_00:And and and was it was uh Japan just so different, like from Australian coaching? What did you learn from it?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I learned how to organize. Um, you know, I had a hundred kids, I divided them up into three groups, and I did an hour and a half sessions of three, three to uh teams, three groups every afternoon, six days a week. Um made me understand how important it is to coach the fundamentals well. Um, but not in uh not in a you certainly have to drill it sometimes, but then put it in in the context. Because one of the things that Japanese players, and particularly guys who haven't had a rich environment uh to grow up in, that if you don't have the context of the skill right, the transfer to the game is very poor. And I see that a lot. I see that a lot in now. There's a there's a phase of coaching going through now that is very non-contextual, that's very organizational, um, doesn't really look at how the how the game is being played, but it's all about this this idea of you've got to be super organized, which you do. But you've got to be organized to play the game, not to play a uh perception of the game, which is to be the to be you know super organized, you you know where everyone is, you know where everyone's got to be. The game's not like that. You watch, you know, you watched the games last night, very rarely any of those, any of those tries they scored with planned trials, you know, they came off the back of someone doing something good, and then being able to react to that.
SPEAKER_00:When you talked about the phase of things happening, do you think it's it's got we're in a phase now of quite organized structural rugby? Is that what you're you're referring to?
SPEAKER_01:Like Well, I think I think there's a lot of coaching like that now. I think that because you know, one when New Zealand started one, three, three, one, right? And and virtually everyone in the world's copied uh New Zealand, haven't they? Like if you look at it in in reality, everyone's copied new. So say everyone went to one, three, three, one. You know, and you can get any team now, you can get blokes off the street here and ask them to play one, three, three, one, and they can play it in ten minutes. Because it's easy, it's simple. Um, and so everyone adopted that sort of style of attack, that what do you call it, a pod style of attack. So it became very, very simple to organize. And I think too much time went into the organise, too much time's gone into the organization of that rather than the skills of the player. Because all that's supposed to do is like any organization you've got or any pattern you've got is to break the defence up and then and then play with the skills, play on top with your skills to so you don't let the defence recover. And I think there's been too much about the the the actual pattern or the formation, whatever you want to call it, or shape, and not enough on the skills, and particularly with younger players now. You know, you want you you you want younger players not to not to be able to play a pattern, but to be able to play the game. And as the game unfolds, take advantage of it.
SPEAKER_00:You see a lot of teams like more worried about getting in the right position than actually looking up and going for it, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think it's been interesting watching Australia, you know, when they f when they first started up after Joe, you know, they were very much that island um sets of three attackers, and it just didn't work for them. You know, they they struggled to to to be effective, and now they've gone to this more play, you know, they but they play off nine a lot, or they played a little bit more off 10 last night. They play off nine, they try to get little little holes in the defense, and then they play quickly off that, and they're becoming a much harder side to beat and and a much better side to watch, I reckon.
SPEAKER_00:They're playing some good rugby, aren't they?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, really good. Yeah, look at the first 20 minutes yesterday. They played some super rugby, really good rugby, didn't get anything for it, and yeah, unfortunately, particularly now, I reckon that's the other part, I reckon, Ben, that's changed in in rugby to a great degree. I reckon teams get disappointed quicker, and I reckon it's in most sports now. If they're not getting what they want, they can go away. Unless you've got great leadership, they can go away a bit quicker, and that's why you tend to get these big momentum swings in in games now. And you see it in all sorts all games at the moment, not just not just rugby.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I love it, mate. Talking about big swings, how did you go from university for half-cut salary to then jumping into after that you got involved with Santori, got involved with Japan? How did that, mate? How what would you suggest for coaches listening? How did you make that jump from low-level coaching gazillion kids to then going boom professional rugby? Because that's something coaches are ultimately striving to do. What was the the big rocks for you there?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think luck, mate, was probably the major thing. But I reckon you just got to coach well, because if you coach well, people hear about you. Um and your best ambassadors are your players. So if you're coaching well, you're improving players, um, jobs come up, they they you know, they talk to people and you and you you get in the picture and and then you get get opportunities. Because I think now in in professional rugby coaching, I think if you you can get stuck in at a level pretty quickly now and it's hard to break through. Like I think someone was saying, I was talking to someone the other day, you know, is can a community coach ever become a national coach now? What if they were in a yeah, well, I think I think it's difficult, mate. It'd be very difficult because once you get in that community level, which is you know the the best level to start at, you've got to have some success pretty quickly to to to be then looked at for a professional job. The the the other thing I did, mate, and uh only because I I loved coaching, I wanted to get better. Um, I remember I was I coached at at Talk I had had a I had December, January off, and you and Mackenzie, who you know we played with a lot, was still playing at the Brumbies. So I went down, I went down and um spent two weeks there. And because I wanted to find out what was going on at professional level. So I spent my own money, two weeks there. You know, I didn't have to spend too much on food because you and I only used to eat sausage rolls, so we'd go down the pie shop. Like, yeah, you think about how the games change. He basically lived on sausage rolls and pies. Yeah, as one of the most successful tight ends in Australian rugby. Um, so and then and then that that ended up the Brumbies had a vacancy as as uh the development coach, and I got offered that job, and I I just signed with Santauring. I got offered the job as a development job and development coach and I knocked it back. Um and then it ended up like six months later, I got offered the head coach's job. But that was all about because I put myself in a position to be known, um, inquisitive. You you gotta you you gotta treat yourself like a business, mate. That's the other thing I'd say to young coaches. Treat yourself like a business. So, how do you add value to yourself? Yeah, you've got to spend to add value to yourself, and that's about getting good good experiences, looking for people who are are better coaches than you and try to learn from them. Um, and you in in a way it's an informal networking, but I think don't be one of those people that just network, be a person who's very, very deliberate about wanting to get better as a coach. So if I was if I wanted to learn about work ethic, right, as a coach, I the first bike I'd go and see now is Craig Bellamy. Right? So pick out the coaches that that you think are good at at certain areas, because every case is not good at everything. Like, you know, that's the one thing. Work out what you what you can be good at, make that your strengths, and then are there other areas you've got to tidy up, go and see people who who are good at it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And and have you found just when you're going to those at the coaching world and rugby particularly is pretty open to that sort of stuff. Fantastic, mate.
SPEAKER_01:I reckon, yeah, there's very few places in the world that'll won't let you have a look. Yeah, and that's one that's one of the great attributes of of rugby. And we've still got that as that's a bit of the old, you know, the old traditional values. And I think rugby's kept that and we hope that continues. Because I think, you know, people are really good at at sharing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Even even if someone like people listening to this that are coaching in a small town place in Texas and in the states, they they've really, if you want to go well, you have to reach out and you have to look elsewhere and be brave and have guts, isn't it? To just go.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:We had this bloke when we were in uh Denver, this bloke from the local uh Colorado University came in and had a coffee with me. Just wanted to have a chat. Like, and he he basically called up from didn't know him from Bar of Soap and said, Yeah, mate, come in and we'll have a coffee out of coffee, and you know, he had a good chat, and I'm sure maybe he learned something, I don't know. But uh you you've gotta you've gotta you've gotta do that as a young coach or as any coach.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, mate, couldn't agree more. And I love that phrase you said about you're just um your players are your ad uh your ambassadors as well, you said earlier, which I loved, but also like if you're going into an environment too, then if you if you leave a really good mark just by being a good person or inquisitive and curious, you're actually leaving a good mark behind you, like you said, that if things open up, they know you, they've had an experience with you, and there's opportunities potentially in the future.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. And the the other thing on that I'd add, mate, I was lucky enough to be coached by Bob DeWire. And I remember Bob used to say, always speak to the best players, mate. He said they're the best coaches, and and he's so right. So you go to a place like say you go to Melbourne Storm, you want to speak to Munster, you want to speak to Papenhouse, and and just ask them, you know, what are you thinking? Where's your attention? How do you become a good player? Just you know, normal questions you can ask players like that because they give you little insights in the in the greatness. Yeah, like I uh as an example, like I went back, Alan Farrell, you know, don't coach anymore, and it does he was at uh racing, and I uh I asked him, I said, mate, when you when you're in phase attack, what do you look at? He said, Well, I I try to get an idea of how hard they're folded. Right? And and simple as that. And I asked one of our Japanese tenants, I said, What do you look at? He said, I look at the backspace, I look at the defense line, I look at the spacing, I look at the attackers around me. I said, Where do you find all the time to do that? Like, so he he by by having that conversation with Owen, it gave me a appreciation of what good players can do. And then, because some players will just tell you things they want you to hear, you think they've got to say. In reality, now we've got a chance to coach that player better because now we've got to we've got to give him a focus of where he's where we should look at. And that's how you can improve you, you know, those little those little gems of of of knowledge are the ones that that make a difference to when you're coaching players. And the more you can pick those up, um, you know, I think Pep used to say, you know, you're just a thief as a coach, is just stealing ideas from everywhere. And I and it's so true. You know, you steal ideas from players and it becomes your idea, and you can use that to help, you know, and you use it, you're only stealing the to make players better for for themselves.
SPEAKER_00:I love them. I always remember when I chatted to you initially, and you said walk the floors in the gym. And I've taken that on board years ago. I just think just walk up and down in the gym when the when you're pro teams and just circulate around. You're not doing it for anything in particular, but I I picked stole that from you, and it's part of my it's so good just to be present and you're not looking to critique anything, just build those things. That was a little piece of Eddie Jones' brilliance, I thought. Not brutal. Oh wow, mate. I I've I've got a lot of value out of that particular and mate. So when you coach Suntory, what I'm I'm I'm intrigued because what you've done a lot of in your your career is you've actually gone back a lot of times to the places which you were at, Suntory. You I know you've had an ongoing relationship with Suntory in Japan. Um, what is it uh that you've done in those times that have lent the organisations wanting to have you back, you reckon, as coaches? Like you've had a m amazing journey, but you've always come back to certain spots. What is it you've left behind that makes you know the them want you back? What do you reckon?
SPEAKER_01:I think when you can you can add value and and bring a certain sort of energy, people want your back. You know, and and for Suntory it's always been about uh opening their eyes to uh things greater than Japan, you know. making sure that they're not setting themselves on standards within Japan, they're setting themselves on standards in the in the international rugby. And so being able to bring that all the time, um yeah, they want to get better. So they will want people who can open their eyes to do that. And it's always like to us it's it's always been like a family to us. Like they're really good to our family. So and it's a family company. Yeah. It's a really good relationship. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It's a lovely company on that and they they have pretty high expectations and standards that are right up there with the best in the world, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Well that it's interesting because they're going through this period now mate where as a I was talking about it to someone the other day. If you think 10 years ago in Japanese rugby every player was a university player and their whole uh goal was to join the best company they could. Not necessarily to play rugby but to get a good job. So if you went to Santauri, you know you can generally work in pretty good cities work in you wear a suit you don't have to cart cart things around you know they they were good good jobs whereas Toyota you know you you go to Toyota and and you could end up on assembly line. Like we had a we had a hooker from Honda come to Suntoria about five years ago and he was telling me about his day at Honda like he'd spent four days making this thing right four hours getting an hour off and you'd have another four hours where he's just making and then he'd get out to rugby and he of course he loved training rugby. So he didn't want to stop didn't want to stop when he got on the field had plenty of energy but now now in Japanese rugby now players at the ages like we were talking about with kids at 16 17 are thinking about being professional players. So they're not thinking about their job they're thinking about playing rugby. So those teams now have to have to remodel themselves because they're not company teams anymore. The name's still Suntory but the players who are coming through are now transient workers you know they're just there for a period of time three or four years. So how do you get that that togetherness that belonging you know which is all the stuff you talk about mate how do you get that new culture into a team and I think some teams have done it pretty well like I think Toshiba because they had uh financial problems found a way to to to be a new team and Suntory at the moment is struggling to do do that a little bit as as you know probably Toyota has struggled me a little bit and there's a few teams I think are going through that which is you know which is a great culture story.
SPEAKER_00:It's actually interesting because you talk about that's the wider societal culture has changed. Yeah. So of course if that's changing then the way you coach the stuff has got to be changing as well whatever you're coaching whatever sport.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah no you're 100 100% right. Yeah and you would have seen it multiple times over your enormous career that there's there is societal and generational shifts which do affect you as a coach right yeah well I think the probably the standout was for me was in the English Premier League like yeah you had the iconic coaches Ferguson Wegner they're all like serious hard men you know um Ferguson more working class Wegner more academic but they were they were you know and they they set themselves apart from the team a little bit you know not they stood above the team a little bit whereas the new breed of coaches like your peps um your uh Klop like they're emotionally you can see they're emotionally engaged with their teams they're you know they they ride the emotion as much as their team you see them you know they come off the field they're hugging and they're kissing you know you know it's a it's a it and I I reckon it sums up a little bit how coaching's gone you you know you don't have to be like that to be successful now but you've got to understand that that that the emotion of teams now is far different than it was before are you delivering more hugs postgame Eddie than you once I'm not a hugger mate never been a hugger the only the only thing I hug's my dog I'm not a hugger but but but but the the difference uh Ben in all seriousness now players 30 minutes after a game you don't know whether they've won or lost is that you're noticing that I reckon that's around the world everywhere now they're very very different because they they they let go they're very emotional for for a period of time and then they let go of it quickly and you just think again again how society is how quickly people move on to things you know the website they're on they're on things for 19 seconds average so they're moving quickly now and I think that's that's uh uh whereas you used to have teams you know in some teams they they you know they'd scull and they they be dirty for you know two days um I think that's gone to a large degree now and it's it's much more much more you move on to what's next. And that's probably important to remember as a coach that just because someone's laughing 30 minutes after a loss doesn't mean they don't care or anything right exactly mate exactly and that's what you've got to be careful of and it's it's even more so when you get presidents and chairman who are from a a different generation or they might be from the same generation as you but they're more detached from the team so they're still thinking about what it was like 20 or 30 years ago and they see the players and they think how can they be like that it doesn't mean they care less.
SPEAKER_00:You know it doesn't mean they care less they're just different in the way they process their their their feelings yeah that's a big piece Eddie that's a big piece now I I'd I'd I'm pretty keen to know how you process this part of you as your upbringing because after Sun Tour in Japan you went to the Brumbies and you had a very successful time there in the end but at the start it wasn't at the start your first season they finished 10th and there's a quote by you that said you're way out of your depth how how did you like for from a coaching perspective how did you deal with it like you've come back you're in a high profile role and you just you feel a little bit lost or unsure and then you guts it through and then you end up having some of the most successful times of Brumby history ultimately winning the super rugby title in 2001 first ever non-New Zealand team had to get through that that yucky the yucky bit at the start where it didn't go well.
SPEAKER_01:Ah well it was it was when I when I reflect the first year in yeah they'd come second the previous year um so they had a good team um so I didn't change much for about 10 weeks so I I let things run but you know we had a Troy Caker who was 35 at eight David Knox at 35 at 10 you know a good team that was agey so and sometimes just one year can make a difference for those sort of teams and and also there was a big change in how the breakdown was refereed like previously in the early years of Super Rugby it was like play the ball in rugby league you know there was no contest you get one over the balls like seventh and then the crusaders who did badly in the first couple of years of super rugby found a way to to stuff the ruckup um you know and and it became much more contestable um and and we couldn't cope with that because we didn't have a hard it wasn't a hard training regime it was quite a quite uh not soft but um average training regime and we and we didn't have great athletes we had some good rugby players we didn't have great athletes so I let it go and then uh about week 11 I think it was I I remember I went in and I I said right we're gonna change these boys now this is what we're gonna do from here on in um and so we used the end of the pre-season end of the sorry the season as the preseason for the next season um so I was able to sort of accept that that I didn't coach well enough um and and then be very deliberate about how we needed to change and had a really strong view and then within that so the strength and conditioning we made a huge change but the other made major change we then we worked out right how are we going to beat these Kiwi teams you know they were athletically better than us so we with a number of players Rod Cafe uh George Griegan Larkham you know some of the greats of the the the game we sat down and come came up with this you know I'm contradicting myself here this structured system of this three phase structured system and we were the most structured team and and we we were able to become the best team in Super Rugby through that. And the players loved it mate the players loved it we trained hard but then by the end by that fourth year we had a very very uh uh regimented training system we were fit we were organized we had talent and the players loved it and they had fun mate they were all in Canberra together like they could be a bit naughty in those days and they were um so they enjoyed their rugby it was a it was a really good good feeling that team and the the biggest disappointment I probably had in my rugby career was that I didn't stay there. Yeah oh really yeah oh well I reckon we could have won three or four yeah and could have challenged the crusaders supremacy in super rugby but you get offered the wallaby job you can't you can't knock it back.
SPEAKER_00:No you can't what what would you say to coaches that are going through that themselves Eddie like like it's it's a tough thing to take right like you feel like it's all on you sometimes but how did you what would you say to coaches about having that really strong view and be saying this is the way forward and obviously it's uh it's there's some innovation in there which you're not a hundred percent sure how it's gonna go how do you stay so strong on your views as a coach did you just say yeah yeah no no you've got to you've got to you've got to have a a belief within yourself and I think your knowledge of a game is important that you you see enough to say right this can work um but it's gonna take some time this can work and and you've got to engage the senior players you've got to engage the senior players and they and they've got to be part of it.
SPEAKER_01:You've got to be part of it. You've got to get that buy that's a massive part of any any strong view you've got to get those guys and girls on board right yeah yeah like we we used to have uh meetings on Monday night they'd go from maybe seven till ten o'clock and we'd be discussing the game plan every bit of the game plan and everything would be challenged like nothing would go would go on unturned over we'd look at everything and the players would 100% committed to it they'd 100% commit to that game plan and buy in it. I remember we played in two might have been 99 we played Auckland right we needed to win to make the the semifinals and we played Auckland and we had this had this 11 pattern. So we play open side come back down a short so open side halftime we're getting beaten 16 mil right old story to Eden Park you know you go there with great plans and come back with your pants down and and we ended up beating them 2016. It was unbelievable and I think three of the four four tries we scored came from the 11 pattern and that was because the players this wasn't my game plan this was our game plan. So when it wasn't working at halftime we all decided to stick at it and it came through and I think that's that's that's when you know you've got the the players in the in the right area when they when they really buy into it and they own it and they keep doing it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah that's the gold isn't it then you then you can because you're riding it together if you're you're winning and losing together right and ultimately it comes back to that point about your players are your ambassadors. Yeah so if if whomever is talking to players they're all they feel like it's theirs because you've communicated with them. Mate have you ever felt like any of this has ever come unstuck for you? Have you had any bits where you've gone nah that's I've done that poorly and like or what I'm really interested about this aspect is how you weather like mistakes because it can end some coaches and it can put them off continuing and pursuing a career in coaching.
SPEAKER_01:Have you had any where you've gone and and advice for for players that uh make mistakes and get it wrong on that side of things how to get through I've I've had two periods mate uh post wallabies in 2005 up to 2007. Yeah I didn't coach well didn't coach well and I I felt a bit lost in the game I I can remember thinking yeah it was going through that that huge change to high kicking game. Remember yeah the 2007 World Cup there was up to 90 kicks a game and I I didn't feel like I could coach that area very well. And I was almost trying to guess how to how to play because I I you know intrinsically I like to play a ball in hand game. Right. And I I felt I didn't coach well enough in that area and the big thing that saved me mate was getting this working with South Africa in 2007 and getting an understanding of the kicking game. Like again you know the best coach I ever had in kicking was Free Deprey um learning about how to play play a kicking game and then how to play a game off that kicking game which South Africa are doing brilliantly now. It's interesting South Africa have basically gone back to their game plan of 2007 now. I watch them now I think they're they look like 2007 high balls win the high ball play quickly and then when you when you're in the opposition play hard and flat at the line you know and and they're doing it brilliantly um so I went through that period and then the other period was the difficult period I I really found in my coaching was trying to change England from a kicking team to a more all court team and I wasn't able to do that very well. Yeah I I didn't do that well and then I went to Australia on the back of that and I wanted to open Australia right up. Yeah I wanted to get back to playing a bit like they're playing now but I I I was foolish in the end I was foolish because I tried to do too much in too short of time. But again you know I'd rather take those risks mate I'd rather have that uh you know as a mark against me than not having done it. Do you think that's that's the your advice to coaches around this sort of stuff is just yeah you've got to take risks as you said earlier back yourself the way you coach be yourself that that's the the premise that you keep coming back to isn't it yeah and then and then if it fails just move on and don't and don't care what people say. Like don't care what people say.
SPEAKER_00:That's that's the thing because you can you can never please everyone you can never please everyone the only person you've got to please essentially is yourself and your players how do you stay true to that because it's it's very easy to say right if and I know you you've had a an upbringing which has made you strong in this area but what do you think would be a good any good practices for coaches to weather these storms better and not care what people think I I think have if I was in a uh a normal situation like I've probably had a bit of an abnormal back background you know because the the life that my parents had was pretty tough you know so I saw my mother never hold a grudge against anyone so I think that's that's probably uh allowed me to to stay like that so I don't care if someone says something I just move on just let it go but if I was uh uh a young coach now I'd say find yourself one or two good mentors and continually talk to them about where you're at like I know even in my in the latter years I I use a guy called Neil Craig which I think did you end up speaking to him?
SPEAKER_01:No I didn't actually no and he'd be great to speak to mate and he was he was he was wonderful support mate for seven years in England just every morning we'd have coffee and just chat about the day uh you know what's he seeing uh how could I have done things better the day before what do we got to get right today and just having someone like that either with you at the team or outside the team I think is the most important thing and they're the person you listen to. You trust them uh they got your welfare at at uh at their heart um because if you listen to I I see a lot of coaches they listen to a lot of people you know they're like they're like pincushions mate you know he says this so they they press him there and he turns into that shape and he goes someone else and he's listening they go to too many people just have one or two people keep keep your keep your advice group very skinny very skinny yeah because you get you'll get you'll go in all sorts of different directions you'll keep chopping and changing yeah keep your advice group super skinny yeah what would you say to coaches without the resources to have someone in every day what would you suggest they look at amateur coaches well just if you're coaching at a club get the oldest cloak coach there if he's a good bloke if he's not a good bloke brush him if it's a good bloke uh say can you can you help me a little bit you know once a week let's catch up for a coffee and just do it like that once a week like everyone can afford a cup of coffee maybe not in Sydney now what I think five bucks a cup now well it depends what you want to get with that if you want to if you want to go oat milk it's just add on add on fire up uh that's right that's that's right and that aspect of the good bloke aspect to that is is a massive piece isn't it too like you've got to be able to resonate and get on with someone and have that personal connection too right yeah and I I reckon that's the other thing in recruiting coaches like the big thing the big thing about recruiting coaches select character ahead of cover drive as uh Justin Langer used to say select coaches character over cover drive mate uh pick their character rather than their knowledge or their their skill expertise because the character will come through and if they're a good character they'll learn um don't don't get too obsessed with having people who are really skillful really knowledgeable pick good characters yeah gee you just think you just think you know I I told you how much I admired listening to the Mike Cron how good a blake is like he is truly a good guy. Yeah you can see even the way he's talking about Australia now how much he's given to them and he's coaching the arch rivals you know and he's just a good good good coach you know they're the sort of people you you want in your coaching staff yeah yeah mate I I think that's massive isn't it it's it's a really big one um so mate what w as we sort of come to the end of this Eddie I I've I've I'd love to know if if you're in the shoes of an amateur coach these days 10 15 20 years behind where you are now what would be one piece of advice you'd give them like right off the bat if they're wanting to go as high as they can what sort of advice would you give them from your your experience in the game right so have a have a picture in your head of you know you take your child to school on the first day right and there's three teachers standing at the gate there's one teacher with kids around them talking to them there's another teacher standing there like that and there's another teacher on his phone right you want to be you as a coach you want to end up that that that coach who players want to come to so how can you be the best version of yourself work out what you're good at work out what you're really good at don't try to be someone else don't try to copy someone else work out what you can be good at work out how you can inspire players how you can light their eyes up so when they come to see you you light their eyes up and you can do that through a number of ways work out your coaching methodology work out your strengths work out your coaching methodologies and then just go a hundred percent go a hundred percent and every day's like the best day coaching you ever had mate I mate that phrase how to inspire how to light players' eyes up that's such a creative out there piece isn't it but like there's so many different that's the art of this thing isn't it how to do that but it's so true mate you you you go to any training session I remember the great uh Australian cricket captain came down to our wallaby session and he said he said I know you're going alright he said I said how can you tell you don't know anything about rugby said you go to any team and you and you if you can hear the noise and the the engagement of the players you know you got the team going and I that's a very simple rule and that's that's what the case has got to set the environment to get those players engaged wanting to be there wanting to train I love it mate and then go a hundred percent go a hundred percent every day mate don't don't leap anything every do you are you do you get exhausted at the end of days by going like do you do come home sometime because you your work ethic is amazing how do you get tired from oh I definitely get tired mate definitely get tired yeah yeah and so then you've got just got to have a routine to get yourself right like it's just like being a player you know you're not getting tired catching you're not giving it a hundred percent you know and sometimes you come off and your head's like so full of ideas or shit that wasn't good or whatever it was and sometimes there'll be a physical tiredness but you've got to work out a way to get yourself right yeah and what do you do for that? Oh I have a routine in the morning like that it's has worked pretty well for me I I get up pretty early have an hour's work like I try to get the day done um before I start coaching so I get it all the organization all the notes done uh so then then then I go and have a a gym session then I'll have a a steam bath or a sauna so I'm I'm ready to start with the team about seven o'clock and then from there on in I can give everything to the team I don't have to worry about anything else.
SPEAKER_00:So just on the time scale of that Eddie you're getting up at 4 30 working till 5 30 and then something like that.
SPEAKER_01:And then 5 30 to 6 30 doing a gym yeah and then what mate what time's bedtime uh when I'm at home my wife loves staying up late mate she's Japanese she doesn't go to bed till two so it's about midnight if I'm in camp it's a little bit earlier mate mate that's a big session isn't it going to bed at midnight then getting up at 4 30 straight into it yeah tired at home mate far out right oh Eddie the last question mate which I didn't ask you the first time round on the first uh on the first episode of this podcast um but I'm really interested to know this one because we've asked a lot of people it's this what is one thing you believe about rugby that you reckon all your peers would potentially disagree with I reckon we've absolutely stuffed up technology in rugby mate yeah we we can't decide whether we want to use technology or we we we want to use it part-time um I was watching US Open right they've got rid of all the lines now they've just got central umpire hawk and hawke's eye does everything else and it runs beautifully and and the game's suited to that right the game's suited to that in rugby we don't know what we what we want the referee to do we don't know what we want the TMA to do we've got to be really clear about right technology as in most parts of life is accelerator accelerates things how can we accelerate decision making in in rugby so the two major areas you know and I know Steve Hansen thinks the same thing make a goal line decisions like the only time a teammate can come in was goal line decisions three phases before the try score there's anything in there that's stopping a bee try come in and for red car defences otherwise let the referee do it like you know our game is an imperfect imperfect game so we can't use technology to try to make it perfect because we then we end up with this mismatch of of stoppages in games um are we checking this or not checking this and we got things that that are checked and other things that aren't checked and I I think it's causing a lot of frustration in coaches massive at international level I've spoken with probably three or four coaches over the last couple of weeks and they're all unhappy with what's going on. Like and I reckon we've just got to become really clear let's use technology yes to get our try scoring right and for red card offences and it might be something else and then for the rest let the referee do it. And if he's not good enough then the referee gets sacked and get better referees.
SPEAKER_00:Like coaches get sacked like players get sacked they should all get sacked if they don't do their job love mate you would be set you would be standing up and and and and tearing the house down on this when they have those referee reviews wouldn't you try to keep out of it mate I get I get I still get too angry as shit.
SPEAKER_01:We had a situation against Fiji right in the PNC final so they get they get two uh props in big so now they're they're down they uncontested scrum so you have to take one more off the field so for six minutes they got an extra man on the field we're complaining on the sideline there's a match commissioner there's a TMO there's a TMO for the TMA and they still can't get it right can you believe it imagine if that was happened to South Africa. Imagine that's why I need to go on Instagram mate I need to take up Russie's Instagram imagine he'd be spraying everyone and and probably have the game replay just because it's Japan it gets brushed underneath the carpet.
SPEAKER_00:Oh mate I love it I love it I can only imagine what those rooms would be like um mate I think a lot of people would agree with you particularly spectators of the games would absolutely agree with that comment though on that the technology has done too much probably in that referee side of things where the technology can be really good though right is the is the coaching side the stuff you're doing on field using it that way right but that bigger piece trying to make a perfect game from an imperfect game is always going to be tough.
SPEAKER_01:That point about Mike Cron made about your iPhone's your greatest one of your greatest coaching accessories now because you can give players feedback all the time now immediate feedback. Yeah most teams have got two coaches so one coach is going to have his iPhone filming if you haven't got if you haven't got staff particularly for amateur coaches so you can feed back to the players all the time because if they can see what they're doing well then it reinforces that behavior if they can see what they're not doing well allows them to correct it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah Mike made a really good point in that that podcast he talked about just showing the clip back to someone and they go well how do you rate yourself and they go oh probably 50 well let's try get to 800 and you didn't have to say anything coaching wise they knew because they saw it. I love it. Economy of words mate massive income Eddie before we go mate that's uh I'd just like to sum up my my three points from this interview I've got lots mate but what I'd like to do is just the three big ones I got for coaches that aspire to be coaches lessons and little tidbits from you. Number one for young coaches is you've got to take risks back yourself back the way you coach be yourself think for yourself don't necessarily copy everything everyone else does just go for it. Absolutely go for it whether that means go out and find someone to inspire you go to somewhere where someone is good and you're taking all that lesson that's the way you've got to do it if you want to aspire to be a coach. Number two is be curious but keep your advice group super skinny. I love that phrase I I think otherwise as you said you'll become a pincushion plucked in lots of different directions you've just got to ultimately back yourself in the way you want to do it and keep that really small one or two good people to to hear their advice and number three is this lovely summation of uh this work out what you're good at and your mythology then work out how to inspire and you use the phrase light players eyes up and then go 100% up every day. And the analogy you gave was three teachers at a school gate which one do you want to be the one that the the kids are all flocking to the ones with their cross arms crossed or the ones on their phone I think we would all want to be that one that the kids are flocking to. Eddie Jones, what an app Absolute pleasure, as it always is, to have a cup of coffee and a yarn with you. Best of luck for every all the rugby journeys that you're on. And I imagine you're gonna go for another 30 years, am I correct? I don't know about that, mate.
SPEAKER_01:We'll see, we'll see. At least two years, anyway. Keep in touch, mate. Good man.