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Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Sam Wykes: Building Team Culture Through People, Not Facilities. A Sunwolves Casestudy.
What if the best culture you ever built came after a 90-point loss? That’s not a stunt—it’s the backbone of our Sunwolves story, where people, not facilities, carried an underdog through brutal travel, language barriers, and constant roster churn.
We dig into a season that forced clarity. With 13 cultural backgrounds and minimal prep, we taught through images and objects, opened meetings with music, and played noughts-and-crosses to train communication and poise. We asked players to share three personal facts so the room saw humans first, jerseys second. Then we redefined success: not chasing wins we couldn’t control, but tracking meaningful improvement across four-week blocks—smaller losing margins, more tries created, defensive effort counted honestly. After a tough day at Loftus, we sang the team song anyway, then beat the Bulls weeks later in Tokyo. That wasn’t luck; it was a deliberate culture choice.
You’ll hear how leadership language shapes buy-in, why “aces in their places” prevents personality overload, and how individualized coaching can turn a senior skeptic into your strongest messenger. We talk coach self-awareness under stress—who runs to novelty, who doubles down on basics—and how blending both keeps a team stable. And we follow Sam’s journey beyond pro rugby into Polynesian youth pathways, where identity and skill development meet. When young players see role models who share their blood and story, their effort deepens and their ceiling rises.
If you lead a team in sport, business, or anywhere people perform under pressure, this conversation is a playbook: actions over slogans, rituals that lower stress, success defined by improvement, and connection that outlives the scoreboard. If this resonated, subscribe, share it with a coach or teammate, and leave a review telling us your favorite culture ritual—we’ll feature the best on a future show.
If you can SUBSCRIBE, RATE, and SHARE the show and series, you would be doing your bit to grow this show. Very appreciated. Ben
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Culture is is 100% people. That transfer energy that I that I've and it goes beyond results. It goes beyond facilities. I always feel like it's just the right people in the right places in an organization. So people's uh people will transfer their energy through, you know, values or their efforts, their behaviors. Depending on what they are, it becomes infectious into a group. And and then he said, trust me boys, we're gonna sing this song one day. We're gonna sing it. Alright? We're gonna absolutely sing this. Now I don't know when, but we will. Your body doesn't know if it's half or full. If you've got moldy blood running around you, then you're moldy. So don't ever sell yourself short on whether you think you're half full, three quarters or not.
SPEAKER_01:Welcome to Coach of Culture, podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring. I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Sam Wykes with over 100 Super Rugby caps as a player. Seven seasons at the force before heading over to Japan with both the Coca-Cola and the Panasonic teams before he joined the Mighty Sun Wolves Super Franchise, where he and I were coaching play together. And today we will actually dive into that fascinating, unique cultural experience of the shortest super rugby franchise in history and how how we got things out of it. Currently, Sam is huge into the Polynesian culture, hosting the radio shows Fresh Off the Field and the award-winning Nisian Footy Show and on TV with That Pacific Sports Show. He is across age groups, to uh teams of Tongans as the president of the New South Wales Tongan Sports Society. His mission is helping give back and grow Polynesian people through this wonderful war sport of rugby. Sam is an absolute champion, man, and is doing wonderful things in the community. Samuel, welcome to the Coaching Culture Podcast.
SPEAKER_00:Darmy, it's good to be here, mate. I appreciate the invites. Um yes, stoked to be able to dive into some of those old school memories there with the Sunwolves. It was one of the uh, you know, one of the best memories I had in my playing career is donning the Sunwolves jersey.
SPEAKER_01:Mate, well, you you were doing it at the back end of your season, which gave you, I reckon, an amazing reflective outlook on it. And I've I always loved how you approached it. So I think the listeners today will love getting your takeaways from that. Now, mate, we start with this question before we get into those little um case studies of a of an amazing uh part of history. How do you define culture?
SPEAKER_00:Culture, man, it gets thrown around a lot in uh in team sports, whether you've got a good or a bad one. But uh I think when I reflect on the teams that I've been in and meeting certain people, coaches, you know, administrators, I always feel like it's just the right people in the right places in an organization. So people's uh people will transfer their energy through you know values or their efforts, their behaviors, and depending on what they are, it becomes infectious into a group. And um recently a mate of mine, a good mate of mine, would always talk about aces in their places. So that really hit home for me as that makes a lot of sense. So whether they're playing on the field or the head coach or the team manager, I just believe if you've got the right people in the right places, you can create the culture that you want to have. So when someone else comes into your organization, whether they're a new player or someone might have a bit of a you know, a few rough edges, they come into that environment and the culture automatically hits them in the face without even them, without anyone even saying anything to them. They just know that this is what we accept, this is what we don't accept. And uh I I believe that's what's um I believe that's what makes a good culture. And it it's it's tried and tested through the good and the bad, whether you win or lose, it doesn't matter whether someone's watching them or not, those people in the right places, they just have a set of standards and values that where they just live in the middle ground. Um nothing really phases them, they just get the job done. So that's how I see it.
SPEAKER_01:I love a little phrase you said in there. People transferring energy. That's quite holistic and big, mate. How do you sort of dive into what that may look like? How do you transfer energy into a place?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I again it's it's it's you as a person. Like you're bringing your your live behaviors into an environment that's uh that you want to showcase, you know. But I I think of I think of someone like um let's go someone like uh Ed Quirk, you know, Captain, Captain the Sunwolves, you know, like I I love that bloke's energy. You know, I I think he's one of the best humans going around. Uh he tried to make things lighthearted, he worked hard. Uh he wasn't the most talented person, but he gave you everything. He made sure that that if there was rubbish on the floor, like, you know, he he would pick it up, but he'd let you know about it's your rubbish. But he'll he'd pick it up and take that over to the bin and go, hey, make sure we uh leave the place nice and tidy, you know, and but he did that consistently to for us to know that that's who Quirky is. And then he had some funny jokes as well. Um I I just think of someone like him, I think of someone like a David Pocock as well, where you could not match his training ethic. Like he lived and breathed work ethic. And then when you laced up your boots next to someone like him, you knew exactly what you got. And he wasn't talking about it, he just did it. And then I felt that from him. I was like, oh man, I love playing next to that guy. So that's how I feel like that's how you transfer energy to people. It's more like you're not telling them, it's your actions. Uh, and then that becomes infectious.
SPEAKER_01:I love that, mate. Well, Ed Quirk was the captain of that team. He he had a wonderful outlook from the outset. I remember the first meeting as coaches, we sat down with him and said, You're your captain. And he used to say this phrase, uh, coaches, I'm all in. So whatever you want me to do, I'm all in. I'm all in. And he just kept repeating that phrase. And and actually at one point, um, we had a little session, uh sort of leadership session with Quirky. And one of the points I raised to him was, but what about that language? What is that language just out of interest, say to you? And he goes, I'm I'm 100% committed. And and I I I sort of pushed back a little bit and said, Well, when I hear all in, I hear it's maybe a gamble. Like you're playing poker and you're all in. There's an element of gambling. And he dwelled on that for ages. I remember him thinking, Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, like well, you are you all in because you know this is, you know, you're a surefire shot, or you're all in and taking a risk. And he was like, Yeah, yeah. And we just threw that back and forth about the as particularly in a place like Japan where your language has to be on point because you're dealing in a foreign language.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you're not wrong. It's a good way to put it. Like you you sort of you say that, but you think you're all in. But I knew from from playing with him, he was just committed, committed to the cause. Committed to the cause. Whatever was uh whatever needed to be done, he'll put his hand up to do it.
SPEAKER_01:And would he be what you consider an ace? So an ace in their place, a guy like him, he needs to be in a position where he can have real influence, correct?
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. So personality types, you can't have um say for in a team environment, you couldn't have 15 Ed quirks in there, you wouldn't win, or you wouldn't get the job done. Like it would just not work.
SPEAKER_01:You wouldn't win.
SPEAKER_00:You wouldn't win.
SPEAKER_01:You'd have too many red cards.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you know what I mean? Like you just can't have everyone the same. So I feel like in an environment like the Sunwolves, where winning wasn't necessarily gonna happen more often than not, which it didn't, you needed someone with energy that lifted morale, that boosted morale, that's uh that that could put an arm around you and make you smile, because again, we'll go into it, like it's a very unique situation where a lot of us lived away from our families. We lived in a hotel. We traveled to Argentina, South Africa, uh, Hong Kong, Singapore. So we were living in each other's pocket. And man, if you had the wrong type of people in those environments, you could really fracture a group because of how much we lived in each other's pockets. But someone like Quirky, uh mate, he's fun in games. Um yeah, I even even you as a coach and stuff as well, came up with some really good games around making sure there was music, making sure there was a coffee club, making sure there was a book club, like all of that that goes into making sure the environment is the one that you want to belong to and be involved in. So 100% for the sun wolves, quirky was an ace in the right place there. Quirky was ace in the place.
SPEAKER_01:Well, let's dive straight into the learnings from the sunrise, Sammy, because we'll give a bit of context for those that are listening that don't potentially know what the Sun Rules was. Sunrules lasted three years into the super rugby. It was an endeavor to try bring a Japanese team into it, and it lasted three years, and then I was pretty much shut down by San Zar, essentially, and there was a lot of things working against uh out of the team's control. But do you want to just run us through what it looked like for a day-to-day? How was it different to any other team in the world? Because it's very different, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_00:It was very different. Like we think of the back then top league would run on the opposite to super rugby, the seasons. So a lot of the the like we would be finishing off our top league season, and that's why people went back to back seasons where they could go, oh, I'll play super, then I'll go play um in top league in Japan, and it was a good little um good little cash grab. We'll just call it what it is. Um and so that's why people could go back and forth, and it worked out pretty well. So, but then when you think about it from the Summulves point of view, so we finished top league, we had two weeks of pre-season in the middle of winter, still getting to know each other's names because round one was three three weeks away from top league grand final. Uh, and then there was uh that was it was like a national team, but it wasn't. So we all had to live in the one uh hotel together all season, right? All season, and then um pretty much, yeah. I like you talk about the language barrier of uh having all different coaches and translators in there. Uh I've somehow I think that it was like 13 different cultural backgrounds within our group, like Georgians, Samoans, Tongans, Fijians, Koreans, uh, Filipinos, like and Japanese. So you think of like some of our Pacific Island players, their Japanese was better than their English. So we're trying to have a broken conversation in Japan, because I couldn't speak Tongan. So I'm having a broken conversation in Japanese with another Tongan, and it's embarrassing because it's like I should actually know a bit more Tongan to be able to have this conversation, but we're going back and forth in Japanese. So uh, like that that was unique in itself, like just when you're coming up with plays, when you're coming up with because communication is such a big part of team sport, and so we're we've already we're already behind the eight ball. One, that we don't even really know each other, two, it's uh we've got a short amount of prep time, and then we've got a language barrier. So it's uh it was tough, it was unique, but absolutely loved it.
SPEAKER_01:Yep, it was tough. And and there was a whole lot of just for the bigger, wider context, we also had other constraints which were tough against us that half of our home games were played in Singapore. Oh, that's right. Singapore and Hong Kong. Yeah, so Singapore's nine-hour flight away, and that's a home game for us. So we would have to not only travel for the game, we'd have to travel and be there all week for one of our home games.
SPEAKER_00:Yep.
SPEAKER_01:We had in that year we were there, um, our travel as the Sun Wools was twice the distance of the next team. So, from a competition point of view, to make your newest, youngest, greenest team have to do more than double than the next closest teams travel list. She's a tough ask from the outset. And you're putting your weakest team with the most gruelling travel thing. It's just something completely different, right?
SPEAKER_00:Like, there's no way when I even when I was at the Western Force, like we traveled a lot, but the Sumbles, I remember we would play our home game again in Singapore, we'll come back to the hotel, quickly get changed, have a feed, then we're off to the airport because we had to go to South Africa. So like that was our like we were straight on there, we landed, had our two weeks in, and then would either uh have a uh a week off or come back uh back to Tokyo for a home game. And then if you weren't, because I wasn't contracted to a top league team at the time, I actually had to have my bye week back in Australia because I had nowhere to live. Yeah, yeah, that's right. So so so boys had to go back to like wherever they could live if they didn't have uh any accommodation in in Japan. So that was a tough time because I was actually living away from my wife and kids. So I didn't see them for like four or five months. Maybe I I I was able to drop in on a buy, but that was it. So twice in six months I think I seen them.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and and as a coach, we were the same, we moved the family over to Japan, and in five months that season, I saw the I saw the family 22 days in five months. So there was no point moving them to Japan. Exactly, exactly right. Living in that hotel, it was uh yeah, a very unique experience, mate. But what were some of the big things you took out of it culturally? Like that you that you look back on and go, gee, that was amazing how how how we managed to do that.
SPEAKER_00:From a personal point of view, it was a turning point in my career joining the Sumbals because I wasn't getting re-signed at Coke, it was a it was a crossroads where it's like, oh, I actually don't have anything out there. So I had to go into it with a different approach compared to every other year because I was like, man, I'm just living in gratitude here. Whatever happens from here will happen. So um I had to, and I was battling. I like, you know, I wasn't really enjoying my first couple of years in Japan. Culturally, it was different, you know, like just with the language barrier, my wife was missing home as well. She's of Tongan heritage, so family was a big one for her. Um, so she wasn't around family. And we had two kids. Um, uh my son was born in Japan, so being a new mum, two kids under two, like there was so much happening. And then so going into the Sun Wolves, I just said to her before I left when they moved back to Australia, just give me one more year or one more season. If it doesn't work out, I'll just come back home. Just give me this one last one just to go out with some type of bang, and we'll see what happens. And then she goes, Okay, sweet. And then so going into that Sunwolves environment, I was going in with an open mind and Philo Tier Tier, I absolutely love that man. Honestly, like it was talking about another ace in their place, yourself and Phyllor as coaches were the right coaches for that group because I saw Philo like the big Islander uncle, where I didn't want to disappoint him, like he scared the shit out of me. Like you know, his presence, hey. And so growing up as kids, like you never wanted to disappoint the uncle because you sort of felt a bit like you weren't like a man or you're a bit weak if you like were complaining about an injury or you just weren't showing up. So I was already going into that with that mentality, I can't let him down because I don't want to let an uncle down, top of thing. But he challenged me straight away. Um, because I was my confidence was a little bit down. He challenged me to say that um, hey Wax, I remember watching you play when you were at the force. Man, I love the fact that you were just you could move around and you just want your typical lock. Sort of reminded him of like he used to say, like Curtis, remember Curtis Hayu from uh May Rest in Peace from the Blues? He goes, Yeah, because of your hair like that, you just moved a bit different. But I didn't see that here in Japan for Coke, didn't see that, didn't see that same person. But you're coming up to your hundredth game, aren't you? And I was like, Oh, am I? I like I didn't realise. He goes, trust me, I'll get you to your hundred game. You give me something, I'll get you to your hundredth game. And then from there, I was just locked in with him. And then we spent so much time together on that, and I just I was very thankful for the fact that he gave me some honest feedback on how he saw me, but also gave me a carrot at the end of it to say, bro, I'll get you there. Just give me, uh just give me your roll and I'll I'll help you get there. So that was right off the back, uh, right at the start of the season.
SPEAKER_01:Mate, I think that's a really cool coaching point. Like, you talk about Philo, the head coach there as an uncle figure, it had sort of that power of that presence. And I think that's always an interesting one for coaches to remember that your players see you a certain way, and you might not even have any idea that someone's looking at you like that. And I I certainly you you saying that is new to me. Like, I wouldn't have thought you, as a very senior player coming into that group, would have looked at Philo and got like in that sort of admiration and a little bit of fear. Yeah. I wouldn't have seen it because I didn't I don't have that relationship with Philo because we're coaching together, so it's very different. So it's it's an awesome thing for a coach just to be aware that what what what you're coming across to your players can be not what you're thinking you're coming across. So you have to be a little bit delicate how you actually are like that. And when he surprised you with some of the stuff, it had a big impact on you, right? Which has lasted for a long time.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. And then I just think, yeah, when you talk about uh that transferring that energy, he could have transferred that energy in a different way and just like not giving me the time of day. But he one that showed me he he he knew me as a player before I even knew him as a player. I knew of him, but I didn't really know him at all. But he knew what I was like as a player when I was at the force, you know, as a young, young kid just having a crack uh on the field, and then he knew what I was capable of, and he had a like a plan on how he was gonna get me back to um like a little character, get into the hundredth game. Because at the end of the day, you need to be, he's not gonna give you the hundredth game. You've got to perform well and and deliver on game day. It's not gonna be a handout, but he goes, you give him you give me your awe, we'll get through it, and I'll get you to your hundredth game. So that was my little carrot, and I absolutely um I respect that man uh so much, and I'm I'm yeah, I'm very thankful that we crossed paths at a at a crucial time in my career.
SPEAKER_01:Man, I think there's a lot of a lot of golden here, mate. Like just as coaches, like that when you know just even a little bit about your players, and you talked about in you a little bit about your background at the force, and then he compared you to another player, Curtis Hyou, with the hair and all that stuff, and then he actually gave you a little bit of a created the shared goal between the two of you. Like, let's get you to 100 games. And he took a chance on that then knowing that would be a motivator for you, but just that little bit as a coach, you just you don't have to know a lot, but just that little bit goes a long way, doesn't it? That little bit of background. Um, wow, and and the fact that you're talking about it now, which is you know, seven, eight years on, is is incredible how it sticks, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely, and um we've the stuff like I I think so. We used to come up with all our line out players, me and uh myself and Phil, and we used to get try and get pretty creative, and like we've got we've got drink bottles, we've got um our phones, and we've got chairs lined up, and we were just sort of coming up with all these type of line out moves. So I learned to um I guess coach in a different way because we go, but how do we get this to our players that you know where language was a barrier? So we we were showing uh like say um uh some of I think it was it was Goo. Remember Big Goo, the front row? Yeah, Di Wang Goo. Um and you know, we had a chair as a front prop, and like we'll moving the chair forward, go so this if we move it forward, you're gonna be the front lifter. And then you're gonna and then and he would have the other chair, he'll slip that chair out, and I go, see Goo, you keep moving towards to the back because we'll fake on him, and then we'll get to the back and lift, you know. So we like just little things like that. I remember around like uh what we did together with Philor to be able to um just connect. And uh and that helped me with with coaching, that helped me with uh just really enjoying being in that environment.
SPEAKER_01:Isn't it funny that that that's almost a creativity piece, isn't it? Exactly. And you're learning to adapt because of circumstance, you've got to adapt in what you do, right? Yep, and it sticks because you have to make it stick through without just being able to take the shortcut of saying it. Yeah. But it's actually it's good you say that because it was the same with coaching too. Like when we did our presentations. I don't know if you remember the presentations that we did back then as a coaching group, we were very um planned in the way that we needed to keep it super simple, we needed to make it engaging without bogging down with content because we we knew we couldn't deliver that content uh with with lots of words, so we shortened a lot down to images and pictures. So a lot of our terminology, like the defense, was like a fire philosophy, and it was just a picture of fire rather than saying.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I remember the I remember you delivering, I think it was like the the heart around the heart, like with the ruck. Yep. And then we had our cage and stuff like that. Like it just I I I saw straight out. I used to, you know, see the map of the field on the um uh on the projector, green field, and there was just always images. There were so many pictures, and like you had a photo of the heart, you had a photo of the cage, what you how you protected, and you had a story around it. And um, and and I'll never forget because I actually struggled defensively there because you're really big on making sure from the ruck, say from the sideline, that we only needed three defenders defending that because a lot of like, and that felt wide to me. And I got really uncomfortable of like thinking, I don't, I don't think I can defend that three-meter gap here. I I needed someone a bit closer, and I was missing tackles because of my tracking and stuff like that, and you noticed that. And so I don't know if you still do that drill today, but like uh you really helped me understand how to defend with width, but with my foot patterning. So if someone does have late footwork, I can get my head to that side and still make the tackle with my head on the right side because I felt like I was on the outside and then I'd put my head on the inside and I was getting bumped off like that. But you really took the time to get me to understand uh why we were defending with so much width and how it's gonna benefit me, like you know, with with my tackle tech, you know, like getting off the line, shortening your feet, and making sure I've got my head on the right side to get back on my feet and go again. So I again I don't I don't forget those type of things around those defensive systems, like how you spent time with me to make sure, yep, you identified a problem, you looked at me, I was like, man, is this guy ever gonna get it? Because I was missing, I was missing tackles left, right, and centre in this two-week period of of camp, like getting bumped. But you took me aside after training, you put time in me, and that's what I feel like is is really good with coaches and and culture is that care factor of what we spoke about with Philo and putting time into a person.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think it's also a really interesting one, just to uh divulge you about my sort of mindset around yourself. Knowing that you're sort of one of the oldest in the team, I was very conscious that we were doing something completely different than you were used to. And to teach essentially an old dog new tricks is actually takes a lot more time, it takes a lot more selling, you have to undo everything that's gone before. So I had to be very different around the way I approach you as a way I was approached some of the younger Japanese boys because that they were pretty much like, okay, this is how we're doing it, didn't know much better, and they just did it, and they were open. Whereas you not only were learning something new like they were, but you're also having to ditch a whole lot of learned behaviours for a different system which was completely different. So I was really conscious around I had to really sell you the whole time, not just say this is what we're doing, I actually had to sell you the why of it. And it's interesting to hear that it that it stuck a little bit and it meant doing a little bit more with you more often and just keep chipping away with this is why we're doing it, all this stuff. Because I I did appreciate old dog new trooks is is hard, right? Especially when you're not as fast as you might have been years ago.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I I love it because it was like I was I was learning against I was very like you know what I'd challenge why why are we defending so wildly? I just feel like our big we're gonna get done on the inside, and then you go, no mate, you can practice it. And so you got JJ, maybe JJ Taolungi. Yep, some of the best footwork I've ever come across, and it was me one-on-one with him in close channels, and I whole after every training, and my like go again, and he was putting footwork on and go again, go again, but it was just time, time. But then the aha moment in the games came across with someone, got to me, made a dominant tackle, got on my feet. I was like, Oh, yes, I tracked him well, I got it, and it it stuck. So all that uh time and effort and all this stuff that where felt like oh man, I'm not it, I doesn't feel like I'm progressing, but eventually clicked through time in the saddle and repetition and um through good people, you know, continually pushing it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and and I think the other point from a coaching perspective here, Sammy, is that like you're also uh such an influential player in that team. I I couldn't afford as a coach to lose you as a bloke. I couldn't afford to have you go, uh, I don't really dig what he's saying. So that was another little aspect as a coach where I I need to make sure I I I keep winning you over from a coaching perspective. Because if I don't, if I haven't won you, then you're you're not sent helping spread my message as a coach through the team. So if you're against me in terms of I actually don't agree with what he's doing there, and you're sitting on that fence, then if someone else is on the fence and they sort of sidle up to you, then you may say, nah mate, I'm with you. That's that's average. So I had to put a lot more one-on-one time, particularly around you because I wanted to win you over from a co-I wanted you to be my uh evangelist of what we're doing.
SPEAKER_00:And I never thought of that. I'd never seen that. So you talk about uh Phil all like you're not seeing that type of relationship. How I would have thought, you know, my perception of him, I did not know that that's what you were doing. I thought you'd just being a coach and that's what you do. And if he doesn't get it, then you're out.
SPEAKER_01:Well, again, this yeah, I probably didn't appreciate that. But no, it's so I it's I think the coaching point is in a team, you've got all different personality types and it's ages and stage of where everyone's at. And you've just got to modify you're giving the same love to everyone, but you're giving your love differently. It's like in a family, we've got four kids. I show it differently to my son, my oldest son, to my youngest son, to my oldest daughter, to my middle daughter. It's all slightly different. The love's always there. Like the kids often say sometimes, like, that's not fair. How come they're getting that? And you go, Do you want me to treat you exactly the same as your sister? And they stop and they go, actually, no, no, no. We're let's just keep it slightly different for different people. But what what else, mate? So, like obviously, the the Sunrules had um tough schedule, you know, you're living in a hotel 24-7 for five months, you're traveling ridiculous. Uh, what you probably didn't realise is um as a coaching group, we didn't have a whole lot of say in the the squad. The school uh us as coaches didn't pick the squad, Jamie Joseph.
SPEAKER_00:No, we we we sort of uh we we picked up on it because it was just like uh yeah, people getting, I guess if you were if they went back to their normal top league team, they probably wouldn't have got their rest that they would have required. But so I think it was myself, Britzy, maybe Quirky, and a couple of monster. We were the always the consistent ones. So our chain our team changed every it was almost every three weeks, I reckon.
SPEAKER_01:So for your background, we would get um Jamie Joseph was with Japan. I was also with Japan, so I had a dual role with both teams, and he would say, Here's the squad for the next block for the next four weeks, here's the new squad. And sometimes it changed drastically, and there's guys we had no idea about, and we'd get them, and me and Bulls feelow would sit and slushy would say, Do you know anything about this guy? And we'd be like, Nope, no idea. And that was a challenge. It was like, right, I we probably have to do some training here and just see how good these guys are. Um and which is not a great way to be jumping into a super rugby competition, but um, how did you take it as a as a player's perspective when you're getting constant new guys in there? What what did what did you find around that environment?
SPEAKER_00:You know, like again, maybe maybe because we knew we the expectation of us to win wasn't there. Like we of course we wanted to compete, we're never gonna stop competing, but we just sort of we just knew we just rolled with the punches. Like, as if you complained about it, you'd complain about everything. And I've thought that was a a really really, really um, I thought amazing bit of detail around the coaches on how we started every meeting, uh, how we connected as a group, how we dealt with wins and losses. Like, I I remember filler would get up and be angry if there was no music on. So if there was a music committee and there was no music before the team meeting, he goes, Hey, where's the music group? That's a shit job. There needs to be music before every meeting. When I walk in here, I need music. So it's like he delivered the same passion, the same way for the music group that he would if you missed a tackle or you would would like for some game day feedback. So the boy, the music group would go, go, man, it's not good enough. We have to bloody get some music. So even if someone was new would come in, uh they'll go, Oh, yeah, oh, what's your favorite song? You know, and then they'll go, Oh, yeah, put that in the list. And then so, like. There was ways to connect like that. I remember before every um before every training run, uh, you know, we played naughts and crosses with the remember how we would have in the the two lines? Yes. That's still my favorite primer for a game day warm uh for a warm-up before the game. Uh and and it still teaches communication. It taught um and I always teach the kids when we played that game, everything's deliberate. So sometimes you can go as fast as you want. You think speed is the way to win that game. But after the first five people go, sometimes you have to be strategic and hold your feet and oh, there's a space up there, I'll go put my cone in that corner to get the win. Whereas some people just blinkers on, I need to go fast. So, like I used to love doing that game uh in our warm-ups. Um, I used to love all the all the other bits of this is one for you. I when you told me and we had to do a thing about get to know your per uh teammate, and we had to come up with three things and deliver something about yourself before the team meeting. That's where I found out you're an author. And you and you and you you'd you'd write you you wrote children's books, and then you your son's name was Rocket, and uh I think there was something to do with the did you eat the placenta or bury the placenta before?
SPEAKER_01:We well, I didn't need it. It stayed in the freezer a long time, but we didn't need it. No, we we buried it somewhere specifically.
SPEAKER_00:We buried it somewhere, so like I'm thinking you're just a stereotype defensive coach, and you've come up and said, Yeah, I'm an author, like, yeah, I've sold some real estate, so I've buried my placenta up there, our placenta up there. And I was just like, that's cool. Got to know something new about um someone. And then I think Emmy Schokter, quietest person in our team, he put this photo up of himself and he's part of the Royal Emperor or something like that.
SPEAKER_01:Uh that's right.
SPEAKER_00:Um, so you talk about new people coming in or environments and and stuff like that. How much stuff I don't know, like obviously I learned some stuff about rugby, but all that stuff I remembered eight years ago, like that stuck with me. Like, wow, this is such a different experience I've ever come across around how to connect with a teammate, um, with all the moving parts that we had. And to this day, that's what really solidified me. What's footy about? It's about connection.
SPEAKER_01:I think it's a testament, mate, too. Like the fact that you can remember my son's name from eight years ago, just from uh conversation we had like that. And those little things, mate, like just shows the power of that sort of stuff. And what does that do? Do you reckon? Like for me, that that that creates like just hearing it back, it's like, well, that had a little bit of that's a connection piece, but it's a quite a powerful connection piece that it that it lasts, right? It transcends what we're there doing, doesn't it? It actually reconnect creates a personal connection.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Oh, well, for me, it becomes uh that's me as a person. I'm not transactional. Like I've I've had those um look, I like like I'm not saying I love my time under Jamie Joe. I think he's I respect the man and his coaching, and I need you needed Jamie Joe in your career at some point in your time. But for me, I struggled under him. Like he broke me in the sense that like he was just so direct, and it just felt like no matter what I did, it's I just always second guess myself. So my confidence would like shh it's I'm gonna get dropped here, you never know what you're getting. Um, but I absolutely look again, I I I really respect and love that man because I needed that to really shake the cage on finding out who I was. But for me, like the other piece where I knew the best where I played my best footy, now I can reflect on it, like because I had a wide range of coaches, is the ones that we just went beyond the game. We just went where we went further beyond the game. And you know, knowing that um I had that shared experience with you, you knew that I was living away from my kids, you were living away from your kids, Phila was living away from his kids. Uh we got to speak as men, no, no, not as footy players, not as a player coach. And so I just felt like I was on the same page, and then it's like, man, I know this guy's story. He's struggling just like me when it comes to um, you know, connecting with his kids, which and his wife, which is the most important thing you can have in this world when the game's done and dusted. I just had that shared experience, and for me personally, that's what got the best out of me, and why I felt like I probably had one of my better seasons under yourself, fellow and slush.
SPEAKER_01:Well, mate, it's it's it's really cool because we as coaches actually sat down a little bit too, and because we understood the dynamic as well. We've got a big mix of people coming in here. A lot of people had never experienced this level of rugby before, like super rugby. We're up against some of the most amazing players in world rugby, and we got university players coming and not even played top league in Japan, and they're getting thrust into super rugby level. So we made a real conscious effort that like you talked about the Norton Crosses game. Part of the rationale for that is we needed deliberately to soften the environment. Like we couldn't go down the hard ass route of military style, you gotta be doing this, because the guys are already stressed because they're playing way above where they should. Like, there's no way some of these players would be picked for super rugby, they were just put there by let's see how they go. So they're already shitting themselves. So our our job as coaches was to give them confidence, and that meant for us doing things like fun stuff so they can relax a little bit, like play that Norton Cross as a start, have these introductions where you get to know about people so they actually go, Oh, okay, I I know this environment, I'm part of it. That was that was why we did it. And like the fact that you're still talking about it means it's it did land, and that group did stay tight, didn't it? Like, because mate, I'm just looking at some of the scores we had there. Like, I I always remember that first game against the hurricanes. Uh, we we lost point 83 to 17 or something like that. 83-17, and we were delighted because we got 17. And I just remember Hikaru uh Tamura was our starting 10. He hadn't played a top league game, he was straight at a university, and he was marking Bowden Barrett, and TJ Perinard were the 9-10, and he he he he was losing it. Like he's like he played university level, and now he is marking two greats. I I remember that game.
SPEAKER_00:Uh the bus, Julian Savier, prime Julian Saver. Uh Quirky's come out of the line to put a shot on him, and he's the bus has run over Quirky, and he's just done the reverse Scorpion. And I'm I'm standing next to him, like just going, oh, we're in for a tough day. We're in for a tough day. But uh hey, we came off there. And and some of those other scores, well, my hundredth game against the Lions, I think, was 96 to 7 or something like that, or 93-7.
SPEAKER_01:It was 90 94-7 was that score.
SPEAKER_00:And I got concussed in the first 20 minutes or something, so it came off. Um, but I what one one of those hidings that uh I I vague uh I remember clearly is we played the Bulls at Loftus, and we um I think we lost like 40 or 50 something points. I don't know. Was it where was that game at Loftus?
SPEAKER_01:Uh 34-21 we lost at Loftus.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, was that a oh okay? So I thought it was a bit bigger than that. But um I remember, and then so after that, was it two weeks later we versus them at Chichig? Yes. And we were so I I so after that game, like Loftus, for anyone that doesn't know Loftus is a is a very intimidated place to play rugby at. Kotoria, the Bulls, their man mountains, they sprint out of the their change room with that Afrikaans song. Uh, when they're coming out of it, we're up against it. We had a red-odd crack, and I for some reason I thought it was by 50, but when we came in, and that was off probably off the back of a long to a sort of back end of the season. We're sitting down there, like, oh man, I'm sore. I don't like uh everything's beaten, my bloody confidence, my body, everything, morale is down. Philor comes in with this smile on his face, and uh he's like, Alright boys, get up, let's sing our team song. And we're like, oh what? And you know, obviously, uh uh Slushi, I think's translating at the time and telling the Japanese, and he's like, Japanese, uh, what are we doing? Like, you know, grab a beer, grab a beer, we had a drink, he goes, All right, let's sing our team song. Can't remember what our team song was, whatever it was, but we sang it after a loss, and then he said, Trust me, boys, we're gonna sing this song one day. We're gonna sing it, all right? We're gonna absolutely sing this, and I don't know when, but we will. Um, but you had a crack out there, and we did. We beat them in um at Chichibu. I think it was a few weeks later. Yep, four weeks later. Was it four weeks later? Four weeks later. And I remember, I think I was uh I called um caught a line out, lost the line out, and so we had to defend for a bit, like towards the back end, and we just defended. And I I think you showed the clip of all of us getting off the line, chopping, chopping, chopping, getting off the line, chopping, repeat efforts in review, like how this is what good defense looks like. But I still remember the photo with uh I've got monster on the ground, and we're looking at each other, like and we're grabbing each other, like going, yeah, we won. That was one of the most amazing feelings I've had in in sport. Um, that four weeks before that, we lost at Loftus, we sang our team song, and then we then we beat them in in Japan, and that was an unreal feeling.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it was mate, it was. And and and part of the coaching aspect to that was we had to be really deliberate around how we defined success. Because with all those dynamics, we were expected to lose every game and lose by a lot every game. Just that that was the reality. So we couldn't come in angry at results. That just wasn't the case. So after those games, we'd sit there as coaches in the box and go, Right, oh, how are we gonna how are we gonna flip this? Because we can't come in and be like thing. And we I remember that game because we sat there as coaches and went, that's actually that score line's actually pretty good. Oh like you know, that's not too bad. Um, that's good. And and and I'll uh and so each game would sit there, and then Bulls was like, Right, oh, well, let's let's go. And he came up with that idea, let's let's bring the morale out because we've got a game in next week. And this is the pattern of that season, and I'll I'll I'll reflect some score line results for you because this is what we were really proud of as coaches. So we would often go away for three or four weeks on tour, that's how it is. So we had a New Zealand tour where we played the Crusaders first up with a brand new team. We lost 50 to three, and we sort of celebrated that, go, right, I meant this is our um this our standard, you know. So let's try and prove that. And I remember the next weekend we played the Highlanders and we lost 40 to 15. And we were actually really we're really happy to. We competed in that game. Yeah, we were, and that score line probably like we like we scored, you know, three tries there. How good's that? From none the week before to three tries, and we dropped there. The the last week in New Zealand, we lost 27-20 to the Chiefs, and that's because they scored uh in the last play of the game to draw. And we just thought that is success for us because we're not measuring like we lost all three games on tour. We got um we got one bonus point, but that's one bonus point more than any expectations. But what we loved as coaches is the improvement. Bang, bang, bang, bang. Another one, which is like the same thing. Three-week tour of South Africa finishing in a home game against the Blues. So we went to play the Lions and we lost 94 sevens to the Ultimate Champs the next weekend. The Stormers 52-15, and we were pumped with that for the same reason. We took an absolute hiding and then we reduced it by 40 points, and we increased by two tries, and then we come back to the last game of the season against the blues, blues, and we put eight tries on. We bleed the blues at home, yeah. And uh the boys were fizzing because we just kept as coaches, our success wasn't wins, it was improvement, and it was blocks, smaller blocks, like every four-week block, we know we're gonna get pumped first up because we've got a brand new team, and as long as we were improving on either side of the ball, we were pumped and we would be celebrating that fact. And the story of our season is that go out on tour for four weeks, pumped, better, better, potentially a win. And you're talking about that bulls game. So we won two games in that season, which was two more than anyone expected, which was a real coaching point, right? Is you've got to get that that aspect right off the success looks like again.
SPEAKER_00:We go back to Ace and their places. I don't know if any other any other coaches would have been able to handle that and the stress of that and not going into a competition where it is results-based and handle those losses and be able to again transfer, not transfer that stress onto the players. You guys were the right group for that. And I and I, man, as I said, it was it was unreal to be able to have that because if we didn't have those morale uh boosters or those score lines would have been 50, 60, there would have been 100 there for sure. Absolutely would have been if we didn't get the mood and the energy right every single time in preparation. So I absolutely love that. And for yourself, John, you know, when you reflect on that as a coach, how has that season sort of or how did that season help you or change the way you saw how you coached in different teams or moved forward in different environments?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Mate, good question. I I had a lot of learnings in that time period because as much as we talked about we kept the stress away from the players as much as we could, it was actually pretty stressful for all of us as coaches. Um, we were we all had our issues at home because you're away from home the whole time. I had issues myself. Like I had kids at home who, you know, had some some pretty rough illnesses over that time. My wife was struggling with it, and when you're away for so long, it's it weighs on you, and then you're getting frustrated with stuff and you're trying to keep it away from others. And all of us coaches had those little periods of stresses, and we got to know each other better than we normally do when you're living with people. You see that like when you're living with your fellow coaches, you see the goods, the bads, the uglies, and you get to know each other really well. So me and Slushy, me and Philo, we're really tight now because of that experience. Like you talked about um you get to speak to each other as men. We did, like, because we were going everyone had their time where they were low. Like my life of time was uh in in Canterbury playing the Crusaders that was my boy was wasn't doing so well at home, and I was struggling with that aspect. And what am I doing here? Like, and I was going through that, and it was awesome to have those boys um support because they'd had their periods of that on the road when life's on the road. One one really big one for me, we had a guy called Chris Webb who's been on the show, who you know Webb. I think he calls you ham and cheese sandwich ham and cheese, yeah. Yeah, he was wonderful for me because he did a lot of stuff around some of the mental aspects of coaching and it got me on to um some great guys that he uses. And I learned a lot about myself in that period because when you're getting pumped by 90s, you really it really challenges what you're doing. And and and one of the ones and also under pressure, under stress, where you go to. And we had some fundamental, I had some fundamental learning growth around like when I'm under pressure and we're we're trying to get these results and things, I go to we got to do something different. You know, like I go to something different. And I always remember that um he was like, Well, some of you coaches don't. Some of you coaches go, we need to go back to basics and just do the the simple things done well and get better at that. Whereas I go, we can't just do the simple things. We gotta do, you know, we've got to be different. We're we're looking at 90 points here. And so I'm my head spaces go to what unique thing can we do? Whereas bulls potentially went through, we just got to do the catch and pass, get better at tackle. So if you don't know that with your fellow coaches, what your differences are, then you might butt head. But I had that in the background where I sort of realised where I would go under pressure, and I realized where some of the other coaches would go, and then you kind of go, ah, right, okay. And that awareness about self and where you go to under pressure is a fantastic little learning to do. Um that that type of thing's really massive. And I also did it with the presentation. I talked to a guy about presentation styles and I did a little personality test, and he said, You measure in the top 1% of people that like the aesthetics, the beauty, the art of things. So you you did you do and he said, You probably go deep into um how a presentation you know looks without much detail around things, you've put a lot of thought into it. But he goes, for 99% of people when they're watching your presentations, they're gonna need a little bit more you know, guts to it. They need some stats and stuff, and you're not that, but you just gotta remember about yourself that others will, so you have to sprinkle it in there. You just can't do it your way because you're such a high percentile for that particular thing. Yeah, and I always dwelled on that and I was like, yeah, that's a good point. Some of the things I love, people other people aren't gonna love. So I'm gonna have to temper that. And that Sun Rules environment was such a good one. When um the upside is when there's no expectation, is you can actually try stuff, you can test an experiment, and you learn so quickly when something works. Like some of that stuff you're talking about, like not many teams you'd sing loudly after a game that you lose, but we could try it, and then we see the benefit, and we go, actually, this could be bloody. Like, and not many professional teams get that luxury, and we we had we had that opportunity to experiment, um, which was super cool.
SPEAKER_00:Such a good point you bring up. Like with Webby, man, I've known Webby since I was a teenager. So to connect with him again and in in that type of environment was unreal. He calls me ham cheese because he goes, Well, actually, you're nothing, you're nothing flash, but everyone needs a ham cheese. Yeah, everyone will eat a ham cheese sandwich. Like, you there's always a place for a ham cheese sandwich somewhere. So, and I was like, Yeah, it's a fair point. I I wasn't at all a flashy player or any anything good or anything special, but I just tried my best and had a crack. But even for we talk about um Webby, I remember Phil would wear no shoes to coach. So in Australian cultures, right, for the rugby cultures, um, yeah, there was like you couldn't wear thongs to team dinners, like you know, to the hotel. You couldn't wear a singlet. Like you, you know, there was all these standards and values that we thought, yeah, this is what makes a good team and it has its place. And then Webby was stressing out that Philo wouldn't wear shoes to coach or to the team meetings and he was barefoot. And then Webby was telling me the story, he approached Philo and he goes, uh, Philo, mate's uh mate, you you do you think you're sending the right message by not wearing shoes around your coaching? And he goes, mate, whether I wear shoes or not is not going to affect my ability to coach these men. Leave the coaching to me, I'll be soon. He goes, Yeah, fair enough, Philo. So I was cracking up laughing because mate, he was the like Webby was the bloke that was very strict on if you wore a singlet to Team Dinner, if you didn't wear closed shoes to Team Dinner. But after that, mate, he was so relaxed about, yeah, mate, you know what, it actually doesn't matter. So I just think you're talking about again cultures coming together, different environments. And I learned so much about South Africans, uh, Japanese, Pacific Islanders, Kiwis on how we see uh the game of footy. So I thought that was an unreal experience.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I I I think that's a cool one. And and it it's it's probably I often hear about culture of teams as they actually reflect uh the personality of the coaches, like teams. Like, and if you've got a strong coach at the top, largely that'll be the the the watered-down effect of what the environment is. And Philo not wearing shoes is a is a really good example because it was important that we weren't super strict on that stuff because man, we're up against it anyway. But look, the last thing you need when you're getting pumped by 90 points is to have all these rules and run a military style thing, which you gotta have a little bit of flex elsewhere, um, otherwise people won't enjoy it. And if you're not enjoying it and you're getting pumped by 90, you're then gonna be pumped by 120. Very shrewd. Well, well, one interesting reflection I always remember when we played the Bulls at Loftus, and we went out for a team run, uh, captain's run the day before. And I'm pretty sure the Bulls did this on purpose. They had a few non-players doing their like a little bit of fitness stuff on the field just before we went to do our captain's run. Yes, and they picked their biggest blokes, and they were huge, they were massive. I remember going, I always remember our starting front and row, walk past one of their non-playing props, and they just all turned their heads and were like, Oh, and they were they were actually scared. They were like, look at the size of this guy, and he's not even playing. And uh, I always remember that kind of that feeling in me like this isn't a normal rugby team when you're going the opposition, you're looking at them going, oh, oh my goodness, and you're scared of the non-starting plot before you've even played. It's like, right, we're in a different, we're not in we're we're Alice in Wonderland here. This is the rules go out the window, your standard rug professional rugby stuff goes out the window when you're hearing that sort of stuff.
SPEAKER_00:Well, that again, strategically, if they've done that, and then the opposition change room, and this is affects all the teams that go there, they put the cheerleaders out front of the, you know, where they warm up in front of the opposition change room out lost this as well. It's just like going that all the all the distractions to get you off your game.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, mate. So, over in all, that case study of the the Sun Wills, uh, an amazing experience. But a lot of that stuff that we talked about there today, I think coaches on uh at any level can can take a lot of that stuff, keep it fun, you know, go beyond the game, redefine success, how is important for you and where you guys are at. That's there's some real goal. And the fact that we were doing it in a professional competition, and just so for perspective on a wider piece, the Sun Rules only lasted three years, and that wasn't because of performance, because year one, we won one game, year two, two games, year three, three games, and then for every external reason, which we can't control, Sansa, sponsorship, all that stuff, it got closed down. But the Sun Rules were tracking beautifully, like one game, two games, three wins. And for me, it just highlights like the way it was approached, and that sort of this is all new, we've we're creating something new, actually worked, and we were we were improving. When you look at the improvement levels, which is what we were defining success on, it was heading in the right direction. And I think all teams at any level can take the learning from the way we approach. And I think I think we all the coaches across all the years in that Sunwalls group did a wonderful job, and including Jamie J Jamie Joe, Joseph, who helped drive it from the Japan national team side of things. I think he did it wonderfully. Absolutely wonderfully. Uh and it's a real shame because the the crowd that was getting behind the Sun Walls. I remember there was 4,000 people turning up to the stadium to watch us play when we're away, all dressed in uniform with their wolf ears and all that stuff. My kids went to the stadium and watched on the big screen. 4,000 people when you're playing away. Just phenomenal.
SPEAKER_00:Maybe 20,000 for those games at Chichaboo, like it was. And you know, they they they the best fans in the world, you know, they come off and they wanted photos, and we just got pumped by 80, and they're like they're summer, quick summer, yeah, sign on the goes to mass. You know, I thought, oh wow, this is amazing.
SPEAKER_01:And that aspect too made you really proud to play for the team and want to go hard. So yeah, everyone knew the knew the deal, and all they wanted to see was just people giving it their all, whether you were Tongan, Kiwi, Australian, South African, Japanese, playing for the Sunbulls, as long as you were given your all. And I remember that that one against the Bulls where that last bit of defense, and the fans just loved it. They were so proud. Um, and they were proud of all the games. Like they would be cheering uh when we get smacked by the hurricanes by 90 points. They were cheering the whole time. Like we score one try that day, and it's the biggest, it was just amazing. But now, mate, your your Sun Mool's days are over and your Japan and your playing experience is over, and now you're in a different role, mate. You're actually, you know, you're the president of the New South Wales uh Tonga Pacific Island Sports Association. Now, mate, how how are you finding that? And what are you taking from your playing days and into the work you're doing with some of your Pacific Island representation stuff?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, when I came back um after retiring and um thinking about what's next, that transition phase is uh it is a scary one. You know, you talk about like you've all of a sudden you're not connecting with 30 blokes anymore. You're you're not surrounded by um excellence anymore, you know. Like we talked about all that bit of coaching detail to get better, like that's all taken from you. And it's sort of like going, oh, I'm so I feel like I'm left to figure things out on my own now. Yep. And I never really understood why people went back to Club Rugby. Um, you know, older heads would go back and want to stay involved. But when I finished up, I realized, man, I I I love I love connecting with people over footy because you know, I went into a job, uh, like I had no idea what recruitment was, but it was like recruiting engineers for like um design engineers. Yeah. Because I never had a job before. And I was like, oh, someone goes, yeah, just bang the phones. And man, honestly, no disrespect to engineers out there. I was just like, ah man, it was as I'd rather watch paint dry than talking about like buddy, some some engineering sort of um intricacies that need to be done. But so I was like, I found I need to work my way back into you know footy, and I really uh um loved there was a Pacific Youth Cup that was happening, so I was going, yeah, I'll I'll coach the under-17s, put my hand up for that, and all of a sudden you end up getting left with the tag of being president because no one else wants to do it. Yeah, club footy's about. Yep. I was like, oh, so then I'm trying to find coaches, and then it was a fun experience. I recruited like guys like Camp Easy Ma'afel. You you had Kempo, yeah, he's a legend. Legend. So he came and did the under 14s. We had um Damien Fuck Funuo play for Tonga as well, John Sinisa, uh Sinisa. Um, just some ex-players that were just in Sydney, and we got together as a as a coaching group, Sateki and Benito Polotto, they've all represented um Tonga as well. And we put this this uh this little program together from under-14s to under-17s uh to play the Pacific Youth Cup. And again, that feeling of uh having a bit of knowledge, lived experience, putting it into uh some young kids and them really connecting that way because it it I I don't think too many uh club teams would have had over I would say between all the coaching stuff, about 500 professional games between us in this one little association. And so their kids were actually really like um really engaged in what we were saying because they like here in Western Sydney with Pacific Islands and what it's it's it's it's a it's rugby league. So some of the coaches that you probably get at rugby union probably don't understand how to lift in a line out or jump in a line out, scrum, clean out properly. Um so they probably haven't really been taught that. And that's probably why they didn't really like man, I don't like rugby union, it's too complicated. But once we actually spent time with them um teaching them how to jump in a line out and lift, I couldn't believe how much they enjoyed it. They got taught properly and they loved it, and they go, Oh, it's to see me get lifted. And then they would say, Oh man, he's too heavy to get lifted, there's no way. And then I'll actually get them to lift me, okay? And I'll go, bro, if you can lift me, you can lift him. And then so showed them how to jump. And they were like, Oh, bro, we lifted this guy, he's 114 kilos. So um I just thought that was uh like an amazing feeling to have. And then, yeah, we've been at it for the last four years, playing in this Pacific Youth Cup, and it's uh it's a it's an outlet just to really understand. Again, it goes beyond the game of footy. Like it's it's getting young people to connect, have something positive in their life to look forward to, understanding that's for me myself being Tongan Australian, I don't know a lot about my Tonguan culture in terms of all the all the cultural aspects of it. And so I'm learning myself being in there, and um, and all the kids that are now have mixed heritage, you know, we had some mixed um Tongan and Tongan Spanish and then Tongan Yugoslavian or something like that. And I was like, wow, how did your parents meet? You know, like to have that type of mixed heritage in in uh in your life, and they're all craving, especially with the move of where the Pacific Islands go, and especially in in rugby league, like they're craving that's that knowledge around where it all started for their family. Um, so yeah, for me that's uh that's that's where it's at at the moment. It's coming up soon, but um I think off the back of it, we've had two tours to Japan, we've had a tour to New Zealand, we've had a tour to Queensland, we've had players go overseas and um get contracts out of our little program, scholarship opportunities, or I don't know if they call them scholarships at the private schools. I don't think they like to be called scholarships, but just through networking and it's opened up. You had Ken Grover on not long ago, and he's been a massive advocate and a driver of um seeing what we're doing and helping um create new experiences because man, those boys that came back from that Japan tour when we organized it, changed their life. Absolutely changed their life to thinking what's actually out there and what's possible. So enjoying that side of the game of um yeah, again, looking beyond just the results and having. Young humans connect.
SPEAKER_01:Changing lives of what actually is possible. I love that, mate. It's like it's like what you talked about when as a player going beyond the game with shared experience, and now you're you're bringing that through your your coaching and and and this little uh initiative you're doing young people to connect. Young people, do you think young people these days crave a little bit more than just the actual game? They actually crave a little bit more this like you talk about the history of where they're from and that little connection piece. Do you think? Are you seeing that in in the age group stuff you guys are involved in?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, I'm definitely seeing that, especially with the movement of when you when you look at rugby league with Taur Samoa and and and Tonga for both the women's and the men's. Like now, when we grew up, it's I want to play for the wallabies or someone wants to play for the All Blacks or the Kangaroos or the or the Ferns, you know, the the Kiwis. You ask these kids now who they want to represent, they have no hesitation to say, but I want to play for Samoa, I want to play for Fiji, I want to play for Tonga. And then I've actually seen the because of the work that I do with ABC, like I co-host with um Tiana Benatani and Sarah Nagama. They're so influential in that space that young girls are idolizing those um their heroes like that. And traditionally, when we grew up, like the girls didn't play sport, and so they were left to do the traditional chores at home, and probably that was it. Now like through their influence, girls feel more empowered to say, I mean, I can actually do that. And their whole like their whole shape has changed. They're like they're so athletic now, like they're so skillful now. And now the dads traditionally would probably say, No, no girls are playing a contact sport. The dads are working even harder with their daughters or their nieces more so than the sons. And so now we're talking about treating you, you said you wouldn't treat them the same. The dads and the uncles now treat the girls and the boys exactly the same. No, you want if you want to play contact sport, bro, you go against the boys, and this is how you chop tackle. Boom, they're chopping. So that's um, I I I think it's special what's happening. And uh and I think yeah, the younger generation are really craving that connection piece to their culture. And if you can marry that up with the right people, again, Aces in their places, coaching the right bits of detail to help them improve even more. I think you just have a 360 scope of improving someone's um pathway.
SPEAKER_01:And and just knowing some of the coaches that you you work with in that and that little 14 to 7-year-old bracket, you've got the experience with some of those guys like Campo Mafu. They know the technical stuff, but where their excellence really is, and like I I he's one of our coaches too, and where it's beautiful is the way he delivers. Like the way he connects with people, that's the power with and that's probably the the bit for one of the biggest parts of coaching, isn't it? Is that if you can get whatever you know across well in a way that it connects, that a way it's memorable, the way it sticks, yeah, that's what good coaching is. Like anybody can just know the X's and O's and put your hands here, point your fingers to Target. That's that's the content. Um and anyone can do know the content, but the art of this beast, of this craft, is how to deliver it well. Yeah. Right and these softer skills and create the culture which that can happen.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you're not wrong, man. And he does that so well. And I just think that's yeah, again, so we have all these kids come from different, um, different, even though they're all Tongan, as in a sense of, but like different parts of Sydney and they're coming together and different schools. But uh to have them firstly connected by blood, which is already there, and you have someone, uh, then you have someone knowing how to deliver that. And then you add on top of that, someone who's had the lived experience, it's so powerful. It's so powerful that uh these kids are very blessed to have people like Campo and Sartecki and John Sinissa, and and then we've even had Mark Girard. We had Mark Girard come down and coach last year, the under 14 girls with um Latu Fafita, like you know, the Andrew Fafita's brother, like and Andrew Fafita came down with his twin brother David. So at our training session, we've had all these rock stars rock up, you know, you know, and all the parents are like, man, is that uh is that Andrew Fafita? Is that Mark Girard? No way, what are they doing here? And that's like their daughter or their nephew or whatever's playing it. So it's such a special, um, such a special space to be in. And even though sometimes you want to quit because it's all the bloody stuff, all the other stuff you don't want to deal with around compliance and registration and chasing up sponsors and stuff like that. Oh man, it's too hard. But then when you see the result of it, you go, okay, we'll do it again. We'll do it again.
SPEAKER_01:You're running a great operation, seeing it firsthand. I know how good it is, and I actually know how a lot of your players are actually coming out the other end of it is not just way better rugby players, but actually champion people too. So love what you do. I actually, that point around uh connected by blood is the start point, and then adding in that shared lived experience by some top draw people, just that combo alone. Gee, that's that's a powerful mix. And and I love that point when you can start with something as powerful as that blood connection, and if you can sell that story and actually you know put a bit of feeling and emotion why that's important, yeah. It's it's the it's the platform which everything can be built on from there. It's super powerful.
SPEAKER_00:It's powerful in a sense because I said that that thing, like our young kids craving it 100% we are, because even like if you've got you know, we get caught quarter or half or full three quarters, but we had this um uh her name's Corbin Baxter, who plays for uh the Roosters, she's the captain for the Roosters. She said in an interview uh with us around she didn't feel like because she's moldy heritage, but had no idea about her moldy heritage. And she went into the moldy camp and they asked her to lead the the Hukka, I think it was. And she goes, I I can't because I'm I'm probably not moldy enough. Uh because she's only like half, so to speak. She goes, the the cultural leader at the time of you goes, Have you got moldy blood in you? And she's like, Yeah, well, it's not uh your your body doesn't know if it's half or full. If you've got moldy blood running around you, then you're moldy. So don't ever sell yourself short on whether you think you're half full, three quarters or not. That's who you are. So I think for that sense of belonging to know that you are connected by blood, it doesn't have a thing of you're half or not. It's just nah, you you belong here, whether um you know it or don't know it, that's why you're here.
SPEAKER_01:Jesus, powerful, mate. Powerful. And just just to flick back quickly, just talking about what you're building on is with that sun rules. Like it I always remember we sort of sowed an underlying belief that we were actually in that time period building a foundation that everything would be built on after that, like creating an environment which would just become the norm. So I remember as coaches, we thought, are we leaving something behind which the next people coming through will just create think is normal? And and that's what you're doing with with this um Pacific Island group, mate. You're you're creating something which if you step out, it'll just keep going the way the way it's gone. Wonderful, mate. Hey now, Sammy, it is time for our last question, mate. And this is the question we always ask is what's one belief you have about culture that you reckon others would disagree with?
SPEAKER_00:Oh wow. Um that's a good question. Someone would disagree with culture is uh is 100% people that transfer energy that I that I've that I said right at the start, and it goes beyond results, it goes beyond facilities because there's an amount of times I don't I don't know if people agree or disagree, but I've seen how many center of excellences uh that pop up to say that the fancy new gym equipment's gonna produce your results, uh, or having you know the ice bars and all of that type of stuff, all the high performance stuff, all the GPS stuff. I just think that's uh that doesn't create a culture that just shows that you can you can paint some data and and whatever. And ultimately, when you when you go across to the Pacific and you go to Papua New Guinea and you see these kids uh playing on a surface that is gravel and still getting up, enjoying um what it's about, that comes from people. So to me, that's my biggest belief. It's it's not results and culture is is long term, culture is a legacy, culture is that how you make someone feel, not necessarily if it's going to be chalked up on a uh on a scoreboard or anything like that. So I don't know if that answer actually answers your question in terms of if if people might not believe it or not, but I just think bro, I I couldn't care whether these kids, especially now, go on and play Origin or play wherever. I care the fact that we can meet up eight years later and have a conversation and remember the time we played a Norton Crosses game before training. You know what I mean? That that to me, that that's that's what's um that that that's what it's about. That's what's building culture, that's what's building humans. So um, yeah. Couldn't care about anything else besides that.
SPEAKER_01:Mate, what a pleasure, Sammy, to chat to you today on a coaching culture podcast. If I may, I would like to just sort of sum up what I got out of it, mate. My my three key points from this conversation. Mate, number one is your phrase that people transfer energy, and you do it through behaviors, and you're bringing your live behaviors to life. And how you transfer that energy should be at the forefront of every coach's point of view. You are every interaction, every conversation, every dealing with another person, there's a transfer of energy. And when you're deliberate about what that looks like and what that leaves behind, you're on track to creating really good cultures. Number two, I loved how you said this phrase is you gotta go beyond the game. And we did that particularly in an environment at the Sun Wars where it was all about shared experience. And we remembered points about our interactions around my son's name, what I did in the past. And we often use that point to speak together as men or people. And when you go beyond just the X's and O's of the game and you talk to each other as people first, it creates lasting impressions, and that's gotta be good for culture. Not only got it, it is good for culture. And the fact that you're remembering this eight years later, these little points, is testament to that. The last one, mate, is number three how you define success for you. Now, every team, every situation, every expectation is different. So we've got to shape our expectation differently and accordingly and be deliberate around how we define success. And really important to be real about what it actually looks like. It's very easy to cut and paste what works for one team, but every team is different and every culture is different. You need to adjust yourself accordingly to the reality you're in. And when you do that, it creates real trust and belief and belonging around you and your team. Sammy Wykes, what a pleasure to have you today, brother.
SPEAKER_00:Mate, thank you so much, man. I absolutely loved uh chatting with you. I love what you do, and uh we'll continue to cross paths and hopefully we can uh help out where we can uh with anyone that needs it. And me in particular, I always need a fair bit of help. So I appreciate your time, brother.