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Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Mick Byrne : From All Blacks to Fiji. How Self Awareness Creates Culture that Lasts.
What if culture didn’t need a slogan? Mick Byrne, head coach of the Flying Fijians and former All Blacks coach, joins us to unpack a disarmingly simple idea: culture is values, standards, and beliefs lived every day. No fanfare. No buzzwords. Just behavior. From a Fijian security guard celebrating effort after a loss to rival teams singing together post‑match, Mick shows how joy and humility can power high performance without softening the competitive edge.
We dig into the tools that make this real. Mick explains why “don’t” is a coaching trap and how doing words create the right pictures in a player’s mind. He shares how to prepare for tough selection talks by literally sitting in the player’s chair, listening first, and steering away from emotion—the greatest distraction in any conversation. You’ll hear the power of “critical friends,” the gentle prompt of “time for a coffee,” and the Crusaders-inspired “stab in the belly”: honest feedback to your face, not whispers behind your back.
We also explore what separates elite environments like the All Blacks and Melbourne Storm. Meetings can be fierce, but the standard is truth, not personal shots. Disagree and commit is non‑negotiable. The focus stays on performance over outcome, even after a win, and the identity of the person remains steady—rugby is what you do, not who you are. As Mick puts it, mature coaching isn’t about weaker beliefs; it’s about more options to reach the standard, applied with consistency and respect.
If you lead teams, coach, or parent, this conversation gives you practical language, repeatable habits, and a grounded model for culture you can see and feel. Subscribe, share with a fellow coach, and tell us: what’s one behavior you’ll change this week?
If you can SUBSCRIBE, RATE, and SHARE the show and series, you would be doing your bit to grow this show. Very appreciated. Ben
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The Kumara is a sweet potato, but it doesn't walk around saying, hey, look at me, I'm a sweet potato. People, people eat it and go, Wow, that's a sweet potato. So the Kumara is a bit like culture. We don't talk about culture. If we're going to maintain any sort of dignity out of this game, we've got to we've got to understand who we are. Another thing that happens with young coaches, or especially young players, they think rugby defines them. You know, your belief doesn't get weaker. You just get you just get more options. You just came up to me and said, just need to give you a little stab in the belly. And that was to me, that was wow, that's pretty powerful.
SPEAKER_03:Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I've been herring, I've been loving this type of game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Mick Byrne. Now, Mick Byrne is a name synonymous with high performance rugby and is currently the head coach of the flying Fijians, the Fijian national team. Mick has been a professional rugby coach for 25 years and coached six international teams, including a decade with the All Blacks, winning two World Cups and pretty much every other trophy on offer. Previous to that, he has coached pro AFL for a decade, and that's Aussie Rules for you that don't live in Australia. Previous to that, he was also a pro AFL player himself with over 167 games to his name. Mick's experience is extremely high and extremely vast, and there's no better person to talk to about the nuances of culture than someone that's seen a lot of it. Mick Byrne, Bulovanaka.
SPEAKER_00:Thanks, Ben. Thanks for having me, mate. I've uh been following your podcasts and some really great comments, and I can see that uh you're making a difference, mate. So well done. Thank you, mate.
SPEAKER_03:Well, it's it's such a pleasure to have uh people like yourself with so much experience like yourself just sharing everything you got and putting your hand up and saying, yeah, let's do this. And I think that's the real joy of this sport and and the people within it. It's just such a community of sharing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I I think uh I I I I don't like talking about Michael Schumacher too much because of the tragedy, but I remember listening to him being interviewed one day, and a journo said to him when he was racing, he said to him, Do you think you're winning all the races because you've got the best car? And he threw him the keys and said, Well, you go and do it. And I just remember I remember that sort of thing was, well, it's my stuff and it's something that I'm really passionate about, I don't mind sharing it because it's my stuff, and good luck if you want to go and use it, you know. And then if you're using it, I've got to get better anyway. I'm getting better, I'm I'm always developing. So I've never been anyone to hide away from sharing what I'm doing, you know. And I think it's important that, you know, as a coach, if you share what you do, it it sort of also challenges you. Is there a is there another way? Is there a better way of doing it? And so, you know, I've always been somebody who's, you know, shared what I do and and don't care who who really takes it, you know.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I love it. And you do have a lot of stuff to share. It's almost like that teaching analogy. Like all teachers teach from the same textbook, but we all know there's a a big range of teachers out there, isn't there? Yeah, yeah, it's good good point. Yeah, no, it's it's absolutely fascinating, and it's a testament to yourself and and all coaches of your experience. Now, Mick, the first question I love to ask is how do you define culture?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's uh it's a word that gets that's been thrown up all the time. And I think culture is just for me, it's value, standards, and beliefs. You know, like if you've got your values and standards right and you get the belief right, then you know it just sort of your culture comes up. I don't use the word culture in our in our program. Um it actually goes back to in the all back. I remember Tumity Ellison and Liam Messon doing a skit on club night one night, and uh, we used to have some really good, you know, Tuesday night before we go out for dinner, we used to have club night and everyone would do something. And this night Tummati and uh Liam walked in as a couple of Māori elders, and you know, they came into the room and mate, it was just one of the funniest experiences of all time. But they talked about a fable about the old Mori fable about the Coomra. And you know, the thing is like the Coumra is a sweet potato, but it doesn't walk around saying, Hey, look at me, I'm a sweet potato. People people eat it and go, Wow, that's a sweet potato. So the Kumra is a bit like culture. We we don't we don't talk about culture. But we leave a hotel like the recent P and C and we leave the hotel and the manager comes to our manager and goes, geez, the culture of your players is enormous. So we we sort of say, let's live our values, standards, and our beliefs. And whatever that is, that's who we are. And we don't try and achieve a culture because culture changes. You can bring in one just one experienced senior player that has credibility in the way he plays rugby, but not a great leader or a great person, and suddenly your whole cultural environment can change. The way you maintain what you would deem as a culture, if you like, is by sticking to your values and standards of beliefs and not not not um swaying from that. So for me, that's that's how I sort of look at it. I say, well, you know, there was always this, let's have a cultural meeting and and let's uh let's you know let's do a workshop so we set our culture right and get our culture right, and then you recruit a player mid-year and your culture changes. So it's around whoever comes into your environment, they need to, they need to buy into your values, standards, and beliefs. And if they do that, then whatever's left over and how you operate, then other people will look in that and probably say, well, they've got a good strong culture there. You know that I'm sort of playing on words with you here, Ben, but we don't use the word culture. We just say, let's live our values and our standards and work through our beliefs. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And just on that, I think when you're saying culture changes, is a big part of the the leaders or the cult coaches particularly is to ensure that we're not changing willy-nilly, that we're actually got a vision and a target, and we we're staying on track. Is that the the biggest job of the coach?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I I think uh for me at the moment, it's probably my biggest, because I've got some great coaches, you know. Like I'm just blessed to have Aaron Major in the role. I mean a previous head coach and a very good head coach. And he comes in and he can manage the coaches and manage our program, and he's he's awesome, and he can do his job, you know, so it's not distracting from him. And then you've got Graham Jews, who's uh, you know, he's a developing Fords coach and he's he's at the Chiefs now full-time, which is awesome. Saramiah Bai's, extraordinary player that's just started his coaching career and he's growing all the time. And if for me, uh uh Rowonga was a lock for the in the 2007 uh World Cup team, and he's been coaching here on Ireland, and we're bringing him in now to create some, you know, and uh, you know, the development around his coaching, but also in our contact area and assisting in the forwards and stuff. The coaching group functions basically without me on the field. But I I'm there and I I do I have as I have aspects of the game that I keep an eye on. But the big one for me is maintaining what we set out to do. Every morning, our values and standards and beliefs are up on the screen. Uh, we review our game around them. Um, we review our lifestyle around them, we do lots of around them. So every day um we are talking about our values and standards and beliefs. And that's that's the job. You know, we set it up, and the same in businesses and other people, they go away and they go on this retreat at the beginning of the year and they set their mission statement and they set out their plans and they get a nice little booklet and it sits in the bottom drawer. You know, and the next time they pull it out is when they go on the retreat next year to revisit their mission statement, you know. I just found over the time I've been in environments that have been like that, and I just like, well, you know, if we actually live the words that we set out to do, it'd actually be pretty good. But what we know is it's it's really tough, you know, and so in the words that we're, you know, we're a um very we have a lot of faith in in the isle and a lot of faith in the team, and so a couple of Bible verses that sit really strong with us, James 1, 22, 25, talks about doing what you say, basically doing what you say. Not don't be a hearer, don't just be a hero, be a doer. And so I think that's probably one of the big secrets of success is to do what you say. So when we do our values and standards and beliefs and we put them up and we put them up on the wall, or you know, in any environment, I've been in so many different environments where you see their values and standards on the wall, then you go and watch training and they're not living, then they don't they don't live it. So for me, if we're going to spend the time and ask people to buy into something, we as the leaders, leaders being, you know, the couple of the coaches and uh the players, the leading players, we have to live it every day. So that's that's how it works.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. So that reinforcement every day, do what you say, and as a leader, you're the first example of that, everything you do. Like you're being watched, aren't you?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah, you just gotta keep continually, you gotta keep continually living it. Um, and I was I was gonna say reinforce it, but that's just another thing that is a talk, is a word, you know, like you've got to live it every day, you know, and as a lot of coaches will reinforce their values or reinforce the words, but you know, you've got to actually live it, you know, that's the challenge. And it, you know, we talk about um, you know, what does that look like? So yeah, when you when we're, you know, on and uh on and off the field, that's a challenge, you know, and there's no question. But as long as you've got some sort of values and standards that are guiding you, you you should be okay. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Well, just on that, mate, around you're in a pretty unique place now in Fiji where the culture is in general, the Fijian culture is amazing one as it is. And I've got a quote from you here, which you said, Fijian culture has grown me as a person. It's humbled me, actually. And why is that? Why, why is you're not Fijian going into a Fijian culture? How has that culture taken hold of you? And what do you mean by it's humbled you?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I think um look, I've got a little uh, you know, a little village that I I I've become part of, Sikituru, a little village there, and they look after me. Um, and you know, we weren't, we were uh, you know, I guess working class, you know, my dad had three jobs, there was five kids, and we all struggled, and you know, my clothes ended up being my brother's clothes, and my bike ended up being my brother's bike, and all that sort of stuff, you know. And we thought we were hard done by when you sort of get to other, you know, sort of you see other schools and you see other kids and they got the brand new bike and all that sort of stuff, and you know. And then you sort of come here and you you sort of go out into the village and don't have anything, you know, they just they're just getting on with life and you sort of realize, you know what, I've actually had a I've had a blessed life, you know. I was I was you know, I've had a really fortunate life and I had love in my household, you know. So, you know, my father and my mother just loved us unconditionally, you know. So having had that, and then you come here and you see how people just get on, and and you know, I think one of the things where where where I talk about it humbling me was in the first year on Ireland, you know, I lived in an apartment block before I moved in here, and we had like a security guy at the front, and uh every morning he's waving, and every morning he's you know happy and just sits in a little box every day and he's happy as all day long. And I come back and we got our asses kicked by the hurricanes um in Melbourne and uh sorry, in Wellington. And I drive back into the drive after coming back from the airport and I park my car. Coach, great game, great game, the boys were great. And I'm like, wow, you know, like I was expecting, you know, if I did that in Australia, I'd be like, get another job, Coach, get someone else, you know, they'd be like, and he was just like, no, the boys were great, we love it, we love them, you know. And I was like, wow, and I just walked off and I thought, you know, these guys are actually they genuinely just love the game, and they see the game for what it is, it's a game played by people trying really hard that sometimes it doesn't work, but we still love you, you know? Yeah, um, and I was like, wow, this is quite a humbling experience. So, you know, and the other one I I think for me was when we beat the Crusaders the first time um in um CG and I used I I I went to the press conference and I asked me how do you feel, and I said, I'm gonna use a word I've never used in professional sport. I said, It's joyous, you know, like I never thought I'd ever talk about rugby or fell violent sport being joyous, you know. But the joy that was in the crowd was just it was unbelievable, you know, and it was just it was mind-blowing. And sort of then you think, you know, this is the game. Like you get caught up with losing a game or you get caught up with a mistake on the field, which I I've always I've you know, this is one of my dark traits is you know, trying to be perfect at different things, you know, and when things don't go well, you're like, you know, what's going on, you know, but then now it's like okay, it's just a game, yeah, people are gonna make mistakes, you know. So it's sort of that's how you learn, that's how I've learned, you know, just uh you still get edgy, you still get don't get don't get me wrong, I still get edgy, I still get wound up, you know, before a game, the heart's racing and all that sort of stuff, but just the fact that the people here uh they show you that, you know, to enjoy the moments, enjoy the moments of the game, you know.
SPEAKER_03:And I love it. There's a there's a lot of like I'd say, mate, a lot of coaches that's almost like a curse trying to be perfect, get everything right, get the perfect game, which is not the reality. It's cool to hear that the environment you're in is actually helping is a reminder to you that it is just a game and to to not get so wound up and into it. And you might know this quite. I remember Steve Hansen talks a lot about this, is about we love you before you you go out to play, and we love you when you get back. And um that's certainly very rich in in in Fijian culture, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, that absolutely absolutely is. You know, they um everybody you you know, you don't actually have to to say that here. That's just it's it's the behavior, you know.
SPEAKER_03:That's right.
SPEAKER_00:It goes up to it.
SPEAKER_03:The Kuma doesn't have to say he's a sweet potato.
SPEAKER_00:No, exactly, mate. Is it just it happens, you know, and that's exactly and you live it every day. People know that as long as you're respectful and you know, but yeah, I think it's uh the people here that's certainly they certainly live that.
SPEAKER_03:Well, mate, I when you talked about that word joyous and you mentioned it in a commentary review, where the the Fijian team and the opposition were singing together on the field in beautiful melody, and you said uh this is just joyous, like the the culture in this place where two rival teams can come together in a big circle, join up and sing in beautiful harmony, like that only Polynesian cultures can, uh around a battle that they're going into, a physical battle, and it's just yeah, it's just a reminder, isn't it, about you know that there's bigger things.
SPEAKER_00:That was this year when we played Samoa in Rotoroa.
SPEAKER_02:The heart of the Maury?
SPEAKER_00:Yo, wasn't it? Yeah, exactly. It was awesome. We went and we went to Marae and we we got the history of the Mori and um they presented their puffery to us, and it was unbelievable. That started our week, and then we finished bashing the crap out of each other. Well, not me, but the players. Bashing the crap out of each other, and then arms around singing, but the crowd was unbelievable. Like, you know, the blue flags of Fiji and the blue flags of Samoa were in the stand. It was just, it was like a concert. It was like a concert that was going on out on the ground. And I remember saying after the game, this is what rugby is all, this is what rugby should be all about. There was nobody yelling abuse at the players, there was no one yelling abuse at the referee. In fact, they were laughing at errors of their own team, you know, they char hoo on an error of their own team, you know, they you know, and but it's just they sing and they enjoy, and Samoa were enjoying Fiji's playing, and the Fiji crowd were enjoying Samoa playing, and you finish the game and you look over, and you know, there's 30 guys, you know, 46 guys or 50 guys with the reserves arm around each other singing him, celebrating the day. And I was like, this is what rugby's about. You know, you can you can you can go to all those professional environments overseas and get abused by your fans after you walk off the ground and all that sort of stuff if you like. But this is the pure heart of rugby when you when you see that stuff.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. And it's it must be fascinating coming in as uh non-Fijian and like with all your experience and you have a certain way of doing things, then you you see this way, and it's completely off what you've known before, and sort of epitomizes and re-reinforces that there's no right way to this stuff. There's just your way, the way you do it, the way the your environment, your people, your history, your traditions are done. It's your way. And anyway can work. There's not just a cut and paste, you do it like this because this the all blacks do it like this, or the crusaders do it like that. There's no cut and paste, is there? It's you gotta you gotta understand what your your background is, your your experience and your history and those sort of things, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, uh it's a it's a good point. Um, you know, there's a debate around different times when you do coaching courses and it's like, you know, you want to im impose your will on a team and things like that, you know, and that and that that that's right, but I think there's an element of first understanding where your team's at. You know, if you can if you can understand where your team's at and what's needed, then you can then you can take it on board. And I think probably when I started with the Drewer, I didn't have an understanding about enough understanding about where these these guys had come from, you know, because I people had told me, oh, they're this and they're that and the staff were they've been to Olympic Olympics and they're and I sort of you know made the assumption that we were far further down the track of professionalism than we actually were. So I got really frustrated in those first few months at the Drewer and you know, it wasn't and my dark traits, you know, which which I call my dark traits, they were starting to come to the fore, you know, and um uh those those you know, you sort of identify and you come home and you're like, yeah, that wasn't good. I didn't didn't behave well today, you know.
SPEAKER_02:So But what are those dark traits, Mike? What what are some of those more examples of those?
SPEAKER_00:Sarcasm's up there at the highest point, and I I try and work on that. And and the other one is you know, closing off, you know, just shutting shutting things down and and you know, not not engaging. So, you know, and that puts a you know, that puts pressure on people around you because they can see that something's going wrong, you know. So, you know, a couple of dark traits there and identifying those and you get home and you, you know, but then you get up the next day and there's still more shit going on. So, you know, it it was really I had to really, you know, and I was lucky enough I had a couple of good men around me, Jacko being one, and another guy, Marty Hume, that would just come and have a coffee with me, you know, and say, listen, you know, shape up. So it was good, you know, and then you realise, yep, okay, and then you start, then you you go back to what you probably should have done at the start, and instead of making an assumption because people have been to the Olympics, you know, players and staff and different things that actually know what you're trying to get and know what they need to be doing. So I think that was a big learning for me, you know. So you know, and I've had a couple of moments like that, and you'd think you'd learn after a while, but did the pressure of the pressure of um of performance gets you. I I remember when I was in Scotland, Tony Gilbert was at the borders, and I was sort of venting with him one day about the frustrations I was having, and he took me up to the uh William Mollis monument at in Melrose there, and we looked down over the the valleys, you know, and he explained to me what this part of the world, you know, in the in the history is, you know, the English coming up and coming through here and destroying people's place and women and all that sort of stuff, and then the Scots, the Highlanders winning the battle and coming back down through here. So this place was basically the hub of enemies, you know, there were foreigners coming in all the time, and you need to earn, you need to earn their respect before you before you can just come in and start doing stuff. And that was a good learning for me, you know. So sit back, you know, and earn earn a bit, you know, and rather than be headstrong and just get on with stuff because I think you were talking about it before, you know, just there's a way, you know, I'm gonna come in here and I'm gonna do there's a way I'm gonna get things done. So I think they were the they're the learnings, and then but under pressure, you've got to be really careful because everyone's got some dark traits, and you know, and under pressure, real pressure, they come to the fore. And if you can identify them, you can you can you know manage them as best you can. So I think they're the they're the learnings as you go through.
SPEAKER_03:Well, would you I think it's a really important point because identifying your own dark traits, because everyone has them, particularly in coaching. There's a lovely quote which says, coaches are all good people, just arseholes under pressure. And uh I've I've heard that said, and it's probably quite true. And as much as you don't want to be, the that pressure of performance does get you. What would you what would be some of your advice to to coaches coming through that just got that thinking suspicion, they're acting in a way which they're not entirely pumped with? How do you how do you sit back and analyse that stuff, that sarcasm, that closing off, those, those kind of things that you identified about yourself? A, how do you identify them? And B, yeah, how do you go about improving on them or listening to them?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think the first one is identifying them and you know, like having an honest, you know, having honest conversations with people that you trust, but also accepting that these things not justifying it. I think you know, like you're under pressure and someone says you you cut that guy off before you finish speaking. Yeah, mate, but we just got to get on with it, you know, justifying why you do stuff and and owning it, you know. So uh there's a lot of times when you're especially a young coach and you're really strong in your belief that you try and justify some of the things you're doing instead of listening to what's being said and maybe trying to understand stuff a couple of things a couple of things I do i i is if I'm having a meeting with with somebody, I'll sit in their chair and I'll have a look at what their view is, you know. Um and I'll just sit I'll just sit in their chair and have a look around the room. What are they gonna look at? And I see there's a bit of crap over there or there's something over there, and you know, I'll just try and make where they sit as comfortable and then I understand where they might be coming from when they come into that room, you know, they're coming in to talk to me about selection. So I'm not here to justify why I didn't pick you. I'm here to find out what you're thinking. So I sit in their chair, you know, and I think, all right, he's coming in to see me. When he sits in this chair, what do you what do I think he might say? And that helps me prepare for that, and then when I come in, I let them talk, you know, and and that that way helps me rather than starting the conversation with look, mate, you need to work a little bit harder off the ball. I think your tackle tech can improve. And you know, last week you sort of, you know, this, this, and this. Yeah, well he's probably done his review, but I've got I gotta find out what he's feeling, you know. Um so you know, it's just sort of sit there and think, Well, what is what is this guy when he comes to see me wants to come and see me or I'm called him in, understand where he's coming from. So you know, the and and then you can still be you know, I've had some really honest and brutal conversations with players, and when they've left the room, you know, they've they've hugged up and they've left the room and he's like, Yeah, I get it, uh I'm I'm on I'm on board, Coach, you know, like but you know, because it's not because there is some things you've got to have serious conversations about. It's not about being warm and fuzzy. You know, people that are in the wrong and have done the wrong thing need to hear it. Otherwise this is a big challenge. It's a bit like being a parent. You know, you're a parent you're a parent first and you're a friend second. But if you're a great parent, if you end up being a great parent, you end up being a great friend. So as a coach, you need to be a coach first. And so at the end of the event of a career, a player will come back and they'll go, Oh, he was a great boat, but shit, you could get away with stuff. You know, like that that's not the the uh not the idea of a coach. You can be a great coach and still be a good friend you know, and still be friend, you know, like you don't have to be a great coach and have friends. But if you if you go out to be friends and try and be this sort of friend and keep everyone happy, you end up not being a good coach. And I think the and it's the same as a parent, you know, like if you're a really good parent and you go through some shit years, especially when your kids are like fourteen to twenty, but if you're if you're a really good parent, when you get out the other side of it, they'll say, So I'm glad I I'm glad you, you know, we did what we did, sort of thing, and they're they're they're tight with you. You know, and I think they're the they're the challenges that you can have in when you're you know, with you know, when you raise your kids from from birth and you you know you go through those first 10, 12 years, there's enough love built up there to to handle 14-year-old telling you that they hate you, you know. So you don't have to try and get them to like you as much. I look at it like that, you know, as a coach. At the end of the day, if I'm a great coach, the players will respect and you know they'll like you because you've been a good coach.
SPEAKER_03:Mate, gee, there's some absolute nuggets in there, Mick. I I I love how you talk about sitting in someone else's chair, both physically and metaphorically to begin with. I think that's quite powerful, actually, just in the chair, seeing what they the way they see the world from a physical standpoint. But I I'm even more enjoying, mate, that that parent first concept, friend second, because that parenting is coaching in a lot of way. And I I've I've actually had conversations with dad around, he said to me, uh at times there's a lot of tough love there in your youth, but the tough love was because there was love underpinning it. And that was really powerful. And then later in life, I'm a better friend with dad now than I ever was, because he's gone back and said to me, like, the reason I did this, this, and this was for these reasons. And you may not have agreed with or been able to see it at the time, but now being a lot older with kids mine, I can understand, like actually, fair play, that was bang on, a lot of respect that he didn't try to be a friend. And same with a coach. Because I think that's the other one about coaching, isn't it? Around this sort of stuff, is when you're talking about culture, a lot of people think it's a soft thing, right? Like that but it it it's it's not soft, is it? Like it's honest. It's honest, yeah, and honestly can look and can be done in a whole lot of different ways, right?
SPEAKER_00:And you struggle with it to be abusive, you don't have to be abusive, you know. Um you know, I think uh it's a couple of things when you were talking that sort of help the conversations and and one of them is getting rid of the word don't out of um out of your vocabulary because it's a protection element as a parent, you know, don't touch the fire, don't touch the boiling pot. But the doing words are what kids and players listen to. So if I say don't touch the pot, they're hearing touch the pot. You know, so they're hearing the doing word is touch. It's like you if you're if you're doing tackle technique, you know, if you say to a player, don't plant your feet, the doing word is plant the feet. So in their head they're seeing plant the feet. So it's really it's a tough conversation to have where you're trying to help people get better and take the word don't out of it so that you're giving them the answers. You're you're always giving them what you're actually what you're looking for. So you're saying um keep your feet moving through contact or you know, wrap your arms rather than just just don't lead with your shoulder, you know, because that just the picture is lead with your shoulder. So when you're having these tough conversations, as long as you're giving asking questions and giving solutions to the answers, then you can have a good, honest conversation. And it it's not easy and it's not warm and fuzzy and you don't get it right all the time. Um but it's you know, it's having them, I think, is is the tough one. And and I've got better at that over the years on still, you know, it's still one of those things that you you gotta you gotta turn up to. The hardest, hardest thing in in the job is is selections, you know, and I've got a there's a few guys we're gonna chat to over the next week around all that that haven't made our squad, you know. Um but you just gotta, you know, be upfront and honest and and go through that process.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, you don't all uh don't always get them right Is the first word we just talked about, not using it. But it it's important that you actually have the conversation rather than avoid it, right? Like an experiment, and you don't always get them right, but have them be up front, be honest, and correct later. That's that's what you'd want your players to be doing. Have a crack and then modify as you go. And it's the same with coaching, isn't it? Like the conversation part, especially around selection, is the hardest one. And I know a lot of coaches struggle with that, but have it. Just be brave enough to have it and be open and honest. And then as you go, as you get more experienced, they'll get better and easier to a degree, right?
SPEAKER_00:And and you can't, you've got to make sure that you understand where the players are coming from. Some somebody gonna get angry, some are not gonna see what you're seeing. So you you need to accept that that as part of the the process. And if somebody walks away and they're they're really angry and they're upset with you, then you know, you've got to see that as, well, firstly, it's it means something to them, but but secondly, there's a there's a couple of answers that they're looking for, you know. So And that's part of the you know, building what we talked about right at the start, you know, our values and standards and and our beliefs.
SPEAKER_03:I love the way you you just flip the tone of that, Mac, where you said people get angry, and probably as a new coach, like you can just get absorbed in that emotion where you just went a little bit deeper and you said that anger's actually showing that they they care. Like it's there's a deeper part to it. If you just get caught up as a coach on that interaction and the anger and that emotion at the front, you miss the deeper stuff, right? Which is they they care, they want to play, they they want to be selective, they want to get better. And this anger is just how they're expressing it right now because they're at this level of maturity. And and if you can teach them to how to present that better, they're gonna be a better person, be able to present it better, and ultimately get to where they want to go.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's it's a really good point. I think emotion is the greatest distraction in a conversation.
SPEAKER_03:It's emotion is the greatest distraction of the conversation.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so it takes you to places you don't want to go sometimes. You know, you you and I are going to talk about the fruit salad, and then you start, you get upset, and you start getting angry, and you know, you get, well, mate, every time we chat, there's always something. And I'm like, well, what about it, mate? You know, like what are you what are you talking about? And you go, well, you know, there's always this, or there's all and you know, the fruit fruit salad's still sitting on the table, not getting looked at. But our conversation now is around all this emotional crap that's going on. So you've got to be able to bring them back to the fruit salad, you know, just an analogy, whatever it is. It could be, it could be, you know, uh a behavior that you're not happy with, you know. Um there, you know, the player goes, Well, you know, you're always at me about something, and I'm like, well, and then if I get caught up in that emotion, then I can be starting to have discussions, and it happens in relationship, any relationship. It can happen with the the wife at home, the the children at home. It starts off, the conversation starts off about a fact, and before you know it, emotion has taken you somewhere else, and now you're now you're you're in an emotional argument or another discussion about something else. So emotion just is the greatest distraction from from the conversation. It'll take you to someplace that you sh you don't want to be and you never intended being. So you've got to be able to accept that that emotion's right, but find a way back, find a way back to what we s where we started. And if you can't, then just finish the conversation. So look, let's let's leave it at that now. Think about that, and maybe you know, tomorrow we'll come back and we'll have another we'll have another go at it, you know? But rather than getting caught up chasing this emotional roller coaster, uh I think as a young player that as a player I was poor at it, and as a young coach, I was poor at it.
SPEAKER_03:So You got you got too emotional?
SPEAKER_00:Uh got caught up in the emotion of it. You know, I mean it's an emotional game. You you know, you it's now it's an emotional game. You you carry a a lot of motivation, you carry a lot of attitude, you carry a lot of aggression to play the game, and we can build it up pretty quickly. You know, we can go from zero to a hundred better than a German shepherd. But we've got to be got to be careful, you know, when we when we're in those environments that we we maintain an ability to, well, this is not where we need to be. Whereas when I was young, I was like, I was into it. Like, if we want to go down this road, let's go down this road. Yeah, it doesn't help, you know, and you finish up a conversation and sometimes it's damaged, you know, and you don't want to be there. I know I know when I was a young coach and uh as a player, I made errors in those, in those things, you know, where you just want to either win the discussion, win the argument, or you're right, I'm wrong, you know, whatever it is. But whatever we set out to do, that's why sitting in a chair, what we're what do we want to get from this conversation? A little bit of prep on the conversation helps. Because we we don't want to, I don't want to get distracted away from helping the player get better in whatever it is we're trying to do.
SPEAKER_03:I love it. I love it. I I think it's really awesome you're talking about the young coaches and your younger self, and you said something a little bit earlier, you said younger coaches are generally stronger in their beliefs, and and you just mentioned there that they get caught up in in the emotion a lot more. And as you age, do you think your your beliefs you realize aren't as fixed as they as they were at the start?
SPEAKER_00:What is about a young coach that you get so this is the way I think um I think there's certain things that work for you as a player, there's certain attitudes that work for you as a player that you you know um you have to go out there and you were gonna get built it and it was a physical game and you know there were certain things that you did as a player that you prepared for and um but as a coach you you're not coaching players with your attitude, you're coaching players with a lot of different attitudes, you know. And sometimes as a coach, you've got a player that you you were never, you know. And as they say, sometimes you gotta you know uh literally literally not literally, um, but you know, like you punch a player on the nose and or you've got to put your arm around it. And if you know how to approach the player But as a sometimes as a young coach, you have a way of doing something, you know, and and you learn very quickly that your way with that player doesn't work, but then your way with that player works, and all of a sudden you you start to gravitate towards that guy, he's a good guy, he gets you know, he's tough, he's this guy over here, he actually could be just as good. But your way of your belief in the way it should get done doesn't resonate with him, you know, and he sort of doesn't buy into it. So as a coach, I wouldn't say you're a chameleon, but you have to be able to shift your dynamic across that way. So as a young coach, you have a set of standards or beliefs that you, you know, you need, and what you need to do is you need to grow those, and and your belief comes from as you grow older, you your actual beliefs come stronger, but they're not fixed, you know, they're not uh your belief becomes strong in that I can take that road, that road, that road, or that road, and and my belief is I'll get there. If I take that road, I'll still get to where I need to get to. So your belief doesn't get weaker, you just get you just get more options, you know, and you you grow your understanding and and your belief in your own ability to get things done is is strong because you've got more options.
SPEAKER_03:Mate, I love it. Younger coaches are generally more fixed in their beliefs as you get older, you get stronger, but not as fixed. You know, there's different ways of getting there. Yeah. That's that's powerful, mate. I love that chameleon phrase too. It's a coach's big skill set is to be able to shift your dynamic, because you're not just coaching you, you're coaching gazillion variations.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah, look, I I mean, when I played, and this is something that I struggle with as a young coach, when I played, my coach told me something, it was the gospel. I just get it, you know, and if he said, you because I put my hand up, I I made errors, you know, the coach was great. I mean, Alan Jeans was an awesome coach at Hawthorne. He was unbelievable. You know, he'd call you into his room and he you had to walk into the building, you had to walk down a corridor and into the change room, and his office was halfway down the corridor. And you'd sort of walk along, and you didn't want to when you'd played a bad game on the Saturday and you knew you you weren't great, you sort of kept your eyes straight ahead towards the change room. You didn't want to sort of look into the coach's room. And you'd be sort of you get about three or four metres past his room and you'd hear narrow, you know, because that's was my nickname, you'd hear narrow, and you're like, shh, here we go. And then you'd go you'd go back into his room, you know. But having that sort of conversation and having that understanding, you know, you know, was always I just accepted what the you know, like, yeah, no, you should have done this, this is not right, you know, that's not right, that was good. But I never questioned him, I never went I never questioned him from a point of view of, you know, what about this, or why'd you bring me off? Or I just, you know, I trusted his and that was me. But when I started coaching, I'm getting phone calls, you know, ten phone calls a night from different players, you know, why why aren't I getting a look at this or why aren't you, you know? And I'm like, wow. You know, like um there's a whole different, you know, and I wonder I was just wondering what players I played with used to ring the coach. Maybe maybe that was a fault of mine as a player, maybe I should have been more inquisitive as a player. But m my behaviour as a player dictated my early like put put players are, you know, ringing me up, like, why did you why'd you bring me off the ground? And I'm like, you know, like as a younger Because I said Yeah, because I wanted to, you know, like because I never questioned I never questioned the coaches when I played, and maybe that's that was a fault of mine as a player, and it carried into my early coaching, and then you realise, hang on, and as we talked about now, yeah, all those learnings, you know, actually I sit in the chair now, I actually these guys have got a point, they've got something, you know, there's something that's missing in the communication I've had with them, and we need to clear it up. So yeah, it was just one of those things as you as a young coach, you know, you learn.
SPEAKER_03:That's the joy of coaching, isn't it? There's just so much and it never ends. Like you're never going to be able to nail every personality type, and all there's always getting together all right, that's for sure. That's right. We we did a wonderful thing, man. I'll just raise it now because I'm on this topic, but one year for exactly this reason, we did, you know, you do those personality tests that you do and you get a colour or a dot or whatever. There's lots of versions of that. But we we had a point where we as coaches did it as well, and we had a diverse coaching group, and we then divided up and picked as well. So not just which group of players do you match? And then you're the check-in point for those. Nothing of official, but here's your seven players which are similar to you mindset-wise, character-wise, they're your responsibility for the year just to check in because there's a link there for you which you resonate or you understand their way of thinking because it's you. And that was a really powerful thing for us as a group because we had a lot of difficult guys, but a lot of those difficult guys were actually very similar to one of our coaches. So we're all I as the head coach would just say to hey mate, what's what's going on with that guy, you reckon? And he'd go, Oh, I I reckon it's this, because this is what I would have been thinking in that situation. And it was a lovely insight. Um I think it was a really good use of sort of those tool tools from a coaching, not just a playing perspective.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, I think they're they're good. You know, there are those, there's a whole range of different ones. Um I think, you know, being aware of that, and that's something that you know, you know, you you never get right, and sometimes you get really busy getting on with getting on, and you know, some of those little things get left behind, you know, and you always got to revisit it, you know. I think it's a really good point. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So, mate, when we're talking to you, you you've obviously you're a Fiji now, but you've had a huge range of experiences across your career, not just in rugby, but you've been a pro AFL, Aussie Rules, player and coach for a long time. And you've been across the world, mate, like literally across the world in the professional sporting settings. Is there any that stand out to you as teams that did their environments, their cultures really well? And there are others that you're like, what have you taken away and what would you leave behind from some of those experiences?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, I think um obviously your black environment was great, you know, it was huge. But there was a lot of growth in there as well, you know. Yes. We talked to Aaron, I talked to Aaron, um, Aaron Major, a little bit about what it was like back in those early days, you know, and he he's got a good insight from the player perspective and and also now, you know, growing into a coaching perspective and where that where the behaviors were there in those early days and then making some changes along the way and and I think the strongest the growth of that, you know, with guys like Gilbert, Smithy, Steve was awesome because he's got a massive EQ, you know, and Graham leading the program. At those times leading up to 211, there was some real good growth. And then when Steve took over in 212, you know, the growth of focusing on on us became even more important. You know, so the the inward the inward growth rather than looking at how do we beat this opposition is how do we how do we not beat ourselves, but how do we achieve what we set out to achieve. Never ever disrespecting the opposition, but understanding that what we're chasing is our best performance, you know, and and how do we do that. And so you could have a win. Um and on your Monday I remember, you know, a couple of boys used to joke, you'd see around lunchtime, they'd joke and they'd go, shit, what would happen if we lost? Because the leading was not abusive, never abusive. But it was honest, it was hard hitting. Didn't get this right, we didn't get this right, we can be better here, but we won, you know, and I think that was you know, trying to maintain something like that. Um, and I guess when you're the number one team in the world, and I think they were I think we were number one for over a hundred weeks or something at one stage. So when you're the number one team in the world, it's it's easy to have those sort of things, I guess. People are gonna say, yeah, it's easy when you're winning every game, not to worry about winning. But you know, we we did win every game in 212, but we didn't win every game after that. And going into the World Cup in 215, you know, we except for a neck roll, I think it might have been on Ireland Frank's with ten minutes to go, South African looked like they were gonna win that game. You know, we got a reversal from a South African penalty, which would have put him in front. We got a reversal and they came back and gave us a penalty for a neck roll. So we were, you know, one TMA decision away from probably getting beaten in the semi-final. So but your belief your belief in yourself and your belief in your team, you know, is is is there because all all you've been practicing for four years is you getting yourself right. Getting your performance right. And so even though you might not be winning, it's still important to to maintain that of work, to maintain that, even though you might not be winning games, stay really focused on your performance and not get caught up in, well, we just lost, and so we've got to, you know, we're gonna change our week. This week was gonna be a low a light week, but we lost, so now we're gonna smash them. You know, you can't just staying, staying the course based around your performance. I think they're really strong cultures that I got out of that environment. Yeah, I think we you talk about the positives. I think that was probably the big one of sitting in that environment from 2005 to 2015 and seeing the the evolution of leadership, the evolution of coaching, the evolution of and we all grew as people in that environment. So pretty powerful, pretty powerful year.
SPEAKER_03:How did you go, Mick? Because I know talking to Steve, he talked about this biggest growth was it wasn't so much about the X's and O's of the game, but this leadership and cultural side he got better at. And he's he is a big EQ guy, but he said that's the area where he he thinks he's got better as a as a leader. What about yourself? Did did like in that role you you're you start off as skills and and and kicking stuff? Have you grown on the other side of stuff, the the culture side and the leadership side? Is that grown in you? Is that what you came through with?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I I think um I was lucky enough, you know, Steve and I got a pretty good affinity. You know, we we're like-minded, we're good mates. And you know, he was my um my coffee buddy, you know, my guy that just goes, I think we need to have a coffee, he'd come over to me, hey son, I think we need to go and have a coffee. And you're like, okay, this is gonna be good. And uh it was good, you know, and we'd be the same, we'd be the same. So, you know, we call them critical friends, but you know, you know, you I've got a critical friend, and um you know, during that environment, if you've got somebody that you can be be your critical friend, then you can go and have those sort of hard-hitting conversations. So, you know, he'd be like, come up and you just say, Oh fun, let's just go and get a coffee. And you know so you're like, Okay, that's good. And then it's likewise, you know, there'd be other conversations back the other way, you know. So I think it's important in that way. Then I think for those conversations you you sort of grow as a person if you're having them. Like I and I think they're more important than an end-of-year review. I'm not against well, when I say I'm not against end-of-year reviews, I saw that I saw I think there has to be some sort of feedback, but it's more around the program, how how can the program get better rather than getting into individual people. And I think the individual review should be done weekly, daily, whenever you're together. You know, you should be able to have a a review process that is constant, is constant during the week, you know, like so that you've got an environment where people can sit down, have a coffee and have a chat and say, listen, I didn't really like the way you spoke to me today. Um I thought you were a little bit short. And, you know, if we can have those conversations during the day, rather than sort of getting to the end of the year and filling in a uh a multiple choice question around, you know, do you feel valued or those types of things? You know, let's let's have the conversations when they happen and when you talk about real things and you can put them to bed and and grow from it.
SPEAKER_03:And I think that's that's a lovely phrase for coaches, Mike. Have a critical friend. And that's just a lovely concept. And saving, instead of waiting all the way to the end and then doing uh an overview, doing it constantly like throughout, like it's just living it every day or every week. But I I I think it's a cool concept too. You talk about because I know Steve still does this is right, I mate. Uh about time we had a coffee. And like that well, what I always loved about that phrasing, so instead of saying I need to have a chat to you about your performance on the field today, the softening nature of something like that, like let's go have a coffee, you know what's coming, but it's it's just softening down how you do it. And there's another one which I think is really valuable, is let's go for a little walk. These little things are great little tricks for coaches, not tricks, they're good for human things as well. It makes it easier to be honest, right? Like when you're sitting down having a coffee with someone, it makes everything that comes more natural, more honest, and it's a new more neutral ground, isn't it? Like as a coach, if you say come into my office and sit over there, man, you're gonna have your defences up. But when you're going out and on a neutral ground, it's it's different, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00:But yeah, and I think you knew, but the thing, the concept of it was you knew something was coming. Right? So already, you know, if you're if you're a you know a positive person, you don't put your guard up. You're sort of ready for it, you know, because you got a crit it's a critical friend. It's not a it's not a random guy that just turns around and wants to have a go at you. And I remember back in 2002 when I I first met um well actually the second time I you know, first time I met Todddy uh Blackadder. Uh and I think with Steve and all those guys, it must have been it was obviously a crusader thing, but they had a little they had a saying stab in the belly. Um and I remember Toddy was um you know, like he you could sort of come up to someone and say, Mate, I just need to give you a little stab in the belly, which is a a positive way of being, you know, a critical friend, rather than stabbing you in the back. You know? Um and I remember I just I've never forgotten the conversation. It was out in the backfield on Murrayfield back, and you know, Toddy came up and goes, Mate, just gonna give you a little stab in the belly. Because when I was in Scotland, I was pretty fired up about how they were doing things, and I was trying to, you know, probably not do things as well as I could. And the players had a really great relationship with players, but it was a couple of coaches I was struggling with at the time, and he just came up to me and said, Mate, I just need to give you a little stab in the belly. And that was to me, that was wow, that's pretty powerful because and so what grew from there was the concept of if you know, like if you're a player, if players aren't happy about something, they'll they'll go looking for a shoulder and they'll find somebody that'll agree with them or somebody that'll empathize or s sympathize with them. Um and that's can be can be unhealthy. So like I might be sitting with a player and he goes, Oh mate, Ben's just, you know, he's off he's out of control, he was carrying on like an idiot today. And I can go two ways. I can go, yeah, mate, but that's just Ben, you know, like he does that, or he does that to everyone, or or you can say, Well mate, let's go and chat to him now about it. Let's let's go and I'll I'll come with you and um we'll just go and chat to him about it now. And it's like you can be one of you can be one of those two. You can be the guy that sits there and sympathizes and empathizes with him and and let this sort of thing fester around in the background, or you can be quite polite and say, yeah, that's you actually, yeah, but let's go and let's go and chat to him about it now, and then you can, you know, and just get on. Um and I think that's important as well to have that sort of people in your environment that are going to be like that, and we want to try and grow people, you know. And so as a coaching group, you know, part of uh, as you say, the culture, it's a cliched line, but when you actually live it, it's very powerful in disagree and commit. It's a very powerful behavior as a group of coaches. So if you can have a coaching group that disagree and commit, you're very lucky. And sometimes it's not luck because you you build it. But if you can be in a coaching group where everyone disagrees and commits, so a player will can't find a shoulder. Oh mate, I don't like what we're doing here, you know, I don't like the way we're counter-attacking, I think, counter-attack doesn't work. And, you know, and if you're the defense coach or the line out coach, you might go, Yeah, mate, I don't agree with it either. Or you can just go, oh no, it's a good point. Let's go now and let's let's let's go and chat to the coach, see what he thinks. Let's go and, you know, let's let's have a good chat to him about it and make your points there, and that that's where it's going to be really valuable to the team. And that guy's yeah, that guy's gonna go one of two ways, isn't he? He's gonna go, oh no, mate, it's all right, don't worry about it. But your coaching, your coaching group hasn't been undermined by somebody allowing a player to not happy about something come in. Just grab him and say, let's let's go and talk to the coach now. Let's let's go and sit down with him. And that's a good point you raised. Let's let's chat about it. And I think if you can have that sort of environment, then you're you're probably on your way to to getting some good growth.
SPEAKER_03:Mate, I love it. And certainly, having been around some some great coaches, there's the ability to disagree and commit regardless of the tone. Some of those morning meetings and and times I imagine the All Blacks environment was this, it gets heated, and they it's often said as robust discussions. And if you were in a fly on the wall, you'd think, geez, these guys will never talk to each other ever again with the the tone they're taking inside this meeting. But the moment that it goes right, are we going to disagree and commit? Yep, bang. And then the best coaches in the world I've noticed, as soon as they walk out that meeting room door, they're back to mates again. And it's not that they weren't, it's just that ability to be so brutally honest and stab people in the belly to their face is a common trait of some of the world's best coaches, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, a Melbourne Storm, for me, I've been lucky enough to be, you know, close to that environment since 2007, 2008. And I've been in some meetings that they've had that have been like that, you know, and you you you you sort of sit there going, geez, I don't think I could be in any other room I've ever been in in sport and have this conversation going on. And then they leave and they go out and they train the house down and the respect they have for each other because they understand in that meeting the truth has to get spoken and it's not personal, you know, it's the truth. And then they leave the meeting, as you say, you know, the coaches are get on with it and we go out and and we move on, we move forward with it. And I think that's the you know, that's a uh an indication of the successful programs where you do move on, you do do go, and you're not carrying the grudge, and you're not going out there suking about something that was said, you cop it, you move on, you know, and that is uh that is a sign of a great environment, those those types of conversations that can be had, and people accept them for what they are. They're they're conversations about our performance, about you as a rugby player, because mate, at the end of the day, rugby is what you do, not who you are. And so if we're gonna if we're gonna maintain any sort of dignity out of this game, we've got to re we've got to understand who we are. Because rugby, and this is another thing that that that happens with young coaches or especially young players, they think rugby defines them, you know. So you can win a game and come off and be a great bloke, and you can lose a game and and come off and be a shithead, you know, which you're probably you're probably somewhere in between there as a normal person, you know. And that's where you should be. When no matter win-lose, you should come off and be that normal person. But you win and you're the best bloke in the world. You're charging around, you're shouting a bar, and you're having a great time. You lose, you don't talk to anyone, you don't talk to friends, you don't talk to family, you know, and you justify it because you know we got beaten and that that means something to me, you know. Well, mate, that was a couple hours ago. It might might be time just to chill and relax a bit. So I think I I never get upset with people that are like that. I just try and help them understand, you know, like mate's not who you are, you know. Let's mate.
SPEAKER_03:I love it. I heard a wonderful quote just the other day about that. As a team, no one should know whether we've won or lost by the way we behave after a game. And I just think that's that's a cool statement because that goes back to you talking about your inward growth. We're gonna act, we're gonna work on consistency about how how we hold ourselves. It doesn't matter what the outcome there is. We want to be living our values every day, regardless of how this game goes. Yeah. It's cool.
SPEAKER_00:It's um yeah, and it's good. I think um, no, it's perfect. I'm certainly learning every day, and I'm just about to embark on a northern hemisphere tour, and we'll get challenged on there and I'll learn again, and you know, hopefully the dark traits can stay in the stay in the team room when I leave and go down to the meeting room. But I love it. I love them. I love them.
SPEAKER_03:Now, now Mick, it's it's time, it's it's it's an hour, mate. I'd like to keep it to an hour, so just to value your time, mate. And I've got one last question which I like to ask, and I'd love your opinion with all your experiences. Is there anything about culture that you agree with that you reckon your contemporaries or peers would disagree with? Hmm.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I I guess that don't talk about it. I think um I there's a lot of people I I hear, you know, talk about, you know, you gotta talk, you know, work keep keep your culture at the forefront, you know. Do I I don't know, it's it's a hard one, mate. It's you know, because I I I don't know what you know what my peers would really be in against what I think, but the one thing is we we we just continually, you know, you just continually live it every day. Um I'm not sure I'd be at you know, it's a difficult question. I'm not sure I'd be at odds with my peers on it. I think everybody is the same, it's a powerful thing. I would never say culture's not important. So I mean I think it all all coaches would believe it is. I think we just live it, we we just live the values and standards and beliefs every day. Adopt the Nike slogan, yeah, which is basically our James 1, 22, 25, you know. Just do what you say, you know, just so do what you say. And uh it's hard to do that. It's hard to do that, especially if you've got a lot to say.
SPEAKER_03:Well, there's a lesson right there, mate. Don't don't say too much, say less, do more.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I love it. McBurn, thank you very much for your time today, mate. If I may, I'd like to now just just give you my my three takeaways from what I got out of this conversation. Number one, I just love the the rephrasing of of words. At the very start, you talked about getting rid of the word don't in your language because the do is the doing word and You talk about living every day and actions first and reinforcing the behaviors you want to see. And as a coaching point, getting rid of that one word can probably change your whole mindset of not just you as a coach, but everyone that follows on your advice. Reinforce the behaviors you want to see. Do is the doing word, not don't. I think that's a lovely reminder for all coaches. Number two is this concept of identifying your dark traits. You are super honest and open about your traits, things like sarcasm, closing off, trying to be perfect. And now every coach has these dark traits. And you talked about identifying them and not justifying them, just owning them because everybody has them. It's normal, it's human to have these things. And I think the pressure of performance brings up these dark traits. And this is part of coaching. Coaching in itself is a pressure thing, and you feel it. And when that pressure comes, the dark traits come to the front. Own them, identify it, and never justify them. Embrace them and try to build as you go in getting them better. Number three is the emotion is the greatest distraction of conversation. A quote that you said, and I loved it because it's so true. When you're dealing with people, particularly in a sport, as passion as rugby, as keep bringing people back to the thing you're talking about. And a couple of ways, which I love which you mentioned on ways to do this, is to have that critical friend, someone you can rely on for honest feedback to pull you up when you're getting out of line, to make those observations you might not be able to make yourself if emotion is getting carried away. We discussed in this conversation three little concepts to actually help with that. And one from Steve Hansen about maybe it's time for a coffee, and then doing it that way and relaxing it so it makes it easier to be honest and more neutral about your opinions. Two, the concept of stabbing someone in the belly, so just telling them how it is and being able to receive that. And three, this concept of disagreeing and committing. Some of the best coaches in the world embrace this and they're prepared to be honest, let the emotion go, have the conversation, and then commit to whatever the outcome is. And I think those are wonderful things to just keep bringing it back that rugby is an emotional game, it's gonna be there. So just embrace it, come up with little ways that you can make sure it's not taking you away from the actual facts of what you're dealing with. Mick Byrne, what an absolute pleasure to get your insight around culture through all your incredible experiences throughout a lifetime of coaching.
SPEAKER_00:Just to embark on this three-week tour and to bring all that stuff back to top of mind. Um, after having a few weeks away recovering and regenerating, it's awesome timing to bring it all back to top of mind as I get in front of the batch of players and coaches for the next four weeks. So I appreciate the time, mate.