%20copy%205.png)
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Sean Graham: Youth Rugby Coaching Masterclass. A Playbook for School Rugby Success
What does a team feel like when the culture works? Players show up early. Coaches look for solutions when it rains. Conversations flow before and after practice because care and connection aren’t slogans—they’re the system. We sit down with Sean Graham, long‑time Director of Rugby at St. Joseph’s Nudgee College and founder of the Youth Rugby Coaches Forum, to unpack how he builds environments where kids can’t wait to train and coaches keep raising the bar.
Sean explains why the coach is the single biggest factor in a player’s experience and the two traits he hires for every time: ruthless work ethic and a growth mindset. He shares the early signs a program is healthy, from engaged warm‑ups to players repeating the week’s themes during a pre‑game knee huddle. We dive into practical tools you can use tomorrow—specific individual feedback that names what “good” looks like, feed forward questions that grow decision‑makers, and a rough five‑to‑one praise ratio that keeps the standard in sight without sugarcoating. You’ll also hear how he aligns parents with selection messages to avoid mixed signals in the car ride home.
Beyond tactics, Sean opens up about accountability and presence: intervening early when coaching fit is off, pairing coaches for age and temperament, and prioritizing non‑negotiables that scale across 39 teams. He makes a compelling case that winning can hide flaws, while defeat reveals the next one‑percent improvement. That mindset fuels his forum’s mission—sharing the art of coaching so the game becomes safer, smarter, and more connected. If you want a team that trains with intent and leaders who model can‑do standards, this conversation gives you the playbook and the questions.
If this resonates, follow the show, share it with a coaching friend, and leave a review with your top takeaway—we read every one.
If you can SUBSCRIBE, RATE, and SHARE the show and series, you would be doing your bit to grow this show. Very appreciated. Ben
To subscribe to the newsletter or to get a copy of the book, jump onto:
www.coachingculture.com.au
Share this show with your mates, rugby, coaches, leaders! Dont be shy.
We try to steal time at training, whether it's before or after training, throughout training, to connect with our players. That experience that the player's going to have in that season comes down to the coach. The coach will have the number one contributing factor. If you're excited as a coach that training could be cancelled, then that we've got a problem with the culture. How do you know if if you've got something cool going on in your team when you've got like three or four players just going, bang, I know what you're going to talk about? If you're willing to do the work and you're willing to be challenged and you and you're curious, then pretty much anything else is possible.
SPEAKER_01:Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Sean Graham, director of rugby for the last 11 years at the legendary St. Joseph's Nudgy College in Brisbane, the powerhouse school for over 100 years. Which has had 46 premierships and one of the leading providers of wallabies nationwide. Most recently, they've just completed the four-peak. 2025 was the most points scored by a GPS school in a season. Dawn is also found and director of the Epic Youth Rugby Coaches Forum, which is one of the very best organized and resourced coaching forums in the world. In a previous life, he organized music festivals where he probably developed this amazing ability to read the heartbeat of any group of people he's with. Sean Graham, welcome to the Coaching Culture Podcast. Thanks for having me, Ben. What a pleas a pleasure. And the first question that I'm going to ask you is how do you define culture?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, wow, I'm just trying to digest that introduction. I was I'm flattered.
SPEAKER_01:I should caveat that um the the the festival started by your own love of actually playing in in the band, right? And by organizing the festival mean you got front stage, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, look, in a roundabout way. I think that that was part of the motive. Look, bringing people together, let's let's let's stick with that narrative. Look, let's yeah, let's talk about culture. Wow. It's a huge word, isn't it? For some reason, my mind keeps going down this path of care and connection. And I don't know if it's because they both start with C and it it it lines up nicely with the word culture, but I think about care, like if you genuinely care about the community that you're in, your club, your school, your province, your country, if you've got genuine care, then I feel like people go above and beyond in their roles. And that's that's not just the players, like that's coaches, administrators, support staff, you know, and that's really in any environment, not just obviously my my world's a schoolboy rugby program. And if I'm around people that have genuine care for where they are, that's a real good start. The other part there is connection. Like we we've had this big push this year around being absolutely ruthless in our pursuit for connection, relentless connectors, we talk about. And so we try to steal time at training, whether it's before or after training, throughout training, to connect with our players and also connect with our staff too. And that connection piece, if you establish really strong relationships, there's trust there, there's respect there. And again, genuinely I feel like that puts you in good stead to having a really cool environment or culture, if we want to use that word.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I love that phrase, mate. But like when there's genuine care, people go above and beyond their roles. Like what what have you got any examples of of where that's played out with with your crew? People going above and beyond just what's required?
SPEAKER_00:Well, like an easy one to think about is like when people are turning up for training. So if you've got coaches that are down there early because they're keen to just catch up, have a chat, get things set up, talk more about the session, that's a good sign, isn't it? That's a really good marker. Even with players, like obviously our environment, we predominantly train after school. If you've got kids that are getting changed, having a quick bite to eat, and getting down to the training field early, intentionally early, because they just want to get down there because they're excited about practice. Well, again, that's a that's a pretty good sign that you've created something that people want to be a part of.
SPEAKER_01:How do how do you kids that? Has it always been there? Or have you had to work on that aspect?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's a good question. I think the connection piece, when you do, when I do surveys and sort of reviews with players at the end of the season, something that I've found over the years is that the one consistent that players always talk about is relationships. And you know, you hear this stuff all the time, don't you, around players want to know how much you care before they care how much you know, and all these things around the relationship and they want to feel like they're a part of something. So if a player feels like they belong, like genuinely feels like they belong, they're in a really safe environment, then that's when real growth can happen, I believe. So they've got to feel like there's an environment that they want to be a part of. And and you know, it's as I said, it's safe and uh And that's that's largely to do with the coaches, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01:Coaches are the first leaders of that. Like, do you put it down to that or the because you run the bigger program. How many teams do you have at at St. Joseph?
SPEAKER_00:You've got an absolute truckload of players and teams like this year we had 814 players across 39 teams. If you do the numbers on that, we could have more than 39 teams. The challenge is is obviously getting fixtures each week. So we we kind of cap the teams at about 39 each year, 39 to 40 teams we we put out each year. And I I do believe it starts with the coach. Like the biggest influence a player you can have on a on a player's experience is the coach and the in the influence of the coach. There's no doubt about it. So you can get external coaches or specialist coaches coming in and doing a session here and there. As the director, I can come in and and do a one-off session or some spot coaching, but ultimately that experience that the player's going to have in that season comes down to the coach. The coach will have the number one contributing factor to that experience of the athlete. I strongly believe that. And like the boys will say, Oh, I really loved the team and you know, I loved playing with my mates. There was a really good feel amongst the group, but the coach is responsible for that. He's responsible for bringing that team together and creating that environment. And so for me, in my role, I've got nearly 100 coaches that I employ in this in the program. So, how do I make sure I get to the players? It's often through the coaches. So, how am I supporting the coaches to make sure that they're providing the best possible experience for their players?
SPEAKER_01:May that it's it's quite refreshing to hear because it puts a lot of onus on the coach, isn't it? Sometimes, and particularly in schoolboy stuff and and schoolgirl, is some of your coaches no doubt will be required to. So, how how do you instill that sort of care that you talk about that a coach that's having to do a role to fill up a requirement, how do you get them to care so much that they are responsible for that feeling amongst the team and that experience the players are having?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's a good question. I I think firstly you do inherit some staff, and then also the ones that you choose, you've got to be really selective and you've got to be ruthless in your appointment of coaches, I believe. You've got to know that you I look for two things. I look for a work ethic, and then I look so that's that's a big one, and then I look for young people and and coaches that have a growth mindset. So if you if you're willing to do the work and you're willing to be challenged and you and you're curious, then pretty much anything else is possible, I think. So you know, to go back to your question around that care, like so the first thing that's critical, I believe, is your coach appointments. So who's coaching who? Some coaches are suited for different age groups, and then who are they coaching with? So we have two coaches on every team. So who they partner up with is really important. And you know, you you can look at an any number of things. Obviously, you might look at forward specialist, back specialist, good cop, bad cop if you want to use those terms. Yeah, and and you know, some people are just better suited for working with like our program runs from our under 11s through to our opens who are 18. So there's a bit of diversity in those age groups. And then there's an accountability piece. So you can't leave things for chance as a director like me in the program. If I can sense that something's not right, there's no point in me and waiting till the end of the season, sitting down with coaches, having a review and talking about something that I knew was a problem, you know, right from the start. So you've got to be comfortable, you know, leaning into some of those uncomfortable conversations. And yeah, because at the end of the day, if if you can forecast something's not going to be right, well, you've got to you've got the potential to intervene, then you have to. And that's what I think I've done over the years is being really present. So being really present around training sessions in particular, and just reading the room. So listening to the players, like the players know. The players know. If it's a good environment, you just ask them little questions. A question that I love to ask my players is, are you excited about training this afternoon? And that I think there's a little bit in that question. Like, yeah, if you're excited, I think it's not just because you know, you talk about, oh, we want training to be fun and engaging, and um, you know, the players want to feel like the coach cares and you know, they're they they care about you as a person, not just the player, and all those things. But if you just ask that one question, are you excited about training? Oh, yeah, I can't wait, I'm pumped for training this afternoon, it's like, yep, that that team is sweet. If if the coach and the and the team sort of like not that pumped and it's a training's turning into a bit of a grind, a bit of a punish, then that's where you sort of need to start asking some questions and looking a little bit deeper as to what's going on.
SPEAKER_01:Because that rubs off, doesn't it? That if you're asking a coach you're excited about training this afternoon, and the answer's, oh yeah, no, yeah, we'll get through it, or something to that effect. Because the coach is the top of the waterfall, right? That that sentiment, that feeling, that level of almost care around the enjoyment washes down over the entire team underneath, right?
SPEAKER_00:100%. Absolutely. Like, you know, you spoke about like the culture piece and how do you know if it's if it's working, if you want to use that word, or or if it things are going well. I reckon, like, if you think about this, I've seen in some environments where it starts raining, for example, in the afternoon, just before training, and coaches are going, training might be off this afternoon. You think, if you're excited as a coach that training could be cancelled, then that we we've got a problem with the culture. Whereas if you've got a team around you where it's like they're coming in to me going, Hey, hey, Sean, do you reckon they're gonna close the fields this afternoon? What do you reckon we can do? And what are our what are our options here?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's a very different tone, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00:Massively. Yeah. What like it's can do, you know, like yeah, I was thinking about another example with this, you know, in in our other programs where, like, as an example, and you sort of get it with the school stuff. Like, so the first few weeks of of a term, for example, you're into your pre-season and there might be like a bit few disruptions, like there's public holidays, parent-teacher interviews. And so the easy option with that is to go, you know what, it's just gonna be a bit messy. Let's just get the preseason going in week two or three. Let's just leave week one, it's a bit of a mess. Week two is sort of we'll get going in week three. That's cool, but that's a shortcut. That's the easy option. If you if you want to establish standards and about a culture of like we are, we are not cutting corners, like, you know, that's a bit of a mentor of ours. I we talk a lot about like we do the work, we don't cut corners, and and that's got to come from the top down. So for me, I'm looking at opportunities on when we can train. Now, that might may mean that they're training at different times, a morning instead of an afternoon, but I look at that as an opportunity where my opposition potentially it hasn't got going yet, and we might be two or three sessions ahead because we found opportunities to train.
SPEAKER_01:Love that, mate. It's it's a mindset, isn't it? Like it's that it's that growth mindset you talked about that you were looking for, along with the work ethic, that are two big drivers for you. But you want that in your coaches, right? Like searching for that. How can we do it better with this constraint?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, yeah, looking for a yeah, like and and not it can't be, it's got to be genuine too. Like you can people can pretend, and and look, I know there's gonna be times, you know, like people are juggling lots in their life. And I understand I've the other thing I've got to be is realistic. When I've got a program of nearly a hundred coaches, I've got some coaches who are ex-professional coaches where this is sort of their job, you know, they might teach a little bit, but the rugby coaching is a big part of what they do. And then I've also got like senior members of staff at the school who have a lot going on in their life, and rugby coaching is a small part of that. So I can't have the same expectations. So I need to focus on the things that I guess you might call the non-negotiables. So what do I what do I just demand from any coach? And I think that comes back to their care. Again, going back to that word, like they've got to care still, even if they're, you know, I don't expect them to have like this crazy session plan where, you know, every minute of their session's planned out, but they've got to have some level of care. Like they've got to be there on time. The boys have got to sh know that they are still committed to this role as the coach. And the boys will suss that out straight away. They'll know if if if if the teacher or the coach or whoever it is is not really in it. Boys and girls, everyone can sense that. They can see it in your body language, they can see it in the way you're interacting with the players. You know, are you, do you care and are you connecting? And then also like just the engagement factor. I can see it. I can walk past training. Is that what's the engagement look like? The other stuff I don't even like, we can talk about the X's and O's and, you know, like what does training look like? But if we're getting down to my seventh and eighth, 15, like what are those boys and what does that experience look like for them? Like, don't get me wrong, those boys still love their rugby. They still want an experience that they can get excited for. Um, but it, you know, it may not be that it's going to be as, as I mentioned, like the the the routine and the structure of some of the other sessions, but certainly there's that care there and there's the investment and engagement.
SPEAKER_01:Have you had any misses on that? Like, have you had so you talked about when you make these appointments, and if you get it wrong, you shift people straight away. What what does getting it wrong look like? Is it when you get coaches missing the mark with a hundred coaches? You're gonna miss sometimes, right? Like, what does it look like? You're putting play uh coaches with incorrect teams where they're doing too much X's and O's and not connecting. What does that look like when it goes not to plan?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I'm just thinking back. So, like one of my early years, I had a coach, put him on um an A team, external coach, and he had had some success in some of the previous teams that he had coached, but in our environment, he was at he was out of his depth from a technical and tactical point of view. And so this was sort of a different one, actually, where that that is a factor as well. Don't get me wrong, like you've got to know your staff. And again, the boys know if you're a bit out of your depth with an A-team, so that was a slightly different one where I could just sense that probably didn't have the technical knowledge, but probably more so that then he struggled with the connection because it was sort of bluffing his way through it. And and honestly, I didn't make it uncomfortable, but I was just those constant conversations and that accountability piece. And ultimately um he made the decision for me and just said, Look, mate, I I know that I can't provide the experience that you're wanting for your boys and I'll move on, which was cool. And some of the other ones, and this is the challenging one, we we probably rotate through about 20% of our coaches each year. So we have, as I mentioned, like, you know, nearly a hundred coaches, and 20, 30% of them are young old boys. So they graduate from school, they're doing uni or or or whatever, and um they want to stay involved in the program, so they might coach for a year or two. And it's really hard to know what those boys are going to be like, because the best, it's not the best rugby player who's gonna be the best coach because often those the top-end players are probably don't have the time to commit. So you you kind of take a bit of a gamble on these guys, and obviously it's as well, like they're out of school, so it's around their commitment and what does their life look like outside of school. But yeah, when they're not able to fulfill their roles, it's it's a challenge because our parents have a certain expectation for the coaches, but what they don't understand is when I'm at my 80th or 90th coach, I can't be too picky. You know, because realistically, like you think about it, I've got to get find someone who's available to get to Nudgy for two afternoons a week at three o'clock in the afternoon. So that rules out 99% of the population. So it's it's it is a challenge. So sometimes I've just got to work with what I've got. And I reckon I've got good bang for my buck in just making even the coaches feel like they're really valued and just supporting them as much as I can throughout their journey. So it's an ongoing support where, you know, obviously I'm trying to fill them with confidence in their role, provide them with the support they need, um, and just take any of that external pressure off them. They don't have to really do any administration because we have age coordinators on each of our age groups. So they're not directly communicating with players or parents. We have age coordinators that do that. So they just have to focus on getting their training sessions right and getting their game day right.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. When you talk about the parents' expectations, is that is that shifted over time? You've been in that role a long time. What's a what's a modern rugby player's parental expectations at that level? Is it getting more demanding? Because I'm certainly seeing there's there's a pathway now to be a professional rugby player. So it can be treated like a subject, especially at strong rugby schools like yours. Is that becoming like a more passionate following from parents? And and where do you see that leading?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, like it's a good question. I wonder if a year eight maths teacher is as scrutinized as a 13A rugby coach, or if there's as many questions around selection and things like that. Look, my parent body is excellent. And again, I feel like in these roles, you can, if you're really proactive and over-communicate and don't leave too many grey areas out there, people are generally pretty good.
SPEAKER_01:I love that word over-communicate to to parents and because parents are stakeholders essentially in in the program, aren't they?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we I've been leaning into this space a lot um in recent years. People talk about oh, how you're going to manage your parents. I sort of think that I don't know if that's the right word. I think it's how you collaborating and and working alongside your parents because they are a key pillar in this relationship with coach, player, and parent. And if we're not working together, then we can't maximize potential. So, like a perfect example is we can do a lot of really good work at training, and there could be really good conversations, really specific feedback that you're providing a player. It could be a selection thing they've moved up or down in a week. And if Johnny jumps in the car and the conversation he has with mum or dad on the way home is not aligned with what the coach's messaging is, then you're kind of back to square one. And the player can get some really mixed messages. So, as an example, something that we've tried this year is if I've caught up with a player, for example, at lunch and had a difficult conversation around selection, look, mate, unfortunately, you're going to be moving down to the B's for whatever reason, I'll follow that up with an email or a phone call to the parent. Not always, but I know if I can forecast that this potentially is not going to be crystal clear for everybody in this partnership, then I'll get on the front foot and just make sure that, hey, just letting you know this is the conversation that we had. These are the points that we spoke about. If you could help me as a coach by reinforcing this to Johnny when he's home tonight, that's gonna that's gonna be really beneficial for his development. Because at the end of the day, I don't think anyone doubts that a parent doesn't have the best interests of their son or daughter. Like that that that they want what's best, but sometimes they just probably don't have the resources to provide their son or daughter with, you know, the the messaging that is gonna actually support them.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And it's fascinating too, because but because most players, unless you're playing in the in the for you fellas, it would be the the eighth team, but but even there, everyone wants to get better at like, right? Like it's one of those sport is one of those things where people want to get better, they want to play better because it's more fun, score more tries, have a better time. So all players do want feedback, whatever level they're playing. Is that something you agree with?
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. Like if you if you do any sort of feedback, you know, review at the end of a season, one of the common topics or suggestions that the players would say is I would have loved more individual feedback. Everyone wants individual feedback. And that again is there's an art in that. Like that's you've got to be realistic about what how much time a coach has in providing feedback, but also like, you know, what does that actually look like? So something I'll share that I've done over the years, which has worked for me, is so when I do a pregame talk on a Saturday, I don't really do much talking. So what I do is a couple of minutes before warm-up, we'll all just take an E and everyone will just share one, one or two things that they're focused on for the game. Now, the reason why I like doing it that way is because it gives me some confidence, or maybe not so much, around, you know, what sort of headspace the player's in. And it also gives me a little bit of feedback on how much I have coached this player in the week leading into that game. If they're a little bit vague and sort of off the mark, it's a reminder for me that I've potentially missed the mark on individually coaching this player. So it's a nice little check, a weekly sort of checkpoint where you can reflect on your own coaching in the war. So if the boys are locked in, you, and then the other part of it I like is that the rest, there's a bit of accountability for the rest of the team. And then obviously, as the coach, you can just touch on a couple of those points that the players have shared, and then you're ready to go. And also everyone knows all the boys are then contributing a little bit. You know, there's a little bit of opportunity for leadership there, and then they're contributing to the game, and that's the beauty of rugby, isn't it? Like everyone has a key role to play to get the outcome.
SPEAKER_01:Mate, I I love what you're saying there about hearing what your players say, and then if they just bang back with the things that you've talked about during the week, it means it's sunk in right. That probably the worst thing for a coach is if you've been thinking about something or trying to get something across, and then they they don't even mention it. Um clearly your delivery or something of uh around it sinking in is missing. Hey, so that's a that's a lovely weekly check-in point just before a game.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And I think I think like most coaches would agree that you know, you're all you're constantly talking to your game drivers, you're constantly talking to sometimes the bottom end of your team, really trying to get them up. Sometimes I reckon we sometimes miss maybe the middle or our real top end talent. Like if you've got a gun finisher, how are we making our great players excellent? And that's a nice little, you know, checkpoint where you remind yourself, and they're really specific things. It might be you've got a right winger, keeps carrying the ball in his left mitt, and you've been telling him, hey, let's get that ball to the right mitt, keep your bumper hand up, you know, like little things like that where you've where you've done a bit that week. And if he's, if he mentions that, you think, brilliant. And then you know, he might then touch on, you know, his positional play, or we've spoken about they've got a left footer in the team, you know, little things like that where it's really specific. And you know what? Sometimes it's not that specific for some players because you don't want them to be overthinking things like you're a bit like you when you were playing, Benny. I don't know if you would have just liked to run around and just smack people.
SPEAKER_01:I remember one of my favourite quotes what a young coach uh at school said to me, was came up to me quietly in the locker room and just said everywhere and walked off. And I went, Oh, yeah, and I just had free license to do it. I loved it. I just thought it was the best one-word thing. Another aspect, mate, which you mentioned, and I and I love your thoughts on it, is the taking the knee. You said you get the boys together or the players together in a circle, and you and you take a knee and and you have this conversation, this little checkpoint. And there's something about that, which I personally think is quite a powerful thing, about dropping the level. And I think in school age group, it's a good one because I find when you're talking to a group of you know, 20-odd 15-year-olds, there's the distraction levels are immense, right? Like a bird flies overhead and and half the kids at the back go, there we go. But when you drop it down onto a knee, for me, there's this real cool coaching thing around just draws in a lot of focus and all eyes are on you. You don't have to worry about how you're standing, you're lower. Do you have anything? Do you do you kneel for a reason? Yeah, I don't know. I like that.
SPEAKER_00:And and I'm certainly on the knee as well. Like that's key. Like you're down at their level. Like, I wouldn't have the boys on a knee and then I'd be standing. No, it's all it's all about yeah, leveling out and yeah, everyone's got a role to play to contribute. Like, I think yeah, captivating attention, like that is so important. You're right. Like, that's I believe when we talk about how have boys changed or has the way that we need to train changed, like that, that that we could talk, we could unpack that a little bit because it is in it is so important what your messaging and how much you can keep your players captivated and engaged for is not that long. Even the ones, mate, even the ones that are so locked in and are like, you know, if if you start blabbering, and again, I I I think I'm pretty good at reading the room. If I know I'm starting to talk for too long, I'll look at their eyes, and if there's a bit of side-eye action going on, I'm like, you know what? I'm not gonna call these guys out on it because this is on me. I've missed the mark. Yeah, I'm not gonna say, hey boys, come on, focus on me. It's not about me. I'm talking too much for too long. I've got to move on.
SPEAKER_01:And and this is an interesting point for school age coaching, because predominantly a lot of uh the coaches of school age coaching are teachers, and it's a very different thing coming out of the classroom setting where there's there's a a different way of doing things. Do you what's the difference for you from uh teaching in a classroom setting to then coaching the game of rugby particularly? And what potentially is something that those coaches have to separate themselves out?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's it that's an interesting one because I teach PE now and I and I teach in our junior school, so it's all prack. So for me, like I'm I'm not really in the classroom, I'm on the field. So I actually do lots of things which overlap. My coaching world and my my teaching world, yeah, like there's like I I trial things in my PE class or or vice versa. Um, so look, I think I think something that you've got to acknowledge as a coach is particularly in the schoolboy setting, is the boys have been in class all day. And for some of them, like this is their one, you know, one part of the day that they really look forward to. So that's something that you need to consider is if they've been spoken to, sat down all day, when they get to you, what are they going to be excited about when they first come to your training session? So I we put a lot of thought into how we start training sessions because you know, you so often, again, the coach loves the control, and that could be the same control that they like. Actually, that might be something it's the control, like probably letting go a little bit more, allowing players to lead, being vulnerable as a coach. I think you probably have a little bit more freedom as a coach to coach in chaos than maybe you're allowed as a teacher in a classroom. And you know, obviously there's a lot of research going into that. Like, what is it a productive classroom? Is a productive classroom full of kids sitting down quiet behind a desk? Like, how much learning's actually going on in that environment? Like, you talk about what everyone's leaning into a little bit more in in the world of sport is you know, that chaotic environment, which is really ugly, lots of errors going on. Could that could we learn something from that in the classroom? I don't know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think so. Well, I have this little theory uh about the difference between c teaching and coaching, and and I could be way off the mark, mate, or on this, but there's a kind of concept like when you're teaching, say, maths, for example, you've got a syllabus. Here's the book, and anyone can teach maths in theory. You just go through the book. Right, students, go through pages one to six, do that, and that's you're essentially teaching the content but where it separates for me is when you're out there coaching the coach the difference is you're coaching that person the content and there's the person in between whereas sometimes and you see it in relieving teachers they're just teaching right oh one to page one to six anyone can do it but we all know there's a difference in teachers and the better teachers are the ones that are almost coaching the person first the content rather than direct teach the content they're teaching they're coaching the person the content and in order to coach a person the content you've got to have that little bit of connection that little bit of care with them first being able to read them in terms of are they the sort of person that I need to be harsh with or can I do I have to be softer do I have to take that a little bit slower or do I need to speed them up and when you've been around a long time you good coaches can get that read really quick and just go this person requires a stern word from the start and then they'll be able to be taught the content. And I feel like it's a cool one for teachers to realise because students have been in class all day probably spoken to all day and about a largely probably the the subjects they don't really care about. But so too sometimes teachers have been all day talking to younger people just tired of about like trying to control a classroom right so it's a shift that they have to make for themselves and also for the benefit of the players that now coach and you have to s make a big separation point. Now I'm a coach over a teacher first. That that's my little theory on it mate I don't know if it stands up any sort of academic rigo.
SPEAKER_00:What do you think? Yeah no I think I mean the key there is yeah the the the connection like you've got to understand who's in front of you. I think that's the same for a a a coaching a team or or being in the classroom and you're right as a relief teacher it's very difficult because you you don't know what's in front of you so you're not really teaching your you're setting work. And and that that can be the same with coaches. You think about this like you can go through a whole season and go to training session and and go through drills and you're present at a training training and you're gonna you're gonna get a little bit better but you may not necessarily actually be coached. Like have you like and and that's another thing that I talk to my coaches about are we coaching the individual like how much how much feedback are we giving individual players it was this is this is crazy. I had this beautiful lady who's head of a department at the school and she did this project into the rugby program at Magi because she wanted to see how she could kind of use some of the strategies that we were using in the rugby program and apply them in the classroom. And one of the big things was feedback. So what she did was she sat in on a heap of my um feedback and feed forward she would call it and she was talking so I said to her I said okay sit in on a couple of my training sessions and what I want you to do is have a tally of every player at training and I want you to give it put a little tally next to when I've given a player individual feedback throughout the session. And that could be and then also make sure that they're and then we sort of had a little bit of a um a grid where it was like error correction or reinforcement of like a positive example or it might have just been encouragement, whatever it was. And then she would show me at the end of um the session it's really cool. I I really encourage coaches to do it. Like if you've got an injured player you could use them and just to see how much you're communicating with certain players more than others. And it's a good little like kind of like what I was saying before around that kind of checkpoint. You know, you don't want to get to the end of the season and and realize geez I've actually neglected a couple of players in my team because I thought they were fine. Like they're always doing the right thing and but they still they still want to be coached. So yeah that was a cool little project and she did she actually yeah did a heap of things that that season uh she actually ended up moving she got a promotion at another school so she never finished the project which she promises me she's gonna come back once and do it but it was she was literally coming to every meeting I had every training session and really unpacking like what was some of the things that we were doing that and it was all around feedback she thought she thought it was around like real specific feedback from coaches to fast track their um progression. Yeah well what's the phrase I love the I love the phrase feedback and feed forward what's the feed forward aspect of that pertaining to yeah like I think it's kind of like almost forecasting or or predicting potentially what's going to happen in a drill and and the the line of questioning with all of that as well I think is really important. Like your how you ask questions and and then and then how how good you are at listening and then waiting for responses and all of that. Like she she was really interested in in that side of things. Like the feed forward I think was all around like I was drawing the responses or the coaches were drawing their responses out of the players rather than you hand feeding it to them. Yes. So like I used I use it I use a phrase in my coaching I'll say things I'll start talking and then I'll stop and I'll say what am I about to say what I mean? Yeah so I'll be talking what do you reckon I'm about to talk about now and and when you know and you talk about how do you know if if if if you've got something cool going on in your team when you've got like three or four players just going bang I know what you're gonna talk about you're gonna say we missed that inside clean or we should have been chest down on that wide ruck or we needed to work harder to get into you know like bang bang bang it's like when they're on when you when they're locked in and everyone's sort of singing from the same hymn sheet that's that's cool.
SPEAKER_01:I guess it's it's it's a cool one that feed forward because just like feedback you want it to be like I take a little one around like five positive feedbacks to one negative is a nice sort of balance for me. But it would be a nice one feeding forward too because it would be easy to get into the trap of look what would happen if we did that and it to be the negative answer that you're searching for but like feedback you want the the feeding forward to often be positive as well. He's done that what do you think that allows allows us to have space on the outside where we can score tries yeah absolutely right so the work you did here is going to lead to that positive outcome for us over there. Great work. Yeah what is success going to look like in this in this game what are we hoping to achieve what are we hoping to achieve what do what do you reckon we we could really focus on that's a really cool concept I think it's a cool one for coaches because um I I know we started with a bit of five to one ratio and just uh just raising that that's the ratio we we want to do as a coaching group and when you're actually got a target like that and you're aware of it you actually sometimes go actually I'm I'm not actually as positive as I thought I was when someone's scoring me.
SPEAKER_00:And likewise when you've got someone following you around like noting down which players you've given feedback to and and whatnot it's a great reflective practice as a coach isn't it and it's not that far fetched like you know I know sometimes we you know we're a bit unrealistic for a coach who's coaching schoolboy rugby but like honestly that is an achievable task. You could do it any training session and you don't even have to do it for the whole session but you could you could do it over a week but and and you this everyone's got an injured player or a co-coach or someone that they can task that with and that you could do it on an iPad or a notepad whatever and not you don't have to share with anyone it could just be for you or or you're completely transparent and you're telling the boys hey this is what I'm doing because I'm trying to get better as a coach. I want to make sure I'm providing all of you with feedback. Like how cool is that I I tell you the other one where that would be awesome for a lot of coaches is is getting an injured player or whatnot to just analyze you as the coach on a sideline on a Saturday and your tone and your language that you use because with the emotional aspect of game day I think a lot of coaches become something they're actually not and act and say things which isn't probably in congruence with who they actually are as a person or what they'd want to be and they don't even realize like the language some of the the expletives the way they talk to referees or how they deal with mistakes or drop passes you know the reactions positive negative what's the feedback is things got a negative lean on a Saturday that'd be a fascinating one too yeah I I love that and and getting a player to do it like wow like that's um because you think oh geez do I really want a player to do it well they they see it anyway like you've got an injured player like on the sideline that that they can sense you they can sense your energy so put yourself out there and go you know what you can fully critique me and then you can yeah wouldn't it be amazing mate like what what a level of trust and vulnerability for a coach uh coaching under 14 side and you've asked the injured player can you just monitor my behavior and let me know how many positive to negative phrases I I yell out throughout a game. I think you put a framework around that particularly the younger they are so it's not so they have to take sort of any of their own um you know thoughts or feelings on it so they don't feel too uncomfortable. It's just like a tick and flick and you set up the framework or you set it up in partnership with them. Something around the feedback and um something that we we we've speak a lot about is I reckon we can be really detailed in our error correction feedback at training but we skim over positive examples that we're looking for. So as an example we'll be like like we'll give mate you've got to get your hands up um like with that pass you keep dropping it or you know whatever it is but then if it's a good pass, yeah nice work. Rather than I loved how you really reach for that ball you know you went back towards the ball you were really square on your first movements like that was exactly what we're looking for. So I I reckon we can be really deliberate and and get really good return on being a bit more specific with praising good examples at training.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah there is a there is definitely a coaching tendency to really burrow into the negative aspects isn't there and yeah yeah so when someone does something well it's because they didn't do any of the the wrong things so tick tick tick on the thing. Yeah what does good actually look like yeah yeah yeah but there's a lot of psychology around that like the more you praise what you the behavior you want to see you're more likely to get the behavior you want um which is massively understated um and and I think I often have this conversation with my wife my my child comes home and we had a great example uh a while back where they said I got no I got 98% in my mass test today mum and her first response was oh what what what was the 2% you got wrong and then we had the chat afterwards like you know we got 98% that's outstanding.
SPEAKER_00:She's I know why did I go to that like just instinctively went to it's human nature. Like if I go we do like um end of season like reviews and and literally every single director in our office does exactly the same thing. Soon as you start flicking through because it'll put it all on a spreadsheet you skim over anything that's five out of five four out of five anything that scores negatively your your attention directly goes straight to that score and and the comments around that. Isn't it just terrible that that's just what we do and you think we're doing that as a you imagine when you're having a conversation with a player and you've just tried to fill their cut but but you've you've also um you know had a some sort of feedback that's potentially um a little bit negative that's all they're hearing.
SPEAKER_01:Well it's really interesting when you do those sort of grids and graphs of like everyone giving a five to four three two one you've almost got to sometimes unless there's a truckload of ones or fives if there's just a couple you've almost got to remove them and say that's just the outliers that's someone who's hardcore loves rugby regardless of whoever's coaching or the person who gives it one is they're gonna give you a one anyway because they're just they're not into it. They're begrudgingly here. It's always going to be a one let's just see is everything else a four or if everything's then we're probably doing it right it's the sort of the threes where you're like hmm this is that that could improve now mate you you are doing a lot of work it's um not only on your programs coaching and upskilling that but you run uh the youth rugby coaches forum which is absolutely outstanding I was a guest there last year presenting and you have it's awesome mate what is the inspiration for you for running this bigger wider piece in in in line with your rugby program but developing rugby coaches throughout Australia with this what what's the rationale mate yeah oh well there's a few reasons that kind of have inspired me to to create this event.
SPEAKER_00:Obviously like I love rugby I've been involved in in rugby my whole life been sort of in the youth space for nearly 20 years and when you get in a role like the the privileged role I have at Nudgy working you know at a school that has a big kind of investment in rugby and and it's a it's a sort of a part of our heartbeat you can see what the potential that rugby can have as a game and and the benefits it can have to young people and their families and the wider community and probably something that has been challenging in recent years is that the game of rugby particularly in Australia has probably been struggling a little bit and there's different reasons for that and and one of them is the safety piece. And something that really triggered me unfortunately in the GPS competition there was a couple of serious injuries and and one of the injuries happened to one of our boys and it got me really thinking and it sort of shifted my priority a little bit around like in this role like it's not all about just making the nudgy rugby players as good as they can be and helping my coaches and whatever. I sort of started thinking a little bit more broadly about the game of rugby and are we providing experiences for players in schools and clubs that they're going to be excited about and they're going to keep coming back for and making sure that the game is safe and the perception of the game is safe so it continues to grow. So that kind of got me thinking is there a way that I can you know support the game beyond the gates of nudgy and then as you mentioned earlier I you know back when I was at uni we were running this music festival so I did actually pick up a lot of cool school um pretty transferable skills from running a large scale sort of community event that I could apply to um you know putting on an event with my event management sort of organizational skills and my passion for rugby and rugby coaching. So that's kind of where the idea was born and yeah we've run four events and this would be in January will be our fifth event and like for me selfishly like the actual process of putting on the event is is a real learning for me. Like every like obviously having conversations with guys like yourself and the people that I meet on this journey lots of clever people that have opened my eyes up to so many different components and in different fields of rugby and and coaching and young people and culture and you know all sorts of things so I've met lots of really really intelligent people along the way and it's yeah it's been yeah it's been really really fulfilling.
SPEAKER_01:I found it lovely mate because like yeah I obviously had some super high profile guests last year at uh Joe Schmer and Mike Cron were there presenting not only speaking but also out in the field delivering and just the access and the sharing that that that happens in a forum like that there was hundreds of people you did outstanding each with tables but the bit I loved the most was the interactions that happened all over the show. Like over the the whole days when you're sitting around you're watching Joe Schmidt then you're listening to him then you're having a discussion amongst the other coaches on your table and when you've got hundreds of coaches eager to learn and share and re and connect the learning goes through through the roof. I I I sat down with coaches from all walks of life and it was just special I reckon and I reckon that's the beauty of rugby and the openness and the sharing of the sport and it's the culture and the values of the sport which is amazing and it's a massive reason why this podcast has started as well to to open up and start conversations. It's it's a wonderful thing you're doing there.
SPEAKER_00:Well yeah and that that's probably the other point I didn't touch on was just that sharing of ideas. Like I think there's a few challenges in Australia mainly geographically like the main hotspots of rugby are in Brisbane and Sydney and we're so far apart. So I've been in the role at Nudgy for 11 years and I've had very little to do with schools and clubs in Sydney and and rugby directors who face very similar challenges to me in their roles. Like we should be communicating and sharing ideas and bouncing things off each other and I I I feel like that we kind of get really caught up in our own little bubble and just worrying about our own backyard trying to make our own programs as strong as possible and and we we kind of like yeah we need to be more open to yeah sharing our ideas just to make everyone stronger like and I feel like maybe in New Zealand the vibe I get is probably a little bit more of that culture of sharings around and now I think for me like I presented at this year's forum and and again that's not my motive for uh putting on the event so I could present myself but I kind of felt like I had a few um you know gold nuggets that I could share which basically I'd stolen off other people anyway so they certainly weren't not they're not really my my own ideas. I don't claim them as my own but I feel like if you if you share something then other people may start doing that or copying you. But you know and that sort of then forces you obviously to continue to evolve and you know you might be saying oh this is what we did this year but I'm sort of thinking yeah but we're probably moving towards a a slightly different model next year next season. So yeah definitely that that sharing of of ideas I get excited by that and just meeting people because again like coaching rugby is hard like it is it is not an easy sport to compare it compare it to other sports and I I'm not going to compare it to other sports but certainly I know in my world there's a lot of challenges to coaching rugby. There's a lot of moving pieces you've got obviously the set piece scrum line out more you know kicking breakdown like there's a lot of different components and so there's a lot to consider and and coaches need help and if there's if we can provide a little bit of support in this world of coaching and it's not just how to kick tackle carry clean out it's probably more around the art of coaching that has been has landed well at at these forums I I gee that's one of my favorite sayings right there the art of coaching the art of the craft and I and and and and that's what culture is for me developing culture there's an art to it like it's not exact science there's many ways to do it.
SPEAKER_01:There's no right or wrong way it's just your way and that's the that's the true art of coaching because everything's different. There's there's ideas and you've got to experiment and be the culture starter on those ideas as a coach but you got to do it your way and I think that's massive. Just in reflection to what you said there like I when I came to that uh youth coaches forum which you ran and you presented I think it was you said the fifth 14 I think it was 14 best things I've done the 15 best things you've done as a DOR as a director of rugby over your 11 years mate I couldn't believe it. I loved it and I've I pretty much did the first seven like just cut and paste all of those including buying a massive inflatable for promotional purposes to get a recruitment better. It was that sort of sharing which is just when you hear it from someone that's done it and experienced real life not just theory but this is what we did this is how it worked this is a couple of mistakes in doing it but this is the best way forward go fill your boots and mate I I was impressed and it's changing the way I'm doing things because being able to hear from someone such experience in this space mate is absolutely awesome and I recommend if anyone that when they sign up for this forum which will come out well before January this thing sells out I know they can contact you on LinkedIn but they should also hit you up about what are your 15 pieces of advice for directors of rugby if you're a director rugby get hold of you on LinkedIn mate and get onto that because I couldn't recommend it higher. Now mate we've come to that time of the show where it's down to the last question and I'm interested in this one from you.
SPEAKER_00:What's one thing you believe about coaching or culture that you reckon your peers would disagree with it's hard because I've tried to surround myself with like minded people. You talk about you know you create this program it's like how do you get alignment or you're selective in who you get on board. Look something that I keep thinking about like we've had a lot of success in the Nudgy rugby program and Nudgy rugby's like I'm not going to claim that you know I've created you know this this program I haven't created the program the program was already created of um you know I'm really fortunate to work alongside you know an amazing team and you know we've had some success and continued the success of the program and I think one thing I've noticed though is like the winning part is is not everything. Like winning winning actually can mask some deficiencies and believe it or not like we actually we actually need to learn through defeat. Like I was fortunate to coach recently coach the Reds um under 15 side and we played the Waratars 15s and we just lost the first game with the Waratars scored um right on the buzzer keep the conversion beat us by a point. Now I strongly believe if we had won that game and they didn't score that last minute try our performance in the second game wouldn't have been as good because we put an absolute microscope over our performance to try to find little one percenters because we didn't get the result. If we had got the result I reckon there would have been a sense of complacency and we probably would have gone down to Sydney and and not played as well. So that that that defeat or learning through hardship like it is so important. And again like I'm not saying you need to manufacture environments where you fail but you need to embrace that hardship like in in my world I'm seeing it a lot more with players around selection and players around injuries and kind of trying to frame that or package that up for these young people that you know you need to try to see the positives in this is all part of your journey and you need to embrace the failures and the hardships because that will 100% will be a moment in time that you'll look back on and and and it's pretty rare that you wouldn't agree that that was something that made you and I like that I like that a lot learn through defeat embrace the hardships because like I'll I'll just expand on that because I love this side of things because the game is essentially a resilience game.
SPEAKER_01:You're physically going to get knocked down that's the point of the game and get back up again. Like that is rugby no matter if you're the best on the field or the worst that's the reality you're gonna get knocked down how you go about getting up and that for me that's the learning and it's not just the physical aspect of that it's rugby. It's actually the emotional and mental side of it as well. Can you get up and keep going even though you're down by 50 points and you keep getting knocked down by bigger and better players can you just make a switch and go I'm gonna keep going here mentally knowing that the physical's off the table and I reckon that's the value of rugby because outside of this sport in life and certainly society's probably getting more Teflon coded that you don't get these experiences. You don't get these physical knocks how often if you're not playing rugby do you physically get barreled over on the street when you're walking down it not very often. And I found some of the some of the most resilient people are rugby players and and contact sports people because the emotional hurt of getting bumped off by someone is repeated over and over again. So it's not an emotional hurt. So you don't react finally you just go there's nothing personal there. But when you don't have that regularly if you get knocked over in the street by someone accidentally you can get emotionally hurt and get annoyed and pissed off and and bitter and want to sue that person because you're not used to it. And I think this is some of the the value that rugby has and I think it's something to be treasured and what you just talked about learning through the defeats on this side of things I think is a wonderful thing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah like yeah it's um but it's you know you don't necessarily want to lose but it's like you just yeah but it's yeah it's it's part of life isn't it?
SPEAKER_01:It's part of life mate in dealing with loss is a real reality all humans face. And so the better we get used to it probably the better we're gonna be as as communities. Now Sean Graham that brings us to the end of the conversation mate in the podcast and I'd just like to wrap up my three takeaways I got from you today if I may. Number one, I love the opening statement that you said that the coach is responsible for the feel of the team and I I love that because it's it's a subjective thing. It's hard to put measures on the feel of something. But just that concept around care and connection to make the experience really memorable for the people that are in it is massive and I think always going back to the coach is the leader. The coach is the head of the waterfall they're responsible for the feel and they work through all the other the bits underneath. Number two I love that coaching checkpoint you talked about around hearing what your players say and you you framed it around on a Saturday you take a knee you get the players to talk about what they're gonna do and that reflects some of the feedback you've been saying throughout the week and if what you've been saying all week is repeated back to you you're clearly getting through and if it's not it's a big sign to say however you're delivering you're probably not getting through as much as you think or would like and number three is feedback and feed forward. I love this because I think we all know understand the concept of feedback where someone does something and you respond positive or negative and I love the thought of really emphasizing the positive but you also talked about feeding it forward asking the questions what would happen from here? What is this going to look like in future? And I think that's a really cool thing to test your players on around where they're thinking not just in what's happening now but the implications and the consequences of that action now and I think that's a wonderful coaching point and one we can all do more of because it's often forgotten. Sean Graham thank you for joining us and your experiences from Nudgy College in Brisbane what a pleasure to have you on the Coaching Culture podcast.
SPEAKER_00:Nah it's an absolute privilege and yeah what better way to spend a Wednesday morning in Brisbane so much much love Benny