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Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Nathan Grey: Toughness is a talent. Coaching the Red/Blue Head Mindset.
What if the best culture in your team is hiding in plain sight—in the way players clean a table, put plates away, or stick around for a coffee that really means connection? We sit down with Nathan Gray—Wallaby, defense specialist, and now director of rugby—to map the behaviors that make standards visible and repeatable under pressure.
Nathan pulls back the curtain on selection and reveals the trait he hunts that tape often misses: intent. He explains why toughness is both physical and mental, and how to coach it without crossing into chaos. We dive deep into defense culture, separating system errors from individual misses, and explore how clarity turns aggression into smart decision-making. His mantra—think clearly, act aggressively—comes to life through drills that pair collisions with immediate second actions, training the red head to blue head switch that wins big moments and avoids cheap penalties.
We also talk about the coaching journey: moving between micro and macro lenses, writing down the big picture to remove emotion, and leaning on assistants who live in the details. Nathan shares the story behind the Safe D Tracker, the simple tool that makes tracking lines visible so players arrive safe, tackle better, and build confidence. From rewarding the low tackler who creates turnovers to reframing roles without damaging trust, this conversation is packed with practical coaching cues, culture signals, and performance insights. Along the way, we champion growth outside rugby—study, family, other sports—as a secret edge that makes better players and better people.
If you value culture you can see, defense that players love, and coaching that treats the person as well as the player, you’ll find plenty to use this week. Subscribe, share with a coach who cares about clarity, and leave a review with your favorite takeaway so we can keep raising the standard together.
If you can SUBSCRIBE, RATE, and SHARE the show and series, you would be doing your bit to grow this show. Very appreciated. Ben
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Don't be blinded by just the stars that are standing out at the time. Because I was one of those guys. I was I was a bit of a rough diamond educating the players on the importance of toughness in the game. Like you can't, like you just can't you can't win a competition if you're not tough. Players can display that can that intent when when they're confident in what they're doing. Um if they're if they're really clear, they're confident, they've got the techniques, they know what they're doing, then that allows them to be be more aggressive. Having an interest outside of footy makes you a better footy player. I know that's that's a fact. I've never had a cup of coffee in my life, but if you had a coffee group, a coffee catch-up, you could replace the word coffee with relationship.
SPEAKER_01:Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Nathan Gray. He has 93 games for the Waratars. He is wallaby number 745 with 35 games for Australia, including a winning World Cup in 1999. He made a fierce reputation on the defensive side of the game. And when he became a coach, he was a D coach for the Rebels, the winning 2014 Waratars, and ultimately Australian defensive coach. Along the way, he's also been head coach of the Australian under-20s and a variety of teams across Japan. These days, Nathan is the newly appointed director of rugby of the Manley Marlins Club. And he is the founder of the ingenious tackle tool Safe D tracker, which we will talk about later on in the show. Nathan, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_00:Thanks, mate. Honor to be here. Um great podcast. Love what you're doing. Learning a lot from it as well. And uh thanks for having me along.
SPEAKER_01:What a pleasure, mate. So you know the drill. We'll start with this question. How do you define culture?
SPEAKER_00:Mate, for me, culture is a sort of a an observable set of behaviors and actions that, you know, define in an environment how things are done there. Like it's it's there are things that you're culture's a thing that you see. Um sometimes it's it's covert, it's overt, there's things that go on in the background, but it's certainly uh you get a feel for a place of how things are done in that in that environment. And that that that that would be a culture for me, like defining a culture.
SPEAKER_01:Well, when you say observable, what sort of things would you be seeing?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, the the simple things with a with a coach's hat on, simple things like, you know, in a gym, the the players, you know, respecting the the strength conditioning coach, doing their reps, helping each other out, um, you know, the putting their weights away. Then you might be in a dining room where, you know, guys are actively cleaning up after themselves, um, guys are looking out for each other. Uh, and then that's off-field, and then on field on the training field, you know, I'd see a strong culture, you know, in terms of behaviors, uh, the way the guys train, the way they keep themselves accountable, um, how diligent they are with listening to the coaches, listening to each other. It's there's a myriad of things that go into um into it. But um some of those things, you know, when you're looking for it, you can see it, but there's a lot of things that you can't as well.
SPEAKER_01:Is it do you think there's a big difference between on-field versus off-field um cultures? Are they different or are they though the one of the same thing?
SPEAKER_00:I think definitely that's a blend. The the the there's there's gonna be a blend across both on and off the field. Um, it's just how how that culture's displayed would be a little bit different from a from a team environment on the field in review meetings and things like that. But then also the players outside of it doing their doing their video work, um being proactive with coffee groups, um you know, really making making the doing the things that they need to do to become a better team and a better individual as well, like their own individual skill work, things like that. They're all examples that that go into that big culture picture.
SPEAKER_01:I love it, mate. The mount of coaches actually talk about the word coffee when it comes to culture, like around that coffee chat, that coffee, you it comes up a lot. Well, like is a what what do you reckon about there? Why is having a coffee with someone or a group of people hard for me?
SPEAKER_00:I've I've never had a cup of coffee in my life, but I I'll talk about meeting guys for coffee and catching up. It's just all about building relationships. I suppose if you had a a coffee group, a coffee catch-up, you could replace the word coffee with relationship, um, building building understanding between people, just spending time with each other. And it might be, you know, obviously if you're having a coffee, it's it's it's off the field or around the training environment. Um, and it's a good opportunity to to communicate, to sit down, communicate, connect. Um and that often involves coffee. It's something that everyone loves and has an opinion about. And uh Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah, it's it's actually interesting, is it that you could substitute the word having a coffee for building understanding? I reckon that's that's a lovely phrase.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, like I say, I say you want to you want to catch up for a hot chocolate or do you want to catch up for a cup of tea? And people look at me like I'm weird, which is actually what I'm doing, but I'm not actually having a coffee because I don't like the shit. But but so I so I just I just stay with coffee and it works.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I certainly like the coffee because it's I'm having a coffee anyway, and I love coffee, so man, I just invite someone in for that aspect. I think it's great. Um and and generally speaking, most people and uh most people in the world do enjoy a coffee, right? You must be one of the minor uh minority.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, I I I enjoy I enjoy what goes with the coffee. Like I I enjoy that more than the actual consuming the beverage. Um I I I love love chatting down, sitting down, getting to know people better, getting to know what their background is, what they're about. And um, yeah, it's uh I'll have a I'll have a cup of tea. I don't mind a cup of tea, mate. Yeah, or a weak hot chocolate, which is even worse. And people look at me, it's like, fucking what?
SPEAKER_01:A weak hot chocolate.
SPEAKER_00:Like, someone order a skinny hot chocolate the other day, and I was like, come on, mate. What are you doing?
SPEAKER_01:Uh mate, I love that. And I think that's that's the important bit uh when you're talking about this, isn't it? Is you gotta enjoy what goes with the coffee or with the sit-down. It's that what you talked about, those three C's, that the coffee, the communication, the connection, that's what goes with it, isn't it? And those are the bits which, you know, build the understanding and relationship factor.
SPEAKER_00:Very much so. And you learn things that you're probably not fishing for, or just organically things come out. You might learn something about a guy who's had a problem with a skill that he's been trying to learn for ages, or something off the field that he's been wanting to get off his chest or her chest. Um, and you know, the just having that creating that little opportunity to be able to do that is really good. And and that goes into the the culture of a place where, you know, players feel comfortable to verbalize what they're thinking. You know, it might be against what you think from a coaching perspective, but they're happy and they're in an environment they're comfortable to be able to have those conversations. Um, and it takes time to build those connections.
SPEAKER_01:I think it's also just a nice one just in life, right? Like probably everybody. Um, yeah, yeah, your partner, your kids, having that little sit-down over whatever. That that could be a hot chocolate or an ice cream, Nathan, with the kids just to check in, you know, build a bit of understanding and how they're going through all the phases of life. That's it's not it's not limited to the rugby setting, is it?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, no way. It's uh it's great. It's using using those times or or catch-ups to to connect um and communicate are things that I like doing with my kids, certainly.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, mate, we we we've gotten this habit of um ice cream, ice ice cream connections, and I have a taker every time I say we do this thing called the the great ice cream experiment where we have to go to the shop and you have to have an ice cream that you haven't had before, and we have to sit outside and analyze the ice cream. And in that time, mate, I never get a no, like it's always a hell yeah. And all four come running out and go, yep, let's go. Yeah, ice cream experiment time. And then we sit down, we chew the fat about this new flavor, but then we can that's the time to check in on all those other things too. No taker.
SPEAKER_00:Provides a little window um to yeah, to to ask some questions and also for them to feel really comfortable to, you know, open up to you and let you know about a few things that are going on in their life that you know you might you might raise your eyebrows about.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, there's a few of those, I reckon.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely, mate.
SPEAKER_01:Through all the stages. Now, mate, you have actually had um a a a massive career, mate. And you've been uh had some great coaches you've both played under and with. Now, have you got any examples of how some of those, your experiences both as a player and as a coach coming through, that have that's shaped your coaching? Any standout moments that you could share with with the audience about like gold nugget moments for you?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, a few around, you know, when I first came onto the scene, um Matt Williams was the coach of the Waratars, and he was he was someone who um, you know, gave me an opportunity to play. So there's one thing that I've probably learned from him going into coaching was, you know, sometimes you gotta you gotta back some people who might not be, you know, a traditional person in a certain position or whatnot, or from a different area. Um don't really, don't be blinded by just the stars that are standing out at the time. Because I was one of those guys. I was I was a bit of a rough diamond and and he saw some potential in me and gave me that opportunity. And you know, very, very grateful for that. Um and as a coach, I I don't I don't like writing people off. I like, oh yeah, well he might have some, but you know, what's what's there's some there's some quality in there, and when you see those qualities, sometimes it's it's hard to bring them out of the player as well. So backing backing someone is something that I certainly learned from from Maddie Um at the Waratars as well, at Bobby Dwyer, um and Ewan McKenzie uh at the Waratars, the they're very different coaches. Um, Bob, you know, Bob Dwyer, a great communicator, really open about the game and the way he wanted to play, very sort of macro around the game, where Ewan McKenzie was a bit more, very more micro, focusing on the little things going into it. So that's something that I certainly have taken away as a coach.
SPEAKER_01:Um which part of that, Nathan? Like are you have you gone more micro or more macro in your own coaching?
SPEAKER_00:I'm I'm probably from the defensive side of things, a a little bit more micro. Um, where really breaking down something, whether it's attacking shape or defensive shape or you know tackle technique or whatnot, to to try and give players real clarity on what you want from them. Um so that's something that I've that I've certainly learnt and taken away from those earlier learnings from from someone like Link. Um being being really, really clear with the players or as well around what you want, and then showing them examples of okay, that's what it looks like, them doing it well, them not doing it well, little things like that, just to create that um vision in their head of what it looks like being done really well, and then okay, let's go out and repeat that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Do you find you have to flick between those micro and macro, like a lot of coaches love the micro, and like a defense coach, where you are def you've got that micro element, but then when you're a head coach and the other roles and a director of rugby, you have to expand back out again. Is that is that a skill set in itself that you've had to work on?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, definitely. Um, it's something that I'm you know, always always working on. Being able to sort of step back and put yourself up on that sort of drone type view and have a look from a from a bigger perspective. And and then it's like, okay, well, we're seeing that from a broader angle. How can we then, you know, what areas do we need to to zone in on? You know, because we can't zone in on everything. So in terms of it like a game playing an opposition, like well let we can't focus on everything. What are we going to focus on? What part of our game is going to nullify their strengths? What part of their game do we need to worry about? Um, and then being a little bit more macro from that perspective is something that, you know, I'm I'm I'm still still learning and constantly trying to improve. Um, but I probably, you know, Rod McQueen was someone who was very, very good at that. He he he had a really good big picture, and then he had really good assistance around him that helped him sort of build that picture. And that's something definitely that I learned as a as a as a coach. Um, you know, having your your assistance and and making sure you're really clear with them, but also leaning on them a lot, you know. They're uh they're the guys who are sometimes or most of the times in that micro. So backing them, giving them support, really encouraging them to coach the coach to their strengths. That's something I really tried to do as a head coach, is really encourage those assistants and getting really good assistance makes uh makes makes it a lot easier.
SPEAKER_01:Do you think being a head coach makes you a better assistant coach?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I I think you get a an appreciation of what the head coach is going through, definitely. Yes, and also and yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely agree. I think it I think it does. Um and then it allows you to sort of see the game a bit differently as well because you've got a lot more broader responsibility and whatnot, and sometimes that's that's a that's a negative, um, and actually takes you away from coaching, which is sometimes and might be a part of the game that you really love, but you've got to entrust that with someone else to do. So that's uh that's that balance.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I actually had a little thought there when you're talking about the micro and macro, and I was I was I was talking to a fellow just the other day around the macro stuff when you're looking at the bigger picture, and I had this piece of device is and it's probably a good one for all coaches, is when you think about that bigger picture is to write it down, write down your bigger picture stuff because when you write it down, you instantly take it from inside your head where it's sort of floating around and you put it on paper. Now, when you put it on paper, your big picture stuff, you're actually watching it from a distance, and your emotions of things are taken out of it, it's just on paper. There's the big picture written down. And I just thought that was a lovely way to um when you're doing your macro stuff to actually make sure you write those big picture stuff down because often you keep the big picture just tucked away in the back of the head. Yeah, um, I want this to be a great environment, and this is how, but I'll just tuck that away. But when you write it down, you you create that little bit of um distance, like you're actually observing it, you're observing the words just like you're observing that bigger picture. I thought that was a lovely little um little piece, and I've been thinking about that lots lately, mate. But there's there was a phrase there which is said which I I'm I'm really keen to I thought was really good. When you're talking about your learnings, you said don't be blinded by the stars in your team as a coach. Um not writing people off and seeing the inner diamond. Now that's in every team. Is there any way what sort of stuff are you looking for when you're talking about finding you know that that that spark in someone? Is there little bits that you like even yourself? What do they see in you to know that he's worth you know pursuing?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I I I I just and it sounds weird, but I think toughness these days is something that you know you can get you can get a feel for guys around their physicality and their their willingness to throw their body into collisions and and be really aggressive. And I think that's I think that's lacking a lot in probably Australian rugby at the moment. Um, you know, looking at the the being involved in the 20s programmes for a while, you know, we remember sitting around a sitting round, you know, selection tables going, right, if who are the toughest guys? Have we got who are the guys here that we want to pick for a bit of mong or for a bit of dog? And it and it became slimmer and slimmer at pickings. Um so looking for those guys that have that little bit of toughness um is something that you know is something that I I looked for a lot in players, and I sometimes they might not be the most skillful, they might not be the fastest, they might not be the strongest, but they're the guys that you want to have in your team when you're rolling into a big competition or playing big games. So that's probably one one aspect that it's and it's not really a skill, it's it's uh it's an intent. And yeah, that's that's that's one thing that I I really look for in players, and when you when you find that you want to try and get those guys in your team, even if you've got to adjust for them, you know, or you might have a small back row or you might have a small centre pairing or whatnot, or but you go, I want that guy in my team because he's a tough prick. And and yeah, I don't I I just I don't know whether whether coaches saw some aspects of that in the way that I played or the way that I trained or whatnot, I I don't know, but I I I f I really like to have guys in teams who are like that. Can you coach what's that?
SPEAKER_01:Can you coach toughness?
SPEAKER_00:I think you you can contribute to it um but in terms of yeah, there's uh for me it's around educating the players on the importance of toughness in the game. But like you can't we c we can't play or we can't win a competition if we don't have that as part of our DNA. Like you just can't you can't win a competition if you're not tough. Like it's pretty it's pretty simple.
SPEAKER_01:And is that physically and mentally tough?
SPEAKER_00:Definitely both. Yeah, definitely both. And I think they they do go hand in hand, but then you have to sometimes get that balance between, you know, not being too physical and you know, and then giving away penalties and being stupid or whatnot. Um, but then also, you know, not getting too technical and really focusing all everything on being just playing a mental game, you've got to have that physicality. You've got to have it.
SPEAKER_01:Because it's part of the game, isn't it? Like the fundamental reason.
SPEAKER_00:It's a critical part of the game, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Where'd you get yours from, you reckon?
SPEAKER_00:What's that, sorry?
SPEAKER_01:Where's your where's yours come from? Because everyone I talked to about yourself says that that was you in your game. Tough around that side. Where did you where did it come from, dear reckon? What was the spark us?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, I don't I honestly don't. I've thought about this a lot, like over the years, and I I don't know. I was a younger I got a I got an older brother. Um he's three years older. I could never beat the fucking bastard at anything, like anything. I couldn't beat him at anything. Like I've got these visions of we played squash when we were growing up, and I I'd I'd stay, we'd stay at the squash court for like five hours and I couldn't I couldn't beat him. And he just kept beating me, beating me, beating me, beating me the whole time. He beat me at everything when I was a young kid. And I don't know, I don't know whether I just developed that that tenacity or that hate of losing or that fight and um Yeah, I d I I don't know. And and I think as I got a little bit, I didn't really as I when I got older, I reflected back and I thought, well, I was always the I was always the sort of next guy off the rung. Like even going into professional footy, like I I'm a sentient, yeah. I was playing inside centre, yeah, and I was in the era when there was a couple of shit centers called Daniel Herbert, Tim Horne, Jason Little, Pat Howard, and and then I and then I then I was coming through. So I was competing with those guys and um you know Timmy Hoare and I love him to death, but we we had some great battles, but he was always the godfather, and I was always even I saw him at a lunch yesterday, and he still calls me the young bull. And I call him I call him the old bull. And um, yeah, I don't know. There's just just that tenacity in trying to fight to stick in. I don't know. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Mate, I love that. I I think there there is probably some science done on the younger brothers or the younger siblings and families probably having the most scrap to them, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I I I absolutely and same with same with the girls as well. Like I've got three girls and mate, it's interesting. They all they all develop very differently. Um, but the you know, the women's game now, which is becoming bigger and bigger, you know, you're getting you're seeing you know a lot of girls with that physicality, and they actually have a lot of intent. They have a lot of intent, so but you've got to give them the tools, they just throw their bodies around.
SPEAKER_01:Now talking about giving the tools, mate, this is this is where you've crafted your your your career essentially, is on the defensive side of the game. You talked about earlier, you said it's not the sexy bit of the game, but it's the it's the game that you've always loved. So I'd I'd love to know this for for the coaches listening is like what is the culture of defense? You know, what is it about it that you love and what what is the culture not just of rugby, but of you know that part of the game, the culture of defense?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I I I think it's something that you know defensive coaches, you know, we love that part of the game because we know how important it is. But I think the culture of defense is around you know, individual responsibility number one. So your your individual responsibility, but then also the importance of your teammates around you to be effective as a defensive team, you need to have everyone connected, you need to be on the same page, um, you need to have that understanding of what you're doing, and you know, you can't just develop that, you can't just rock into a team and have that quickly. You have to develop that. Um, so then you need to train it, you need to put players in situations where they're they need to connect, explain to them why it's important, how it's important, what they need to do. Um, but really importantly is is giving them the tools to be able to do it. Like you can't just say we we want to have a really strong defensive culture in our team. It's we need to exhibit it, we need to, we need to go and do it. And this is what it looks like. And like all things that are done really, really well, teams that defend really well together, it actually when you're watching them play, it looks quite easy. Um, but the detail in that and the consistency of the players to be able to deliver that week in, week out over a long competition is very, very hard. Um so I don't know whether I answered your question there, but the culture would be the individual and the collective having them together and then being able to execute it.
SPEAKER_01:Is there a mindset for defense which is different to say the attack?
SPEAKER_00:No, I I I think you're always trying to you're always trying to you know, with with with attack you're trying to capitalise on on poor defence and in defence you're trying to shut down good attack. So you you you're trying to you're trying to stop something from happening. Um so having a really good clear picture of what you wanna how you want to do that is uh is critical.
SPEAKER_01:I guess there is a balance between um uh that technical side and the emotional piece of it, because it is a bit of the emotional part, isn't it, defense? Like it's you you you've gotta have a bit of intensity and intent, as you talked about earlier. It's you've gotta have it. And how do you coach intent?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think players can display that can that intent when when they're confident in what they're doing. Um if they're if they're really clear, they're confident, they've got the techniques, they know what they're doing, then that allows them to be be more aggressive and or or be smarter with their decision making. Um execute it allows you to do it better. And if you if you can if you can instill that in your players, um, you know, I I like to use the the situation where, you know, and and it's coaching philosophy is different, you know, whether it's you know on defence, whether it's system or whether it's individual. Like do you focus on your system but then you don't focus as much on your individual tackle techniques, or do you focus on your sis on your individual techniques and then you bring your system and bring that in? Like that's the yin and the yang. You need them both together, but what what comes first? Would you rather a really good individual tackling team across across the field or a really good system, but you guys are missing one-on-ones all the time and you're wondering why you're leaking points? Like, what do you need to work on? Do you need to work on your system or do you need to work on your one-on-one stuff? And that's the that's the yin and yang. How do you get there?
SPEAKER_01:How do you know that? Like a lot of coaches would be looking, like, how do you know when it's someone misses a tackle, whether you go, that's just a missed tackle by that individual. We'll just work on that individual this week to make sure that gets better, versus uh that guy missed a tackle, but the real reason he missed it is because of all these everyone was doing the wrong thing. How do you how do you make that assessment? Is it is there an art to that?
SPEAKER_00:You know, knowing just coaching over at Suntory last season, um, you know, all all our tries scored against us. I did an analysis of was it system-based or was it individual based? So the way that I I gauge that was if it was a system error, say off the back of a line out, they bounce around and you're you're defending halfback, you know, he's in perfect position. He's where he's supposed to be, he falls off the tackle, the guy goes through, then he makes an inside pass and he scores. Like that's that's an individual error. That's not a system error. Whereas, you know, in the same scenario, if the guy had of the the defending halfback at the back had a shot off and gone really wide really early trying to take that second set of hands, it's like, well, mate, why are you doing that? And it's like, well, that's a system error because he's supposed to be checking that first guy off the back. So breaking up, and I yeah, I broke it down and it ended up being exactly half and half. It was unbelievable. Half were system errors and half were individual tackle, miss tackle errors. So it just highlighted to me the importance of making you work make sure you're working on both.
SPEAKER_01:What's um what's what's the ideal there? What what would you like? No system errors.
SPEAKER_00:I would rather have no miss tackles.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So I reckon, I reckon, yeah, I reckon, yeah, your system, you can you can work on your system, but you can't, yeah, you can't just do one and miss out on the other. You've got you've got to work on both. Knowing, knowing, knowing where to be is important, but knowing what to do when you're there, you need to you need to have both. Um I think if your system, if your system is good and everyone has an understanding, then you can go, okay, well, okay, you're just missing tackles here, mate. What can we do to do that? We can either help you get better at your tackle, or we'll shift the system and we'll piss you off and we'll put someone else into that position who can do that. And teams do that all over the world, depending on their backfield, the size of their players and whatnot. So, and that's an exciting part of the game as well.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, when do you when do you make that call? Like, because that's uh obviously a slap in the face of some players to go right up, you you're not getting better there. We're gonna move you out of the frontline D and we're gonna chuck you way over there where you don't have to make many tackles. How and when do you make those conversations?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's all in the cell, mate. It's all in the cell. Um, no, I just find you you you explain it to the player how this is gonna value the team and how it's gonna help the team out. And all players are when they realise that if you're doing something to help the to the benefit of the team, then they're gonna be on board. They still might be a bit shitty that you're taking them out of a frontline defense or whatnot. But you know, deep down they they probably know that that guy's a bigger body, a better defender, he's gonna do a job there. And then the player that you might be moving, his skill set's gonna be utilized somewhere else. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I've loved listening to some of those, uh, some of those conversations where you have to say, Look, we're moving you way out here, just so we want to conserve your energy so when it's time to get the ball back, you're fresh and ready to go and and and you can do what you're good at. Part of it's true, mate. Part of it's true. Part of it's true.
SPEAKER_00:Part of it's you're just a shit defender and you gotta move.
SPEAKER_01:I've been also with a lot of lot of number 10s that actually go, you say no more, I'm there. I don't want to make these tackles.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and it does make sense, you know, you're saving those guys for for the skill set that they're bloody good at, you know, organizing and capitalising on on opportunities. So if they're fresh and they're in a position to be able to do that, then that's that's only smart footy coaching, I think.
SPEAKER_01:How do you make someone enjoy tackling? Or, you know, because you get a lot of players that don't like it. How is the defence coach do you get the cell to make people love it or want to do it?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I uh exactly. It's all it's in the cell. Like I love starting my defence presentations with like a massive big love heart. And it's like I actually love this part of the game. And you look at look around the room and you see guys looking at you like you had genuinely have three heads. Or, you know, you might, you know, it's like yeah, like I defense is a beautiful thing, you know. All people, like all men, most men like different, you know, different types of women. Like defense is different, there's different types of tackles. Like I look at it like that. I absolutely like I love it. And you know, with a player who might not you make someone a good tackler, it's like let them help them fall in love with that part of the game. Um, there might be something that they've done in the past. That they've you know might be injured or with poor technique, they've found themselves getting uh repetitive repetitive head knocks or or injuries or you know, so giving them the tools to be able to fix what they what they're what's holding them back from having that confidence. It might be a system thing, it might be, you know, something where you know they're just not confident. They might have a niggling injury like a bad AC on their left shoulder, so they're always trying to tackle with their right. So trying to figure out what's inhibiting them from enjoying that part of the game, and then just passing on that knowledge and that love and hoping that they pick that up and and get better at it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. That's through those little coffees, isn't it? That that understanding you're trying to pick up.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and also it's it's also how they how they can benefit their team with their tackling. Like that is one huge thing. Like I remember Bernard Foley, you know, everyone, you know, sort of that that sort of 2015 World Cup period where, you know, there was Pocock, we had Pocock hoops, back rowers, getting lots of turnovers. Everyone's going, oh my God, these guys are so good over the ball. But when you go back and you have a look, for those guys to get onto the ball, the ball carrier needs to be on the ground. And who's made those low tackles to create those opportunities for those guys? Matt Tenor, Bernard Foley, like guys who really good low tacklers, but we highlighted the benefit of you do that, you create those opportunities for those guys to get on the ball. Like, and then in review meetings, reward that, reward that behaviour rather than the guy getting the turnover.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's that's right. And and because it's it would be easy just to focus on that those jackalers, right? But you're this is the sell of it, isn't it? That everyone's got a roll.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, all good jacklers, you all the guys around the world who are excellent at getting over the ball, every time they get that opportunity to do it, just have a look who's who's made that low tackle to create the opportunity for that guy to get onto the ball. And those are the guys that I get that I'd that I'd be rewarding.
SPEAKER_01:Love it. Mate, how do you think your passion as a D coach rubs off and is important for coaches when you're coaching this side of the game, because it's an emotive piece sometimes. Do you do you need to be everything that you want them to be first?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I you definitely need to pass on how much you love it, like and and that's and that's as a D coach, being being like that all the time can be hard. Um But I think like like a lot of things in life, if you you'll if it's bullshit, they'll the players will see will see through it. Um But I yeah, I d I don't think I'd like to think that the guys that I've coached, they they they know how much I love it and how much I and how much I value it and how much I value them contributing to the team's performance through this part of the game.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I love that you talk about it can be s smelt out if it's not you, eh? If you're shouting and raving and it's not you, that's like coaching yeah, faux pas city, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and sometimes it's it's it's just knowing when to dial it up and when to dial it down and and whatnot. So that's um yeah, that's that's all part of it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Now, mate, you you've you've coached a little bit on the pathway system. What do you think the physical side of the game, like uh like you loved it yourself? What do you think it's given to you over time? And what do you think it gives young players? What is the benefit of like getting hurt? Getting like when no one wants to get hurt, but it's an inevitability of the game. What's the benefit, do you reckon, around you know, the contact nature of the game, the physical nature of the game in terms of values that you get from it?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, look, r resilience and and being able to bounce back from setbacks is you know, it's a it's a life skill, really. And you know, the physical side of rugby, you do you wake up sore, you you got bumps and bruises, but you've got to get up and carry on. You know, you've got to keep going, you've got to find a way to push through some things. Um, you know, you have to listen to your body as well. Like that's something that's really important with I suppose with with head knocks and whatnot, the game's become very good at making sure we're looking after ourselves from that perspective and the players. Um, but rugby's a physical sport and it's a beautiful the contact is a beautiful part of it. Um so I think as a as a player and as a young kid growing up, you know, seeing and coaching young kids, you know, they get a lot of confidence in their life through g playing footy. I know it's a bit of a long, long bow to draw, but I definitely feel as though they do, because they get used to having to push themselves, having to deal with injuries, um, setbacks, not always getting what you want, um, patience, uh, resilience, determination. Like the list goes on and on. Does, does it?
SPEAKER_01:And and probably like different other sports too, you get humbled a bit more in in rugby because there's always someone bigger, faster, stronger that uh you're always going to miss the tackles, and you're never gonna have a complete um hundred percent in your career. Yeah. And so you always have those little humblings, right? Which is good for that emotional steadiness.
SPEAKER_00:There's nothing better than seeing a young kid who's been killing it playing and he's doing this and whatnot, and he gets sat on his ass or he gets absolutely smoked in a tackle. Um and how they deal with that is is a really good life lesson as well. Like being able to, as you said, being able to deal with being humbled um and and then and then responding. Like some some young people and even some players at the highest level, they they can't handle it when things aren't going their way. Um so it's good that, you know, from a pathways perspective, that boys and girls coming through their their development in the game, you know, understand that. And uh and sometimes sometimes you've got to go at the end of the day, when you get your ass handed to you, being able to say, you know, we just weren't good enough today, guys. Like, no blaming the ref or the other team or the other team that had this player come over and all that the bullshit that you hear, and you'd hear this from the from the school's perspective, it's like sometimes we just weren't good enough, and that's fine. We'll uh we'll roll the sleeves up next week and see how we go and we'll we'll back we'll back ourselves.
SPEAKER_01:I think it's absolute uh for all coaches, if the first comment you make after a game is anything to do with the referee, then uh you're scapegoating from the outset, and the referee should be the last comment you talk about. It's so easy to say we lost the game because the referee or the referee was terrible, but for me that is just take stock. I know the emotions there because you might have lost and there might have been one or two calls, but yeah, oh mate, it's probably though.
SPEAKER_00:Parents are probably the biggest people who need to bloody work on that as well, mate. Because the conversations in the car's home, I don't I a lot of the times I don't know whether they're, well, we weren't just weren't good enough today. We got beat. There's always uh anyway, that's a that's a whole nother podcast.
SPEAKER_01:That's a whole nother podcast. That's a very good point though, mate. As as coaches, though, we do have a point to do the same thing. The way you stare losses post-game, the way you frame it, is the way that is generally uptaken. So if we're framing it the first thing in is team, the referee was terrible, rah-rah, rah. That is the sentiment. That's a blame culture, whereas you own it yourself, you take full responsibility as a team, as a collective. Um, that that's got to be the sentiment coaches put in, and that's always a pro a process rather than sort of blame culture, which I think rugby's really good at on the whole.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I agree.
SPEAKER_01:Um, mate, now you talked about like that that little thing. What about the redhead, blue head side of it? Because uh it's a physical thing, this defense, and you go from having to have uh like that red-blooded, like we've got to make a tackle here, this big person's running. I mean, I've got to I've got to make this. So you go from that sort of aggressive head, but at the same time, when you're talking about systems, you gotta have that little bit of a what we call a bluer head, that control, that thinking ability to go, actually, I'm supposed to be over here. How do you how do you coach that side of things in the defence? Because it's a tough thing to get it's it's a whole different part of the game we're coaching there, isn't it? The red versus blue side of the the head.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, very much so. And to the you know, the really good players are the ones who can flick that switch and be really calm, but then when they need to, they can be super aggressive for a short period of time and then flick back into that blue. Um, you know, and I think how you coach that is probably is you can do a little bit of scenarioing with players around, you know, being able to think clearly and act aggressively is something that is is that you can do um by giving them little decision-making drills with a collision on the back end of it where you know they need to be nice and aggressive, um, but they also need to think about what they're doing. Focusing on second action is a really is a is a big thing as well from a defense perspective, you know, being in that red aggressive moment, you make a tackle, it's like, okay, what's the next thing you're gonna do after that? Are you are you gonna stay in that red angry tackle moment and just not think about what your next act what your next action is, whether it's back to your feet going through on a boss or you're rolling away, getting out of there, or even back to your feet and getting onto the ball. So you need to be calm and clear with your decision making after being super aggressive in a tackle. So just educating players on that and then putting them in scenarios to be able to do that is a good way to get them flicking between that red and the blue where you know I need you aggressive, but I need you smart. Um so that's something that you know we can't as a as a coach telling a team we can't just be a super aggressive team. We've got to be a we've got to be a smart team. Um and what a smart team is is a team that is can stay in the blue and then drop into the red when they need to, whether it's a collision and uh whether it's a clean out, uh, you know, a a tackle, uh defensive clean out, attack and clean out. Uh we need to be able to we need to be able to work smartly in those zones. Does does that make sense?
SPEAKER_01:Mate, I love it. Think clearly but act aggressively. I love this phrase, we need you aggressive, but we need you smart. And I love what you just said about whenever you do something like a tackle or something aggressive, you you know add to it a little bit of something which is thinking. So like you make an aggressive tackle or and say a tackle drill, or then you say, get up and do the next thing. And that could be A, B, or C. And so, and that'll depend on w how many fingers I'm holding up, or what colour cone I'm holding up, or what you're seeing in front of you. That's a lovely little coaching aspect, is to you know, and the same, same, same in attack.
SPEAKER_00:What happens a lot is guys might throw a pass or a little tip ball and I'll put a guy through a hole, and then then then they stand around and admire their work and just go, oh, how good was that? It's like, mate, what's your what's your next action? Like get on your bike and support that guy so you can get the ball back and and score. Like having guys focus on their next thing after they've done something, and it works both sides, yeah. If you miss a tackle, like don't bury yourself in it, mate. Just or or lie on the ground rolling around like you're injured. If you miss a tackle, get the fuck up and get in the D-line and then contribute again. Like, don't don't don't wait. It's gotta be, and that's going from red to blue and thinking, you know, you gotta you gotta you gotta think quick.
SPEAKER_01:I love that. It's probably the reverse of attack, isn't it? Because a lot of the attack stuff in today's game is a lot about all these shapes and things, and you worry, you've got to be thinking about do I throw it here or here or here, and then you've got to flick to right, I've thrown it to the there, now I've got to clean her up, which is a red-headed activity. So you've almost doing the opposite, whereas defense, you're probably making the tackle, which is you know, you're in your red, you've got to be there. But then the next job is to get back and get in the right position and whatnot, which is a thinking process.
SPEAKER_00:Sure.
SPEAKER_01:I love this. This for me is another awesome aspect of the game, and one of the big values is it's teaching this stuff to to to play as I certainly learned this stuff myself as well. You've you're constantly flicking your head between different spaces of being able to adjust quickly to what's happening in front of you, like able to think as well as you know, go right to the red head. And it's an important skill for life, like you're always going to have these things in life, right? Like, you know, your boss is coming at you around something, and you probably need to think about your response before you just act in the redhead.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:And maybe that, maybe that comes to do it. Now, what about you, mate, with your now your transition to coaching? Uh what what are your thoughts, mate? A lot of coaches listen to this. It's it is a transient lifestyle, and you're certainly the example of that, having gone all over the show, Japan and multiple clubs and things like that. How has it been? Like what how do you find stability and purpose when you're moving around, you know, different countries, different regions, different teams, different levels. How is that as a coach? What do you take picked up from that side of things?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I suppose one thing I've tried to be is is consistent with the way that I want to coach the game as well. Um, to try and be consistent around, you know, what I believe in and how I want to how I want to coach it, but also that learning that learning aspect as well. Like you're learning everywhere you go, trying to pick up different things, um, different ways of doing things. It might be might be different to the way you do it, but that doesn't mean it's right or wrong. So that's something um like continually learning in different environments, jumping around from a from a coaching perspective. Uh it's difficult on your on your family life with your kids. Um there's a no there's a number of guys who struggle with that. Um I'm I'm I'm one of those as well who's been through a lot of struggle with that, but that's part that's part of the coaching coaching, I suppose, and how people how people manage that. Um so that that's one thing as well. But staying really passionate and and sticking to what I love about the game and the values of the game is is one constant that I find is really amazing, and the people around the game as well that you get to meet um in different cultures, different countries, different age groups. Um, you know, the love of the game and the joy that the game brings so many different people is something that really bolted me on to coaching when I first started, because I didn't want to coach. I was like, nah, I'm gonna get out of this. I did a I did a I did a ad a marketing degree and a master's in marketing, and I was gonna go into advertising and and then I started coaching and I just I genuinely loved the ability and what happened when you can pass some information on to players, you see them get better, you see them get more confident, and then that flows both on and off the field. So that that intoxicating drug is something that um as a coach has been a real constant through my coaching career. Um but there's certainly been some ups and downs, mate. Like it's not easy, as you know, as everyone knows, all coaches know. And there's things that there's there's collateral damage as well, which is you know can be hard for everyone, but that's part of it, mate. I I love I love the game and and love contributing to it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it seems to that that phrase I I know you've said it a lot that it's a intoxicating drug. That that's very true for a lot of coaches, isn't it? There's something in this professional art or craft of coaching which is a little bit drug-like, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it is. Like it's um like you certainly certainly don't don't do it for the money. Um but it's gotta be it's gotta be um something that you yeah really enjoy and you believe in and and why not, it's it's it's um yeah, it's it's hard sometimes and um but it's also also brings you so much joy and in lots of different ways from you know, winning trophies to winning trophies to watching some kid walk up to his parents after a game and just really, really enjoying the moment of a win or you know, even a loss. Sometimes you see you see character traits of people jump out and different times and whatnot, and and that's really, really special as a coach to sit back and watch those things and go, you know, I've had I've had a bit of a I'd have a I've had a bit of input into what's going on here and and I'm really proud of that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I actually I actually sort of read a quote of you that you encourage the off-field growth, and particularly when you're working with some of the pathway stuff. And you mentioned things like cooking and recovery and those sort of things and the importance for players to learn those type of things. Like, is that still something you you think is massive?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, having having having life skills, I think a lot of players now they come out of school and they they want to jump straight into a professional career and from a rugby perspective, and you know, a lot of the time stuff's been done for them and they've their hands been held a little bit and and then that that can continue into that professional era. But making sure they're getting those life skills and and looking to to educate themselves in whatever form works for them. Um but having an interest outside of footy makes you a better footy player. That I'm I know that's that's a fact. Um and that's a that's a hard sell to a to a 18 to a 20-year-old kid who just wants to do footy footy footy. Yep. And you're like, mate, you know, actually have a break from it, like get away from it a little bit, and then it that's gonna actually make you a better player. Or, you know, yeah, you you like architecture, you you want to study architecture, go and do it, and footy will work around it, no dramas, and mate, go and do that, because that'll make you a better footy player.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, there's there's a lot of great examples of that, isn't there? About like it's it's the same as the gym analogy. If you're constantly in the gym, the where the real value comes is sometimes if you have that break and you let your muscles recover and and you come back and you're fresher, faster, bigger. It's like that. You can't just keep tearing them. Which is tough, mate, in today, because some of the workload, uh like the specificity that's happening in in all sports is encouraging people to just go pick one early and just commit to it. Where are you a believer that you know you've got to mix it up a little bit?
SPEAKER_00:100% you have to mix it up. Um, yeah, I see a lot around here where we live with young kids who are just specializing at 10, 12 years of age. It's like I all you can do is just encourage them to try lots of different sports and um and mind you some of the some of the sports have a bit of a have a bit of a say here as well because they try and keep them like creating these summer competitions and then winter late night competitions and like they try and keep the kids playing the one sport the whole year. Um but yeah, I would encourage, you know, the the the science around you know mixing the sports up and and then letting the kids sort of land where they land on what they really love and what they really want to do. Sometimes that's against what parents think or what you know the public might think, but you wanna you want the you want the the kids to fall in love with something and then and then fuel that fire once they're once they've told you, hey, I I really like this mum and dad or whatnot, I'm in. And it's like okay, well, let's go.
SPEAKER_01:Love it, mate. Love it. Now, one aspect which I think fits to this nicely that you're not just a one-trick pony, mate, is you you've come up with this little uh uh tackling tool, which I've used and we use it here. I think it's outstanding is and and just the fact that you've not only teach this stuff but you actually make a a physical product to help the tackle, because so important is the safety tracker. Mate, how did you get into it, mate? How did you decide, right, I'm gonna make something which is gonna make tackling better for everyone?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that it's it was bizarre because it's starting when I was coaching with the wallabies and talking about tracking and with guys and repeatedly going through reviews and seeing where we were missing our tackles and whatnot, and I thought, well, how can I how can I better explain tracking to the players that I was coaching? Because I d I didn't feel as though they were they were getting it um as clearly as what I was trying to say. So I thought to myself, well, why don't I why don't I just attach the attach the defender to the attacker so there's a real clear line of sight of where the defender needs to go to put themselves in a good position to make the tackle. Um so I just started doing started doing it, connecting them with an old just a a a line.
SPEAKER_01:Um was it an old uh washing line, was it to start with?
SPEAKER_00:It was the the retractable washing lines that you could hook up in your backyard, and I went and tied it round Samu Karevi or bloody Ned Ken Ned uh Ned Hannigan and um Adamash Cooper and whatnot. And I was and then I'd hold the other end and I'm like, right, I want you to, I want you to I want you to go towards the the ball carrier and get up towards me to make that tackle. And these guys were like, far out. That m that fuck that makes a lot of sense, Gracie. Like that's really clear. And I was thinking to myself, if these guys at this level are getting value in something like this, um I this now I need to do something with this. So it just developed from there, and I essentially went in down design path with a maid, and we've ended up come up with the with safety tracker, which which is a it's a training aid that allows defenders to put themselves in a really good safe position to make a tackle. Because I feel as though, you know, tackling is it's tracking and then it's hitting. So you need to have the two, but you can't, if you don't know where to go to make the tackle, it makes it really hard to make the tackle. So having that tracking aspect is what the safety tracker does, and and mate, and then it's just grown from there, and I've had like these light bulb moments with test players, light bulb moments with under eights, um, all the way through, boys and girls. And it's um yeah, I feel as though it's something that I'm really passionate about, and everyone in the world needs to do it. Um, and yeah, that's where safety tracker was born, mate.
SPEAKER_01:Mate, I love that, and it fits really well with what you're talking about before. You earlier you said the more clarity, the more technique, the more tools you have, uh, allows players to be more confident in what they're doing. And confidence is what you want for the defense, that especially the individual side. And when you've got a tool like this, which is actually put like what I love when I use it, mate, like is like like I said, there's a visual. Like normally when you say track someone, it's it's a little bit of guesswork. But when you've got like a physical line which connects me to you, and you say go up the line. I think that's the phrase you use when you're on a get up the line, and you you know exactly where you go, and you have absolute confidence. It's it's so simple, and I and I reckon that's that's part of what I loved about your philosophy of it is you're creating the clarity, is you you're ironclad on the clarity because there's the physical line, and when you move, that's the direction you go in. You just let it pull you towards where you have to go. And I think the mate, these little things are just awesome for getting this part of the game nailed down better.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely, and it's it it ties into the you know, in terms of the we're seeing a lot of head collisions and whatnot, and and a lot of those happen from over trucking or getting yourself in a poor position to actually execute the tackle. So, you know, there there is an aspect of that that helps give players confidence of where they've got to go. And, you know, with even with an under little under sixes clinic that I did, these kids were pulling the court out and they're stuffing around. But at the end of the day, they had a real basic understanding of okay, if you're gonna make a tackle in rugby, you need to go towards that ball carrier in a straight line, and that's where you've got to go to then make the tackle. For me, that's that's awesome because a lot of the collision side of things inhibits people from staying in the game. And man, if you if if you're not confident and you're not sure about and you're scared of the tackle, it's usually because you don't really know what to do. So this gives the players and coaches a really easy training aid to to say, look, mate, this is what you've got to do, this is where you've got to go to make that tackle, and then you can exit execute the tackle. And um and if that keeps people in the game, allows players to get more confident when they're playing so that they can add more value to their teams, then that's something from a legacy piece that if I can leave that with the game, then that's mate, I'm pretty I'm pretty stoked with that.
SPEAKER_01:Mate, what a what a statement, the legum legacy piece, mate, and it is a great tool, mate, and every club should have a set. So mate, what I'll do is I'll leave all your details in the show notes, mate, so people can jump on, buy their local club, uh, a set, and it'll be superb value. Now, mate, with the last question of the day, we've come to that time, and I and I'd like to ask this one. As you listen to the show, you'll know this one. What is one belief that you hold about coaching that you reckon your peers would disagree with, or culture, in fact.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I I think from a from a coaching perspective, I think the balance between being really hard with players and really um nurturing them is a is a difficult one. And I think early on in my coaching career I was really hard, really, really hard with players. And I think that's shifted a little bit since I've gotten older. And coaching the coaching the person as well as coaching the player, getting that balance right is something that I've had to work on. And I'm leaning now more towards coaching the person uh then coaching the player.
SPEAKER_01:How do you how what what adjustments have you made there?
SPEAKER_00:I think with my harshness around on-field stuff and review, um, I used to be used to be pretty, pretty, pretty brutal um with players. Uh but I think over the years seeing the benefits of shifting that focus and then having a bit more of a caring feel in the way that you deliver that is something that I've found I've had better traction with.
SPEAKER_01:So you essentially take you know harsh, direct criticism and then mold into something which is a little bit softer on the edges, but still delivers the same thing?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you you want them to have that clear understanding, but it's not it's not this like one way, that's the way you do it. It's just having an appreciation a little bit more around how they're looking at it and how they might feel in that situation, and then going, okay, what's going to be the best way for me to get through to this player? It might not be my way, it might be slightly different, and I've got to figure that out, not uh not the player.
SPEAKER_01:Mate, I love it. I actually reckon a a a number of coaches, the more experience you get, that becomes a repeating theme, isn't it? That you sort of learn that. Do you think it's actually because you get a little bit less uh stressed? There's less pr as you get more experience, you understand the stresses on yourself better and you're able to lighten and not pass it on as much?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, definitely. Yeah, for sure. Like the the result of things has shifted a lot. It's yeah, it's it's about the continual improvement of the player is is paramount. Like it's you know, then there might be ups and downs in results, but the continual improvement of the player and then the teams that you're coaching your overall improvement over a period of time, that's the that's that's the better indicator than you know W's and L's. Very easy to say, very easy to say as a coach.
SPEAKER_01:Very easy, Nathan Gray. What a pleasure to have you on the show today, mate. That is time. But before you go, I'd just like to sum up my three big takeaways from you that I really got out of it myself today. So they are number one, your phrase you said at the start, don't be blinded by the stars as a coach. And I think it's a really cool one for coaches to remember that whilst the stars are your key players and they shine the brightest, there's a whole raft of players underneath, and it's important we don't write these off because in there there's always those little diamonds. And you talked about seeing things like toughness, not something which shines really brightly, but it's it's underlying and it's deeper. And the better you can see that and nurture that, you're actually going to uncover those diamonds in a great way. So, not to just be sucked in by the shiny bright stars, I think is a great coaching point. Number two, I loved it. You said you need to be able to think clearly but act aggressively. We need you to be aggressive, but we also need you to be smart, you said. And the lovely focus point on an actionable thing to do is every time you do something which is aggressive, focus on the second action. What's next? The next job, and particularly around the defensive side of the game, is to get that happening automatically. You do something aggressive, do something that makes you think straight away. So you're flipping between that red head and then blue head and training that aspect. And I love the fact that you said you can train that. And number three is the phrase you said the more clarity, technique, and tools you have given your players allows them to be more confident in what they're doing. So I love that, mate. Sometimes we forget uh in this culture thing that we still need to give all the tools, the techniques, and the clarity for players to be confident. So the advice to coaches is to keep educating, keep being inventive to make things clear. And I think what you've done with a safety tracker is a great example of making things clear as day about what you want, which in turn leads to higher confidence for players. Dr. Gray, what a pleasure, brother.
SPEAKER_00:Thanks, mate. Really appreciate it. That's an awesome summary. You're obviously good at this. Um, mate, appreciate it. And uh, mate, all the best of everything. Look forward to seeing and running into you some more.