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Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Phil Dowson: How A Director Of Rugby Shapes Behavior, Balance, And Belief
If culture is just words on a wall, it won’t survive a 30‑game season. We sat down with Northampton Saints Director of Rugby Phil Dowson to unpack how a top Premiership club actually lives its values: clear behaviors, blunt but caring feedback, and a sense of humor that makes hard work sustainable. From academy integration to senior leadership, from recruitment to mindset, Phil shares the frameworks and small rituals that keep Saints connected and competitive.
We trace Phil’s pathway from player to DOR and why long-standing relationships can be a strength—so long as you keep the door open to new voices. You’ll hear how Chris Boyd’s challenge to “let people in” helped the staff avoid the echo chamber, why one hard rule (be on time) sets the tone for respect, and how traditions like mini‑teams, staff relays, and playful competitions build bonds across starters and non‑starters. Phil also lifts the lid on recruitment in a relentless English season: character, robustness, and the ability to adapt to life changes matter just as much as skill, especially for young players stepping into the spotlight.
Mindset sits at the heart of consistency. Phil explains why he brought in a sports psychologist to tune messages for a diverse squad where some chase Lions dreams and others chase their first start. He shares a painful lesson—a trusted player leaving after feeling unheard—and the practical system he built to prevent it: a visual board that prompts regular check‑ins with every player. We dig into the balance between media opportunities and on‑field focus, and the honest view that culture doesn’t have to look pretty to be effective; it has to fit the people and the mission.
If you care about leadership, team cohesion, and performance that lasts beyond the highlight reel, this conversation delivers lived tactics and fresh perspective. Listen, share it with a coach or teammate, and if it resonates, subscribe and leave a review so we can keep the ideas flowing.
If you can SUBSCRIBE, RATE, and SHARE the show and series, you would be doing your bit to grow this show. Very appreciated. Ben
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The organization is a reflection of the figureheads. The environment is going to be a reflection of me, but it's also going to be a reflection of all the people within it. Um, because everyone has an impact on each other. You can't have professional rugby without the corporate element of it. And so we can't fight against that, but you have to learn how to do that. It doesn't have to be pretty to be effective. Um, there's different there's loads of different ways of doing it. I think that comes down to how you treat the individual and how how you create confidence, but it also comes down how the senior players interact with those younger players. You've got to let the bakers bake, you know, you've got to give them I give them as much runway as possible. I come back and say, oh, you know, we lost 10 lineouts and she said, Oh, you know, two pages died today. And it's like, well, yeah. You can get better at the lineup. We always have a saying like sense of humour goes a long way. Um, rugby's pretty mental, you know, and 30 games a year, and it's it's nuts, really.
SPEAKER_01:Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I've been Herring and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Phil Dowston. Phil is the DOR, the director of rugby of Northampton Saints. Now, as a player, he played 186 games for Saints, as well as 96 for Newcastle and 37 for Worcester. 262, the seventh highest amount of appearances in Premiership history. He also played seven games for England, including one as captain. He started his coaching at Saints in 2017 and quickly rose the ranks to where he is now to the director of rugby. He has had huge success here and leads a club that has been rapidly rising to finals across nearly every competition they are in. Along the way, his club has produced some of the world's finest talents, and Phil is right at the apex of it all. Phil, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you very much. Make me feel old.
SPEAKER_01:Well, mate, you are certainly not old. And that's a great start point, mate. You are in an oldish role, but you're not role. You're not old. 44 years old, director of rugby, one of the biggest clubs around. Walk us through that, mate. How how how is that um how's that little journey gone?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I don't I don't really know. Um, I loved my time when I was playing there, and and then I felt that it was time for change. I went to Worcester for two years, which was incredibly healthy for me to just to get a just to get away and do something totally different. And Worcester is and was a great club. Um and I never had any um, I didn't do any coaching outside of that really. Um, but I did do some work experience in London, I did have a business, and the real world is hard work. And you realise that the commuters are you know, it's tough. Um and actually I missed I missed the coaching environment, I missed the um challenge, I missed the week-to-week feedback of games and I missed doing those sorts of things. So um there's a guy called Dusty Hare who's a Leicester legend, as you you you probably know, he's one of the leading point scores for Tigers. He was working in the Academy at Nilhampton. He said, Come and have a chat and a cup of tea, and we'll talk about coaching. And um, I sort of went into that way. Jim Mallander heard that I was coming to visit um to watch a game and talk about it. And I I transitioned into the academy role there and um and had to learn pretty quickly. And from then on, you know, I've been very fortunate with Jim, with Chris Boyd, with other guys who've mentored me and obviously a coaching group around me who've we've been pretty tight as well. So um yeah, so it's it's it's they probably wanted me to be DOR to get me out of coaching and do a bit more management and they they can get on with it. But um, yeah, no, it's it's I love the club and I love um what it stands for in the in the local community and uh and um I'm enjoying what we're doing at the moment.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I'm loving what you're doing at the moment. Do you think your background at the club helps you in your role at the moment? Do you think it really lends a helpful, a fan, helpful point of view?
SPEAKER_00:Um I think in most ways it probably does. And I think particularly with the relationships, the head of performance is a guy called Tom Buller, who was my SSE coach. The head of medical um was a physio that treated me and knew, you know, um how pathetic I was at times. And so I think we've got those very strong relationships from a different scenario that I can lean on, like you said, from an inexperienced point of view, from an age point of view, I can lean on some of those guys who've been in that environment a long time, who know me pretty well and can be pretty, hopefully can be pretty honest and open with me. And likewise, someone like Sam, obviously, my relationship with Sam, we played under 16 against each other and with each other all the way through to this point. Um, you know, we've had shared birthday parties and all this sort of stuff. So we're tight and we can be pretty blunt with each other as well. And I think that having that relate those relationships from previous um was very beneficial. But I also think, like I mentioned to you pre-recording, that getting somebody from the outside as well, you don't want it to become the echo chamber. This is how we've always done it. I think you have to have that fresh view. Um, so I think you've got to be careful, it's not just the old guard coming through. You've got to have different ideas coming in, people from different environments who've also been successful who can um who can have some perspective and context to what we're doing at the Saints.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I love that that that that phrase you said, the echo chamber. And and I you actually said before a quote from Boyd is he said to you, Chris Boyd, um, you can't expect to learn new things if you don't let new people in. And yeah, that that's something that already just chatting to a number of the staff at North Endham Saints, you guys are particularly good at, I think.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and that was from Boyd because pr previously we maybe had a closed door us against the world mentality, which I think there's power in that as well. And I think um and I think there's there's certainly things you can build around that, um, and and not letting people in and it being and it being a real sort of source of strength. But I think when Boydie came in, he welcomed everybody in. Um but he wanted his pound of flesh as well. He would ask questions. I I had a mate who was coaching actually out in Perth, who was coaching the under-16s. And Boyd at the end of the day, he let him into meetings, he watched training, and he grilled him. And he and he came out and he's like, Oh, yeah, your mate needs to think about how he's coaching and this, that, and the other. And I was like, Yeah, he's just doing it for you know, he's just trying to learn a little bit. But Boydie was at him and into him to say, you know, what do you think? How do you value it? What are the things that you would coach in different environments and stuff? And so, you know, so that's that's how he learned, and that's how he, you know, he he took things from other people and and grew his coaching. Um, and you know, there's not many things that Boydie hasn't seen or done um around the world. Um, so yeah, so I thought that was really valuable. And and Lee Radford took me into Wigan last year, which was huge for me to see that environment with Matt Pete. They went on to win the quadruple um and to see what they were doing um was really eye-opening as well. So, you know, it's it's you going into other environments and you letting people into yours as well, knowing that everyone's you know talking about a very similar game.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I love that phrase you just talked about, just like on that stuff, but the relationships and and the ones you have with Sam Vester, you you're coaching with, you're super tight mates beforehand going through it, but you're still able to be really blunt with each other. Like, that's an important part of like high performance sport, isn't it? Like, do you ever have those direct conversations?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think so. And I think it's the underlying and we sometimes talk about it with the lads as well, is is you know, they're really we we talk about how connected we are. That's one of the things that runs through our DNA. They're a tight group of lads, they've come to the academy together, which is a big structure for us and a big process for us. But you've also got to be able to feedback to them when you think it's not right, and I think Sam's more than happy to do that to anybody. Um, and I can also challenge him and and Rad is in different ways, um, hopefully. And sometimes Sam will say, That's not right, I disagree with you entirely. And other times he'll go away, reflect on it, and come back and say, you know, I've I've thought about this, that, and the other. And I think um I think that underlying friendship and the underlying respect, I think allows us to be yeah, to be pretty open around everything, really. And I think that goes across the coaching environment. And I think that um what one of the strengths we have as a club is how connected our coaching group is, as a group of guys, how connected our playing group is, and also how those two groups interact as well, I think's important. Um so it's not that sort of teacher-student principle, but it is much more collaborative, and I think that's one of the strengths of the group um that we have.
SPEAKER_01:It does feel like that. It does feel like you guys are there is a nice mesh between the the two groups, isn't it? Like some of the stuff that I've heard you guys do, like the entertainment side of stuff, the the switch off stuff is the whole club together, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, no, and it has to be, and I think um it's not a them and us, and it's not uh we're not preaching or lecturing. We're we're trying to coach, and I think there is uh you know there are some subtle differences.
SPEAKER_01:It's not them and us, we're not preaching. Oh, we sometimes we are, but they're not always trying not to that that's nice because in in a lot of environments it actually does become them, them and us, so doesn't it? Like that's quite an easy distinction to make.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I think it's very easy to I think it's very easy to fall into that trap, and and that's why you know what what you're doing and what you're passionate about with the coaching and the culture and how teams effectively how teams work and leadership is it's constantly evolving, people are constantly maturing, changing opinions and um environments sometimes do get stale, or you know, there's all these sorts of different ideas coming and so I think it's something you have to work at and have to monitor as well to make sure, you know, to make sure you're you're still doing that. And I think that's again goes back to what you bring in different people to who can you can take a pulse check on that as well, who can say, you know, you think you're doing this, but are you really? And I think that's that's always important too.
SPEAKER_01:A pulse check. I love that. Uh there's a good it's a cool phrase you talked about that people are constantly maturing. When you have that sort of in your head, it it changes your outlook on people a little bit, doesn't it? If you're if you're open to that suggestion.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I think that probably comes from our age profile. Uh I you know, I want to keep I'll pick a figure, but I think it's changing this year slightly. But 70% generally over the last three, four years, 70% of our squad is to the academy. And so that means that 18-year-olds are coming to your environment the whole time. These 18-year-olds may have been at private school or boarding school, or may have never left home, or don't have driving licenses, or never had a girlfriend before, never been um there's all these things going on, and and actually that maturity thing, and that's one of the joys as well, is because now you're getting guys like George Furbank, Rory Hutchinson, Fraser Dingwall, who are are getting married, who are, you know, having children, who are, you know, all these sorts of things. They're going through those life moments, so you get all this action on the pitch and then off the pitch. And and sad things as well, lads missing training for funerals and dealing with setbacks and injuries, and you know, and that's part of it. You're a very close group and you spend a lot of time together, and so you it's it's all in, you know. You get the rugby, you get the injuries, you get the highs and lows, but you also get life as well. And I think that maturity thing is something that we think about, particularly Mark Copley in our academy, who does an unbelievable job. I mean, he he'd be good to chat to as well, because he obviously does it from a developmental point of view rather than a performance point of view, and the interaction between our academy and our senior group is obviously integral to get that flow through of players, talented players. Um, but yeah, we've got to take into account that these lads, you know, are getting A-level results, then they're becoming professional rugby players, and then you know what I mean. And then you look at Henry Pollock, then he's gone on a lion's tour, and it's like, you know, there's a there's a spike in that emotional roller coaster.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, then he's got the media coming at him for all sorts of things as well, right? Fire up.
SPEAKER_00:Which he loves, which he loves. We won't worry too much about that. You don't have to give him any pointers around how to deal with it, he's all over it. Uh no, uh yeah. My biggest concern is that is that he gets burnt and then he then he retracts and he's not being himself. That'll be my biggest issue, is he, you know, he says something, he does something that people really don't like, and and and the heat becomes a bit more um visceral, you know, it becomes a bit more um personal. But at the moment he's just running around playing rugby having fun, and so I you know, I don't need to tell him how to do that. So um yeah, my concern is that the media crushes him at some point and he goes into a show, which will be sad because he is good for the game and he is what the game needs.
SPEAKER_01:He's exactly right, mate. Yeah, you're right. And I love your out your your outlook. He just as a young man, he'll he'll learn whatever he needs to learn along the way, just let him have fun and play this game the way he's playing it, right?
SPEAKER_00:Of course that comes with guidance from people that he trusts, and that might be any any of the coaches, it might be me, and it might be senior players who say, you know, you maybe need to not do as much of this or do more of that, or you know, that he'll be guided, he's a bright lad, like he's not stupid, and he's very driven to get to to get to where he's at the moment. So it's not a case of not again, it's that lecture thing. It's not somebody gonna sit down and wag a finger at him and say, Don't do this, but um, I think he he he's more than willing to take advice.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I love it. Where when would you step in, mate? Well like your role is kind of that bigger overseeing role. When would you like not on that specific example, but when when do you step and wade into something like that, which is not necessarily rugby, but will have an impact on rugby. What's the crux point for you?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, I wouldn't wade in, but I'd I mean, I'm probably a gobshite, which you'll learn from this podcast anyway. I'd I'd be more than willing. I'd share an opinion. I'd share an opinion and say, so I might say to Henry, you know, he gets invited to do a lot of stuff because he's because he's a man of the moment and he's charismatic and he's obviously you know very talented. And I just said you just what you have to be really picky because if you try and be all things to everybody, you're gonna end up focusing more on the off-field stuff than the on-field stuff. And the on-field stuff is what you know is is the foundation of it. So I just said, you know, I said, you know, be really picky. And I said about brands, you know, attach your name to brands that are top level. So he knocked on my office door and came in and said, I've got a photo shoot with Burberry. I said, Yeah, that's pretty good, man. You should probably do that. You know what I mean? Like he he um he's getting lots of attention, and I think he he, you know, he just I just said, you know, just make sure you're not cheapening that name by by doing everything, you know, be be a little bit more um choosy about who you attach your your brand to, which sounds a bit uh cheesy, but that's that's part of the modern day, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01:It is it very much is, and it's if you if you're approaching things from the way it might have been looked at 20 years ago, it's it's a very different way of approaching that side of things, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think so. I think yeah, I think so. But I think that's I think that's modern society's a changed its approach to so many different things, and I think it's gonna be one of those things we can't I I sometimes get frustrated in rugby where you can't have the um you can't have professional rugby without the corporate element of it. And so we can't fight against that, but you have to learn how to do that and then how to balance it's always a balance, like everything in life and coaching and stuff, is you balance it up. Like if you spend every night at London Fashion Week and then expect to train well, then that's gonna have an impact. If you have your day off at London Fashion Week, can you leave it at a reasonable time, having had a good day and all that sort of stuff and and seen something different, then that's cool. You know, I there's a balance between what you need to do, and I think um I think HP's probably learning that, and he's bright lad so he'll learn that very quickly.
SPEAKER_01:Love it, mate. Love it. Well, all this stuff sort of feeds into the bigger question, mate, which is the the the the wider setting and how it all affects it. But I want to ask you this question: how do you define culture?
SPEAKER_00:I mean you sort of sent me that as a heads up, and I'd listened obviously to a couple of your podcasts with Eddie and uh Sam, and it's obviously very hard to nail that down in different things, but I for sort of what I came up with talking to my wife as well, who works as a lecturer at university and as part of a team, who'd worked in the NHS and talking about teams within the NHS as well. And I I said shared and agreed behaviours um by everyone, so shared and agreed by everyone, um behaviours in a certain environment. Um, and those behaviours have to be exhibited. It's not a set of rules, but it's um yeah, I think behaviours is the way is the way that I would try and define it. How do you go?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, how do you how do you get agreement on some of these? Do you do you put it out there as a democracy?
SPEAKER_00:Um to a degree, and I think and I think it wouldn't necessarily everyone has an idea, but I think if you'd like to think that if I if people felt I was being too draconian or too much of a dictator that somebody would say something, I like Sam would say something. Um but you'd you'd hope that at some point the players would go, you know, that was maybe a bit tight on this, that and the other. But fundamentally, despite the fact, you know, contradictory to what I just said about the 18-year-olds coming to the environment, I treat them all as men. Yeah. You know, you know, I you know, the responsibility, there's no curfew, there's no um, you know, the one we have we literally have one rule, and that is beyond time out of respect for everybody else's time, you know, the biggest asset we have. So, so that is the one thing I would go after. And uh, if we start everything on time, the schedule will work, and we can get on with our lives, and we can get on. And if you're a two minutes late for physio, you're not gonna get the physio that you need for that half an hour block, or the physio is gonna be late for the next guy, and that's not the right thing. So the only thing I'd go on is time because I don't want to waste it. Um, but everything else is is pretty much open to interpretation, to be honest, and that's based on I trust the lads to make good decisions, and if they don't make good decisions, we work out how to deal with it.
SPEAKER_01:Have you had to do many of those work things out afterwards?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, a little bit, yeah. Because because 18-year-olds sometimes get it wrong, you know, and I think uh you know, yeah, you know, you know, being a dad, you were 18, you know, two, three years ago, you probably know what it what it remember what it feels like. Um so yeah, so people see people sometimes get it wrong, and um and I think that's why it's so important to understand the people you bring in into the environment um and also understand how they react and what they need moving forward and what and and what the group sees as well in terms of how you deal with some of that stuff.
SPEAKER_01:Do you think do you think the do you look for the people to come into the environment which are gonna work, or do you do you hope the environment shapes the people in such a way or is it a bit of a bit of a balance on both?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I'd say it's a balance, it's a great question. Um I mean from a recruitment point of view, we obviously recruit we want to recruit really good players. Um but you've also got to find people that you think will adapt and fit into the league, to the the environment, to playing 30 games a year, to um living in the northern hemisphere, to living in the Midlands, all these sorts of things, and it's character that you're trying to assess, and that's you know, really difficult to measure and assess in an interview. And lots of people, you know, you try and do your due diligence around their background and talk to coaches that have worked with them, but again, you're relying on somebody else's opinion. So um, so yeah, we definitely do a lot with a character piece, and we definitely you know try and ask the right questions to draw that out of people, but um, but it is difficult and you don't really know. I spoke to Matt Pete about recruitment and how he recruits a character, and he said he said you ask as many questions as you possibly can, but you don't know until they walk in the door. And you know, then they have a few pints together, and then you find out what they're like when they're not picked, or when they're injured, or when they have a game-costing error. That's when you find out what sort of character they are. And generally we've got a great group of lads, and I think the rest of the group, like you said, if if you've got a really good leadership group, I think they do, I think people do conform to to um their environment in some way. Not not entirely, but in some way they do.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's it's amazing, mate. You just said something there which I hadn't probably thought about is recruitment in the in the English season, which is 30 plus games a year. That is actually a big thing you've got to look for, right? People that can actually go through that grind, isn't it? Like it is a grind at times through that winter season.
SPEAKER_00:It's relentless. You know, super rugby, I think, is 16 games, is it?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's half, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So something around that. Obviously, the Japanese season's very short, the French league is incredible because it's even longer. Um, and then even pre-seasons, so the preparation time. So you so having an understanding of their robustness is obviously a big part of it because because that, you know, uh, I mean, it's a bit of a trite thing to say, and we take the mick out of it, but the best ability is availability, you know. You'd be the best club in the world if you sat on the fidget. Um, so yeah, so robustness is a is a big one for us as well. I think as well, the thing that, you know, the thing that I was really not blasé to but ignorant of was we had a player come home from New Zealand after the World Cup, and I said, How are you settling in? He said, Yeah, it's good, but it's it's dark, it's really dark. And I said, Oh, right, what do you mean? And he said, Oh, well, in the morning I turn off but it's dark, and in the evening when I go home after training, it's pretty much dark. And he's like, I didn't expect it to be so dark. And I said, You know, it's not always like that. And he was like, What? I said, In the summer it's like light till 10 o'clock at night, 11 o'clock at night. And he's like, Oh right. And he hadn't, he hadn't, and he was going, he was going through the tough months of November, December, January, February, thinking, geez, these British guys are miserable because they never see the sunlight. And then and then I see him in a beer garden, you know, in in in the countryside outside of Northampton, having a great time with his wife and kids um at nine o'clock at night because the sun's out and he's having a good time. So it just didn't appreciate that actually, you probably probably could have given him thinking, Oh man, I've got another four months before I can go on holiday and see his sunshine. But you know, he it was just around the corner. So yeah, just just an appreciation of people coming from different parts of the world and having to settle in and some of the some of the elements that are going to impact them.
SPEAKER_01:And that's what you talked about, that you don't necessarily know that stuff until they walk in the door and then they're living in. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01:Well, yeah. We found um just my experience of Leicester exactly the same. I had guys like Craig Newberry and Aaron Major with me, and just it took it, it did that specific example just to hit us a little bit because it would leave training at three o'clock and be dark, and so we'd have to stop in at the Kibworth pub just uh just uh every night just because it felt like the right thing to do, um, which probably isn't super good for professionalism, but um it's super good for your mindset though.
SPEAKER_00:I saw Newbs Craig Newby came in, he's coaching Cambridge, so Newbs came in. Uh we got some guys online at Cambridge, so new noobs came in and we had a chat yesterday, he's a good mile.
SPEAKER_01:He's the top man, got a lot of time for that for that, man. The the hunter extraordinaire. Now, mate, you you you did talk about um the the local boy focus, and I know your club with 70% of your guys coming through the academy. Is that a bit of a culture piece that you've brought in, or has it always been there around Northampton that you want to have that local breathe them through the academy come up? Is that a massive part of culture?
SPEAKER_00:Um yeah, I think it is. There's two things really is one one there's uh um an absolute necessity for it from an from a squad build point of view. You know, we're not we're not a club that's got tons and tons of cash that can go and just sign whoever we want to sign. We've got to be quite careful and shrewd about who we bring into the environment. Um, and so developing our own um is clearly part of the business model, if you like. But probably far more important than that is is interesting. I had a chat with Stuart Lancaster as well. He's unbelievably generous with his time to young coaches, and he had said, he'd sat down with all the Leinster players when he first got there, and he said, When you're a kid growing up, which club did you want to play for? And they all said Leinster. And he said that he said that impact that was incredibly powerful because they were actually playing for a club that they had supported as kids, that they'd seen win stuff, that they'd wanted to be part of that, and their dreams had always been in the blue shirt. And I think you know, Fraser Ding was a great example, he's a brilliant leader within our environment, a very good man. But he I've got pictures of him sat in the stand at games um at knockout games in Europe um when when there's lads playing, there's lads like me playing and James Craig playing and stuff, and so that flow through um of understanding of what the club's all about um is huge, I think, in our environment. So this is the club that they always wanted to play for, um, and they've dreamt of playing for. That's not to say they wouldn't go flat out for another club, obviously, and that's not to say that you know that players coming in from different clubs are giving any less, but I do think it adds to some of the fabric of what we're trying to do.
SPEAKER_01:How how do you how do you how do you make a club or how do you grow something, a place, so that the younger generation want to be there? Is it specific things you do to help?
SPEAKER_00:I mean, I don't know. That's uh to be honest, the club's been going since 1880, and and we lean on that history plenty um with regard to those stories and those chapters each season being a different chapter, and and you get to write that chapter and create your own story. Um so I wouldn't have said that I would have had anything to do with growing the um desire for those players to come and play for it. I think the fact it's been successful in the past obviously, you know, drives people. That's my local club. This is the club that my dad's taken me to watch. This is a club that I want to represent and also win stuff. So I think that's important. I spoke to Dean Ryan a lot about it when I went to Worcester, is Worcester potentially didn't have that rich history in which to lean on, and he was he was trying to create it and he was trying to build that um that's that storyline um uh uh from afresh, which again, like I said before, is not something I've had to do, um, but was an interesting conundrum for him to build that heritage, build those stories. This is this is who the club is, and and this is why it's important for us to represent it in the right way and play well and work hard, all those sorts of elements that you want to build into it. Um you can do that when you've got this really rich history of you know club legends who do incredible stuff um in a saintship.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, you are one of those club legends, 186 games. That is you, whether you like to acknowledge that or not. That definitely brings rapport, respect, and uh a lot of kudos to what you do. And and I I think it's you probably underestimate your impact there because whether you like it or not, the next generation are looking up at this club legend and the way you hold yourself act, what your philosophies and beliefs around culture is, is largely what I would imagine a lot of those guys would just take up because you're doing it. So if you're leaning one way, they'll probably there's a high probability that's where all those young players are looked to, I think. Yeah, would would you sort of agree with that sentiment uh uh begrudgingly? Because I know you're not uh in the customers.
SPEAKER_00:The the what the one thing is it's not about any sort of individual. Um but what but what one of the sayings um is that any organization is a reflection of the figurehead in some ways. The attack is um undoubtedly a reflection of San Besti. Like that is it has his fingerprints all over it. The defence is undeniably a reflection of Lee Radford and and how he wants to defend. And so, yeah, the environment is going to be a reflection of me in some ways, but it's also gonna be a reflection of all the people within it. Um, because it's not it's because it is so nebulous and it is so big that everyone everyone has an impact on each other. Do you see what I mean? All those connections mean no. Um, so yeah, and that's the joy of it, is and that's the reason that you've got such a rich um subject matter to dig into with coaches of all sports, is that it's so hard to define, it's different in every environment, different people do it differently. Um, and and everything I'm saying is purely from my perspective. The the key thing would be actually talk to an academy lad who came in this year and say, How did you find the integration into this environment? Talk to somebody who's been it been in it for 10 years and gonna sit with George Ferdmank as captain and say, You've come to the academy, you've played for England, you've have been unlucky with injuries, you've had good times, bad times, and everything in between. How do you find the environment? I think that would be you know, it's it's hard to measure, but that would be I'd love to know how how that is perceived and how we could tweak that to be you know be better.
SPEAKER_01:I love that, mate. Any organization is a representation of its figurehead. That's a great statement. And like certainly in the way that the Saints play, young, free, passionate, and love with what they do, pretty much sums you up in a lot of ways, too, right?
SPEAKER_00:Um, yeah. I'm not sure my wife would agree with any of those.
SPEAKER_01:Well mate, she's not in it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um you just keep doing the chores uh for the rest of the time. Exactly right. It'll be fine.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly right. Um yeah, I think I think one of the things I think we um I think Sam's particularly good at she's probably a lot probably a lot better than I am, is perspective and understanding um what we're doing. And I think we try we try and always like we always have a saying, like sense of humour goes a long way. Um rugby's pretty mental, you know, and 30 games a year, and it's it's nuts really. Um and I think just to keep your feet on the ground and after a loss, um, to make sure that or a disappointment or you know, something that's not working quite well, is just to make sure that you have some context and some perspective and you take a step back. You're upset, that's something. But you know, we don't want to dwell on that. We've got to take into and that's why when my wife worked at the NHS during COVID, it was pretty, it was really healthy from my point of view, because I'll come back and say, Oh, you know, we lost 10 lineouts, and she said, Oh, you know, two patients died today, and it's like, well, you can get better at the line outs, let's not worry too much. And and um, so when you're in it, you want to be fully in it and you want to be fully immersed and you want to go for it and you want to be emotional about it, but when you're out of it, you've got to step out of it, like you said, and switch off and um understand what it is to uh change it for next time.
SPEAKER_01:I I think just listening to you and some of your aftermatch speeches, particularly some of those ones after you know your heavy losses and in in recent history, like some heavy um half-time change turnarounds, you're pretty composed and you're pretty balanced around um what you say. Is that something you you've you try to be? I've I've been really impressed, mate. Like you're not a guy that dumps it on the players or says that's unacceptable and tears the guys publicly. Is that something you try to avoid and keep that?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I would never, I would never ever and well, never ever, you know, say that, but I it would have to be a a very, very um extreme situation where I'd say anything publicly about one of the players because I don't I don't I'm not sure it's necessary. Um I don't think that me and although people can, you know, and I know coaches do, and I know, you know, I was listening to Wayne Bannett's book um about His use of the media, and I know Eddie's obviously very shrewd in terms of how he um you uses the media to to send messages and to get um to get his point across. But I that's not something I'm necessarily comfortable doing. I would do that personally if if I felt that was necessary. Um but yeah, maybe that's maybe that's a trick that I'm missing. Um and you say compose. I've you know last season I lost my temper at half time more than and it's and it's only effective, I think it's probably effective twice a season, and I lost it more than once last year um at different times, just out of frustration because I know how good the group can be, and we didn't find that consistency. And um and so the players when you say oh Dallas, you're pretty composed, I think they they might um they might they go come into the change room, have a listen to see if you think he's composed. Talking absolute rubbish, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and well you did you did you have mentioned one thing, you've talked uh reference to uh Jekyll and Hyde moments where um with a team with a little bit up and down in some times, and so I'll see highs and lows. Um how have you like reflected, regrouped? How do you keep a consistent message for players and staff and fans around those sort of moments without detracting from anything you're trying to do bigger picture-wise?
SPEAKER_00:Um I think one of the things that I would that I valued as a player from coaches that coach me was consistency, and I think I think that ability to for the players to be themselves, they've got to know to a degree how you're gonna respond and how you're gonna react and what and what you're gonna be like each morning. Um and so I try and so I try and make sure that, and it's hard over a long season, there's obviously lots going on, but I try and be consistent in how I treat people and how I act and how I talk to them. So the consistency I think is something that I value and something that I try and um exhibit, and then and then the rest of it is sort of you know, managing expectations with regards to the the crowd and bits and pieces like that is is just understanding what we can impact, you know. We can impact our performance through our training. So fundamentally everything comes back to training. And what the other thing that we can impact from a performance point of view is is how we think about the game and our mindset, and that's why someone I spent a long time listening to a lot of different podcasts and doing loads of interviews and trying to do plenty of reading on on getting a sports psychologist in because it was something that I felt we were missing, it's something that's really hard to um put into the environment. We we talked to loads of different people from loads of different parts of the world in terms of that, and we we found a guy called Ollie Dixon who you know we've got guys who are really, really good from a physical point of view to get guys ready for rugby. We've got you know some of the best technical coaches in the world, but but fundamentally, as you know, and I'm sure it's how we think about the game, how we reflect on our errors and mistakes and um and the disasters, and and like I said before, this young group, how do we then give them the accountability to make sure that we're we're getting better? And I think um I think his impact on me and and our messaging is has been really marked as well. So I think having somebody with expertise, you know, no shit, um, helps you deliver deliver a more consistent message. Well, what's the problem? But he's but he's but he's been very good, and I think I think his ability to talk to the players um from a really calm position um rather than me, you know. Sometimes I start a meeting thinking I'm gonna be really calm and I start to get more and more emotional and involved, he he can deliver that message throughout and um and he does it very well.
SPEAKER_01:What's been the big what's been the big learning on their front for you? Like what's been one of the big good or bad things that someone like that's taught you is in your role?
SPEAKER_00:Um I think it's very hard to from a mindset point of view to just have one simple solution to any of the problems because everyone everyone is thinking about the game differently and has different things that are happening all the time. And so just to turn around and say we were hesitant because or we were overconfident because some players in the environment were hesitant, no doubt, some players were really overconfident in the same game, and so you put those things together as how do we then actually as a group deliver a message that's relevant to both those those groups, not knowing who's because because no one wants to say I was actually really nervous and I was scared to death of making a mistake. Players just don't want to say that. And a player's not going to go in and go, geez, I thought we were gonna after we scored two early tries, I thought we were gonna kill them. They're not gonna say that either. But you also need to say, listen, what's important, right? It's the intensity of what we do and how we do it. And do do we know what we're doing? Did we go about it the right way? Did we prepare in the right way? Um, and as a coaching group, did we give you the right tools moving into it? So I think it's it's not one size fits all, and there's different people on different journeys, you know, there's guys who are trying to play for the British Lions in England, and there's guys who are trying to get their first premiership start, and I think I think that's a tricky message to sometimes, and I think that's probably what I've learned is not just tying everyone the same brush and going, we're so overconfident, you arrogant wankers, you know, that's not that's probably not the message. Um, and likewise, you know, why are we not swinging for the fences and and being bold in our play? Um, that's probably not the message either. And so trying to make sure something uh unlike this answer, there's something that's not too woolly and far reaching, you know what I mean? It's like trying to hit an L on the head without um without missing it completely.
SPEAKER_01:How do you avoid that sort of scatter gun effect? You know, like just shooting everyone with the same bullet. How do you sort of sniper it down and make sure you're hitting the the shots you want to hit? Is there any way to identify like you talked about there, like you've got guys playing for England, you've got guys making their debut, there's a big disparity on, you know, their their fear, their comfort levels, all that stuff. Do you make any adjustments for that sort of stuff in your environments?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think so. And I think that comes down to how you treat the individual and how how you create confidence, but it also comes down, and we're very good at this as well, in terms of how the senior players interact with those younger players and inexperienced players. So I think that's you know, that's the playing group has a huge impact on that as well. So it's not like you know, my message, you know, is is probably lost in the wash. It's how he feels when Alex Mitchell and Finn Smith are talking to him on the wing. You know, that's what's gonna give him confidence. Um, how he feels when um when Sam Sam is coaching him, that's gonna give him confidence, as as well as you know, standing up and saying one thing in a meeting, you know, that that may give an element of it, but that's not certainly not the most important bit. So I think that the way the individual feels and the way the individual is treated about the people throughout the environment, um, and and that's what will potentially give them confidence and belief.
SPEAKER_01:Um yeah, so our big they treat each other, I'd say we'd be the you say you're you say your players are very good at that sort of stuff, your senior players are very good at that side of things. How has that come about? Is it just natural? A good bunch.
SPEAKER_00:I think because you know, Finn Smith is still only, I want to say, 22. Alex Mitchell's one of our senior guys, and he's 28, I think, 27, 28. So they're not it's not like they're 35-year-old, married, two kids, you know, like like you would walk into an environment and be like, oh man, that guy does not want to talk to me. They're still approachable and they're still on the same level and they're still talking about the same things outside of rugby. So I think that and they've just been through it, they haven't forgotten about what it was like to make debuts and to make the horrible errors in a game and to miss tackles that lead to a loss and all that sort of stuff. Um, or to score the winner, they know what that's like as well, and so you know, to keep people's feet on the floor and all that sort of stuff. So we we try and put a big emphasis on how lads come into the environment, either from abroad and and it's not me saying you've got to take him out for dinner or you've got to do this, you've got to make him feel special. But I said the sooner he feels like an Old Hampton saint, the sooner he's gonna play like one. And so, how how do we make him feel like one? Well, you find out about him. Sam does some great stuff with the backs around my life in five photos, you get their background, you get some stories, you get some understanding around their values, um, and and some of their setbacks as well. Some of the things they've already had to deal with, where their resilience comes from. He's really good at that um in smaller settings, and and you know, we we do that through socializing and making sure that everyone feels part of it, everyone has a role to play, obviously, um, and trying to make sure everyone's on knows what that role is and get stuck into it as quickly as possible.
SPEAKER_01:Do you do that stuff as well? Because I know Sammy does that stuff. Do you do a little bit of that that side of things in your role?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, we do, we do um I I I actually handed it over to the players this year, but we have like sort of introductions to the the players. So I would, you know, this sounds a bit creepy, but when you're signing a player, I'd look at what they put out on social media because that will tell you something about them as a person. And is he a family man? Is he into hunting? You know, what are the things that uh that he's interested in, you know. Um does he like you know, there's all those sorts of things, and so and so I would often see funny stuff and and I would do an introduction to the player and say, This guy's from Fiji, he's interested in this, he's got kids, you know, and that then gives people okay, he's got kids, maybe my kids can go, I can take him out to the softway, you know, on his day off and show him at least where that is and stuff like that. So it gives you some background into what they're into, and then I'd also fundamentally take the piss. Um, and I and I think and just and just that ability to laugh at each other and all that sorts of things. And then this year I handed it over to the players. I said, You've got to choose somebody to introduce you. And so Robbie Smith, who's from Newcastle at uh Falcons back in the day, introduced Callum Chick and Johnny Munger, who played with Danilo Fischetti at London Irish, introduced Danilo and obviously had some stories about him and had some background on him and stuff like that. And I think that introduction that you know what people everyone's willing to be laughed at. There's always some in-jokes, you know, um, is is a sort of welcoming committee that I try and do. Um and then and then it obviously it's easier in smaller groups, so Sam's really good at that, and Tram does diff uh James Craig does different things as well to try and make sure that we're it's not just coaching code, but we're getting to know the lads as well. And then and then straight away you find, you know, in Vino Veritas, we have a social pretty early on, and we find out who you know there's lads who said to me on the call that they don't know when I'm doing recruitment calls, they don't drink, and then the first social turns out they do. Um and that's always interesting. Um so yeah, so I think you know, sometimes just doing something social um gives us a good impact and an insight into what people like.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I still I still love the this this underlying thing that comes through is that sense of humour with you blokes. Um and and Sammy was talking about before that they were you were thinking about releasing sheep in uh before one game, and each mini-team had to chase sheep round the field, and last one to get their sheep back in the team room had to do something stupid. But it's just as much as that sounds like a silly off the wall sort of thing, it's actually building connections, isn't it? Like, and it's actually creating an environment of laughter and and and fun, and that's what you sort of it's part of what you want a Saints man to be to actually enjoy what you're doing, enjoy turning up. It's a big part of it, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, massively, yeah. I think but I think as well, so certainly from my experience, and I'd be interested to know if it is the same when you've obviously played in different clubs, is the team that's playing most weeks, and then there's the team that's training and pushing those levels and driving it. And there's been times where never those two will meet really unless there's injury or other bits and pieces. And so the mini-team thing where everyone goes into different teams, regardless of age, experience, caps, you know, anything, they're in their own little team and they socialise in those teams anyway. So that might be going out for a meal together, it might be competing as five-a-side, it might be doing all these different things. But one, we're practicing competing, and two, we're actually creating bonds between players that don't always spend a lot of time together. Um, and so and so we have, and then then it becomes tradition. So we always have Rob Horn had said that when he was at the Warriors, I think, um, they'd had a staff relay, and so every time we play Leicester away is the staff relay, and they do a pick is like a big pick. Oh yes. And so you're the last pick and all this, and then they video it and they just basically abuse us for being old and fat. Um, and so that's always Lester Away is staff relay. Uh in Newcastle, there's always an eating challenge for Treb Davison. You know, there's always that's that's the thing. Every year, Newcastle away is this, every Christmas there's a Christmas plate, you know, there's all these sorts of things, and it becomes tradition. And actually, what I'm saying to lads is don't ever don't ever stop competing. Like it might be it might be a you know a build a cup challenge or build a Lego thing as quickly as you can, but I want you to try and win it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Because you're practicing competing as well. Now we all take the mick and there's some ridiculous games come out, like some shit some mental games, and luckily nobody's been hurt yet. But you know, when when the golf's on, we might have a golf competition, when the tennis is on, we might do something tennis-wise, and I think it just keeps it a bit fresher, it keeps those boys um interacting with different groups, yeah. Um and and those mini teams have have sort of stuck with it because sometimes it can be a bit forced, but I think we try and make it um a good laugh and and we try and make sure that the boys are competing and and enjoying it as well.
SPEAKER_01:It it is important, isn't it? When when for those that don't know those sort of the lengthy 30 plus seasons, it does become a grind. As much as you love the sport, it's tough, isn't it? Like it's the same old stuff, it's physical, it's wet and cold, and you just got to get through it. So those little events are like the little little beacons of light, aren't they? That just keep it giving you enough to just keep you going, to keep your that level of enjoyment up that keeps you turning up to go the next day, right?
SPEAKER_00:And and making sure you feel part of the group and that you have a role to play. And we talk about I say it all the time for lads. Everyone has a role to play. It might not be the role you want at the moment. You know, you you you might not want to be the guy who drives the training level because you're not playing again, but your role is integral, and that's why you know I I try and make a huge I I don't try, I do, because I respect it and I value it hugely. Is the guys who don't play are the guys that I would really try and rally around. If you're playing every week and and you're playing well and you're enjoying yourself, then you know life is good. If you're not playing every week and you're not achieving what you set out to achieve, and you're not happy about um where you are, you're you're the person that actually drives the training level. You know, you're the person who's actually the you know, and so the two the two guys that I always picked out the year won the league was um Joel Matavesi and Tom Cruise because they didn't play a lot of rugby, but the impact they had playing playing and training and pushing and and being unbelievably positive in the environment was huge, and that that invariably had an impact. That was their role to play. It wasn't the role they wanted. Tom Cruise wanted to play games, um, Joel Matt wanted to play games, but at that time they weren't selected and they went for it and they um and I and I'd have tremendous respect for that. And a lot of people wouldn't see that from the outside, but in 10 years' time and 20 years' time when we meet up or have reunions or whatever, people will know. And I think I think while even that.
SPEAKER_01:That's that's a character trait, is what you talked about earlier, isn't it? That's what you're looking for.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Yeah, good, very good man.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I always I always remember a great um and he won't mind me saying this, Jason Spice um wasn't getting picked for a long time. Um he's like not playing, and uh he was a bit dark and sour at the start, and then he he confided to me one day that he he said to himself, he sat down and he worked out um what his daily rate was, you know, like pay rate. And then he goes, This is what I'm getting paid per day to hold a tackle bag at training. He goes, geez, I I I better be a bloody good tackle bag holder.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And he took that approach to it, and I just thought it was a lovely shift of mindset, just to actually be grateful for for where you are, what you're doing, and just go, actually, if I'm gonna be in this role, let's be the be goddamn best I am at this role. And it's yeah, and he said, as soon as he started doing that, then he actually started getting more leeway and got picked more, and you know, and then it opened up the other way because it was just leaving such a good mark on the coaches.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and they and they talk about I mentioned perspective earlier and also the gratitude, like you said, there, of actually running around and messing about with the lads playing rugby. It's sometimes it sometimes does grind you down. It's monotony of the season, but like you said, you have to have some step away and take some perspective of of what else you could be doing um and what else you could be. So yeah, fair play to Spider.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, hey, and yourself, have you ever had any failures, mistakes that have helped shape the way you lead?
SPEAKER_00:I had nothing but failures. Um come on, mate, fire out from one failure to the next. Um Yeah, no, I've had I mean the most disappointing things is when you don't see it coming. So I had a player knock on my door late on in the season and like really good player, really good man, loved him. Uh I still do, he's he's a great lad. Um and he said, I want to leave, I'm triggering my break clause, and I signed somewhere else. And it honestly was a thunderbolt because I was like, I just didn't see it coming. Um and he and he and he basically just said, I just feel like um I've not been spoken to, I've not um not valued in the environment, don't feel like I'm getting what I need, etc. etc. etc. And and it was just a bit like oof, that that was a bit of a shocker to me that I'd obviously just because he was playing regularly, he's playing really well, super well as well. Um was was one of the best players and a real leader in our environment. And I just thought, hey, he's in a great space. Like I said before, I'll go and make sure these other lads who aren't getting what they need get what they need, and that and um yeah, it was a massive oversight, and it was something I then I then had um in my office I had a picture put up of every single player within the squad with a little with a little space, like a whiteboard effectively, with their face on, printed by a local printer, and I would um have notes next to them, you know, in terms of when he's back from injury or how many games he's played. And I'd look at that board sometimes on a Monday and just make sure I hadn't touched base with him. You can't have 10 minutes each week with all of them because that's 600 minutes. It's sorry, 6,000 minutes. It's like it's just too much. Um, you can't spend individual time with all of them, but you have to make sure that these guys are still feeling part of the group, regardless of what they're doing, whether they're top of the tree or they're coming through the academy. And so I try occasionally just to make sure I look at that board and go, actually haven't spoken to James Rand for ages. I haven't sat down with him, he's been injured, um, he's just got engaged. I need to go and sit down with him and just have a yarn with him and make sure that he still feels part of the group, or guys out going out on loan, going out on loan, tough, tough gig, man. That you know, they want to play for Northampton and you turn up Tuesday, Thursday nights at Bedford, at Cambridge, at rugby uh Lions, at Leicester Lions, sorry. Um, so you just gotta make sure you keep those guys involved because I got burnt so badly with that, and I really regret not um not seeing that sooner. And it was just such a it was such a shock, it was blindsiding me. So I was yeah, disappointed in myself on that one.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I I I love the um I I love the bounce back from that is like actually make sure it doesn't happen again by going to a printer and designing something to ensure that you had uh something in front of your face which you couldn't miss, right? So then it was it staring you flat in the face, the front of mind, couldn't miss it.
SPEAKER_00:Love that you get distracted by so many other things, and then and then you you've you've spent three weeks and you haven't you haven't taken the time just to ask how players getting on, and that was that was poor for me from my management point of view. But um I'm sure a lot of the players are probably thinking I'd wish Dallas would leave me alone and not talk to me. But shut up, guys. Stop telling me what I'm trying to do.
SPEAKER_01:Mate, what is the difference like from coaching to director rugging at Saints? What does it look like in your in your environment?
SPEAKER_00:The difference. Um you you know Sam, you play with Sam and you've obviously coached with him. He he's head coach and he looks after everything that goes on the grass. Um time we spent on attacks, time we spent on defence, to what we're doing around the breakdown, how how we coach and tackle technique. Um obviously James Craig's in charge of all the light. And so you've got to let the bakers bake, you know, you've got to give them, I give them as much runway as possible, and then what I would do is I'd watch everything, listen to everything, and I and I would pick holes in everything, basically, and just challenge on everything that I possibly could. Um, and sometimes Sam would say, Yeah, I think that was valid, but I've done it for this reason. And sometimes he'd say, You're a forward, shut up. But but he's but he's happy to say that, you know, and I'm happy to take that and go, Well, okay. So I'd so I would try and push hard on what I'm seeing in games, what I'm seeing in training, what I'm seeing from individuals, and sometimes they pick that up, sometimes they don't. Um, and that's absolutely fine as well. And then everything else is just you're just dipping into all sorts of different stuff. A lot of the time it's on recruitment, um, the media, um, managing up to the CEO and the board and presenting to them, um, making sure that the staff are um are feeling part of that group as well, making sure that's running smoothly, the scheduling, how we travel to and from training, how we messaging during games, there's all this sort of stuff that I just want to take away from the coaches because they'll they want to be on the grass doing that. Um so yeah, so I basically feel like I dip into loads of different things and have a real good oversight of the whole overarching business, whether it's community, the corporate, all this sort of stuff. But don't have a don't have a remit on anything. You know, when you're a lineup coach, which is what I did before, you know percentage-wise where you are in the league. Yeah. Did you win lineups? Did you defend more? What do you need to work on? And it's really accurate. And I have a really good relationship with Alex Coles and the other lineup callers, and you know, we can share that. You then take a step back from a management point of view, and I don't see Colsey as much, and and you know, that's the relationship slightly changes, and you're also making decisions on selection, so then that relationship slightly changes. And so you just take a step back from that face-to-face immediate feedback, um, and you get into a management role effectively. Um, but I enjoy that variety, and I enjoy, you know, sitting in meetings with um the PRL around how the fixture list has worked, all those sorts of things. Um, the referees, all those bits and pieces. I try and make sure that all the players have to worry about is playing, all the coaches are coaching and everything else. Um, you know, everything else works along in the background along with the team manager and um our head of uh recruitment and retention and make sure we're getting the right people in through the door, really.
SPEAKER_01:Mate, I love it. And certainly, mate, I I just I just love that the broad broad scope of that is actually outstanding. Like the jack of all trades is is kind of what it is, and just ensuring that those that are doing their job are doing it as best they can.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I've got what they need, really. But I think the the problem with that is then you feel that you're actually jack of all trades, and you know, I'm actually doing anything, you know, am I being effective with my time? You know, what what should I be doing at this period of time and and how how should I influence our scrum defense and what do we think about, you know, and so sometimes it does become a little bit like, you know, what are you being measured on in terms of this, that, and the other? But as long, as long as we're getting what we need from an environment point of view, from a coaching point of view, and from a recruitment point of view, then you just got to keep those wheels spinning, I think. Yeah, that's just and that was something Boyddy Boyd. The the best thing about it was that the transition from Boyd to me was utterly amicable. I wasn't parachuted into a new environment. Like you said, I had the whole history, I knew the playing group, I knew all the staff. Boydy gave me tons and tons of advice around what it was to be a DOR as opposed to a coach, and so that transition was relatively smooth. There's still some bumps in the row. I just mentioned one before, but you know, very fortunate. It's not like you've just been like you see the football managers, you know, Sean Dych going into Nottingham Forest today. He's got no the playing group, he doesn't know the history, doesn't yet he doesn't know all those sorts of elements, and so I think you're very fortunate that that was an evolution rather than being dropped in.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, uh, I think in history would would back that up too, even like the examples of Scott Robinson with the Crusaders. He came in in seven in a row, but but often what's not seen is he had all that runway beforehand where he played for the team for a long time, coached every division through the age group all the way, so he knew that how everything worked, knew the bits where he had to come and go. That needs to change, that needs to change, and they were all right because he had that history, similar to what you have and and that knowledge, and people looked up to him because he knew the environment and was able to make the right changes at the right time. It it it is fascinating what you say about it's hard to measure though, right? Like it's yeah, it's not like a line out coach, you haven't got that you know stat to say this is where you are. It's yeah, you could be doing everything right, but the team's coming mid-table. And am I doing everything right? Who knows?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So that's that yeah. And that's where that feedback, and just for your own insight, mate, is people when you when when I talk to the coaches and things about you, the feedback is always mate, doing tops. And and that's what you want. You want your the people that are under your tutelage and care, you want them to be your biggest cheerleaders. And certainly when I talk to players and coaches about yourself, it comes back in space, mate, that what you're doing is bang on at that club. And I reckon it's it's a joy to see. And the way they play too, as you said earlier, any organization is a representation of its figurehead, and that's you, mate, with the way they play. Uh, mate, for last question. It's been about an hour, mate. We'd like to keep it an hour so you can get back to doing all those chores you've got to get on your day off. Um, and the question is this mate, what's one belief about culture that you believe in that you reckon your peers would disagree with?
SPEAKER_00:Um the only I I again this was a question that you sent me and I thought about it a lot and I thought around the culture doesn't necessarily have to be healthy. Oh, sorry, it doesn't necessarily have to be healthy to be effective. And by healthy I mean conforming to societal norms, you know. We I played at a club which was you know for that period of time was relatively successful and and it had like a mob mentality, and if you weren't with it, you're against it. And um, and there's some players who literally got spat out of the back. And I'm and I'm sure it's and I and I I think it's more of a older generation sort of thing, but who who didn't survive it, you know, and and and went on to do different things, and from a modern society point of view, where everyone needs to be valued, everyone needs to be heard, it just it just wasn't it wasn't seen as that, and it was like either you you're in or you're out, and if you're out you're a long way out, and we're we're going this way, and it was um, and I don't think and and I think that's fairly obvious, but I I also think it's something that to be mindful of is that it doesn't have to be pretty to be effective. Um there's different there's loads of different ways of doing it, obviously, there's so many different ways, and that's why I love going into different environments, and that's why I see guys get jobs in the England under 20s or in the England environment who then get to go and visit all these clubs. I would love to go around and do that. I'd love to go around NHL teams and see how they deal with that, and they play so many games, it's such a physical sport. I'd love to see what that look like. Because there's so many different ways of doing it, you know, and that's why again, why your subject matter is so rich is because there's no one way to define it.
SPEAKER_01:I do agree with you, mate, on that one that I think it's like it's it can be messy. Any, any like you look at some of the best and and most enjoyable family time moments. It's not the moments when you're all sitting around having a nice dinner at a restaurant, it's it's some of those messy times where there's yelling, and that's a bit on this like in my own household when we've got four kids and when sort of they're gone and you know away on camps and things, and you just miss the sort of like the the shit on the floor and like all the toys, it just seems like no one's living in this house. We've got this massive house and just feels empty and hollow and and and not quite whole. Um and then when they come back, you actually embrace it, you go, Yeah, this is what we're talking about. Look at all the shit on the floor, like who's left their undies here and all this stuff? And that that's the joy of it. And then it becomes these from those chaotic moments, you that's when you find out all these sort of funny bits and you can start hassling and bit of banter about someone always doing this thing, and you create these quirks, and and it doesn't have to be this perfect thing that's feel good all the time. You've got to make it what it is for you, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
SPEAKER_01:Love it, love it, mate. That is that is our podcast, mate, and and I'd like to finish off, if I may, with my three kind of takeaways that I that I got from this conversation with you. So, number one, mate, was this phrasing that coming from your mentor and one of the first guys that helped elevate you into your coaching and your journey at Northampton Saints was Chris Boyd, is you can't expect to learn new things if you don't let people in. And I love that. You said you can't operate in a vacuum. You've got to reach out, try new people, bring them into the environment and see what they say, see what they do, see what they feel about you. Ask yourself, what do we need? What are we missing? And bringing those people in to just give that different perspective. And I think it's a big one in any team you're coaching is to not stay in a little vacuum, not to stay in your own orbit, but to expand and see what else is out there. Number two, I love this phrase: any organization is a representation of its figurehead. And I think as much as we wouldn't always want that as a mother and father, that your children are representations of you and your attitudes and your beliefs, there is a massive Massive degree of truth to that, and even more so in a rugby team. And the way you do things is the way that the people underneath you, your players particularly, are probably going to do things as well. So everything you do is being watched, even the unseen things. And I think that's a really important concept to remember as a coach. Number three, and this is probably one of my favorite, my favorite points that people have made on this podcast, or a person has made, is a sense of humor goes a long way. And I think that is absolutely massive. And we don't say it enough, that comedy and laughter is such a joyous thing and it welcomes connection. And you made the point about your wife making a real human and life statement about no one died today when she she works at the hospital. And that puts it in perspective. So when we're talking about line outs and rucks and those sort of things, to also remember to laugh along the way and play the games with sheep and getting them back into the team room quick is actually something which keeps us turning up, keeps us enjoying what we do, and keeps us a little bit grateful for the fact that we get to play a game for a living. Phil Delson, what a pleasure it's it is to have you uh mid-season and a very successful one so far with from the Northampton Saints chatting on the Coaching Culture podcast.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you.