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Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Augustine Pulu: How Coaches Can Create Monsters!
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They don't they built like just monsters they um just the way we trained, the way the way we played, like man, the the trains were even were harder than the games. More here every week is like look at them. They're tired, they're tired, their hands on these. That's that's what we used to look for cues, just like they built us like just dogs, a culture that was um was all about habits, actions, living to their like standards. Started from the first day. When family comes up, you're like, it's more more of a punch. And it's one of those ones, it's one of those ones like, man, he's asking for my family and stuff. I'll I'll run through the wall for this guy, you know? And that's that's how that's how Polynesian boys are like, man. Like, if you want the best out of them, it's you further there. The struggles that I've been through, like running off a broken leg, it wasn't gonna stop me like when my mind was dedicated to something on like or me against the world. That was the mentality from young.
SPEAKER_00:Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring, I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Augustine Polu. Augur has been a pro player since 2009, 16 years and still going, including 73 games for counties in New Zealand, 51 for the Chiefs, 37 for the Blues, including including a stint as captain, seven years in Japan, and tests for both the All Blacks and Tonga, where he's currently still involved. Aug is a player I've had the privilege of coaching, and to this day stands as a player that I respect hugely for what he does on the field and also what he does offer, the way he grows himself as a man and his family on the other side of the game. Orgi, welcome to your very first podcast here on the Coaching Culture Podcast.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you for my flowers, mate. Yeah, nah, this is the first one, like you said. You know, I've always tried to kind of run away from all these kinds of stuff, but I thought, you know, uh I always fucking always love to to uh to chat with VO, so I look forward to seeing how this goes.
SPEAKER_00:Mate, I love it. So for a bit of context before we begin, mate. We we were together at Pino Rugby Club in Japan, which is a truck company, and we were there through those COVID periods. So when everything was shutting down, we had all those restrictions, we got to know each other pretty well. You were captain, I was coach, and we we had to deal with a lot of stuff at that time, right, mate.
SPEAKER_01:We can we can be here for a couple of years talking about these kind of stuff, but nah, it was a it was a good experience. Um especially the COVID time being in in Japan, hey. Like yeah, there were some tough times being in Japan. We got into um trainings, being away from family, and cutting into your mates. A lot of times we were doing this.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we were, right? Having uh coaching conference calls uh over Zoom with with all the people that could speak English.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And and it wasn't just the COVID, was it, mate? There was like all sorts of the company was in turmoil, there's all sorts of um, you know, issues with the company, some scandals involving emissions with their trucks and things like this on a bigger piece that we had to deal with the repercussions of some of that and some off-field stuff around some of our players during that COVID. It was gee, it was testy, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, bro. It was uh some trials and tribulations thing and and you know, um, you know, it comes, it came with blessings being in Japan and all that kind of sort, but man, like, yeah, that there was some tough period of time for the boys. I think they're still recovering now, especially with the Japan culture. Like, they don't really kind of they always remind you every every year at the beginning, the first day, what's happened in the past and you know what not to do and what to do. But that's you know, it's um on the bright side of things is being the underdog, eh? You know, going and playing against, you know, the bigger teams and just giving a best shot. That was the that was the the you know the the cool thing about being in Japan.
SPEAKER_00:I love it, mate. And I think um the listeners already, mate, will just sense the kind of bloke you are when you're talking about the blessing and the bright side of things. You certainly embody that, mate, in terms of you're always able to flick and see the good side of stuff. Now, mate, I I'd like to start with this question, mate. How do you define culture? Defining culture.
SPEAKER_01:I remember listening to um to someone speak about it, and he made it really easy to kind of understand. And I was like, man, but here he goes, people like us do things like this way. That was that's how he started, and I was like, oh, that's pretty. And it's you know, the funny culture to me is like, you know, actions, habits, it's it's like a way of living, I could say. The way you treat people, it's like a you know, like a set of rules that you you kinda you kind of built, and then you know, the other side has to commit to it, and it's it's it's it's living to something that's higher than than ourselves. I think um that that's what if if you put it to a team uh view of things, is that's how you know you built you you know you build a good culture, you get a a winning circle, then you know, if it's it's not a a good culture, then it gets you know a bit toxic. Yeah. You know, because the end of the day we we do it, we we try to put these build a good culture to we can um just to win, to be honest. Like every every team, you know, at the beginning of the years is always talking about how we're gonna um get a hold of that, you know, that cup or the shield. So this for me for culture is it's just um way of living, I guess.
SPEAKER_00:I love it, mate. Living to something higher than yourselves.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and that set of because you're right, every every rugby team and every sports team starts off with winning as the ultimate outcome, right? But then to to get to go backwards on that, it's that the set of rules that you commit to that are gonna get you there. Yeah. And that way you live every day. I love it, mate. What sort of thought examples, Huggs? Do you do you talk about when you think about things higher than your yourself? What sort of examples would that be in a in a good-looking culture that you've had?
SPEAKER_01:I could say, like, you know, when we're uh down at the Chiefs 2012 and 13, uh the two years that we won back-to-back uh the super man, just uh the culture that we built down there from from scratch. Um we Dave Rennie, Wayne Smith, Tom Coraci, Straws were there the coaches back at that time, and they they made us build, you know, our our gym from scratch. So we were in there during preseason getting, you know, a bit of our our hands-on into making this gym that we've moved into. Because at the time we were Chiefs was based at Waikato Stadium, but then we moved over to we found a new place and we had to build everything on scratch. So they got us us as you know, we'll we'll we'll do training, we'll do all our strength and that when there'll be like a dedicated time where us players go in there and rip up the walls and you know, clean up. So that's that's something that I can remember that kind of like I was like, oh man, this is this is like uh this is different compared to anywhere else at all.
SPEAKER_00:So you actually physically as your team, you'd you'd go in there with a hammer and tools and still be someone saying, right, I build that white weight track here and knock out that wall, and you actually you actually fashion your environment as a team, like you physically got on the tools as a professional.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We we we we didn't really get on like you know, we didn't um put all the the racks and stuff because you know I'm sure they'll be waiting for quite a bit. It was you know during preseason, so um, it was more just smashing down the walls, you know, grabbing all the all the rubbish that's been, you know, the walls that's been broken down, ticking it out, dumps and stuff like that. And when you look around, when you look around, you're like everyone's into it. You know, you're seeing your leaders like at the front. And it's for for a young bloke like myself, it's like, hey, man, that's someone, that's someone that I look up to on the field, you know, and this is what he's doing off the field. Like, man, this is something that I want to be a part of. You know, so that that really had a massive um thing into to myself.
SPEAKER_00:And and what does it do to you when like is it was was it sold to the team or why you're doing it? Or did would just a couple of leaders say, right, we're gonna help out here? Or was it no?
SPEAKER_01:It was it was pretty much man, I remember I remember 2012, our first meeting, our first meeting uh same St. Peter um college in Hamilton, St. Peter's St. Paul's, and the first thing that we seen was the the Crusaders team. That was the first thing that we we sat, we were sitting in the meetings. That was the first thing that popped up on the wall. And then we picture of the Crusaders rugby team. Yeah, so you're with the Chiefs, and the Chiefs for my first year, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And the first picture that the coaches showed was a picture of the Crusaders.
SPEAKER_01:The Crusaders team. They were like, What do you see here? And then all we seen was like, oh, there's there's about I think at the time it was 23 or all blacks um and their whole squad. And I think I think they paid the finals the the year before, and there was about I think about 19 of them. There was the whole All Blacks team. So they kinda they kind of like these are the guys that we we have to if we want out, you know, face them to win the championship, these are the guys that we have to accept that we can beat them. So and I'm I'm just sitting there like holy, like so that man, that's why like being down at the Chiefs at those years, just like they don't they don't like just monsters, um just ha the way we trained, the way the way we played, like man, the the trainings were even were harder than the games, I remember. But you know, like we're going back to you, um like you said, like what what did I see? I was just seeing a culture that was um was all about habits, actions, living to their standards. But it started from the first day.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, I think there's something special in that, mate. Like, like it's it would be rare that on your first meeting as a set of coaches, you would put up one of the opposition team and just show the picture of that. And kind of what I think it shows is like you're almost normalizing it, and you're putting when you put up and you say the obvious, like here's, and then it just sets a benchmark, you start talking about okay, and then it just deflates it a little bit.
SPEAKER_01:But I think it's a really interesting tactic for a for a good group of coaches to do it was pretty puzzling because like while you're training and when when you're in those trenches, like that's the thing that's in your in your mind, they've implanted that. So while like it's when it's tough, they're just calling it, they're just calling it like if you want to be champions. So it's they don't have to like you know fizzly say like it's the crusaders, but at the back of them at the back of our minds, that's the first thing we see. The way we train, man, that was like crazy. Like everyone, even like the boys, when we get together, we just talk about those years.
SPEAKER_00:Like how hard and did you did you love the hardness of that?
SPEAKER_01:Like at the time, no, it was tough, bro. It was real tough. But like when it gets to game day, man, you're like looking across more here every week. It's like, look at them. They're tired, they're tired, their hands on knees. That's that's what we used to look for, cues, just like they built us like just dogs.
SPEAKER_00:Well, that's interesting, isn't it? That you've created a culture. Like, I love that phrase, they built monsters, the coaches built monsters, and they did everything to like reinforce that so that showing the opposition there's where we're getting to, making you work harder than everyone else, teaching you how to look for cues of weakness in opposition.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, man, that was it. That was it. And then the it was so good because the coaches and the leadership were so aligned, like even unlike uh Liam Messim will always look or always um check us, body language, body language. So we'll always have to, you know, stand up, no hands on knees, was always like looking, making sure that we look in the like looking each other in the eye, just to get that connection. You know, when when we're tired and stuff, it's you're connected and man, yeah, those years were golden years that I've like I've picked so much tools that I've you know I still use to today.
SPEAKER_00:What do you got for us, Hugs?
SPEAKER_01:What sort of tools do you keep in your No just regarding to the way the way I train, the way I hold accountable to myself and the way I present myself with preseasons and and all that kind of stuff. Just being professional, you know, uh being kind to to your teammates. There was a lot of of lot of like now it was my first year, so you know, usually your first year, you kind of you kind of get um kind of get taught, you know, this is how things work around here and all that kind of stuff. So um like you say, man, it's it's important to put you know your your children to the right school or because you know they're your their friends, it's the way they're gonna be in the future.
SPEAKER_00:So Yeah. Mate, and so so just I th mate, I think those are really interesting words. The the contrast between being professional and kind. Were were you not those before?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, did you or did you just grow them in that because is that what I think I yeah, I think I started I've oh the kindness, the kindness was always um I don't know, I've I think my yeah, my parents they did the like a real um pleasing job on us as as children. All my brothers are are pretty pretty humble to say I wouldn't consider myself humble, I wouldn't say that to myself, but I would love to. Um yeah, we just always had um just because I see my parents caring, um, especially my old man, my old lady, like they they always pull others before themselves. Um and that's just something that I grew up knowing as kind of like catering for others than you know, and myself, because I know that there's something high that always gonna take care of me, so it's I should be all good.
SPEAKER_00:And that's the fate aspect you're talking about? You got a strong thing.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's that's the faith, that's the faith side of things. Yeah, that's that's that's a massive part of who I am today. How does it keep you accountable, man? I think it goes back down to like the culture, like you said, you know, it's something that you that you live for, that's something that's hired in yourself. Um as you know, like at the start, we say like I said I I said I was a Christian, but you know, I was still you know getting wasted and all that kind of stuff. And the more that I grew up, um matured and you know, having having a strong wife and and faith, um kind of kind of opened my eyes up, like not actually living a Christian life or living a, you know, to the actions and the habits as as Christians. And like we're not we're never gonna be perfect, but I think like how we were back then is way different to how I'm today.
SPEAKER_00:Did you think, well, when you're looking back, did you think sort of those excellent professional environments helped spark that sort of change or that click when you're talking about those environments?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, man, 100%. Just being around uh guys like uh Sonny, Sam Nomar Williams, the captain, 2012, 13, they miss him, like bro, there's so many leaders. Aaron Cruzan, they're just they're good people, man. They're good people, they they're kind, they're real professional, but they help, you know? They help. They we build a culture, like it didn't matter who was in that jersey, we're backing them 100%. Like we will do at the time was me, Kabalo, Brina Leonard. Yeah, good, good stuff. When when Brina Lennard went down on the first game against the uh uh Highlanders, man, I was the next one up and like they were there on my side the whole time, like, hey, but you're you're meant to be here. You're you know, they help. Is there anything that you need to you need to do? Do you is there anything that we can help with during the week? And that's like, man, it's um so we'll we'll compete for their jersey, but when that person gets caught up for it, we'll one on the flip side of just you know preparing them to the best of their abilities so they can get the result that we'll after is a as effective as a team.
SPEAKER_00:Mate, that's a that's a um it's a really cool statement. A lot of great teams with great cultures have that. It doesn't matter who's starting or not, you're always backing the others and your team. And that's not something which should be there in a lot of ways, right? Like if if you're not playing, you're essentially not doing your job, you're not doing what you're there to be paid for. But how does an environment help flick that to make it, oh well, how do you shift that, mate? How do you shift that mentality, like the disappointment of not playing to then letting it go and then helping your mates?
SPEAKER_01:It's tough, man. Like it's like even to know, because I'm so competitive, right? We're all can competitive. Like when you don't when you don't start, when you don't play in there, it's like you try to find ways of like, you know, I think for me as as a young Polynesian boy at the time, like it's it's so hard to go and talk to the to the coaches and see why you're not playing and stuff. But the the best thing about being down there at the time was like if you want to play and want to know why you're not playing, then you come and knock on our door. And they open those, so they kind of open those doors up for open relationship, going there and and saying, hey, you've you've you've told me to do this and do that. I've done this, and why am I not getting back now? And they'll be like, he has like he's T Gabby, he's still playing well, and all that. You'll be like, you just have to wait for the opportunity. And it's back on you now to carry on what you've done. So you're not just ticking those boxes off and then you're back in a couple of weeks, you're, you know, you're not doing it again. So you gotta keep on continuing it until you actually make the team. So you gotta wait for the jersey to kind of have like a you know, for them to have a bad game or get injured or for you to get your opportunity. So that that was something that they built that was like cool.
SPEAKER_00:It's quite a nice phrase, Oogie, that uh coaches can say it's just it's time to wait for your opportunity. It just keeps you it keeps the dogs hungry, right? That's part of that. Yeah, bro, but bro, I'd say the sentiment you're creating.
SPEAKER_01:Uh I tell you, the jerseys don't get given, like the yeah, you gotta like um I think the first year I won was earn the right to wear the jersey. That was the slogan for the team, earn the right to the game. Yeah, earn the right. Yeah, that's everything we'll do if it's if it's um if it's mini team games, it's full on. It's full on. Like when I say full on, it's like getting into like scruffles. And these are like, you know, these are your Monday games that you're meant to just you know build back into the week. Nah, man. Back back then it was like we'll compete for any everything.
SPEAKER_00:Nah, that's cool. And the coaches drove that?
SPEAKER_01:They drove that, they drove that, the players drove it. Um the Tuesday sessions, they're they're pretty test days. Thursday sessions, every day, like um, once the team gets named, you see guys just stripping up. Game, like the guys that's not playing, it's like this is their game day. So Thursday is our like usually, you know. So and it's full-on shots, like and and how's it encouraged?
SPEAKER_00:Like, do the coaches drive it? Do they they sort of get in there and say, this is test match? Do they don't need to because the players do it?
SPEAKER_01:I think this is I think that's the difference, eh? Like the coaches I've obviously as a coach, um you can you can kind of like differ out on what you want, but it really depends on on us players, and that's why it's you know a massive um shout out to the to the leaders at the time. Like they they drive it um really well. It wasn't them, it was it was like a collective thing. Like at the start, they this is this is the way we this is the way we are. This is how the like this is the way we train. If you like it, if you don't like it, grab your bag, scap it. So bro, it will be it'll be full on, it'll be like fights, it'll be fights every training.
SPEAKER_00:I love that, mate, because it probably the general public don't appreciate how sort of brutal the game is sometimes that professional of you having fights. Like it's just that's gonna happen because when you got people sl trying to hit each other hard, you're gonna get it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, it's you know, it's sometimes sometimes you know, like give a pass and it's free, two, one, smack.
SPEAKER_00:Isn't it a lovely environment too, though, that you can actually get smack someone? There's a little bit of a scuffle on a fight, and then very quickly after it's it's like nothing at all, isn't it? It's like part of that you're actually helping me by doing this. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Uh number one, number one fighter in our team was Bundy Aki, too. So uh he if he's not playing, oh that's that was him. Yep, game date, game date. I love it, man. Man, he'll be just trying to smoke people and he'll get into after that, after after the you know, end of it, we have our huddle and stuff, then it's you know, hug it out.
SPEAKER_00:Mate, it it's uh it's a beautiful thing to remember like around this sport, that it's whilst it's a physical sport, it's got some good values, and the values of the sport is you go hard and whatever happens on the field, it's it's dropped pretty quick. And you learn that resilience, the it's nothing personal, it's just the game, right? And then you have a handshake, have a knuckles, have a hug. Pretty much the moment that it finishes, and it's like nothing ever happened, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, bruh, it is, man.
SPEAKER_00:I personally think it's it's a wonderful trait of rugby that it teaches a lot of resilience. Like the the point of the game is to knock other people down, and the point of the game is to get back up again, and how quick can you get back up? How can you go again whilst having these physical hurts? And rugby players I reckon have an amazing ability to be resilient because their profession is all about taking knocks and going again physically. Yeah, but it's not just the physical, mate. There's a lot of emotional stuff when you take uh when someone gets in a fight with you. There's a lot of emotional things which you have to deal with and regulate about yourself, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Talking about that, mate, like I love that you just mentioned for Polynesian boys it's hard to go young Polynesian men to go talk to the coach is a hard thing. Why do you reckon that is?
SPEAKER_01:I think it's just the way we'd we've been taught um at our ho at home. As Polynesians, you know, we're we're taught to then talk to the elders, talk back to the elders. If you want something, you know, we we it's pretty it's it's pretty hard for us to go and ask. So we kinda we kinda um take that in into our into work. Um we don't want to disrespect them by going and asking women or playing. It's it's not normal for us. And that's something that I had to kind of um I had to to learn along the way that um we do have a voice you know and asking is is is it's just you going to see why you're not playing because you want to play, you know. But for us is Well looking at the other side of it, it's like I wouldn't want to disrespect them. But I think the coach is like, hey, what is there anything that we can why am I not playing this weekend? Or is there anything that I can do to play? It's just having the courage to go speak.
SPEAKER_00:How did those coaches, you said they left the door open physically and metaphorically, for you to be able to do that? What how does a coach help particularly pot young Polynesian players that may be struggling with that sort of r respect aspect? How do they encourage and open that door a little bit better so that it's easier?
SPEAKER_01:Um at the time they what they did really well was that they dedicated times, slots, so you gotta go in there and you know write it. You know, obviously if you don't if you don't um do your times, you're most likely you're not gonna play if you don't go and see the coaches.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, like it's a dedicated one-on-one two. Yes. So made it compulse made it compulsory first.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:You know, open comms with you and the coaches and all that kind of stuff. And then it just built into, you know, a few years down the track, you really built that that that uh that connection with your coaches that you can go and speak to them um and ask them uh, you know, what are things that you need to work on to play, or um what are a few things that can make my game even better. I think that was like a massive shift, especially for the poly boys at the time.
SPEAKER_00:Hey, that's cool. So, like what I take out of that, mate, is the coaches like physically and metaphorically opened the door. They encouraged what they wanted by initiating the behavior, they made it compulsory. So it just started the chain of events that they wanted to see. So we want this behaviors. We want all our young men to be able to come and talk to coaches. So we're gonna, you know, preempt that by making it a thing. It's compulsory. If you don't turn up, it's gonna affect selection. So everyone has to do it, and you get used to do it and you normalize it, so it's not an issue. And you talked about building it builds a relationship. Is that what it did for you?
SPEAKER_01:Made Yeah, bro, it build a relationship, you know? Like it's uh like you you can go there and even just talk about life. You know, they you know, especially for us, or for anyone, you know, when when family comes up, when family comes up, hey, you're like, it's more more of a punch. And it's one of those ones, it's one of those ones, like, man, he's asking about my family and stuff. I'll run through the wall for this guy, you know. And that's that's how that's how Polynesian boys are like, man. Like, if you want the best out of them, is you you father them. You know, you you you're not like don't don't uh I don't think you really get the best out of them by yelling and all that kind of stuff. There's a few of us that we can take that where um we grew up around that the you know, the romantic, you know, the 90s kids, you know, getting told straight up um you know what you need to do in that, but I think the uh the best uh coaches that I've worked off is worked off is coaches that really made you feel like loved.
SPEAKER_00:I love that phrase for a coach to be fatherly, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I remember I remember one of the one of the trainings and I asked um Wayne Wayne Smith, I asked Smithy, I go, bro, what what makes makes coach a great coach? And he and he said to me, he goes, son, you don't coach them. Everyone knows how to be coached, but you father them, you nurture them and you you show them love. And I was just like, oh that's that's that's honestly it. Like one otherwise, like, you know, like when I do talk to Smithy, it's it's different compared to everyone else. It's he actually has um that connection with you while you know when you have you know when you have a one-on-one of them, and it's deeper than just the game.
SPEAKER_00:And you never want to let your father down, do you?
SPEAKER_01:Nah, bro. That was one thing is like when he spoke or any other coaches spoke, it's you know, these guys, like, yeah, especially Smilly, for myself, when he spoke, it's like, yeah, I'm there.
SPEAKER_00:It's pretty powerful, mate. Like it's a powerful coaching thing, which probably isn't spoken enough about about it's it's not all about the X's and O's, like the skills and drills. It's about that other piece, hey, how you build relationships, how you connect with people.
SPEAKER_01:100%. Yeah. Yeah, like and and in this, like, you know, this chat that we're having now is like, yeah, the like Smithy was a massive part of my, you know, I was just a kid trying to to make super and he was asking me, what is your goal? And I was just like, Oh, I want to be an A B. And he was like, You can make it, you have to believe it, and you gotta work hard for it. So he like coming from uh a coach that was you know in the system and um and he's kind of giving that belief into me, I'm like, man, like there's a bit of like keep working hard, you know, and just keep on grinding every every single day. Um yeah, that's like that that that made a lot of massive impact of my you know and my career.
SPEAKER_00:You're gonna change the trajectory of your of your Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Like I think just that that being in the in that 2012 13 throughout those years when I was at the Chiefs with that with that group, um it really changed me as as a player and as a person as well. Just regarding to the way that I present myself at trainings and all that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_00:What were you doing before, Augie? R run us through like what what what was the channel like what what happened what's your upbringing before that, mate? Like how did that look and leading up to that point? Obviously you made it to the super, but did you just how did things look beforehand?
SPEAKER_01:Both of my parents are from Tonga. So my old man came came here early um trying to, you know, finding us over. He managed to get us over. So all my siblings are all born in Tonga. I was the only one born in Z. So when I grew up, um my siblings are you know a lot older than myself. I grew up and I I well uh my family were poor, really poor family. Um, you know, and that's I've always had I was that kid that never hardly had lunch. Um, you know, because my my olds were always, you know, they have to go work for my other. siblings as well. They're really in college. And I was in primary. So I I seen them struggle. I've seen hard times. So I've I always had a burden on my back that I felt like I was responsibly that my responsibility was being born in New Zealand. I've I got this opportunity to try and make a living and try to take my family out of being in that in in the situation of the time. So that was the drive throughout my whole career or my whole you know upbringing what you call it. Yeah I got into intermediate and that's where you know as kids from South Auckland you kind of you're more exposed to more things than normal. And that's where you know I've you know I've I've grew up growing up being around my family and you know with with gangs and and stuff like that. Wasn't heavily but what's like you know I think every Cornesian family's you know they when they when they rip walk through that door they're you know they're good. But once we you know we go and hang out with the boys is it's our to mystery. Yeah so that's where that kind of kinda like excited so I had on like I had like four uh three friends. They're like family family friends to me and you know what we've seen growing up we decided to you know try try become a gang so that's where like oh it was crack up because I'll be the only one um working at the time so I'll get paid$50 a month. And that's quite a that's quite a you know bit of money um for teenagers. So we'll walk down to the to the two dollar shop and grab some bandanas and we'll see if we're actually corps and and go look you know we'll the motto at the time was like we don't look for trouble but we yeah we we we don't go look for trouble. But you know we're actually wearing like these kids wearing bandanas asking to get a hiding air so yeah no it's yeah obviously the reason why I say I I talk about this because it's um for us Polynesian boys like in South Auckland it's tough man we the majority of us we struggle all of our parents you know they're majority of them have you know come from from from the islands and we just want to help as fast as as possible and you know joining a gang and all that kind of stuff is most likely the easiest thing to do.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah and how did how did the rugby journey sort of take place mate and when did you sort of realize actually this is a this is a whole nother route for me to go down.
SPEAKER_01:Obviously I was playing I was training at the same time and you know doing their stuff uh trying to be trying to be I want to be gangster I my my my uh me and my me and Ange uh we lost we lost our first child I read my sin there having um my older brother took care of everything I could I was I was at a crossroad at the time I haven't made it like I was what I was I was in counties at the time but I haven't really made super I was thinking to myself man it's easier if I just get down this route you know it's it's it's it's quicker but I don't want to be self-fashid I don't want to see losing my son was um was a massive um thing I wanted to kind of kind of make it up I couldn't make it up but I was trying to find a a positive way out yeah it it was it was it was buzzing because there was like he was born on the ninth on the ninth um he it was buzzing because like it was on the ninth um they the month it was on September had bad like they had to you know obviously bring him out at nine in the morning we got thing at nine at night to to go home his pot was nine so it was my parents keep saying to me like man and my brother in them was like this is a sign for you to actually give it a go like give it a crack I've I haven't even spoken about this but yeah that's when I really like you know what I want to actually give it a go like my friends and them will always be at my house because my house was always the hub. Yeah yeah we'll call it the Hadi and everyone or or like all the boys will come you know we'll chill there and all that kind of stuff but I'll circle I said um I won't drink with with the brothers and I'll go road running while they're drinking or you know I was more dedicated to just kind of getting back on this track why like you know I was a young kid I wanted to get my parents out you know there's a lot of signs that you know um that's been given to you to have a give a crack so I just fully give it a go man never told like I I got injured and um oh so 2010 I got caught into the to the to the Chiefs so the preseason and we were doing pre-season um I think it was the third day but I was whiters at the time so this is pre-season for 2010 to four for eleven and I was running running but I've been I've been running like with my leg like this for a long time Fuzzy they don't keep doing Fozzie anymore hey jump on the the bike I was like no nah nah keep running it got to a point where I was like really cooling up and Fuzzy and they was like hey and doc at the time I was like we need to get X-ray what's wrong it's like oh no sometimes it's sore we're in X ray I was like uh three three quarters fractured my so man and I've I've been I've been I've been running like that ever since yeah from school like it's so you had a you had a three quarter fracture in your leg and you were trying to do uh a pre-season full board training and you just were so dedicated and not I was just so dedicated man you just kept running with this broken leg until the doctors dragged you out and made you get a scare yeah it was after I I managed to finish it I managed to finish um the the hill session and went got an x-ray and usually you know usually uh fractures don't don't show off on x-rays yeah man I was it was heartbreaking like uh didn't pass my medical so I went back home and had a couple of months off getting a heal so I had to put bolts and all that kind of stuff. You had to get bolts you had to get on that. They had to put on um c a couple of rods and a plate. Would you have kept going all season? 100% bro because like this is how much like I I wanted it to get my you know my family and out of the position they were at the at the time. Like I so wanted it so bad. Like Doc said to me man I can I can all I need to do is just like hold it and just push it and break it. Like that's how far deep so I had it that long that the fracture was under and then I already built bone over it. I had already got a lump of bone in it because yeah it's just bone like so it was already trying to heal so that's years of roadrun and um not having the the right um like shoes road running.
SPEAKER_00:Mate that's pretty incredible when you hear someone's backstory like that even you talking about it now mate just sort of shows the inner drive that you had but also like that kind of psychology of a of a rugby player right like there's there's some stuff that it's a physical game it's part of it isn't it like you don't think twice about injury and stuff like that right yeah but I'm sure you you're probably like man yeah it's some some like I remember uh um oh what was it you know leg uh my knee used to dislocate I remember yeah you'd just be there yeah get muscle of the physio to run in trying to put it back in jump it up I just remember those scenarios is like you'd go down you'd have dislocated your knee and the the Japanese physio come running on you'd just be like just put it back in I need to keep going hurry up and you'd be like freaking out going I just like I don't know if I can or do it myself the game is stopped and we're like trying to like put the knee back in mate these these sort of things are just uh are super cool because it's this is like when you put it in the normal perspective of a normal life how odd it sounds like you're just you're you're trying to go for runs with a broken leg, you're trying to self-administer a dislocated knee by trying to put it back in yourself just to be able to keep doing what you're doing. There's a what is it mate?
SPEAKER_01:What is it about yourself and also the the psychology of that what why do you reckon that is well like there's there's times I I I always think like why like you know like but honestly I think the struggles that I've been through like running with a broken leg wasn't like it wasn't gonna stop me in like half when my mind was dedicated to something I'm like I'm full on um into it and it's there's a positive to it like you know obviously you know you you get to a position like um you've been vest you get to play you know the sport that you wanted you've dreamed of you get to certain teams that you've you're dreamed of getting to but then the negative of of it it's like it's for me it's it's more it was more like me against the world like that was the mentality from young like it's I don't know where it came from it's just it's like if if there was someone to like if someone doubted me I'm like I I'll have sleepless nights be like yeah he waits and that's like I don't know like it's it's it's something that I even now that I kind of uh it's kind of like it's burden but slowly I think I'm slowly getting kind of over it and like like slowly now that I'm kind of open to kind of talking and thinking about it now like one thing that I hate was people doubting me like I'll have sleepless nights like even if I heard someone say something about me that I didn't like like my first reaction is like let's just go punch them in the face like that was you know back you know back then and it's just it's I'm I'm sure someone out there will be going through the same thing as well.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah what do you what what do you what do you give advice like on that mate because there will be a lot of people like that and how how have you grown on that side of things and what advice would you give to young fellas going through the same stuff?
SPEAKER_01:Man to be honest man I was I think it was when I got checked like I said earlier about am I actually living a Christian life and that it's that's what kind of like you know kind of like kind of held me back my wife is like a massive part of it. Um even my parents my parents will always say like and Tongana says like you got a big heart like so I I was always that person like if I felt like something I would be like just lose it and my my parents and my sister and my brother in them like that's why the reason why probably the reason why I got a lot of hidings from my from my for my brothers and them is because you know it's like I I don't I don't know how to say it. Just never I don't I I really don't know how to you know to to put into words but I think like I said earlier like the the Christian life is has kind of built something that you know like uh this is the way you live you you you call yourself this uh you have to live it but man I'll be honest like it's it's it's tough. Like we're not yeah it's tough.
SPEAKER_00:Well one one thing about you which I think is uh a really testament to your character is it feels like you're you're really open um to to reach out to people you think can be supportive. I remember you telling me a story about um yeah Sonny Bill like actually sat you down and to taught you about how to write a week and like how to write things down and and make little goals and plans and you took that on board and then it sort of that journaling became a little bit of your professional um aspect is the things like that which have and I know you have like out of the blue sometimes you just give me a call and just ask me about something which is not related to rugby just a life thing and I found you're really open to just picking up the phone people you you know and and ask those questions I I think it's a real awesome trait of yours you're thinking deeply about how do I keep doing this or how do I keep getting better. Is that something which you've had to think about and how how have coaches and your fellow players helped that side of things for you?
SPEAKER_01:Massively man like um like I I really reckon like surrounding yourself with positive people like picking the good the good stuff what can you know really make grow you as a person grow you as as a hobby player networking you know like having a normal combos it's I think it's it's probably the best thing to do is like just just having a checking up on a brother or you know checking up on another person to see how they're how they're doing plays a big part like like you said sunny was a massive um part of meeting a professional as well like he he sat me down and is like this is this is this is what I do I think I'll help you and then he'll be just just Monday Tuesday Wednesday write down and then he'll be like okay after like to say after the game okay on on Mondays you want to gym you want to do your your homework get clear on your roles you want to do a like a sweat out like things that's gonna benefit you.
SPEAKER_00:So when you get to the end of the week before game day you're like you look back and you're like I've banked that I've banked that I've banked that I've done my recovery I've done my fitness hits I've done my skill I've done my homework recovery you've done all of you've ticked off everything so when it comes to the game you don't have to you know um second guess yourself you can just go out there freely and give it a go and see how you go but for me that has helped me I guess still play to today with the injuries that I've that I've uh that I've picked up along the way it's taught me to be proactive of preparing um my weeks to the way I rehab the way I keep my body in tone so don't have to I'd get ready by you know always be ready I think that's exactly right I think there's a there's something cool which you've done you've sort of trained the mad dog in you and you've put some crite like a little bit of a checklist and you've done it almost smarter not harder I think yeah that's a shift where it's easy just to keep going harder but at some point you need to if you want to do this for a living you need to be smarter in what you do and and what you've just said there is creating those checklists listen to people that like Sunny who have got good experience and see what the those ahead of you are doing and just copy and paste. And you're no less of a mad dog on the field because of it. You're actually better because you're you're lasting longer you're preparing your body yeah and you're doing these little routines which which is it's just a smart thing to do and I and I I love the way you've curbed your own natural physicality and just given it some structure. Said right hey keep all that because that's what's got you here. But then here's how you really refine it. And I think it's a cool thing for a coach to realise not to take that stuff which you can't coach out which is the attitude to run on a broken leg but then just to keep it but then put some little frameworks around it. I think it's yeah it's absolute gold.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah man it is bro it's and like you know like Phil Hilly at the time I was the trainer of the Chiefs like because like you said like I'm I'm a person that that overtrains big time um especially with with the injuries I got like I'll still do those sneaky road runs now and then and it's and it like when it gets when it got to the game they then I'll be like man I'm sore and then he's you know you'll you'll sit down with the coaches and he's like oh what's what's happening here look at my weekend I was like oh you're gone for a road run on the on the day off or something like that or um but you know it's like you said it's it's so important like because you you kinda um the cool thing about you know when you when you um when you prep your weeks you can kind of look back and go oh after the game it's like how did you feel you know uh were you fatigued do you you know you felt good then you can just go back and be like okay if like just say if you're a bit fatigue on the weekend you'll look back and be like okay self-done three conditioning hits I'll probably move it down to two now so then you know and you try to get that balance when you're doing those kind of hits I think uh a lot of us they're they're striding out to to to make it we just all we know is just go hard go hard go hard go hard yeah I love it mate I love it and how's your family growing now mate you've got four kids five bro sorry five kids yeah mate you keep going mate how how how's that dynamic mate you're you've come from you're the youngest yourself now you've got your own crew mate how how is that side of things in life for you bro it's been a blessing eh it's been a blessing man it you know it's a blessing to take them to um to Japan they got to um be a part of the the culture and you know go into full tap schools and stuff and now we're back in in New Zealand like it's man all the hard work um fraught you know all the sacrifices and oh to come back to New Zealand they're like just loving being around all their cousins uncles aunties the wife is over the moon to be back home.
SPEAKER_00:We were just talking off air about the when you've got a supportive partner at home that's prepared to live in Japan it's pretty isolating. It reminds you how privileged and blessed you are right to to have that sort of support and that's massive right having that support on that side of things?
SPEAKER_01:Massive man like it's I think at the start you know your is is is mince like for myself I was like but I'm providing you know but man they're actually doing the hard work you know they're the ones that's looking after the household they're feeding because they're you know they're feeding myself doing all the works behind the scenes and then hey here's us going and enjoying getting to do what we love to do pay 40 plan again the boys pay the you know come back home oh but sore I've got to jump on the game ready or something like that. You know and that's man needed so long and then you start realizing like when you get like a little chance of like looking after the kids for a couple of hours you're like I don't know how how the wives do this. It puts it in perspective isn't it like yeah what's what's it's almost adds to what you spoke about earlier about um how about being a good Christian and and and what your partners do at home with family sometimes for professional players is the the epitome of living up to amazing values isn't it what's really it's so important mate it's it's so cool that like the faith of things is like um like the game's just a game like because you know I grew up you know I think everyone grows up you you have a good game you're high you have a bad game or you lost a game your whole week is like this you come home but uh man like with the faith and stuff is like it's it's steady it stays the same you know there's it's not like you're not living up and down up and down up and down so that's something that I've like I've learned recently with you know the journey and with the family and stuff that's been a blessing.
SPEAKER_00:I love the way Ogie that you talk so much about how things are blessings. I think it's just a a lovely trait you have mate and it's something that I think we all can learn from is to always look at that brighter side of stuff whatever we're doing in life.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Now mate it's it's got to that time mate it's flown it flies by and I've got one the final question I do like to ask on this podcast is mate what's what's one belief you have about culture and in your experience that you reckon a lot of people would would disagree with I don't know drinking what do you reckon you should be or you shouldn't be you shouldn't be yeah mate get rid of it you reckon no no this is part of the culture I guess eh I don't know it's become a culture to be honest though you mean the there's drinking in rugby as part of rugby culture?
SPEAKER_01:No you reckon it should be no I'm I'm just I'm just putting the league I I really don't know way to I'm trying to figure out like do you have any examples?
SPEAKER_00:Well mate I actually think I'm gonna I'm gonna raise that drinking one because drinking's been uh it it has been a big part of rugby culture throughout rugby's history I reckon I reckon uh rugby's amateur roots um and and having a beer after game is almost synonymous with playing rugby and you don't see that as much in other sports you don't see after game a squash players go off and have a beer in the change room it may happen but it's it's kind of the expectation certainly 20 years ago it was the absolute norm and slowly that is it is definitely creeping out of the game as the new generation of athletes are working out probably with a little bit more understanding of the detrimental nature of our cult. Yeah and if you want to be a professional these days you can't ride off a Sunday by having a huge Saturday night and I think that is well known and I'm certainly seeing in these younger generations of players that drinking is not part of the culture like it once was and I think that's a great thing. And I'll go one step further Oogie and I reckon if you're serious about playing rugby drinking for your body and your mind and your brain is not great and it's something which we should actually be looking to take out of the game. I understand the social aspect to drinking and it does have something there but I know for me having been knocked out too many times and brain health wise when I have a beer it really affects my head so I don't drink these days. I've had three beers this this year and if I did I reckon it would affect me poorly for the rest of my life for that family side of stuff. I know when I have a couple I have to go to bed early because it's stirring something up in my head which I don't want to I don't want to risk with all we know about um some of the brainhouse stuff and alcohol is not a good thing. And if you're putting yourself in a a position on a rugby field where you're gonna get shaken up in the in the head and then if you're going and drinking that that is not a good thing. And I think that little bit of personal responsibility about shaping your own culture around how you handle alcohol is a really important thing for this game and for you in it going forward.
SPEAKER_01:Totally agree with you man like it's um like it can't really hold us back with the way we present ourselves on a Monday or it's not just a Monday it comes to the next game as well. You're one day behind everything so like you said a few like you know kids out there that's you know really want to make it yeah sacrifice you know drinking that's something that you know I had to kind of do because I was a massive drinker as well like yeah loved it. Um especially being in Japan and I think it got to time where you know I just it wasn't like you said like um I couldn't get up for you know the family stuff and all that kind of stuff it really affected um a lot of things. So yeah it's been nearly three four years now I've I've had maybe one or two beers in these four years. And it's no surprise that you're still playing man playing great rugby because of it right yeah 100% of like sacrificing and you know just I just rook up just over it to be honest. Wasn't keen wasn't keen no more I've had like you said I just too many um no yeah benders they just they like don't want to do it no more and um it's really helped me you know prepare weekly have a good mind you know for your family and you know good Sunday walks. Love it mate yeah love it.
SPEAKER_00:Now OG, this is the end mate and I'd just like to sort of sum up my three takeaways which I got from this conversation mate. Number one is you said right at the start about living to something higher than yourself and you were talking about the culture aspect but you're also talking about am I being a good Christian and holding yourself to that account holding yourself to something higher. And I just think that's a lovely phrase not only for players but also for coaches and whatever your religion is being able to hold yourself to a higher value whatever that is is a really massive thing about having that personal responsibility about you and where you want to go and what you want to do and and holding good values along the way and I think for coaches we embody that because we're essentially the top of the waterfall sometimes and everything looks up towards our behaviours and what we're valuing. So to live to something higher than yourself is a massive thing to keep at the front of mind. Number two, I love this phrase about coaches opening the door you talked about the Chiefs how the coaches actually made it mandatory for players to come and see the coaches to have one-on-ones because they wanted to initiate that behaviour of players being able to come to coaches and have a conversation with them. And so they built it into the schedule they built building that relationship so not just Polynesian players but every player feels comfortable enough to be able to come and have a conversation with those that are leading the operation and that is a great skill set and I just think it's a wonderful initiation by the coaches to actually make it mandatory to start with to encourage the behaviours they want to see. And number three mate is just this concept of the more fatherly you are the better you are at connecting with players on a deeper level and you talked about Wayne Smith said anyone could coach but to be a father is that next level of expectation and we both said it that when the relationship is like what that of a father or a mother you don't want to let them down at all. You will go out and do whatever you can to make your father proud. So as coaches to shift it more than just as a coach but to become that fatherly or motherly figure is something truly wonderful and what a craft it is to try emulate that. Augustine Paulou it's always a pleasure to catch up with you my friend thank you for joining us on the Coaching Culture podcast.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you bro appreciate it