%20copy.png)
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Mike Catt: No Dumb Questions. Building Brave Team Cultures
A golden Sydney evening sets the scene, but the real heat in this conversation is Mike Catt’s blueprint for durable, high-performing teams. We go far beyond tactics to unpack why love for the game, genuine care, and trained calm turn individual talent into collective results. Mike traces a remarkable journey from South Africa’s hard-edged competitiveness to Bath’s winning heyday, through Italy’s tough rebuilds, Ireland’s detail-rich evolution, and now the Waratahs, where skill development meets identity and purpose.
We dig into the idea that calm is a skill, not a mood. Mike explains how “think fast, move at 30–40%” creates better pictures, cleaner decisions, and efficient attack—especially when forwards are coached to scan, connect, and pass sharply at the line. He shares how Ireland’s players embraced change by pairing deep study with immediate transfer, and why “no dumb questions” is the cultural rule that accelerates alignment. The result is psychological safety without softness: honest standards, straight talk, and a team that learns in public.
Culture here isn’t posters—it’s small daily acts that build trust. Mike outlines the rituals that work: player-led interviews, shared coffees after hard sessions, jerseys in the gym, and space to tell the stories that make teammates real. We explore how national identities shape style—South Africa’s history-fueled intensity, Ireland’s GAA-born skills, England’s structural strength—and what Australia needs now: a renewed kicking game and a purpose that earns attention in a crowded sports market. Along the way, Mike reframes failure as tuition, from Italy’s grind to a landmark win, to the famous Lomu moment that he meets with humility and perspective—then reminds us he lifted the 2003 World Cup.
If you lead a team, coach athletes, or care about culture that actually performs, this one’s packed with usable ideas: train calm, upskill everyone, invite questions, and make it matter beyond the scoreboard. Enjoy the conversation, and if it sparks something for you, follow the show, share it with a coaching friend, and leave a quick review to help more people find it.
If you can SUBSCRIBE, RATE, and SHARE the show and series, you would be doing your bit to grow this show. Very appreciated. Ben
To subscribe to the newsletter or to get a copy of the book, jump onto:
www.coachingculture.com.au
Share this show with your mates, rugby, coaches, leaders! Dont be shy.
When you got a good culture, is there no dumb questions? The the nice thing about coaching these days is a lot of it's down to man management. You've got to think quick and you gotta act quick, but you don't have to do it at 100 miles an hour. You have to fail. To be good, you have to fail. Sydney's a big place, but there's no excuse. If you want to be connected to this team, you have to get together. And you've got to make an effort to get together and you've got to want to do it. Because the country cares, it matters. Oh, the country cares. It matters. Yes. It matters. It's not just a game.
SPEAKER_03:Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I've been Herring, and I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Mike Kat. Mike was born in Port Elizabeth, South Africa, before he moved to England, made his debut for Bath in 1992. He's then gone on to play 227 games for Bath, 76 for London Irish, 75 for the English national team, and the British and Irish Lions. After retiring from playing, he started his coaching where he started at London Irish and went on to have a decade as an attack coach for England, Italy, and Ireland. Nowadays he prefers the warmer weather of Sydney, where he's attack coach for the Waratars. And as we speak, he is overlooking from his apartment the Kooji Oval in Koogie Beach. Mike Cat, 33 years and pro rugby at the highest level. Welcome to the Coaching Culture Podcast.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you very much. Nice to have you.
SPEAKER_03:Mate, uh, how are you doing, mate? How are we enjoying the sunshine at Koji Beach?
SPEAKER_02:Um, it's dreadful, to be honest. I mean, it's 25 degrees, 26 degrees, 7 o'clock at night, not much wind. People are still walking around the beach. Um, everybody playing down on the oval. So um it's pretty tough, to be honest. It's a tough life at the moment. Um, after dinner, I'll go down and have a kick with my little fella, with Alice, and then um we'll go from there, really. But no, it's been uh been incredible. It's been an incredible journey. Um I've been here for a year now. Um the rugby side's obviously been tough with Warators. There's been a lot of change, um, but a great challenge. And we've just started our our second pre-season, so um, and we've just had our first week and it's been it's gone exceptionally well so far.
SPEAKER_03:That's right, mate. Well, I guess the I guess the really interesting one is well, what inspired the move, mate? Yeah, a lot long time in the UK and Europe?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I I I think um I've always been a person about experiences, and I've had the most incredible experiences around the world um from rugby. And this was pretty much Australia for me was exactly how I sort of grew up in South Africa in Port Elizabeth. I was close to the beach, you know, you had your nippers, your life saving, you had you had absolutely every outdoors all the time, loads of space, safe as anything. And um, I just thought it's the last time that I'm gonna give my kids, Ellison Aaron, the 14-year-old and 16-year-old, the chance to experience what I experienced growing up. And so when I got an opportunity after the island job, um Dan McKellar phoned me and he said, Would you would you be interested in it? And um I thought, yeah, why not? It's it's it's been an amazing experience so far. My son's really enjoyed it. My daughter's just arrived and she's she's loved it so far. So great, great, great place to live. Great culture, great people. Um, just outdoorsy. I I absolutely love it. It's awesome.
SPEAKER_03:No, it's it's quite cool that it's come full circle, right? From starting in Port Elizabeth on the beach to now you're 33 years later, you're in professional rugby, you're you're back on the beach.
SPEAKER_02:I I I know. And uh, you know, again, just getting up in the morning at 5, 6, go for a little play around with a with a ball and then jumping in the sea with the sun. It's just special moments, you know, it's what my dad do with me. So for me to replicate that is is is is massive. So it's um yeah, it's just another experience for my kids, for myself, for the family. So um, yeah, I've I've loved it so far.
SPEAKER_03:Have you done it, mate? 33 years, like not many people can say that I've been in professional rugby at the very highest level for three decades. How have you managed to do it and and how's it shaped and grown you? Um, how have I done it?
SPEAKER_02:I love it, Ben. I absolutely love, I've always loved the game. I've loved I've loved what it gives you physically, I've loved the mental toughness that it puts you through. I've loved the um the highs of it are so high. And I think through schooling, through, you know, it was the number one sport in South Africa. Um, everybody's massively passionate about it. Um, and then when I came over to the UK, we won everything. I turned up as a 21-year-old, and you just turned up at a club back then. You didn't have to come through any academies or something, turn up, played for the third team. Ended up um a year later playing for the first team, and the whole England team pretty much played for Bath at the time. So I'd been watching them in the five nations, then turned up, played for the third team, got into the first team, and Bath were winning everything. So as a young 21, 22-year-old, to play with some of the best players in the world, your Jeremy Guscots, your Stuart Barnes, your Ben Clarks, um, and be winning on a regular basis um was just the amazing introduction to sort of rugby in in in the UK and and winning in those amateur days was proper fun. I mean, we had we had we had proper fun. It was proper fun. Yeah, yeah. So so we're very, very fortunate. Um, you know, we had like seven internationals in our second team. So, you know, you played Wednesday nights, you played Saturday. It was just it was just amazing. Bath was buzzing, a little bit like Bathys now, you know, they're very successful again now, which is great. But um, yeah, the players they had um and going into that sort of um environment really taught me a lot about myself and how you need to to deal with things. I think one of the big things when I first turned up in Bath, um they weren't the easiest of players to get along with in terms of they wouldn't they wouldn't really talk to you or acknowledge you unless you were a good rugby player. But when they when when you proved your worth on the pitch, they're your best mates for life. So I've got some incredible blokes now that that have helped me along the way, that have that have directed me and from from that, and it was incredible as a young kid to to have that experience, but you had to earn your stripes before you you got accepted, which is very interesting, very different to what it is today.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, how does that compare today? What's what's your take on that, mate? How's how's the difference in modern professional rugby?
SPEAKER_02:Well, I think it's it's you know, you've got to come in and be yourself these days. You gotta you gotta um everybody's gotta be accepted, it's all that sort of stuff. So there's still a little bit of respect. You've got to earn your respect and and earn earn your stripes, but there's a lot more of accepting and everybody buying in, and and a lot of the times you come through all academies these days as well. So people know you, you, you, you, the coaches know you, so you've got a history at the club already and all that sort of stuff. Whereas in the past, guys could just turn up and you just just played. So it's it's it's it's it's very different, but again, exceptionally it was so good to go through. Yeah. You know, amateur days, those, those four or five years of amateur days. Nothing, I didn't know what else I was gonna do. You know, I didn't have I wasn't the most academically driven, to be fair. I just wanted to play rugby and and uh, you know, you never got paid to play rugby. So um when I went professionally in 95, 96, obviously, you know, it just became something so, so special for me. Um, I was getting paid to do something that I just loved. It was an escape for me, rugby. You know, the more time I spent out on a rugby pitch was, you know, a lot easier than I was escaping life, really. You know, I could just throw the ball around, kick the ball around, and just spend hours and hours and hours, all the the rubbish about family stuff and all this that all went when I went on a rugby pitch. So I just spend more and more time on it. So no, I I just I just loved it. I just absolutely loved it. And and pushing yourself to the limit, pushing your physical self to the limit. You know, I I prided myself a lot on the fitness side of it. So I I went hard on the fitness side. And it was just, yeah, just just brilliant job, brilliant, brilliant people you got involved with, and I saw the world, you know? Honestly incredible. Absolutely love it. And that's why I love it even more. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Well, mate, you're certainly escaping to a beautiful part of the world right now, mate.
SPEAKER_00:That I am, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So, mate, just on that though, do you think it's like for a lot of for a lot of players that escapism is an important part of the game where you get to be something that you potentially don't get to be anywhere else in life? Like you get to go and be tough and physical and do that side of things. You don't get that anywhere else, do you? Is that a massive part of the game?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I well I could only speak for myself, really. I I yeah. Yeah, because you because you're a different animal when you're on the pitch. You're not the same person, you're not the same person, and everybody thinks, you know, and and it rubs a lot of people up the wrong way, how you change or you become more competitive or or something, you know. Um but you're a different person on the pitch.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:You're not you're not yourself. You're you're this you're this animal that's put in so much time, so much hard work, and you're striving for something with a team, a group of guys that you just don't know if you're gonna get or not. But you're you're giving it a good old, you're giving it a good old shot, you know? And and and for me, that's the that's the exciting part of it all. But when you come off it, the humbleness, the humility, the the ego goes out the door, everything goes out the door, and you just become your normal self again. And and that what I really liked was chopping and changing between the two. Um but it does, it it's it's it's hard to deal with sometimes when from a press point of view or people's perception of you as an individual. Um, and that's what drives you even harder sometimes, or it can it can it can hurt certain players, and we're definitely seeing that now with social media and all that with some of the youngsters these days, that you know they do they do read it and they they get affected by it. We only had newspapers we had to read. Um and I stopped reading them at a very early age because the amount of abuse I'd get on the but they just didn't know you as a purse or anything like that. So, but but yeah, so they're they're two different character sides of of you. I think when you when you you know Yeah, how you've been brought up at home to then how you've been brought up on a rugby pitch is is I th I I think it's very different.
SPEAKER_03:It is very different.
SPEAKER_02:Well it has to be. I think it has to be. I don't think you could be the same person all the way along. It's very hard.
SPEAKER_03:How do you how do you encourage the players you coach to find that essentially alter ego and be someone else? Do you encourage it?
SPEAKER_02:I think if you if Yeah, I I think if you if you love something, you will do what it takes to you you'll find that way to get into that position. Whether you're the most skillful or not is irrelevant. I think, you know, I've I've seen a lot of guys that aren't very skillful, but just have this want, this genuine want to to achieve something that's that's that's out there that and again they don't know whether they're gonna get it or not, but they're gonna put themselves out there above the parapet and they're gonna they're gonna challenge themselves and they're gonna challenge the people around them to help them get to where they want to go. Um and I and I think that's that's the the nice thing about coaching these days is a lot of it's down to man management. You you the the belief in a player, getting the player to believe, upskilling the player so he can be calm and connected when he when he plays and he's in sync and he's in the moment, all that sort of stuff. I think it's it's crucial. It's crucial. Um, but yeah, you the alter ego has to come out.
SPEAKER_03:How do you man-manage people in that regard, Mike? Like it's it's a it's an interesting skill set, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I I think understanding's a huge one. Understanding what you do and how you do it is crucial. Um, I've gone down the route when I was with Ireland the last sort of couple of years, we went down a route of of real calmness in attack, especially in our attacking game. The real calmness, and you know, you don't have to do everything at 100 miles an hour. You you got you gotta think quick. You gotta think quick and you gotta act quick, but you don't have to do it at 100 miles an hour. You can do it at 30, 40% running speed, you're nice and calm. The defense is coming 100 miles an hour, so why go at 100 miles an hour? And what happens is the players then start understanding what it looks like and what it feels like. And that's they they see the picture all the time, they have time to see the picture all the time. And I'm pretty much just coaching how I played as a player. You know, I because I wasn't the biggest guy, I learned to kick and pass the ball very quickly in my career, avoid contact at all costs, sort of thing, and move the ball. So um, from that point of view, but but you at especially at international level for me, Ben, is you have to be calm. All the best players, you know, I've broken it all down. Your Daniel Carter's, your Johnny Wilkinson, all these guys were were, especially Daniel Carter for me, you'd run around the pitch at 30, 40% running speed. But his decision rate, Finn Russell currently, he he he he saunters around the pitch, but he puts himself in the right position. He might be rushed, but he can still execute it because his skill set's so good. So there's that stepping stone of upskilling players to get to a certain level where they don't need to think about their skill. So they can just just feel it, and and that's what I'm doing with our Fords currently with the Waratars. There's a huge emphasis on that. We did that with Ireland as well. And and once that calmness comes in, the efficiency then comes in. So from a Ford's point of view, is when you start moving the ball a little more, you move to space a little bit easier or or better. Um, the defenses are moving, and you become efficient as a group of players. Because you're you're not running into brick walls all the time. And for me, that's that's crucial. So therefore, your scrum, your line out, and all the other bits and pieces these forwards have to have to go through, you know, but but they have to understand what we're trying to do. And it's a it's a team understanding, it's not just an individual understanding. Sorry, I've digressed a bit there, mate.
SPEAKER_03:No, I loved it. It's a really cool topic, mate, because you're talking about this calmness. And if you go a hundred percent in whatever you're doing, you don't always get to feel what the success looks like to actually get the patterning and things. But would you say that calmness are you training the mental side of it or the physical side of it, or a bit of both?
SPEAKER_02:Both. So I've I've gone, it's been really interesting how it's digressed or I've sort of moved to this sort of part of the game. Um I mean, I remember New Zealand in 20, 13, 14, 15, their tight five were incredible rugby players. You know, they moved the ball so well, great decision making at the line and all that sort of stuff. And I sort of on the back of that just went, right, we've got to upskill all our forwards. Our forwards have to be able to move the ball. And you're only talking about a three, four-meter pass, you're not talking about a 30-meter or a 10-meter pass at all. So all the small, sharper, um, shorter passes, sorry, that that that really manipulate a defense, but at the line and understanding it, but you've got to be calm enough to be able to see that picture. And when you when you when you're calm, when if you can see a picture, you know what's coming. So therefore you're gonna be calmer. So coach, coach the scanning side of it. Coach how you how you stand on the pitch. So don't stand there and stare at the ball when it's coming from a ruck on your left-hand side because you're not seeing any anything that the defense is doing. So go to a con continual scanning or a or a or a right, I can see the ball coming and I can still scan in front of me. And so, so I know what's coming. And if everybody's doing the same scanning process, for me, they're all seeing the same picture unfold. So therefore, it becomes everybody's on the same page. And that's the classic everybody's on the same page type mentality. So all the guys out the back, the backs are then staring at or looking at the same thing. They don't have to go back on the ball till the ball's there. They're then seeing the defense move or not move, and they then make decisions accordingly. But it's all done at 30, 40% of your running speed. It doesn't need to be done quick.
SPEAKER_03:Does it take you down a bit? Do you have to break a few habits as a coach to talk about? Oh wow. Oh wow.
SPEAKER_02:Even even head coaches, you know, there's there's there's you'll always revert back to type. And and I think that was the beauty about coaching at international level, especially like going to a to a team like Ireland. Um, their knowledge of the game and their ability to to change literally instantly was incredible. And they bought into it very, very quickly, very, very quickly in terms of the the upskilling of it, the movement. Um so they they but again, it takes a year and a half, year, year and a half, depending on what sort of p players you've got to get them to a certain level. So you've got to you've got to cop it for a year, year and a bit as an attack coach when you go to a new environment because everybody's like, what is going on here? And even with with Andy Farrell, we we copped it for a for a good year and a half before we actually started seeing and seeing it all unfold. So you know where you're going, and it's a little bit like this here, you know, our second season with the Waratars now, I'd like to think that um we'll be streets ahead of where we were in January. Streets ahead. Just because there's a much better understanding of it.
SPEAKER_03:What why do you think the Irish particularly were good at transitioning?
SPEAKER_02:Um they they loved the game. They studied the the the they were students of the game, the knowledge they had, or have, sorry, the knowledge they have. Um there are no egos there. You know, I was working with guys like Johnny Sex and you Gary Ringsrose. These guys were so far ahead of what I knew. But they wanted real, real detail. So I'm I'm a little bit fluffy, so I had to try and sort of we sort of met halfway, I think, from that side of things where, you know, there's gotta be feel, you've got to enjoy yourself, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta do it right, but but you gotta relax and make people around you feel good as well. And I think that that but but the Irish studied the the amount of work they do at is is is mind blowing how much work they do off the pitch, and then are able to transfer that off the pitch into into a game. They they accept. Exceptional at it, very intelligent people. Yeah. And great people.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, they are. How did you get across that fact, mate? When you're dealing with the likes of Sexton and Ringrose, who are super detailed, and that's maybe not your admitted, you're more fluffy. How did how do you embrace those guys in the team? Because that's a stress for a lot of coaches when you're dealing with your best players in the team who are Well, you you you you pick your fights, Benny. You pick your fights. And put leads in put lead weights in your gloves.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And and and what what I sort of find working with all those top players, you know, working with Owen for uh Owen Farrell and George Ford and those guys is you let them be them. You let Johnny Saxon be Johnny Saxon. And what you do is you real focus on all the guys around them to bring them up to that level, to get them up to that level where, you know, Johnny or uh and Owen can just focus on their own games and they don't have to be telling anybody anything. So that's that's where I put all the efforts, or myself, as Sai used to be and Paulie O'Connell. We just put all your efforts into the guys around them to then bring them up to that level so everyone is on that that level level playing field. And it m it makes a huge difference because then Johnny can relax. Johnny can be himself, Johnny can just play his game, he's not worrying about anybody else. And I and I think that's that was something that we sort of that's why we went down that route.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Did you have any failures on that front?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, we had tons of failures.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean that'd be telling now, wouldn't it?
SPEAKER_02:No, you have to fail. To be good, you have to fail. You have to fail. You have to um Yeah, you just you just it just everything takes time. Everything takes time. But the minute they the minute they they get it, um is the minute that they and things just you know escalate, it's it's it's it's it's brilliant. I love it, man. It's great when they get it right.
SPEAKER_03:That's always a nice bit, mate, for sure.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Now now, Mike, we haven't we've we've delayed on the question which we normally open with, and that is how do you define culture?
SPEAKER_02:Wow, it's a great question because it's ever changing for me. It's ever changing with you know different coaches, different players, new players coming in, older players going out. Um what is culture? Culture for me is an environment where people genuinely care. Genuinely care. So um, and and again, my main example I think it's shown on the Lions tour was was Andy Farrell. What I've learned from him over the past five, six years, or ten, twelve years since I've known him has been incredible in terms of there's this there's this care for the player, for the individual, but there's also this care for the bigger picture thing that's just so powerful. And it's hard to put a finger on it. Um, you know, but when he talks to you, it's from it's from deep inside. It's it's it's I don't know if I'm explaining it properly, but it's such a yeah, he just wants the best for you. But there's no fluffy bits or anything like that. You know, he has a laugh, but he's straight up and he's just this, right, this is what the team needs you to do, da da da, and how he how he does it and how he it's it's it's a real yeah, it's just genuine, like genuine yeah, genuine care. Genuine care for the people around him. Um a lot of fun. A lot of fun, a lot of a lot of fun, but obviously the expectation of so so when you've got a culture, you need an expectation of that no excuse environment for me is good as well. You know, with this this day and age, not many of these professional athletes should be bitching and moaning about anything. They've got everything. They're getting paid, they get nutrition, they get sports, science, they get they get everything they want. And for me, then no excuse in violum, there's no ways a player can turn around to somebody and start bitching and moaning about something when they've got everything. They've got everything. So embrace it, go with it, and and give your best performance on the back of it. Apply yourself and and love what you do.
SPEAKER_03:Has it changed over the years, you reckon, from from your early days? The the culture, makeup of teams?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think for me it has, and I've been very lucky to to to experience so many other, you know, back in the early 2000s, you had a lot of egos. Even back in the 90s, you know, you had Dean Richards, Brian Moores, Jeremy Guscots, these guys were these levels, were were the proper egos sort of thing. And that's really definitely come out of the game a lot of the time. There's a there's a lot more of a unity within a team, I think. Um and I and I think that's where teams have got a lot, culture means so much more now than it did in the past. In the past, it was you turning up, you surviving, you need to get picked for the next week to play against South Africa. So I'm gonna do absolutely everything to make that happen. But I'm gonna have 10 pints with my mates before I do it. So anyway, you could cut that bit out.
SPEAKER_03:No, mate, I think I think it's a really valid point. Like it what it did almost feel like survival, isn't it, when you go into those older teams back in 20 years ago or so, like Oh, 100%.
SPEAKER_02:100%. Yeah, you you you just you survived. Yeah, you just wanted to get picked the next week.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and and after you've played a half a dozen games, then the coach will talk to you. Until then, just stay in your seat in the corner as a young fella.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, you you just set up and get on with it. And I think that's the that's the other thing with uh with young guys coming in. The other other sort of line you'd use is is when you've got a good culture, is there no dumb questions?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:You know, they're no dumb questions. So have the have the ability, whatever type of rugby player you are, where you've come from or whatever, if if if you've got a good culture inside of you, there's not going to be a dumb question. So ask it. Ask it. Even if it's in your head, it's the dumbest thing in the world. Somebody else might, whatever. And I think if you can get to that stage where there are no dumb questions, everybody then voices their opinion. They're free to be able to do that then without being laughed at or whatever. Um, I think it makes a huge difference too, by accepting everybody and making sure everybody's on the same page.
SPEAKER_03:That's a great point, mate. No dumb questions. I I think that's um that is a great rule to have for alignment, isn't it? Because if if you're a dash unsure, you ask what you think's a dumb question, but then you're sure by the end of it. So it's actually not a dumb question.
SPEAKER_02:But also, there could be 10 other people thinking of the same question, but don't have the balls to say it. So that again, it just helps the team or it triggers something else. So that ability to do that is is is is good culturally as well.
SPEAKER_03:I I think it's an interesting example, mate. I've had a couple of days lately with uh primary school kids where we've done little done little sessions, and the amount of questions you you think it's just you think you're being straight, but all the hands go up and they are just questions which you think would be equivalently dumb questions, like do I need to tie my shoelaces? Yes. Do I need to catch the ball when it comes to me? Yes. And these sort of questions, but that's almost we when you're young, you get you you're not afraid to ask dumb questions. You just do it. It's not as until you get a bit older, right? Then it sort of comes out of your psyche. You you feel stupid or you feel like it's not you have all these you know issues and you know sentiments which 100%. Yeah. We almost need to get back to that, don't we? Get back to the primary school where you just chuck your hand up the whole time.
SPEAKER_02:Well, that's that's good environment. You know, that that's that's definitely what I've been involved in in in the past, and it's it's makes it makes a huge difference. People are so much more at ease, you know, and they can be a little bit more themselves, you know, and that that makes that makes a huge difference. And they want to come into environments like that. There's no stress, there's no whatever, you know, there's enough on the game for them to worry about, you know, you don't need every single day to have that emotional stress chucked on you as well. So just free yourself up and go with it.
SPEAKER_03:That's right, mate. And certainly across not only primary school classrooms, but you've coached like across the world, mate. Like, what bits stand out for you as like things that different teams did well? You you talked about um some of those great players in Ireland, the ring roses and the sextons, but you know, what what differences stand out culturally from Ireland to Italy to Australia to England?
SPEAKER_02:Um, I think I mean South Africa's uh the easiest sort of growing up, the competitive nature of of the game in South Africa, you know, growing up, you know, you didn't walk back through the door at home if you hadn't won a game of rugby, you know. There was this, there was this real like, you only come home if you win. You know, you love it, oh my god. So there's this real competitive, real tough, hardcore mentality growing up, um, which was just incredible. I mean, it really is. It's and it's still there now, and and it's and it's with with South African rugby, for me, it's more than just rugby. It's not just a game of rugby.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:It's it's it's the history, and and I think that's that's where I think Russia Erasmus has done so, so well in terms of embracing that it's not just about the game of rugby. It's about you and your mates, where you've come from, how you've got your the country, what it's gone through over the past 30, 40 years, that sort of stuff that that they really tie into. And that's that emotional drive that I think the South Africans have currently got and are winning games with the skill set and everything now that that's that's that's coming through. Um, you know, England would be very much uh um, especially when I first went over there, would be, you know, it was very much 10-man rugby. You didn't play the big free-flowing, throwing the ball around, your robangs are kicking it every time, and and 10-man rugby on the back of it. And then we do know what I mean. So you you sort of had had the big physical stuff that that that happened. Um and then with Ireland again, they were they were again so students of the game, they understood it so well, they were so fit, or are so fit, sorry. They are such a fit team. And I and I think from their background with GAA, hurling, um, and and and football, I think um their skill set's huge, but again, they they're punching so far above their weight. Like Italy, you know, how many people actually play rugby in Ireland? How many people actually play rugby in Italy? You know, and for these guys to be competing and sitting at the top table and being the best in the world is honestly, it's phenomenal if you if you look back at it. You guys of South Africa, where you've got hundreds of thousands of people that play the game and the competit competition and it's your number one sport too. You know, same with New Zealand. You know, there's only a small, small batch of people that actually play the game, but it is their number one sport.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So it's it's different. It means, you know, your South Africa's New Zealand's, it's more than just a game of rugby.
SPEAKER_03:Hmm. I think it's fascinating, Mike, how you talk about the background shapes the way you play. So you said your upbringing in South Africa actually created this competitive edge around you. You're you're talking about the the type of sports that are played in Ireland, the the hurling and the Gaelic influences the way they can play the game. You you're and I and if you can tap into that emotional drive, it becomes more than a game. I think it's it's it's really fascinating how it you acknowledge the background plays a big part. And then if you can tap into that background, it actually magnifies it even more. Like what Rassi's doing as an Afrikaans person that knows the psyche of all the players, he's able to tap that emotional drive to make them feel like it's more than the game, and then it overemphasizes the way they play and and play harder and more competitively because he's he's got a drill that goes straight to the heart of what actually makes them work, right?
SPEAKER_02:Because the country cares, it matters.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, the country cares. It matters, yes.
SPEAKER_02:It matters, it's not just a game, it matters, you know, and and this is where Andy's so especially Faz, you know, Rusty's done an exceptional job at it too. They they all all the you know, Wayne Smith, you know, talking to Wayne Smith about it, you know, when he was with Italy with us and and how they chopped and changed things as they went through, you know, all the failures they went into then winning two in a row, World Cups in a row type thing, you know, they made it more than just a game of rugby. Well, it is more than just a game of rugby in New Zealand. It's I don't know, I don't know what the word is, religion or whatever. It's it's it's as you know, it's yeah. How do rugby plus how do you do it, mate?
SPEAKER_03:How how do you do it now, trying to tap into a foreign country like Australia, trying to tap into that psyche to burrow down to the hearts of the players to make them make a matter for them?
SPEAKER_02:Well, that's why I'm not the head coach. I'll let Dan McKellar, who's Australian, do that. You have a much better understanding of actually, you know, how it works and what has worked in the in the in the in the past and stuff. Um so so for me, for me, I'm really focusing purely on the the skill side of it, upskilling players get a better understanding, and then Dan's the one that sort of comes more into the the the bigger picture stuff and and the cultural stuff that comes that comes with it. But um, and again, there's there's there's a lot of history there that that you can tap into. Um and I think Australia need to find that again. You know, they need to find it. It's it's um they've got the athlete, but again, you know, rugby union, what I've seen, you competing against your your your your rugby league, your AFL, your football, all that sort of stuff. And if if you're not successful here in Australia, you you don't get much airtime. So we need to get we need to get Waratars back up to the to the top, and and and wallabies need to be winning on a consistent basis. They they should be. They've they've got the athletes. They've definitely got the athletes, and now it's it's it's how we can fine-tune them to go back and eat at the big at the at the main table at the top of World Rugby, because that's where they should be.
SPEAKER_03:And it's a bit of a balance, isn't it? Like we're talking here about some of the cultural aspects, but the when we're talking about cultural aspects, we're not neglecting the the performance aspect, and we're not neglect neglecting the skill sets and things like that. They all they all work together, don't they? That's we're not just saying focus on the space and nothing else. You've got to do it together.
SPEAKER_02:You have to. You have to, you have to, yeah. It has to be all together, and it should be. It's the package deal. And and when you get to the top, that's where you can you can tweak things, go down the emotional route a little bit more. But upskilling of individuals and getting them to understand the game, um for me is very interesting at the moment. Uh, because especially coming down to Australia, in in in the UK and Ireland and Italy and all that sort of stuff, because of the weather. Everybody knows how to kick a ball. Everybody knows, and everybody knows in Australia, everybody knows how to kick a ball. When you're in school in in Australia, very rarely are you taught how to kick the ball or or or get manage a game or anything like that. The problem is when you get to super rugby into your international rugby, you need a kicking game. You need a kicking game. So I I feel that a lot of the time is, although you're producing these incredible athletes, some of them the kicking side of the game is neglected. And that's where where you come up against a team that can match you physically or match you with that physical ability, then you know you've got to have this ability in your armory. So that's I'm going down hard on the on with with the world at the moment. Everybody's got to kick a rugby ball and learn how to kick it.
SPEAKER_03:That's right. And it doesn't help with the with the Ranwick field that you're looking over that our sons play for, that they have a policy of zero kicking allowed. You get you get yelled out if if you if you're on five meters out, it's the expectation is you play, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, well, I'm trying to change that at the moment. So we'll uh good luck here. No, it's very interesting.
SPEAKER_03:It's very interesting. Now, mate, how how we're talking about evolving players, uh, Mike, but how do you keep evolving as a coach? Obviously, you love your attack side. How do you keep relevant? How do you keep upskilling at the level you're at, mate? Because you have to be on top of your game. How do you make sure you're growing your craft as a coach?
SPEAKER_02:I think the nice thing about my sort of role is I've never stayed in one place for too long. So what I learned with England under Stuart Lancaster, um, working with Andy as assistant coach, Graham Roundtree. I sort of took some of that when I went to Italy with Connor O'Shea. So I introduced that. I then learned a lot from the Italians and how, you know, you you you you were competing against the best in the world, so you were losing on a regular basis. So what did it become? It became more of an individual focus where I was trying to make the player individually better. Although you knew as a team you're pretty much going to lose because you very rarely won against your top teams. They were at that stage where they are uh, you know, seven, eight years ago. And then taking that across to Ireland and working with Andy again was very exhilarating because he wanted to change the way that that Joe had played the game. Joe Smith had played previously for the previous and was very successful. He wanted to change that a little bit. Um, and so we went down a completely different route in terms of what do we need to do. And we didn't know where we were going. This was just, and we just figured it out along the way. We knew we we had a backbone of things we were going to look at, but um that calmness and decision making, all that sort of stuff is something that we really went hard into on the back of. And then obviously, all I learned working with your Paula Connell, Simon Easterby's, and and especially under Andy, um to bring that knowledge to another environment for me has been gold. So, not that it works, and some of the things do work, some of them don't work. So I've I've had to pick and choose a little bit this this last year, but it's been really interesting how quickly Northern Hemisphere and Southern Hemisphere, things work or don't work, what they want, what they don't want. Um, it's it's been been incredible. But I've so I've learned little bits all along the way, and because I've been four or five years stints, pretty much, I've been able to introduce the new stuff that I've learned that I've learned that I've learned that into another. Like I'm changing the way the few things I did did with Ireland, I'm changing a few things that I'm doing now with Warataur sort of thing. So that sort of stuff is all. It just evolves. And again, if you study it and you love it and want to do it, um, you understand the calibre of play you've got, then you know, you just keep you just keep growing, I suppose. You just keep I don't even say it's growing, I just keep loving it.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, that's a lovely phrase. Not growing, just keeping on loving it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, because you you'd yeah. What I'm learning more from my 14-year-old than I am from some of these guys trying to coach my 40-year-old. Awesome.
SPEAKER_03:Love it. Mate, well, here's a question for you. You talked then about you never stayed too long in one place. What do you reckon? Is the ultimate time for a coach before they should move on in order to I don't think there is.
SPEAKER_02:I don't think there is one. I don't think there is one. I think there's there's such a high turnover turnover of player players come and go. Um I think if if if if you're successful and you keep going and you have core values or core people, certain coaches will move on, or SNC will move on, or whatever. There's always shift and change. Um so I don't I I just think it's for me, it's always just been about opportunity.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:You know, and I've been very fortunate and very lucky to be given an opportunity, and most of the time it's been relatively successful.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. I also loved how you just talked about how that little time of Italy, mate, and how how the losing actually you grew a lot through the losing element. And you were mentioning that it drove you to focus a bit more on the individuals and just making sure they got better each time rather than, I presume, getting too caught up in the team's loss.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, because it it could absolutely break you. Yeah. It genuinely could. It's soul destroying losing when if you've grown up in a certain way, a certain thing, you know. I don't I wasn't grown up a loser, sort of thing, you know, and then all of a sudden you're in an environment where shit, and and you've you've given everything, but it's just not you just and you understand it. The quicker you accept it and go, right, okay, what am I doing? What's right, the right thing for me to do is this develop these players. Right, somebody's playing against Daniel Carter, right? What is you, what do you do better than him, or what do you do that's relevant to him? And you just build that that relationship, I suppose, with the players, and and they feel they're getting better. They they feel that they're getting better all the time. And then, you know, then all of a sudden we we we actually beat South Africa once, which was absolutely incredible with Italy, you know, never unheard of, really. And we ended up beating beating them in um in in Italy, and it was just the most amazing, amazing thing. And you can see the all of that hard work that they go through. And they do, they work exceptionally hard. So um, I mean, they're playing some amazing rugby now.
SPEAKER_03:That's right.
SPEAKER_02:They they're definitely eating at the top table there. So, but yeah, but that last thing was was tough, really, really tough. And as a coach, you sit there and you go, How am I gonna get employed? Who's gonna take me now? Do you know what I mean? It's like, yeah, you're not successful, so why? Who's gonna take you? So that's why I was I was you know, my relationship with Andy, and I was I was I was I was hugely or am hugely grateful that that you know he wanted me to come on board with him in in Ireland because you do as a coach going, oh, where do I go from here? And very lucky, and it's sort of been my whole sort of career, really. I've just been able to write, you know, things have jumped in my way, and I've just taken the opportunity and gone with it. So so I must be doing something right, I suppose.
SPEAKER_03:Exactly right. And sometimes too, like, like it's the way you leave people, the way you leave individuals, like um, they're your biggest cheerleaders, aren't they? They're the ones that um future coaches look to regardless of result, and they ask the players that you've coached, what is he like? And that's the feedback that actually keeps you relevant, keeps you getting roles, because the people that you're improving are speaking highly of you. I think that's always a really good thing to nice thing to know because the team results, Italy are massively disadvantaged compared to all the other six nations, and everyone's aware of that. So then that little bit of insight by individuals is actually really important.
SPEAKER_02:They were, they're not now, they were. They were, they they they they they play some ex brilliant rugby at the moment. They do, they're definitely sitting at the top table on the back of it. So that's pretty yeah, very tough.
SPEAKER_03:Mate, that's that's right, mate. So and and well, I guess I wanted to ask this question, mate, because I remember this when I was little, and you've probably had it a gazillion times, but yeah, you know what I'm gonna talk about, I think. Just that one incident that that loss of yours with 1995 when Lomu ran over you. I loved it, being a New Zealander. But what was the response in the change room from the coach after that? What what could what what what do you remember from that? Like how do you how does a coach talk to that incident?
SPEAKER_02:Um well, what can he? He's just been hammered by 40 points. Um, you know, you've just been knocked out of a World Cup. So um I think the the way I sort of looked at it um was everybody knew I was by the end of that World Cup, all for the wrong flipping reasons, but everybody knew I was, and Jonah Lomo, that clip gets shown every four years. Even now I get kids coming up to me going, oh, I saw you on YouTube, you're run over by Jonah Lomu. But I think um those are the things that I mean, that game was an incredible game. I mean, Jonah, you know, he he pretty much changed, changed rugby union that that World Cup, you know, and and people forget that you know Jonah was part of one of the most incredible rugby teams. That New Zealand team was, I mean, Zinzan Brook did a 45-meter drop goal, and it's the back row. Everything just went their way. And even to that day, you know, you I still remember the the the the team meeting on the Friday night. Jack Raoul was our coach at the time. And he said to the Underwood brothers, because they were on the wings and they were actually marking Jonah, and they they asked them, like, what are you gonna do? What are you gonna do to stop Jonah? Oh, we're gonna get in close, we're gonna, you know, we're not gonna give him any space or anything like that. And 18 hours later, the ball goes over the top. Tony Underwood is nowhere to be seen, nowhere to be seen. And Lomu gets the ball in 40 meters of space. And if you look at the clip again, actually, Will Carling coming across, he ankle taps Jonah. Yes, yes. So Jonah then starts stumbling as an 18-stone player with a gait like unbelievably big. You can't get your arms wrapped around it. And and he's stumbling towards me. So like the the three tries he's fought after that one, he just ran round me. But unfortunately, this time he was stumbling and he had to run over something, so I had to just put myself in the way. And all of a sudden, you just yeah, the next thing is I'm lying on my arse and looking back, and there's Jonah scoring the first try of four or five that he scored that day, and and I turned back around, and there's Robin Brooke over the top of me going, mate, there's a lot more of that to come. It was like, oh my god, here we go. Just an incredible experience to be part of a game like it. And I and I and I and I I laughed at it from day one. I mean, it was it was it was hilarious. It is hilarious, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:You know? So can you laugh at the games now, Mike? Can you laugh at maybe like at a loss like you did then? No, no. What's changed?
SPEAKER_01:It's brutal.
SPEAKER_02:It's it's um what's changed? Um that's a good question. What's changed? Um I suppose there's a bit more of an expectation. Um it's bigger. I don't know, but I don't know.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, because it does feel like it's changed, mate. Like an expectation you couldn't be seen to be laughing at or just shrugging the shoulders and going, oh well, it's you know, that guy's gonna be.
SPEAKER_02:Well, the nice thing about social media this day and age is they do, they all like that one hit or or something it's done super special or something like that, they all put music to it and it becomes a the laughing stock with a big hit or anything like that. So they do actually in their own their own funny way. Um But yeah, I I suppose not many of those things happen anymore because they're all in cr you know, they're all way bigger than Jonah Lomo was now. That's right. They're all the same size as Jonah was back then. Remember, it was amateur days, you know, they that yeah. Just the the yeah, it was they they were just different athletes. And you and the English, you never play New Zealand very often, never played South Africa very often, stuff like that. So there were different animals, different animals. There was a huge, huge physical difference between the two, but and skill and all that sort of stuff. But now everybody's pretty much on that level par now. There's very rarely do you see big incidents like that. Um mind you, how Damien McKenzie scored that try on the weekends pretty special as well against Scotland. It was just freakishly good for a for a smallish, smallish guy doing that. But yeah, no, it's it's yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I s I surmise a little bit like this, mate. Like we're we're all pretty aware that when you just do the stats like that, like Jonah is not a big guy in today's rugby environment. He's just yeah, like he's big-ish, but he's it is the athletes have just changed through the roof, and we're all aware of that. But then when we come back to the point of the show, in the same time, culturally, the dynamics of teams have shifted equally so. Like they're they're no longer sort of a one-dimensional drink a few beers after a game, that'll be good for team culture. It's it's so much more evolved. There's so many more dynamics now. There's so many things at play compared to what team environments looked like 20 years ago at the 99 World Cup, right? Like it's yeah, that comparison is the Jonah is no longer the big guy anymore, and the cultures are no longer the same at all anymore. It's the whole landscape has changed.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, the connect the connection is is is is different. How you connect with people, there's a lot more movement of people and players from country to country, from club to club. There's a lot more of that. Whereas again, back in the day, you're very loyal. There was a big loyalty thing. Not many people moved. No, not many people moved. And um where that's definitely changed now. Yeah, it's a job, it's a full-time job. It's not it's not a hobby anymore. It's not a, you know, you you you you're getting paid to do a to do something like that is is pretty special. But yeah, the connection, the connection, connection piece, you you've got to connect with people quicker. How do you do it? I think you've got to drive it in your culture. So your head coach has got to drive stuff like that. So the fun you have. So we've got a guy, um, Lockie McCaffrey. Um, he drives all our connection piece. Um, incredible bloke, incredible knowledge of people around him. Well, well, you know, it's going to the races together, it's getting on a boat together, it's it's, you know, getting down the beach or running your QG steps and then coming down and and and having a coffee on the beach in the morning. It's doing uh a get-to-know a tar type thing every Thursday afternoon where he sits there and he interviews a player and players can ask questions and stuff. And I think that's the connection. The backs going out together and the forward's doing this and they're doing that, little prizes that you give to to guys that perform during the week, or just the little things that build the connection within the team. But it's got to be driven from from the top, but then the players have got to drive it. It has to, it has to be the players that drive it. But the coaches have got to implement it. And having somebody like Lockie McCaffrey in there who's exceptionally good with it, is and it just shows the caring side of it, you know, care and connected.
SPEAKER_03:It's it's sort of just hollows, isn't it? The the connections, the games, the little things, the coffees. That stuff is the new reality, isn't it? Like whether you like it or not, that's the reality of team sports, probably not just rugby, but modern team sports and team environments. Those things are actually what you gotta do if if you want to have a good one.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, but it's like, you know, just little things like end of a week, you bring your whoever you support NRL, you wear your rugby jersey in the gym for that that session, and you have a bit of banter with everybody, and you you you you you you do it that way sort of thing. Um I know New Zealand used to do the wear their club socks or their club jersey to a to a team meeting on a Tuesday night. They would then have a drink and they'd get players to stand up and and speak about where they came from and how they got to where they got to. So all that stuff is because there's there's so many things in players' lives that people don't know about. Yes. Yes. And and if you could tap into that sort of side of it, it becomes a lot more personal. You get a lot more connected, and therefore you do work that extra little bit harder for your mate next year. And you do drive, you do drive. You know, you want to be together. You know, Sydney's a big place. Sydney's a big place, but there's no excuse. If you want to be connected to this team, you have to get together. And you've got to make an effort to get together, and you've got to want to do it. And if you want to do something, it'll work.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, if you want to do something, it'll work.
SPEAKER_02:That's the want, Ben. You gotta want to do it. If you want to catch a highball, you've got to catch a highball. You gotta want to, you gotta want to do it.
SPEAKER_03:I love it, mate. I love that immensely, mate. And Sydney is a very big place, mate. It's um a very big place to but to be fair, there's so many great spots to connect to beaches and things that it's it's not really a chore. Now, Mike, we've got to the end, mate. This is absolutely flown by, so I'd like to ask you this last question, my friend. Is this what is one belief you have about culture that you reckon your peers or contemporaries would disagree with?
SPEAKER_02:Take that. Oh I don't I don't see I'm one of those pla people that that don't look too deeply into things, Benny. I don't I don't I don't look too deeply into into things. Um I don't know, because so many people disagree with so many different things. You know, you're not gonna please everyone. Um but if you can get the majority of people believing in what you do or how you do it, or how you think culture should be run, then then great. But I I think I don't know. I don't know. That's a tough question to ask, answer, mate. Sorry. I'm I'm not gonna I'm not gonna be able to answer that. Oh mate, because it's all relevant. It's it's all so relevant. Everything we suppose is all so relevant if if it's yeah, fun enjoyment, um loving it.
SPEAKER_03:What about this one for you, Mike? That when you get run over by an absolute legend and icon of the game, it's okay to sit and smile and laugh. A lot of people would disagree with that, I reckon. But you've said today that you just had to.
SPEAKER_02:Otherwise, the other funny thing, the other funny thing to that is everybody forgets that eight years later I was lifting a World Cup trophy and Jonah never left one. Poor bugger. If anybody deserves to lift a World Cup trophy, it was Jonah Lomu. Yes. So I I could just come straight back. So whenever I get abused like that, I go, well, unfortunately, at least I won the World Cup in 2003. So that that sits nicely with me.
SPEAKER_03:I love him, mate. That's a South African competitive upbringing, mate, from your portal upbringing.
SPEAKER_01:Arrogance or whatever you call it. But anyway, yeah. It's a good comeback line. It's a good comeback line.
SPEAKER_03:Now, Mike, what a pleasure to have you uh on the podcast. And I'd like to finish with just summing up my three takeaways from this conversation, this awesome conversation with you, mate, whilst you've been sitting watching the sun go down on Kooji Beach. Number one, this concept of no dumb questions in a culture. And I love it because we we briefly talked about an old culture was about surviving and the new culture is about thriving. And in new cultures, there's no dumb questions. Questions of any sort add to clarity. And if you're thinking it, there's a high probability someone else in the group is thinking the same. So having a culture where there's no dumb questions is a great culture to have. Number two, I really enjoyed how you talked about calmness, it's almost like a skill set you can work on, and it's been a big focus for you in all the teams you've been in. You made the phrase that if you go at 100% at what you're doing, you don't always get to feel what success looks like and feels like. So calmness is a mental state and a physical thing you can train. And when you knock down the intensity to 30-40%, you get to learn how the movement in action feels, and then you can build it up. I think it's a great reinforcement for a lot of coaches to remember that calmness, both physically and mental, is a great thing for rugby players to do because they are in a game which inherently isn't calm. So it's wonderful. Number three, this phrase about making it matter, and this is huge for culture. Make it matter, make it more than a game. And you talked about Rasi particularly, and um Andy Farrell about making the country care because the country does care and making your players aware, but it's not just at international level, it's whatever level you're playing at, whether you can make a matter to the people that are playing the game for you as a coach, make it more than a game, make them representing and doing something for a cause and something bigger than the game itself. My cat, what an absolute pleasure to have you on the Coaching Culture podcast today.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you very much for having me, Ben.