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Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Zane Hilton: I Was A Bad Player, So I Coached Instead
What if the most important part of coaching isn’t the playbook, but the five-minute chat before training? We sit down with Zane Hilton, assistant coach of the Queensland Reds, to unpack a career built on process, simplicity, and relentless human connection—despite never having played professionally. Zane’s story spans Italy, Japan, Samoa, Tonga, and Australia, revealing how culture becomes real only when it shows up in behavior under pressure.
We dig into his coaching methodology—train well, understand the game’s detail, embrace aggression as mindset, and work hard—and why the order of care, connect, then challenge turns feedback into lasting growth. Zane shares how learning Italian and Japanese unlocked trust and clarity, letting him coach without a translator and proving that language is a competitive advantage. He recalls a turning point with All Blacks legend Chris Jack, who demanded to be coached harder, and explains why elite players often need more precision, not less.
From dynamical systems thinking to practical practice design, Zane shows how to add purposeful stressors that teach accountability, reduce perfectionism, and prepare for game-day chaos. We explore cultural lessons from around the world: Japan’s systems and work ethic, Italy’s passion, and the Pacific Islands’ deep sense of purpose. Finally, we challenge the myth of recruiting only “good blokes,” arguing for a balanced lens of character and capability so players can truly add to the environment.
If you lead teams—or want to—this conversation gives concrete tools: finish prep before players arrive, talk to everyone daily, keep calls and cues simple, and be yourself without apology. Subscribe, share with a coaching friend, and leave a review with the one practice you’ll try this week.
If you can SUBSCRIBE, RATE, and SHARE the show and series, you would be doing your bit to grow this show. Very appreciated. Ben
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Look, to be fair, I just wasn't a good player, but I very much had the the want to coach all the way through. If you don't have a rapport, if you don't have their respect first, don't think you're going to make pivotal change in people's lives. I wanted to understand coaching methodology and and culture and understand how to put teams together and how to do it very well. Probably the most important thing for me to do to be able to connect with people is learn the language. I there's there's not um I'm okay with losing because that's a learning experience. No problem. But I don't like it. Everyone has a different motivation. Every person in the team has different motivation, but it's our job is to understand it and assess it. Help them with that.
SPEAKER_00:Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I've been hearing up in the loving the start of the game for bloody ages. Today's guess to Zane helped me. Zane is the assistant coach of the Queensland race of Superworth rugby. Now, Zayn is a rare breed of professional coaches that moved up the ranks without ever playing professional rugby. His journey has taken him from a manager's role with Queensland and across all aspects of rugby, from manager to GM, high performance, director of rugby, and of course coaching. And he has coached all over the world, from Italy to Japan to Samoa, Tonga, Melbourne, and now back 23 years later, where it all started at the Queensland Red. Dane Hilton, welcome to the Coaching Culture Podcast. And what a journey that sounds like it's been.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, thanks, Ben. Great to be here, mate. I uh thanks for having me on. And yeah, it's been some journey. When you listen to it like that, it um, you know, it's great. And it is nice to hear, you know, you've come through all you know, I've done all aspects, right? Like I've, you know, that's that's been the enjoyable part. Understanding all at all levels. It is, it's been a great journey. It's been fun.
SPEAKER_00:Mate, and it's such a cross-section of skill sets, too, isn't it? Like just for the viewers' references, like a director of rugby to a general manager, to a high performance manager, to a coach, they're all nuances of rugby, but they're very different skill sets required, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, they really are. Like, I feel like um, you know, and you're you're very much learning um within every role, but there's also at the same point, uh same time, there's there is crossover, um, and you know, there's key things that you still do consistently. Um, you know, I call it, I've got a bit of a saying, just be normal. Um so, you know, I still feel I just still feel along the way you've still got to be normal. So yes, there's a different set of skill sets and you learn those as you go, but at the same time, um, it does come down to who you are as a person and how you get your message across, how you communicate. Um, and I still feel like you know, they're they're easily the key traits that need to be consistent across all roles you do.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I love it, mate. Well, it's really uh cool that you say just be normal because you're probably anything but normal, that you unlike most professional rugby coaches, you've never played professionally. And I know a lot of the listeners to this won't be professional players, and they'll be asking the question that I'm dead keen to know about is how did you become professional, mate? And and when did when did the bug light up and how did you how did you do it?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's a great question. Look, to be fair, I just wasn't a good player. Like I was like, that's that's the you know, to be all into all being honest. Like I, you know, I enjoyed playing rugby, you know, played premier grade here in Brisbane, Armad Brothers River Clove, and loved every bit of that. But I very much had the the want to coach all the way through. Even when I was playing, I was still working as a development officer at the Queensland Reds, so at Queensland Rugby, and also coaching the Nudgy First 15, which was my old school. Um, so for me, there was no like it's the only job I've ever had outside of being a plasterer way back when. Um, you know, I, you know, right back at the start, but um, it's the only job I ever wanted to do, and I wanted to be good at it. I wanted it with I always saw that was go this was going to be my profession. Um, I understood that, you know, right from the outset, I wanted to understand coaching methodology and and culture and understand how to put teams together and how to do it very well. Um, so I you know, I love the process of coaching and our teams come together, and that's the part that drives me, the process. Not necessarily like for me, game day is great. Now, I love watching the players doing what they do, but really my game day and our as coaches, I genuinely believe that the process during the week, every single day is our game day. Every interaction we have with a player, every interaction we have with a staff member, every interaction you have with the public, that's our game day. And I treat it like that, and I'm really hard on myself to make sure that um you get it right all the time. And you don't always write, but when you don't get it right, you've got to learn from it. So it's that process that's just evolved over the last 23 to 24, and I love it more now than when I first started, to be honest. I really do. Like it's the greatest job ever. Um, it can be taxing, but the process and the way it comes together is you know, it's uh it's a science, it's an art, it's a you know, it's it's awesome. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Mate, and I I love that like like just when you talk about coach coaching methodology, how do you define what that is for you?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's a good point. So like philosophy is one way is is is different to methodology in my mind. Um, the way I see methodology is the way in which we put the team together, um, both off-field coaching staff, the way the off-field staff go together, if you're in a role that does that. And then there's the on-field. So the way the program gets put together, how you train, um, the expectations you put around the playing group to do that, how you um create an environment, how you create an environment that drives success, that drives competition. You play a small part in that, but ultimately that accountability is the players. And but you play a part in driving them to that point and be having a method and how you go about that. My methodology is really simple. You've got to train well. I know this is gonna sound really, really simple. Um, you've got to train well, so you've got to prepare well, both athletically and from a rugby perspective. You've got to understand the game. So there's a there's a detail that comes with this game, and don't shy away from the heart uh from that. The game's aggressive, right? You've got to you've got to be aggressive and you've got to love that part of it. And you know, that doesn't mean that it's one-dimensional by any means, but there is a nature or there's part key elements to our game, key fundamentals that that demand physicality and collision and winning that. And that's more a mindset than actually, you know, the physical side this side of it. The last part's very much around hard work, like people respect hard work, right? Like, um certainly, you know, being up here in Queensland, this isn't it's an easy one for us at the Reds because as Queenslanders, people respect teams that work hard, but the part for coaches is we have to live that every day. So we have to be an example of how we go about that. So I love um, I enjoy working hard, I enjoy um being prepared and the detail that comes with that, but that doesn't mean that you're rigid. The one thing I've probably learnt from Les um over the last two years has been think outside the box, be adaptable. Um not everything's gonna be, you know, not everything's gonna be in a square peg. And that's been a great journey for me working with him as well. But so for me, that's you know, that methodology part is very much four-pronged. I think um it is a key part of who I am around the way I I like teams to work.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and and you must have had a real fire on you at roughly 20 years old to go, this is me, and then start like a 20-year-old trying to aspire to be a coach. It's it's it's not common, is it? It's uh it's an uncommon pursuit so early in life. What what was the you know, what was the start point for you? Where did why did you start it and and yeah, where did you start?
SPEAKER_01:Like Yeah, it's a good point. Um my first probably my first coaching role was um was actually back at my old school. So I had I'd gone overseas for a couple of or for a year out of school, and then came back and I was straight away working in the boarding school there and working at Queensland Rugby straight away. So I was working in in the development in community rugby, but also coaching the first 15 um with a a grunt man named Peter Gledhill, who's the first 15 coach, who was the Australian school board coach, Queensland School Board Coach for a long time. Um so he'd coached me, and he was like, I he he he saw he's he was very clear with me around oh look, I I think you'll be good at this. I think this will be something that you really enjoy. And and honestly, like it does probably come down the line a lot with my philosophy. One of the things that I really enjoy, I'm I'm incredibly competitive. Um I hate there's there's not um I'm okay with losing because that's a learning experience. There's no problem, but I don't like it. So like I I'm happy to learn, like I'm there's no problem with losing. Um I learned from it, but I really don't like it. And I think um you've you know that's an important part of being successful. You've got to not like not enjoy not enjoy losing. Um and there's a real fear and spite around making sure that you're the best at what you do. But um, but certainly Peter Gledhill was um he was instrumental really in terms of wanting me to get into coaching, and honestly, I went from there and I just absolutely, I absolutely loved it, mate, every single minute. My philosophy is very clear, um, and it drives me every day because it's a really simple one. Essentially, my philosophy is around making assisting people be better. So both myself and others. And I know that sounds really simple. Um, there's a lot that goes into it, but there's a there's a care, there's a connection piece, um, and there's a challenge piece as well. And that's you know, I know I've stolen those three words from Les because care, connect, and challenge is very much our mantra up here. But I uh I love living that every single day because to make people better, you've got to you've got to care for them and you've got to earn their respect. You've got to connect with them for, you know, secondly, um that allows you to do that, that respect. But then you've got to challenge that because the only way to get better is to be able to challenge it. And once you've got the respect, you can do that to make people better. And I I love helping people be better because it makes me better.
SPEAKER_00:I love that little order you've got there, because those things are sequential, isn't it? Like you can't challenge uh before you've had a little bit of connection, and you you can't get connection unless you care enough to actually make it in the first place, right? Do you think that's something that a lot of coaches slip up on? They go straight to the challenge and think they have to be hard and and do that stuff before they've built that rapport and trust underneath.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think so, mate. I think maybe even I did, I I know I did very much very early on. Um, you know, I could if I couldn't get my message across, I would get angry and you know, trying to make people accountable and thought that was the only way to do it. But um certainly you can get it wrong. There's a real balance, I feel. But you know, since Les has made it very, very clear for me and um that order of care, and I've always been a care person, I've always been a connect person, because I've had to be, but that order is critical around how you approach um being able to give feedback and helping people be better. If you don't have a rapport, if you don't have their respect first, I just don't, I don't you may make an impression, you may get a result really quickly and in a short period of time, but I don't think you're going to make systemic change and pivotal change in people's lives. Because essentially, and and Ben, you know this, right? Like you you're a great coach in your own, right? Like our j we take people on a journey. Like, yeah, we that's the greatest part about what we do. You know, every every season, um, every cycle, um, you know, every week, you know, we take the team and the people under your care on a journey. And, you know, we've got to bring them along with us with us, bring people along with us on that journey. And if we don't can connect to that, then really you're just in the boat by yourself, mate. You're in the boat by yourself, and uh, you think you're doing a good job, but you're actually uh, mate, it's not going anywhere.
SPEAKER_00:No, uh like I I I I must say, Zayn, those two words, systemic and pivotal change in people is what we're trying for. That those are big words, those are deep words. I I I haven't heard them spoken on this podcast before. Systematic, systemic and pivotal change in people. Taking people and the team on a journey. You gotta bring people with you. I like it, mate. Like, is is that sort of is that pivoted a lot for you? Like you said you started off potentially challenging too early and and not getting that systemic change. Is that is that something which really underpins your earlier coaching days?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think so. And it probably um even just as I probably matured, but I reckon, like um, you know, because I always had this approach of the way I played the game in an aggressive way, but the game back then dictated that. And I thought that that's who people thought I had to be. I had to be this big and aggressive guy, and when I coached and had to drive everyone that way, and because to be fair, you know, like don't get me wrong, I can be sharp and I can be, you know, I can be really direct at times, but at times early in my career I felt like I just went over the top with it. There's no doubt. You know, we we won a we won a first grade premiership at Brothers in 2009, and I coached that group, um, and they were all my friends. So like that was the you know, I'd I'd gone there and I basically treated that the club hadn't won a premiership in 20, 27 years. It was like, right, let's take this seriously. They were all my mates I'd played with the whole way through, had come through school with a lot of them, and I'll be honest, like I drove that with an absolute sledgehammer. And I can tell you, like, there's things now that I look back and I go, wow, we were successful, we won. But just because you get success doesn't mean that um, yes, you've achieved, but have again, have you really made a difference? You know, with we played well, we played some great footy, and those people are all still my friends, but there'd definitely be some of the conversations I think back now with those people, and go, yeah, I got that one wrong. I'd probably I'd love a crack at that one again. I've told yeah, I've had a few of those conversations with a few of the boys recently as well. Like just, you know, they're uh but again, that's that's the great thing about teams, right? It's like a family, so they also are happy for you to grow and they see you growing within that.
SPEAKER_00:That that's definitely true, isn't it? There's a lot of forgive in coaching, like um as long as you're uh seen to be actually making an effort, like all part past grievances most of the time can be sort of l let slipped on. Um I actually find that funny, mate. Like I look back to some of my um least favourite coaches um or least successful coaches I had as pla as a player. And some of the some of the forgiveness that you do is quite amazing. I remember at the time being frustrated because we weren't doing X, Y, and Z, but now then you become a coach and you look back and go, actually, that guy did his best. Yeah, he was he was a lovely guy and he held himself and actually, yeah, give him a lot of reprieve. He he he handled himself well with what he had and all those things. And you don't really realise that till you become a little bit more experienced yourself, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I I think so. And I think you um you you understand that there's just so much more to it. Like the the success is such a such an outcome, right? And and everything has to go right, you know. I I'm a big fan of dynamical systems and uh systems theory, and dynamical systems theory talks about you know it uh ultimately everything being you know focused on game day, you know, and everything you do through in the week and throughout the cycle being based around game day. However, um the reality is there's 156 site uh systems within one professional sporting team. It's the most that there is in any system in any di system within the world. So it's that complex getting success that only one, you know, you've got to one thing may go wrong in the in the throughput or the output, and you're uh and you don't get that success. So yeah, we do. We've got to give people a break at times.
SPEAKER_00:Mate. And like a lot of coaches say they're they're striving for the perfect game, but the perfect game never happens, does it?
SPEAKER_01:That's just that that's certainly something I think of, you know, I I do at times feel like I'm a bit of a perfectionist and have been, but learning from Les, like perfection is the enemy of good. Um you know, it doesn't have to be perfect. That's right. It doesn't have to be perfect. Like um, you just have to every environment's different. You just have to react to it, and then you've got to be able to adapt. And that's one of the greatest lessons I've learned from him um in the last two years. Um, and again, he's an incredibly experienced coach and a an even better man. So um, you know, great lessons to learn for me, again, on my journey.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. What have you picked up from Liz Lescas? Um, you've been with him two years. Now, what's what's what is some of the gold that he's that he's dishing out on a regular basis?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, the gold comes in who he is as a person. Um, you know, he he talks about just being yourself. Um, I've never really been in a coaching team. This would be the first coaching team in the last two years that I've genuinely been able to be me. Um and and he always says to me, don't apologize for who you are, don't apologize for the intensity, don't apologize for who you are as a person because that's what makes you who you are. And and you know, that I I love that because for so many times I would always go into a coaching team and so many diff different groups, and and sometimes leading them as a head coach and or as a high performance manager, going, right, well, what does this team need? Bit of a community, can I do this? How have I got to be? But Les is all about you be you and as well with the players, treat the players like an individual, like a person. I know that sounds simple, but in practice, doing it every day is uh is tough, and that's that'd be the greatest lesson I've learned from him. Um one, be normal, so just and uh and don't apologize for who you are, I think would be the second one. But he's got an incredibly sharp mind around the game, obviously being up in Europe for a period of time, 14 years, um at international level as well. And he sees the game um in a you know in a really romantic way, which I really enjoyed. Um being a being a forwards coach, um people think I'm just all about scrums, line outs, and malls, but um I've coached many different areas and had to in my career, and I, you know, enjoy all parts of the game, but listening to Les talk about attack, um, you know, the width with which he wants to play with, um, the the work ethic that's needed within the the way you attack. Um Um you're yeah, it's uh they they would be the three things certainly I've learned from Les. I love it.
SPEAKER_00:I love that phrase, just the phrase and just don't apologize to who you are. Don't apologize about your intensity. That's a good one, saying, because so sometimes you can beat yourself up about some of your your traits, isn't it? And you kind of go, oh gee, that's not that's not what I should be. That perception piece of what a coach had to be that you had earlier on in your career, it's fine, it's you, be you. Yeah, you can't be yeah, you can't be an average version of someone else. You gotta be, you just gotta be you, right?
SPEAKER_01:I think so. That's a I I I I really believe in that. And I, you know, having done a uh going to a few coaching courses here in Australia, I, you know, I do feel like that's a great thing about coaching here in Australia, the diverse nature of the people we've got within the room, you know, Pacific Islander Nations, you know, there's Asian nations, you know, Asian people within the room and all think very differently around how the game they see the game differently. They um they look at things differently, and that's a they don't have to coach or be the way we are, just be them. It's a really exciting thing about our game, the world game. I love it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I love it too. And talking about a world game, mate, I want to dive into how you've then not been professional, 20 years old, you had a little stint in Queensland, being a manager there, and then you've basically taken on the world, mate, in all sorts of roles. You've gone over to Cudan in Japan, Canon in Japan, you've been to Trevisto in Italy, you've been with Samoa and Tonga as coaches, mate. What what was the the thinking? What was it just I need to get out and see the world? Do I need to try new things? What made you and how did you find these things? A lot of a lot of aspiring coaches will be like, how the heck's he done this?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's it's such a great question. It's uh hopefully I can do it in a short version. But um the uh ultimately um the way it worked was I was working as the re the academy manager at the Reds, like in a junior academy manager role, and uh Jeff Miller, who was a CEO at the time, basically came and said, Dano, I've got a job for you. Do you want to be mate of mine is a CEO at Terrizo in Italy? Do you want to go? Like I was 24, I think, 23, I think. And uh he said, mate, do you want to you're never gonna be a professional coach here at the Reds until you're older. You need more experience. And I was like, right, okay, sweet. So I went from there and became a skills coach, um, did the scrap help with the scrum and skills, and absolutely loved it. But ultimately, then coming back, so then my first stint up in Japan was um at the grace of um again, Adrian Thompson and Sean Hedger. So Adrian Thompson, who's a you know, uh Australian worked in Queensland rugby many years, Australia rugby Australia for many years, Pathways, great coach. He was leaving his role um at Kudan. Because I've done two stints at Kudan now. So I did a four-year stint and then a and then a five-year stint. And uh so mate, i they were happy to take a punt on a guy that uh was young and energetic, and and honestly, I can't be more grateful to Sean Hedger and Adrian Thompson around allowing me to come in and and do that. And the the players that I worked with in those first two years up there was simply amazing. You know, I had Chris Jack um with me in the Fords, um, who was older than me, and I had Chris Lathin in the backs. And uh there were many other players, but they're probably two that um had a huge lasting experience on me as a coach. Um, one little anecdote, the one little story there is Chris Jack. And I I've said this a lot to coaches that I've sort of spoken to, but um Chris Jack comes up to me after about two months of me coaching him, and Jacko had just finished playing for the All Blacks, he'd finished at the World Cup, he'd just lost to the Reds actually, um, in the Surf Rugby final with the Crusaders, and he's been with us three or four months. And he comes up to me one day, knocks on the front door, and he comes in and says, Um, I've got a question for you. I said, Oh, okay. And I was like, Oh, geez, he's a massive man, I'm only a short fella. And he goes, Um why don't you coach me? I said, What do you mean? He said, Well, you don't coach me, you coach everyone else in the team, you coach all the young Japanese blokes, but you don't coach me. What do you not think I'm good enough to be to you don't think I can get better? So I took something away from that. It was incredible. Um, Chris Jack, it's it's a real testament to who he is as a person too, right? Um, an incredible human and always wanted to continue to get better even in the twilight of his career. Him saying to me, a guy that's probably three or four four years younger, hey look, I can learn something from you. You can help me get better as a player. You're a good, you know, you're good at what you do. I need I need you to coach me. From that day, I think the the the um the heavens opened, I reckon. I've never I've coached the shit out of everything from every from day dot from then on. So uh that regardless of who they are, I'll just coach the shit out of it. Because if you know if Chris Jack or andor Chris Latham are saying to you, hey, I can learn from you, and they're younger than you, and you haven't got that experience, haven't played at it, if they think you can get better, then well, right, I'm gonna do my best to try and help everyone.
SPEAKER_00:Mate, that's a cool story, isn't it? It's a testament, isn't it, that the best cat players in the world want to be coached. Like you kind of it's easy probably to leave them behind because you've got the rest of the players to look after, but they need coaching and probably they need more coaching in a lot of ways because they're such high, you know, high performance. They want coaching, they want advice, they want a feedback, they want it after getting better.
SPEAKER_01:That that's a real testament, I think, to the great ones. You know, I think uh the great players, um, and you've coached a number of them, um, and you know, I've been lucky to coach a couple of them, um, and you know, hopefully a lot more. You can really tell early on the ones that want to get better, um, you know, and just want they're so coachable. It's it's just an absolute pleasure to work with them.
SPEAKER_00:And what a place to start, mate, when you're starting new in your career, you're getting you're getting exposure to great players like Chris Track, Chris Latham, like, and that's that's almost your star point, is it, as a young coach learning the ropes in an anonymous place like Japan, a little bit where you can make a lot of mistakes and experiment, and you have two legends of the game, they're just giving you little goal nuggets like that. What else did you pick up from Japan?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well my my experience in Japan was incredible. I l I love Japan, nine years in total. So Japan's very close to my heart. Um, probably the grow the you know, I certainly did this in Italy, and I was only in Italy two seasons, so it was about 18 months. So I was lucky enough to be able to learn the language really quickly in Italy, um, and you know, being able to, you know, pick and coach in Italian really quickly. Um, and I spent a lot of time being able to, you know, learn the language and and work with uh my ability to be able to get my message across. I then used the same system when I went to Japan. So um I I know this sounds uh I'm and believe me, I'm not a uh, you know, I I I'm not a language person. I've never didn't speak the language before I went, but um I I now speak quite well um to the point where I was coaching without um coaching without a translator for a period there, um conversing with players. But I saw it as probably the most important thing for me to do to be able to connect with people was learn the language. It was the one thing I spent hours and hours and hours learning, uh learning the language, so I could sit at dinner and have a conversation so that I could get my message across, um, so I could understand what was being said, and and to be honest, if that's I saw that as if we look at it in the three C's that I was talking about, the care part, um, it saw it showed people prior to the connection that I actually cared about the country. Um I actually cared about their culture and who they are, and I actually then wanted to get to their level to get to know them. And uh that that was certainly the I can't be more grateful for the Japanese people and the culture, certainly the two clubs I worked at. But from a rugby perspective, it's an interesting one, man. Like you've been up there. I love the Japanese capacity for work. Like there is there is wow, it is just you know it, and it's next level. Like, you know, like they just I I I think it's probably 10 to 15 percent on any any team I've worked worked elsewhere. Um they they just they just work hard, don't they? They love working hard, they love the detail, love oh, it's incredible how hard they work.
SPEAKER_00:It's incredible, mate. Like just the the just the time in sometimes. I always remember when we we went in to coach the university team and it was a three-hour training, and I was absolutely wrecked at the end of it. And then when we were walking off the field, a bus rolled up, and that same team we'd be training for three hours was then to play a game. And we spend the last 40 minutes just doing Henny Muller runs just because we'd had nothing else to give. We were toast. So they did a five-hour session, including a game, and not a single complaint. It was incredible.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and even and it is funny though, isn't it? Because the you know, the the great skill acquisition of 10,000 hours, right? Like the some of the skill sets of some of the players, the individual core skills are unbelievable. Like from line out throwing to goal kicking to you know, footwork on an edge to speed to chip and chase to kicking to catch pass. It's elite. Like there's some incredible players up there. Um, and you know, it's played at a hectic pace, the game up there. So that's certainly for me being something that I I like my teams to be fit, I like my teams to be physical, I like them to play fast. There's no doubt, um, there's no doubt in my mind that's the way I like the gameplay. And certainly up there, teams play fast, and you the decision making is fast. Um, and and obviously it's got a huge rugby culture too, right? So over the last 40 years, there's been a huge a number of foreigners that have gone up there, they've influenced the environments across a lot of different um a lot of different teams, and it it is an incredible competition.
SPEAKER_00:Mate, I I must take my hat off to you. Just listen to this. Like you've just gone over and coached in two places and you've learned two languages uh very well. And I just want to reflect on that a little bit because I think it's amazing that A, you cared enough to learn in the first place, like that's massive. I know most coaches don't when they are in Japan. Then the language gave you the ability to connect well, one of your C's, and then you earn the ability to challenge better because you could connect uh with people. And I just think mate, it's sort of testament to you and your sort of journey where you've been super focused and applied yourself from a 20-year-old, knowing this is my route, I'm gonna be the best that I can. You're competitive enough that you go, I want to be good at this. And I just think it's a testament to you that you realised how important it was to learn the language. Because language is how you connect with people, the simplest way, and that you went out of your way to to do this, mate. And how long did how long did that take, that process?
SPEAKER_01:Like, yeah, um, Italian was a lot easier than Japanese. So Italian, I was, you know, being able to, you know, converse probably within six months. Um the Japan Japanese, like I've I spent a long time there, so nine years. Um probably my second stint back there, my first certainly within two to three, I was co like being able to direct and quite directional, but by my because I had a gap of about four years um between those two stints. So by the time I went back to my fifth, by my sixth, I was yeah, I was dreaming in Japanese and dialed in and yeah, I um yeah, I I went really hard at that point to and I and I still really enjoy it. We were lucky enough we had Panasonic here recently um and we're up at the consulate, uh, Japanese consulate, and you know, I was it was great to be able to converse in Japanese again and after two years and and still speak and it was still there, and it yeah, it was it was great. Uh you don't want to lose it once you've got it.
SPEAKER_00:No. What a what a place to learn learn your craft, mate. Absolutely awesome. Uh absolutely awesome. And I think it's that's that's the trick just there, isn't it, mate? And because ultimately you went on and became director of rugby at CUDA, right? Like you weren't just the head coach, you became which for those who don't know, that's a huge role for a non-Japanese person to be given in Japan. That's very rare. Um, but it's testament to the application you did to assimilate and and buy into the culture, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it was um we we still had a a Japanese company man who was a kontaku, um, and uh he he was a again, as you know, the certain companies um very much they will be very cyclic around bringing in a kontaku. Um they may not have an awful lot of rugby experience. So um I was lucky enough in you know the fur the last three to four to step up into that role and and help him do all of that. But again, that was my skill set. Like I'd been in Samoa um as the high performance manager um and as well as coaching in the in the Manu, but um that was an easy transition for me because it was you know getting getting alignment from you know from boards right through is is a critical part of that, taking the board on the journey. Um but it's learning the language and understanding the culture was critical up there because there is a real that in itself can be quite there's a few uh bit of red tape you've got to get through as a Kon Toku up in Japan to be able to, certainly in the traditional clubs, to be able to get certain things across. Um but uh the man that I worked with, Akama-sun um up there was incredible. He I've never met a man who, a Japanese man in particular, who was just really honest and really open and just went, Hey, Zone, I I really not sure what I'm up to here. Um mate, let's if you you just tell me what we're you just tell me what we're gonna do here and uh and and just allow me the freedom to do it. And but at the same time, like there's a respect part that comes as part of that too, because I had I had to let him take a lot of the credit for a lot of that work. And that's okay. There's that's actually okay because ultimately that's the that's the gig, right? Like if you're you know, if you're working alongside one, you you just gotta take someone, you've got to take the ego out of it. As long as the team gets what it needs, um, and we're all going the same direction. It doesn't really matter who gets the credit, right?
SPEAKER_00:That's right. And and and that's interesting to say that ego piece, because that is a big part of coaching, A, is mastering your ego. Because coaching has a degree of ego to it, right? Like that, you know, you want to win, you want to do well, you want to succeed. That's part of what drives you as a professional is you want to be the best you can be. So the ego's you don't want to throw it away and say it's not important, you just want to master it so you don't become a servant to it and it makes you something you're not, right? Which can happen. Totally.
SPEAKER_01:Totally. And uh having an ego is healthy too, as you mentioned. Like that it is ego, but being able to understand um you such a great comment you've just made then.
SPEAKER_00:You know, not being a servant to it, so important. How do you do that? How do you not be, mate? Just make sure you get the contact who that's um yeah, doesn't know what he's doing, so he lets you lets you.
SPEAKER_01:No, I think just again, just um just being normal, mate. Like, I know I keep coming back to it, right? Like you know, I know I just keep coming back to it, right? Like I grew up on a farmbench, so like for me, like it's um mate, it's you know, all the sheep are gonna go in one direction, right? They've all got to go in the right direction. So, you know, it doesn't matter who's doing it, you can't do it by yourself.
SPEAKER_00:Well, mate, I I still think like not many normal people can go over to Italy as a young fella coaching as a very young man, learn the language in six months, then fly across to Japan and learn in a couple years and run a director of rugby of a big Japanese club. That's not normal, as much as you say the phrase that is not normal. So that's how you go from an uh mate. I d I never saw your play, but I'm gonna assume you're you went hard, but you didn't really cut it on a rugby field, and then you've really smashed it on the coaching because you're nailing this stuff. It's awesome. And mate, what while I'm talking about nailing what we haven't nailed in this conversation so far is a question which I normally ask right at the start, and I've I've delayed it because I've been so intrigued about this journey, about how you've gone about it. I'd love to ask now, how do you define culture?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think um for me, I again a really simple answer. I think it's very much the behaviors that people portray in certain environments. I think that's really, really important. Understanding that each environment is completely different. And every every environment might be completely different based on any given day, based on people's behaviours. So for me it's about understanding certainly within you know what is culture, but how do we how can we influence that? Um I feel like the greatest probably one of the greatest learnings I've had in my life is understanding that it is actually very hard to influence it on a daily basis. When you you know, if you're the only person driving it, as a as a coach in particular, but getting the players to understand their role in play in accountability and making each other accountable for the behaviors within that environment, that's what defines the culture. So getting them to understand and or articulate how they want to be perceived. I think that's a real art form. Getting them to understand how they want to be perceived, what behaviors that they want to do to be able to drive that, to be able to be able to achieve that. And then again, how are they going to make each other accountable on a daily basis? Because, you know, the but then as you know, I'm very aware of what my role is within that, and it's trying to exhibit those behaviors and really live them on a day-to-day basis and playing a part with the accountability, but ultimately it comes down to the playing group. So understanding what to how do we want to be perceived, what behaviour is it going to take to achieve that, how can we influence the environment, and how are we then going to make each other accountable? And what do you do, mate?
SPEAKER_00:Well what's your part in this? Like, how do you help players articulate how they want to be perceived?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I it's it's a ri that's a really good question because I feel like um the discussion point comes in understanding and not hiding away from the fact in professional sport we want to win. So actually getting them to understand it's okay to want to win. And that's actually okay. Yeah, I know that sounds ridiculous, but don't like don't be afraid of the winning part. Like it's actually okay to win. And it's okay to openly say we want to win this. Because um, and and then okay, then we just dial it back, right? Well, what behaviours do we need to do? What what you know, what is it that we need to do daily to be able to do this? Okay, well it when and then the the hard part comes in the intervention part as a coach. So for me, I feel like my role is then intervening when people aren't doing it. It's the kind of conversations and the timing of those conversations you're having. And I'm not talking about like formal one-on-one meetings. That's not, you know, it's not though having one-on-one meetings every day. It's it's basically saying, you know, the, you know, the the most important thing you day you do each day as a coach, I believe, is talk to every is talk to the playing group. The most important thing you do every day is chat to chat to people inside. Because that essentially is the influence you're having over them. How was your day? How was last night? How how are you going? What's your focus today? What are you looking at after post-session or post-gym? Did you achieve that? Whereas it you having small interventions consistently, you're then connecting with them consistently, and you and you're then showing them you care consistently. And then at the end of the day, as a player walks off, you're then reinforcing it. Hey uh Ben, I saw you got better today. I saw you did this really well today. Because you then want them leaving the place going, geez, someone noticed me. So then, and then so it's about having influence. How do you have influence um over their direction? And how can you drive them along um in their journey around both preparation and as well as their performance? But the interest most intriguing part around that, what we're talking about, is having the high-level conversations with your high-level leaders around accountability. Teaching or assisting players to learn how to make each other accountable is a really is a really uh slow process, I think. And it takes time. I think it can take years. Not a lot of people are natural at calling out their own mates, I don't think. Um, not in a good way, anyway. How can they have an influence over someone in a positive way and have it really impactful? Um, is really can be it needs to be a really structured conversation.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I guess that's a societal thing, is in general, we in society don't call people out all the time. Um actually actually in saying that, I yesterday I saw a guy drop a piece of rubbish and the guy behind him raked up about it. Oi, buddy, come pick it up. And and even that, which he was right to do, he did a good job. I was like, fair play, man. But he had to like just saying that is like quite a bold statement, isn't it? You don't hear that too often. But that's kind of that accountability piece. He's that's a bigger piece, but yeah, not everyone has that level of bravery, essentially, to to pull someone up on a standard being slipped. Um, so to teach it, gee, that's an art, isn't it, as a coach, to teach leaders that those skill sets?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it is, it is, and uh certainly your leaders, but uh as much also teaching some of your other players to follow. So the the teaching part around accountability is important, but it's also the following part that's important because ultimately we're all here to serve. We all serve someone along the way. So understanding that servant part is really important and how you follow you and is as important as as a leader making us accountable, um, I think. And that's you know, sometimes it happens naturally, sometimes you you can it happens organically, but sometimes you've got to manufacture it too. Um, and understanding, and you know, Jonathan Fisher and I talk a lot about this at times um in our group, is how can we maybe add a stressor or add a stress point throughout any might be in a session, might be in a meeting, how can we add a stress that's actually going to get a reaction for the environment that might change behaviors? Because if you just stay consistent, people get used to that. But then if you add a stressor and a really purposeful one to get a reaction, um you'll you'll change there's sometimes you'll change people's or you'll see the environment change.
SPEAKER_00:I heard a good one. Just you got me thinking about an example. I remember Conrad Smith telling me that uh one training Wayne Smith was into him as a coach, just into him the whole time. Just he'd say, No, offside and march him ten, and he'd rack up and say, What are you talking about? And and he goes, back chat, another march him, another 10 in the drill. And all training is just getting into him with these ridiculous calls, and he lost it. He was threw his toys and had all that. And then at the end of the training, Wayne gave him an envelope, and in it, he opened it up and just said, My job on this training is to get underneath Conrad's skin to show to him how um his you know competitiveness can be his biggest downfall. And he was like, Oh wow, this was a deliberate thing by a coach to stir me up. And I thought that was a a cool example of of that sort of thing, just deliberate sort of ruffling feathers to to create something.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely. We've had a few moments like that over the last couple of years. Um, Harry Wilson and Fraser McRae are always fun ones to get into when you're uh when you're refereeing something within training. And again, super competitive guys and highly intelligent, right? But um, you know, they're incredible, they're a lot smarter than I am. So they're uh, you know, when you might be falsifying a rule or a scenario within training and they know that you're wrong and they've just got to deal with it. It's uh it's certainly early on, anyway. It was good fun. They're good now, they know what's going on now, hence probably wallaby captains, I guess.
SPEAKER_00:But uh they're doing well. I love it, mate. Mate, I you talked about some f fascinating stuff just then, and I think that phrase that you said, the most important part of a coach's job, or one of the most important parts of a coach's job, is just talking to the playing group. Now that that sounds kind of obvious, right? But it's actually something which I reckon is not done enough. I think a lot of coaches get so in the zone of what you've got to do, like the actual drills and stuff you're setting up, putting spending more time putting cones out and getting everything ready than actually talking to the people that you're gonna be influencing. And um you talked about small uh interventions create influence. And it's those small little bits, isn't it? Like just just a conversation sometimes can just unlock so much. It's so much of the art of this thing, isn't it? Have you got have you any good experiences where a a a small interaction, a small talk to a group has unlocked something heaps bigger for yourself?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, um, actually in Japan is a really good one. And just on that, Ben, like I think um one of my processes that I do every day, and like I'm not saying you have to get to work early or you know, work late or anything like that. That's not, yeah, it's about quality of work. That's important. Yeah, but I make sure that by the time all the players arrive to the facility, the majority of the time, all my work is actually done. All presentations, everything is all ready to go so that you can actually spend time with the playing group. I think that for me is so important in what I do each day because if I'm just sitting up at my computer, like the players don't want to come and talk to you. No, they they think they're gonna interrupt you or you're gonna be busy. Like your job is to try and influence them and make them better. I can't do that sitting in front of a computer. Like that stuff can happen else, you know, at other times. And even if it doesn't happen and you don't have it ready, that's okay too. It's okay that it may be not ready, right? Like just go into the meeting and talk to, hey boys, this is what I was going to present. Um, what do you reckon? Do you know what I mean? Like just do it differently, right? Like doesn't have to always be PowerPoints, and don't get me wrong, there's an element of that being great and then that having you know a really good effect as well. But sometimes, hey boys, this is uh boys, I haven't had time because I was just chatting with um John O and she's we had a really good chat, and this has taken us, we were just chatting about the line out, boys, and we're thinking about this. What do you think? You know what I mean? Like, and that that that's the the um an example I was going to give you. One of the one of the great things in Japan um uh around that experience was a conversation I'd had with um Colby Fenger. Colby Feinger um is now up at Cuton, and again, one of the great Australian players, uh Rebel, Brumby's Rebels. Um never played for the Wallabies, but you know, certainly incredible seven in his own right behind a good number of good players. Um Colby, up in Japan, as you know, like players that a lot of the professional foreign players will train early in the day and then the company players will come in the afternoon and then we all train together. So Colby was there in during the day and he's like, Dana, I really want to have um I I really want to show the Japanese boys something, but I but I don't I can't speak Japanese. I said, Colby, um you can demonstrate it though, really well. And he's like, Oh yeah, but I won't be able to get my message across. Well, why don't why don't we do this? Why don't you go and do the activity, you you show it, speak in English, half of them will understand anyway, and then if we can't haven't got a message across, then I can then translate it. Or we get the translator to translate it and we'll and we'll get from there. Colby then basically went away and he wrote all this stuff down. It was, you know, he was going through like almost like a session plan. But ultimately then he came up and he wanted Zana, can I can I present it to you first? I said, no, no, I I don't need to see it, I know what you're doing. I know what you're doing, you just told me. No, no, I need to present, I need to practice. Well, no, no, mate, like you'll be good, you got this. Believe me. Anyway, he gets out on the field and he absolutely nails this demonstration. Half the boy, he ends up speaking Japanese, like half Japanese, bro, and the boys totally got what he was talking about, and just then led this, you know, led him to now be a great leader within a month of a guy who didn't speak the language, obviously already had the respect as a player, but the fact that they had seen him go through all this preparation to be a better uh to try and get his message cross, mate, just you know, took him to the next level as a leader.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's awesome, mate. Yeah, it is it is quite cool, isn't it? That um the the thinking process that Japan gives you, isn't it? You actually it the well, this is probably one of those things you talk about. It creates that little bit of stress in you because you can't just be sloppy and just stay. You actually have to go, wow, how am I gonna get this across? It's a great it's it's a beautiful place to learn coaching because you have to think about like gee, they're not gonna understand me. How am I gonna get it across? And if and and you have to just sort of roll, you don't know, you just have to go with it, right? And it's what a coaching process.
SPEAKER_01:Definitely. I think the the one thing I've learned from them, and I still use this uh to this day, is the systematic style of learning and the way they do things. So systematic calling systems to um because you've got people that don't speak the language, you've got um, you know, uh English speaking players that don't understand. It has to be so simple. And I I just and this is this would be the greatest thing that I've you know from Les to like Les will always attest, oh you know, I'm just a I'm just a rugby league player, Zano. I've got no idea about rugby. Here's a guy that's coached for you know 20 odd years, coached internationally for 14 years. Yeah, I think you get the game, mate. But oh no, I'm just a rugby league player, Zono, we've just got to make it really simple. And he's he's right, because the game is so simple. It's a game of contest, it's a game of collision, um, you know, it's yeah, essentially the four principles, right? Win the ball, you know, use it, support it, and then you know, stop it, right? You've got to, you know, like it really is just those four principles. If we think about it, if you just make it as simple as that. I that was one thing I've taken away from from Japan was how simple to get your message across and make things systematic so it's easy to learn.
SPEAKER_00:Yep. Well, certainly you'd probably appreciate the sending your kids to Japanese school, just the way they learn like math, for example, is a brilliant example of a good system and just repeating a good system. Uh your kids pick up maths incredibly quick. So quick. What would you bring back, mate? Like if from Australia, from a cultural perspective, from from your travels, what are what are some of the big rocks? One or two that you just go in Japan, Italy, wherever that you go. This was a good big cultural rock that I think all teams should should be aware of.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think um probably the number one for me is actually my time with Samoa and Tonga. Um, there's a greater purpose um than the individual when you work with andor play for those two teams. I've never it's it's simply two of the greatest experiences I've ever had in my life is working with those and coaching them and working with those players. They they are selfless to a man. So there is a greater purpose as to why they are playing the game. You know, um Ben Talmafuna for me um I've I've never met a greater b a greater human. Just the way in which he talks about playing for the Kingdom of Tonga, the way he talks about playing for his family. Um, you know, you know, Tussi Tisi, you know, current head coach of the Manu in Samoa, he was a player when I was coaching Samoa, talks about how um important it is to play for his village and play for the people back home and his family. I I never sensed how important and uh that was about having a purpose um until I coached both those teams. So for me, I think that's the number one thing. Having a purpose and have a collective purpose on why you are doing what you are doing as a team. I think that's d easily the number one. The definitely probably the big thing um I probably took away from Japan would be the work ethic. So I feel like you have to work hard. There's no doubt you can have a purpose, but ultimately you have to work hard. And then two, uh three, sorry, from Italy, the passion. Oh mate, like just like it's a romantic game, right? Like the passion with which the um, you know, they play the game, the way they see the game, the way they support it, um, is second to none. So definitely the passion from from Italy, the work ethic from Japan and and the pro some of the processes, but then having a purpose for me would be from the two Pacific Island nations, and um probably that that would win out overall, having a purpose.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, man. Isn't it a isn't it powerful? Like just it's the same game, like it's the same game, but the X's and O's, the catch parts, it's all the same, but it's that feeling and that thing behind it, right, which just create makes it something completely different. You just go, wow, look at the passion, look at the work ethic, look at the purpose. Um, that's the special thing about this cultural stuff, isn't it? That it just changes what is inherently the same thing over and over to something different, right? Something really, really unique for the people that are doing it in that context.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely, and I think that's the great thing about um, you know, what we're talking about here with culture is that um it's unique to every environment. And so not one is either better or the uh better than the other either. That's the great thing about it. Um, not one's better than the other. It's just different. Yeah. Um, and that and that's great, right? Like, you know, like it's uh and and that's why I love working with different teams all the time. And you know, even in this role, I'll be lucky enough to go away with Australia, um, and even just for two-week period in Europe, and even that in itself was you know, having to create a culture within that group of bringing guys together for a different purpose. Some want to play wallabies, some first time up in you know, Australian colours, Australia, you know, coaching the AUNZ team, like watching, you know, Simon Cron talk about, you know, the Anzac spirit, and you know, we're talking about what that is, what that's about and that purpose. And, you know, just oh mate, like everyone has a different motivation. Every person in the team has a different motivation, but it's our job to is to understand it and assess it and help them with that. And yeah, it's awesome, mate. It's it's simply the you know, you come back to you know, why did I want to be a profession coach at 23 and at 20 or whatever? And that's why. Because I love being a part of teams. I love and it I don't care what role I do because I know my like it doesn't matter what my role is, I just want to be a part of a team. It doesn't matter because you just fit in. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And just quickly, do you think that all these worldly experiences have just grown you through the roof as a coach rather than if you'd stayed in one place and worked your way up a system app wherever? Do you reckon you're a vastly different and better coach because of this worldly experience?
SPEAKER_01:I think I am. I think certainly think I am. I don't know if it's the only answer. Clearly it's not, because there's been a lot of um, you know, like I look at Lockie McCaffrey now, who um I coached in my last year, and he's now coaching at the Waratars. Um, and I look at Lockie and go, um, wow, he's he's really developing as a great coach. I look at some guy, you know, I look at Tarmany Ellison who, you know, Tarms are with us at the Rebels. Now he, you know, then he was at the Crusaders and now he's at the All Blacks, and what a fantastic role he's doing, right? Like, I don't know if it's a one size fits all, but to answer your question, for me, definitely, yes. Um, I have loved every single moment of it, and I'm loving it. Still loving it, and just want to keep doing it for the rest of my life, mate.
SPEAKER_00:Mate, well, if the way you're tracking, mate, you'll be coaching the they'll have a world team by then, the Harlem rugby team, um, and you'll be head coach of that bad boy, mate. Now, Zayn, it is it is time, mate. This mate is so amazing how quickly these just whack on by at this hour. So I'd like to just finish up, mate, with just a question which um I like to ask at the end because it draws an interesting response, and it's this do you have any belief around culture that you that you reckon your contemporaries would disagree with? Yeah, it's a great question.
SPEAKER_01:It is a really good question. I think um people would disagree with the fact that, and we've actually just done this recently, so I'm not sure that you it is the number one thing to recruit people on. I reckon they disagree with that. Because I don't know if that is it. I think there's far more that goes into recruiting a player or bringing someone or selecting a player than culture and then being a good person because you still have to be good enough and you still have to be able you you still have to be able to have the capability to be able to achieve and perform. So just recruiting a good person, I I think people would disagree with that. I think there'd be a lot of people a lot of coaches that would disagree. I think it is as important to be capable. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So so the old adage that yeah, you're gonna say it's a fifty-fifty split, what's your split on it?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think it's I think it's a fifty-fifty split. Because the plan has got to be good. Um or they need to have potential that you think you can grow them. Um and that they will be good to be able to fulfill the role you need. Um because because on so many occasions when we've recruited a player, so many people have told me that oh no, he's a bad exano, don't don't don't touch him, don't touch him. And we've signed the person and the person's been an absolute legend within the group. So I I think it's as important to back yourself to also be able to get them to understand that they will fit into your to your environment and then they will have a value add. They're not necessarily fitting into your environment, they're adding to your environment. So I I think you have to be really careful just to recruit on culture. And I feel like people are gonna shoot me down for that. I don't think they'll like that.
SPEAKER_00:Well, you tell us who those players are, Zayn, and we'll keep an eye on them over the over the coming season, see how you've gone. No, mate, I think it's a really valid point, and I I like the whole context of culture is it's got to be individualized and it's got to be context, and that's exactly the same with recruitment. You can't just put everything in the same box and say we're recruiting just for that or exclusively for that, or not giving that other thing credence. It's it's it's a bit of everything. And I I I love that phrase that you said they're there to potentially add value, and you're trying to add value to them too, right? That's part of a coach's thing. You're adding value and your nuances and niches and skill as a coach do that different to other coaches, and may you just bring out through those small interactions and interventions the best out of someone else. Zayn, what a pleasure to have you on the Coaching Culture podcast. If I may, I'd just like to sort of wrap up my three takeaways from this awesome conversation. Number one is I just love the phrase that he kept repeating is just be normal. And whilst it sounds kind of silly and and and a little bit obvious, but it's something you don't always do. Being normal is not apologizing for who you are. And I think Les Kiss said to you particularly don't apologize for intensity, you be you. And if you're doing that, if you're being normal, then that is a long way to being an authentic coach and authentically you, so stick to it. Number two, I love this coaching mythology phrasing that you're currently using about care, connection, and challenge. And I love that we just discussed around that's a sequential order. The care comes first, and if you care enough, you can to connect, then it gives you the ability to actually be able to challenge people. A lot of times in coaching, the challenge bit often comes first. We think we have to challenge, and it comes before those other two, which never leads to a good outcome. So I love the sequence you have there. Care to connect to challenge. I think it's absolutely lovely. Number three is this one, which is before you start, have the work done. I loved it, and you weren't encouraging work ridiculous hours through the nights. You were just stating if you've got the tools down, if you've closed the laptop, when people come in, you can actually engage, you can physically engage. And you said the most important part of a coach's job is actually to talk to your playing group, and the influence you have over them is massive. Small interventions lead to massive influence, and I think it's important as coaches, we don't get bogged down of always having to have your cone set up or the right jewels or the right flow or the right presentation all the time. Sometimes just being there to talk to your group is massive, and that often starts by actually having all your stuff you have to do done early. Zane Hilton, what an absolute pleasure to have you on the Coaching Cultural today. Awesome, mate. Been great. Thanks so much.