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Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring is your weekly deep-dive into the often-overlooked “softer skills” of coaching—cultural innovation, communication, empathy, leadership, dealing with stress, and motivation. Each episode features candid conversations with the world’s top international rugby coaches, who share the personal stories and intangible insights behind their winning cultures, and too their biggest failures and learnings from them. This is where X’s and O’s meet heart and soul, empowering coaches at every level to foster authentic connections, inspire their teams, and elevate their own coaching craft. If you believe that the real gold in rugby lies beyond the scoreboard, Coaching Culture is the podcast for you.
Coaching Culture with Ben Herring
Andrew Hore: Hard Conversations Keep Standards High
What if the toughest conversations are actually acts of care? We sit down with Andrew Hore—veteran leader across the Crusaders, Ospreys, New Zealand Rugby, and the Blues—to unpack how culture really works when the stakes are high and the calendars are relentless. Andrew doesn’t sell slogans; he shares systems. From the iceberg of unwritten behaviors to the moments a leader must step back and let the team “color in” the framework, he shows why ownership beats oversight and why challenge, delivered well, strengthens trust.
We trace turning points across teams and regions: the Crusaders’ academy foundations, Ospreys stabilizing finances while protecting identity, and the Blues aligning a multicultural city with the “many waka, one direction” idea. Andrew explains why building from the bottom up—competition structures, facilities, coaching development—creates sustainable high performance, and why over-centralizing at the top can hollow out the game beneath it. He’s blunt about tradeoffs: you can’t fund everything at once, so pick clear pillars, invest deeply, and accept that some will disagree.
If you hire leaders, you’ll love his take: forget the “culture coach.” Look for character, a real technical specialty that earns credibility, and a context fit for the politics and pressures of your environment. Then support that head coach with a GM who shields, staffs, and thinks in horizons. Along the way, Andrew shares practical habits: set entry and exit rituals so work doesn’t invade home, build rooms where honest debate is safe, and start negotiations on the same side of the table by mapping shared problems first. Care is not softness—it’s precise feedback, consistent standards, and visible follow-through.
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Don't think just because someone's challenging you that they're not coming from they've they're probably coming from a place of care too. That ingrained way of being, unless they explore it, they don't understand that that could actually be limiting the number of type of personality that's really driven, that can have a detrimental impact if you don't put that time in. I'm sort of definitely known as a disruptor, and I've probably managed that all the times. Some people think I'm the biggest break in the world, but you just gotta make a choice. Every decision you make is a balance.
SPEAKER_00:Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I've been herring, I've been loving this side of the game for bloody ages. So let's get to Andrew Hoare. Andrew has had a lifetime in the administration side of the game from performance director, high performance, CEO, you name it, he's done it. His rugby management career has spent almost three decades, including 10-year-olds at Canterbury and the Crusaders, Ospreys in Wales, New Zealand rugby unions, Welsh rugby unions, waritars in Australia, and most recently, an incredibly successful tenure as CEO of the Blues and arguably the best they've had in the last 25 years. It takes a special kind of leader to lead successfully at the very top of high performance rugby. So it's an absolute pleasure, Andrew, to have you on the Coaching Culture podcast today.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, thanks, Benny. I appreciate that, mate. As one that got away from my early days. Um, it's an absolute pleasure to see what you've achieved and where you've gone. It just shows you it doesn't have to all be the crusaders for you to be successful, does it? You can head south and make something of yourself.
SPEAKER_00:Well, mate, there's the as as good as the crusta crusaders is, there's always another pathway, right?
SPEAKER_04:That's right. That's exactly right. The kids need to know that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, exactly right. It's as good as it is, there's there's always options, and you can make your own path, right?
SPEAKER_04:Correct. 100%.
SPEAKER_00:Love it, mate.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, be your own drum.
SPEAKER_00:Right, Hori. First question for you is how do you define culture?
SPEAKER_04:It's a way of being, a way of doing. It's really funny. I just had an instance in my new career where I was sitting with these two young Tongan chaps, um, 22, 23, and we're talking about their career path, where they wanted to go, what they wanted to achieve, having a cup of coffee and or actually a subway sandwich, and just having a chat. And they talked about there's um the differences between the different parts of the company and the ones that they appreciate. This was unprovoked. It was not, and they talked about uh there's a Fijian gentleman who's 60, just over 60, right? He still fills the flower aisle. And there's another gentleman called Ioni, who's a Somali gentleman, also over 60, and they said, We want to be, we we we wanna, we want, we want to be like them. We've seen other parts of business where they do this, but this is what we like about these guys. These those those two guys are exemplary. They've been in this company now for 20 years, and it's what they do and the impression that they're having on those young kids right now, and it's because of their behaviors and their habits, and it and and so straight away I was like, shit, that's gold dust. That that is culture, right? That's a way of being, a way of doing that's unwritten. It there's there's layers deep, as we know. There's there's there's the thinking you've got to be away, but there's an ingrained way of being, um, which is also a little bit sometimes people's weakness, because that ingrained way of being, unless they explore it, they don't understand that that could actually be limiting them in going forward. So um, as much as what I loved about it was these two guys saw the super the just under the iceberg, they saw what they needed what they wanted to be, but deep, deep down, because then I asked them, are you prepared then to drive that culture? If you got and that that that was there's a difference between I'll take direction from them and do, but I'll actually drive. So from where I'm sitting now as a manager, I'm thinking, right, how do I unpeel that little that part of the iceberg between what they're saying to what they're applauding to them man driving? Does that make sense? And so culture to me is that whole part of um and uh I think sometimes as leaders we think we've got to be directing, driving that, and I and and coming from a high performance sports science perspective, my greatest um learning was when what what what conditioning coaches and high performance people sometimes or particularly conditioning coaches are good at is setting a direction and driving to get there. When moving into other parts of leadership is and it wasn't actually it was my last couple of meetings at the blues, I felt really comfortable with this, is actually you've got to set that framework and let your people colour it in. Now now now you can still influence that by having the meetings beforehand, etc. And having those debates with say some key influences, but ultimately too, if you've picked right and you've got some resemblance of where you want to go within that, people underneath are generally bloody good at tying into a cause and a purpose, and and if you allow them to define what that looks like, um, and it wasn't, I don't think it was I th I think the last few meetings I wanted to leave for the next CEO a really good pack about what my people were feeling, seeing what was going to drive them. Um that uh with the blues people connection excellence really resignated, but we had to needle down what that really meant, and I think we got there, and it was really I walked away, I was like, Jesus, I don't know if I want to give this away now because these these guys are like like head of Cheryl Trust wrote this beautiful piece about who we were and what we stood for, and I was like, Jesus, it was it was and and then everyone you could see though feeding off of that, and then Byrne came in with a couple of pieces, and the whole thing, whole thing uh took off. So, so to me that culture is that way of being, and um, and really um it doesn't matter where you go, it's peeling those layers of the orange off to get really deep, that's really gonna make it make it hum. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I love it, mate. I I actually love the reference you played, uh said about it's an ingrained way of being, but sometimes that can be a weakness. Like that's not always said about just because it's people just go and do it and consistently do it, doesn't always make it a strength, does it, for a culture?
SPEAKER_04:No, and also it changes. Does that make sense? So your the external world can actually impact that that your culture, which maybe have been strong, and I've got to do some more reading on this, but what what's drilled down and worked for you in the past, if you're not careful, that can evolve. Um and I'm sort of definitely known as a disruptor, and I probably manage that poorly at times, but that evolution comes from often a uh or that drive comes from a place of care because you're looking at where it's going and you want to take your organization there. Now that's great if you know you look at those business of that change management with whether it be Ospreys or broke or Waratars or Blues or whatever, that has a that that's great, but it does you can get tarnished as well, but but but what you what you're you're seeing is you're trying to actually say, hey, if we keep doing this, we we're just not gonna succeed. So that evolution is really something that a leader, particularly the longer they're there, needs to be really conscious of. And initially you might have to give really strong you might have to give a sense of purpose and direction initially that captures some, but over time I think you've got to really step back and allow those other people, as in the organisation, to really step up and drive what that looks like. And you get to pick who's in the locker, right? You you you get to sleep that to a degree, but don't think just because someone's challenging you that they're not coming from they're they're probably coming from a place of care too. So how do you set a framework that they get a voice to because you can fool yourself, and I've done it, you can fool yourself that you're going there and you have people around there that may be fair for their jobs or um you know, maybe not telling you what you that want to hear, and that that was a really interesting thing about Wales was um and and I'm not just picking Wales because I think it's evident in a lot of cultures, but um if you if you look at I love the Welsh, I uh you know, we we're we're near on 16 years there back and forth. So I don't say this with uh this is not a but if you look at their history, often they were small villages where men went underground all day with somebody, you know, their neighbours, etc., and then come up and played rugby and socialized, right? So the ability sometimes to express themselves and their feelings and how they're feeling um is completely different to maybe another culture, say Australia, right? And it's how you work out, how you tap into that so they open up and tell you how they're feeling or what signals or what people can help you find that information so you can create an environment where you grow that. So every culture I've worked in starts from a different a different start point on where they're where they're starting from in that type of thing.
SPEAKER_00:Do you have to get down in the in the mind with them?
SPEAKER_04:I I think I think you do. I think you do, and I think um yeah, I think you do. Um and enjoy that experience because um the people, they have the same issues as often you do at home or same vulnerabilities. Um and I don't think I've always because I'm a type A personality that's really driven, taking time to um put the bedrock in place around care and support. Um and that um can have a detrimental impact if you don't put that time, and that doesn't mean you have to be soft, that just means you might have to point out a couple of observations in a different way to say how you would uh in another environment or in another role, um, and adapting your role is is really important. Um, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I love it how the this is this is a beautifully cared statement you said. Um you have to point out observations in a different way. That's a I can imagine what that would have been in the first place. But mate, a couple of things that you said there, and I'd love to just get a little bit deeper on it. You said you're a disruptor, and you said you're a type A, and um it hasn't always been coming from a place uh with a bedrock of care, mate. What is a disruptor? And not many people are disruptors, and what does it mean for you? Because that's a that's a cool statement.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, well, we did a obviously a lot of work around who we were in a number of environments, and what I've learned is sometimes um the what we call is a purple dot, you you might see or you might think you see a vision of a way thinks something's going, and you get fixated on it, but you may not be good at the detail. So as much as I'll talk about now um some of the characteristics that I have as a leader does doesn't make me good in some other areas. So detail's not particularly uh great, but um vision and and sort of seeing some dots um pointing out as um and and where and experience and the some of the facts behind that to to back that up, you you can you can be good at um and identify that those things are are indicators. So so because of that, sometimes um often a purple dot will too will be a person that can think outside the box on or to get to a point, right? And and sometimes people don't want to get outside that box, and so the way that you then um encourage them to change and adapt can be the making or the breaking of you to get to that point. And um I've definitely had a lot of breaks, and sometimes you have some really good breakthroughs that take you there as well.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Um and sometimes you've got to be careful as that type A is that you're not in a hurry that you don't just slow down and enjoy that ride.
SPEAKER_00:What's what's been some of the big breakthroughs or the biggest breakthrough you've had?
SPEAKER_04:Um I think uh the every environment's had some wins. Do you know what I mean? Like I think um the fact getting a commission through a super rugby was a big win. I don't know. It'll be interesting to see what happens here and where it goes. Um I think um the adaptation of the Ospreys to embrace who they were as a region and stop potentially trying to be something they weren't was a big part um around our identity and who we were. I thought that was a really breakthrough moment that I really enjoyed. Um I think being part of a team that built um helped build the academy structure and the crusaders. Um well those uh I'd say there was some leaders that were leader influencing up at the time. There was still breakthrough moments of what we needed at the ground to create that. So there's little parts that you look back and go, shit, that was that was bloody good now that I've stepped away and actually had a chance to breathe about it. Um and so they're little stepping stones that may not be appreciated for a long, long time, but you know you've been a part of a broader team that's actually helped create that, which is really special.
SPEAKER_00:How did just talking about that, um you you were part of that first rugby academy in New Zealand, which was like the Crusaders Academy type system, which has gone on to be just world renowned as you know, how like it's almost the prototype of how you run a good academy, right? What was some of the stuff that you put that you helped put in early on, which really made a last mate, and it's consistently just sensational, isn't it? What what what are what would you say are the big things which any academy should mirror in the early days?
SPEAKER_04:I think there was uh when I look back now, um I felt the leadership I think I think you you gotta put it in context, and those everything's gotta be put into context. So if you remember, there was a number of key moments I remember in that. If you remember, Canterbury just about got kicked out of the provincial uh Division I MPC, um, so they're at their lowest ebb. Um, and in steps, Steve Chew, or Steve Tanshin, Wayne Smith, uh Robbie Deans, etc. And collectively, you are part of a collective, no one individual can do that. And I was pretty much a baby at that time, not understanding. So, what was my role within that? My role was to be passionate at the Colfax um about that. You had largely Steve who was driving a vision that, okay, yep, you had people who were driving the here and now um to build a team that was the shop front window for the organization, which was Canterbury at the time. We're talking about a period of time where, you know, I think we played in a semi-final against counties and had 35,000 people there. So, so getting that window uh right actually enabled then the next phase, which was building this academy. And it started with very limited budget. Um, but what what the other thing that was happening behind the scenes was there's this whole vulnerability-based learning. There was a whole lot of experiments going on. Um Gilbert Anoku was involved in the organization, and and um, and there was some pretty we we made I think we made mistakes in some of the brutal conversations, but we also made a lot of success. Um and there was real clarity around what your role was and where you sat within that, which I thought was really, really good. But it came from teamwork, um, it came from a place that we knew we had to change. So then, okay, what is it we want? So there was a really strong drive of purpose, um, and there was energy, you and a chemistry that just connected. Now, whether that's as as you get older, you learn that you can manipulate that can that chemistry um with the selection of your building of your teams. But um and and maybe that was happening, maybe it was but I knew I'm where I was, I knew we had a purpose and identity, we're at the lowest sort of ebb, and it was just in a a really exciting time to be uh involved and learning leadership with those people. And I think when I look back to I'm pleased I didn't stay in it forever or carrying that space because you only learn one leadership style in that. Like I'd carried probably into that role a way of behaving and being that came largely from my youth. Right? So it was a battler type mentality. That's what was needed, and there's a little bit of that in the disruptor piece that I've had to learn to adapt and still continue to to adapt. So those scratches, those marks that you get when you're a little person, understanding those biases and what that does to you and how that makes you react in certain circumstances. Um is a really uh well it's can be sometimes quite confronting and challenging but also um if you can acknowledge that extremely rewarding on then how you can work on yourself to to adapt and change. Um and so yeah that's um I I just felt that was a was a really special time because I think the organization was at its lowest ebb. We'd just come out of being last in the super rugby and and that that history will never be repeated.
SPEAKER_00:No well it's it it makes for a great story doesn't it like just the turnaround from you weren't just middle you were last and then to to turn around and make something that's lasted so long and so well with so much success along the way is just phenomenal.
SPEAKER_04:And and mate I I love that concept you talk about just understanding your own bias and you just said something a bit earlier but about that before you said you see or you think you see the way things should be and I just think that's an important observation to make as a leader isn't it just to know that just because you're seeing it a certain way you've got a lens you've got a a stance and a viewpoint from your own experience which isn't always the truth is it no and it's something uh I definitely learnt I think um Darrell Gibson was really good at this um I felt seek to understand um and again if you're a driven type of character uh you have these biases sometimes but you get success through a certain way of behaving that can it's really challenging to to change and have that so asking questions taking the time to ask questions um exploring but also creating an environment where people feel they can be honest in that response um it can take I think it can take a bit of time to get used to my leadership as a team um and once they know and oh shit if you actually give it to Hori back you get into a discussion you're away and you've almost got to train people that that that yep and but if you can um I wouldn't say manipulate's too strong a word but with then he'll he'll he'll become a great ally for you and that kind of stuff.
SPEAKER_00:Are you quite uh are you quite a tough guy to like are you quite an intimidating sort of guy to chat to in those boardroom type settings do you have a bit of edge about you?
SPEAKER_04:Um I don't know you'd have to ask others on that um I've got the list here mate um I'll read them out no I look I um don't say I always get it right but I do feel that I do believe in throwing something on the table and it should be chewed over. And what I don't like is if that's not chewed over vigorously because I I think there's some big issues in all of the organisations I've stepped into where they've largely been on their bones of they need to get to the nub of the problem right and that doesn't that is not always easy um to get to and I think um if I look back now and I if we go back to the previous part of discussion um I thought Steve J did one a really wonderful meeting once in the Copthorne Hotel where we did a strategy for Canterbury and the Crusaders moving forward and it was a great debate and I think embracing that environment but for some people that that that is not the way they roll and you can't drive that into people you've got to adapt your leadership to bring that out of the people and it's probably taking me time to learn that um and then it learning the art of adapting that style to enable them to bring their issues forward. You can sit there and say this is where I want to roll and this is what I want but they ain't comfortable with it. They ain't come up with anything all right have you had some have you had some examples of that any specific ones where you've gone I'll blind that number probably but that many I can't even think but you can't pick the best one pick the best one but you do need to I just all I can say is it it it does you you know as a leader when you walk away and then you delve into how a session went or something went that you'll find people that'll give you that little bit of gold dust to tell you when that happened right and um it's again it's that Daryl Gibson seek to understand um mentality that you know you take you take someone take something from everyone you meet along the road and that that's something I've definitely um taken from him and and actually when you get past yourself too and you understand that the fact they're saying it is probably because they actually want it to be great then you appreciate it more. It's when you get hurt by it and then you might adapt to change or embrace that conversation then and that's that that that takes a bit. Does it still does it still um when when you have those sort of robust discussions do you you're obviously 30 years in on this stuff you enjoy it you're part of it do you still get a little bit um do when someone says something does it sting still like you go and then you does it get you back up and is that still part of working I think so because you care right yeah because you because you you go into these roles any any role a lot of people you go in and you're doing it because you feel you're trying to do the right thing so straight away you're not coming necessarily from another perspective it's like you get passionate about rugby right because you love rugby so if you're doing what's right for the game but you're approaching it in the in in an incorrect manner then it still hurts when they that's that that's pointed out all right so um but you're coming from a place of care so of course you care and so it takes a um a little bit to unpack that and get a little bit of self-confidence to go right I've got to change adapt and role with this group and as your organisation grows too your role within that may adapt and the blues the classic case between we foul having a small group that redefined the purpose and identity with at the same time see there was the broader proposition of the business and then within that is the individual propositions of the teams and and parts of the business they want their own identity. Yeah you gotta divide it up yeah yeah you do I I I'm a great believer in this because particularly in rugby because you are often dealing with coaches who have a view and an identity right on where they want to take the team and so um without going into too much detail around the blues because I really improved with where we identified but our and and particularly in Auckland was really interesting or in the blues region our region has never been unified no right we had um northern Iwi battling with um Latifah Oraki we had yeah Hobson you know getting bashed up in the north coming south we had uh we've had Bastian point we've had you know what I mean we we now live in a city like Sydney um where we go back to our region and we largely stay there for the weekend and then we come back together again. So how do we bring that together? And and our view was actually if we can set a parameter and so that's not crusaders right that's that's that's not crusad on that's not any of that this was a blues way around people connections and excellence you also have the most multicultural city probably in the world now the next 15 to 30 years it's going to be you know largely Southeast Asian in a lot of ways it's it's changing it's evolving and so how do you encapsulate that and do it our way and our view was we're now within that too and this came out of a piece of work it was really interesting how it meshed together and it wasn't it was tough at the beginning but I don't know if you've ever seen um The Last Dance but where the GM is talking about broader aspects but the coach has a philosophy and actually if you watch it they're actually quite closely aligned but it almost seems slightly divided I think I was really lucky with Leon that he spoke he was doing a lot of work around that team identity and he'd done that he'd been there um a few months earlier quite a period of time earlier so he'd had he'd done some work which was really good and then we did some work around the business and we had to evolve and oscillate and try to bring the two parts together whereas when I was at the Crusaders it was largely team driven and then the organization took that on and then took that forward at the blues and then the Ospreys was largely the business sorted it and then the teams took it forward because different reasons and here we had two groups so we had to have some and we did it I remember at the Auckland Yacht Club and we had some uh there's four or five of us really robust discussions really robust and we came up with this concept of many Waka moving together so there need to be a a broad umbrella but then within that if the coaches took key parts of that story and drove that that we agreed upon they could do that in any way they want and I think our NIB blues did that r really really well they grabbed where we wanted to go as a region and they really drove that home within their own uh or team and I think to Verne in his own way to um someone said to me yeah but Vern never uses your language Vern didn't have to use my language because Verne was actions were actually driving what we wanted um in his own way and so um those those kind of little moments or those they all start from a different place but you may not walk into an organization where you can just set it down and move it forward you're all starting from a different different place and you've got to create an environment where you can have some good discussions to to work out how you're gonna move together for mutual benefit.
SPEAKER_00:Well I'd be right I remember hearing this that kind of statement like like when you're talking about say the crusaders it's very easy to sit in one like we'll call it a canoe for those that don't know a wa awaka is a canoe one one everyone's on the same same canoe one direction all in there. But when you're talking about the blues in such a multicultural city not everyone's gonna be on the one are they there's going to be five or six different ones but that's fine as long as you are still going in the same direction. So that's a big difference isn't it where you had to make that change multicultural place lots of different factors if you try cram everyone into this the same boat it's just gonna be a debacle right it's not going to work.
SPEAKER_04:And changes your ethos to from one of um driving in that direction to how do I support then that group to go in the same direction you know so our academy and development structure um then uh became about how do we resource such a big region and give them a little bit more autonomy right and stand back whereas if you look at other regions it's about oh we're gonna set the agenda we're gonna set the curriculum that that that wouldn't have worked um here and I'm a big believer that the top will only get to be the top if you get your systems and structures right below I'm still a big believer in that I think we've lost a bit of that in New Zealand rugby um that what makes the All Blacks is actually that massive and I'm really worried that we're gonna end up being and I can say this because I'm passionate about the Welsh as well but I I'm really worried that we're gonna end up being like the Welsh where it's become so team Wales focused what made Wales great was the love the live the living for the game the competition structures everything that was underneath it that fed there and I'm just worried that that team of black philosophy forgets that how do you grow what's underneath that'll give you what you want not and I've yes you know you see it and and a good example is actually France if you grow a great competition you grow great facilities you grow great coaches those people come up and carry you forward don't don't Scott Johnson once said to me um you know don't um innovation comes from the bottom to the top not from the top to the bottom right so how do you how do you inject that that you get that innovation that difference while also then being able to mould that into what you need at the top and so one of the fears I probably have for the game one of the reasons I felt I had to step away is the ethos around um that internationalism um and yet great competitions with well trained coaches when well resourced facilities and this is this is I think we've got a wonderful opportunity with the women's game if we can grow great facilities with great coaches with great competition structures the black friends will take care of itself you know yeah but our initial thought is straight oh we've got to get the black friends go.
SPEAKER_00:But at what cost everything else so this is a um yeah it's a um so that's where I sort of well you you could sort of say that applies across all like clubs uh anyone like schools like it's very easy to potentially just recruit in a whole lot of players for the top team and and that may win you a few seasons in a row a lot of club teams here do it they just you know go offshore buy a whole lot win a championship but it's not growing the stuff underneath is it the stuff which will actually keep keep it growing strong like the crusaders for so long.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah but also to remember that is a fine balance and where I've gone wrong sometimes is particularly in those coming out of those high performance years is feeling you've got to go down that line of performance development but you gotta in professional sport you've got to keep shot window strong too and I felt at the Ospreys we actually got that balance really well. The fact was um they were hemorrhaging nearing four and a half million pounds a year we had to cut that loss we had to go to I remember we got we won the championship with Tenny on the Sunday in Dublin and I got a phone call from the tax department in in England on the Monday and I had to go to London and and we had a what was it called a some bloody thing anyway they're gonna shut us down and um we went to London we got refinanced uh cost us£4800 a month from Close Brothers Bank remember that um knocked on every door we could find and we had to cut costs accordingly but we had to cut costs to make sure that we still kept an Osprey's brand still remained in quarterfinal Europe while trying to build an identity while trying to build a talent flow so yeah settled with that and it's really hard you're gonna every decision you make every decision you make is a balance and do you see if you don't have an environment where you can debate with your board your major shareholders in that yeah um but be left to make a decision then um you you you get isolated and you get your throat cut. Yeah luckily in that environment um I mean we had some board issues as well but by and large you've you've got to have that um chair CEO coach in particular um on song and the chair through those key stakeholders on the board the coach uh the sorry the CEO and those key stakeholders around the commercial and the the the staff and then your coach and so that becomes and and it's the same for any organization is how do you get that flow how do you set that direction um how do you take them on that journey how do you and then support how do you how do you choose your coaches how do you choose your head coach when you come to select a coach uh it's different for every situation um I feel that this was really interesting something um I definitely um I look um I look for character I definitely look for character in the first um instance um and some I'll give you some generic uh attributes first and then we can sort of drill down I think you need to look at historically what's work well for your organization and I learned that from I thought um Josh Blackie did a really good job here for the blues he analyzed um because each environment is different and the people are different so our our environment of the blues is very different to other environments and what they our ethnic makeup is different, their experiences as kids are different, the Welsh are different the Aussies are different, right? And so sometimes um you make a hard decision to to take a coach but sometimes you make equally as hard decision not to take a coach I'll give you a classic example. Would have been really easy to take Steve Tandy, I reckon, of the Waratars. But politically he would have got eaten up.
SPEAKER_03:Why is that? Because it's a cesspit over there with regard to politics.
SPEAKER_04:Right? And and and so you need, and it wasn't what they're looking for. So you've got to identify, but yeah, is he full of the right character? Um does he have a specialization in a certain technical area? See, this is a thing that I'm really. Where did this culture coach bullshit come from? Like, seriously. A coach and the coaches or a CEO and the senior management team drive a culture. But they also have a specialization. You don't specialise in that, right? We've got that completely wrong. Culture coach, I've never heard anything in my life. Like, that's a sign that we're not allowing other people to grow it.
SPEAKER_00:And so um wait on, was there was there a specialist coach in that environment for that?
SPEAKER_04:No, I think you're key, well, your head coach has always got to drive the cultural aspect within your team.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Right? Yeah. Your CEO still has to have set framework and drive these things. But ultimately, if a good leader will then allow the others to carry that for you and drive that and argue back with you when it's not right, right? That's the thing. It's not high, you know, you don't stand there and you you you you you hopefully throw something at you, you debate it, you take it out, right? We're gonna go at the door. And so what I look for is well, not not me personally, but when we sat down and and look at the criteria, there's some gen generic things. What does history tell us about what we need in this environment? What is the big mix of a management team right now? Who are we keeping, who are we not keeping? What do we need within that? Um there's the where the organization is in its evolution, because sometimes you just need someone that's going to give it a kick in the gut. This is where the Michael Checkers and that of the world have a have a place because sometimes they might get that started. Right. He may not agree with this, I don't know, but there might be someone else that takes it further. I you know, I look at that Lens the model and and and and Joe and what happened. It was a it was a it was a lovely evolution for them, right? So I think you've got to look at that. You've got to look at, I always think a coach has got to have a technical proficiency in something, something they own. Something um and I think defense is a great one because it's often systematic. Um, that doesn't necessarily mean that I would take someone in that, but I think they've got to they've got to own something. And often they've got to have the ability to see a bigger picture and drive a wider agenda for the club. So there's some generic things, and then within that comes your club specific pieces um about who you are and what you need uh in that point in time and what they've got around them and and that kind of thing. Yeah, and what your future looks like. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Would you say that technical piece, just for a lot of coaches, listen to this, is it better to be to have a hard specialization than just to be a g generalist over a few things, just to have a niche where that's you?
SPEAKER_04:I think that can help to have a niche, but of course you need to be across. Yeah. Which is where I think you know, I was there in uh in high performance when Graham was running the blacks. Um I felt you know he took that uh defence portfolio, which means he can do his work, but then still have time to question um and and and examine the other coaches what they're looking at. I see that I think with Vern on his Sundays, he's extremely disciplined, you know. Um I don't think I'm speaking out of school here, very disciplined after a game around his behaviours, getting to bed, getting to sleep, getting up the next day, doing his homework, being ready for when the coaches come in. Right? Um that kind of thing. Um so that that enables them to be a specialist in their area, but a questioner and a developer and a support person for the other people in their in their environment. It's a very selfless role being a good head coach. Um because you've got to give the so many people. It's I I I really uh have come to admire um good coaches and that that week long turnaround, uh or head coaches rather, that week long turnaround you've got you've often got 50 people, 50 players plus maybe 15 to 20 support staff. Uh you've got to do your own stuff as well. It's you know yourself, Ben, it's it's it's it's intense. Um and uh and on top of it, you you've got to be looking for innovation, etc. So those kind of things. So how do how do you support that person with the right talent IB person, the right development person, so they're not having to think about that, um is really, really important. Um and that's where I really feel where the good GMs of this world um will fill that slack, that void, um and and ensure that they not they not that they do it, because I don't think that's the GM of Rugby's role either, but they put the right people in place um and create the right environment where um the head coach knows they've got our back. But and sometimes so a decision has to be made that may not be right for them here and now. I mean, some coaches would throw a checkbook and get the best team right here and now, right? Now, for some organizations, that's what they need. Yeah, you know, like I look at Newcastle right now, you could argue that's what they need. And then you build your academy. For some organisations, it's if we get the development and that like a Linster or that if we get that right, it's a waiting, it's not a it's not a and or it's a it's a waiting to a degree.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's on the spectrum somewhere, isn't it? Where you sit.
SPEAKER_04:Where you sit, and you can't be too wishy-washy either, and that's where the debate comes, because it's got to be a hard, you know, it's like um I'll give you another example as a CEO. Um, with the blues, it was really clear we raised our commercial revenue by 65% over my tenure there through appointment of good people because we identified really early we did not have the resource of people nor the commercial revenue to become what we've become, wanted to become, wanted to become.
SPEAKER_03:So quite we haven't made it yet. But so we had to start there. Now, what did that mean?
SPEAKER_04:Well, that meant that actually you can't be start front, say, with dancing girls and fire trackers and everything on match day. You can't. The first thing you had to start with was a dream, a hope, and aspiration to raise the base income. And you gotta get your team performing. And then luckily we had, and then we needed a connection through to the community. So that was our top three. Some things then had to fall away, um, around the marketing and aspects, etc., while we focused on that. But if we tried to do too much too early, and and within that too, the fifth pillar is is around people, and so some of those people sacrificed for the greater good of the organization their own development because resource had to be put into those areas, and this is a big flaw I see um in some sort that you with and because we're a sport that has multiple stakeholders in it, you you can't please everybody. And I know damn well that I've left and some people think I'm the biggest brick in the world, but you just gotta make a choice.
SPEAKER_00:How do you deal with that? How do you deal with that that reality that s there'll be people that are thinking that of you?
SPEAKER_04:How's it uh initially I think probably harsh. It's more your wife and miss missus that needs to put up with it, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00:Um depends how you come home, Andrew.
SPEAKER_04:Well, that's exactly right. Take a breath. And um I remember Steve Hansen saying to me, make sure you're off the phone before you go in the door.
SPEAKER_03:Yes. Right. And and and he's right. Um, because your whatever old does not give a shit.
SPEAKER_00:Yep. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Alright.
SPEAKER_00:Um And that's massive too, mate, isn't it? Not just for like your role and like CEO stuff, but for coaches too. Like, it's so easy to drag all your baggage and your weight from where you've just been to your home life, and there's no separation, is there? Like that would be a massive piece of advice to anyone that's uber passionate about the game is to make sure it stays a game and you leave it where it's supposed to be, which is out there on the field, not dragging it into your own four walls. Would you say that's a pretty that's very real, isn't it, for a lot of head coaches and CEOs in the industry?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I think so. And it all comes back um to you. You asked that question, like I just thought was it how do you deal with that? I think um probably early on poorly, because um it mounts and um your public perception or etc. or whatever drives you really, um you you you might be a born warrior, you might um etc. Um but I think as you grow and take get a skin and take some knocks, or you can rationalise that in your own mind and maybe even verbalize that in a better way, um, then um you learn that you're just not gonna change some people's perceptions of who you are and what you stand for. Um it's really interesting. I'm really interested to see how this McCullum piece will go. Um, because he's he's laid it out, right? He's laid out that's our blueprint, that's who we are. Um and uh but don't underestimate um leaders aren't not listening to to those things, and it's then how you uh teach yourself to deal with that. Um and the biggest thing I probably learned was getting my mental mind state in the right try to get it in the right place, because you don't always before I get out of the car to go into the office or into the home. You're going both ways.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:And and and I was poor at this.
SPEAKER_03:You think they want to see me busy working hard, bum bum. But actually they want to see a handshake and how they're gone.
SPEAKER_04:And it taken me a long time to realise that I think, um, and appreciate appreciate that, and and some people do it remarkably well. Uh I think Vern does it well, I think Steve Hanson, Wayne Smith do it well. I think those great relationship managers do that kind of thing really well.
SPEAKER_00:Me, that's a good one, man, because you we we often talk about like the mental state when you leave, make sure you don't let bring the baggage home, but also not like you've got a flick going the other way when you're coming in too, right? There's a you've got to be a wary and present, and and sometimes like we talked about earlier, your perception isn't always correct. What you see or you think you see isn't always right, you've got biases all over the show.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, that's exactly right. And you won't, and understanding those biases and and and and uh I think as a leader, don't be afraid to understand how your upbringing may impact your biases, you know, um and your way of acting and being. But I've been doing a really good course through London School Economics on negotiation, and it's been really, really good to um look at that paradigm between driving something through and collaps how do you come to collaborating something through with another party. Um, and actually you're not sitting across the table from them, you're sitting on the same side and identifying what problems you share together first. Um I think I've I've that that's the one learning I've I've got from this, um, which I've really enjoyed, is you're sitting on that same side of the table laying out the issues first that you may actually need to work together on, and out of that builds trust and so on. It's been a really good um because then you bring your biases and if you can start to share that because the other thing I was gonna say before was when you get a group that you can actually share what your worry is, is is a brilliant or even actually being bold enough to flick it out there first what your worry is and you watch them come to your you watch people come to your support. When you throw throw that out there, it's um yeah, I think it's a pretty special thing. That is special human beings are pretty cool in a lot of ways, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, share, share what your worry is and watch how people come support.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I reckon. Yeah, mate. Some won't. You need something to that too, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:That's exactly right. Now, mate, that's that's goal. Now, now, Hori, this this conversation is ripped on by, man. We're we're we're we haven't gone much longer. So I've just got just a quick one and then I'll close it out for you, mate. But you've now left rugby, you've made that call to go out on your terms, and now you're going, you've you've bought a business and you're applying everything you've learned in in rugby to your new business, mate. How how is that crossover from high performance sport to the business world or the corporate world?
SPEAKER_04:No, I haven't bought a business. I um I was looking at buying a business. I've ended up going into a business where basically someone has decided that they will support me in learning it and then they will make a decision. So it's even more Yeah, you're on trial. Yeah, I'm on trial. Yeah. And um by Jesus, that is scary. So you think your question was, what am I gonna bring into that? Yeah, yep. I think um definitely around people and care is really important. How can I support and help up is really important. How can I be adaptable and control my own emotions is gonna be really, really important within this, because there's a real high level of vulnerability in it. Um, and how am I gonna hold people to account in a manner which motivates them? That probably my four big things.
SPEAKER_00:What what is what does support up mean?
SPEAKER_04:Support up is luckily I've been a leader, um, and so I know how isolated that is. So how do I go in there and help um the person that's given me this opportunity to support his senior leadership team to be the best I can be to take the pressure off them or to have that conversation where they feel they can trust me without trying to um undermine them in any way and support them. Um and that's gonna take a little bit of time, um, and showing some really good actions that hopefully means that they uh trust and and and stuff, while at the same time, um 30 years in rugby means I've got a hell of a lot to learn about non-rugby stuff.
SPEAKER_00:You're actually starting again, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know who the ambenner from SAP is, but if I meet him in a dark alley, it's gonna He could have made it easier, surely.
SPEAKER_00:I love it, mate. I love it. Well, mate, I'm I'm sure your your learnings will will put you in bloody good stead, mate, because the pressure you've been under in these amazing roles for the last three decades, no doubt will put you in a good place to be able to adapt and to be flexible on that. Now, mate, the last question I'd like to ask is is just a bit of an interesting one because it it it always brings up interesting things. And this is this what's one belief you have, and I'll ask you about leadership actually. What's one belief belief you have about leadership that you believe in that you think your peers would disagree with?
SPEAKER_04:Uh care sometimes because when I'm driven uh particularly not so much within my environment, but with stakeholders when I'm fighting for my org organization, uh I can approach that. Um I've got that's my probably one of my greatest work ons um uh would be would be there. I think is um yeah, I I I think that perception outside of um actually genuine caring and how you approach that is is is key. Um and take some uh all I'd say to people on that is take some time on how you how you approach that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Bloody love and mm-hmm. That answer that, Benny? I love it. I love it. I do I do I actually as much as the question was who what you disagree, I actually believe that care is a massive one too. I think it's yeah, it's a huge part of um everything, family life, sports life, business life, it's it underpins it all. And sometimes we forget that we get we get thrown away in the swirl of things and think all this other stuff is more important, but it keeps coming back to that, I think.
SPEAKER_04:And we show it and really sometimes it manifests itself in the wrong way when actually you're actually coming from a really good place. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:That's a great point, mate. Andrew Hill Haw, what a pleasure to have you on the Coach and Culture podcast, mate. If I may, I I like to just sum up my three key takeaways from this conversation, mate. So here they are. Number one is mate, this understand the perception. Like you talked. About sometimes what you think you see is just what you think you see, like it's not hard in concrete, like you have a bias, and understanding that bias, understanding your upbringing, shapes your bias, and shining a bit of light on that fact is a really awesome one for leaders to be aware of. That what you see sometimes is just what you think you see, and it may not actually be reality. And I just think that's a lovely thing just to be aware of in yourself. Number two, that concept of seek to understand as a leader, ask questions, explore, and create environments where people can respond honestly. And that is a true art, and it doesn't come natural to a lot of people, but the more you can seek to understand what other people are thinking, the benefit it's going to have to your whole environment. And number three, your mental mind state, if that's a phrase, and getting it right both on entry and exit of the place where you're working. In this context, it's professional rugby, the way you approach the office or the field in the mornings, and the way you leave it. And leaving the way you turn up is very different to the way you leave, and you've just got to make sure that again your perception of what you're walking into is right for the people that you're approaching, and likewise, all the baggage that you've had throughout the day needs to be left at that place. So when you go home, the game stays on the field and you're in family mode, and that differential is important. It's up and down, it's getting that balance right, it's knowing when to be who, when, and where.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, brilliant. Thanks, man.