Coaching Culture with Ben Herring

Warren Kennaugh: Your Team Is Not A Democracy, And That’s Okay

• Ben Herring

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Pressure doesn’t invent behavior; it reveals it. That’s the heartbeat of our conversation with behavioral strategist Warren Kenor, who brings three decades of coaching across elite rugby, cricket, golf, and Olympic equestrian. We dig into why “snaps” are almost never sudden and how the minutes leading up to a mistake hold the clues coaches overlook. Warren shows how to decode patterns with robust profiling, translate data into action, and make leadership choices that are calm, strategic, and effective.

We confront the emotional rollercoaster head-on. Cheering and yelling aren’t sins; they’re tools—if they’re used to create a specific effect. When emotion becomes personal relief, teams pay the price. Warren explains why leaders’ highs and lows are a character weakness when unrestrained, and how to plan for both scoring and conceding so your sideline isn’t surprised by either. That mindset shift unlocks better halftime talks, smarter substitutions, and steadier decision-making in the final twenty minutes.

Culture and fit get real. We unpack the clash between a highly affiliative coach and an introverted captain, why recruitment too often relies on hope, and how transparency about your philosophy saves months of friction. Then we address a hard truth: everyone deserves respect, but not everyone is equally important to results. High-performance teams tilt the system to give their best players more meaningful touches. We share practical ways to identify your critical few, map their rewards and derailers, and keep them in the zone. You’ll hear a simple, brilliant intervention—“get bored, pass close”—that turned a serial late-game implosion into consistent performance.

If you lead under pressure, this conversation is a field guide: diagnose patterns, align values, use emotion with intent, and make small, targeted changes that move the scoreboard. Subscribe for more grounded, high-performance insights, share this episode with a coach who rides the rollercoaster, and leave a review with the one rule you’ll test this week.

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SPEAKER_02:

I'm not against cheering or I'm not against yelling at them, right? I'm not against that. If that's done strategically to get, you know, to get an outcome. I'm in. If I'm leading a team, the team doesn't want to be a victim to my highs and lows. This has never been done before, you know. If anyone's religious, they better start praying. There is a rhythm, there's a pattern about the way that we will consistently behave. There's a build-up, we self-manage. And then all of a sudden, then the crazy comes out.

SPEAKER_03:

Welcome to Gogic Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring. I've been loving this side of game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Warren Kenor. Warren is a behavioural strategist. He specialises in the development of, amongst other things, professional athletes and coach capability. He is a performance mental coach on the European PGA Olympic equestrian team, the international cricket scene and rugby Australia scene for 20 years now. He decodes how leaders think, how they react, how they decide, and how they derail themselves when pressure comes on. Now I've used Warren myself in the space, and his ability to read meat and my personality traits and my tendencies has been absolutely unreal. And from this class insight, he's given me some absolute gold to take away to make me a way better coach. So much so that I've even asked my wife to go see Warren and get some relationship advice as well. Warren, what an absolute pleasure to have you here on the Coaching Culture podcast.

SPEAKER_02:

Thanks, Ben. That's a uh introduction equivalent to Ed Shearer, and so I'm uh you know blessed and humble if only funny half of it was true. But anyway, let's move along.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, mate, we start strong, was and and and just go get higher and higher, mate.

SPEAKER_01:

It's downhill from there.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, before we get down to it, how do you define what you do to start off with? If I call you a uh behavioral strategist, what is what is that for you?

SPEAKER_02:

Look, um, my first degree's in engineering, and if you think about the basis of that, there was a real lot of predictability in that from a um uh from a uh planning and design perspective. I had a real interest in human behavior. And if we if we put those two in a blender, um I I I'd been fascinated about the way that um people's behavior is consistently predictable, even even within the crazy. So there is a there there is a rhythm, there's a pattern about the way that we will consistently behave, and unpacking and decoding that to actually enable them to go beyond what their technical skills may allow has been a bit of a fascination now for nearly 30 years.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. And do you find those consistent things are genuine patents? Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02:

Look, you you can move out of them if you're prepared to do some deep work, i.e., lie down and talk to someone. Yes. Right? And and two, two, most of us won't do that for two reasons. There's enough success in the world that we don't really need to kind of do that, and most of us won't do the work. You know, so you can almost you can it's a bit like a golfer who's a consistent slicer, right? It's a bit like, you know, don't stand on the right-hand side of the fairway because you're likely to get hit by a ball and get him to aim left. I wrote it, you know. I mean, that's a simple example. But we all, we, we, you know, we all are um we've we've all got patents of consistent behaviour, of what we value in the world, how we behave, and what triggers us under stress, stress and pressure. Pretty well predictable.

SPEAKER_03:

That's the amazing bit of the stuff you do, isn't it, Warren? That what happens under pressure.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Because that that's the bit for coaches in particular, is when the pressure comes on, people shift, right?

SPEAKER_02:

I and and you know, think about work in sport with coaches because they're really attentive to their players, right? As as you and you and you and I discussed it before we started, you know, in corporate it's different. If the numbers are coming in, then it doesn't matter. Do you know what I mean? You know, if you've been a mortgage broker in this country in the last 20 years, um, you know, and apologies for any mortgage brokers listening, you you perhaps don't need to be that clever, right? The fish have been jumping into the boat, right? Um, but you know, in sport it is interesting. The coach can actually see the point of derailment. What they can't see is what actually started at 10, 15, 20 minutes prior. Hmm. There's something that starts at prior. It's not all of a sudden that we all of a sudden we snap. There's a build-up, we self-manage, and then all of a sudden, then the crazy comes out, we actually kind of go, there we go.

SPEAKER_03:

How do you get coaches to see that, mate?

SPEAKER_02:

I can see the outcome, right? And if you've got trust, you can actually kind of go, and and I and I do a lot of um, I do a lot of psychological profiling because it's a tool that actually can objectively look at how someone is wired. Now, if you're clever, you can actually see it or if we go pig shooting for six weeks, we'll work it out, right? But if you can get a tool that's objective, then you can actually start looking where looking where you need to look.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. And so that you when you're talking about these profiling, these are these classic sort of Myers-Briggs type, the different coloured dots, those equivalent type ones?

SPEAKER_02:

The hosts really, yeah, yeah. You want one, and it's the one that you and I have been through. You want one with a bit of rigo uh uh about it, you know. So the tool that I use has got 169 measures. There's over there's uh there's 600 questions. Do you know what I mean? You've actually got some, and it'd be a bit like in rugby, right? You don't just kind of go, well, you know, kick off, we caught it, we scored a try, happy days, right? The the analytics that go on behind that, you know, the dots and zeros that go on behind that are enormous. And and the more the more complex the data, the easier it is to see the trends. Is that right? Yeah, yeah, because you can see it. They bubble up, right? And you kind of go, great, you know, there's you know, you can start to see you can start to see patterns.

SPEAKER_03:

What are what are some of the big changes what are the big patterns you see? What are the big changes in behaviour uh when the pressure comes on that you see most with probably coaches?

SPEAKER_02:

Look, uh, you know, um I was watching um and we talk about the sport that you and I love. I was watching Full Contact, um, you know, on Netflix, right? And there's there's a hundred shows like that. There's the Formula One One, there's the Golf One, there's all of those, right? And and it occurred to me, so I'm watching that I I'm fascinated with coaches, right? So it occurred to me that, you know, the the I don't remember which term it was, I do, but I won't I won't name him. So so they score a try, and all of a sudden the coach is up out of his chair clapping. And I thought, were you not expecting that today? I mean, what what are you applauding for? I mean, what didn't they just follow the plan? But if you weren't expecting it, then I get the applause, right? Yeah. Right? And and m my main concern was is that, and I know he would have assistant coaches of this, is to kind of go, how did that happen? Right? I'm more interested in him saying it half time, keep passing it inside, you know, run, you know, run at the number four. He can't tackle, we'll run just there all day. Right. So when I'm celebrating the thing, I'm not actually seeing what happened because I'm I'm you know celebrating the outcome. And of course, no surprise in the second half, his team got scored against. And of course, you know, the pens are being thrown down, the arms are in the air. And even my wife, who was watching it with me, says, Well, no surprise about that, wasn't it? Two knock-ons and a penalty. I mean, that was just destined to happen, right? So I I I came to the thing, yeah, certainly with coaches, is that we get over exuberant about when we win, like as if we're not expecting it, and we're so ill-prepared for defeat. Like, was that was that coach expecting to go through the Six Nations series un you know, without a try being scored against him? Right? It'd it'd be a bit like it'd be a bit like if you're you know you're single and you're going out and you're meeting people, you might actually kind of go, look, at some point you're gonna be rejected. Have you got a plan for that?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, yeah. Well, you probably don't think about that because you're just you're just hoping for the very best, aren't you?

SPEAKER_02:

There's the problem, yeah. Guessed, right? You know, you're a professional sports team and you're hoping for the very best. Now, I kind of got that on a bad day, right? But that's that's that's a that's a bit short on professionalism and a bit short on being prepared. You're hoping for the very best.

SPEAKER_03:

Are you saying, Warren, that uh uh that that sort of emotion being seen as as sort of an indication of something bigger and deeper that you're not quite nailing uh in your personality and w how you're holding yourself as a coach?

SPEAKER_02:

I d uh for me it would. I mean, I you know, I'm you know, I you know, I'm the leader of this group. Right? It it's a bit like the captain on a plane. The last thing you want to hear, the great example is when um, you know, that Captain Scully landed on the Hudson River however many years ago. Yes. Came over the mic, we're gonna land on the Hudson River, it's never been done. Don't worry, I've been planning this for 30 years in my mind. Now, Ben, if you and I are on that plane in business classes, we would be here to be order another round of drinks and let's look out the window for the show, right? Now, if you've got someone that's a bit rash and a bit unpredictable, is coming to go, we'll land on the Hudson River, this has never been done before. You know, if anyone's religious, they better start praying, right? Um do you know what I mean? We're, you know, we're we're you know, we're sending text messages to our family saying goodbye. Now, that's probably okay in that situation, but if I'm leading a team, the team doesn't want to be a victim to my highs and lows.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes, and this is a very common coach's trait, isn't it? The highs and lows.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I would go in for highs and lows generally are a character weakness.

SPEAKER_03:

Ooh. Explain, explain why that is.

SPEAKER_02:

It's a weakness to my character. I mean, do I, you know, do I think I'm never going to be scored against, right? Do I think that the referee decision that goes against me is wrong? Maybe it is, right? Do I think the referees are cheat, right?

SPEAKER_00:

At those higher levels, they're kind of not, right? They're quite professional about things.

SPEAKER_03:

And so what would you suggest if because this is common, right? Well w how do you analyze yourself and how do you go how do you make shifts and things on that regard?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I I would say be careful of, you know, be be aware of what's gonna trigger you and what message that that that that that sends to the troops. Now, I'm not against, I'm not against cheering or I'm not against yelling at them, right? I'm not against that. If that's done strategically to get you know, to get an outcome, I'm in. So I'm not saying it's bad. I'm saying the unrestrainedness of it and the lack of self-management, that's a problem.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. How do you know the difference? Is is it just m a matter of whether you've thought about it enough?

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, whether it's strategic enough, right? You know, whether you certainly don't want to yell at the players, right? But I'm all for that, right? But I'd be kind of going, you know, if if I caught you when we're gonna say, what are we gonna do? We're gonna yell at them. Fantastic, great. What what are you hoping to achieve? Right?

SPEAKER_01:

And the moment the moment the response is, well, I feel better, I'd be kind of going, listen, what go to road and get someone else to address them.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, well, what do you say to coaches? Because I've had a few say, look, hey, that's just me, that's just the way I am. I wear my heart on the sleeve, I'm emotional. Uh that's a I just think that's me as a coach. Deal with it.

SPEAKER_00:

I'd say grow up.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I'd say grow up. Is that the bet is that that's the best you got grow up?

SPEAKER_03:

I like that, mate, because it's yeah, because that that is the the argument you get from a lot of coaches in those because those co coaching, especially in rugby, the high level uh coaches' boxes are pretty pretty intense in some of the languages.

SPEAKER_02:

No no doubt, but that's what you signed up for, right? It's not the un with all respect to the underrates that you know at you know you had Croydon Park. With all respect to them, it's not that. You've actually signed on, they're paying you big bucks. Right? And and they obviously bought your technical skills and your reputation. I got that, right?

SPEAKER_03:

Yep.

SPEAKER_02:

But they've also got the you they're also paying you the big bucks for your ability to engage and influence and put yourself second to serve the team.

SPEAKER_00:

Put yourself second. Because that's what it's about, right?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I love it, mate.

SPEAKER_02:

I and and and and Ben, simple rule. If it if it works on the field or it works at the office, it probably works at home. So imagine I said to my lovely wife 20 years ago, listen, do you want to get married? And by the way, Thursday nights touch footy, I'm not giving that up. Friday nights beers with the boys, Saturday I'm off to the races, and and I might be home depending on who I bump into. And so just so comatosed, I'm laying on the couch and don't talk to me. And she might kind of go, Well, you're a catch. Right? You wouldn't do that. She might kind of go, There's nothing in this for us. You've got to contribute to something bigger than you, Warren.

SPEAKER_03:

That's a great analogy, Warren. Like when you put it like that, it's very clear that you've got to shift if you want to make that relationship work. But so too it is with as a coach in a box, right?

SPEAKER_02:

Straight away. My job is to get the best out of what I got, right? And I'm probably not happy with what I got. So my job is to manage myself to how do I get our mate that I don't like, who's probably three out of ten.

SPEAKER_00:

How do I get him to four? How do you mate?

SPEAKER_03:

How do you do you get any pushback on this stuff when you're when you're telling when you're slapping coaches in the face with this sort of stuff? Do you get like egos, do you get pushback? What happens when you're saying saying this sort of stuff?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, uh look, the the the the more experienced and mature ones kind of get it, right? And it's a bit like our discussion here, right? You're not kind of going, well, I think you're totally wrong, you know, the the the you know now if you are if you're the Tiger Woods of your field, right? If you're Sir Alex Ferguson, you probably earn the right to do it your way, right? Wayne Bennett's a great example, in my opinion, right? He's got a reputation that proceeds. He's a great man manager too, right? But he's got a reputation that proceeds him. He's probably earned the right to do it the way that he wants to. The rest of us, I'm not so sure, right?

SPEAKER_03:

There's not many.

SPEAKER_02:

If you're the best in the world, I'll put up with you. I don't forget I had a a very, very successful test match referee said to me, Warren, I don't need to be nice to the players. I said, totally agree. Never make a mistake. Because they said the moment you make a mistake, they'll be lying in the grass waiting for you, right?

SPEAKER_03:

Yes. Yes. Well, referees is a good one, isn't it? Because they're under all sorts of pressure every single game, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I take my hat off to any, any, any, any, any single, single sport, you know, any any single athlete sport, you know, you know, golf, tennis, you know, professional jockey, cycling, right? It's no room to hide. There's absolutely no room to hide. You can't just kind of go, well, it was the forward's fall or it was the backs fault, right? There's no room to hide.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, I guess, I guess on the on the flip side to that, when you're working with teams, how come when people work together, uh, you know, they sometimes struggle to work together, like coaches and players, teams, like why do why do smart people struggle to work together well at times?

SPEAKER_02:

Um, so we've got a core set of values that we operate on, and it's not the stuff that we hang on the wall, and it's not, you know, family, country, you know, um uh, you know, holding cars in the Bible. It's not that stuff that we sprout out of our mouth, right? We've got a core set of values, and it's things that we believe need to be present for us to be successful. So I'll give you an example. There was a a new coach of the team that I worked with, highly affiliative, believed in team, believed in collaboration, believed in networking, believed in one in all in, right? So you'd kind of go, yeah, great philosophy. Harvard Business Review loves it. People like me make money out of it, so it's a good principle. Problem was is the captain who was pro he was quite strong, was quite introverted and believed just swim in your lane and do your job. So at the first meeting, the coach stands up and basically says, Listen, you know, after the game we'll all get together, bring the families, you know, have a meal, you know, you know, sing the team song, We Are the World, We Are the Children, all of this type of stuff, right?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And then his first team meeting, the captain turns up, turns, he's sitting in the front row, turns his back to the coach and says, ignore that. I've had enough of you guys by the time I spent the time with you through the week and and um uh you know at the game. He said, We won't be doing that. Back to you, coach. Oh yeah. And I'm kind of laughing, you know, laughing like a child up the back because it was so predictable, right? You know, the coach had a had a core philosophy that he believed in. The the the captain was very, very different. Right. And you know, never the twain shall me. So I think you know, the challenges are is is is the I I believe in it in a different set of values or principles than what you do.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, I believe in being under the radar and working hard, you believe in being a show pony and you know, day, you know, the the sun's out, so let's do a photo shoot. I believe in hard work, you believe in actually making it easy for yourself because you're so talented, you know, you know, I you know, I believe in doing the right thing, I believe in slipping and you believe in doing the right thing, I believe in slipping and sliding around. It it's never going to work. And this is why, in my opinion, when you actually get very, very talented players that come into a team and we're all so excited they're marquee players, all the fans get their name tattooed down their arm. And of course, oh mate that scored 20 goals last season, if we talk about football or EPL, all of a sudden scores one the following season. There's no values fit. And what we know is that the brain cannot process what's going on and perform. So I'll give you give you a bit of an example. I'm working with a uh a uh corporate salesperson at the moment, smart woman. She believes in actually building tribe, building community, we all grow together. Um yeah, so she's quite altruistic, really caring. What, you know, what you know, wants to build support for potential for potential users of their product, potential customers. Her manager says, Well, listen, where's the money?

unknown:

Right?

SPEAKER_02:

The other one says, Well, it's not here yet, here's what's gonna happen. She's kind of going, this is not gonna work, right? Because there's no money here, right? Where's the money? Where's the money? Where's the money? I'm building community, I'm building tribe, where's the money? Where's the money? I'm building community, building tribe. As I said to the building tribe person, I said, you're not gonna win. You know, you're not gonna, you're being measured against something that is not your same measure. This is gonna end in tears. We said all the time, we said all the time in sports teams.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, well, like so. You can say, for example, like some coaches are looking for just a great culture and a great great environment. Others just want to win. That's all that matters.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah, others just want to, yeah, others just want to win. Yeah. Yeah, so some are some are, you know, you know, very, you know, what what was it? Um, you know, you look at the NFL, I can't think of the second guy's name, John, John Gruden, I think, was one guy's name. He won won Super Bowl with Tampa. He yelped and berated his players, pushed them out of the way, told them how hopeless they were, showed them how to do it. His team won. There was another Dick Vermillion was the other guy. Dick would cry in front of his players and and and tell them he loved them. His team won the Super Bowl a couple of years later. So if we think about what does the team need, not just what do you need. Now, you you kind of hope you get the right coach with the right, you know, with the right team. But we don't pick for that. We roll out the prayer map and light the candle and hope that it works right, and then we kind of sat, right?

SPEAKER_03:

That's right. And and this is where it can be wrong if the back end of the like the people that employed you were after different things.

SPEAKER_02:

Straight away. And we don't test for it. It's all predictable, we don't test for it. So we don't, yeah, and I've got, I've got, there's not a hundred people lining up. I've kind of got that, right? But maybe if there's maybe if there's three, then maybe maybe we could be a little bit more astute about how we engage them. And maybe if we just fall in love with one and do you know what I mean? You know, we go heads in and long in on one, we just kind of go, great, but look, let's let's unwrap the Christmas presents before Christmas. And let's actually understand to this guy and kind of go, right, now you understand that you're similar to this, but a bit different to that, you know, with it, you know, within players in the playing group.

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

And because it's not like that we don't bump into it. We stub our toe below the waterline anyway. It just takes six minutes, six weeks, six months before we work out that you're a weird cat. That's right. That's right. And then we decide whether we're gonna follow you or not, right? Or whether we're gonna go on strike.

SPEAKER_03:

And it's too late. Well, so would you say to a coach that's in a team, it's it's better just to put it all out there what you are, and just early as possible, just to stop that later on, or just go this way.

SPEAKER_02:

Transparency, that is really important, right? If that's if that's all you're gonna do, I think kind of, you know, you know, how how you believe the team's gonna win? What do you believe in? You know, what are we gonna get from you and not get from you? What are you gonna talk about and not talk about? What's important to you or not important to you?

SPEAKER_03:

Do you just say it? Do you just say do you just put it all out there? Is that your recommendation?

SPEAKER_02:

If nothing else, it's you know, at least it gets it out there, right? If you then if you're mature enough, right, you know, like you you're not one of the, well, this is just me, right?

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_02:

If you're mature enough, you might actually kind of go, and I'm assuming some of you might have a differing opinion. I would love to hear about that, because I want to incorporate that. But I wanted to explain first about how, without, you know, without any form of management, how I think about things and how I'm likely to roll.

SPEAKER_03:

I like that, mate. You you that's almost on a job interview. You should almost say it on the interview for the job, right?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, but we're all desperate on what the job, right? So I'm not gonna I'm not gonna be too transparent.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm gonna say things you want to hear, and I'm gonna do the secret handshake, and I'm gonna pretend I like you and put our son together. That's what I'm gonna do, right?

SPEAKER_03:

I love it, mate. Well, mate, what before before you get into the jobs, what are the big motivators that you see across the different different types of personalities for coaches? What what are the different things that keeps coaches motivated?

SPEAKER_02:

Um look, we we could we could say it's about winning, and there's no doubt that fundamentally at the top level that you know that's what it's about. But um there's three core motivators. Status as a motivator. Right. So, you know, am I recognized? Have I got a challenge? You know, do I have you know do I have flexibility as to what I want to do? You know, there the coaches are kind of coming, I will run my program and you will write the checks. Right. Um, there's a uh uh almost like a social conscience group, so I actually believe in tribe, I believe in doing the right thing, I believe in uh looking after people. And then there's another group that wants to run it like a business and a and a and a very kind of strong about certainty and predictability, and this is a program that we're gonna run. So it's not a it's not about me, but it's more more so about running it like a business. And all are successful, right? So this is not who's more successful, it's about what does the team respond to.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes. And how do you work that out? How do you know what your team wants or needs?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, that's the tricky bit, right? There's no doubt, there's no doubt that's the tricky bit. And look, I would say, um, and you know, no doubt we'll have some people with wind whistling there between their teeth as I mention this. Um everyone deserves to be treated with respect in a team.

SPEAKER_00:

Everyone. Not everyone's important. Yes, I guess hit me with that one.

SPEAKER_02:

So it's a bit like um, you know, the the you know, I you know, I I follow a um uh an NRL team on the northern beaches. And until recently, if the number seven got the ball and everyone could just get out of the way and we could get it to our number one, we score a try and we win. And the more that the the more that number seven gets it and throws it to number one, perhaps perhaps not last year, but in in recent years, the more the the more successful we are. If you were to come to me and say, listen, it's it's not fair, or I haven't I haven't touched the ball, I'd kind of go good.

SPEAKER_00:

I love it, Warren.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, yeah, I get it.

SPEAKER_02:

Lay down and get out of the way, please, right? You're numbers something else, right? So I think that there's some key people that we need to have all singing, all dancing. Right? If we look at if we if we look at cricket, right? If the first four or five players, in the first four or five batsmen don't get the runs, we're in big trouble. Now it's lovely that the number 11 saves us, but if that's the plan, that's something wrong. Same thing with the bowlers, right? Top, you know, the uh a two opening, probably first change. You want them to get the majority of the wickets. They need to be all singing, all dancing in what they do. You know, what the what the part-time all-rounder kind of does and chips in with a few wickets, which is blessed. But that's not the plan. The plan can't be. You know, that the the part-time is the star and he's gonna get all the wickets, it just can't be. You want to you want to stack the deck and tip it out of equilibrium so that your best players touch the ball the most, they can do their magic, we follow them, we score a try.

unknown:

Right?

SPEAKER_00:

You want Payne Haas doing the hit-ups, right?

SPEAKER_02:

Right? This is an orchestra. How do you get the orchestra to to to sing and and play their best? And it's not always it' it it it it's not always equal. It's not always fair.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, mate, I have that same one with my kids when I say when that when the younger says, How come I don't uh how come I don't get to stay up there like everyone else? It's not fair. I say, Do you want me to treat you like your sister? And they go, No, no, I don't. No, I don't.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Yeah, and and it and it's a myth that the world is fair. It's not fair.

SPEAKER_03:

Is that the is that the reality you're talking like? You've got to have this level of sort of not this is not an edge to it, because you have said everyone needs respect, but not everyone is important for your context, right? Like in your context, there's there's people that are more important, so they should be treated more importantly. Is that what you're saying?

SPEAKER_00:

They should be treated differently.

SPEAKER_02:

And that happens in life, right? Yeah. That happens in life. You know, no one no limo comes and picks me up and takes me wherever I want to go. Right? There's it's it it's not how I mean no one's giving away first-class flights to me. It's but I'm sure there's people that do get that.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I like that, mate.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, the the whole world is set up, you know, to achieve a power differential. The whole world. My job is to be as effective as what I can and and to be nice and kind to people along the way and treat them with respect.

SPEAKER_03:

And and and do you get this? Uh when you do your profiling stuff, do you actually put practical ways in that you actually can determine who is important and and then make changes to that baby?

SPEAKER_02:

Very, very specific about how best, if you've got someone that's important, about what they value, what language they want, how to reward and recognize them, how they're likely to derail, what they're like, how they're likely to behave on a normal day. All of that is very predictable and mappable.

SPEAKER_03:

How how would someone typically derail like one of those star performers?

SPEAKER_02:

Uh either they have a brain explosion, get volatile, they get too skeptical and they don't trust their teammates, so they do it all themselves. They get very, very cautious and in cricket turn a, you know, turn a three into a two, a two into a one, a one into a no. Never get out. So said to said to a said to a player, but two years ago, you don't get out enough. That's the problem. The strike rate was low, right? Very, very cautious. I get too, I get uh too confident. I'm gonna charge the bowler on the first ball, even though I promised I wouldn't. It's all about me, right? Is the sun out because I'm looking at my shadow running on the ground? Get too perfectionistic. A lot of a lot of um uh uh lot of players, a lot of technical players get very, very perfectionistic, you know.

SPEAKER_03:

Overanalysing detail on a yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

A lot of golfers think that if I find Byron Nelson's swing, I'll win.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Does it relate to rugby too, in terms of the same principles, like goal kickers and things like that?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I would say so, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyone that's too t anyone that's too technical dies too much in the weeds and assuming that, you know, you know, I you know, I've got to get a certain thing to happen for a result to happen. Now, part of me likes that, right? None of this is actually um um, you know, you're on your way to the mental asylum. But when it's done too much at expense of the outcome, that that's when it becomes problematic. So this are these are examples are about where I feel uncomfortable, so no, now I'm going to raise my needs above the task that is required.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So let's go back, let's go back, you know, let's go back to that coach that's annoyed at halftime, right? And you and I are up bumping in and say, great, didn't go as planned. What's your thought? What's your thoughts? I'm gonna go yell at them, right? Fantastic, well done. What are you hoping that achieves? I haven't got a clue, but I'm gonna feel better, right? I mean, there's a great example about a volatility thing. Now, am I saying that that mightn't work? It might not work, but if you do it every game, right, the player's eyes are just gonna seal over. Figures in the ears going la la la la la la la. Yeah. Not listening, they're not listening. And then they'll then then they won't listen to you. You could have the lotto numbers, they're not listening because I've already decided that you're just a ranter. Job done, right? All of a sudden, team starts to lose. We sack the coach. Yeah. And then of course the coach goes on and does the same thing in another club, right? And and if he's lucky, it works, right? Because we love being ranted at.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, well, mate, and well, okay, in that case, if that's the negative, what is the what's a behavior that that does the opposite that coaches can pick up, mate? Like what's what's consistently lifts the team's culture?

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, look very much about looking for what the team needs and being prepared to go on, and and I know that that sounds vague, but every every team is subtly different. Right? Knowing some key people in the team need to be technical. So you need to give them the research, the data, the analytics, the why. Some of them are more intuitive, you just got to kind of just do this. Some of them want, you know, cardinals, some of them want praise and high fives just for turning up without doing anything. Some of them have boundaries, right?

SPEAKER_00:

Yep. You know, d this is a bit like, you know, how do you cook a good meal?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, what are we cooking for? I I could I could roll out some glib stuff that you'd read in the Harvard Business Review, but it's it's it's so high and level it's not gonna work. You know, you need to create trust and empathy and safe face and psychological safety. And all of that's right.

SPEAKER_03:

Hmm. Well, I remember, mate, when you did me, did my personality test and you said uh I came out really high scoring on the aesthetics side of things, and and you said, and you nailed me, you said you enjoy putting a lot of time into the way um the art of the presentation, so that it's people buy into it and all that stuff. And you said to me, you score really highly on that. However, you know, you score way more than most. So most people don't need the level that you're delivering at. So you need to chuck in some data because most people are going to need more data than you would naturally put out. And for me, it was a gold realization, just where I sat on a spectrum and go, right, if I'm way up here, super high here, mate, 90% of people aren't on my level. And so I need to tone it back a little bit if I want to connect with the majority, which you know, 90% of us actually saying, put it away, Ben.

SPEAKER_02:

We're sick of you banging on about it, right? But we're too worth to say that, right? So our eyes will roll and we'll, you know, we'll give you a little fairy clap and that'll make you happy, and you know, so that we make you go away, right? Most of us are not gonna come to you and say, listen, mate, that stuff you bang on about, hope that's for you because it's nothing for us.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, that's right. And it's just that awareness piece around that, isn't it, Warren?

SPEAKER_02:

Right, and and Ben, what we then do, if it doesn't work, we then kind of go, I'm just gonna amplify. So I'm gonna do it more and I'm gonna do it more often, because I think that this is a good thing because that's what we believe is goodness. And and we know people are different, but but I'm sure we kind of go, I I I don't know what else to do. So I'm just gonna do what what I believe is right, and it'll go one way or another. You'll either give in and collapse, or I'll just annoy you. And either one's fine, but I can't work out what to do. Now I'm not saying that's conscious.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

But it you you know, at least it it at least if you if you're yelling at me, I know that it's worked wrong.

SPEAKER_00:

It's the passive withdrawal that's a real problem.

SPEAKER_03:

Passive withdrawal, just stepping back going, I don't know what to do, I'm just gonna do nothing.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, you're just being agreeable, right? I mean, you know, and you see a lot of um, we see a lot of people today that are nice people that are just very agreeable, but you know, you know, you know, passive aggressive, white anking, not being honest. At least if I'm a table banger, you know where I stand.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. And that's why a lot of coaches are actually that way inclined, isn't it? Because players at least go, well, I know what he's I know what he thinks.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, and look, the research shows that one is slightly better. We like people that are more passive aggressive because they're agreeable. But the problem is that the truth goes underground. That's the problem.

unknown:

Right?

SPEAKER_02:

If I'm in your face and you're in my face, at least we know okay, great, it's on the table. We can work this kind of out, right? Gee. But I'm not sure it's I'm not sure it's strategic. I just think it's aspect, this is who I am.

SPEAKER_01:

And I'm just going to go, well, good for you, right?

SPEAKER_03:

I love it.

SPEAKER_01:

Hope you find a team that works, otherwise, you'll be moving on quite soon, right? You know, I love it.

SPEAKER_03:

I love it.

SPEAKER_01:

Because team's gonna go, did you buy on rent in the area, right?

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, so good, mate. So good. Hey, now Warren, we've we've got to sort of now the the pointy end where I just want to ask you one more question because I could talk to you for days on this stuff, and it's such gold. But mate, what what is um what's one thing you uh if you could give to some make someone understand about people under pressure, what would it be?

SPEAKER_00:

So ha have a look when you see them under pressure.

SPEAKER_02:

Get to know that as an outcome, and then talk to them about what led them to that. What was the you know, what was the widge under the door, what started them? So give me give me give an example. This is a rugby league example. I work with a team and um the um I said to that, I said to the coaches, I said, what happens to this certain player somewhere between the 48th minute and the 63rd minute? And they said, Ah, yeah, we know about that. And I said, What goes on? They said, We haven't got a clue, but he just goes crazy. Right, so we can all see about that about that time consistently he derailed. And uh so I sat the player to look at his profile, sat the player down, high learning, wanted to learn, bought a teacher. I said, We better bring some clips. And I said to him, Look, I said, what goes on? You know, we see this behavior where you just do something crazy. Right. And he said, Um, uh, I actually get a bit bored. I said, right, what do you what do you do when you get a bit bored? He said, I try and do the longest cutout pass that I've ever done. I said, How does that go? I said, Do you ever practice? And he said, No. I said, How does that go? Do you reckon? And he said, Um, not Good, and I said, What happens after that? He said, Well, I've got to make up for it. So I said, I've got to do something even bolder. I said, How does that go? He said, Not good, because that's even more unhinged. And I said, What happens? He said, I'm gone. He said, I'm just not even present after that. And I said, So you can understand that breathing visualization is just not going to work by the time you're just out of your body. He said, I understand that. I said, We've got to triage this when you get bored. And I said to him, rather than passing it to the longest person away, do you think you could pass it to the closest? He said, I could do that. I said, just when you get bored. So get bored pass close. You know, could we have that agreement? He said, I could do that. I mean, the coaches are just kind of looking at me. I said, so we've got an agreement. I'm gonna watch. Get bored pass close, get bored pass close, get bored pass close. We got it. That's that's simple, all you need to do.

SPEAKER_00:

So we got it. Two year conflict. Beautiful. Equestrian team was.

SPEAKER_03:

Warren, what an absolute pleasure to have you uh with me on the Coach and Culture podcast. I will I appreciate you've got lots to do, mate. You're a busy man, so I'll let you get underway, mate. But I just love this little conversation, mate. Just particularly uh just a couple of things I really enjoyed you talking about was uh that that concept that the highs and lows are a character weakness. I just think that's a really cool um thing just to be aware of that yelling at people is is only okay if it's a strategic thing, which isn't for everybody. So that was my big takeaway from this little chat, mate. And the second point was that everybody needs respect, but not everyone is important in a team setting. I just think that's a really cool one in a day and age where potentially uh there's a a pull to treat everyone equally, is actually you've got to treat people differently from who they are and their importance on the overall break of picture. Hey, Warren, thank you, my friend, for joining me today on the Coach and Culture Podcast.