Greg Cooper: Character will beat talent.

Winning teams aren’t built on slogans. They’re built on agreed standards lived every day, and Greg Cooper shows how to get there with clarity, compassion, and competitive edge. From record points as a player to head coaching across New Zealand, Japan, France, and the USA, Greg walks us through the culture mechanics that actually move the needle: listening first, understanding the region and its history, then building a leadership layer of “connectors” who represent workers, pros, imports, and young players. This isn’t about tactics; it’s about vibe, frictions, and real-life pressures that derail performance if leaders don’t catch them early.

Greg opens up about early coaching mistakes, like filling silence with certainty he didn’t have and designing drills that created practice illusions. The correction is simple and hard: flip your frame to the defense, get immediate feedback from the unit trying to stop you, and anchor sessions in reality, not theory. He’s equally candid on selection calls he’d change today, shifting toward people before player within consistent standards. He rejects the myth that a healthy squad is universally happy. In a 47-man group, he wants most content and the rest hungry but not angry, which demands transparent communication and fairness applied the same way for everyone.

The most powerful thread is mindset. Diagnosed with Ewing sarcoma at 15, Greg learned the psychological can shape the physiological. That insight forged habits—training through treatment cycles, stacking routines, and turning Sunday into the start of healing after losses. Talent wins moments; character and standards win seasons. If you lead teams in any domain, you’ll leave with practical ways to design culture, handle pressure, and coach the person without lowering the bar for performance.

If this conversation sharpened your craft, follow the show, share it with a coach who needs it, and leave a quick review to help others find us. What standard will you commit to this week?

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Transcript

Opening And Greg’s Playing Legacy

SPEAKER_02 1:06

I'm not after Saints here. I'm just, but I'm just after people that will fit into the into the standards of the team. I think the big thing I learned in those early days was don't try and make out I know everything because I don't. I realised there and then that if my mind can make me sick, what can I do to reverse it? What can I do to actually make myself well through my mind? If everyone's happy, I think something's not quite right in my environment. Sunday alert, because that's the start of healing. You know, I can now I can heal. I I I've now got a chance.

SPEAKER_00 1:39

Welcome to Coaching Culture, the podcast about cultivating culture and leadership. I'm Ben Herring. I've been loving this soda game for bloody ages. Today's guest is Greg Cooper. Now, Greg is an iconic name in the South Island of New Zealand as a player here as Otaga's highest ever point scorer. 1,520 points. And went on to represent the All Blacks in that era where professional rugby was just beginning in the Southern Hemisphere. He has gone on to be a hugely experienced professional head coach around the world, head coaching Otago and the Highlanders, All Black under 21s in New Zealand, as well as assistant coaching with the Blues, head coach of NECM Mitsubishi in Japan, head coach of Stud France in France, head coach of the Utah Warriors in the USA. That is four out of five of the continents in the world ticked off that Greg has led at the highest level. Greg Cooper, welcome to the Coaching Culture podcast and what a journey it has been for you.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

When you said 1520 points, I'm thinking we used to kick a lot of penalties in these days.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

Weren't tries worth four points back then, too?

SPEAKER_02 2:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah, they were. They were. They changed over. They changed over. And I actually got it. I think I got a few tries at five points, but I did get a few at four points.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

Do you have to go through and and retweak some of those stats to like inflation?

SPEAKER_02 2:54

There was one record, there was one record there that I think I'd like to judge I'd like to have that one again. Because I think I might go up the other rankings on that one.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

Yeah, it does make a difference, mate. It's like buying a kick.

SPEAKER_02 3:05

I didn't score that many tries. I can't actually, it was more kicks than tries, to be honest.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

Nice, mate. Well, mate, what a journey it's been, right? It's been a whale over time, just floating all over the show. How have you found it?

SPEAKER_02 3:16

Oh I loved it, uh Jamie and I really have. I um uh got into coaching back in professional coaching back in 2001 on the back of no experience. You know, I was doing television. I was doing television commentary. I was uh managing the area sales manager for Spadesbury in Dunedin. So in a team leadership role in business um and doing rugby via television. So at the time Laurie Maines was coming back from South Africa looking for assistant coaches. The CEO at the time, John Hornbrook at Targo, asked if I'd go in and uh be assistant coach with Wayne Graham. So I stumbled across a coaching career.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

Wow, and how is that like welcome? What would you struggle with, you know, being launched into pro rugby with very limited experience?

Early Coaching Lessons And Humility

SPEAKER_02 4:01

Well, I think you you you had a lot of textbook sort of understanding. And um, it's not until you put some of that stuff out there that okay, that doesn't quite work or or it does work. So it was. It was um I was lucky at the time. There's some really good players around, Tony Brown, Jeff Wilson, and all those sort of guys. So you're coaching some good, you know, some really talented um uh players. So I think the big thing I learned in those early days was don't try and make out I know everything because I don't. And uh, but when you're young, you want to impress because you're trying to, I suppose you're trying to uh earn the stripes and you haven't earned the stripes. So you've got to be very careful. So, you know, a couple of times I'd go and say something, I'd think, oh, I've gone a bit far here. Someone's asked me a question and I've just I've filled the space. All I've done is I've filled the space, and then I've thought, I'm not sure I filled the space correctly, you know. So you learn, you learn.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

Mate, that's a fascinating one because that's a very common coaching trait when you're young, isn't it? To think about it.

SPEAKER_02 4:56

Yeah, it is, it is, it is, it is. It's uh because you don't want you don't want your players to think you don't know. And no one knows everything. You know, the the greatest coaches in the world don't know everything. So it's a big trap. It's a big trap to answer something you don't know. But clearly at that level or that those early days, you know, I was learning. So I was filling a bit of space, to be honest. So uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

Well, and working with Tony Brown in those early days as a player, uh have you taught him everything? You know, yeah, he's now kicking on to be one of the world's bigger therapists.

SPEAKER_02 5:26

It's coming through. South Africa are benefiting now, aren't they? Uh Brown Brownie was really clever, you know, it was really great dealing with Brownie. Because Brownie's one of those guys who I thought was an out well, he was an outstanding rugby player, and he had a very good all-black career, you know, amongst, you know, guys like Mertens and Spencer. Um so he wasn't the the limelight, but he's a guy that had to work very hard. And I think he the reason he's become quite a good coach, well, not quite a very good coach, is because he wasn't the most naturally talented. So he's had to think about it, he's had to work hard. And I think those players in certain positions that have to work hard, that aren't the most talented, potentially have a head start when it comes to coaching. And I think he fits that category. A hard worker, smart operator, really a lot of thought a lot about his game to get to the highest level.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

Why do you think is that just because the talent wasn't at the very high, so he had to do all those other little things really well?

SPEAKER_02 6:19

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, little things. And I mean, you know, Brownie probably won't mind me saying, but Brownie cut his his hand through a plate, I think it was a plate glass door when he was younger. And, you know, a few of the boys caught on the claw because his hand's like that. Now, just catching a ball, I'm thinking, how does he catch a ball? But clearly he honed his skill, you know, to be able to do that because Brownie was a great passer of the ball. So, you know, you've got to work and you know, you've got to adapt and you've got to learn. So that was a physical thing he had to work through. And and and then obviously on top of that, as I said, Mertens was an absolute talent. Spencer was an absolute talent. Brownie didn't have that talent, but what he did have is he had the uh the application, or obviously he had a certain amount of talent. You don't become all black if you don't, but that um I had that application to actually uh bring to the surface every little bit of talent that he had.

SPEAKER_00 7:06

I love it. Do you think it's the same for coaches?

SPEAKER_02 7:08

And what way? How do you mean?

SPEAKER_00 7:10

Do you think like there's naturally talented coaches, and then there's those that have to really work at that process as well?

SPEAKER_02 7:17

No, I don't think so. I think I think coaching you've got to work no matter what. I mean, yes, you might have experience and yes, you might have some intellect that's going to help you, but I I honestly believe that coaching is about working hard, getting the experience. I think you you've got to have a certain skill set. Yes, you've got to be able to handle certain things, and yes, you've got to understand the game, but no one's born a lawyer. No one's born a doctor. You've all learned at some stage. Now, some might have a little bit more ability to learn, but I think that talent is is more about the ability to learn or the ability to absorb or the ability to have perseverance. So, yeah, as I said, no one's born a doctor, no one's born a born a lawyer. You you've got to learn.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

Talent is the ability to learn. Love that. Love that, Coops. That's that's awesome. There you go. Yeah, I'll I'll write that one down and and put it in the end. No, I mate, it's it's it's a it's a real joy. It's a really interesting to see um how you've evolved getting thrown in at the deep end at professional level and then having to sort of essentially swim. But I'd love to know now what what over the last 26 years of professional coaching for you is how do you define culture?

Talent Versus Work: Why Some Players Coach Well

SPEAKER_02 8:21

Yeah, I think that's a really good question because I think I think if a team is culture, and I mean look, there's so many people you they use people use different words, culture, environment. I I've even heard vibe being used, you know, the vibe of the team. I think to me, the important thing is we coaching nowadays, coaching in France, Japan, America, New Zealand, it's uh it brings together so many ethnic groups, so many different cultures. And and it is about how do you bring that together to create, and I'll call it a rugby culture, because you can't have yes, I'm coaching in Japan, and the the essence of the team that I coach has to be Japanese. But the Japanese also have to understand the many different cultures within this team, you know, New Zealanders, Australians, Pacific Islanders, a Frenchman, a South African, an American. So we've all got to come together, everyone's got to come together to form what I call a rugby culture, but not losing the sight of the fact that this is a Japanese team. So, you know, I think everyone needs to be committed, aligned, and committed to agreed standards. I think that's the important thing for me when it comes to culture. Because obviously we've got a goal in mind, you know, and the team I'm coaching at the moment, second division, you know, they want to go to first division. So our goal is pretty simple. That's that's a direction. There's no emotion behind that. It's pretty simple. We want to get to first division, and and we've got to get to the playoffs to be able to achieve that. So there's our goal. So everyone needs to have a agree that that is where we want to go. So that's simple. But it's the agreed standards to me. Um, and everyone needs to be aligned to those agreed standards. Uh, and that to me is the culture. Because the standard that the standard that someone might live by through this culture or this culture, this ethnic group, whatever, they might be different. But they need we need to have standards within our team that everyone agrees to. And if we all agreed and we're aligned to them, I think that's the culture that we're looking for. Now, it might be simple, you know, the simple things like time, you know, your time frames for for training. It might be your dress standard, it might be going to the opposition changing rooms and cleaning their changing room. That's a standard. That's that's part of your culture. That's showing respect. It's showing the standards being the respect you show to others within your team. So I see culture as an as an agree everyone being aligned to to agreed standards.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

Yeah. Do you have to uh put those up or do you have to vote on those?

SPEAKER_02 11:29

How do you how you you have to have um uh you have to have discussions of what they look like. I mean, there are some really obvious things, you know, your time frames or whatever it might be, your your ability to uh to work, you know, we're going to be here at a certain time, we're gonna do this this amount of work. I mean, those are all standards that we've got to live by. So yeah, they have to be agreed upon. But no, I I I think, you know, early in the season you might put something up, but eventually we all just know what are our standards, what are we, what are our expectations? And that to me is that develops our culture because then eventually, if you start winning, your culture grows or your environment grows.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

How do you do it, Coops? Because you've you've been head coach of a lot of professional teams in a lot of different countries. Do you get that sort of wrong sometimes? Like you you don't speak French, right? But you were coaching Start Frontier. Yeah, yeah. One of the biggest teams in France. How do you get the right or have you got it wrong when you go to those sort of places around the culture?

SPEAKER_02 12:22

I I think the I think the important thing first of all is to uh is to actually understand the environment you're in. Now, when I went to when I went to Utah, the first thing I did was I just listened. I had to listen because I had to understand and find out what's going on. So I can't take take what I believe is the team's culture without actually understanding the team, the history of the team, the history of the region. For example, Utah. Utah's a classic example. It's a Mormon state. Now, I'm not Mormon, and that's a very there's there was the CEO was Mormon, the director of rugby was a Mormon bishop, the captain was Mormon. Many players in the team were were were Mormon. So I needed to understand what that's all about before I started to impart my expertise and or my knowledge to bring that group together. So, yeah, you do have to understand. I I don't think you can go there and say, hey, this is the blueprint. You need to understand the environment, the culture, the history, or whatever first. And that's when you start understanding the team.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

Have you got better at that?

Defining Culture As Agreed Standards

SPEAKER_02 13:25

Definitely got better at that. You know, I've done, as I said, I've gone, you know, I remember when I first came to Japan way back in 2008. Um, I learned a lot. I learned a lot way back then. And um and then now coming back a second time, well, I I I went to Mitsubishi in 2018 and I'd already had that experience. Now I've come back again, uh 2025, and I've gathered more experience and more understanding how how to bring that group together.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

Yeah. Is there any specific things which you've gone uh that's what I'll keep doing going forward? Or that's something I will definitely not do again?

SPEAKER_02 14:02

Well, I I I think the first thing, as I said, the first thing that I've focused on is understanding. So understanding the new and the new NEC, you know, you are at NEC, you understand what it was like then, but there's a new NEC now, you know, it's it's been a lot of time since then. So it's understanding that. I think the the the one thing that I've done to ensure I've got a good knowledge is actually building, trying to build the right leadership group as fast as I possibly can. And the leadership group isn't it's an interesting group that I just I did this in Mitsubishi, and it was a really big help for me because I think this was a really big source of understanding and growing the culture. Because you know, so what it was was Japanese, I we've got we're here, we've got Japanese workers who play for the team. We've got uh Japanese professionals who play for the team, we've got foreigners who play for the team, and we've got young Japanese uh in the team. So I have a represent in my leadership group, I have a representative of the Japanese workers, I have a representative of the Japanese professional players, I have a representative of their foreign players, and I have a representative of the young players. Now that gives me the information or gets has me a lot or gets me aligned to understand what is going on in this team. So as you well know, I mean, so you know, I meet once a week, they come to me and they say, yeah, this is happening within the workforce and and it's really an impacting on our ability to train, or such and such is having a problem here with the Japanese professionals. The wife of the of one of the foreign players is really struggling. The young players, you know, you need to talk more with the young players. So I'm getting constant knowledge of what's going on. Uh and it's it's it's the greatest thing that I've I think that I've ever done is terms of getting a connect getting connected to the team for me as a coach. And one of the big things I've seen is, as we now well know with the Japanese society, you've got Kohai Senpai, Senpai being the senior, Kohai being the junior. Having a young leadership group or or a player representing young leaders is actually growing those young players because there's a connection with me that they probably wouldn't have had. So yeah, that that's hit that's helping here considerably with the culture, and that's something that I've I've picked up, and I probably picked it up at Mitsubishi, but it took me a long time to work.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

Yeah, and that probably goes against a a lot of thinking, isn't it? Like traditionally a leadership group might be the six best players in the team. But what you're doing is that the city is a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 16:26

I I add I add to that, I had the captain and the two vice captains, but you know, we don't often talk about rugby uh at all. Because I've got tactical groups, I've got an attack group where there's I've got all those groups, we've got so I've got my leaders in those tactical groups. But this is basically purely and simply for the vibe of the team, for the environment, for the culture. And I'm not interested. I I it's they can talk to me about training if they want to, and they can talk to me about, but it's really got nothing to do with that. Come to me and said, say, we're flying to Fukuoka, we're coming back the next day, and three of the guys who are going to be playing that day actually have to front up at a promotion on a Sunday. You know, it's things like that, and then I'll get an eye an understanding of that. So it's more about environment culture and not really, really about how the team's playing.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

I love that, Coops, because I just think it's a important distinction that this is a leadership group. This is not a strategic group or a tactical group. That's that's different. I think for a lot of coaches listening to this, that that's an important differential there because you meet this group once a week just to talk about the cultural aspect of the team, the vibe of the group and things which may come up which off-field may massively impact what you do on the field, correct?

SPEAKER_02 17:36

Well, my my team in Utah, again, captain, vice captain, my team in Utah was a representative of the professionals, um, uh representative of the Christian Mormon or the Mormon group. So I had some, it was actually Paul Lusike, who's actually played for Harlequins and played for Chicago Bears. He was uh he was my my my leadership group of the of the Mormon side. And it wasn't just Mormon, it was actually the Christian side as well, you know. It was the religious side. So we, you know, again, there was connectors. I call them basically, I call them connectors. They are they, you know, they're connectors. And I and it really gives me a great understanding because look, if I get that right, if I get that right, then then I'm gonna get a lot right. You know, I'm confident I I can get the strategy right. I'm confident with the people that I've got around me and the the people that are running those strategies, the players, uh, you know, the attack group, the defense group, the contact group, the set piece group. I'm confident with those people and I'm confident with the coaches. But the biggest thing to drive all this to make it really, really work, is divide the environment, the culture, you know, the the people in those groups who keep me connected. Because it's you know, throughout a big long Japanese season, it's uh there's there's always going to be problems. We've had our problems already, you know, you know with the season. So, you know, you I've got to be closely connected to that.

SPEAKER_00 18:51

I love it, Coop. So I just love the way you talk about creating the connectors and and it's just nice to hear that you've gone and done some work when you get in there to understand the area and you've made a specific religious group because the the history of the Utah area is it's a hugely religious area. And if you were to not have a representative in that, you would be missing a huge part of that culture.

Leading Across Cultures: Japan, France, USA

SPEAKER_02 19:13

Well, I you know, I think the CEO, really nice bloke in in that. I think he he, when I first got there, I felt as though he he's strong Mormon, and I felt as though he didn't want to impart that on the team. And I wasn't about imparting it on the team, it was just actually acknowledging it within the team. Because he said, I'm not Mormon and I don't believe going there I had to do anything to demonstrate that I had anything to do with the Mormon church. But I also but I had to respect what how much of uh that was a part of our environment. So, you know, and I, you know, again, um the Paul Assike, the the um the representative there, uh he was talking about having uh prayer groups, and I said, Yeah, if you want to have a prayer group, you go ahead and do that. And I said, those who want to be involved, they'll be involved in that. And there'll be those who don't want to be involved in that. But, you know, if it's important for them, uh they're part of their life, because if they're not enjoying their rugby or their life has got an imbalance in it, and part of that balance is their religion, I've got to understand that.

SPEAKER_00 20:13

Yeah, mate, absolutely you do. And how did it go? Did what that was there a good uptake on the on the prayer groups?

SPEAKER_02 20:20

Yeah, I I think they uh they did it in their time and and they did it when it was but I think it was the the the important thing about it was it was being acknowledged and it wasn't it wasn't, you know, because sometimes I think with the religious side of it, you know, people make judgment. I wasn't there to make judgment on then their religion, it was their religion and it was part of their life. So, you know, it was not it was not throwing it onto the team, it was making sure it was recognised and making sure that it didn't become something that was uncomfortable in the team. It was just part of the team.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

I love it. I think it's powerful and it's different everywhere.

SPEAKER_02 20:55

Like, for example, do you have a religious group in Japan or is that not part of No No, we did go to the uh Shinto Shrine and uh we had to change the shrine because they hadn't won too many games over recent years. So we changed the shrine because apparently the shrine that we went to this time had good luck, but it was an hour and a half away. It worked for the first game. We won the first game, we lost the second game. So I'm thinking we might have to find another one this year and go to another one and for a bit of good luck for round three.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

Well, you might have to go every week, right? If it w if it worked the yeah. You might have to you haven't adjust your timetabling around the structure of trainings to I love it, mate. Well, and and so you have been thrown into not only professional rugby at early start, but uh across the world, mate. Who's helped you on this journey, mate? Have you have you been flying solo or do you have people as a coach that have really helped your journey and what what have you learned from them?

SPEAKER_02 21:45

Well, yeah, I I'm someone who's uh I've never really never really followed anyone as a player, as a coach, but I've always looked at people and You know, well as a player, I look I'll look at a player and say, gee, I'd like to do that part of that player's game. So I've never said, Hey, I'm gonna follow Serge Blanco. I'm gonna be Serge Blanco. But I've looked at Serge Blanco when I was playing and had the had the great opportunity to play against him my first test. And you know, he was someone I thought was just an iconic fullback. And um, but you know, I I wasn't gonna be Serge Blanco. You know, I wasn't going to be this player or that player. I was just gonna take parts with uh players and say that's yeah, I like that. I like that. So it came to coaching, pretty similar. There's two that really stand out, and I've been really fortunate. I've had some amazing coaches in my in my time. Uh, I've been really, really lucky. And and to single two out is probably a bit harsh because there'd be those I'd leave out. But uh Sir Brian Lahore, my first all-black coach. Uh, BJ was an incredible rugby player, an all-black uh captain, and he was my first coach. Uh, and we played France, and France were we were the baby blacks because the Cavaliers had been uh had been banned. So a lot of new players. BJ had that ability to stay calm, to give us the confidence. Um, and a part of that was one is we all looked at him as he's been there, done that, but it was just the way he handled himself. It's just an absolute gentleman, great bloke. Uh we just I he and to this, oh I, you know, I've always admired him actually coaching his um his grandson, Frank Lahore at the moment, over here at NEC. But BJ is someone I really looked up to, as uh someone I respected for what they'd done, but also someone who was just such a good human being. John Hart was another one that had a lot of a lot of time for John. You know, John was a, I think he was ahead of his time. He was very, very well planned, very organized. A lot of people turn about about Hardy and say he was uh, you know, anyone could have coached that Auckland side at the time. One of the things I've learned over the over the years is is talent, you know, to continually motivate talent the way he did for those years, it was quite an achievement. Because eventually, if you're winning all the time, talent gets bored. And he just had that ability to ensure that through his the way he he structured his his planning, his trainings, talent didn't get bored. Talent wanted to keep getting better. And that was his one of his skill set was he allowed, he ensured that talent didn't get bored, it just got better.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

Well, it's actually funny that you mentioned these two guys, Coots, because I can see that you actually coach in these ways. I think I couldn't picture more of a guy that's calm under pressure than yourself. So we've certainly taken that from Brian Lahore. And likewise with your planning, no one gets bored on your teams, mate. It's always goes on and on and on and goes pretty well, right?

Building Connector-Based Leadership Groups

SPEAKER_02 24:30

Yeah, who knows? That's nice of you to say that. There's other two there's there's two others that um there's two others that do stand out that I coached with. And um one was um a David Nusaphora, and a lot of time for David. Again, well planned, incredibly well planned, and and gone on to show and demonstrate that in other areas, you know, like his role with Irish rugby is now his role with um Scottish rugby. See, I I just had a lot of time for him as a person, um, but he was well planned, knew what he wanted, uh, but again, a good a really good person. And and look, if you're on the wrong side of Nussie, you knew you're on the wrong side of him, but but he was a good person, you know. Oh, he is a great person. And Gonzalo Caseda, um, with Stade France. Gonzo is again, Gonza's a little bit the John Hart. He's very intelligent coach. Um, great, great planning, humorous, very humorous guy, um, and doing a great job with doing a really good job with uh Italy at the moment. But Gonza is another guy that I've got a lot of time for. And so I'm lucky enough to coach with Nussian and lucky enough to coach with Gonza.

SPEAKER_00 25:33

When you're talking about David Newsfora there, and you talked about uh he lets you know where you stand, and you and you you said he does it in such a way that he's still a great bloke. What is that? That's an important part of coaching, isn't it, and leading is being able to tell it straight and so it lands without resentment, right?

SPEAKER_02 25:51

Yeah, it's just being uh just being honest in everything you do, and and Nussie's like that. You know, like if you did it wrong, you'd know, but you'd know in a way that wasn't no, no, he's not beliffling you or anything like that. He's trying to help you and um he's trying to direct you to to make you better. So he is clearly demonstrated with I Ireland, he's clearly demonstrating with Scotland that you know he knows what he he knows what he wants and he knows how he to go about it. And and I could see that right from the start. He he was well planned. Uh as I said, it wasn't uh it wasn't directive that do this, do that. It was, you know, hey, think about doing this and um this might work better. Let's, you know, and and the way he did it, he was he was so good at doing it and it was honest. It was always honest.

SPEAKER_00 26:32

Now, Coops, with these experiences you've had, you've talked about um four really great coaches there. Do you think your learning and most coaches' learning comes from that experience, like being around great people? Or do you think it's a do it in the classroom, learn from the books?

SPEAKER_02 26:46

Uh look, you know, you can learn from the books. You can clearly do that. There's no question about that. And I and I'll give you an I'll give you an example uh in my early days where that works and it doesn't work, you know, like well, it didn't work, but I thought it was going to work. So going, so I'll go back to that. The experience with mixing with those sort of people is totally invaluable. You know, it's it you you need to mix if you can have that ability or that opportunity to mix with those coaches, it's gonna you are going to benefit if you're prepared to listen. But then you've also got to have your own experience. You've got if you're exposed to certain situations, because experience is about getting it right and getting it wrong. You get it right, you learn from it. You get it wrong, you learn from it. So it just but here's an example um spatial awareness. I always I always like to think I'm cut uh you know, early days, cutting edge, you know, everyone's talking about space and that sort of thing. So so what I did, here's a drill. It's I do a drill and I I take players out of a position in the defense to clearly give an opportunity for the attack to see this opportunity to react to it. So I do that, and and at training it's going really well. You know, I I pull these players out, and you know, eight times out of ten, they'd go through this hole. Okay, so eight times out of ten, they go through this hole because I pulled this these players out eight times out of ten. So we go to the game and I'm thinking, God, there's space there. They're not seeing it, they're not seeing it. Then I realized the defense isn't that bad. They're not giving you space eight times out of ten. They're giving you one or two times. But I taught out, I taught the players, I'm I was thinking I'm teaching them the right way to do it. All I'm doing is teaching, and this is quite easy here. There's always going to be space. Well, there wasn't space on the field. So that was textbook. I I go to the whiteboard and I say this is a drill, this is the drill, this is the drill. But I actually hadn't put it into the context of the game where once or twice the defense was going to get it wrong or we're going to manipulate the defense. I taught the players this is pretty easy.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

What have you changed since then?

SPEAKER_02 28:42

I've I've really looked, it's like it's like setting up an attack move. I always start thinking the opposite way around. I start thinking about the defense. And uh I think, what's the defence gonna do if I do this? You know, yes, I've seen them, yes, I've analyzed them, yes, I've gone back to the last three or four games and I'm seeing this, but then I then I've also got to say, hang on, are they going to do this? So rather than say this is what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna say, what are they gonna do? And I think I can manipulate, or can I manipulate what I think they're gonna go and do? So and the what first thing I do when I um when I'm doing an attack session, the first people I ask to for feedback is the defense. Okay, what did you see? You know, tell tell the attack what you've what you felt. Because the greatest learning is gonna be the people who trying to shut you down. You know, they're gonna give you the feedback. So I operate a lot now like saying, well, what my end result is this. So what what what am I gonna look for? I have to have a look to see who's gonna shut me down and what are they gonna do.

SPEAKER_00 29:42

I love that phrase, mate. You actually ask the players how it felt rather than you just going, great, we've got eight out of ten.

SPEAKER_02 29:48

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, oh exactly. Exactly. So now, now I'll um, you know, I the the as I said, the greatest feedback is I'll and I'll say to the um, I'll say to the uh to the attack, you know, um, what'd you feel from the defence? And they might say, Oh, look, they gave us time, you know. So that is the best learning that the attack can have is feedback from the defence. And the best learning that the defence can ha can have is feedback from the attack.

SPEAKER_00 30:13

So yeah, and it's actually really good feedback for coaches too, isn't it? Because sometimes you can look at a session and go, gee, that was a messy, ugly session. But then the people out there, the players, go, actually, that was awesome. We were always stretched and we were under pressure, so it was good. And and it can be very different from your a coach's lens to someone actually performing it on the fielder's lens, right?

SPEAKER_02 30:32

Definitely. I mean, I I you know I after every training session I'll analyse the training and I'll go through it and have a look and you'll pick up stuff, but right there in the heat of the moment, I might get something straight away. And it might be that then I can turn turn to the attack leader and say, Do you want another go at this? Yeah, I do definitely need another go because you know that feedback, yeah, quite they're accurate. We went quite right there.

SPEAKER_00 30:53

Well, I want to go back because you took you said this phrase and I loved it. You said experience is about getting it right and getting it wrong. And and your reference was that's the the benefit of experience. It's not all one way. And how do you deal with that, mate? Because I think a lot of, particularly when you're starting up as a coach, you're scared of getting things wrong, right? And get defensive about stuff. But it's important that you actually have a crack, make a mistake, learn from it, go again, right? That's the art that's the art of getting better at anything you do, right? But yeah, it seems like it's more so in coaching because you're essentially trying to teach others that skill set as well. You need to be doing it yourself as a coach. Would you agree?

Honest Feedback And Planning Influences

SPEAKER_02 31:31

Yeah, you do, you do. I mean, like I um I look, there's so many things over the years that I could look back and say, um, well, for example, I don't, I'll look at doing a young coach will go and do something, and I'm thinking, it's not gonna work. It's not gonna work. And and I might give that young coach some advice that it's not gonna work. But then also, so long as it's not gonna be catastrophic, I might let that coach go out there and get it, you know, not get it wrong, but just guide him through and guide him through it, because it's easy for me to say it's not gonna work, and then I might get uh then he might turn around to me and say, Well, you never gave me a chance. Well, you know, so long as I'm talking more like training than than anything else. Yes. So I think it is important because you know, we spend so much time preparing for so little time of execution. You know, we spend hour upon hour upon hour. Like I I've before a training session, I've gone through numerous hours of getting ready for that training session, and that training session might be one hour, you know. Or the game of rugby is 80 minutes of rugby, and I've spent two weeks preparing for that 80 minutes of rugby, you know? So so you know, you do you do learn along the way through getting it right and you do learn from getting it wrong.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

I love them. I couldn't agree more. And the more you embrace it, the more enjoyable it is, eh? If you're resisting that, it's it's stressful.

SPEAKER_02 33:02

Look, look, I um, you know, it's a challenging job. You know that. It's a really, really challenging job. And but that's the exciting part about it. Because overcoming challenge is I mean, we get a we've got a job, and and and you know, I love life. I love you know the opportunity to wake up and and do something, and I I love the opportunity that my job takes me to the great highs. You know, I love that. And I know there's a low coming. That is how I handle the high and how I handle the low. I'm really good nowadays at handling the low, you know, and that's the critical part. So I um, you know, I I enjoy, I I love what I do, and and and there's so many challenges along the way. But the greatest thing about it is I do have that challenge. I love that challenge.

SPEAKER_00 33:48

I love that, mate. And it's it's mate, it's a testament to you that you are very good at dealing with those lows because you've had an absolute lifetime of it, right? Like uh from a young age, you had a pretty rough diagnosis when you're 15 years old, too. How's that? Yep. Do you want to just how that shape you uh well a a lot, I suppose.

SPEAKER_02 34:10

Yeah, yeah, as at 15 diagnosed with uh ewang sarcoma, which was a bone cancer of the first rib. Um at the time, you know, my parents were told, take him home, you know, love him, uh, you've got six months with him. And um, so and that, you know, that was gee, what am I? That was a long time ago. That was 45 years ago. And um, so and it does put things in perspective. I don't wake up every day, Jamy, and say, gee, I'm lucky to be alive. I don't, I'm not like that. But when there are challenging times, you can put things in perspective because I've been to a place that that you know a lot of people may not have been to. Everyone's everyone's got a story. No one's story is better than anyone else's story. My story just took me to a place that was a ch was challenging. But at the same time, there were so many things that uh happened post that or because of that, that I've been able to handle because of that. So um it was challenging, obviously. Two years of radio um radiotherapy and chemotherapy.

SPEAKER_00 35:08

So at 15 years of age, you got your parents got told he's got six months to live. You get hammered with radio for two years. You then go on to have a stellar playing career and play for the all blacks. Now, I've heard you quote like you had a thing, what can I do to get well now? What can I do to be an all black now? And I just I would love to just dive into the the mind shit mindset that you had there because that's a strong, resilient mindset to then come back from something as horrific as that and not only come back from it, but from actually thrive and succeed from it. How did you adjust your mindset that?

From Textbook Drills To Game Reality

SPEAKER_02 35:46

Yeah, like the the interesting thing, and I never once thought I was going to, I was never told those words he's gonna die. My parents were told that basically. So, you know, my mindset 15 naive, you didn't have internet, you didn't have all that sort of thing. So you all I was thinking of was um, okay, uh, how am I gonna get well? What do I need to do to get well? I did read a few things, and one of the things I read about was, and whether it's true or not, I don't know. But cancer, cancer cells don't like oxygen. So what I would do is I'd run. And um, because I'm thinking if I run, it's gonna hurt the cancer. Now, whether that's true or not, but you know, if your mind thinks that, it might be quite good for your mind. So it looks good for your body. Because I I am a believer that the that the psychological being uh can have a significant impact on the physiological being. And um and I've you know, I had a great experience. One of the greatest learnings that I ever had was um I used to go through, I used to go, uh I I I had intense chemotherapy early on, and then I went to a monthly treatment for about 18 months, I think it was. And that was horrendous. You know, it would I it'd be hit pretty hard, it would, it would knock me, it wouldn't it I had basically not a lot of weight, uh weight to lose, but I could lose four or five, six kilos within a matter of days just through vomiting and that for you know basically 12, 14 hours every 20 minutes. And so you'd end up, you know, pretty wrecked. Um but at the end of so what I would do was what I would do is I would train, I would I would get chemotherapy on a Monday, I would start eating on a Wednesday. Uh this is in my sixth form year. I'd start eating on a Tuesday, maybe Wednesday. Uh, I would go to first 15 training on a Thursday. Uh I wasn't in great shape, obviously, because I'd had chemotherapy on the Monday. Um then I'd play on the Saturday, and it wasn't great, but I'd be playing for the first 15, and then the next week I'd be better, obviously, because now it's two weeks behind. Then the next week I'd be better. And then then by the end of the month, I was actually pretty good because I've been running and lifting weights, you know, eating well, that sort of thing, because the treatment was well behind me. But then it all started again on the following Monday, and that would went for about 18 months or so. But I remember this one learning that I got was I'm in the hospital, it's waiting for for uh for treatment. I'd had a three and a half weeks of good training playing rugby and um feeling good. I'd had a run that morning. I'm sitting in the hospital bed and then the squeaking of a trolley happened. Soon as that trolley came around, I knew exactly what it was. It was the five or six needles that were coming. And um, as soon as I saw it, I grabbed a bucket and I was sick. And there was no drugs in me at that time. So a few days later I'm thinking, what happened there? And then I realised how powerful my mind could be. I knew what was coming and I was physically in pretty good shape, but I actually got sick. So I realized there and then that if my mind can make me sick, or my physiological being, sorry, my psychological being can make my physiological being sick, what can I do to reverse it? What can I do to actually make myself well through my mind? Now, you can't do exactly the same. I 100% guarantee you can't do the same. You can't make yourself well as quickly as you can make yourself sick, but you can do you can do so many things to make yourself well through your mental strength, through going for a run where you don't feel like going for a run, getting up and doing weights, you know, um, you know, aiming to have good sleep. Whatever you do, have the discipline through your mind to make yourself well. And I think that that benefited me a lot by doing that.

SPEAKER_00 39:16

Yeah, that's that's a powerful statement, mate, that the psychological being can have an influence on the physiological being.

SPEAKER_02 39:24

It just it's it's as simple as it's as simple as just creating habit in a way. You may not, I say there's two types of habit and both of them are hard to break, good habits and bad habits. When you've got a good habit, it's hard to break. When you've got a bad habit, it's hard to break. So through your mind, through the ability to say, I don't want to go to the I don't want to go to the gym today, I'm going to the gym today. I'm going to the gym today. I'm going for a run today. I'm just doing it, you know. So you're telling yourself, you're doing it, you're doing it, you're doing it. And after a while, you don't have to tell yourself anymore because you're just going to do it. Because it's a good habit. But if you don't do it, if you don't do it, it's a bad habit. And that's really hard to break.

SPEAKER_00 39:59

And I guess too, I heard you can stack habits on habits once you've got a habit in place, you then stack another one on top of it and just keep going, right?

SPEAKER_02 40:06

Just keep going. So yeah, so those um that time in my life probably, you know, it helps me as a coach, you know, because you know, I I as I said, I don't wake up and think, uh, you know, I'm uh you know uh you know, I'm a cancer survivor. I don't wake up thinking like that. I the moment I stopped treatment in, you know, February 1983, I didn't, I actually didn't think about cancer ever again. I had to, I had one checkup and three months later they wanted every three months. I said no, I'm good, and I didn't have a checkup again. The only time I had a checkup when I was playing for um I was playing for Auckland and my I'd made a tackle on Jock Hobbs and hurt my hurt my neck, and the same symptoms came back of I I lost when I had the cancer, I lost the feeling down my right arm, and I thought, oh, better get this check, but it was just because my neck was out, that was all. So that's the only test that I ever had.

SPEAKER_00 40:55

Yeah, and and you you still go to the gym and train just as hard today as you as you had. I've seen you I've seen you in the gym and you certainly don't muck around throwing those weights around coops.

SPEAKER_02 41:05

Uh I I well, I hadn't been able to do weights for a while because I I you know had a had a minor operation on something to fix up something from a long, long time ago, so I'm taking it easy now. Well cycle every yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:17

I do love how like it does come back like some of the stuff that happens in young rugby players' lives does come back physically later on, right?

SPEAKER_02 41:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, yeah. No, I've I've uh I've had to have a little bit of plumbing due to some radiation damage, but I'm in really good. I feel good. I I cycle every day.

unknown 41:35

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:36

It's a such a great outlook, mate, that you have around this sort of stuff. A lot a lot of people would it would really knock them around and they might not might not recover, but you are still going strong always.

SPEAKER_02 41:46

I just as I said, I've I've been lucky. I I you know I had great support, you know, those days, but um but as I said, from a coaching point of view, it does put things in perspective because you know. We are it is a challenging job. Again, when I say challenging job, it's a great job. I love it. I love what I do. But you know, there's the expectation and and I put the expectation on myself. But um when when things are when things are tough, you know, you know that you've probably been to a well, you have you've been to a darker place than that. So you've just got to find I've become very, very solution focused. And and probably from those days, you know, you don't look at the problem. You don't look at the cancer. You look at what can I do? So that's a solution-based approach. So that probably helped me through my cro uh coaching career to to not look at the not look at the loss, to look at what went wrong and what c what solutions can I can I come up with to make it better.

SPEAKER_00 42:33

It's not what happens, it's how you deal with what happens.

SPEAKER_02 42:36

Yeah, well, it's it's it's 100%. Like like Saturday after a game, when you lose, that's the hardest part of coaching. Because this you're in the changing room, and what do you say? You know, you can't erase what's just happened. So you're in a bit of a holding pattern. I see it as almost like a holding pattern. I got it. I'm not gonna say anything that's inspirational. I I don't think there's anything that's gonna inspire anyone right here and now based on how everyone's feeling. But I also don't want to say anything that's gonna make it worse. Every now and then you'll come up with something that'll that'll get us moving. But it's more I see it more as a holding pattern. Certainly a holding pattern for me. Sunday I love, because that's the start of the healing. You know, I can now I can heal. I I I've now got a chance to, you know, I I tend not to look at the game on straight after the game. Even if it's a good game, I tend not to. That's just my literally, okay. I'll get into this tomorrow and I'll I'll rest up and I'll get into it tomorrow. But when it hasn't gone well, I do like waking up and now it's the first part of the healing. And by about Monday, Tuesday, the healing's basically complete. And now I'm totally focused on another opportunity to feel that great feeling the next Saturday.

SPEAKER_00 43:45

Sunday is the start of the healing. Um and and just that measure of calmness, that gentleman nature, probably that you've adopted from Brian Law certainly comes across what I've seen you in the change room. But it's it's a lovely context, isn't it? You're not that inspired directly after a game. The emotional come down is still hanging over the team, win or losses, yeah.

Learning Through Mistakes And Pressure

SPEAKER_02 44:06

Yeah, you've just spent, you've just spent, you know, I'm not talking about me, I'm talking about everyone. We've just spent, you know, Monday, Tuesday, probably probably rest recovered on Wednesday, Thursday, final little bit of work on the Friday. We've had a bit of a chat in the morning, we've gone out there, we've done battle, and we've lost. You know? But you didn't you didn't go there to lose. You went there to win. So and you've you've done everything you can to inspire them to win. You know, you may not have got it right, but you've tried, and everyone's tried, and the captain's tried, the players have tried, you know, everyone's tried. So you words aren't going to fix that straight away.

SPEAKER_00 44:42

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 44:42

You know, you you can't heal from that. You you know, you're not gonna be, you're not gonna recover from that. You need time to recover.

SPEAKER_00 44:48

Did you have any coaches which have just going through that cancer feeling that you had before, did you have coaches that were particularly good or bad during that period for you that made it either better or worse? And and what do they do?

SPEAKER_02 44:58

Oh, you don't get on, you don't get on with everyone. You know, you you don't you you try, um, you get things wrong yourself personally.

SPEAKER_00 45:10

Well, what have you got wrong, Coops? What have you got wrong?

SPEAKER_02 45:13

Oh, look, look, what I what have I got wrong? I I I've got a lot of as I said, I think earlier on, I've I've um I've filled space particularly earlier on, you know, where where I didn't need to talk. Just just say I don't know, you know, I don't know. Um I've got selections wrong, you know. I remember I remember bringing, you know, Tom, I bring Tom Donnelly back. Um, you know, I remember there's a couple of players that I, if I look back and making decisions, I remember Hawani McDonald, very, very good, uh, multi-all-black, great player. Hawani had been playing really well. I think we were playing Canterbury. Tom had come back from shoulder reconstruction. Tom was a junior all black. He was probably the senior lock. I've I've fast tracked Tom in there, and I should never have done it. You know, Hawani, I, you know, I I should have kept Hawani playing, you know. So it was just like, I'm bringing back the so-called number one lock, but that's not good for the environment. You know, Tom hasn't been here. Hawani's been here. So that was just that was like a selection thing I did. Um, I remember Jamie McIntosh, you know, Whopper, good friend of mine. Whopper wanted to go to his sister's wedding. And um, and I I caught up with Whopper and Poe um a number of years later. And we were going to South Africa, and and I only we hadn't, we were taking four props, five props, and I didn't let uh Jamie go to his sister's wedding. And I remember apologizing to a number of years later. You know, it was because I was thinking the right thing to do, I should have just found another prop and let Jamie go to his sister's wedding because I think it was important. So, you know, I look back and think, yeah, some of those decisions now I'd I would say, no, Jamie, you're going to your sister's wedding. You know, I'd make him go. You know, that's I've changed. Well, why is that important? He was going to be the fifth prop, but not just that. I knew how important it was to him. And it was the season, the draw came out a lot earlier than we expected. We were playing the force on the 2nd of February. We normally would have started the middle of February. So they did everything they could to make sure they didn't, you know, interfere with the season. But unfortunately, the section came forward by two weeks. I thought after it, you know, a year or so later, I remember thinking about it and thinking, no, I it's more important that I understood how important it was for him. So I probably started to think more about players' lives, not just my desire for this team to win.

SPEAKER_00 47:34

That's a that's an important thing. Do you think you've evolved a lot over that? Have you gone from win focused to more people focused as you've got more experienced in your coaching?

SPEAKER_02 47:43

I think the people I think the people focus, so long as it's not, you know, so long as it's not ridiculous. You know, there are certain guidelines, you know, whether, you know, people I one player recently asked me, you know, could they go to the partner's friend's wedding? And I said, no, you can't, you know. So yeah, there's certain things you can't do. Yeah. And the player said, no, I fully accept that. I'm just asking. So but I I think if the players are happy and the environment's right, and you're making the right decision, and that's consistent with the group, because it has to be consistent, it can't be inconsistent. So if I make if I allow someone to have something under certain circumstances, the same circumstances occur. I have to allow that to happen for someone else. I do think looking after people and understanding people, you know, people before the player, then it works so long as, as I said, within within guidelines.

SPEAKER_00 48:29

How do you manage the stress and pressure of those sort of calls?

SPEAKER_02 48:31

I'm quite good at handling that stuff. Again, it's a decision that I decision that I make is not, I'm not making that. If if it's a hard decision, I'm not I'm not making it uh based on the person. I'm based on the based on what I think's right for the team with the person being considered. So, you know, if we've got agreed upon standards, agreed upon guidelines, then I will, if it meets those guidelines, if it's not well, sorry, if it's outside of those guidelines, I I don't have any problems with that. You know, it's not nice to say to someone you can't do this if they have to. Like I've got a player next week who has been out for four, four or five weeks. He's a crucial player. His wife's having a baby, and we've got a bit really important game. Now, I don't know how much training he's going to be get done, but his wife's having a baby. That's really important.

Cancer At 15: Mindset And Habit Formation

SPEAKER_00 49:19

Yeah. Well, Mudd's love that quote. What's right for the team with the person considered. There's a lot of little bit of context there, which I think is important for all coaches to remember, particularly in this game of rugby, right? Which is a little bit there is such a emotional piece to rugby, right, that you do actually have to consider the emotions are an important factor of performance off-field.

SPEAKER_02 49:40

It's huge. You know, if a player, if a player is not um uh aligned to to the thinking of the team or or or a player's not feeling good because of a decision made within the team that's um it might be an inaccurate decision by me, that player's probably not going to perform. He's not gonna perform because you know he, you know, I've got to do the right thing for the players that, as I said, that that fits in with the standards in the team. Um if it fits, I'll always I'll always make that uh player, I'll I'll always consider that player's uh situation.

SPEAKER_00 50:16

Yeah, I love him, mate. I think it's it's massive, it's refreshing to hear, and it's that you've and actually the the vulnerability to just to share that acknowledgement that might have got that one wrong is is an important skill set for a coach, right?

SPEAKER_02 50:27

Oh yeah, well I it it it is, but I mean, you know, when you're starting out, you know, like you don't realise that the probably the feel-good factor of the players and the team, the culture, the environment is such a big driving force in the end result. And, you know, all you're seeing is, you know, I've got to get this move right to find the space. Yeah, you do. But that the the player doing the training may not actually feel like training now, that milk, boo, because you've annoyed him or, you know, you've you've made a poor decision. That it affects him personally. The feel-good force. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 51:05

That's good, mate. I like that. I like that a lot. Right, I may. Well, what would you uh what sort of habit? You've talked a lot here about habits, particularly around the habits you've built up from those early resilience times through some really rough upbringing and diagnoses. What what would you say um one good simple culture habit that you you reckon a a young coach would benefit from, what would it be and and why would you?

SPEAKER_02 51:28

I think again, what a young coach is probably gonna look at talent, talent, talent. That's what they're gonna look at. They've got to get the balance between character and talent. And that's the one thing I would say for any any coach coming up because you know, you can, you know, there's that saying that talent wins matches, character wins championships. And to me, I mean, of course, to win a championship, you've got to have talent. You know, you've got to have a certain amount of talent. But character will work. Character will always work. And if you've got a bunch of workers, you've got a good chance of winning a game of rugby. So, and when I say character, you know, character's different with, you know, I I'm not, I'm not trying to play God here. I'm not saying I'm not judging people. What I'm doing is saying, you know, you know, uh uh basically, you know, is this person a good person? Is this person team focused? Is this person going to work really hard, you know, for the team? Uh, is this person going to work really hard to get themselves in the best shape possible? Um, you know, and of course, you know, again, I'm not, as I said, I'm not after Saints here. I'm just, but I'm just after people that will fit into the into the standards of the team that are going to be set. And so that's all I would clearly say to any coach, young coach, don't neglect the focus on character. Wherever you can. If you can get, if you've got a choice between someone that's got, you know, this talent and someone that's got that talent, but great character, I'd be seriously thinking about that one. If that one's care uh uh that hired talented player is a character suspect, I'd be thinking about that person.

SPEAKER_00 52:58

Love that, mate. Love that a lot. Okay, well, I guess that leads me to this question, mate. What's the belief you have about coaching? This is how we finish up, Coops, is what is one belief you have about coaching or culture that you reckon that you believe in that you reckon your peers or contemporaries would disagree with?

SPEAKER_02 53:14

What happened there, Jummy?

SPEAKER_00 53:15

Or must have missed you, mate. Just cut out. Okay. Mate, I was just gonna ask you that mate, it's got to that time where we asked sort of that last question. And the question is this, mate, what is one belief you have about culture that you believe in that you reckon your peers or contemporaries would disagree with?

SPEAKER_02 53:32

Okay. Um yeah, here here's something. And I don't think it the thing is I I don't expect to keep everyone happy in my team. And so, but I and here here's here's how I'll phrase that. The thing is, I've got 47 players in my team, and that's actually a small squad. You know, some of them have 65 over here or you know, 60s in that. Now I'm probably going to have about 30 to 32 that'll regularly be involved in the match day 23. So if I've got everyone happy in my team, I've probably got 15 players who are just happy to be here. And I don't want that. I don't want that. I want I but I want those 15 players, I want those 15 players who are not playing, I don't want them to be angry. So if everyone's happy, I think something's not quite right in my environment because everyone should want to play. You don't start on the 23rd of June and finish at the end of May and be happy that all you're doing is training and you're not playing. Yes, we have some B games to play. So I I I believe that 80, 70, 80% of my team, I'm I'm hoping they're content, and I'm hoping not so much the word happy, but content, you know, with the way things are going. And I'm hoping that the 20 or 30 percent that aren't getting involved aren't angry. Meaning that I'm communicating with them, they're okay. Yeah, they're not happy about not playing, but they're not angry. Because if they're angry, they're probably gonna affect the the culture, the environment, divide. That's so my job really is quite important to look after that 20 or 30 percent that aren't gonna get a look in. Because, as I said, if they're happy, they're just happy to be here, and that's not really what I want.

SPEAKER_00 55:24

Oh, that's good, coops. And I guess if they are angry, that's the poisonous nature of that in the changing, right?

SPEAKER_02 55:31

Yeah, yeah, and look, look, Jami, as you know, there'll be those who no matter what you do, no matter how hard you work, still don't see it for what it is. You know, you might be totally honest to say you need to work on that, or you might actually say, you're not playing because this person's playing better. Because that is a fact. You know, like a lot of coaches get worried about feedback that um they're trying to give someone feedback to, you know, but the other player might be playing better than you, you know, and he just might be delivering a higher standard. And yes, you're giving your that other player a chance to get better, but will he get there? Maybe not. But so you're delivering everything you can, and some may not quite uh understand that. And it's it's that's probably the hardest part of coaching is making sure that 20 to 30 percent aren't angry.

SPEAKER_00 56:24

No, that is a great little gold nugget for coaches there, Coops. Awesome.

SPEAKER_02 56:28

Well, I yeah, as I said, I I I probably early days, and all coaches will do it. You know, you want to have an environment that's going along really well, and preseason's easy because everyone's playing. You're you know, you're giving everyone a chance. And then you then you start getting closer to competition and you start refining your selections, and then all of a sudden, players start realizing that well, I've done three or four or five months training here. Oh, I'm not getting a look in. So that's now it starts changing. That's when it starts changing.

SPEAKER_00 56:53

And that's where the art of coaching comes in to make sure that doesn't resentment build, right?

SPEAKER_02 56:58

Yeah, it and it makes sure that you know you're spending a lot of time with those players. And yeah, you clearly you can't spend all your time with them because you've still got to make sure that the 70 to 80 percent who are effectively gonna win you the games on the weekend aren't being neglected. It's that it's you know, if you've got other coaches, they can help. But it's also I can't afford as a head coach to say, okay, my junior, junior, junior coach, you've got to look after those guys because then I'm not doing my job. I've also got to be connected with them. If I've got a leadership group that's a bunch of connectors, again, again, they'll give me feedback on this. You know, they'll say someone feels as though he's not being spoken to. Yeah, thanks for that. I really needed to know that.

Psychological Strength Driving Physical Recovery

SPEAKER_00 57:37

Man, I love it. I absolutely love it, Coop. So I think that's a it's a powerful little distinction you've made there about the context of that. And yeah, you don't want everyone happy because that, you know, you want them to be pushing and and striving. Love it.

SPEAKER_02 57:51

Yeah, you do, you do. And I think I think if you're if you're a coach coming up and you think everyone's gonna be happy, you'll be very, I doubt very much your team's gonna be happy. Uh it's just not gonna happen. They're not all gonna be happy. I mean, yeah, you might have a smaller squad that can do it, but when you've got a bigger squad, not everyone's gonna be happy. And and again, some people might be, you know, unhappy because they're in the reserves. So you've got that to consider.

SPEAKER_00 58:12

Greg Cooper, what an absolute pleasure today, mate, to chat with you on the on the podcast. If I may, at this point, I'd love to just wrap up with my final three takeaways that I've got from this conversation with you. Firstly, you said right at the beginning of this conversation, is just listen when you come into new environments. And I think that's an amazing thing for coaches just to remember, whether you're new or established, is just take time to listen about the history, the history of the region, understand it wherever you are, so you can actually be part of it. And if you're part of something, you can always then work to grow it better. So I think that phrase that you said is just listen at times is a really important skill set for a coach. Number two, I loved when you got talking today about experience is about getting it right and about getting it wrong as well. And I think that is a massive one for coaches to never fear getting things wrong, to always strive to do the best you can. But getting it wrong is just a great opportunity to learn well, to experience that feeling and to make that adjustment going on. And I think it's a really important one for coaches to know that that's what experience is all about. You want that in your players, you want your players to strive to do well, but also build resilience from those mistakes. And you certainly talked about that resilience from your own upbringing around how you did that. Which leads me to number three: the physiological being can have influence on the physiological being. Have I got that right?

SPEAKER_03 59:37

The psychological being can influence the physiological being. The mind can influence the body.

SPEAKER_00 59:43

May and I think that's an important one for us as coaches, particularly to remember the power that we have to instill great habits and help our players develop their mental resilience, confidence, all that stuff. That's part of our job as coaches. So I just think it's a great one to build on, and you certainly exemplified that in your career. Greg Cooper, what an absolute pleasure to have you on the Coaching Culture podcast today.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:09

Jamy, uh absolute pleasure to be on the podcast.